Sudan: Arab or African?
February 3rd, 2007Ingrid @ Sudan Watch asked the following question:
Since Sudan belongs to both the African Union and Arab League, I wonder if Sudanese women see Sudan as an African or Arab country.
Now even though I’m not a woman (Duh!), I’m still going to try and answer Ingrid’s question. Is Sudan an African or Arab country? In other words, are we Sudanese, African or Arab? It’s a tough question to answer for the simple reason that I’m only given the option of choosing between “Arab†or “Africanâ€. I don’t see Sudan as being either one or the other. There are about 600 tribes in Sudan. Yes, that’s right, 600 tribes! Ethnically, some are African, some are Afro-Arab and the few remaining others are Arab. Therefore Sudan is an Afro-Arab country. It’s as simple as that but I don’t believe that answers Ingrid’s question or does it? Well in case it doesn’t and I can only choose between “Arab” or “African”, then here are my thoughts. Yo, people in da house, indulge me in the comments section if you may.
THE ETHNIC PERSPECTIVE
First of all, let’s discuss this issue from the perspective of ethnicity. Pictured at the bottom of this post are 2 Sudanese girls (aren’t they so cute and innocent). They represent both the far sides of the Sudanese ethnic spectrum. The first picture is of a girl from the Nuer tribe which is an African tribe from Southern Sudan, not Afro-Arab but African. The second is of a girl from the Rashaida tribe which is an Arab tribe from Eastern Sudan, not Afro-Arab but Arab. The Rashaida are the most recent Arab tribe to make into Sudan. They crossed the Red Sea from the Arabian Peninsula about 150 years ago and made it to the north eastern side of the country. Since they arrived recently, they haven’t intermarried with locals. It’s a known fact that a Rashaida father will almost never allow his daughter (or son) to marry outside of the tribe (the same is quite true for other tribes). As such, the Rashaida have remained purely Arab.
Now that both ends of the spectrum have been presented, allow me to further explain the main difference between them. What’s the main difference (besides the obvious)? Well here is the main difference: one is indigenous to the land and the other is not. Arab tribes came from the Arabian Peninsula while African tribes (Nuer, Dinka, Nuba, Nubians etc.) have been in Sudan for ages.
Let’s move on to the next point i.e. the Afro-Arab. “The Afro-Arab” is the product of intermarriage between Arab tribes and African tribes. I am a Northern Sudanese. Ethnically speaking I am a Shaigee. I am of mixed blood, mainly being Nubian, Nuba and Arab. The Nubian and Nuba in me are indigenous to Sudan. The Arab in me was an outsider that came, settled, assimilated into the Sudanese African ethnic pool and as a result made part of it Afro-Arab.
In the big context, it is “the African” that dominates. It’s very difficult finding many pure Arab tribes like the Rashaida in Sudan. They’re minorities. The majority are either African or Afro-Arab. Hence, ethnically speaking and in the big context we Sudanese are mainly African and not Arab. That’s also true for most Northern Sudanese. “The African” still dominates.
Whether we’re Arab or African, can’t be fully answered without taking into account how we Sudanese view ourselves though. For Southerners, that’s not a major issue. It’s simple. They’re Africans. For many Northern Sudanese however it gets a little complicated. Choosing either Arab or African is not easy. Here’s a little test for my Northern Sudanese Afro-Arab readers that should make it easier. Do you want to know how you can find out if you view yourself as more African than Arab or vice versa? Here’s how. Visualize the following and tell me which one you find more offensive.
a) A Persian guy shouting “Arabs are filthy dogs”.
or
b) Some KKK dude shouting “Africans are filthy niggers”.
For most Sudanese I asked, the answer was (b).
THE CULTURAL PERSPECTIVE
We’ve concluded that us Sudanese are mainly African in terms of ethnicity but what about culturally? In terms of culture are we Arab or African? Again, I’d say that for Southern Sudanese, this won’t be a major issue. Unlike many Northern Sudanese, they’re not suffering from an identity crisis. Southern Sudanese are both ethnically and culturally African but this is not really true for Northern Sudanese. For the Northern Sudanese who are dominantly ethnically Afro-Arab, it’s a different case. All Afro-Arab tribes in Sudan (and even some African ones) have been Arabized even if not fully (keep in mind that along with Arabization came Islamization and Islamic culture). Therefore culturally speaking Northern Sudanese are mainly Arab due to Arabization and not African.
In the big context, I believe that it is the Arab culture that dominates in Sudan. Yes, many Afro-Arab tribes have retained a lot of African traditions and have not been fully Arabized. Yes, the Arab culture in Sudan might be sort of loose but it is what ties many tribes together and is what’s common amongst them besides Islam. About 70% of Sudan’s population is Muslim. Moreover the majority of Sudanese also speak Arabic together with other languages. They’re multilingual.
