Muslims not afraid of criticism
I’m thinking of having a special section in our upcoming e-zine for Muslims who are willing to argue with Muslim-bashers and those who blame all of this world’s ills on Islam (apparently that was too sensitive, not being a native of this language I didn’t know “bashing” was particularly insulting), so let’s just call them “fun people who accuse Islam of weird things,” or if we want to be extra nice, “people who constructively criticize Islam.”
I don’t think there’s any civil place on the internet to do this. Both parties just yell at each other and end up hating each other, and we managed to get a few of these discussions out of the way while maintaining respect for each other, so I think we’re up to something good. There will always be that one arrogant person who ruins the whole thing by being generally rude and disrespectful, but such comments will be deleted in order to maintain the healthy environment (and watch them whine about this being proof of our “intolerance” and lack fo respect for “freedom of speech”). This site is here only for the well-mannered, and if they want to cause a riot they’re welcome to continue posting on LGF and other paranoid weblogs.
This will exist for other religions though I doubt people will come to Mideast Youth in order to criticize Judaism as a faith because they’re not exposed to such material on the mainstream media. However there should be a section where Muslims and Israelis discuss culture and religion and we can analyze their relevance to the ongoing Palestinian conflict.
Join the Conversation
You ask for the impossible! For whatever reason, Palestine envokes the strongest emotions on all sides. As a Jew, I LOVE polite debate, but unfortinately on the internet where there is no accountiblity, that is a pipe dream.
It is so strange that conflicts that are only responsible for 0.6% of all the deaths in the middle east occupies 99% of our emotions.
Regarding Judiasm per say, since the Holocaust it has become unfashionable to blame Judiasm for all the worlds problems so now the Arab and westearn leftist press use the word “zionism”. And when it comes to zionism, there is no shortage of scape-goating and consperacy theories
Nothing is impossible to us here. If you think we don’t have what it takes to achieve the above then I urge you to sit and wait until proven wrong.
You seem to enjoy making the Palestinian issue seem a tad less significant than what it already yes. It plays a huge role in the perception of Islam and Judaism in the Middle East. A very huge role.
If you think we are going to ignore this conflict just because you do not consider it to be as important as mass media makes it look, then you are also mistaken here. We will not simply ignore this because “there’s enough news about it,” there’s a lot of propaganda revolving around that situation. Yes, the media gives it a little TOO much attention sometimes – but that doesn’t mean we should dismiss it. The conflict exists, and we will continue to document it.
This is somewhat insulting. The conditions that people live under because of that conflict is still hideous. The conflict is still grave. It’s “strange” that you look at statistics and then measure the importance of the situation through just that: a number. A percentage. What does that represent? Does it mean Palestine deserves 0 of our attention?
I don’t think you understand what this conflict means in the Arab world. It is the main reason why our youth are corrupt in many ways because they draw their opinions from that conflict alone, and we hope to help them understand this conflict better. The anti-Israel, anti-American, anti-Jewish, and pro-terrorist mentalities mostly stem from this very conflict because of our media. Do you really think that’s something worth ignoring?
Is this the only issue we focus on? No.
Is this one of the many issues we like to focus on? Yes.
It’s ridiculous that you don’t expect us to mention this conflict when the site is called Mideast Youth, especially when this is the main conflict that is misperceived by, gasp, Mideast Youth.
This is a great idea! Let’s do it!
Well, we are off to a good start
I don’t recall saying we should “ignore this conflict”, but I will re-read my comment….
…ok, I just checked. Your making it up.
[quote]
It’s “strange†that you look at statistics and then measure the importance of the situation through just that
[/quote]
Really? The idea that, as human beings who claim to care about humany, the world’s focus should be directly proportional the suffering is strange? Does tens of thousands of gang-raped girls in Sudan, or child soldiers who are forced to kill their own relatives in Congo not deserve more attention assuming every human being is created equal?
Maybe that idea is strange, I apologize.
[quote]
It’s ridiculous that you don’t expect us to mention this conflict when the site is called Mideast Youth,
[/quote]
Did I write something in invisable ink that only you can see? Because I can swear I never wrote anything like that.
I think you just demonstrated why your dream of a rational and polite internet debate is not possible. Sorry.
Incedently, if I can reply to your claims that from my one sentace:
a. I Believe we should “ignore” Palestine
b. Palestine should receive 0% attention
c. I have no understanding of the importance of this conflict
d. I expect the conflict to never be mentioned.
ummm…
a. false
b. false
c. false, but subjective
d. false
I guess I won’t be part of your wonderful jewish-arab debate
I believe the correct wording would be “you misunderstood.” But yes I’m a fan of fiction, sometimes I like to over-dramatize things and make an argument up. Thanks for pointing it out.
Hi, have you been asleep for the past week? Do you see that banner on the right hand side at the very top of this page?
Stop accusing us of not “caring” enough when we created an entire campaign specifically for this issue. Do you see a campaign about Palestine?
I don’t. But maybe you do. Can you locate it on this website for me?
You just burst my bubble and I’m in tears. I will state once again that we have had plenty of polite debates on this website, and thankfully we were lacking in people with your attitude. You seem to think that Mideast Youth’s purpose is “save the world,” but read our mission statement. This isn’t what we’re here for. What’s going on in Congo is horrible, but it is not related to the Middle East. We’ll bring attention to it and talk about it when we can, but we’re not global peace activists. We’re Middle Easterners who want to see a better future in their turbulent region. You do things within your reach, you don’t just aim to create peace on Earth. That’s not how you deal with issues, not if you’re organized and responsible. You aim for things you can actually accomplish.
I don’t think we’ll be missing much if all you’re going to do is accuse us and belittle a conflict that plays a significant role in the Middle East.
Goodbye.
I don’t know if you’ll allow room for this article, which comes from my blog, but I’m “bringing to you,” brcause I’d really like to hear your comments about it–along with comments from your visitors.
The Resurrection of Palestine
The Columbia Encyclopedia tells us that the word, “Palestine,†comes from the word “Philistine.†When the Philistines moved to the land of Canaan, they settled along the Mediterranean coast, in the area we now call the “Gaza Strip.†The Philistines were an exceptionally united people. They built five major cities, including Gaza, and created a powerful federation. As testimony to their strength, the whole region became known as “Palestine.â€
More than 3,000 years ago, a people known as “Hebrew Israelites†conquered Canaan/Palestine, and renamed the land “Israel.†As a tiny nation that worshiped One invisible God, the Hebrew society’s values and customs differed from its neighbor nations that worshiped more than 2,000 visible gods. Still, for all its uniquness,Israel survived for over 1,000 years.
