Wonderful post and pictures. Welcome to Freedom’s Zone, we are so happy to have you join us. Have a wonderful day and if we can be of help, please let any of us know.

I’m not sure how many more comments on particular posts the gist of which is “welcome to freedom’s zone” are necessary.

That’s not to say that everyone isn’t thrilled that the site has joined.

I also feel this was an eloquent and well thought out post, nicely done Esra’a.

I wonder how much of the willingness of many to accept that at the very least Islam is uniquely susceptable to forming the basis (if a misguided one) of a terrorist ideology is because of the simplicity with which it deals with complex issues and the cleansing it works the consciences of the people of certain nations.

In other words whether the true basis of the misconception is the convenience it to those who hold it.

Yes, I agree with Joel’s last comment, it is the mental convenience that such simplistic attitudes bring peace of mind, “There I got that figured out now to go on to what’s-for-dinner”.

Esra, I agree, but I will go one stronger than you. Basically Islam is MORE spiritually advanced than either Christianity or Judaism in its preparation of its members to live in a more modern society.

Secondly I will pin much of the blame on the Imams and mullahs who are excited about the game of politics. They want their share just like the politicians and the generals. The taste of power is sweet no matter what the tongue. I don’t say this is only being done by the priesthood of Islam, it is being done by nearly all of the world religions (well I don’t hear much about Buddhist monks or Hindu priests, but maybe I would if I lived in Sri Lanka or India.;-)

Lovely post ya Esra’a

Esra’a, what *is* a religion?Is it an ideal way of life as portrayed and commendd by the particular book(s)?Or is it the way of life being lived and encouraged by the priests of said religion?

Personally I think it’s somewhere in between, but the thing that many western people(especially on the center and the moderate right) are asking when they hear about moderate muslims like you is “Where are those moderate muslims?Why is a fatwah denouncing most forms of terrorism(it excluded terrorism against Israel:() a solitary voice among those who encourage it?Why are terrorists being praised and supported so vociferously?”

The answer I propose is made of three parts:

1)Media Bias- as I know as an Israeli, it is much easier for the media to portray stereotypes then complex realities, and since the stereotype of the vociferous, terrorist supporter (ME) muslim is so widely accepted, why should they try and portray the large medley of opinions that actually exist?

2)Actual reality- will you or nill you, every stereotype has a kernel of truth among the rubbish- according to my impression from Sanmonkey’s Bigpharoh’s blogs a significant part of the muslim street has been taught to hate the western world, and specifically Israel and America.Please correct me if I’m wrong.

3)Simple fear- again, correct me if I’m wrong here, but my impression is that most moderate muslims don’t speak up because they fear retaliation by the extremists and feel that either their goverment isn’t willing(or able) to defend them or the goverment itself will prosecute them.

Esra’a,

Living surrounded by tens of millions of Muslims here in Iran has really changed my whole view of Islam. I have first hand expereince of kindness and tolerance. (I know people find this hard to believe, but it *is* true…)

Despite this, their is an awful lot of hate speech that comes out of the mouths of ayatollahs, clerics, and politicians. I watched as thousands of pilgrims in Mecca used a sacred moment to chant against Israel and America. Egypt broadcast a miniseries based on the notoriously anti-Semitic Chronicles of the Elders of Zion. I see how Ramadan has become an opportunity to spread the worst kind of propoganda. The problem is not only what the Western media picks up; it is what the middle eastern media / Islamic sends out.

The hate speech exists because priorities have not moved….enough. We cannot eliminate all fear of hatred, and we cannot eliminate the ignorant from being used by others, and we cannot eliminate the spiders and bats. But if we are truly dedicated to forming networks of justice, as you can slowly but　surely, the will of the true God will be heard.

By the way, God does not need our participation. His will will become law with or without us. We need to do whatever we believe in to save our own souls. We need need it, because we have to stand in front of the mirror and look at our selves, and “God, I obeyed Your will, with whatever resources I have, to make this place I live in a better place than before I arrived.”

You do whatever your conscious sets as a priority. If it is to turn away. Then no priest, no work of art, like Hotel Rwanda, no one can stop you…from turning away. And if you truly care to made a difference, no one, no sword, no threat can oppose you.

This is a great post. MashaAllah! JazakumAllah khairan katheeran.

But I am disappointed that this site has a “Stand for Israel” button. A major factor why Muslim extremists exist, is becuase of the Israeli terrorists.

I personally believe that the situation will remain the same in the Muslim world or get worse, until the Mahdi comes, inshaAllah. The signs are clear from what the Prophet Muhammad (sallahualyhiwasalam) said that it is very close.

Mujahideen Ryder, if we want to live in peace with Israel then it’s necessary to understand them and their points of view don’t you think?

The Mahdi? Brother, I believe in the Mahdi but sitting down and waiting for him isn’t the way. We should do what we can right now. That’s how things ought to be.

AntonGarou, #1 and #3 are the real reasons.

Esra’a, what *is* a religion?Is it an ideal way of life as portrayed and commendd by the particular book(s)?Or is it the way of life being lived and encouraged by the priests of said religion?

The last thing I depend on is the priests of any religion, and in Islam those are the Imams, Mullahs, or any other types of religious leaders who are responsible for misleading their public. They are ironically the last people on earth who practice what they preach, and are the most hypocritical bunch ever. If you really want to know how badly they influence Islam, you should read The Religious Policeman [http://muttawa.blogspot.com/]

You would probably want to read the many posts in the archives that address certain issues that I think would set things clear for a lot of you who have questions to be answered about the basics of Islam.

To me, religion is a belief system in which its members follow a certain path. Kind of a vague way to put it, but this will be defined differently depending on who you ask. I don’t think there is one accepted universal definition.

But I am disappointed that this site has a “Stand for Israel” button. A major factor why Muslim extremists exist, is becuase of the Israeli terrorists.

Why call it “Muslim” exremism, then, if it’s merely politically motivated? Israel is not a religion, it’s a state. And it’s one that doesn’t threaten Islam.

Simple fear- again, correct me if I’m wrong here, but my impression is that most moderate muslims don’t speak up because they fear retaliation by the extremists and feel that either their goverment isn’t willing(or able) to defend them or the goverment itself will prosecute them.

I won’t lie. Fear keeps me from stating my opinion about this in public. You really do get into a lot of trouble, and most people don’t think the consequences are worth it.

Media Bias

We can’t expect things to act out differently until we change how biased our local medias are. If we continue portraying Jews and Israelis as monsters and beasts, why should the Israeli media portray us in a better light?

Despite this, their is an awful lot of hate speech that comes out of the mouths of ayatollahs, clerics, and politicians.

I wrote an e-mail once to my professors who wanted to know how it was like in Bahrain – what’s the public opinion, general feelings towards the Western world, etc. And I wanted so much to lie, to say that really, it’s not as bad as it looks. And while it isn’t, it’s still pretty damn bad. I wake up to the daily prayers that end in “and lastly, death to Israel, all Zionists, and Jews” and you would hear the cheers behind those creepy statements, and right away I’d lose hope. I try to ignore it by going back to sleep, or by coming here to remind myself that sane people really do exist. I used to enjoy going to mosques. It really puts me in a good mood and I love how open-minded many Muslims are there… but the imams are using the house of God… to preach hatred, and violence. It’s sickening. I get so frusterated I almost wanted to attack an Imam with a shoe once, but that would probably give others the idea that we do react with violence to anything.

But when I talk about these things and mention that other like-minded people exist all around us, a question my friend asks me is “WHERE?” And she’s right, where are we? And most importantly who is listening?

I always thought I had no business talking about this online if only a small percentage of people in the Middle East use the internet for these purposes anyways. So I felt as if I’m talking to people who already get it, and not to the ones that I should be targeting.

However it’s still a step forward. I should get used to how this feels like before taking things up to another level.

The problem is not only what the Western media picks up; it is what the middle eastern media / Islamic sends out.

But the problem is that other media outlets need to make an effort to try and understand the real issue: the medias here are selective for a reason. It makes a huge difference that we play no part in the media sphere. We lack many freedoms, what makes people think we’d at least have the freedom to express ourselves regarding religion? To think about media bias you need to think about the owners of the media outlets, and what message they do want to give the world and what messages they don’t. It’s not up to us at all. Fortunately the internet makes that difference – finally, a place where voices are heard. No restrictions, no limits, no censorship. But hardly anyone really relies on these to shape their opinions.

Millions of moderate voices continue to go unheard and ignored, and in many Arab countries they are not tolerated – not just by the government but by the collective force of the people. They grew a hateful passion for this. Muslim scholars who have preached peace and tolerance have been threatened to the point where many fled their own countries, and in fact some stopped being attracted to their own religion if that’s the kind of barbarism it seems to maintain.

Actual reality

Yes, your statement is correct. It’s what this site was made for.

But the problem is that other media outlets need to make an effort to try and understand the real issue: the medias here are selective for a reason. It makes a huge difference that we play no part in the media sphere. We lack many freedoms, what makes people think we’d at least have the freedom to express ourselves where the world would hear us?

Out of curiosity:How difficult is starting a piratical radio station?And are there any (moderate ones)active in Bahrain?Radio would get to many more people then internet, *and* would help you to be heard outside as well.I thought about it because piratical radio is state epidemic here in Israel.

We can’t expect things to act out differently until we change how biased our local medias are. If we continue portraying Jews and Israelis as monsters and beasts, why should the Israeli media portray us in a better light?

“He started!”Isn’t acceptable reason over age 6 for me.You may feel you do not have the right to expect them to portray the range of opinions among muslims correctly.But I expect it as one of their consumers.I expect them to give me as acurate a portrayal as they humanly can about things that should matter that much to our future as people.I don’t expect them to tell me all muslims love Israel, or even are tolerant of it- but I *do* expect them to tell me “Although a large percentage/most Arab muslims feel differing degrees of hate for Israel, there are other opinions, ranging from simple practical tolerance that says the Arab people have more burning problems to actual acknowledgement of Israel as a legitimate state while condemning specific policies”

The first and third paragraphs of my comment were of course quoted from Esra’a’s comment above it:)

“He started!”Isn’t acceptable reason over age 6 for me.You may feel you do not have the right to expect them to portray the range of opinions among muslims correctly.

I think it’s more than just “he started it!” It is an excuse often heard. I don’t expect them to portray us any differently, so I won’t rely on them being more “mature” about it, so to speak. It will be great if they do, though, I just don’t really see it happening anytime soon.

Out of curiosity:How difficult is starting a piratical radio station?And are there any (moderate ones)active in Bahrain?

Pretty hard, and doing so while maintaining anonymity will be even harder. It’s a really small country where everyone knows the other’s business. Getting something like this past this country’s government and religious authority will also be difficult, if not entirely impossible.

expect them to give me as acurate a portrayal as they humanly can about things that should matter that much to our future as people

Well that’s a really nice thought, but I doubt enough people really feel this way about the situation. It seems as though the media’s there to help gain support for the country by justifying its mistakes and portraying others in a dim light. I think all countries go through this.

