This is What Israel Thinks?
Haaretz The chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee bashes Egypt in a Haaretz article. If this is how one of Israel’s most powerful foreign policy-makers feels about Egypt, then Egypt truly should start treating Israel like an enemy state. These are groundless accusations that rely on zero evidence.
Accusing Egypt, long the most proactive force for peace in the Middle East, from the Rhodes Armistice to the Camp David Accords, of supporting terror is ludicrous. There is no other Arab Middle Eastern country that has done more to stop the spread of terror than Egypt, This man is accusing Egypt of intentionally prolonging the conflict in the Middle East to suit its own interests, of preparing for war against Israel, of intentionally blocking all efforts at peace, at arming Hamas, and at supporting Palestinian terrorism.
It warrants no response. This is disgusting. Such accusations can’t be levied lightly in an international arena particularly in a sensitive place like the mIddle East. Egypt has sacrificed immensely for its role for peace in the region. Egypt was isolated for 15 years, Sadat was killed, Islamists launched an insurrection, hundreds of Egyptians have been killed in terror attacks, and Egypt’s economy has been tanking. The Egyptians have dismantled more Islamist terror cells than any other police force in the Middle East. They have launched a two-year war on Bedouin fanaticism, have destroyed countless tunnels to Gaza, and have orchestrated ceasefires between Hamas and FAtah and again between Israel and Palestine.
Egypt’s invitation to the Hamas leader is not a declaration of alliance but a realistic acknowledgement that peace can not be achieved without including the chief representatives of a significant portion of the Palestinian population. To deride an elected government as radical crazies not to be talked to is totally unwise. Egypt must deal with the precarious position of having the most pragmatic Middle East policy of any nation in the world.
If Israel truly thinks this way, then I think Egypt should just stop trying. Stop making efforts to peace in Palestine. Stop destroying tunnels. Stop sharing intelligence. If Israel can’t appreciate the sacrifices being made by Egypt in the name of friendship, then it shouldn’t be allowed to take advantage of such sacrifices.
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Ah..chill…
Let the guy say what he wants. Policy is what counts and I have not seen any Israeli planes divebombing Cairo. What I do see are tons of Israeli’s going to play in Sinai and spending lots of shekels, although in all my time in Israel..never have met an Egyptian tourist.
Why might that be?
That’s true Howie. But that guy is a powerful influence on Israeli foreign policy. He’s like the Joe Biden or Chuck Hagel of Israel. hmm, maybe I am overreacting…
Patrick you arent over reacting. Egypt recieves an enormous amount of U.S. aid on the basis that they remain peaceful with Israel and they have kept their end of the deal since 1979 despite the majority of the populations growing contempt. I think Israeli politicians should recognize the fact instead of inspiring bad blood between the two nations. Lets be honest Egypt is Israels ONLY friend in the neighborhood.
Howie, you dont see Egyptian tourists in Egypt because check points and harrasment dont make for a very relaxing vacation. Arabs arent especially welcome in Israel, not even Arab Americans or didnt you know?
This article might help educate you. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/19/rice.rights/index.html
Also here is the article I wrote about it.
http://whisperofmadness.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html
Enjoy!
Egypt is being very ambivalent about the whole peace thing. Basically, the attitude towards Israel seem to be “OK, we want to kill you, but can’t at the moment. So let’s have peace and make some money… but only until we can kill you.” You cannot honestly expect Israel to be happy with this, can you?
DBS – uhm. If you’re going to PA, yeah, it’s very likely to be unpleasant. Hint – it’s a warzone. Don’t expect fluffy bunnies and rainbows when you’re heading into a warzone. And don’t expect Israel to treat people heading into a warzone nicely… especially when they just happen to be the same ethnicity as the enemy. Especially after foreign nationals (including Westerners) have been repeatedly caught engaging in terrorism against Israel from PA.
It’s a whole different thing if you’re going to Israel. Very simple, from Egypt – just pass through Taba, the same way Israelis go to Egypt. Standard border crossing, and you’re in Israel. No checkpoints or harrasement. You’re very likely to get a nasty reception back at home, though, or in any Arab country afterwars…
What do you mean same ethnicity as the enemy. I’m not Arab, I’m not Palestinian I’m Egyptian. You know the good guys?
DB-
Raccoon might know better than me…but of the Muslims that have visited in Israel, like the Kuwaitis that seek medical help, the reception is generally good.
Now, in public, Israelis can be frekin assholes…but at least is is equal opportunity abuse…rudeness no matter what your race, color or creed.
But most Israeli’s, though there might be suspicion, would ultimately greet you with great curiosity.
And Raccoon has a point. I think the peace with Egypt, unfortunately, is a fragile, cold peace and I think Israel is hated by the general population.
DBS – heh. It’s not how I define you – it’s how my enemies define you. When people who really really want to kill you repeatedly state that, say, all the people wearing black t-shirts are their allies (and people in black t-shirts are often supporting this quite publicly), you’d get very cautious around people in black t-shirts.
Howie – yup, we Israelis are rude bastards, generally speaking. We’re rude (but nice) to everyone – it’s a cultural thing, kind of like Italians.
Of course, if you start running around Jerusalem while waving a Palestinian flag and screaming “yitbah el-yahood!”, you’re likely to get a lot of negative attention
Uh oh Are we generalizing now? Cause those crazy guys representing the people in black T-shirts can kiss my booty, I just so happen to like wearing black
Raccoon, your assertion that Egypt wants to eventually “kill Israel” is ludicrous. Egypt sells Israel natural gas, has QIZ trade agreement with Israel, and does more than any other country in THE WORLD to pacify the Palestinian situation, negotiate on behalf of Israeli hostages, and try and seek peace. Egypt is the ONLY country that has a pragmatic Middle East policy and is the ONLY country in the world that can be considered a trusted intermediary between both sides. Without Egypt, Israel would have no influence within the Palestinian government and no mean of communication with Hamas leadership. EGypt is the only way Israel will ever realize peace, and to dismiss Egypt as an enemy state, which is what you’re doing and the MK in Haaretz is doing, is dangerous and illogical. I have a very balanced Middle East perspective for an Egyptian, but if Israel considers me an enemy, why shouldn’t I feel that way back?
Popular attitudes against Israel are meaningless, it’s about the attitudes/policies of the government. First off, most Egyptians use the Israeli/Palestinian issue as an outlet for their anger about other regional and domestic concerns. Israelis who visit Egypt do not get a cold reception and Egyptians are probably far more kind to them than Israelis are to any of their visitors. That’s why the Israelis keep coming back.
Patrick – sorry, bro, I tell it like it is. The people of Egypt are being brainwashed against Israel and Jews by the government – in government-owned mosques, ‘papers, TV, radio… you name it.
So yeah, it is about the official policies of the government… and these seem to include demonizing me and convincing people that I am evil and should be killed. This is not something that I consider to be the action of a friendly government.
As I said before, Egypt is not quite an enemy state. It’s an enemy state that realized that peace is better than war (something every other Muslim/Arab government has failed to do save for Jordan [long live the king and may his dad rest in peace!])… but didn’t quite give up on the whole lets-kill-us-some-kikes thing. So it’s more of a not-quite-an-enemy state to Israel. Certainly not a friend.
Israelis seldom visit Egypt proper. We often go to Sinai – it’s one of my most favorite places on earth – because of the good food, good weed, excellent beaches and amazing nature (both sea and land). And the Bedouins are nice to us, too. We seldom meet non-Bedouin Egyptians. But I wouldn’t go to, say, Cairo or Alexandria, not without a large group.
And most Israelis don’t really consider Egypt or Egyptians… it’s just not something we usually think or talk about. It’s there, it doesn’t attack us at the moment – all’s good. But everybody knows it’s not exactly a friendly state… we get Egyptian TV, you know.
I can see why you’re so unhappy with this. But as you said, this is a pragmatic peace rather than a real one. And for whichever reason, the Egyptian government keeps hatred of Israel alive in Egypt.