Through the Hebrews, the world received the Ten Commandments, which tell men to love God and to “…love your neighbor as yourself…†(Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18). If, tomorrow, every human being suddenly began to “love†his neighbors the world over — and, therefore, refrain from doing to anyone what he would not want done to himself —the world as we have made it would instantly change. Yet, it’s hard for us to even imagine that loving world, much less imagine it materializing tomorrow! Nevertheless, if you are among the persons who say, “People will never change†or “The world will always be the same,†you’re forgetting that we can now wreak the prophesied “utter destruction†(Mal. 3:24/4:6) on our world! You’re also totally dismissing the Messiah who, we’re promised, will reign over a world thoroughly cleansed of man’s hateful doings.
Before the Hebrews had even entered Canaan/Palestine, Moses spoke of a time when God would grow weary of their continual disobedience, and they would be “…driven out [of the land] to the farthest parts under heaven…†(Deut. 30:4). Then, they would become “…an oath and an astonishment and a curse and a reproach†(Jer. 44:12), a prophecy we’ve definitely seen fulfilled! But Moses also assured the Hebrews that eventually God “…will have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you†(Deut. 30:3). After that, they will become “…a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth†(Zeph. 3:20) — a prophecy we have yet to witness!
Atheists who, with arrogant certainty, dismiss the Prophets as liars or dupes can deeply offend believers. But people who call themselves “believers,†while arrogantly annulling God’s unwelcome messages about Israel’s restoration, could be even more offensive to God. For, as Muhammad told us, “…who is more wicked than he who gives no heed to the revelations of his Lord when reminded of them?†(Adoration 32:22).
The Prophet, Isaiah, warned, “Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!†(Isa. 5:21). Muhammad explained, “They draw a line between God and His apostles, saying, ‘We believe in some but deny others.’†And Jesus cut to the quick of our problem in one sentence: “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!†(Luke 24:25).
The Hebrew Scriptures foretold ancient Israel’s eviction, and the same Scriptures promised that someday Israel would be resurrected. No where on earth does a single line of any religion’s Scripture foretell the resurrection of a nation called Palestine!
I have little doubt that truly moderate Muslims can discuss the role of radical Islam as the driving force behind more than 90% of the violence on our planet – with non-Muslims, without either resorting to bashing one faith or another.
But the qualifier is – truly moderate Muslims and open-minded non-Muslims.
Truly moderate Muslims are tolerant of all faiths, do not believe that Islam deserves special status or treatment in regard to other faiths, abhors violence in the name of Islam and openly condemns those that commit such violence, and do not support an Islamic rule over others, sharia law, or an Islamic caliphate.
Open-minded non-Muslims do not blame all Muslims for the acts of the large and growing number of non-moderate Muslims who by any rational basis must be deemed radical, intolerant, irrational, and blinded by their adherence to what can only be described as a medieval ideology. Open-minded non-Muslims also hold no malice or prejudice against moderate Muslims for the actions of their co-religionists.
A basis for beginning our discussions could be agreeing from the start that there is very likely far more that moderate Muslims and open-minded non-Muslims (as herein defined for both)can share agreement with, than disagree on; that all human beings are equal in the eyes of God; that everyone has a right to make a living for their family, to enjoy the freedom to live in peace without hindrance or control by tyrants or dictators; and that a free and open society that allows for freedom of the press, speech, expression, and practice of one’s faith – so long as it doesn’t deny or restrict the freedom of the religion of others.
Given parameters such as these to proceed from, there’s a good chance that the discussions you speak of will be fruitful. If these parameters are not the basis from which such discussion would be conducted, one would have to believe that the discussions will have little chance for success.
In my above comment, sorry about leaving off ” …, is an inviolate human right – to the following paragraph which should read:
A basis for beginning our discussions could be agreeing from the start that there is very likely far more that moderate Muslims and open-minded non-Muslims (as herein defined for both)can share agreement with, than disagree on; that all human beings are equal in the eyes of God; that everyone has a right to make a living for their family, to enjoy the freedom to live in peace without hindrance or control by tyrants or dictators; and that a free and open society that allows for freedom of the press, speech, expression, and practice of one’s faith – so long as it doesn’t deny or restrict the freedom of the religion of others, is an inviolate human right.
Richard, I think you’re taking it a bit too far with your “90%”. I agree with much of what you say however and we have never bashed any faith here, especially since this site represents a lot of different faiths. We also defend other faiths in our ME Faith project. This is why I have a lot of hope in such discussions.
Jane, thanks for the article, I’ll read it now.
Its like I am in the Twilight Zone! How did we get from my original statement to this?
I accused you of this? If I did I of course I apologize, but I am pretty sure I would never say this as I believe the bloggers here are very sensere, yourself included.
Well, I don’t think that was necessary but ok.
WHAT ACCUSATIONS?!?!?! What, where, why how? I don’t understand what I said to upset you so greatly.
All I said was that a conflict that is responsible for less than 0.4% of the casualties consumes 99% of our emotion. (which I stand by)
If you disagree with this statement, of course that is your right but I don’t understand what why you would take such terrible offense to this opinion and make such strong accusations about my character.
Truthfully, was that sentence worth turning a debate into a character attack? Do you think maybe this went too far?
If I upset you Esra, I apologize. That was not my intention, I just wanted to share my opinion. I do enjoy this blog, but as this is your blog I will leave should that be your wish.
No, this is not “my” blog. I wish people would stop saying that. None of this would be possible without the help of our writers and programmers. This continues to be a “group” project in which many opinions are represented. There are no collective opinions or ideologies here.
I don’t know why you say one thing and then go back and say, “omg I never said that! REALLY!”
You said something like “what about the people of Darfur and Congo?” and I defended our stance on these issues. Here:
If you want to be understood then state your arguments clearly for me to understand instead of claiming that I make things up. I talked about Palestine and you went on a rant about how we don’t give enough attention (or emotions) to other more important conflicts, an argument which I refuted.
Character attack? I don’t see any character attacks. If me being uncomfortable with your accusations is a “character attack” for you then you must be pretty sensitive. In no way did I insult you. I was just uncomfortable with the way you presented your argument, claiming that it’s sad and ridiculous that we pay more attention to one thing rather than the other, which in fact is not true. You were also very discouraging, claiming that it’s not possible to have a civil debate about heated issues, including Jew-Arab debates, something we successfully did in the past. If you don’t find such discussions helpful at all, no one’s begging you to join.
Esra, please, re-read my original comment. I really think you misunderstood my intentions and took general statements as personal attacks.
I did not intent to attack you or your, I mean THIS, blog. I don’t even recal stating that a debate was a bad idea as I happen to think it is a good idea. I just don’t think, from my experience, a civil Israel-Palestinian debate over a long period of time is possible. I have started civil debated on this issue many times, but with enough people, civility never seems to last.
I just said one quick statement regarding percentage of casualities in relation to our emotion. From that, you accused me advocating “ignoring” Palestine with “0%” attention and that this conflict should never be mentioned. (reffing to your comment #2)
Nothing can further from the truth!!! Of course I love a good debate (I’m a Jew, we debate people to death) about the Israel-Arab issue and I would never avocate those beliefs. just don’t understand where your claims in your comment #2 came from? Do you really think I believe those ideas because I assure you I do not.