Very good essay.

Unfortunatly it’s way too late. The general public (including Muslims) knows that Islam will be the downfall of millions of Christians, Muslims and others. They know that Islam is not only the world’s enemy but also, the Muslim’s worse enemy.

It’s kind of like back when the rich and the Christian Clergy decided that they had had enough of the Muslims invading their lands and taking over their people and converting them to Islam, so they started the crusades to drive them back.

Except that this time, the Christians and others have got to get over their liberal political correctness first. They are almost there, give it a few more months or years and a few thousand more dead Christians, and this “End of the World” that some Christians and Muslims seem to want, will start to come true.

So far the liberal, socialist, America haters have protected the Muslims and others from the growing anger and hatred of the rest of America and most [e]uropeans.

So it goes, a few million that take a religion and turn it into a Cult and brainwash millions more, starting when they are children. This has been going on for centuries.

The big problem with that is that they are determined to kill or subjugate everyone that is not a “true believer”. And that includes “moderate Muslims”.

And soon it will be time to settle it once and for all. For it to end, there has to be a clear victor and a a clear vanquished.

That will take oceans of blood.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Unfortunatly it’s way too late. The general public (including Muslims) knows that Islam will be the downfall of millions of Christians, Muslims and others.

I don’t see how Islam itself poses a threat. Right now the biggest problem in corrupt Muslim states is the political culture, not religion.

They are almost there, give it a few more months or years and a few thousand more dead Christians,

What?

Where are these Christians being attacked? And what makes you think that Muslims are free from the attack of “Christians”? It goes both ways and both have happened multiple times before. It’s not religion but rather corrupt cultures that make this possible, notice how these things happen in places like Nigeria, which is not exactly the safest and most stable place ever.

So it goes, a few million that take a religion and turn it into a Cult and brainwash millions more, starting when they are children. This has been going on for centuries.

There’s slightly over 1 billion Muslims in the world, implying that the majority are brainwashed, violent, and cult members is taking it a bit too far.

The big problem with that is that they are determined to kill or subjugate everyone that is not a “true believer”. And that includes “moderate Muslims”.

Based on my own experiences, moderates equal the silent majority. Like I said, I’ve lived in the region all my life, and to not come across terrorist supporters means that it’s hard to find and quickly label the kind of Muslims that you’re talking about. Local imams are the only ones who pose a threat to Muslims, non-Muslims, and everyone, they seem to just want violence of any kind. Sure such people exist, but you need to be careful. We live in a 5,000 channel universe where media representation is everything. Like Esther said, the problem is not mostly with Islam itself, it’s how media outlets allow Islam to be portrayed to the West. And I’m assuming this is where you got your image, which seems to say that Muslims are turning more and more into a blood-thirsty bunch, seeking to destroy Christianity and anyone else who denies true Islam, including moderates.

I’m glad to say that moderate Muslims exist and are growing in number every single day. If Islam was to perish from planet Earth, humans will find other things to kill each other over. Because life is unfair and that’s just the way it is.

Papa Ray I love what you’re spewing about us in your own blog, I just wish you would call us “young, deceived” and basically “stupid” here instead. You seem like a person who’d know everything, thanks to your “old” age. I never knew that older meant wiser, but now I know! Thanks!

There are a ton of liberal Christians who aren’t silly enough to fall for your analysis or let’s call it skewed history, mostly because they have their history right. The crusades came before the Ottoman Empire took “Christian” lands and converted people.

Islam cannot be the fall of Christendom as visible Christians have themselves to blame. Doubting evolution and writing off science in general, preaching fire ‘n brimstone theologies, manipulating their followings and prostelyzing the way they do are all turn-offs to people. Corruption and political leaders throwing the term “God” and “Christian” around as there was no sacredness about either is the fall of Christianity. There’s more politics than religion involved in this conflict, but those don’t pander to emotions the way religion does. Instead, they exploit the calls to killing infidels instead of looking into the way foreign policy affects these populations as the cause of this.

A true Christian does not rely on material wealth or live for it. A true follower of Christ puts the needs of others over himself. A Christian does not kill and wants to end suffering instead of causing it.

So please, stop tracing the world’s problems to Islam when there are clearly bigger problems that Christianity itself is facing. Saying “Islam” is the problem and is the threat to Christianity, humanity, and everything else that’s decent in this world is not only lazy but actually quite embarrassing. Much to your dismay, this religion will continue to spread. It will get bigger and bigger with each day. You can either spend the rest of your life shaking with fear and worrying or you can start getting to understand the religion better while seeking the root of the problems you like to highlight in your posts.

Lovely Post Esra’a.

and I can liken the mainstream media pictures to how the majority/if not ALL the mainstream media coverage on African countries only show the sick, the dying, the poor. If tables were turned and Africa had the power to control world media, what if all we showed about America was Jerry Springer, displaced people after Hurricane Katrina and the porn star wanting to be President sometime ago in California. Their media needs to get balanced or just cut out!

Oh but Temi, if only we were old enough to know any better. Wrinkles are signs of intellect, and we don’t have those yet, so we should start discussing these things when we’re older and not so deceived!

Sorry, but you won’t see Christians flying planes into buildings or detonating themselves to kill those they consider to be followers of the incorrect religion. The truth is that Islam and terrorism are strongly correlated. Where Islam exists, extremism follows. It is undeniable.

Islam is a threat to all non-Muslims. Not all Muslims are extremists (the large majority are not) but all Muslim societies produce extremists. The fact that “reasonable” Muslims can exist side-by-side with those who hold believes akin to those of the Ikhwan/Taliban/Hezbollah/Salafists/etc. isn’t encouraging. It is just a sign that in Islamic societies, reactionary elements always have a home (and, seemingly, an upper hand).

I used to hold out hope that the extremist elements in the Muslim community could be “reformed” out of existence. I thought that so-called “moderate Muslims” could be helped to prevail. Between the ceaseless terrorist activity, the kind of extreme rhetoric I see the Muslim media (not the Western media, the Muslim media, see MEMRI-TV below), and the prickliness of Muslims over things as dumb as Danish cartoons, I’ve pretty much lost that hope. The last year or two has been discouraging.

Link to MEMRI-TV:

http://www.memritv.org/

Excellent essay by “Gates of Vienna” concerning the Pope/Jihad controversy:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/09/that-was-not-blunder-its-just-excuse.html

Sorry, but you won’t see Christians flying planes into buildings or detonating themselves to kill those they consider to be followers of the incorrect religion. The truth is that Islam and terrorism are strongly correlated. Where Islam exists, extremism follows. It is undeniable.

No, but you will see Christians lynching Muslims in Nigeria. You will see priests raping and molesting young boys. But you insist on having a selective memory, where these horrible crimes go unnoticed, merely because it doesn’t feed your paranoia.

The biggest threat to non-Muslims AND Muslims alike is ignorance, so I suggest you stop generalizing and start looking for the real problem.

but you will see Christians lynching Muslims in Nigeria. You will see priests raping and molesting young boys.

But you won’t see these things encouraged or endorsed by the Christian religion itself. By contrast, Muslim terrorists act out of their Islamic beliefs. They act for the sake of Islam.

By the way, they’ve apparently just gunned down an elderly nun in Somalia, working at a children’s hospital, over the Pope’s speech:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060917/ts_afp/somaliaunrest_060917121503
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=763638&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1

tommy, you make one of the most common logical fallacies:”A has a strong correllation with B, therefor A causes B”.This is never true.The thing is, most muslim countries are currently dictatorships, monarchies, etc. and promote certain forms of extremism(specifically hate of the west and Israel) because it helps them turn public attention from crises closer to home and deflect criticism on them.

Now, do you define Islam as the sum of its followers or only the sum of the goverments rulling muslim countries?’cause I’m willing to bet there is a big difference there.

“you make one of the most common logical fallacies:”A has a strong correllation with B, therefor A causes B”.This is never true”

You are correct in stating that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. However, correlation is a necessary, if not sufficient, condition for causation. If there is no correlation, there can likewise be no causation. Thus your former statement “this is never true” is false. Rather, it is always true that if something causes another thing, you will find a correlation between those two things.

Certainly, we need other evidence to indicate some correlation as being causal.

I think in this case, that evidence is provided for in several ways: by the fact that most Islamic terrorists are people who are devoutly religious in every overt way (they pray regularly, follow dietary law strictly, etc.); the fact that Islamic terrorists often specifically cite the Qur’an and hadiths in justifying their actions; the fact that Islamic extremism ideology seems to be ubiquitous (rather than restricted to particular locals) through the Muslim world; by the fact that similar religiously-motivated violence is almost completely absent from other faiths such as Christianity.

I think those facts clearly indicate that Islam is causal to Islamic extremism.

What we see on the msm is the real islam of 2006. The pretty girl pictures you show are very nice and I am sure they mean it…but they have no say in the BIG WORLD OF ISLAM. These girls are like the young girls who joined the German Resistence against Hitler…good girls and noble, but they weren’t the real Germany of 1939-45.

The West sees the endless violence and hears the psychotic hysteria which passes for thought in Islam and concludes that Islam is existentially violent. How many muslims would like to kill me for saying that Islam is existentially violent?

Muslims generally cannot see the unfunny joke here, but everyone else can.

Maybe the real problem is that Islam is dying…it has failed to bring any progress to muslims(please…it is NOT someone else’s fault, it is muslims’ fault.) and it clearly is not functioning in the modern world.

What, in God’s name, will happen when the oil income to the muslim countries starts to dry up? Will muslim countries move toward being like Switzerland or Somalia?

Is Islam, itself, THE problem?

What we see on the msm is the real islam of 2006.

No, it’s the perception of Islam in 2006. Most Muslims do NOT have a voice in the MSM.

I think those facts clearly indicate that Islam is causal to Islamic extremism.

These “facts” you provide are more like baseless assumptions. Extremism exists, naturally, in all religions. You just tend to focus on Islam more than the others because it … helps you sleep at night? I don’t know, why are you confusing the perception of Islam with Islam itself? Do you know anything about the origins and evolution of Islam and how different it is now than it was many years ago?

How many muslims would like to kill me for saying that Islam is existentially violent?

Quite a lot. A lot of Muslims out there are simply disgusting for resorting to these tactics- but like I said, why not look at their cultures instead? I don’t think you know what really fuels the conflicts Islam has.

Also, can you possibly state that every devout Muslim you meet will want to blow you up for stating that the religion is violent?

Is Islam, itself, THE problem?

It’s a problem WITHIN Islam, and not Islam itself.

Maybe the real problem is that Islam is dying…

Are you kidding me? Islam is growing everyday. You just have the illusion that it’s dying because of the negative attention it receives – but Islam is growing twice as fast as it ever did.

it has failed to bring any progress to muslims

Stop blaming Islam for something it is NOT responsible for.