Oh… and then there is the little fact that if Mubarak’s government falls and Ikhwan takes over, there will be war within days, initiated by Egypt. And hordes of Egyptians will happily volunteer.
And there is simply no way on Earth that Israel will want to initiate a war with Egypt, no matter who’s in the government.
Raccoon, obviously the media in Egypt is biased towards the Palestinians. However, I think allegations of anti-Semitism somehow being prevalent in the Egyptian “state-sponsored” media are greatly exaggerated. Few people can point to much evidence other than anti-Israeli rhetoric in newspaper editorials and TV shows, and a clear Palestinian bias in the news articles. Other than that, there’s not that much there. The media in Egypt is actually very diversified, far from all of it is state-owned. YOu have the major New York Times-daily (Al Ahram), the independent weekly (Al Osboa), the business-oriented daily (Al Masry al Yom), the opposition newspapers (Al-Wafd, Al-Ghad, etc.) the popular secular, Nasserist newsmagazine (Rose el Youssef- which has a feature on the Coptic Christian pope in every issue). Egyptian state-owned TV is mostly soap operas with little international impact and news that’s drab and not very sensational. Obviously, satellite channels are a different story, but they’re not under the control of the Egyptian government or freedom of the press.
TV shows do not constitute an open hatred for Israel. Most Egyptians don’t really think about it that much. Rallies for Palestine are far from common, and when they do happen, usually after an exceptionally tragic Israeli human rights violation, they draw aaround 2-10,000 people. Not even a drop in the bucket of a Cairo of 16 million.
However here we are seeing an educated, powerful Israeli politician who can drive foreign policy calling Egypt basically an enemy state. That is ridiculous.
Sinai is as Egyptian as any other part of Egypt. To pretend it’s separate from “Egypt proper” is rather offensive. Most employees at Egyptian tourist resorts in Sharm and Hurghada and El Gouna are Egyptians, not Bedouin.
Hm, and I take it the same doesn’t apply for Israel?
Hard to believe, considering the amount of time and money that’s invested in PR campaigns and strategies in Israel.
I’m going to have to agree with Patrick that this was uncalled for. Dismissing Egypt as an enemy state is a grave error.
I wish people would just end this paranoia.
Until when are you going to understand the obvious fact that we, collectively as Arab nations, pose no threat considering your huge military and democratic structure? Are you really self-important enough to think that we sit around all day plotting your destruction when we have our own problems to deal with? I live in Bahrain. Most of us couldn’t give two shits about Israel despite the fact that we just LOVE to talk about it. It distracts us from our own messed up politics and political culture. What you hear in the media is not what actually happens. I’ve witnessed anti-Israeli protests before – they are not large. In fact, I’ve never counted more than a few hundred, as opposed to the thousands that show up when it comes to local protests about our local politics. Most of them happen to be kids, and corrupt religious leaders that we all loathe anyways. Are you going to allow these people to represent us entirely?
Religious clerics like to shout anti-Israeli remarks. Big deal, do you think they have the power and money required to actually do something about it? The guy who says these things in my village is a half wit who lives in a dump. Spewing hatred is his way of gaining more attention and supporters for his mosque. He says things just as bad towards Sunnis, you don’t see me running around claiming that he wants to kill me, even though his violent remarks imply that he’d do it. I don’t mind him. He knows many of us living in the village are Sunnis and it’s not like he gives a crap. Nor do we, for that matter. We ignore him. He ignores us. His hatred helps him gain supporters. Big deal. I got over it.
Sure, you as an Israeli have to deal with nasty things, but we deal with it just as much especially from Iran and neighbouring countries. That aside – Look at the way America portrays Arab Muslims worldwide – you think we don’t go through these feelings day in, day out? Many people have to physically put up with this in many parts of the world. You don’t just label an entire nation your “enemy” and then claim that you said so because everyone is after you. The Israeli official who labeled Egypt as an enemy state didn’t state such a thing because of self-defense, this is based on pure and baseless hatred. It’s such a paranoid way of thinking. Try to live your life without categorizing states, nations, and beliefs as “evil” as if everyone wants your destruction. Most of us just want to live in peace, much to your dismay. Does that make us so different? Do you think we’d actually gain anything from your destruction? Furthermore, do you think a few clerics and a few protests here and there actually represent the majority?
This isn’t magic island where everyone says what you want them to say. Media outlets everywhere are messed up, and that includes the Israeli media which apparently thrives on fear-mongering and the same amount of hatred that it loves to whine about. No one said it’s accurate, but based on what many Israelis are running around saying, it’s really messed up and quite frankly I feel very sorry for those who completely rely on it.
Nasty and insane people are everywhere regardless of their race, nationality, culture, and religion. Deal with it. Someone, somewhere is going to want you dead. This much is true for all of us here. We face threats, abuse, harrassment, and mostly from our own people too. Stop generalizing and claiming that everyone believes what the Israeli media says we believe. Also, stop making it seem as if you’re the only nation that has to deal with it, especially when you completely contradict yourself by resorting to evil labels and stigmas. At least feel safe in the knowledge that it’s not people in your village who ask for your death.
Israel enforces the use of different color license plates that restrict where West Bank and Gazan Arabs can go.
Israel builds “by-pass” roads for “Jews only.” I seen documentaries where Arabs had to wait days to cross roads. What the hell wrong with this picture? I even heard of tragic news about pregnant women or seriously ill people dying waiting to get to a hospital on one of these road crossings.
Dear Mr Racoon,
Is this not the policy of the Israeli government? Tell me if it’s not true.
LOL, you guys get worked up so easily, it’s unbelievable
Patrick – uhm. For me, “Rider without a horse” is enough. And we both know that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Philadelphi Route became less secure by far since Israeli relinquished control over it to Egypt. Weapon smuggling has intensified tremendously.
I do not agree with Steinitz, generally… but he has a few very good points on Egypt in that article.
Oh, and Egypt itself identifies Sinai as not exactly Egypt. I don’t need a visa to go to Sinai… but I do if I want to get past Ras a-Shaitan.
*shrugs*
Esra’a -
“Hm, and I take it the same doesn’t apply for Israel?”
Yup. Israel seldom invests in PR against something, unless it’s an Israeli politician.
And I do not just label nations as enemies.
And frankly, I am amazed at the preoccupation of Arab/Muslim states with Israel and Jews. It’s just strange.
And the fact that practically ALL the Arab/Muslim states attacked Israel at least once for no practical reason + the fact that most of these states remain officially at war with Israel… well, it kinds of convinces me that for some reason, Arab/Muslim states are indeed preoccupied with Israel.
And why do you think I am generalizing or thinking whole nations are my enemy?
LOL, you’re just so quick to take offense
And the Israeli media doesn’t say anything about what “you” (whoemever that might be) believe. Unless “you” are the Israeli public. Israeli media is amazingly self-centered.
Sorry if I’ve lost coherence… I finished writing this talkback along with a nice joint. So, uhm, sorry if I wrote anything untoward or incomprehensible
No one took offense, we’re just outraged. I guess when you have no real defense, a ‘LOL’ is something worth resorting to.
Bullshit. When Israel does it, which it does a LOT, it’s “information.” When we do it, it’s “propaganda.”
That’s just obvious bias. At least make an effort to hide it.
It’s not any less disturbing than the fact that many Israelis love to brag about this. Seems like both nations don’t have much else to do than just sit around and make it about “me, me, me!”
I say everyone just needs to get over their arrogance and deal with the fact that human nature makes certain things impossible. Stop complaining and live your life the way it’s supposed to be lived, without hating and fear-mongering and slapping petty labels on otherwise innocent or defenseless people. Seriously, you’d be doing everyone, including yourself, a fat favor.
Yup, Pakistan attacked Israel for no reason and is at war with Israel. Same for Afghanistan, Indonesia… ahh forget it…
Jina-
The lic. plates and checkpoints would not have to be there if some of the drivers and pedestrians would just quit blowing themselves up in the malls.