Oh thank g-d. For a moment there I was worried I have an “attitude”, accuse others of “not carring”, overly sensitive, and should take a hike.
Please, re-read this thread from the VERY beggining. I didn’t accuse you of not carring as I don’t believe that for a second. I was just trying to respond to your claims in reply #2 which I feel where innacurate.
lol
Is “attitude” something worse than I think it is in the English language?
What I mean to say is reaction. “Attitude.” Like, the way you are reacting/acting/presenting your argument. As far as I know, that’s hardly a character attack.
Yes please take your trench coat and leave!
Come on Jordan. If you had no faith in the discussion, why would you want to be a part of it? No one said you should leave this blog. I just asked you to avoid this little project (the debate thing) if you’re discouraged by it.
Not enough time, I wanna read Jane’s article and then review it here. You should read it too. Jane is a very good writer with lots of interesting thoughts to discuss. I think it was a misunderstanding. However your wording was really confusing. I tend to overreact sometimes because my passion for this gets in the way. I’ll try to tone it down.
Jane,
One comment, Moses was a Manifestation of God, therefore He didn’t just come for the Jews, He came for all mankind. The Egyptians had a chance and they especially their leader turned away.
The Christ was a Manifestation of God, therefore he didn’t just come for the Jews, He came for all mankind. The Jews had their chance and they rejected him, well, 99.9% did.
Muhammad, came from the same God, He came for all mankind, not just those small tribes in the Arabic peninsula. Israel and the Christian world rejected Him. Well He was rejected by his own tribe at first and forced to leave.
Do you see there is some pattern here? The point I am making is that the Jews and the Christians totally did dismiss a Messiah. Except the Jews did it more often than any of the others.
You’re also totally dismissing the Messiah who, we’re promised, will reign over a world thoroughly cleansed of man’s hateful doings.
Some people think most Muslims live in the Middle East. Sorry to disappointed you, but majority of the Muslims live peacefully in South Asia and South-East Asia.
Also the Israel-Palestine conflict is the ROOT of the problem in the MidEast and not anything else. This conflict is poisoning the minds of the youth in the Muslim world and beyond.
Guys, I AM IN FOR SURE… BTW I do know some really reasonable Muslims in the Islamosphere who are willing to debate respectfully and who have a high tolerance level.
Great Drima! We’ll need them here. I think everyone will gain a lot from these discussions.
We’ll need to keep what Richard said in mind if we want this to be successful. I’ve frequented Muslim forums in the past, the reactions were embarrassing to say the least. I hope sane Muslims will use this as a forum for worthwhile and friendly discussions with non-Muslims and Muslims who have different opinions or paths (Sunnis, Shiites, etc.) We need to do our best to keep the atmosphere healthy.
As a former Saudi Muslim I would say it is generally impossible to have a civilized debate with Muslims about their faith. I mean, the same people who demand to be treated equally everywhere and demand to have their voices heard and their religion accepted issue death sentences and fatwas against those like me who leave the hate of Islam for the love of another faith.
The people who follow a prophet who took a 6 year old wife and consummated the relationship when she was 9, not to mention a man who led war, commanded killings and took multiple wives cannot be open to rational debate. People who claim to follow a religion of science from a Koran and prophet who states that earth is flat cannot be considered logical. I could go on and on but there’s no point. Debates between rational, logical and scientific people cannot work when the other party is worshipping a sadistic cult leader and emulating his life (Don’t pet a dog or you’ll go to hell!!).
Good luck to all….
What I said about Jews debating till death is true. Seriously, it drives my gf nuts and rightly so. I can honestly see why people can’t stand debating us, we just can’t shut-up!
Funny thing is its entirely her fault! She is the one who convinced me to be more confident in Israel, and her highschool education on Israel hatred was just a destraction from the hell that the Mullas enforced on her childhood.
Yes, it’s true, I don’t think a debate will have any positive effect for the following reasons:
1. This is an emotional issue for all of us, reason comes in last place.
2. This type of thing on a large open scale has always failed in the past.
3. The people who would likely participate in this debate are NOT the problem. Esra, if you were representing Palestinian interests, there would be peace tommorow.
4. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and yes even the nutbar extreme hasadicks settlers in the West Bank are calling the shots and they don’t care about debates, only faith and the cause.
That being said, good luck with it! I hope you prove me wrong. Maybe you can get Fareed Zarkawi or Irshad Manji to moderate!
I will not participate as this thread was more than enough for me and we didn’t even get to the debate yet
But, if you decide to have a specific thread on whether the Israel issue trully matters or if it is just a red herring similar to the “Jew problem” of the 1930′s, I would love to take part in that debate.
Esra, I think we both misunderstood each other and I hope we can just leave this thread behind us as I so enjoy kicking your butt in your economic debate threads
Cool?
You think we’re just like anyone else on the web. You are wrong.
Not sure how much I can emphasize this. But stick around and you’ll see.
What? Where did you kick my butt? You didn’t even understand the Bahraini economy in the thread I deleted because I made a promise to stay away from local politics to keep this website unblocked in Bahrain. Stop acting like a child.
Then please don’t post in this thread anymore if you’re not going to stay on topic. Thank you.
Dear, when you debate your others, you don’t insult them for following this faith. You ask them questions. For example, in this debate, the tone should be:
“Why would you follow this Prophet (saw) if he’s guilty of ….” and then you list your problems with our Prophet (saw.)
Your post was pretty much full of assumptions and bad implications and that is what’s wrong with debates. There is no mutual respect. You’re going to have to maintain that and respect our decisions to be or stay Muslims. You don’t just accuse us of not being logical enough to lead a productive debate.
Looks like we’re going to have to set a lot of rules for this to work, and heavy moderation is going to be key, however it is NOT because we are not ready for the challenege. But if we want the right open-minded and polite people to be attracted to this discussion, we’re going to have to get rid of petty insults. The likes of your post won’t be deleted, I think a post would have to be really insulting and disrespectful for it to be deleted and I think your main problem remains with Islam and its Prophet rather than the people who follow it, which is perfectly fine.
Also people can’t keep coming to this discussion with nothing but cynical remarks and pessimism. When we say this is going to be productive – it’s going to be productive, that means you’re going to have to make an extra effort to believe the fact that there are sane Muslims out there who can hold an interesting discussion about their faith without resorting to insults or hatred, which most of the websites do. We’re different and we’ve always done things differently here. If we can talk about Israel and Palestine with fellow Israelis while maintaining respect and friendship, that’s a good sign, and it shows us that this could work too. Our passion and pride won’t stand in the way.
Fair enough Esra, I do respect the effort that you’ve gone to, and having read some of your other postings it is clear to me that you are a lucid and intelligent individual with a profound knowledge of regional and global events. I do sincerely applaud what you are trying to do here, even I though I am, as you so rightly pointed out, a bit cynical.