That said – you are, like many others, confusing political culture with religion. Stop doing that, especially if you don’t seem to have an idea of what the political structure is in the regions you speak of.

Islam in the past has achieved amazing things which, to this day, the West is taking advantage of. So don’t tell me Islam itself doesn’t achieve anything – this responsibility lies within Muslims themselves. Not Islam. And Muslims themselves don’t have the research facilities, the education required in their countries, or the tools to progress.

There’s nothing more silly than measuring how successful a religion is based on how many things they achieve. Don’t forget the many African nations who suffer from tons of civil disputes. What do you think this says about Christianity, their dominant religion? Or do you just exclude them from your theories because you never really hear about them in the media?

I live next to a really poor Indian family, they are devout Christians and their grandfather owns a small church. Do you see me saying, “oh my, Christianity really didn’t achieve anything for these people, what a terrible religion!”

No, but apparently, that’s what you’re doing. Looking at a bunch of “poor” Muslims thinking their poverty issues comes from Islam itself. That is absurd.

What do you expect to happen, for things magically to appear just as soon as you convert to Islam?!

So first you expect the impossible from a certain religion and then point at the first thing that’s easiest to blame just because your selective media coverage makes it possible for you to do so.

What, in God’s name, will happen when the oil income to the muslim countries starts to dry up?

What kind of statement is this?

You are confusing the Middle East with Islam. The Middle East doesn’t even have the most amount of Muslims in the world. Oil has nothing to do with Islam! Did you ever see a Surrah discussing “the politics of oil?”

But for the record, if you want to know how Middle Eastern countries can survive without oil – look at the UAE (more specifically, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.) And if you think that the civilians of these countries thrive on oil money, you are unbelievably mistaken. The civilians usually don’t see a penny our governments get thanks to natural resources – a lot of what is done was done by civilians from scratch, and horrid conditions within those countries exist mainly because of unfair leadership. What does Islam have to do with any of this? Nothing.

Will muslim countries move toward being like Switzerland or Somalia?

Countries with big Muslim populations don’t necessarily make them “Muslim countries.” You are thinking of specific unstable countries and not Islam itself. Tell me where Islam states “don’t progress, stay uncultured, stay barbaric, have a tyrant rule you and guess what? No civil rights for anyone! Have a nice life suckers, mwahaha!”

Fun fact: There are also over 300,000 Muslims in Switzerland, a lot of whom are extremely successful. Does that make Islam a successful religion by your definition? And, honestly, does this form of thinking seem logical to you?

Esra’a, thank you for this post. The only hope we have is to relate to each other as people and not as caricatures. The main-stream media understands only conflict, deals only in caricature, and is not remotely interested in reaching the truth about any issue. Thank you for those beautiful pictures.

Here in the UK, devout Muslims and religious Jews face many similar issues around remaining faithful in a relentlessly secular culture; for example, we both need state support for our religious schools, something which the socialists are trying to end. We are, as you say, brothers and sisters in history. We should be able to talk to each other.

Esra’a…you have invented your own Islam. This is good and more muslims should do it. Anything to get away from the Sunni tyrants and Wahhabi fascists.

In the end, the West only wants to be ‘not annoyed’ by the real Islam that we see on TV. Of course, you have the right to say the West should ‘not annoy’ the muslims, and I agree with you. I have never approved foreign armies going into muslim countries and you are morally entitled to resist them…in a moral manner.

I have actually lived and worked in the arab muslim middle east for 10 years. So my views on Islam are based on my actual observations of muslim people living under the thumb of imams (may Allah poison them all). I am not a muslim but I have great sympathy for the muslim people who are the first victims of Islam. Most of them are not able to invent their own Islam like you, so they are caught in the traps set by imams.

Your admission that many muslims would be happy to kill me for my views tells me enough for me to know that Islam is intrinsically violent…the Islam of the imams, that is. Your personal Islam would obviously be not like this.

May Allah give you 100 years to spread this Islam!!

Militanism (is that a word?), fundamentalism, extremism… These movements may be attached to a religion, but, according to many researchers who know better than I do, are not inherently religious movements.

Bassam Tibi and Karen Armstrong are among the many researchers who point to the divisions between extremism and theology/religion. Extremists can use whatever religion is available to them. It does not matter what it may be.

Tibi and Armstrong both argue that extremism is a modern phenomena related to major societal changes such as moving from an agrarian world to an urban world.

Tibi points to the unwillingness of Islamic extremists to engage in theological debate of any kind as one proof of how disconnected extremism is from the religion itself.

The fact is that Islam is the world’s dominant religion and that it is also dominant in many regions undergoing huge societal changes.

You might also want to read “The New Berlin Wall” which was published in the NYT but available here.

And Mike, I also live in an overwhelmingly Islamic country where I often hear the same kind of questioning as in this debate: “Is it our religion that causes terrorism?” It is Muslims who are asking this question.

People who do real and deep research on extremism often come to similar conclusions: It is not the result of a particular religion; it is more the result of great societal change, such as when agrarian societies become urban.

Islam is the major religion in the world and is practiced in many places where societal change is at its greatest. If you follow this argument, then it is obvious that any religion could be, and is, used as a cloak for extremism. Including, yes, Buddhism.

As Bassam Tibi (why isn’t he referred to more often???) clearly demonstrates in a number of his books, Islamic extremists are not interested in theological discussions or even particularly faithful to Islamic protocal. It is, first and foremost, a political movement.

“People who do real and deep research on extremism often come to similar conclusions: It is not the result of a particular religion; it is more the result of great societal change, such as when agrarian societies become urban.”

That doesn’t make a lot of sense. We’ve seen a disproportionate share of quite educated people involved in terrorist incidents. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were well-educated, upper-class Saudis. They were not experiencing any sort of societal transformation on a personal level. Also, we see far less virulently religious terrorism in Latin America than we do in the Muslim world. Yet, many of these countries are experiencing the societal changes you speak of. Hardly anywhere do you see extremely violent Christian groups waging war in the name of their religion in the modern world. By contrast, there are hundreds of Islamic extremists groups in the world.

The common thread is Islam. Everywhere Islam goes, extremism follows. It isn’t that most Muslims are terrorists or extremists; the vast majority are not. But the Muslim world cannot seem to shake off that fanatical minority and they seem to be everywhere.

Wait a minute… The Chinese revolution that caused tens of millions of deaths was hardly Islamic; Stalinism again tens of millions; South America has also been the home of much unsettling violence, some of it in the name of Marxism, some of it in the name of capitalism — again, not Islamic. That guy in Japan that released sarrin (sp?) gas into the subway, once again, not a Muslim.

Haiti’s continual disorder? Not Islamic. America’s “patriots” and white supremacists, not Islamic.

And those Saudis involved in 9-11? Do you think that because someone is educated and wealthy it means they are not affected by societal change? What about frigging French educated Pol Pot? It’s the wealthy who have the leisure time necessary for nursing inferiority complexes and hatreds. The poor are too busy.

Let me share a story here.
I am a manager in a construction company, in New York City. The day after the 9-11 attack (you see how much this is set in our brains- a New Yorker would say “the day after 9-11″ and NOT “9-12″) I received a phone call from a friend with a small company. His workers were mostly unskilled laborers. He wanted me to help him get permission for his men to work as volunteers in the World Trade Center. They would do anything, for as long as needed, and they would work for free.

I don’t have this kind of political connection. I could not help him. The WTC was crowded with volunteers and no more were needed. But his sincere effort touched me, in part because I had never known my friend, Fayyaz, to do anything for free, but even more because he and almost all of his workers were Pakistanis who truly wanted to show their willingness to help.

There are some exceptions going on, but I don’t think, as a whole, Islam is getting blamed for anything. Islam is not a person. Blaming Islam for terrorism is like blaming chemistry for an arson attack.

And yet, we have the very real correlations. You can say, “those are not Muslims”, but the people we are talking about say the opposite. Who is to say who is a real Muslim? Not me.

What worries me is this: It is true that there only a tiny percentage of Muslims are violent extremists, but for every 1 violent extremist, there are 100 who ACCEPT violent extremists. If this were not true, extremists would cause no fear. We all know 1 extremist cannot bend 1000 to his will. But 1 extremist and 100 who feed, protect, and support that extremist- they can control the other 899.

What is needed is counter-extremism, among Muslims. You cannot be quiet. Timidness in the face of extremism only feeds it. Do not waste time and energy convincing me that the Q’uran does not support the killing of Apostates. Do not waste time convincing me that Islam is peaceful. I do not need to be convinced. Convince the extremists. Convince the ones in masks, who blow themselves up in Iraq and Israel. Face THEM down, not me. Do this, openly, courageously, and no one will be thinking the Enemy is Islam.

This is a war, of a kind, and the biggest battle is the one that must be fought between minds, within Islam. And Non-Muslims cannot help.

Good Luck.

Ben, if the U.S and Israeli governments, with their sophisticated weapons and technology, can’t track down those extremists, don’t expect your average Muslim to find them.

The question here is HOW do you convince them? Where are they? Who are they? And whose kids are they targeting to spread their hateful message?

We try out best not to be quiet, but we will not sit back and watch the world blame Islam for something that it isn’t directly responsible for. We will refute these arguments, and we will speak out as peaceful Muslims. It is our duty to. If someone tells us “don’t say this here or there,” we’ll say it anyways. We’ll give our speech everywhere, anywhere, and as much as we can. Someone will listen, and that someone will learn Islam the way it’s supposed to be learned. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Muslim or a non-Muslim. We have no specific targets. We just want to teach Islam the way it’s supposed to be taught and understood.

Esra’a,

Sophisticated Weapons and Technology have nothing to do with this. This is not a war to be won with weapons, because extremist Islam is so blended with what you call real Islam that the only military solution is unleashing the nuclear weapons.

And tracking the extremists is easy. I am sure the average Muslim can find them, as they have no problems at all finding the average Muslim.

Many of them are quite open about their views.

Take this bunch, for example:
http://www.hizb.org.uk/

A nice bunch. Full of fire and hate, they want to have a “Caliphate”, and Islamic government which will treat all non-Muslims as nothing more than pets. In their wonderful system, neither women nor non-Muslim men would be allowed to serve as judges, in fact, non-Muslim government power would be limited to consultation only-that is, no power at all. Slavery.

These people fully support all the terrible things people like you are against. They support the death penalty for apostates! Even if one of their members never actually commits violence, you see, they set the stage, they create the will and the way.

And groups like this cannot be bombed out of existence, because they live in major cities around the world and millions of innocents would die. Nor can non-Muslims win the mind-war with them, because we infidels mean nothing to them.

Only people like you can win this.
You asked good questions- how do you convince them? I don’t know. But I know that if you fail, we are all in trouble. So if you are trying to teach non-Muslims about Islam you are wasting precious time and energy. Teach the the Hizb loons instead, then teach the thousands in Pakistan demanding the blood of the pope. Then, the rest of us will get it, by example.