CONCLUSION
Now this is the really difficult part. (Voice inside my head: damn it, why do you have to choose between Arab or African man? Why can’t you just choose both?). Well like I said at the start of my post. Sudan is an Afro-Arab country. It’s really that simple. However to which side do we belong more? If you as a Sudanese had to make a choice, which one would you choose? African or Arab?
As I’ve presented, ethnically speaking we Sudanese are mainly African but culturally we’re more Arab than African (thanks to Arabization). So, which one do we belong to more? Which one do we choose? In order to give an answer, I have to ask another question. Which one plays a bigger role in forming one’s identity? Would that be ethnicity or culture? For me, the answer is ethnicity.
A girl from the Neur, an African tribe (Malakal, Southern Sudan).
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A girl from the Rashaida, an Arab tribe. (East Sudan).
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Personally I would say that its culture that forms a person more than anything. A good example is the Middle East in general. The middle east is a mixture of several ethnic groups who historically were culturely distinct in their own right. For example Egyptian, Phonecian, Syrian, Assyrian, Berber, Chaldeon, Philistine, several others AND Arabs.
As a result of invading Arabs through out the 7th and 8th centuries all these groups have melted away and become ARAB as a result of the language, common foods, traditions, dances, clothing, religion etc. This is their culture.
Have you ever tried explaining to someone that Egyptians arent technically Arab? OMG its like telling them the sky is neon green. If you look in the dictionary you will see Arab defined as “arabic speaking people”. The term Arab itself is a waaaaay too common misnomer, what keeps Sudan in the middle of the debate is the obvious difference in skin color, thats it. (in my opinion)
Also if you come to the U.S. and observe “Arab” kids who were raised here you will see people who know nothing about their parents culture and have adopted that of White Americans, African Americans etc.
I one time saw a Palestinian kid walk into an arabic restaurant with his mother, he was looking at the walls and the people like he was in a foreign country. He approached the waiter like this.
“Yeaaaa, uhhh can I get those things you got, you know them green balls with the brown shit on the outside, you know what i’m sayin man”
The waiter responded, “uhhh you mean falafel?”
he responds, “yeaaa yeaa, dat shit”
Oh yea he also had a tattoo of a panther on his neck! So is he culturally arab? No, and will his children be recognizably arab? I doubt it.
Its culture man.
so, tell me why are the Shia and Sunni, both Iraqi, both Arabic culture at each other’s throats? I know Shia is mainly Iran, but we are talking about Iraq not Iran. Cuture of Shia and Sunni in Iraq is the same, isn’t it?????
Not exactly. The Shia and Sunnis have many ideological differences.
Apart from the roots of the split tracing back to Mohammed’s successors, I think one of the most significant differences is that, for Sunnis, the Koran is the final authority while the Shiites believe in a rightful imam (Ali) who furthered the message of the Koran. Another difference also has to do with the Mehdi, Sunnis believe that the Mehdi has yet to appear while the Shiites believe in the Mehdi’s return. There are other ideological differences that developed throughout time, but I don’t consider them significant. Remember that it is these ideological differences that also further fueled the Iran-Iraq war of the 80’s, even though it was mainly a territorial dispute.
Also remember that in Bahrain we are suffering from the same things now. That’s what triggered the Just Bahraini campaign.
Shia Arabs and Sunni Arabs fight each other because they have different ideologies, like Esra’a said. Not to mention that they are fighting over who will rule; this or that segment of the population, which is determined on a sectarian basis. The Sunnis though will accuse the Shias of not being Arabs (Persian dogs) to bully them as they did for hudreds of years prior.
Drima’s explaination that many Sudanese are ethnically non-Arab/African and culturally Arab is very good. It is true of many Afro-Arabs (I say that in reference to Arabs living in Africa, not mixed blood black/Arab folks necissarily). Maghrebis (Algerians, Tunisians, Moroccans) have Berber blood overwhelmingly but in most cases they identify with the Arab culture entirely (Tunisians especially and most Algerians). There are some who claim to be from the Banu Hilal invasion, but genetic studies have not substanciated that. IN Morocco and the Atlas mountains, you find many people who are both by blood and by culture/language some kind of Berber. They also usually have Arab in their family tree most of the time. If you ask the Arabs though, all these countries are “Arab” totally.
True, what you said of Morocco. The majority of the people there are of Arab-berber mix, but there are also Afro-arabs, afro-berber living within the country in addition to the numerous european mixes (spanish, french, italian, jewish, portuguese). In twoof the imperial cities, Marrakesh and Meknes there is a strong african prescence intertwined with Islam and Arab influence. The country itself can continue to de-african and de-berber itself through refusal of being part of the Au and seeking membership in the EU, but due to its location and history of trade, natural ethnic migration and current african immigration it retains an Berber-Arab-African identity.