So let me ask you, as a neighbour and someone who enjoys the “sins” (i refer only to the drinks) of your country with regularity the following question.
Why do you consider yourself a Muslim if Muslims accept the Koran as the word of God and Mohammed as his prophet and an admirable human being when he DID marry a 6 year old, have multiple wives, wage war and engage in numerous sexual perversions by almost anyones standard?
Why do you advocate such intercultural understanding (which is very admirable, I repeat) when this faith that you process says just some of the following things (excuse me while i get my fathers quran)?
Ok…here we go…
” I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”
“Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah”
“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends1. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers.”
“Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?”
Why, being a clever and open-minded person as I truly believe that you are do you defend Islam when the following was taught by the prophet Mohammed?
“But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.”
Listen I could go on and on about the brutality of Mohammed’s life and teachings but I am just genuinely curious how you can balance your peaceful and good natured intentions while still being a devotee of the man who issued the words you’ve just read.
Now you might be tempted to respond using peaceful and harmonious words from the quran and I welcome you to do so but I don’t think there is much point. Famous serial killer Ted Bundy was also a romantic poet. Jack the Ripper had good penmanship as well. Beautiful words mean nothing when the same person can say and do things so ugly…
Esra, I was joking! For g-d’s sake I had a smiley
at the end. Jeez.
All I was trying to say is how much I enjoy debating in the economics thread.
SA, this is great, it’s exactly what we’re looking for here. In fact it is only through such discussions that Muslims can truly begin pondering their religion and ask themselves the questions they have been so scared to ask throughout their lives. Myself included.
Since you live in this region, I don’t need to remind you that most of our Muslims were born into this religion and therefore accept it blindly. Many of us grow a passion for this religion despite not understanding it. Through this discussion we would like to target similar young individuals, and help them wrap their heads around the concepts of the Koran and the teachings of our Prophet Mohammed (saw.) Then, it is up to them whether they choose to remain faithful or not. It will be their personal choice and whatever that may be, we should respect it.
Basically, this is our way of introducing intellectual freedom. We consider religion to be a personal thing and living here it is treated like a necessity. You’re either a Muslim by name or you’re a sinful traitor. I have turned my back against this religion many times when I exposed myself to literature that strongly critisized this faith. But through further extensive research and reading I have come back to this. I go back and forth. A friend and I used to write religious satire and cartoons, and I remember getting into so much trouble because of it. This turned me off the religion once again because I felt like this faith did not respect my basic human rights, but I was mistaken. There is a type of Islam expressed through culture and the pure Islam which is expressed in the Koran. If you follow only the latter, it really makes a big difference in your mentality, lifestyle, and attitude in life or towards this religion. It is very often that people confuse the two, and it’s not so easy to distinguish these from one another.
I will write about those experiences later, and it will answer some of the questions you have asked. I have a lot of friends who left this faith at a very young age, and the way they were socialized had a lot to do with it. I left it because I seeked a more comfortable lifestyle, but then realized that my life couldn’t be comfortable or complete unless I remain faithful to Allah. I believe in Him, His power, His love, and I choose to follow this path. To be honest with you, I have yet to find out exactly why, it is mostly just a gut feeling. My life becomes depressing whenever I am not attached, sub7an Allah.
I really hope you’ll stick around however and if you feel threatened by anyone’s tone here do let me know. We’re all pretty reasonable and we’re here because we’re ready to listen, think, and learn. The reason why I have so much faith in this is because I do have a lot of ex-Muslim friends and we debate this all the time while maintaining respect and friendship, we can do exactly the same here.
Do you go to Bahrain often? Lots of young ex-Muslims or “Muslims” who don’t like to practice their religion because of their dislike of the basic teachings of the religion. You won’t know who they are right away, but if you stop and talk to young people, you’ll start seeing the pattern. For some reason it’s mostly guys. One would think it’s the women who would turn away from this religion because of all the supposed responsibilities.
In any case we are in the process of transforming this website, and the real discussion about this will start on the new website, however I have saved your post and we will start with it. They raise very important issues. I know I left many of your questions unanswered but I (and others) will get to them when the new site is running.
The Saudi Apostate, very interesting questions. You asked not to mention the beautiful verses of the Koran which as you probably already know all say the exact opposite of what you quoted. Those verses do exist.
First of all the verses you mentioned above have a context and they can’t simply be interpretted in a vaccum. There are conditions as to how they apply. You can’t take them literally. You must check the reasons for why those verses were revealed and if they were revealed during a defensive war or in other contexts. I’m sure you probably know that.
Secondly, there are disputes about Aicha’s age when the Prophet married her. She wasn’t 6 but more like 9 or 11. Moreover he didn’t engage in sexual relations with her at that age but waited until she physically matured.
Thirdly, polygamy might seem like a weird thing in our current time but it has a purpose when the ratio of men to women gets altered during war for example and becomes 1:4. If the first wife doesn’t mind, I repeat doesn’t mind, the husband can take a second with a maximum set at four. As for the Prophet being a so called “sexual pervert” I vehemently disagree. If he was interested in satisfying his lust, he would have married the most gorgeous women especially after gaining much political power later in his life. Yet he didn’t. He married very regular ordinary women.
Fourthly the wars he waged were defensive in nature. I’m sure you know how much they suffered at the hands of the un-believers at that time, I repeat that time (emphasis on context of that time). The boycott was a very harsh period and the Muslims were harshly persecuted yet they remained completely pacifist. It was only after that time, that Allah Almighty gave them permission to fight back and revealed many of the verses you mentioned to the Prophet during different situations (again context). Finally Allah wanted the Ka’aba cleansed and that’s when he ordered the Prophet to claim back Mecca and cleanse the Ka’aba from the idols.
The Saudi Apostate, I respect the choice you made of leaving Islam even though I disagree with it and I hope you accept my rebuttals in the spirit of respectfull intellectual debate.
I myself, have been through a period of non-religiosity because I asked myself questions regarding all those things you mentioned. However I dug for real information and true good natured interpretations. Guess what? They were damn hard to find sadly because many self-serving power hungry dumb Mullahs interpret the Koran in such a dumb way that I don’t agree with. On Judgement Day, we all take responsibility for our own actions and we can’t use the excuse of “sorry Allah, I just followed what the Mullahs were saying”. We can’t. Therefore it’s the duty of every Muslim to search for answers and read. We were told to read. That was the first verse ever revealed form th Koran. We were told to read and seek knowledge.
Like I said The Saudi Apostate, I respect your choice because Islam tells me to do so (yes I know how dumb must sound to you but I can quote you verses if you like). The religion is defintely in a sad state today. There’s no question about that. However the sad state it’s in is not because of Islam itself but rather because of the dumb interpretations of Muslims themselves and because of the hypocrisy they pursue when “following” it wrongly. I might be inte minority and so might Esra’a, I repeat might. However I will never allow anyone to have a monopoly on Islamic interpretations.