The bypass was built primarily at the insistence of the Palestinians.
About 1.5 million Arabs drive around Israel with the same nice little yellow lic. plates.
Jina…don’t turn that part of the conflict into some kind of race-based action. It is about preventing terrorism…and it prevents a whole lot of terrorism. You might get stats. on how many acts are perpetrated, but you get no info. on the many many many more that have been caught.
So this is not about “harrassment” for jollies. Even Arafat once said “the Israelis are obessessed with security”. Might be the only true thing that fuck ever said.
Don’t forget Bahrain, Qatar, and Oman too. Oh yeah, those huge air strikes over Tel Aviv? Unforgettable.
Tunisia and Mauritania are also HUGE threats to Israel. Seriously. Oh, and Djibouti? Add them to the list. Morocco, too. Big threats. Huge. Larger-than-life. I don’t know how the Israelis can handle it.
Being the only democracy in the Middle East must be a living nightmare.
These attacked happened as a reaction to terrorism. People don’t just blow themselves up for fun, you see.
And I assume what Israel does is in no way “terrorism”? Oh right, they call it “self-defense.” Thanks, that justifies horrid crimes against humanity.
By the way…I tend to stand somewhere between Patrick and Raccoon. I think stability in Egypt hangs by a thread. Do I believe your average Joe Egyptian sits around all day thinking about frying Israelis like falafel…no I don’t. But a good deal of hatred spews out of Egypt and if only 10% really would like our throats, that is still close to two million.
It is a cold peace not a warm one. I also read an interesting poll about Jordanians where it was noted that 90% report anti-semetic feelings.
We ARE paranoid…I am and I am probably as open-minded as they come. I have personally experienced some nasty things with Arabs, on more than one occasion, that have lead me to believe this is more than the feelings of just a few. And I am talking about Jew-hate…not just the standard “we have nothing against Jews or even Israelis, we just don’t like their government”.
I can add that I have also had wonderful interactions with Arabs (Esra’a being near #1) and Muslims, esp. many Iranians I know, but those several nasty experiences and the memory of our long history of misery does leave me quite suspicious
I don’t blame you for being paranoid Howie. We all are. I would say the majority of Arabs and Muslims feel just as lost and paranoid, I just don’t think it’s right to constantly state that Arabs exist with the sole mission to kill. There’s a difference between calling a state an enemy, and then an entire nation an “enemy,” and I think many Israelis cross that line.
The whole point of this site is to highlight the difference between ‘state’ and ‘nation.’ Israelis are not our enemy, and Arabs who think so should start believing otherwise. Israel has some horrid policies, that much most Arabs can agree with. But the Israeli nation is not responsible for that, and should NOT be held responsible for that. It is not fair at all for us to shun them from our world.
When the site gets bigger, you’ll be amazed at how many like-minded Arabs exist. They were just never given the forum to make their voices heard. Media bias, especially within the Israeli and Arab media, makes a lot of things impossible to hear. The internet has chagned that, we can transcend such mediums and focus on this powerful one which we can use to prove powerful statements.
Aww thanks Howie, you know I always love talking to you.
Jew-hate is huge, you don’t see me denying it. But so is Shiite hate, Sunni hate, Druze hate, etc which everyone seems to ignore. Sunnis and Shiites are commiting horrific crimes against each other, discriminating against each other, etc, why doesn’t this get reported? Why are we so limited to what our front page of the news says? Why is it just the Jews who are going through fear and pain? This new Muslim generation is incredibly lost and confused, and it’s dealing with it through violence. That’s where our focus should be, to save ourselves from a huge civil war.
In any case, Jew-hate was the point behind ME Faith. I gave more voice to Jews there for a reason. They deserve one considering the shit they’ve been put through, especially in Arab lands and Iran. But we can’t highlight their misery and forget the many other crimes happening in the name of religion too – especially within Islam itself (as opposed to BY Islam towards another religion.)
I am addressing Jews in general, based on your comment and it is not addressed to you personally so don’t say I am not Jew bla bla bla…
First one of these people blew up after 40 years of your occupation of their land. There are cause and effect, cause is your occupation and effect is the suicide bombers. This won’t happen if you pull back to your fucking border. Hamas was created because of your occupation and I can list almost every single militant groups there. You you you you you you you jew it’s your fault you started it… and you fix it and don’t expect the suicide bomber to stop till you get the fuck out of their land. NO I am not telling you to go away… Just pull back to your original border.
Step out of your bubble, it is a race based issue. The problem in Palestine is race based, you treat Christians the same way you treat Muslims. You treat my gf’s mother, who is an Israeli Christian Arab, the same way you treat a Muslim terrorist. Jews are not angels who are incapable of faults. Get that mentality out of your head.
Esra’a-
I wish there was a way I could send you a boquet of flowers. In fact…if you would just convert to Judaism…I have two very good-looking sons who I bet are right about you age
I have a nice Arab with, the little half-breeds should too don’t you think
On a less serious note…you are doing a wonderful thing and if we all did not have our spates and differences…we would not need this blog would we?
Mas salama
Your age
Arab wife…not with along I am with wife
although not along…geez I can’t write a sentence
Hahahah.
Thanks for the kind words, it’s people like you who keep these initiatives successful.
Jina-
No Jina…the first terror attack did not start after 40 years of occupation…the first one that comes to mind was the Druse riots in Safed about 120 years ago…then there were murderous riots in Hebron long before there was any Jewish state in the 1920′s.
Then long 20 years before the 67 borders which, thank you, you are now granting us. in 48 when the UN partitioned the land and the Jews were given a sliver, which they accepted, they were attacked by Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Transjordan. There were also terrorist attacks from fedeyeen coming out of Egypt long before those 67 borders you refer to>
You see, even back in 48 if the Arabs would have accepted the UN agreement and gave this little slice…there would be no Palestinian problem, no terror or need for counter terror, thousands of both Arabs and Jews alike would be living or not walking around blind, crippled etc. You left that part of the history out Jina…very convenient of you.
Regarding this comment of yours:
“You you you you you you you jew it’s your fault you started it”
Are we starting to show our true colors now? You see Esra’a, this is the Jew’s fear. That somewhere under any talk of peace or compromise the other party is really thinking; “You you you you you you you jew it’s your fault you started it”. That is the paranoia…and with good reason as you can see.
But in spite of all this…I realize that there is sufficient blame. Esra’a, if I were king, I would be willing to give up land etc. But can you blame me if I had a hard time trusting those that behind the handshakes just might be thinking along the lines of; ” You you you you you you you jew it’s your fault you started it”???
Would you feel confident if YOU were king…ah er…queen?
Raccoon, Rider without a HOrse is one miniseries that was aired. It was financed by a private production company and was carried on Egyptian networks. It was not particularly successful. If we are to carry on your assumptions about Egyptians it would be the only thing they ever watched. But it wasn’t. Soap operas that entertain viewers can’t be used as examples of propaganda. Saying Egypt wants to destroy Israel because of a TV show is like saying America hates Muslims based on the show “Sleeper Cell,” which depicts Muslims in a negative light just like the Egyptian show depicts Jews in a negative light.
BTW, I’m not Muslim and I actually enjoy “Sleeper Cell” a lot, but that’s not the point.
120 years ago… is it just me or is it when the racist Zionist ideology was born? 1920 was when the European immigrants from came to Palestine and settled and the British helped them settle by using their military might. Bahh… I would kill to if my land was given to some foreigner while I was treated like an animal in my own land.
I am not the other party. I have nothing to do with your mess. I am an outsider.
Ignoramus
Jina-
The Druse riots were around 1848…about 40 years before the Eurpean Jews started to dribble in…Jews had always lived in Safed…as they had always lived in Jerusalem and Hebron.
And Palestine belonged to the Turks from around 1517 to 1917 and then the Brits.
And lots of peolpe have been taking land. Who did the Turks take it from…and the Marmalukes, and Syrians and Assyrians and Crusaders, and Greeks and Romans and and and all the other places? Who did the Hashamites take there land from. Iraqis from Kurdistan. France from Lebanon and on and on. These kinds of problems are not particular to that little postage stamp of a land.