Through its closness with arab countries and centuries of migration between the people, it is entirely possible for a country like Sudan to have an Afro-Arab identiy; Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea, Tanzania (Zanzibar), Mauritania, Mali.
Morocco is not a member of the AU because it occupies the Western Sahara. All member states of the AU recognize the Saharaoui Arab Republic there, rather than Moroccan control. This is mostly because of Algerian lobbying to the other African states.
Okay now i understand because im seeing someone from sudan he from malakal and he says he’s african but his hair is of an arab his skin color is like the kid in the first pic so now i understand because i dont think he could really explain it. I thought he was just telling he was african because of course in america you know how arabs have been treated since september 11th. I thought if he said he was african he’s have better treatment but it really didnt matter to me thanks for the clarification.
frist greetings to all
I do igree with Shobrawy, culture that forms a person more than anything.
we sudanese we have our sudanese culture which is comes out from the mix Africans & arabs.
Normally we do not have problems, but all do you hear about Darfur and before south sudan it`s all planed by the war organizer.!!!!!!!!!!
Here you will find some information about sudan & the sudanese!!
http://www.sudaneseairscout.com/sudanboyscout
Thanks for your intrest
Drima, I noticed that you moved your website to this new address. Yet, you continue to use pictures of those same two girls to supposedly show the two racial extremes in the Sudan. As I made clear on your other web page, this “pure arab” Rashaida tribe (of which one girl represents) numbers only about 70,000 of Sudans 40 million population (less than 2 percent). Hardly even visible. The other girl is supposed to represent the Nuer tribe (the other extreme). I don’t think so. Here again are pictures of the true Nuer, the Sudanese Arabs and all other tribes or ethnic groups in the Sudan. Click on the names of the groups: http://www.sudan101.com/people_groups.htm
He did not move his website to this new address, he merely cross-posts here, and this post is many months old.
actually countries like sudan and somalia are 100% arabs..tht wht i know the ppl dont knows tht..i hope they knows arabic..iam from UAE.And i am history teacher…there was arab emperors centuries back in those countries
Yes there ancestors are Arab but its a mixture of both as i’m told from my boyfriend he’s from Sudan. Arab is definitely in the gene pool but its mostly African with a touch of Arab from Ancestry. Im sure it varies from family to family and tribe to tribe. He personally calls himself African not Arab but others may say there Arab and not African i guess it depends.
people of Sudan
Arab or African, or a blend of both, beautiful and honorable people. I we do not address one another’s ethnicities in a disrespectful manner, any more, any where. Viva Sudan
kwahla is a big tribe in Sudan
What is their language?
Do they study an African language in their schools? Is Arabic an offical language in Sudan?
I am married to a rashidi from saudi arabia but his dad and dads family live in sudan but are orinally saudi, i would love to learn more about the rasheedi tribe from others in this forum and maybe even meet with some rasheedis, shukran
choclatey77 Wrote:
Okay now i understand because im seeing someone from sudan he from malakal and he says he’s african but his hair is of an arab his skin color is like the kid in the first pic so now i understand because i dont think he could really explain it. I thought he was just telling he was african because of course in america you know how arabs have been treated since september 11th. I thought if he said he was african he’s have better treatment but it really didnt matter to me thanks for the clarification
he is arican probably a shiluik the shiliuk are african tribe located in central sudan though alot (not all)of them are mixed with arabs (northerns) i’m shiluik and i have arab blood (my grandmother is egyptian) though we consider ourself africans ppl in my family look like ethiopian or dark skinned omanis we speak arabic and chollo (our native languagge)
About 80 percent of African-Americans have varying percentages of European blood (ancestry) from 90 percent European blood to 20 percent European blood. Yet they don’t go around calling themselves “Europeans.” Sudanese like Afro-Latinos are unable to shed the brainwash that Arabs and Europeans (Spanish and Portuguese in this case) are superior to Africans so they call themselves “Arabs” and “Hispanics” rather than African. What a shame! They think that by calling themselves “Arabs” and “Hispanics” means their ancestors were’t ever slaves. And they go around doing the Europeans work for them killing and discriminating against their own African people while the Europeans laugh at how stupid they are. Que lastima!