Anyways, good night. I need to go to bed. I’ll be dropping by on this post soon again.
Drima, if I may, can I ask a few questions regarding Islam in practice. I should say in all fairness, these questions are coming from someone who has recently questioned the merit of Islamic ideals. I apologize if it comes off as offensive.
1. Why are the borders of the Islamic world in such turmoul with almost all of its neighbors? (ie, Thailand, Israel, Kashmir, Chechnya, etc..). Do you believe the causes are purely political or rooted (however falsely) in Islamic ideas?
2. Why does it seem that the Quran, at least in modern times, requires more interpretition than the Bible to be what we would consider humane and tolerant?
3. Do you believe a self-identified “Islamic state” will ever be considered economicaly-socially successful by westearn standards? If yes, do you think there is a valid comparison between the idea of an Islamic state and a Marxist/Communist state?
4. What do you think about CNN’s decision not to show the Danish Cartoons? Do you believe the west compromised its principals?
Again, sorry if these questions come off as insultive. I appreciated your above answers and hope you will do the same
If you have any questions for a liberal-athiest-Canadian-Jew, I’m all ears! Oh, and everyone else feel free to give it a go of course!
First and foremost the problem starts with the creation of these nations. Just like Africa where two or many opposing tribes/ethnic groups were put into the same country thus creating an unstable nation.
Borders of Christian countries are the same… look at Africa, Philipines, Eastern Europe, South America. Why only focus on Islamic countries?
Bible had 2000 years and the Quran only 1600… 400 years ago the Bible did everything plus more the Muslims are doing now.
This is irrelevant. Western standards only apply to Westerners. Westerners think anyone who eat with their hand as uncivilized, at least that’s what every other person whom I met think.
â€Marxist/Communist state†is an oxymoron. Please educate yourself before writing some garbage about something you don’t know.
If you are talking about USSR, that is a Socialist nation. In a socialist nation religion does not exist at a state level and your argument is invalid to start.
What principles? You fund and promote countries who stand for everything that a free world should not stand for and you talking about principles?
Hi JordanR, I just woke up a while ago. I think Jina did a really good job answering the questions. I was going to answer by saying something somewhere along the lines he said.
Don’t worry dude. I didn’t get offended at all. I know you’re just asking well-intentioned questions.
The problem is that your questions are mostly flawed to start with. It’s kind of the same thing that Arabs do when they subconsciencely attach the problems they see somehow to Israel and start building up on them to make some arguments. You’re having a very selective memory dude and you only remember cases where Muslims (not so much Islam) are involved. Why? This honestly has nothing to do with them being Muslim, the same way conflicts between non-Muslims have do with their non-Islam religions. It just human nature mixed with culture (not so much religion but culture).
I’ll elaborate later if I have time but I’ve got to run now.
Peace
Also Jordan,
This has to do with media ethics. In the code of ethics for many news services, not offending any viewers is very important. Loyalty is a “principle,” and they were trying to be loyal to all of their viewers including Muslims. Since these cartoons were offensive by nature, networks that held respect for their audience did not show them. The cartoons also did not deserve all the media hype it was getting, so I don’t think that’s anything to worry about. People always think this is because Islam is introducing censorship in otherwise “free” societies.
But that’s not the case at all. Read these networks’ code of ethics. It has to do with loyalty and duties to the public. Fear-mongerers will tell you otherwise, and writers like Michelle Malkin (the spawn of Satan) will run around OMG-ing all over the place saying that the Muslims are out to get you, your kids, your rights, and your media. I should emphasize the OMG part. 1.4 billion Muslims are crawling all over this planet like roaches, eating away at your individual liberties. Yum.
While I disagree with that statement, that is a fair question that deserves a much longer answer than I have time for right now. I will repost soon.
Yes but it seems from my limited understand, Jesus said “love they enemy” and of course, Jesus never killed anyone, and even with that reformation was very tough. Isn’t this going to make Islamic reform much more difficult?
And if the comparison of Islam being in a Christian type of “Dark Ages” 500 years later and is morally equivlant, how are non-muslims living TODAY supposed to cope with this natural process? Should there be isolation until this period passes?
How many westerners have you met? Because I certainly don’t believe that. But for a momemt if you will, by western standards of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness”, do you believe a self-identified “Islamic state†will ever be considered economicaly-socially successful?
Left wing tolerance in action
Can’t we have a polite debate? It doesn’t have to be a shouting match.
I do believe there is a comparison to be made. I do have the feeling that Marxism/Communism and Islamism do share some utopian ideoligies as well as the practice of violence on its followers to bring about these utopian ideas. Where capitolism, free markets, allow individuals to set their own success AND failures without state intervention.
Again, it was only a question. No need to go nuts. I do believe that someone living in the west does have the option to talk about principles just as you are.
But I was refering to the principals of free speech, even when speech is offensive. CNN has no problems showing pictures of “piss Christs” and other offensive material but made a special exemption this time.
For those who missed it, CNN actually showed information provided by Egyptian Sandmonkey’s blog while Egypts embassidor was in the studio. CNN also showed Arab newspaper cartoons of hooked nose jews eating babies for all to see and asked why these are acceptable but not Mohammrd?
I think CNN lost its nerve and gave into violence. I like the South Park approach, either everything is open to mockery or nothing is.
Thank you. I have seen you around the blogs and I am very impressed with your ability to be kind and polite to everyone. Its a very rare commidity.
I do not wish to come across as someone who dismisses westearn attrocities, because g-d knows we have our share. But my concern is the sheer global scope of these conflicts one or both sides is fighting on behalf of “Islam”. While the IRA, Lords Resistance Army, and other militants/terrorists tend to focus on their local causes/disputes, Islamic militants seem to be popping up all over the place, even Canada. Its hard for me to understand why.
That is a very interesting point. I happen to believe that religion and culture are not completely seperate concepts. To me, religion and culture are just sets of ideas that you pass on to your children and use to build the foundations of a society (including athiesm). While its unpopular to say so, I trully believe that not every culture is created equal. I do believe that some sets of ideas will create wonderful free societies and other ideas will consinstantly produce poverty, violence, and the need to blame others.
Thank you for your responses!
If that is true, then why did the networks show Piss Christ, Monkey Dung Christ, Maddona as Christ, etc..? Are these networks being unloyal to their Christian viewers or were they simply reporting the news as their viewers expect them to do.
And is this chief principal of being loyal similar to the reason why you were forced to remove your excellent Bahrain economic thread? Do you not wish your right to state your own ideas trump Bahrain’s right not to be offended?
I must admit I don’t for a second believe that CNN sensored itself out of respect, in fact, I think the censorship was a sign of sheer disrespect.
When they showed those anti-semetic cartoons on the same day, CNN was saying “we respect Jews enough to know that we can offend them without fear, but when it comes to offending Muslim principals, we need a seperate set of standards”.