So…we got to try working something out both you and: “You you you you you you you jew”
Outraged, worked up, same thing. Either way, it’s completely unhelpful and doesn’t facilitate discussion. It’s like getting angry during a poker game.
And it is funny to watch someone do something completely irrelevant out of the blue.
“Bullshit. When Israel does it, which it does a LOT, it’s “information.†When we do it, it’s “propaganda.—
Hmmm. So Israel has a book describing the Eeeevil Arabs’(tm) taking over the world as a bestseller, like the Protocols? And another book describing Eeeevil Arabs’(tm) as some sort of vermin who are responsible for every single woe of the world and must be eradicated, like Mein Kampf, as another one?
Or caricatures like this routinely appearing in the media, only against Arabs?
Or maybe massive festivities like “World without Muslims” are organized in Israel?
There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, to equal this in any Israeli media. Including the ultra-right channels.
Sorry, but Palestinians are not a “race”. They are Arabs, mostly, with some other races thrown in (Edomites are my favorite).
“Jews are not angels who are incapable of faults.” – duh. Hunams are all equally fucked up. This is exactly the point – not angels, and certainly not demons.
Oh Gods… not these myths again.
“is it just me or is it when the racist Zionist ideology was born?”
Can you in some way substantiate this insult? How is self-determination for the Jewish people racist, again?
“the British helped them settle by using their military might”
The same British that limited Jewish immigration to Israel to a laughable trickle? The same British that killed Jews for sport? The same British Jews fought against? The same British that made the White Paper in 1939? Riiiight. Yup. You’re absolutely correct.
The first suicide bombing against Jews was in 1947. Triple truck bombing, IIRC.
“Ignoramus”
Indeed.
What, you mean introducing your utter paranoia into the discussion?
THE NINJA ARABZ WILL GET U, WE ALL WANT U KILLED!!1
Seriously, it’s the most laughable mentality ever. When are you going to accept the fact that Israelis lead much better lives than most Arabs and Muslims, many thanks to your democratic structure and Israel being home to the 4th biggest military in the world? I feel sorry for anyone who continues to play the role of the victim when they’re sitting at the comfort of their home taking advantage of their great freedoms, something you should be proud of instead of struggling for media supremacy. It’s really sick watching people group entire nations into the “enemy” category, and I say this to both sides. Paranoia and fighting to be seen as the “victim” does nothing to help or appease the situation. Admit the fact that the conflict is horrible for both sides and move on. You get attacked in your own land, fine, so do most of us. Our domestic violence doesn’t even MAKE the news, let alone get a chance to shape it. Yet, I do not see half the amount of paranoia I see coming from certain Israelis (thankfully not most, based on my experience.) Maybe I’m just lucky enough to meet the right level-headed Israelis who have no problem admitting their faults.
I agree, but I hate it when peopel imply or talk like Jews are immune from faults. It’s annoying and irritating.
Most Jews I met worship Churchill and praise the Brits. WTF wrong with that picture? This pisses me off because Brits are bigger murderers than the Nazis. Brits killed more where I came from then the all the Jews and the others who were killed in the concentration camps. You should teach your fellow Jews this little information. Anyways this is off topic so lets get back to the topic.
Not a race, but a different ethnicity. Calling them “Arabs” is funny too because people call French as white and English as white but they are not the same ethnic group, are they? Why is it that if you are a non-white you can be considered so many different things but for everyone else you are either black, Arab, Indian, Chinese etc… annoying.
Palestinians generally have a lot against Arabs, anyways. Especially those from the Gulf. Talk to Palestinian refugees in the area and you’ll know why.
There’s no such thing as pan-Arab. Arabs are very intellectually diverse, we have never agreed on a common concept or ideology except for when media outlets do their “Arabs this, Arabs that.” Which Arabs? Arab leaders have all tried to assassinate each other at one point or another. We all hate and back-stab each other. It’s not very often that we ever voice “collective” opinions.
But nooo, Arabs are all one big clan and they love to unite against Israel. Especially when Qatar houses an Israeli official and Bahrain is actually in talks with opening its gates to Israelis and vice versa. Jordan’s way up Israel’s ass and continues to seek better relations. What a conspiracy, right?
Esra’a – LOL about the Ninja Arabz (now you can bash me for laughing
). Can I steal the expression?
Look, it’s not my fault that Arab/Muslim media (official AND unofficial) does it’s best to present a unified pan-Muslim front of psychotic hatred against Israel. It’s like a secret code or something: “blah blah death to israel blah blah jooz are evil blah blah. And now a brief commercials break.” I am a paranoid critter by nature, stuff like this stresses me out.
So most Israelis don’t feel like victims – they feel like there are lots of people in the Muslim/Arab world that would like to MAKE them victims.
Jina – uhm. Where do you come from that the Brits killed over 8 million people?
Basically, Brits get respect and having a highly advanced civilization which contributed much to humanity. Churchill is respected for his stance on the whole Nazi thing, and for leading his country through some of its most difficult years.
On the other hand, the Brits are disliked for their colonial policy and for their imperial arrogance. And Churchill is disliked for being a moron. I think he was a kind of an idiot savant – brilliant in some respects, a total cretin in many others. Which is why many veterans of the Jewish Legion fought against the British later on.
And from an ethnic POV, Palestinians are a huge mess of different tribes from all over the Islamic world with locals thrown in. Every city is like a different state, and every clan a different ethnicity. Frankly, the Western distinctions of ethnicity/nationality do not apply to most of the world, I think.
But this is really irrelevant to the discussion
Esra’a – yeah, I know that practically all the Arab states which received Palestinian ‘fugees in ’48 treated and still treat them like dirt. Which is kind of strange.
“Jordan’s way up Israel’s ass”… give me a second to erase this obscene homoerotic image from my mind… ok, there we go.
Arab/Muslim media bashes Israel in pretty much the same way, using the same talking points and the same imagery. Which creates the impression that no matter how much Arabs in general hate other Arabs, they all hate Jews more.
Pity about the joint Israeli/Jordanian airport, BTW. Could have been tremendously profitable to Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
OK, let me sum it all up:
Hunams are pretty nasty critters, broadly speaking.
The diverse Arab/Muslim media presents a fairly unified front against Israel, giving the distinct impression that Arabs/Muslims want Israel destroyed.
This makes lots of Israelis very nervous and suspicious about Arabs.
OK? We cool? Or am I going to be virtually bitten again?
Esra’a-
Rac. makes an important point here:
“The diverse Arab/Muslim media presents a fairly unified front against Israel, giving the distinct impression that Arabs/Muslims want Israel destroyed.
This makes lots of Israelis very nervous and suspicious about Arabs. ”
Remember…most of us are not hanging around blogs like this or even know they exist. And I bet most of us get most of our information from the same place most Muslims get theirs…places like Al Jeezera.
I have seen this myself and from ARAB news sources…groups of protestors shouting the poetic hyperboles “we will kill them with our swords and spill their blood etc.”
Now folks like me and Raccoon try to look at things from different sides and we know Arabs are not a monolith anymore than Jews are. But the prevailing picture from the Muslim world that is READILY ACCESSIBLE to most of the non-Muslim world looks very negative…and it is produced by “you” (i.e. the Muslim world and government itself).
Like Esra’a…I actively seek out experiences that challenge my views and mainstream info. However…most people do not.
That is what makes work like Esra’a's so vital. I hope this point is clearly understood. Much of the negative picture we get of Muslims is actually generated by the Muslim media and leaders themselves. We don’t hardly ever get exposed to Esra’a's of the world. I am 55, I have been seeking this stuff out , but until the Internet and more recently, blogging, there was no access to the Left, the Moderates, the questioners. Just about NOTHING.
And I know you have been lied to about us. It sounds like a cliche, but it is true, my buddy Mohamed told me that when he was studying Islam is Egypt they were taught that Jews are ” pigs and apes”. He is from Sudan and never MET a Jew until he became a refugee and moved to the USA.