Look, Esra’a, I am smart enough to know that yes, people do twist up religous books* and interpret them in any way they want, but it is impossible for a non-Muslim to convince a Muslim (or someone who thinks they are Muslim) that they’ve got it wrong. So, this is a task for Muslims, and it is for all Muslims, and I think there is some justification for complaint if this task is shirked.

Ben
*Okay, almost all religious books. It is impossible to misinterpret the Tao Te Ching as supporting violence, no matter how hard you try, no matter how bad the translation, no matter how carefully you choose which verses to read and which to ignore. Simply impossible.
It’s really an amazing thing, and makes you wonder, if God really did write a book, maybe he’d write it like that?

Esra’s, I don’t really think Ben means: Don’t use this blog as a forum. Am I right.

But Ben, extremists don’t listen to moderates. It’s not something they do. I was watching the CBS evening news with Katie Couric this morning (MBC 4?) and there were interviews with 2 evangelist leaders: one a liberal moderate and one a right winger (self-described). What did the right winger say? The middle is where the dead skunks and the dead cats are after a car hits. You can only be on one side or the other and when you are on the side of truth, like me, then there is no argument. (paraphrasing)

Man, many of us here are dead skunks I guess. Ben, Just look at how Esra’a tried her best to argue with Tridala on my post “Pope Shmope.” One day Tridala will wake up and the world will be filled with grey areas. Until then any arguments will fall on deaf ears.

I did try to invite people with extremist views over here for some discussions. Their reply was several hack attempts on the site. If you were familiar with this site when it first started out in May, you’d remember that there was no comments feature, they were one of the main reasons why.

If you talk to these people about things like the article above they will respond with anger. It’s just how they are, they’ve already made up their minds and they won’t let anyone, least of all people like me, change it. I guess I can keep trying but I’ll expect similar responses.

In other news, Muslims help rebuild damaged churches.

Good sign.

Esther,

I apologize, I did not mean to say that this blog should not be a forum. It should be whatever its owners wish it to be, and there is no harm done in the spreading of good messages.

But, my concern is this. Look at things from the eyes of a non-Muslim who knows little or nothing, trying to understand what is happening.

You see:
1) A group of people saying: “please don’t blame Islam, in true Islam there is peace and tolerance, and we don’t mean you any harm.
You also see:

2) A group of people saying: “Islam will conquer, in true Islam there is vengeance, and all you infidels will all be beheaded, burned, or both.”

Now, group 1 says group 2 is not representative of Islam. Group 2 says group 1 is not representative.

How, then, can any Muslim of group 1 (Esra’a, and so many others) hope to reach a non-Muslim who always hears BOTH groups? It does not matter how correct the message is, when the next message is “we will kill you” it cannot work. How can a non-Muslim ever be convinced of what is “true” Islam when a quarter of the population of Pakistan cannot be convinced?

Add to this problem the fact that people are far more convinced by acts instead of words. One killer screaming Allahu Akbar as he blows up in a market will undo the work of a hundred moderate speakers, teachers, and writers, sad but true.

Therefore, I believe that the true struggle is not to convince non-Muslims what the “good side” of Islam is, it is to convince the other Muslims. Once that is done, or at least a valiant and public effort made, the rest is easy. People will see, and people beleive what they see. That is why I started with the story of Fayyaz and the World Trade Center. I have SEEN things, and therefore no words, good or bad, can convince me that Islam is one thing or another thing. I know what is in the heart of about 30 Pakistanis because I have seen it, how can anyone convince me that they are bad people because they are Muslim, with mere words?

Ben

And what makes you think non-Muslims are our only targets?

This is the internet. There is no specific audience. Everyone can read this – including many Muslims who aren’t exactly like-minded. And you don’t know what we preach in our personal time, so don’t assume that this is our only method of communication. We have said similar things in mosques, schools, playgrounds, we are doing our best. I’m not sure why people complain when we don’t speak in defense of our religion, and when we do, they complain of the fact that it’s useless.

Just let us preach what’s good and leave it at that, it doesn’t matter where or when we do it. We’ll do it regardless of who our audience is.

i agree..that those pictures u included, when the good acts of muslims are not shown in the mainstream media..
but you cant deny the pictures that is shown. and it carries bigger voice as well.
When a bomb explodes, or when another head falls down as an act of terror etc, Muslim countries and the ppl didn’t protest in a scale as they did when the Pope’s remark was made..or when the cartoons were published.

the failure of majority muslims, or at least the Ulamas, of condemning those barbaric acts in the most stern and strict tone is giving the wrong message to the world.
Ulamas and Muslim countries should do more in denounccing terrorism n terrorist, if they want to portray the real peace loving muslims.

Esra’a: “The crusades came before the Ottoman Empire took “Christian” lands and converted people.” Yep, the first one was about 300 years before, but are you suggesting that the Crusades were unprovoked Christian agression? The sixth Fatimid Caliph burned literally tens of thousands of Christian churchs, including the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem (Christ’s burial place) and the Muslim Turks pretty much crushed the Christian Empire of Byzantium.

You also said, “Fear keeps me from stating my opinion about this in public. You really do get into a lot of trouble, and most people don’t think the consequences are worth it.” I’m sure you are correct, and I honestly don’t know what I’d do in that position: my courage has never been tested that way. Still… is that what you’re going to say to God one day? That you did nothing because you were afraid?

Edo River: “The hate speech exists because priorities have not moved….enough. We cannot eliminate all fear of hatred, and we cannot eliminate the ignorant from being used by others, and we cannot eliminate the spiders and bats. But if we are truly dedicated to forming networks of justice, as you can slowly but　surely, the will of the true God will be heard.” That makes sense. How much progress have you made in, say, the last 14 centuries?

Mujahideen Ryder: “But I am disappointed that this site has a “Stand for Israel” button. A major factor why Muslim extremists exist, is becuase of the Israeli terrorists.” Really? The first jihad was in 632 AD following the death of Muhammad, wasn’t it? It seems that Muslim extremists predate Israeli terrorists…

Grumpy, go back to LittleGreenFootballs. Idiots like you have no place on this site.

Well, Danial, your well-reasoned and eloquently argued position is a model of rational debate.

I do have to disagree about my not having a place on this site, though. Perhaps you should consult the Mission Statement? “While we debate controversial issues, we keep in mind that Mideast Youth is an “online cyber democracy.” We keep in mind that tolerance and mutual respect should always exist amongst us no matter how much our opinions differ.”

Hi Grumpy. Sorry for the very late reply, just saw this!

Still… is that what you’re going to say to God one day? That you did nothing because you were afraid?

I believe in little steps, especially if your aims are big. You can’t go to either extremes. I believe, in my own personal way, I am doing something. Instead of standing on top of a mountain and screaming my beliefs for all to hear (and risk getting shot,) I can perhaps start networks promoting my beliefs and then taking it onto another step by gathering like-minded individuals and starting a bigger movement targeting people who support terrorism.

Remember, you asking for moderate Muslims to be more vocal is easier said than done. Many always complain that moderate Muslims aren’t active enough, but then again, you have to think about the media’s role in this. Why weren’t the peace protests reported? Why aren’t interfaith activities in the Middle East reported? Why aren’t Muslim peace activists and their teachings about Islam given the same attention that terrorists and violent rallies are getting in the mainstream media? That’s the whole point of the last part of my article. There is a reaction from moderate and tolerant Muslims, but it’s not receiving the publicity required to make others re-consider their thoughts regarding Islam.

Many other Muslims are doing absolutely nothing about this. Fortunately, I don’t consider myself to be one of them. Sure, for now all I do is write, but my writing and the feedback it receives further inspires me to take more action. This is just the beginning.

I do have to disagree about my not having a place on this site, though.

You always have a place on this site!

Hello, admin,

I’m glad you didn’t take offense: that was a rather questionable thing for me to say. In fact, it should have been obvious that you are indeed doing what may be the most important thing of all: communicating. I’ve been following your thread about those “consequences” you mentioned, also.

Is there some obstacle to hosting Bahrain Uncensored outside the country?

Sorry for the double post: I was called away before addressing the second point, “There is a reaction from moderate and tolerant Muslims, but it’s not receiving the publicity…”

I’m sure that’s true, to an extent, and especially in the western main stream media, but… Our sources of information are not limited to the MSM, are they? I did read about the anti-Hezbollah rally in Beirut: 10,000 people, wasn’t it? The problem is not that the West isn’t getting the good news, the problem is that

1) There’s not enough of it. What percentage of offical, respected Islamic organizations condemned the Sunni suicide bombing of a Shia wedding last week?

2) The good news is in small pieces, the bad news is in big ones. The PRO-Hezbollah rally had 100,000 people, so from my viewpoint it looks like those who want peace are outnumbered 10 to 1. Aren’t moderates suppossed to be the majority? The 50% in the middle, with 25% left extremists and 25% right extremists?

Hi Grumpy,

Our sources of information are not limited to the MSM, are they?

Certainly not, but unfortunately this is what the majority relies on for their information, making it harder for us to go against the flow.

There’s not enough of it.

Because when people don’t get the reactions that they want/need, they easily give up. Fighting for this cause is very time consuming and requires a lot of energy/efforts. It has to be consistent, too. You won’t find that sort of commitment coming from the Arab world, where people would just rather unite themselves against their “enemies” and leave it at that. Also, within the Arab world, no one promotes this sort of action. In fact, it’s discouraged because of how dangerous it can be. And when people do it anyways, it’s often ignored, so they lose hope and just quit. I know many people like that, it’s saddening.

What percentage of offical, respected Islamic organizations condemned the Sunni suicide bombing of a Shia wedding last week?

I reviewed an article for this blog once about Islamic organizations emphasizing their differences. You have Sunni organizations, Shi’ite ones, Wahabi ones, etc, making it difficult for Muslims to really have a reliable organization that speaks on their behalf. There’s a big problem within Islam itself which we also have to pay close attention to. We need to target not only non-Muslims who misinterpret Islam, but also Muslims themselves who keep fighting for a dominant religious ideology (and it’s usually politically motivated thinking, it doesn’t have much to do with the fundamentals of Islam.)

Aren’t moderates suppossed to be the majority? The 50% in the middle, with 25% left extremists and 25% right extremists?

It’s very hard finding statistics about people’s mentalities in the Middle East. Many just don’t speak up. It would be unsafe to judge by how many people attended which rally. The Hezbollah rally wasn’t risky or dangerous to be in and it was a good opportunity for people to “unite” against a common enemy which Arabs love to do judging by our history. On the other hand, the moderate rally could’ve been a huge target for Hezbollah or other Shi’ite (and extreme Sunni) militants who dislike moderation. I think the fact that thousands of people risked their lives to make their voices heard speaks volumes, and is a positive step forward. I hope (but don’t expect) for more of this form of activism in the future.