The cartoon incident played such a huge role in my view of Islamic ideals (specially in Europe) and I suspect, many other self-identified liberals as well. Seeing innocent Nigerians being hacked to death and the signs “Behead anyone who beheads Islam” had such a negative impact on my ideas of religious tolerance.
As someone who cannot stop making fun of my own religion and culture “Jewish Shtick”, I did a complete 180 in my belifs in moral relativism and multi-culturalism. It was the “jumping the shark” moment if you will. Now I am trying to tread lightly and hope a breakthrough will be made, but the situation seems to be getting worse.
What do you say to someone like me? A former left-wing multi-culturalist who has lost confidence in these ideas?
Jane, I haven’t forgotten your good question regarding why the focus on Islam… I need more time, sorry.
So you have time to answer everything else but never enough time to answer that simple question at least with a summary of your ideas. Interesting. The name’s “Jina” by the way, there’s no Jane here.
Did anyone make a point of stating that these were offensive? No. Mocking religious figures is fine in your culture, it’s not fine in ours.
I don’t think you know the significance of those cartoons. It wasn’t your average political or religious satire. CNN offends Islam many times, don’t make it seem as if they treat Muslims by employing a different set of what you like to call “principles.” CNN is in fact known for many of its biases that has never served the interests of Muslims, but it was in good choice not to show those cartoons.
It wasn’t merely mocking the religion, it goes way beyond that.
That’s pretty funny, in a sad kind of way. So the reactions of a few Muslims made you re-consider pure Islamic ideals?
Did you know that the same videos were rolled from different angles in more than one network, making it seem as if these protestors were 500,000 instead of a few hundred (which is the actual number of the people who took part in those rallies)? It is actually sad that people form their opinions about an entire faith based on what they see on a box instead of actual research.
I am a Canadian living in CANADA. I do not live up on a mountain isolated from civilization.
I knew parents who didn’t believe that their sons were a racists even though theu were neo-Nazi… sigh…
Why do Westerners think they are not racist even when they witness it right in front of them? Are Westerners preprogrammed since childhood to be like this?
This is not Western standard, this is a universal standard that the Westerners tarnished when they took over the world.
Does it matter what’s in their name? DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE’S Republic of Korea… yup they are very democratic and people love their leader…
Almost all nations on earth are failed states if you look at them economically and socially and for majority Islam has nothing to do with it.
Evidently a woman named Jina and I have somehow been confused in readers’ minds. I’m the Jane who wrote about the Resurrection of Palesine, very early in this long exchange of letters. I’ve received no reply to it though, and I’d hoped for some, but I think the confusion with “Jina” interruped the train of thought.
BTW, Jina–and anyone else who’s interested, the Jewish/Muslim “argument” began while Muhammad was alive–and it boils down to: 1) the Jews, the descendants of the Hebrews, do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, much less God the Son.
2) the Christian clergy enlarged Jesus’ role to identify him as “God the Son.”
3) Muhammad identified Jesus as the Messiah, thereby correcting the Jews, and he reprimanded the Christians for making Jesus a “god.” Therefore, the Muslims, NOT MUHAMMAD, decided that Islam has supplanted both earlier religions because they made such errors. That’s the ancient argument in a nutshell.
Hi Jane! I believe Edo River responded to your article on comment #14.
Its is a simple question but a very complex answer and I want to give it the time it deserves, probably later today.
You know what I find interesting? Your ability to see the absolute worse in me at every possible opportunity.
Actually, many Christians found those incidents very offensing and pubicly complained. But no cernsorship was applied.
But CNN and CBC are westearn institutions. Should its guidlines be based on Islamic cultural values or western values?
Besides, Arab newspapers publish hundreds of horrible anti-semetic and anti-catholic cartoons every year? Shouldn’t the golden rule of reciprocity be two ways?
I think it is safe to say no one in the west realised the significance. Don’t get me wrong, the cartoons were as offensive as they get, totally inappropriate.
A few Muslims? Hundreds of thousands participated in protests around the world. Everything from Signs praising Hitler in Pakistan, people calling for killing of anyone who insults Islam in Britian, Egyptian Doctors, who took an oath to do no harm, denying their patients Danish Insulin products, and worst of all, dozens of Nigerians being hacked to death.
You say I don’t realize the significance of those cartoons. Fair enough. At the same time, you don’t realize the increadible effect the violent response had on many reasonable people in the west. This type of thing changes hearts and minds.
Again, please stop assuming the absolute worst in me. For all you know, I could have frequeted amnesty international reports, follow both westearn and Islamic news sources, and engange on many Muslim blogs.
I am not a woman.
I am also Canadian. May I ask why you choose to live in a country when you have such contempt for its westearnized people?
Thats nice Jina, thanks. You could atleast have the descensy to imply that I am a “ZioNazi” or “AshkeNazi”. (is it just me, but do people who identify themselves as tolerant the first to villafy others as Nazis?)
You know what else I hate about all Westeaners? They all generalize and they don’t understand the meaning of the word “irony”.
Incedently, do you consider your increadible hatred of westeners any less racist than what you accuse me of?
You have a good point that the title of country is usually irrelavent to the reality on the ground. So I take it out of the all the countries that identify themselves as Islamic or having Sharia law nationally or locally, they are all being dishonest?
I happen to think Canada is a very successful state. We have enourmous wealth, kind people, tolerance and diversity, liberty, rule of law, free speech, etc.. While yes we have problems, I consider myself very fortinate to live in such a wonderful state at such a wonderful time.
Jordan, you are being as dramatic as ever.
If I want to criticize your post, I will do it. It’s called debating, and not “bringing out the worst in you” or whatever your new claim is.
Link me to an incident in which a protest was lead in more than 1 country to show their discomfort with the Madonna case. Hundreds of American shows make fun of Jesus. I don’t see anyone crying out loud about it as much as the Muslims do.
This is paranoid – can you tell me how CNN is based on Islamic cultural values? Not showing those cartoons is now an “Islamic” value that the West is promoting as well?
The faith itself is mocked. There is a huge difference. No one is mocking a Prophet. In fact it is forbidden in Muslim cultures to mock Prophets, especially Christian ones – and Muslims protested the Da Vinci code for this reason.
Many cartoons were made mocking Muslims and Islam in general, Muslims hardly reacted as badly. The Mohammed cartoons took a new turn and hit right where it hurts: directly mocking our revered Prophet (saw) through images. If you know the basics of Islam you’d know that we have very strict rules about putting a face to a Prophet.
Hundreds of thousands … with no teeth. Did you even bother to look at the pictures? Can you call these people “educated”?
Furthermore, thousands out of an overall population of 1.4 billion is nothing. These people hardly represented Muslims worldwide, or the collective Muslim voice, and therefore your argument was once again based on a mere generalization rather than, say, historical or cultural facts.