So there is much to teach and learn.
Make that over 12 million and that’s the low number and this is just one of their many genocides. Over 50,000 women children from my own clan were slaughtered by the Brits and that was after WWI when that scum Churchill was in charge.I’ll tell you something, history is told by the victors. Trust me if Nazis had won WW2, we would have been lead to believe that the Jews were evil blab la bla… keep this in mind.
He was also once a supporter of the Nazis and he was also one of the biggest advocate of British Empire… an opportunistic scum.
Bloody link didn’t work, I DIN’T come up with that over 8 million shit, it’s like me saying where did you come up with that 6 million Jews shit… you are denying a genocide the Brits commited. You will call me a nazi bla bla racist bla bla bla and cry your hearts out if I denied it.
http://www.thehindu.com/2005/12/28/stories/2005122804961100.htm
Do I also have to say that Churchill is at the top of the tyrant list when it comes to gassing the Kurds? I think Saddam is the last. Saddam… looks like a baby compared to this scum and you Jews worship Churchill… and you have problem with Arabs reading Hitlers little book. Fucking hypocrites… you are the worst.
Jina-
In the spirit of peace and concilliation, we would like to thank you for all your kind and insightful input.
We certainly know what you are made of.
In the spirit of peace and concilliation, we would like to thank you for all your kind and insightful input.
How typical, dismissing the genocide by the Brits while crying over what the Nazis did to you. Bahhh and we certainly know what you are made of also.
Jina-
No…I am referring to your swearing and name calling as opposed to trying to actually teach us something useful…and maybe making an attempt to learn something.
Here we are trying to open doors, not shut them with vicious personal attacks.
I can say the same thing for you.
Screw everything, lets start over.
Answer this questions as best as you can.
Why does the Jews glorify the victors of WW2 when these victors were responsible for even bigger genocides?
The way you do this is smiler to me building a statue for Hitler and worshiping him. How would that makes you feel? How would you feel if i glorify the Nazi as the liberators of ______. etc…
Thanks for wanting to start over, let’s keep this civil.
Ok let’s start over…
Jina you are a racist son of a bitch hatemonger….;)….just kidding…
Have to get back to your questions later…but yes…I suggest we keep the name-calling for a different venue and attempt to share, teach and learn here.
F..king Arabs…
Just kidding
Some questions answered:
1) Why “does the Jews” (nice Freudian slip of racism there, btw, singular verb for a plural noun) glorify the victors of WWII when the British did atrocities elsewhere?
Because the elsewhere is little known and far away, while the victors of WWII (which included India, btw) collectively saved the European Jewish population from extinction. I wasn’t there but I would probably glorify anyone who saved me from extinction. Yes, we know people can be rotten, even the British: the Prison Barge Memorial in NYC reminds us of that. But we let the past go, after a while. And that’s a good thing. Today, Israel and Germany have friendly relations.
2) As to glorifying the nazis for anything- who exactly did they liberate, and from what? The Ukrainians WERE willing to glorify them, until they learned the Nazis were WORSE than Stalin, not better. Jina, bear in mind, the Holocaust did not only target Jews. Hitler tried to wipe out all the Gypsies too, and killed 1.5 million of them. The Gypsies call it “the Devouring”. The Gypsies don’t have the great social/arts/media contacts of the Jews, so their stories aren’t as often told, but guess what ethnic roots the Gypsies have, Jina.
3) Israel tried living behind their 1948 borders, back in 1948, and they were rewarded with attempted genocide. Let’s not press them for being a little suspicious today.
4) That being the case, when some nutbar goes off on a rant, remember that in any parliamentary government you get a broad range of opinion, and any one particular expression, no matter how insane, is not the official position of the government. Same goes for Egypt, Lebanon, Iran… if the US declared states to be “enemy” after a nut or two got loose and said bad things, most of the world would be burned out radioactive waste by now. Even Canada. Forgive foul words.
5) Esra’a, there is no excuse, no justification, no possible rationalization of a suicide bomber other than pure hatred and evil. Not even a “whose land is it” dispute. The border dispute can only be worked out between reasonable people- and to claim the other side is unreasonable merely for having the dispute is itself unreasonable. The Peace Process, any true peace process anywhere, means first accepting that the other side actually has points that must be heard out and addressed. And THAT cannot be done unless one first accepts the basic, equivalent humanity of the other side. This can be done in the context of walls and checkpoints and guards- we all know those things are there to prevent murder. It cannot be done in an atmosphere of constant threat of random murder.
There is a thing known to organized crime lords about power. What seperates the truly successful mob boss from the common thug is this: anyone can use violence, but if youhave true power you can garantee that violence will NOT be used. Every member of the Mafia knew that if the Godfather said a person was not be harmed, that person was safe. The problem in Palestine is that the rising power has no interest in seeing violence end, and neither do its backers. To many have too much invested in the continuation of violence.
Ben
This is getting out of hand. Can you all please go through one post where you don’t accuse each other of being racists?!
And Ben, English is not Jina’s first language. This is a common grammatical error and to call it ‘racist’ is absurd.
You do however feel the need to justify IDF’s horrid crimes against humanity, right? Why are Israeli crimes done in self-defense and Palestinian crimes are done due to pure hatred?
You need to admit the fact that both sides, not just one, go through crap. And dare I say, judging by the death tolls, Palestinians seem to go through more crap than your average Israeli citizen. Israelis need to stop posing as the only pouty victims in this conflict.
Also, try to argue without throwing the term “racist” around like a dodge ball.
I don’t get it is it suppose to be funny?
So what’s your problem with Arabs reading Hitler’s book? Get my point now?
Admit it that you are wrong for glorying certain people and move on. Admit it now that you know. Again you now know, so why keep at it?
But nope, you won’t do that. And you call me racist, and you cry when someone denies the holocaust even though you are denying a much bigger genocide. This is the point I am trying to get to you.
India didn’t exist at the end of WWII so I don’t know what you are talking about and after the creation of Israel, India’s official policy didn’t recognize Israel till roughly 20 years ago.
Europe is not the world. Please, for a sec get the Eurocentric view off of your mind.
Do you know why so many people in the Arab world and South Asia sided with the Nazis? Nazis promised them that they would liberate them from the British. Have you seen the picture of Bose with Nazi uniform or do you know why the nationalists in South Asia aided the Japanese? Do you know who Bose was?
Yes yes yes I know they killed Communists, homosexuals, Romas… it’s Roma, Gypsy is racist term in itself and I know where their ancestors came from.
1948 was how many years ago and what year is it now? We are in a different century and a different millennia. Drop the victim mentality and stop using the deaths of millions of Jews to justify your tyranny now.
Sucide bombing is an act of desperation. You can only live so long in a refugee camp. And ya to what Esra’a said. Why is it that when an IDF soldier empties an entire magazine into a defenceless 13 year old girl it’s called self defence, but when a suicide bomber… after witnessing his/her family/friend being killed by another IDF is a…
Come on if you want to make an argument make a logical one and stop contradicting yourself.
Stop accusing me of being a racist when you are doing the same.
This is because India wanted Arabs to side with it in the Indo-Pakistani war.
Nobody said it better than our very own Rodney King during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots:
“Can’t we all just get along?”
Esra’a….do you remeber what I wrote you about the initial stages of reconcilliation? About “punctuation of history”?
This is pretty much what it looks like and with moderating voices here and there, though some of the more passionate my never change, we will deal with issues more often and ultimately less with emotion. Damnit
That sounds like a more fitting quote.
Esra’a-
Rome wasn’t built in a day…We have been squabbling since Sarah and Hagar so there is a whole lot of history to spit at each other.
Personal attacks are understandable but serve no constructive purpose.
Hopefully, this blog will take on more of an exploration and sharing mood as opposed to debate.
Debate never did anything for me…because it primarily about word and question skills and “I got yeh there”, but does not necessarily lead us to anything useful. In fact, usually just pisses people off and makes them more defended. But we will slip into that of course.