Esra’a: “Because when people don’t get the reactions that they want/need, they easily give up. Fighting for this cause is very time consuming and requires a lot of energy/efforts. It has to be consistent, too. You won’t find that sort of commitment…”

Well, that’s really bad news considering we’re talking about a task that will take a minimum of five or six generations.

It is sad that we find ourselves trying to educate Western (especially American) youth when it comes to Islam and Muslims. That shouldn’t be our job, and the media is much to blame for painting this poor image in these people’s heads. It is not only the fault of inactive Muslims – but the fault of those who are too stupid or uneducated to immediately fall for propaganda without questioning its validity.

Sorry, Esra’a, but that deserves a blunt reply. The media may not provide balanced coverage on Muslim issues but they are not the cause of your “poor image.” Here are some examples of the true causes:

Mobs of men in downtown Cairo attacking and sexually assaulting random women. Happy Eid!

Three schoolgirls beheaded in Indonesia: a Ramadan “trophy.”

Does the name Nicholas Berg ring a bell?

The world trade center: twice.

Rioting and murdering around the world over stupid cartoons.

“Honor” killings.

Radio broadcasts in Beit Hanoun calling for women to come be human shields.

I’ll stop there, but we all know I could go on for days.

You say Western (especially American) youth are so “stupid or uneducated to immediately fall for propaganda…” I say what propaganda?

When the Mufti of Australia gives a sermon about “uncovered meat” is that right-wing American propaganda?

When the Grand Mufti of Egypt talks about the “true and hideous face of the blood-suckers” is that Zionist propaganda?

You recall the Ayatollah Khomeini’s fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Was that Hollywood propaganda?

If you want to know who’s giving Muslims a poor image, look to your own leaders.

Hi Grumpy,

I don’t think you really understood what I was saying.

Firstly it’s a big flaw that you rely on a minority to form an opinion about a huge population (we’re talking about over 1.4 billion people.)

To you – these actions directly represent Islam. To us – readers of the Koran and people who actually practice the faith – it is not. No matter what the mainstream media says, it is not a result of Islam. Islam is being used as an excuse and a political tool. Try to see beyond the veil.

Secondly, the misconceptions within the media does affect the overall opinion regarding Islam. Not just when it comes to Westerners (increasing fear and hatred by over-simplifying and misperceiving Muslims) but also within Muslims themselves, the feeling that there’s a war against Islam. Public opinion matters – you need to pay attention to what SHAPES that. Don’t just blame the images we are sending to you, blame the ones your media owners keep out. Try to encourage education and rely on things outside of what the media has control over. You’re responsible for forming your own opinion, why let some news editor mislead you into believing something that is far from the truth?

No one said our religious leaders are great representatives of this religion, but you need to think about selective coverage too. What you don’t hear is the voice of people like Amr Khalid, a Muslim who preaches peace and tolerance amongst Muslims and non-Muslims, even though he receives massive coverage within the Arab and Muslim world. Why don’t I see mainstream media outlets translate his work and his interpretation of 9/11 and the Danish cartoons? The reason: There are certain things that you are not exposed to because no one wants you to have conflicting opinions about this religion. It is now portrayed as an enemy, a threat against your nation. When really – we, as Arabs and Muslims, have been suffering from the very same problem that you are claiming to suffer from. 2 planes crash into a building within a day? Try the stoning of women on a daily basis for decades. Try the promotion of “wife beatings” in male-dominant socities. Try having 0 opportunities, 0 rights, and no acknowledgement of your existence for the duration of your life. Try being told that music, dancing, and laughing in public is “forbidden.” Try being forced to hide the features that God has given to you. Try having an education without completely risking your life.

All of these things exist, to some extent on another, either by law and through “traditional” mentalities, in all Arab and Muslim countries. I don’t consider them Muslims merely because they claim to be. You don’t see me accusing the many gay or paedophilic priests of doing what their “religion” told them to do – which is to rape young boys. But if the media had extensively focused on that, trust me, people will start drawing the connection. Incorrectly, but they would still do it. Through ignorance, selective coverage, and misleading analysis.

When I see young Americans preach the elimination of Islam – that is wrong, and quite frankly, a very disgusting outcome of poor media coverage. I won’t entirely blame our leaders when international reporters know the existence of moderate Muslims and have access to them, but have yet to reach out. I and many others have tried to publish a lot of work regarding this. They NEVER get published. I have read excellent and very convincing material by people, even scholars, who STILL want to be heard but are only published in small papers that not many people have access to. And even when they do get published on very rare occassions, they are being accused of being apologists, liars, people who justify terrorism, or Muslims in denial of the “true” Islam which apparently everyone (but actual Muslims) seem to be such experts on.

Just reminding you once again: I do know that a poor message is being sent about Islam from certain Muslims themselves, but no one said they were representatives of the religion. If you know how the media works, then you should keep in mind that a bigger and better message is being largely ignored. And that’s true for many issues – not just the link between Islam and terrorism.

Also: I’m not a fan of strict Muslim societies, where extremism is so much of a norm that it’s being encouraged through schools, and am NOT defending them in ANY way. I do know that corruption exists within Islam but I still stand by everything I said in the original article. I know that the majority of Muslims don’t have a voice, and to this day you will see people fighting to have a bigger and more profound voice that can reach a fair amount of individuals.

I hope you understand it gives me no pleasure to argue with someone for whom I have a large and growing respect.

“you rely on a minority to form an opinion about a huge population” Yes and no. I do not form my opinons based on the actions of a relatively small number of people of who bomb wedding and funerals, I form them based on the actions of a relatively small number of people of who are heads of state. I form them based on the actions of a relatively small number of people of who have the authority to issue fatwas that get people killed.

“why let some news editor mislead you into believing something that is far from the truth?” What news editor are you refering to? I don’t watch NBC, or ABC, or CBS, or CNN, or FOX. I’m HERE where there are bits and pieces of truth from the folks actually on the ground, and I’ll be greatly surprised if you can point to anything I have stated as fact which you can document as being “far from the truth”.

“No one said our religious leaders are great representatives of this religion…” Not true: they said it, and a billion or more believed them. How can you possibly claim that the religious leaders of Islam do not represent Islam?

“What you don’t hear is the voice of people like Amr Khalid” You mean the guy that the New York Times Magazine described as “the world’s most famous and influential Muslim televangelist”? Right: never heard of him. Just like I never heard of mideastyouth.com: I’m just some fat Westerner with a lukewarm IQ repeating back the propoganda I hear between commercials for laundry soap.

“I do know that a poor message is being sent about Islam from certain Muslims themselves, but no one said they were representatives of the religion.” By “certain Muslims” do you mean the President of Iran, for example? Being elected by a majority vote is indeed “representative.”

Esra’a, you’re trying to claim that the murderous folks giving Islam a bad name are a minorty and not representative of the religion, and that just doesn’t work when you’re talking about the leaders of your church and your nations. Violent extremism is mainstream in Islamic societies. You know that (you’ve said as much yourself) and I have no doubt at all that you regret it, but the victems regret it even more.

I think Esra’a’s point is that political culture should be seen as separate from Islam itself and Grumpy’s point is that that is not exactly possible. Islam, like other religions, is changing and becoming fused with its new political identity.

Now, I am going to quote without attribution… awhile ago I was reading about honor killings, I found that in Arab countries, Christians commit the same proportion of honor killings as their Muslim neighbors.This clearly points to a cultural reading rather than an Islamic reading. That said, honor killings are almost always reported as Islamic.

I am going to quote a past post from my own blog:

Much of the Western view of Islam would have you believe that there is a monolith of belief in the Islamic world and that that belief is antagonistic to any other religion or culture. There is no monolith. There is no one source of interpretation. There is critique (at least in Iran… I cannot speak for anywhere else.) Iranian television is filled with the critique. Iranian society is even more filled with it. There is no monolith folks. Plus, it seems to me that much of the critique has to do with culture and not religion. (Save this thought for another post…)

One question: if, according to reports in the New York Times (okay, so I cannot find the link, so sue me), the American media does a piss poor job representing the depth of religious thought and diversity in America (Sharpton vs Robertson in a religious debate comes to mind), why would you even pretend to believe that they could accurately present the debate within Islam to us?

Esther makes a good point, but not quite on the money as to my message. On a side note, thanks for the info about Christian honor killings: I had no idea and I will be researching this.

My main point is that “Violent extremism is mainstream in Islamic societies.” Also that violent extremism is mainstream among Islamic LEADERS. Now, I’d like to ask you — yes or no — do you agree?

Grumpy,

“No one said our religious leaders are great representatives of this religion…” Not true: they said it, and a billion or more believed them. How can you possibly claim that the religious leaders of Islam do not represent Islam?

What?! You’re kidding me! You’re telling me pretty much ALL Muslims consider these people true leaders of their religion?

That is such a hideous misunderstanding, sorry. This is just not true on many different levels. If it was, the world would be suffering from a lot of violence since according to you it has over a billion terrorists or people who support terrorist activities. Our “religious leaders” are nothing to be proud of and are the root cause of our corruption especially amongst the youth. Many Muslims will admit that to you, especially in the Middle East.

Self-declared leaders do not make them actual leaders, nor do “most” people believe these fools. You are taking cases like rural areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan and applying it to the rest of the Muslim world, and then you claim to support your argument with facts and current events, which don’t represent the actual faith either.

For a HUGE number of Muslims in this world, many of whom actually live outside of the Arab states, Imams and clerics are not to be relied on. In many Arab societies, that’s just a fact and many people can see through their corruption.

and that just doesn’t work when you’re talking about the leaders of your church and your nations.

What does that say about Islam? How else would you lead a religiously defined nation if you don’t claim that it’s Islam? Why do different Muslim countries function under different “Islamic” laws that fit their own needs? Do you know that a highly respected religious leader in Saudi Arabia recently noted that making money out of soccer is haram (forbidden)? Who is going to believe this? Do you honestly claim that the majority of Muslims are sheepish and stupid enough to fall for the self-declared “prophets” of today?

Also that violent extremism is mainstream among Islamic LEADERS.

The BNP claim to represent and speak for their “white” nation.

Do you believe them? Does that mean the British nation is represented by the BNP?

If we focused our coverage on just those thousands of BNP protestors, we can make the message pretty believable through the power of the media, and I bet you millions of viewers worldwide will fall for it without much questioning, and it will probably increase racism towards Brits, too. A lot of the times, this is the case with Muslims. A few dozens of people burn a flag outside a mosque and suddenly the whole world is watching, but active individuals preaching tolerance? Forget them, turn the cameras away, no one’s interested! Misleading millions of people is easy if they have no stable background or any form of proper education, which is the case in many Muslim countries. Believing it’s Islam doesn’t make it Islam. It is a personal interpretation triggered by personal events, educational and cultural background, socialization, political culture, etc.

Sorry Grumpy, but all I see is baseless generalizations here.