What we are looking for in these discussions is arguments that people like SA pointed above, not these tired generalizations and assumptions that have been argued to death on this website. Read “Is it really Islam?” and its many comments. I do not wish to repeat myself.
And what, that makes you an expert?
It’s just you.
I never said you were one. I just pointed out an example. I do not tolerate racists.
And you are being as personal as ever.
Did I ever say don’t criticize? By all means, critisize! It would just be nice to treat each other respectfully by focusing on the arguments rather than being so hostile to each other for no reason.
Thats definately true. I guess some idioligies are more tolerant than others.
Exactly! My point is that CNN did not act out “respect” or “loyalty”. CNN acted out of FEAR. Fear of violence, fear of threats, fear of having its foreign reporters arrested. Respect would have been showing the cartoons knowing they could offend and still be safe.
My problem with CNN’s decision is that we should never give into fear or tyranny.
Does that include destroying Ancient Buddhist statues? Or burning cows in Hindu temples? Where is the golden rule in Islam?
Does that strict rule apply equaly to non-Muslims? Shouldn’t the west be allowed to practice its culture of free speech?
Yes, hundreds of thousands in dozens of countries. And the Arab UN representatives who called for the mockery of Islam to be considered a crime were well education. So were the Egyptian doctors who put their patience at risk (or atleast discomfort).
Did I call myself an expert? Again, you accused me of basing my entire opinion on this one incident and said how “sad” this was. Am I not allowed to refute your claim?
Really? Tell me again about how awful westeners are?
Touché.
You’re implying that they’re personal attacks. Why are you allowed to assume so much and when I do it it’s considered an attack on your character?
I don’t think this is in any way hostile. I called you sensitive for good reason – you accused Jina of “freaking out” when he merely asked you a question. Don’t you think you’re being a little dramatic here with all of your accusations? You’re trying to prove yourself right in the first comment by framing this as an attack on you, and it’s really not working. You just keep going in circles.
As someone who watches CNN, I do not think this is true. CNN is hardly pro-Islam, in the sense that they skew things to portray Islam in the same manner that it is being portrayed in many other American networks. It’s not as bad as the conspiracy theorists and Arabs in general make it sound, but it’s still pretty bad.
I wish we can talk to the decision-maker – I would bet you a billion dollars that it had to do with CNN’s code of ethics.
Herein lies your problem, my friend. You consider the actions of a tiny minority to be representative of an entire faith.
Do you know that we have Hindu temples in Bahrain, a Muslim country? Do you know that we have churches as well, none of which were ever attacked? Do you know that Christian missionaries roam around freely with their large crosses? None of them were attacked, killed, or even questioned. We let them be.
You implied it.
You still didn’t refute it – you based your opinion on more of such little incidents. In other words, your post was full of baseless assumptions mostly having to do with mass media rather than actual Islam. I saw no facts – I saw examples of current events which you then formed as “facts” about this religion.
May I know what I can do about it then? What if I have contempt for Westerners? Ignorance annoys me and it’s my opinion. Am I not allowed to have my opinion? ohh ya forgot… another Western concept or is it universal… if you don’t agree with me you don’t deserve freedom…
I have no hatred for Westerners, but I have hatred for their stupidity and ignorance. HUGE DIFFERENCE and Westerns include all race and religion… so can’t say it’s racism.
Sorry for interrupting the personal arguments with an on-topic question
Am I correct in thinking that the (original) Jihad was defensive, justified only if an Islamic nation is attacked or Muslims are prevented from practicing their religion?
“Permission (to take up arms) is hereby given to those who are attacked, because they have been wronged. Allah has power to grant them victory: those who have been unjustly driven from their homes, only because they said: Our Lord is Allah.†(22:39)
By the way, “Muslims not afraid of criticism” is a great title, but is anyone who criticizes going to be considered one of the “Muslim-bashers and those who blame all of this world’s ills on Islam” ?
If you argue like Jordan, yes.
If you argue intelligently and politely like SA, not at all, and it is the kind of debates that we strongly encourage.
Well, that’s a relief! After all, your original post specifically says that the debate will be between Muslims and Muslim-bashers.
As for Jordan, I really didn’t see him do any bashing. Getting bashed q
There will always be that one arrogant person who ruins the whole thing by being generally rude and disrespectful,
Opps: sorry. I accidentally tabbed onto the submit button before I was done. Anyway, it was suppossed to go: I saw him getting bashed quite a lot, however.
The quote about the one generally rude person wasn’t suppossed to be there, either.
Sorry for my clumsiness and any confusion it may have caused.
Is “bashers” considered an insult in the English language? I use it all the time. I didn’t know it was particularly insulting or misleading. I wasn’t very picky with the wording – I assume people understand what I mean. There’s nothing wrong with Muslim-bashers, we’re just here to refute their arguments in a civil manner.
We have already discussed Jordan enough on this website and he knows why he was getting such reactions, visit the ‘When A Nation Commits Suicide, or Crack In The Toilet’ post for more information or his comments on some of our earlier works.
Yes, “bashers” is insulting. It’s taken to mean unreasoning and intolerant criticism. Have you ever heard the phrases “Jew bashing” or “Gay bashing”? One of the meanings of “bash” is to strike something violently. Oddly, another meaning is a fancy party: isn’t English fun?
Saying someone has an “attitude” is taken to mean they are being stubborn and/or arguementative, by the way.
I like how that word sounds, pity I can’t use it anymore without offending anyone. I hate having to keep look-out on my diction. As long as I’m not being racist or violently insulting, I don’t see what’s wrong with using certain “fun” words.
I know, and my accusation of Jordan remains. He’s been stubborn since the day he got here, assuming that we hate him and are ganging up against him and his “innocent views” of what he considers reality. It’s very paranoid – I really don’t want these discussions to attract the overly-sensitive who are going to cry about everything. Hell, I even apologized a few times, and still, I was being portrayed as the ruthless attacker with the typical Muslim attitude.
Esra’a, all I can tell you is that you don’t allways sound as tolerant or as interested in open debate as your presence here says you must be. I take it for granted that you’re cool because you’re here, but I really don’t think you know how some of your words read in the West.
If I may constructively criticize for a moment, your original statement (and thanks for the edit) was that the people on the other side of the debate were:
Well, Muslim bashers are jackasses who’ll heckle a woman on the street because she’s wearing a hijab: the same sort of stupidly evil fools that are burning folks alive in Iraq although (thank God) not usually as violent.
Those “who blame all of this world’s ills on Islam,” aren’t exactly a group respected for their intellectual gifts, either. The way you phrased your opening statement was Muslims versus Muslim-bashers and those who blame all of this world’s ills on Islam, right? That reads, “Muslims versus bigots and idiots.” If someone wants to join that debate they must be either a Muslim, a bigot, or an idiot…
As I said, your edit was perfect: “people who constructively criticize Islam”
They’re exactly the people you want to talk to, right?