For one, though I obviously see cause and history much differently than say, Jina, I recognize clearly that the “other side” has grivances and not everything is fair or just…wow big surprise there.
So likely we will do a lot more finger pointing along the line. But my ultimate hope is that we can find a better way…
You have shown intellectual courage and the ability to criticize your own…i.e. you are seeking truth in all the shadows.
You have done an excellent job.
For DB and Patrick:
This was printed in an ISRAELI newspaper…so it ain’t so simple as one politician popping off his mouth
“Mubarak says deal for Shalit’s release in final stages
Says Egypt made great efforts to find solution, but “other parties interven[ed] against the interest of the Palestinian people.”"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881836433&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
There are all kinds of Israel’s and all kinds of views.
*sigh*
What a mess. Just chill, people, honestly. Have a joint. Have a quiet time of prayer to Allah. Do some pranayama or something. Go to the gym and beat the stuffing out of a punching bag.
All this rage sort of interferes with communication.
Jina – did you actually read the link you’ve provided about the girl?
And if you did, do you honestly believe that a guy making a mistake in a warzone, in the middle of an operation (knowing full well that children were used as suicide bombers by various Palestinian gangs) is the same as a man who purposefully goes out to kill civilians in their homes?
Esra’a – IDF’s “horrid crimes against hunamity”? Uhm… like what?
Unethical behavior happens in IDF… usually out of stupidity or fear (a nervous soldier opening fire when he shouldn’t have, for instance. Happens relatively often – most active-duty soldiers are jumpy teenagers, basically). Seldom, just plain evil behavior happens – evil people exist, and even IDF profiling cannot weed ALL the psychos out. Usually it is reported and punished. Sometimes it is hushed by the criminal’s friends – a negative side effect of the soldiers’ brotherhood. But “horrid crimes against hunamity”?
Interesting story about British action in India. I have a significant interest in India’s culture and history – spent a fair deal of time there, it’s one of my most favorite places on Earth – and I have never heard of it. The worst English action in India I heard of from any source is the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, where according to highest estimates some 1200 people were machinegunned.
Can you point to any reliable sources online about the famine?
And again… chill… shanti…
Salaam
Raccoon, just goto Google and type Bengali famine and remember there are 2 of them, both accredited to the Brits. I am talking about the latest one because that is more relevant and it happened around the same time Jews were being butchered by the Nazis.
1200 one is nothing, but it is the much publicized one. My clan, like said before, lost over 50,000 members in a systematic eradication by the Brits. They didn’t even spare the women or the children. They killed everyone, almost everyone, some survived hence I am here.
I see no different between the Nazis or the Brits or the French or the Dutch or the Spanish or whom ever were responsible for any kind of genocide. Jews consider few of them as heroes… I want to throw up.
Stop saying you don’t no.
You know but refusing to admit it. Kind of like the Arabs/Muslims who worship the suicide bombers who blow up cafe filled with civilians. But of course when they do it they are evil, but it’s okay for you to treat those who killed more peopel than the Nazis as heros? Reality check is in order for you if you think this way.
Refute based on what I said. Don’t change the subject.
If you deny these atrocities, then it’s like me denying the Holocaust. Remember that and have fun.
Raccoon-
One of the consistent ways I see Israeli actions being attacked is essentially based on the concept of “moral relativism”. I know Jina will attack me on this and call me names or whatever, but it still needs to be said.
Moral relativism would say, basicaly, that all wars, all cruelity, all torture, all killing of children, all restriction of rights…it is all the same thing…equvialent…no gradiations.
Now let’s just take….say torture. Let’s say two crazy Jews sneak into Gaza with a plan to blow up a pre-school full of kids. One guy gets caught…the other one, disgused, is on his way.
In one hour…boom. So you torture the guy to get him to tell. I could argue it would be immoral NOT to torture him.
Then I remember an interview withan Israeli prisoner of war. It was after 73 there was a truce etc. but the exhanges had not happened. One of the “games” was to tell him he was to be executed…blind fold him…put him against the wall and then shoot bullets near his head. To make it interesting…a few guys did get shot…so this, of course, added to the excitement.
Both are cases of torture, cruelty, but are the morally equvalent?
So in terms of Israeli actions in Gaza etc. If the intent was maximal civilian casualities…with tanks, jets, missles that can take out whole city blocks, chemical weapons etc., it would seem the casuality rate would be higher.
Many here will not want to hear, but can you talk just a bit about your training about hitting civilians. My nephew just recently left the IDF…didn’t shoot anybody. But he explain the protocols which are strict.
Does it get brutal…well it is a war….kind of a war of attrition, but a war. But the killing, by training and policy, is directed at military targets. Yes, civilians get hurt, even on purpose at time.
However, the difference is that the overall POLICY of groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and several offshoots of Fatah has long been to MAXimalize civilian targets. Though they have certain gone after soldiers, most actions have been aimed at pizza palors, busses, schools, ice cream joints, night clubs, resturants (including the very cynical attack on the Maxim, becasue Arabs and Jews worked closely and soicalized there so much).
So are the Jews “perfect”? Nope…
Have they hurt people? Yep
Have we, as a policy, targeted civilian populations? Nope
Has terror been a salient policy of many Palestinian groups? Yep
Israel’s actions are not just defensive…they are also pre-emptive, sometimes for revenge and occaionally the work of a looney.
I have yet to see a well-supported, organized approach from the Palestinian side that strongly renounces terrorism. Abbas seems to be giving it a shot, but he is profoundly opposed.
So who do we make peace with?
Jina – ye Gods, mate, I just told you I don’t know. Sorry, but I am not going to start accusing the British of being worse than Nazis based on your impassioned words. I will first look into this matter since I know absolutely nothing about the Bengali famine – except for what you’ve said and the one brief article you’ve provided via the link.
Just shanti… let me read about it for a bit, OK? You are not under attack… so please, I beg of you, don’t be so defensive, it’s not doing anyone any good.
Nobody refuted your words, or changed the subject… I presume that everybody else is just as ignorant of the Bengali famine as myself. Claiming that we all know everything about it and are just ignoring it on purpose is… weird, man. I am really sorry about your clan, but hey, trust me – I am not in on any conspiracy to glorify the British or something. Honestly.
My interest in India’s history was pretty narrowed down to Maghada, Hoysala, Vijayanagara, Independence and semi-mythical times (Ramayana and Mahabharata, mostly – the former was one of my most favorite books when I was a cub).
So… please… chill… shanti… thank you for pointing my attention to this, I will research and reach conclusions.
Yup, pre-emptive. A suicide bomber blowing him/herself up is pre-emptive because you know… every Israeli Jew will have to take part in the IDF so you know… they pre-emptivly take out a cafe full of them. See where your logic fails?
Work of a loony ehh? sigh.. we are going back in circiles now. We are back to where it started.
Jew kills Arab = Jew was a lone loony, a bla bla bla
Arab kill Jew = Evil doer was intending to… bla bla bla EVIL bla bla bla EVIL…
Don’t you ever get tired of this shit?
No one wants to talk to you if you are holding a gun to their head. Remove that gun and they will talk.
YOU STILL DIDN’T ADDRESS MY QUESTIONS. STOP DODGING IT.
Jina-
I wasn’t trying to answer your questions directly…but I have something entirely aside from the topic…
You are Bengali? If so…I just finished a book by a Bengali man who ultimately helped develop the technology for Lasic eye surgery. If your English is not perfect, parts of it could be a hard read because he gets into some lofty stuff.
It is called : Code Name: God : The Spiritual Odyssey of a Man of Science
Code Name: God : The Spiritual Odyssey of a Man of Science by Mani Bhaumik (Hardcover – May 1, 2005)
It is fascinating. Raccoon and Esra’a I think would also enjoy it. Not a dang thing in it about the ME…but an amazing story with a very interesting approach to the concept of God.