And Esther is right in interpreting my post – there’s a clear difference between political Islam and actual Islam and it’s very sad that people are too exposed to the wrong sources to be able to see through it. Modern Islam is forming into a tool, a joke, the furthest thing away from actual Islam as possible. If you want to understand the faith, stop watching Fox News and reading Michelle Malkin. There is much more to this religion than clowny clerics running around in short white thobes claiming to be the leaders of today’s Islam. They are laughed at by most of us – I can’t believe intelligent people like you can’t even see through the idiocy.

How do you do those cool quote boxes?

“You are taking cases like rural areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan and applying it to the rest of the Muslim world” I am? Where? I believe I referenced two Grand Muftis and the President of Iran. Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali is the most senior Muslim cleric in Australia. I suppose the Indonesian schoolgirls are rural and insignificant (except maybe to their families).

“Do you know that a highly respected religious leader in Saudi Arabia recently noted that making money out of soccer is haram (forbidden)? Who is going to believe this?”

Who will believe it? Uh, the people who respect him highly? The police who will enforce the law? The judges who will pass sentences? I don’t know if that’s actually a law or just an offhand remark, but I do recall two people were killed in Somalia for watching soccer: don’t act like these nutty edicts aren’t enforced.

“Do you honestly claim that the majority of Muslims are sheepish and stupid enough to fall for the self-declared “prophets” of today?” I wasn’t aware that anyone is claiming to be a new prophet: to whom are you referring?

As for whether I’m claiming that “the majority of Muslims are sheepish and stupid enough to fall for (them),” well… I have to admit I don’t like putting it that way. Even though you previously claimed that Westerners are “stupid or uneducated to immediately fall for propaganda.” But, yes: i guess I am. What percentage of the vote did Ahmadinejad get (a majority, obviously)?

“There is much more to this religion than clowny clerics running around in short white thobes claiming to be the leaders of today’s Islam. They are laughed at by most of us – I can’t believe intelligent people like you can’t even see through the idiocy.”

Oh, trust me: I think they’re idiots. As for most Muslims laughing at them, I just don’t believe it. For one thing, if that were true then Ahmadinejad would not have been elected, Hamas would not have won 77 out of 118 council seats in the PA, etc.

More significantly, if the majority of Muslims truly believed that these Presidents, Imans, etc. were corrupting the faith for their own personal gain… Well, wouldn’t that be perceived as a great insult to Islam?

All the world knows what happens when you insult Islam. Where are the rioters throwing firebombs at al-Hilali’s home and chanting “death to clowny clerics?”

Do I advocate that kind of violence? No, but it does happen when Islam is perceived to have been insulted. The actions of your leaders are obviously NOT perceived as contrary to or insulting to Islam, otherwise there’d be riots against them.

I am? Where? I believe I referenced two Grand Muftis and the President of Iran. Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali is the most senior Muslim cleric in Australia. I suppose the Indonesian schoolgirls are rural and insignificant (except maybe to their families).

It was an example of two very corrupt societies, but Iran is no different when it comes to bad leadership, is it? When did the president of Iran suddenly speak the words of the Koran? You are still missing Esther’s point when she brought up the confusion of political Islam and actual Islam. There is a big difference. This belief system has been, what’s the right word for this, edited? The faith is nowhere as close to where it used to be in the past. Any educated Muslim will tell you that. Go to a Muslim rally in Pakistan and find me one person who has all of his teeth still attached to his gums. Find me one person who’s actually literate.

It’s low-class people striving for attention. I’ve lived amongst such people before – there is no religious motivation whatsoever. They simply go nuts whenever they find a reason to.

Another thing you need to think about is tyranny of the minority. The majority don’t have the power to stand up against what’s wrong in our societies. Why else would corrupt leaders fear democratization? Because they’re aware of the fact that we know they’re wrong. Why are people who practice their freedoms thrown in jail? Because they know that their faults will be revealed if they allowed their population to actually fight back. Pretty much every single person I’ve met in Saudi Arabia feels this way. No one actually enjoys this lifestyle or finds it justifiable through the Koran, but you won’t see men and women protesting outside because it results in jail time, torture, exile, execution, etc. It’s not something people are willing to go through. If people were to speak up – you’d be amazed. I urge you to visit this part of the world and you will see how many like-minded individuals you will meet.

Who will believe it? Uh, the people who respect him highly? The police who will enforce the law? The judges who will pass sentences? I don’t know if that’s actually a law or just an offhand remark, but I do recall two people were killed in Somalia for watching soccer: don’t act like these nutty edicts aren’t enforced.

I blogged about that incident.

However there is no way that you can prove that this was in any form “Islamic.” A bunch of illiterate lunatics in yet another corrupt society kill 2 innocent people for being “Westernized” enough to watch soccer and suddenly that’s an act encouraged and praised by Allah? Come on, I’m sure you know better than that.

It’s like saying John Wayne Gacey must represent Christianity because he was a devout Christian who went to church every week. He loved God, he even kept saying it after he was charged for killing and raping dozens of young boys. You don’t see anyone claiming that Christianity encourages and praises the rape and death of young children.

When a Christian does it – it’s insanity. It’s criminal. When Muslims do it – it’s Islam. And then you claim that it has nothing to do with the West being more advantaged because of their modernized societies, democratic system, and more free educational and media institutions. Of course the reactions will be different, the news coverage will be different, and the perception of Christianity will not change at all, even though Gacey kept saying that God thinks he did nothing wrong, which is implying that raping young kids is a “Christian thing to do.” You see how frustrating it is to blame something so irrelevant on religion? Even when you can easily draw the connection between his actions and his religion, his religion was not blamed. But when WE the Muslims state that it’s not religion when Islamists commit such crimes, we still get blamed for current events that have nothing to do with the preachings of our faith.

Even though you previously claimed that Westerners are “stupid or uneducated to immediately fall for propaganda.”

Don’t accuse me of being “anti-Western” or generalizing an entire nation. I have nothing against the West – if I did then why would I embrace what’s commonly thought of as “Western” values? Why would I fight for it? I merely stated that the media there is obviously biased and thus misleads public opinion. The same case exists everywhere – it’s just sad that when it happens to a nation that boasts about its education but has yet to educate many of its own people. Where did I state that everyone was falling for the propaganda? If people are beginning to think like this post-9/11 but have had no problems with Islam for many years before that, then that’s falling for paranoid and exaggerated reporting, not for the actual threat.

It just doesn’t sound too convincing when you make generalizations about Islam because of the handful of clerics that you and many other Muslims dislike. It’s really baseless, I don’t see a connection at all.

What percentage of the vote did Ahmadinejad get (a majority, obviously)?

Incorrect assumption again. This traces back to education, state-owned media, lack of awareness, and political culture, as opposed to faith.

As for most Muslims laughing at them, I just don’t believe it. For one thing, if that were true then Ahmadinejad would not have been elected, Hamas would not have won 77 out of 118 council seats in the PA, etc.

Again, that has to do with politics and contemporary history. Hamas is a political force – not a religious one, no matter who tries to claim otherwise.

All the world knows what happens when you insult Islam.

Not really. The Western world is hardly “the world.” You’re not exposed to our reactions here.

I posted several documentaries of the upbringing of Muslim youth, and how it’s being incorrectly used as a representation of Islam. I will never expect such studies to be fed to a public that’s being trained to act on paranoia, though. These are the sorts of things that you’d have to fish for.

Trust me, if over 1 billion people were who you accuse them of being, you will not be sitting here today, and neither will I, for that matter. Fortunately for both of us, this is not the case.

The actions of your leaders are obviously NOT perceived as contrary to or insulting to Islam, otherwise there’d be riots against them.

Not if you want to stay alive with your head still attached to your body.

Oh, and you blockquote using “blockquote” (your text here) “/blockquote” and replacing the quotation marks with < in the beginning and > at the end. Make sure you close your tags.

Wow. This is fun. Grumpy, I just wanted to respond to your comment:

Oh, trust me: I think they’re idiots. As for most Muslims laughing at them, I just don’t believe it. For one thing, if that were true then Ahmadinejad would not have been elected, Hamas would not have won 77 out of 118 council seats in the PA, etc.

I can speak about two things: laughing and the election of Ahmadinejad.

1. In Iran, people laugh at the mullahs all the time. It seems that the more devout a person is here, the less likely they are to trust their religious leaders. That said, many Iranians love their religion. They are like American Catholics who hate their priests and love their religion.

2. Ahmadinejad’s campaign was political, not religious. He campaigned against corruption. Iranians are sick to death of corruption. That’s why people voted for him. Every candidate in Iran’s presidential elections will be a supporter of political Islam. If one is not s/he will not be approved to run. Presidential elections in Iran provide no insight into how people feel about religious politics.

It may, however, interest you to know that Iranians were dead set against electing another mullah. That worked in Ahmadinejad’s favor.

He had wide support from the Basigi in the first elections: this gave him the votes he needed to make it into the second election. The last presidential elections in Iran were not wildly popular: Reformists called for a boycott, then changed their minds, then changed their minds again. People were disillusioned with Khatami’s government and decided to sit at home. Government employees (a lot), students, soldiers all have to vote. They must show up to the polls.

Okay, so do I have this right?

1) The political leaders of Islamic nations are practicing political Islam not actual Islam (I suspect God will have some sharp words for them about that, one day),

2) Even the senior clerics are practicing political Islam not actual Islam (I suspect God’s pretty displeased with them, too),

3) A huge number (enough to fuel at least two wars) of Muslims are illiterate lunatics who will burn, torture, and murder in the belief that they’re practicing actual Islam when in fact their zealotry is being exploited by political Islam (hopefully God will forgive them, as they were misled), and

4) Intelligent Muslims sit back and laugh at their religious leaders while those leaders distort the true message of Islam, deliberately preaching falsehoods to your children in order to raise unquestioning fanatics.

What does actual – not political – Islam say about those who twist it for their own ends, especially when it gets Muslims killed?

Grumpy,

3) A huge number (enough to fuel at least two wars) of Muslims are illiterate lunatics who will burn, torture, and murder in the belief that they’re practicing actual Islam when in fact their zealotry is being exploited by political Islam (hopefully God will forgive them, as they were misled),…

First I have to say that I do not agree with Esra’a that illiteracy is the cause of Islamism. I think that many Islamists are in fact incredibly literate and priviledged and that they use the illiteracy and frustration of others as fuel for their cause.

I do not equate illiteracy with Islamism at all. People in this part of the world have way too much time on their hands. They do not work enough.

In addition, what I do see happening (wait, I am not alone: read Bassam Tibi and Karen Armstrong) is the upheaval of moving from an agrarian or nomadic or tribal culture to an urban culture. And I see it happening on a global scale rather than on a local scale and with global coverage rather than local coverage. Has there ever been a society that has made this transition gracefully? If there has, point it out to me. I just want to know.