Oh, you “hate having to keep look-out on my diction”? Trust me, I know how you feel: I’m livng here in the land of Political Correctness, and it is a HUGE barrier to the very sort of fair play that’s it’s suppossed to achieve.
Hi Grumpy,
Here’s the deal, for everybody:
If you’re not in for a good debate: Don’t post. It’s as simple as that. If you’re too politically correct, too sensitive, and if you let your emotions get in the way of a good debate, then contain yourself until you can debate in a civil manner like SA did. We’re all passionate about our beliefs, everyone will inevitably get hurt – but stop being so expecting and emotional. It really kills the argument. Stop accusing others of attacking you when they’re not, either.
I’m tired of people like Jordan who aren’t only stubborn, but seem unaccepting of other opinions and in fact they think such discussions is about “kicking ass,” which he stated several times. “Oh look at me, I’m kicking your ass in this debate!” and then of course he adds his all-too-famous “But I’m just joking!” to paint himself as the victim of attacks that don’t even exist.
My frustration in this thread is due to his immaturity. If I apologized – your job is to accept that apology. When I apologize even more after you don’t accept such apology – you’re being difficult, and you’re asking to be insulted. That’s where Jordan’s attacks came from.
Jordan thinks debates are all about winning and showing off your debate skills – this is NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. This is about learning, and respecting those with different beliefs. When you frame your argument like an insult, that doesn’t help either. I don’t think you even realize how insulting your comments were in the other Muslim thread, but you didn’t see me personally attacking you, did you?
I like how you say my arguments are very insulting to those in the West when the West’s general media repeatedly states that Islam is a threat to your existence. Is that not insulting to us? Do you expect us not to react with disgust? Why do you take it personally? Did you see me ever attacking you specifically, anywhere? No, nor did you specifically attack me, that’s why we were able to maintain such a discussion for a long time until you felt the need to say, “YOU JUST DON’T GET IT!” which is also, dare I say, insulting. It’s not as if I refuse to get it – it’s just that I found your arguments repetitive. You also said that my example was such “nonsense.”
So don’t talk to me about tolerance and respect if you’re just as guilty, if not more.
Speaking of tolerance – No one said we had to run around hugging each other. If you say that I offended you, I will apologize, something I ALWAYS did and will continue doing so when needed, and to keep the debate alive you should accept that apology and move on. Not everyone is going to be offended or insulted by the same things. I can’t re-consider absolutely every word I write because “oh it might offend someone.” Everything can offend anybody, I’m not going to sit here and babysit. WHEN I offended that person – I will edit it, which I also did, and I will apologize, which I always did as well.
Tell me please – how is this not tolerant?! Did I delete your posts and ban your IP like many other Muslims sites would? Did I ever say “Grump you’re a wanker, you don’t even know what you’re talking about, you’re so ignorant!” I never said that. I also stated that I understand where you’re coming from and don’t blame you for having such a stance. Hell, I even tried to maintain a sense of humor with you while doing this. It was pretty friendly, I don’t know what else I should’ve done – send you flowers?
I’ve debated these issues with many people from the “West” (what a vague word), even here at college, and rarely do I face any problems. Even when they resort to insulting me and my religion, I tend to remain calm, which appeases them and they would start debating more civilly as well. This is why I have faith in these discussions, even when people specifically claimed that Muslims are incapable of arguing in a civil manner.
You’ve been here for a while, I’ve yet to see a personal attack against you. I’ve seen your views attacked, but remember that you attack our views as well, which I don’t and never took personally. If someone offends you, and if you feel uncomfortable being here, I will do something about it like I always do because as our mission statement implies, this is a place for everyone. Even those with the most extremist ideologies, we will accept, just as long as they don’t make things personal.
The Primary purpose of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is to reveal the Lord God of Abraham. Either the members of all three religions will recognize the God they mutually worship, or we’ll have the “gross darkness” foretold by the Hebrew Prophets, who warned that we must “turn our hearts to each other,” or endure the “darkness.”
To “turn our hearts to each other” believers must acknowledge:
The Hebrew Prophets revealed the One and Only Lord God to His “images.”
The Christian Prophet (as Jesus identified himself in the Christian Scriptures) and his Apostles, revealed the promised Messiah.
Islam’s Prophet corrected the Jews, who didn’t recognize the Messiah, and he reprimanded the Christians for speaking of “three.” Muhammaad said: “The Messiah Jesus does not disdain to be a servant of God.”
We can learn about God from all three religions in the light of day, or learn about Him and the promised Messiah while suffering in the darkness of a nuclear winter. May we be wise.
Esra’a,
I wish you the best of luck. This site, mefaith, darfur-awareness: they’re an essential part of creating a global atmosphere of mutual understanding and respect.
There were one or two direct and personal insults against me (not by you), but I really don’t care. Nor was I offended when people attacked or criticized my views: as you say, that’s what we’re here for.
You, Esra’a, never said anything I considered to be a personal insult. I just wish the reverse was also true, because it was never my intention to insult you.
G.
I am disgusted by the fact that the mid-east receives so much media attention while Africa continues to rot. U.S. occupation in Iraq is accomplishing nothing but a rising national debt and a growing list of casualties. Islam is a theocratic religion; democracy on the mid-east will never work until the average, non-radical people are strong enough to unite against fundamentalist groups. As things stand now, this is a virtual impossibility. Even as religion serves to bind people together, it also serves to pit humans against one another over something that has no bearing what-so-ever on the fate of humanity. If people really wanted things to change they would forget about spiritual differences and focus on the commonalities that all humans share: our needs for food, shelter, love, and acceptance. Will we ever learn to share?
Scott, don’t assume too much. The fact remains that the Mideast gets BAD attention, not good, hence why there’s a civil war cooking in every corner of the region.
You’ll be glad to know that the Mideast Youth team is working on setting up African Youth, a website dedicated to bringing awareness and a sense of togetherness for African nations. My Nigerian friend is already working on it.
Esraa….
An old but good posting and great idea. But it wont work, or at least I am skeptical.
You are right about the fact that there is nowhere on the Internet (with hundreds of millions of sites!) that one can have a civil and serious debate on Islam, religion and culture clashes. I have seen a few sites that tried, but gave up.
I am a critic of Islam. Muslims prefer to call people like me “bashers” or even choice words that I can’t use here (when my comments are not deleted!). I have put thousands of hours into studying the Quran, ahadith, the history of Islam and current events, yet to most Muslims I am “ignorant” and “full of hate” and so on…
That is not how a debate works. Debates are about ideas, facts and sources/references. The problem is that Muslims: a. have no experience with free debate about issues relating to Islam and b. cannot accept any notion or fact that contradicts the preestablished “Islam is perfect” mentality that Islam requires. Thus, most Muslims responses tend to be either “Others did it too” or “You are ignorant”. Neither is debate.
It has been a while since I have been to Mideastyouth so I will look around and see what is new.
Take care.
J Kactuz
I will