I am not Bengali. My Ingrish is good… I grew up in Canada o.O…
That sounds booooring… I am more into art or design or history.
Ah hah!
I was wondering “aboot” you…
That’s very stereotypical ignorance. It’s like me saying all Americans run around armed to the teeth with guns. To tell you the truth, I have yet to encounter a Canadian who say abooot or ehhh and I been living here for over 13+ years.
So, I have read or skimmed EVERY reply in this, because I am interested in getting to know you folks. Geeee, almost 8PM
I would say that I see some truth, and I can generally get where all of you are coming from.
CONFESSION TIME: I will admit that I have said some critical things about Jewish history in the Forum w. Andgaroux (what is his name?). And after reading Ben, Howie and Raccoon, I have a better understanding, sympathy for the Israeli point of view…. so,,, it is really difficult to forget or forgive if there is no trust.
If trust doesn’t exist, then I don’t think ANY headway will be made between Palestine and Israel. Another war or two, to tire people out? Will the Bahai shrines and gardens be blown to bits, maybe. After all they are only bits of rock and so forth….
No one has mentioned the next world. Just for the sake of arguement, Bahais believe that we will retain “some form” of personality with our soul, but I think nationality is not part of our personality. In the next world there will be no American, Caucasian, Jew, Arab. Russian, etc. and no anger, or other negative emotions, well emotions as such will not exist. So my point is that all the Holocost victims and all the suicide bombers will exist “together” without any hangups. Not loving and kissing one another, because there are no bodies. But all doubt, all distrust will be irrevelant, disappear. We will totally accept our “state”, and move on from there, trying to improve our souls…
Basically I am saying it sounds like too much importance is being placed on this world, the dirt… material things. Yes there is justice, that we should work towards, but ALL things have to be considered. And who are you or me to consider ALL things? What happened ten minutes ago , to make an exaggeration is almost irrevelant. Because in someone’s distrustful eyes, there is no excuse, and in another perons’ equally distrustful eyes, there is every justification. Get it? This is why I’m saying why not live for the next world, do what you can here and now, this moment and prepare to move on.
Bahais often say, ALL of us are part of the “Twilight Generation”. This means we, mankind generally, are not in the darkness of living like animals according to kill or be killed, but neither has the morning light reached generally into our hearts.
I sincerely feel, at this moment at least,
connected to both sides of this discussion. I am not Solomon, I don’t have any magical answer to establish trust between anyone. Its pretty difficult to do without being with you…The INternet hasn’t overcome those human limitations.
I wish I could say “just forget it”. But I know that’s a lie. No one can deny how they feel. It takes time to work these out, and it is a day by day process. There has to be continuous motivation to improve from day to day, week to week, year to year, until the end of our lives….probably a long way down the road…
We are all products of what has made us, shaped us, motivated us, up to this moment. If we really want peace in such difficult environments, it will take real sweaty work, mentally sweaty work, hours out of our life, more than even regular flossing robbs. This is the only thing I have learned.
IF we really want peace, we have to work harder and set our goals a little higher each day…Going beyond typing nice words, or playing with our own kids, or saying prayers, or fixing the car for the wife to drive….or smiling to strangers. …..If we really want something, the bar of accomplishment has to be set appropriately high. God from Moses to Muhammad has said over and over this isn’t impossible….but it almost seems so.
regards from Japan. I am just a traveler on the road home just like you folks.
“Why does the Jews glorify the victors of WW2 when these victors were responsible for even bigger genocides?”
Did it occur to you that perhaps “the Jews” glorify them for the good they did and not for the bad?
And as for the British Empire and all its evil deeds; it also abolished slavery world-wide and introduced the idea of a colour-blind government. Neither principle was practiced at all times, but we have to thank the British Empire for the introduction of these ideas. Without the British Empire we would not even think of slavery and racism as something evil. It would just be NORMAL.
“Jew kills Arab = Jew was a lone loony, a bla bla bla
Arab kill Jew = Evil doer was intending to… bla bla bla EVIL bla bla bla EVIL…
Don’t you ever get tired of this shit?”
Yes, we do.
So when exactly will the PA start hunting down their lone loonies so they won’t be perceived as evil-doers intending something any more?
Israel does imprison Jewish terrorists. When will the PA fight against Arab terrorists?
There is a difference between a lone criminal who is not accepted by his people and an organisation of criminals with the full support of their nation.
Jina-
Ehhh? What are you talking aboot?
Jina,
You are right, let us stick to logical argument, so please only use verified events, and not very questionable claims, such as this thing about an Israeli soldier emptying his magazine into a little girl. It was investigated.
You will note that you may disagree with the investigation, because you are biased against Jews, (You have no other facts, you were not there, neither was I, so any conclusion on your part that the investigation was wrong is attributable only to bias) but you cannot argue with the fact that the investigation existed. And this means something: the Israeli culture is one in which, if that action existed, it would be generally regarded as wrong. Contrast this with Palestinian worship of suicide bombers- or anyone who kills Israelis. Investigations? Hardly, they are Heros! You cannot even begin to contrast the morality of two cultures when one culture admires that which the other culture considers a crime. Yes, the outcome may be the same, but morality is a state of mind and intention.
Desperation is not an excuse. Desperation is not even an explanation. Suicide bombing is motivated by the constant stream of pro-suicide bombing propaganda. Israel, the US, the UK and other nations- even Saudi Arabia- have done numerous studies of suicide bombers and all agreed that the profile is NOT poor and desperate, in fact, they have a higher average social level than the general population they came from. The principal statistic link is involvement with a stongly pro-Jihad social circle.
Desperation is also side track- it is a real problem that serves to both hide, and is hidden by, other probles, confusing the issue. If the Palestinians were suddenly able to find a diamond mine under Gaza, and immense wealth were to pour into the nation, do you think it would stop the bombing? Bear in mind the great wealth of Saudi Arabia, which still managed to provide most of the 9-11 attackers.
Multiple problems can confuse the issue: what do you do with someone having a heart attack in a burning building?
And yes, I agree that the poverty is a horrible thing, but the biggest obstacle to overcoming that poverty in Gaza and the West Bank is NOT Israel. Why do you think the Greenhouses burned in Gaza? The obstacle is the core of people who need the hatred and the war to sustain their power. This is why Israel was able to resettle as many people thrown out of Arab nations as there were Palestinians thrown out of Israel- they had no need to keep an ongoing “forever war”, so they quietly dropped all their complaints. The Jews were thrown out of Libya, Iraq, ALgeria… and yet Israel asks of those nations nothing but peace.
So then we come to the subject of the Bengali famine. I have, as you suggested, looked this up. As the historical consensus seems to be that it was due to a wide range of factors, I cannot assign it the same level of absolute Evil as the genocides against the Jews, Armenians, Roma (thank you, I did not know that Gypsy was racist) and various unfortunate Africans.
One section I read, for example:
“The Interacting Social and Ecological Factors that Reduce Access to Provisioning Ecosystem Services” (You MUST love that title!-Ben)
The great Bengali famine, which caused over three million premature deaths during World War II, was, as Sen has shown, aggravated by human action (Sen 1981). The response of the British-controlled Indian government to a coalescence of environmental, ecological, and social factors that had depressed the 1942 rice supply (a cyclone followed by flooding and a fungal outbreak in Bengal was exacerbated by loss of rice imports from Burma, then held by the Japanese) can be seen, in hindsight, as dysfunctional. It led to food hoarding and a steep increase in the price of grain. Sen found that the total food supply in the year of maximum starvation (1943) actually exceeded that of 1941, a year when there was no famine. But although this famine can be analyzed as having human causation, it also had underlying adverse climatic and ecological factors.”
Let us return to reason!
Ben
And a discussion will always be more healthy if you admit the fact that you’re biased towards Jews. Just like Jina is biased towards Palestinians. And I am more biased towards Muslims. It’s human nature. There is not a single human out there with no bias whatsoever.