I think you are right to be concerned about this transition, but not right when you blame it on Islam itself. Islam could be anything, as is proven by the increase in fundamentalist hinduism…

Oh, and another thing, even Iranian tv features mullahs and philosophers and theologists who question the way that Islam is going. What makes you think there is a single voice?

That said (I feel like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof: on the one hand, on the other hand…) I fear the universalism of both Christianity and Islam: the idea that everyone should be a part of these religions is, admit it, scary.

When I read the Koran, one of the passages that really got to me was (I am wildly paraphrasing) Mohamad’s or God’s question: “Why do you keep killing each other? Haven’t you been paying attention to anything I’ve said?”

First I have to say that I do not agree with Esra’a that illiteracy is the cause of Islamism.

Well, I did not state that it’s the cause of Islamism, but rather it’s one of the major factors within it. You can very well be perfectly literate yet illiterate when it comes to reading the Koran. It is not a novel – it is an extremely complex book to understand with language that hardly anyone uses anymore, especially in writing.

I do not equate illiteracy with Islamism at all.

It’s not just having too much time on their hands. Yes the socio-economic status plays a role as it does in any other society where things like “immigration” are blamed instead of an entire faith, but what does not having anything to do eventually lead to? Poverty, and what does poverty lead to in our societies? Lack of education, or at least the lack of education in the right direction.

Based on my personal experiences, people who support Islamism and praise Islamist ideologies are people who are either grossly misinformed thanks to having no formal education or have been influenced by local clerics and imams. Many children are sent to mosques at a young age to listen to hadiths, khutabs (speeches,) and children easily fall for that kind of material. An Islamist mindset is something you grow up with in many cases, not just something you come across at an old age. That’s why our societies are corrupt – no one’s focusing on the youth and how important their socialization is. If you want to decrease corruption, you target the youth, and you get them as far away from those imams as possible and into fair school systems.

people who support Islamism and praise Islamist ideologies are people who are either grossly misinformed thanks to having no formal education or have been influenced by local clerics and imams.

I don’t think there’s any question about that, which amounts to “brainwashing,” really. I have to ask, though, why do you keep talking about “local clerics” when the message is thoroughly institutionalized? Is Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman, Pakistan’s National Assembly Opposition Leader a “local cleric”?

About the blockquotes: it never occurred to me to try putting HTML code into a form field. Unless you have a really selective filter parsing the form input then that’s a giant security hole…

Oh, and about this nonsense:

It’s like saying John Wayne Gacey must represent Christianity because he was a devout Christian who went to church every week. (snip) You don’t see anyone claiming that Christianity encourages and praises the rape and death of young children.

Christianity wasn’t blamed because he didn’t have the Council of Bishops calling him a hero and encouraging more people to do similar things, unlike, say Sheikh Hamed Al-Bitawi, Head of the Council of Sages of Religion of Palestine: “…Jihad becomes a personal obligation on every Moslem man and woman…”

Christianity wasn’t blamed because he didn’t have the Council of Bishops calling him a hero

Over-simplification. I admitted to having loons “practicing” my religion – that does not mean they speak for everyone, nor do they actually represent Islam, and like Esther already said, many Muslims are aware of this corruption. Tyrany sometimes makes it difficult for moderates to speak up, however. It’s not as easy as you think it is – I already talked about the many consequences that come along with expressing such opinions in public.

Gacey still stands as a good example, in my opinion. If we wanted to paint this as a Christian act – it will work. Also, no Sheikh or Imam has to praise the work of a Muslim for him to be considered a terrorist – you just jump onto that conclusion anyways.

I have to ask, though, why do you keep talking about “local clerics”

Because I have first-hand experiences with local clerics, and that’s where I draw a lot of my conclusions from. If all you rely on is how outside reporters paint the image of a typical Sheikh in this region – that’s different.

There are hundreds of millions of Sheikhs in Islam, yet I bet you can’t name more than maybe a 100. That should say something. Sure, there are corrupt Imams and Sheikhs and clerics and all other forms of Muslim leaders, just like there are corrupt religious leaders within other belief systems. The media tends to zoom in on our issues before looking at their own problems first. All media outlets – I’m not blaming right-wing American propganda like you claim, in fact we have more issues with our media outlets than you do with selective coverage (which is a huge problem in the States and is especially applicable in terms of coverage concerning Islam.)

Also, do you know what Jihad means? In the Koran it’s not specific to war, it is a broad term used to explain the fact that you need to sacrifice things for your religion, such as sleep. If I wake up at 4 in the morning to pray, that’s jihad. Flying a plane into a building for no apparent reason, however, is not Jihad. Islam doesn’t benefit from it. It’s an irrational act of pure evil, not Islam. I cannot stress this enough.

You just absolutely refuse to get my point, don’t you?

no Sheikh or Imam has to praise the work of a Muslim for him to be considered a terrorist

I didn’t say they did, I said there are high ranking Sheikhs and Imams praising the work of Muslim terrorists.

If all you rely on is how outside reporters paint the image of a typical Sheikh in this region

I don’t and I’ve said it repeatedly: I quote their own words.

Now, very seriously, do you have a filter parsing the form input to prevent hacking?

You are beginning to get out of hand. Change your tone in order to maintain this discussion by respecting my views. Otherwise, save it, okay? Stop implying that I’m “stupid” and that I really don’t “get it” when your arguments are mangled enough as it is.

high ranking Sheikhs and Imams

And who defines them as high ranking? You? How do you measure their popularity? Can you find me a Sheikh that 99% of any nation follow? Because anything other than that won’t be “high ranking” by my definition. You mention Sheikhs most Muslims probably have never heard of.

I quote their own words.

You find those words through selective coverage of mass media. Furthermore you do not understand the basic concept behind the word “Jihad,” and thus immediately associate the word with war, terror, bloodshed. You took that quote and arrived to your own conclusion.

Well, Esra’a I guess you win because by your definition of 99% of the nation as followers I doubt there’s anyone anywhere that counts as high ranking. I really would have thought the Grand Muftis of Egypt and Australia carried some weight, though.

You find those words through selective coverage of mass media.

So? If the quote is accurate then it doesn’t matter if the coverage was selective: the man’s words were still the man’s words.

Last point, and then I’m done with this thread since I’m all out of hand.

Stop implying that I’m “stupid”

I did not imply that you are stupid. You, however, stated flat out that Western (especially American) youth are so “stupid or uneducated to immediately fall for propaganda…”

Who insulted whom?

I apologize if I have offended you, but I still think it’s because of a misunderstanding. We both know the case of the youth tends to be much worse in Middle Eastern societies, but the whole “war on terrorism” and its very selective and unfair coverage does wonders to public opinion. It was not an insult, and I allowed personal experiences to shape that opinion which read more like a generalization and admittedly that’s wrong. I should be more careful with my wording next time.

So? If the quote is accurate then it doesn’t matter if the coverage was selective: the man’s words were still the man’s words.

And if it’s taken out of context? What if he followed that statement with something less worrying? It happens a lot, mostly in the Koran – you will read a sentence and then the following sentence is what actually clarifies what the first sentence meant. I witness a lot of selective coverage from the American media and tons of American scholars have studied this. I will write more about this in another post when I have enough material to support my arguments.

The guy’s probably an asshole and I’m not defending him or claiming that he never said that, but you can’t just look at a handful of lunatics and say “this is the train of thought that 1.4 billion Muslims follow.” So a bearded guy stands in front of a camera and declares a Jihad or justifies terrorism, yeah that’s something to worry about. But that’s not my Islam, even though I don’t blame you for thinking that it is.

Esra,

Again, good post, but I think you’re missing a very important point here. I assume you’ve read the Quran so maybe what I’m telling you is redundant and although you may be a peaceful, loving, caring person, Islam is still a religion predicated on violence. From a warrior prophet to promises of a bounty of virgins in heaven the foundations of the religion are violent and it is still resonating today. Many Islams who have left Islam, including my brother who I managed to ‘unconvert’ if you call it that will tell you that Muslims were/are the first victim of Islam and now the rest of the world is suffering under the teachings of this diabolical paedophile warrior. Allow me to again just quote a few passages from the holy book of Islam to illustrate my point very easily….

“Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad, Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad, Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.”

Wow…now I know where conscription comes from

Moving on…

“Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Good god…or should I saw bad god…there are so many things wrong with this last statement.

“Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”

So now I see that this hate is institutionalized from Mohammed himself. It is the job of a good Muslim to hate jews. No wonder Hitler made several comments admiring the way Islam rules its followers…

“O believers, do not hold Jews and Christians as your allies. They are allies of one another; and anyone who makes them his friends is one of them.”

Ok…good to know that Mohammed doesn’t want us to be friends. I guess it’s lucky for me that most of my friends have either left Islam or just don’t care about it anymore

I’ll leave you with one of my favourties…

“Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Is it any wonder why Islam is churning out terrorists like Mcdonalds does hamburgers. The West’s patience will run thin eventually and we’ll all be in trouble. I just hope that more of us come to our senses and leave this awful faith before such a time occurs….

“Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”

OMG

I’m a firm believer that all religions in principle are righteous and serve human beings in being humane, but what is this?

Can a muslim please explain…. Is it taken outta context? Is it like a separate story in history and not being referred to anymore because we live now and not then?

This gives me the chills if I don’t know the true meaning of it seen in light of today, here and now….

Tsedek, where in the world did you get that quote from? It’s a direct mistranslation. There are Jews on this site who are familiar with the Koran and can tell you that they read no such thing either.

Please don’t trust these sources. Islam, and the Koran, say or even imply no such thing. Just because a Muslim says it, does not mean it’s in the Koran or is within Islam.

I assure you, that is incorrect, in every single way. So don’t worry!

The poster above my comment wrote it….

That’s why I asked.

Thanks for your speedy reply

Ohh sorry… this thread is so old that I don’t remember its details.

excellent debate

Your personal Islam sounds nice enough. Why is this version of Islam not preached by the leading imams? As for tolerance, are you willing in Bahrain to campaign for the establishment of Christian churches in Arabia for the million or so Christians who work there? Real Islam is what we see in Arabia, not what we see on your site.

Hmmm.. sorry, but seems like you don’t know much about the Middle East.

What’s “Arabia”?

Real Islam is what we see in Arabia, not what we see on your site.

Nope. Not at all.

I live in the Arab world. I don’t see “real Islam” the way you see it in your media, so please, don’t make any generalizations. What imams preach, that’s corruption, not Islam.

And by the way – we got over 6 churches, plus a Hindu temple, in Bahrain.

Before you blame Islam, do your research about the tolerance we do have and portray in our daily lives.

The Saudi Apostate
Please quote your ‘Quranic reference’ for those quotes. I believe these quotes are made up. Some have a phrase or two similar to what is in Quran but the rest is plain bull.