Defining one’s biases is key. Journalism is almost always a matter of opinion. Any report is an interpretation of the facts rather than a clear presentation of the facts as they stand. We all need to understand that when exchanging sources. Even the most well-intentioned organizations or networks like Amnesty, HR Watch, and Reporters Without Borders, are guilty of propaganda and I have written about this here. White propaganda is everywhere, from your school textbook to the New York Times to Mideast Youth.
One thing I know about Jina, and which is why I let him get away with some name-calling, is that he is here to learn. If he didn’t have a commitment to this site as much as I do, he wouldn’t spend hours every day coding and designing to meet this site’s needs and requirements. You may think he resorts to hatred and racism just to be a jerk, but this is his way of confronting others and I know this site might gradually change his reactions towards things. To be objective you’ll need to be more understanding and considerate of those around you, as unaccepting or “racist” as they may seem at first.
If he was just here to bash and to be insulting, I would be against his claims and the way he chooses to debate. But he doesn’t hate you, and doesn’t hate Jews. He just hates selective history and clear bias in coverage. If he’s half as hateful and racist as people claim he is, he wouldn’t play a major role in this website, which he does. In fact without his efforts this website wouldn’t be as organized as it is, technically and otherwise.
I know that he attacks sometimes, and most of it is uncalled for, but that is how he deals with his passion. As a moderator of this site, I have no problem admitting the fact that I’m also biased when it comes to decision making. Sometimes you put your emotions before your ethics. This is why there’s more than one editor and moderator of different backgrounds, so that this website doesn’t have or represent a single voice. I try to have as many voices echoed here as possible so that this site doesn’t lean too far towards a single extreme or ideology.
We’re here to learn. And to ensure that learning is what happens, I am going to write a Code of Ethics for this site, which will not operate as rules but rather as something to help me and other moderators including Jina to facilitate decision making on discussions like these. I think what so many sites and organizations do wrong is that they claim to know everything, and thus we must oppress or silence others to further our own stance. We are not like that. When we are wrong, everyone here is perfectly capable of admitting it. To be a writer here, that’s one of the things our authors are expected to agree upon.
That said, I think there hasn’t been any racism here from either sides. A different interpretation of facts, yes, but not “racism.” You can’t be a part of Mideast Youth and be a racist, that just doesn’t work.
Esra’a-
Wise beyond her years…
When you write the Code of Ethics…can we please have an exemption with regards to racist feelings against Canadians?
As noted in the Academy Award Winning movie, “Canadian Bacon”, how can anybody who says “aboot” instead of “about” be anything but subhuman?
All other name-calling should be outlawed. But on this issue…please be reasonable.
If it wasn’t for the British we wouldn’t have had a major issue with slavery. It was the British who introduced it to most of the world. I am not going to pad them on the back for undoing their own mistake.
The genocide in Bengal was a verified event.
I really like to know where I stated anything racist. Please list the things I said and explain.
Jina,
you are kidding about the British introducing slavery, right? I mean, good lord, the history, the Egyptians, Aztecs, Incans, Chinese, Africans, Mughals, Romans, just about every major culture humanity has created. Even the Norse had their Thralls. Heck, the Holy Books of several major religions detail the “fair” treatment of slaves! No, the British did not introduce this. They introduced the steam engine. The steam engine set the world on the path away from a pure human labor driven economy.
The genocide in Bengal is NOT a verified event. The Famine is verified. For it to be “Genocide”, you would need to prove, not merely claim, that it was created with the intention of wiping out Bengalis. You are a long way from proving this case. It may be true- it may be that in the UK, in WWII, the British government officials gathered around a table and decided, to heck with Germans and Japanese, the real issue of the day is how to reduce the population of Bangladesh! I am unconvinced. I think the record shows a variety of causal factors, some of which were the unanticipated consequences of British decisions. Ths is not like the Armenian or Jewish or Darfur or Rwanda experience at all. The stated, intended, government goal in all these cases is the destruction or reduction of another ethnic group. Turks were TRYING to reduce the Armenian population. That is genocide. If you know of historical resources that demonstrate that Britain in WWII intended to reduce the population of Bangladesh, please let me know. Until that, disaster, no matter if it grossly compounded by error, including British AND Bengali error, is not genocide. (Yes, Jina, I’ve been looking it up. The Brits created policies that made food hoarding profitable, but the land owning Bengalis decided that those profits were MORE important that feeding the hungry. As we say in America, it takes two to tango).
Esra’a, yes, we all have biases.
Worth cutting and pasting the link: A bit from “Avenue Q” , “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3110637085328528335&q=a+little+bit+racist&pr=goog-sl&hl=en
Technical skill and racism, though, can exist in the same person. One has nothing to do with the other.
And Andrew, the Brits did not introduce color blind government. That was China. They were assigning government posts based on test scores before the Roman Empire existed. Which, in its later years, was also color blind!
Going back to Jina, if you honestly asking the question “where did you say anything racist” then I can give you honest answers- do you want them? Or was it only the rhetoric of argument? As a hint, you can start with your “you you you.. Jew” line. If you cannot see the obvious racism there I cannot help you.
Ben
I don’t understand the implication in the words I used in that you you thing. I just used a Sylvia Plath type of wording… similar to her poem Daddy, because it is very relevant to your attitude about another genocide.
Furthermore, I now know that you are the same as a Nazi, you are a Holocaust denier. Have fun you racist scum.
You missed the point completely. That’s not what I said, or even implied.
Well, we know where this debate is headed
the longest list of comments (75) I ever found here & I don’t have time to read them today (probably tomorrow) – today I just browsed some of these comments & this comment of you, Esra’a drew my attention
you’re right these biases is the key – (I must confess I’m relatively more Jewish biased) – may it be interesting to make something like a board where people tell where their biasedness comes from – expeariences & influences in childhood & youth, – different influences of media information – just about Israel the informations pools are so different that it may be interesting to a site (may a sublink to mideastyouth where all the history of Israel contra Palestine since old & till now is told by informations from both sides – giving the informations sources to their befliefs of truth from both sides – I imagine it like a big vertical timeline in the middle of the screen – to one line the pro-Palestinian side of facts & truthes about all this endless struggle, on the other side the pro-Israelian facts, believes etc. – this could become a big pool of information exchange about what really happened from ancient times to 1948 to nowadays – discussion (comment) lines could be linked to the different truth, interpretation & storylines – hmm – I’m not expert enough to realize this idea myself, but maybe here someone likes to realize it – yes I know there are much more conflicts etc. in the mideast, but this Israel-Palestines conflict is one of the crucial ones..
Hi EdoRiver, how are you?Why do you want to know my RL name?
And why don’t you pop over to Moral&Religion forum?I started that thread I promised you over there and I would like both your and Esra’a's input, I feel a bit lonely with only replies from Joel:)
Your position in the forums disturbed me rather deeply because it has shown a clear and strong anti-Jewish bias.Israel never rejected Christ, the Jewish religion, OTOH ,did reject him at the time from various theological, and probably at least some political, reasons- for you he may be the son of God, for most religious Jews who even think about him in that context he is either a pretender to the throne of the Messiah, a grave offense as you can guess, or a misguided and bright student of the Qaballah(the Jewish mysticism)- the second I heard from an older religious Jew that served with me in the IDF, btw.
As to you Jina- in school we aren’t taught to glorify Britain, we’re taught about the “White Book” the fact that European Jews fleeing the Holocaust were *returned* to Europe in some cases, and had in all cases received beating at best when they were caught- one of the people who help smuggle those immigrants to Israel once lectured my high-school class and one of the scenes he described was the British coast guard boarding the boat he was in at the time, beating anyone in their vicinity(including a pregnant woman) with lead filled nightsticks- the kind that breaks bones on impact.Yes, we’re also taught they were part of the alliance that helped defeat the Nazis, and we glorify that act, while deploring their acts of brutality.Other then that?My guess is that the average Israeli may like the good British TV he gets, but “glorify” them?
I don’t know about him, but the mental image you created with *me* using those words was someone nearly incoherent with rage at “the Jew”.That’s a very racist image.
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