I’m fed up with people saying moderate muslims don’t speak out against islam terrorism. Heres a few sites to get you started:
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.harunyahya.com/c_against_terrorism.php
http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm

Actually you’ll find most of the sites saying islam promotes terrorism are written by american non-muslims basically saying if a muslim says he’s against terroism he/she’s lying…sheesh… what are we up against…

Regarding honor killings they are cultural not islamic, or christain or hindu..:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4522465.stm. Also there’s no honour in it – Its murder. The media seems to restrict its use to arab or muslim countries. But it occurs worldwide – Hindu women India in particular are extremely vunerable, its also in South America.

Any idea that ‘honor killing’ is islamic is pure ignorance on the part of the perpetrator & anyone muslim or not who perpetuates this myth. The islamic ruling from all traditional islamic schools of thought is that punishments are for courts, not individuals to decide. And the Quran states he that even accuses a woman without evidence is to be flogged, never to be believed again.

Only one country in the entire muslim world prevents churches being built – Saudi arabia. This is a largely tribal state dominated by an undemocratic government. Despite its claims it is not run by Sharia law. Some of its laws are even contrary to Sharia and historical and mainstream muslim thought. Reforms are creeping in. However, there are more muslims in China than in Saudi arabia, so its hardly representative of muslims anyway.

hi- very interesting thread.
Your mention of Saudi Arabia brings to mind the fact that they are largely financing and influencing the worst elements of Islam;those elements that are most base and find resonance in their tribal culture(at least the place from which their culture emanates)

hi – just rereading and rethinking- i dont know if anyone is still looking at this-however, saudi apostate is correct, tho it is hard or impossible for most to admit. The milder versions actually ignore the true essence. And prejudice of the west is not driving my thought. As a westerner I was always curious re all cultures and religions, even majoring in anthropology. I had an open mind until i watched recent events unfold, and more info poured in re the middle east primarily(the hate preached, the intolerance, andIhave been flabberghasted at the differences in basics. Of course human beings have the capacity to be good or evil, but pure islam is something i am leery of. Take it from the terrorists who actually quote the koran and hadiths. Esra’a– do you think that the amt of churches in your lands is comparable to the number of institutions belonging to islam located in the west?Huda- the land from which islam springs, saudi arabia, is like the vatican.Base tribal instincts informed the book you worship, and the ethics it espouses, from what i can see.

The milder versions actually ignore the true essence.

How many years have you spent studying the Koran?

I had an open mind until i watched recent events unfold, and more info poured in re the middle east primarily(the hate preached, the intolerance, andIhave been flabberghasted at the differences in basics.

Hold on a sec, did you get this valuable information from your mainstream media by any chance?

Take it from the terrorists who actually quote the koran and hadiths.

Where did you learn your Arabic?

i would call the nytimes mainstream, but no , they are more pc than i am-no i dont read arabic- i cant really be sure . neighbors, classmates etc who are muslim are well integrated, respected here. however, plain , straight newsstories from ap or reuters, thai press, malaysian press send us shocking stories-it takes a toll and makes one wonder from where it emanates.

Where did you get the “true essence” thing from if you have never read the Koran or can read Arabic to understand what happens in the Middle East.

Mainstream media reports only when there is something bad happens. When was the last time you heard some good news coming from the Arab world?

Why is everyone think that Muslim = Arab when only 15% of all Muslims are Arabs. Do you know only 70% of Arabs are Muslim?

Most terror attacks reported come from the Arab world. Arabs make up only 15% of all Muslims. Out of that 15% only hand full are extremists. Now your generalization and the lack of knowledge leads me to conclude that your comments are the result of the very “prejudice of the west” you denied you were part of.

How can you claim that Islam is this something when you justify your bias based on the actions of the few?

Shall I start calling you a baby killer, butcher, rapist, plunder because of what the West did and is still doing? Although only a minority is responsible for this?

Another little info, there are 1.3 billion Muslims, 70% of whom live in a democracy, in a Muslim dominated country. Although the same mainstream media always says Islam is incompatible with democracy. Facts never comply with the non-sense coming from these mainstream media.

I am also flabbergasted by Pat Robertson and KKK. I was also flabbergasted when Bushed said he is going into Iraq on a Crusade. I was flabbergasted even more when he did. Shall I start calling Christianity by all thing unholy because of the actions of these Christians?

Just because you say you are open-minded doesn’t mean you are. It’s an excuse you use to justify your actions.

actions?

actions?

So according to you I should call all Westerners murderers and baby rapists.

Have a nice day.

i never called all muslims or arabs any one thing!

Then what did you say? You agreed with a person who did so what gives?

i believe the terrorists who say the book tells them to do the things they do. Most people look at other parts of the koran, apparently.i was speculating as to why the koran seems to be such a source for the extremists.i would like to see those people who do not see the book as a literal step by step book to tell thiose others to chill and behave like them. instead many who are moderate seem to acknowledge that were they more religious they might act as the terrorists have done.

i never called all muslims or arabs any one thing!

You agreed with the person who did yet you say you didn’t. Your whole point is marred with contradiction, yet you say you didn’t do these things. Make up your mind.

i believe the terrorists who say the book tells them to do the things they do.

You are so silly, I will now base American society and the Christian world based on what the KKK say and do. Does it make any sense?

Just because a “terrorist” say he is doing what a book says doesn’t mean that’s what the book says. This goes for every religious group out there.

According to Islam, killing an innocent person is a sin, you are going to hell, suicide is a sin, you are going to hell not heaven to get your x number of virgins like many in the West think. These actions actually contradict what the Koran says.

Koran is not the source of extremism, it’s other factors such as social injustice, repressive governments and their sponsors and the hopelessness that come from it. Koran is just an excuse to validate their views to the majority, a majority who really don’t give a damn like the majority living anywhere till it hits them personally.

I will frankly admit that I have a bad attitude toward Islam. I believe the axiom, “by their fruits ye shall know them.” The fruits that I see are violence, ignorance, corruption and poverty. It seems as though Islam has degenerated into a political organization rather than the worship of God. The conflict between Sunnis and Shias seems to have its origin in a political conflict between Persia and the Ottoman Empire. Yet these groups seem to be dominating Islam. I also believe God is Omniscient. He’s smart, He is a God of order. Where is the order is Islam? Who is in charge? Obviously it is nobody and it is definitely not God. I know that not all Muslims are not terrorists, but pretty much all terrorists are Muslim. I just don’t hear the outcry from the Muslim world against this violence amongst their own people let alone against Israel and the West. I realize my exposure to Islam is very limited. I would really like to understand your world, but I don’t.

Vruggink, I am an American living in the midst of tens of millions of Muslims. No one has tried to hurt me or terrorize me. And while there are many policies I oppose and many problems I have, what I find myself wondering is why we Westerners have become so smug about ourselves. Jeez Louise, in living memory there have been genocides committed by us. We westerners (with some help from others) subjected Africans and their descendants to hundreds of years of slavery. To this day, no one knows how many were killed! As we learn more, the number keeps growing.

Yet, I would not argue that Western values are decadent or responsible. I value much of what I learned from Western culture. The fact is that our domestic accomplishments were not won fairly and squarely or through justice and goodness.

And, while I am super-duper anti-terrorism, I wonder what we have to say for ourselves and the terror that we let loose on the world? It’s time for a little self-reflection. And this is coming from someone who values her American identity beyond what you could possibly imagine.

On 4/22/07, michael davis wrote:
Esther…the problem is primarily with the imperialism that can easily be
distilled from the islamic documents and then acted upon by the islamic
imperialists. i too have lived and worked among ordinary muslims. They are
mostly interested in work and family … not imperialism.

Nevertheless the imperialism does actually exist and it is THIS which we are
countering. the ordinary muslims are mute spectators in all this because
that muteness is part and parcel of the ideology of islam. By mute, I mean
only one point of view is ever seen … the anti Western and anti semitic
and anti modern viewpoint of the imams. I know that many ordinary muslims
are NOT anti any of these three things … but they are not able to
demonstrate against the ‘imam world view’. They are mute … by force.

The imams are the problem, especially in the West. Kick THEM out and many
problems would disappear.

Allah ain’t Akbar.

Hi,

Great site, and good discussions! Good to see people can debate without getting insulting. I know my post comes a bit late, but I have only just discovered this site, so my apologies

As an Australian I believe that Sheikh Halali does not represent our Muslim population. Halali received much derision from people here, and the situation was laregly blown out of proportion by the media and some politicians. Personally I believe giving him that much attention only gave him more power – most of us had not even heard of him before that. Also, his comments about cats and unocovered meat reminded me of common mysogonistic views of not too long ago – the infamous “She deserved it,” which here had absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

Just FYI, I am not religious but have read the Koran (in English) and the Bible and think they are both lovely books. I hope forums like this help people understand that most religions have more in common with one another, and really should help everyone live in peace together.

Cosmo

gr8 post…

great post.

This is such a bogus article with nothing but a bunch of denials all the way. Notice the author, like a typical muslim, makes such statements as Koran tells us to respect Judaism or Jews admire Islam, etc. Judaism is much older than Islam, so would it not be prudent and logical for the author to say that we must respect Judiasm because Islam grew out of it? Second it would have been a naive attempt to be objective had the author said, “Many muslims admire Islam,” (instead of “many Jews admire islam”) because there aren’t any. So this article, written by a muslim, is again 1-sided, and has a tone of “Islam is bettter than any religion,’ and contains many falsehoods including “it is the fastest growing religion (forgetting that the converts in the US are poor black prisoners and of course the muslims are leaving islam in droves in Africa and the former Soviet countries).

Kim Kong you clearly miss the actual point of the article, which focuses more on terrorism than anything else, but like many other disrespectful Islamophobes, this is to be expected. Good luck with your Muslim bashing, but just know that you’re not doing anyone a favor by being this freakishly shallow.

At the very least most Muslims around the world need to be given credit for consistently having to deal with abusive bigotry and sheer ignorance. It’s seriously a fulltime job, and most of us are simply tired of it.

The idea that many Jews respect Islam is far from false. None of the Jews I know are half as hateful as you come off, and have nothing but respect towards Islam as a religion. If you know Jews that hate Islam, then that’s your personal business that I do not care about.

The fact that you imply (unsuccessfuly, I may add) that I’m trying to give off the impression that somehow Islam is the best religion in the world, you do this merely by assuming and not by actually providing any facts (i.e, quote from my post) that may remotely suggest this, and without exploring any of my other articles where I fight for the right of religious minorities in Muslim countries.

Specifically, this article came at a time where most people were associating Muslims with terrorism, constantly and incorrectly, and failing to realize that violence exists in this world regardless of any religion, and without listening to the millions of Muslim voices that are speaking out actively against terrorism in all its forms. All your other accusations are your own and are not reflected in any way by this article.

The idea that I am biased, that is purely common sense, and anyone suggesting that they are objective and never biased when forming their opinions, are frankly bad liars.

Your ignorance is apparent not because you disagree, but because you resort to a choice of words “like a typical Muslim” as opposed to factually refuting the argument without making disturbing blanket statements that only prove your lack of education and respect for anyone you disagree with.

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