A lot of Northern sudanese people either have Arab features with light brown skin, or the opposite, but even the other Arabs say that Northern-Sudan is an Arab population, for me, the answer is Afro-Arab
Arabs have mixed with a lot of people through out history. The main Sudanese language is Arabic though, sudanese are mixed race with African and Arab. Tribes in Southern Sudan are African, but in the upper Northern parts they are either Arab or Afro-Arab, so no one’s a real arab anymore. And if you go to South Egypt, they look very much like Sudanese, for they are Afro-Arab, here aren some mixed race countried with Arab:
Egypt: Half coptis, half Arab (Southern is afro arab)
The rest of North Africa (Half berber, half arab, the south is afro-arab)
Sudan (afro-arab, but you can get many white sudanese arabs aswell)
Somalia (only some are afro-arab, not alot)
Djibouti (afro-arab)
AND the original Arab Beduoins were actually very dark brown skintone, so the Arab countires in Asia are also mixed aswell, so I doubt anyone’s a real arab anymore
Spain are also half arab half European ^_^
white sudanese are europeans nt arab..(turkish,portugese)
What so many are missing here is that Arab ethnic identity is conferred by the identity of the father; if he is Arab, the children are Arab. Every nation defines itself, in it’s own way. “White” Americans consider “African” blood a contaminant, so “one drop” of “African bood” makes one a “black”, even if 7 of his 8 great-grandparents happened to be purely European. But these criteria were imposed on them (although they accept it), while “Arab” identity is inclusive, not exclusive. “Africans” are no more a single ethnicity/race than are “Asians”. It is pure ignorance to assume, as some above have, that “Asian” Arabs are more “pure-blood” than “African” Arabs. The fact is, that Arabs in southwest Asia have interbred with Kurds, Turks, Persians, Indians, Pakistanis, Malays, South Europeans, local Greeks and Hebrews, converted and un-converted Crusaders, and others, as well as East Africans, over the centuries. But those who look at the world thru European eyes assume that, since most of these Arabs are light-skinned, so they must somehow be “more pure of blood” and hence, more truly “Arab”, than those who are darker!
Afro-Arab? this is meaningless, much as the term “Asio-Arab” would be.
How stupid, and what a double-standard. Those who follow this are following, and have internalized, the values and ideals of European racism!
In fact, the Europeans have a grudging envy of the Arabs, who are the heirs of civilization itself (Egyptian, Babylonian, Phoenician, Carthaginian, Hebrew, etc.), and they like to propose that the Arabs are, at least, akin to the folk of Europe, whom they erroneously like to style “Caucasian”.
There is, of course, a cultural identity of Arab, which applies to the Arabized peoples and their descendants. Examples would include descendants of Egyptian Copts, Lebanese Maronites, Crusaders who settled in Palestine, Circassians who settled in Jordan, and many other groupings. (The wife of the late King Hussein of Jordan’s brother is Pakistani).
Those who claim that the Maghreb is Berber with an Arab overlay are in error. There is a large Berber minority in most of the Magreb, but the majority, in all 5 Maghreb regions, is, in fact, Arab. Since Arab identity has never been racial, but paternal (as an outgrowth of tribal identity, in which children belong automatically to the clan and tribe of the father), it is immaterial to Arabs* whether one’s grandmother was a Berber, Persian, Albanian, Indian, Hausa, Wolof, or Turk, or what ‘color’ the child is: if the father is an Arab, so is the child! And no one has the right to tell the Arabs (or any other nation) how to define themselves!
Why fall into the pit of ignorance dug by the Europeans/North Americans? Is it really so important to try to pull dark-skinned Arabs out of their heritage and nationality? This reminds one of watching crabs in a barrel! No one is trying to force those NOT of Arab heritage to “become” Arab! Why is it so compelling to try to convince them that they are something other than what they are? Is this not a non-issue, when Africa already has so many serious problems? What’s the point?
*one caveat: as there are in every nation, the Arabs have individuals inflicted with the disease of “inferiority complex”, who, in general, wish to imitate the Europeans, in behaviour, culture, and social values. So we’re not including this element in the argument, because, be they of white, black, olive, brown, or whatever other skin color, they are outside the equation, since they reject it.
To know more about Arabs in Sudan, log on to http://www.elhadaf.net
@ EL-SHINQITI – You made some really good points.
Arabs and Arabness are very complex but can be broken down so easier to understand.
Firstly, there are many tribes in Sudan. I hear that alot or all of the Northern ones are Muslim and Arabic speaking while the Southern ones are mainly non-muslim and non-arabic speaking, although there are still ones who do speak Arabic and follow Islam in the south of the country as well. Some of the Northern clans claim Arab ancestory from many years ago while there are other clans who are more recent inhabitants from Arabia.
There are some Northern clans who appear to be black African (I’ll speak about that later) but happen to speak Arabic and follow Islam while there are also some clans who stake claim to some Arab ancestory and speak it and are Muslim. These are the peoples that are being referred to as Afro-Arabs.
On Arabs and Arabness – EL-SHINQITI summed this up in his first few lines in the post above; What so many are missing here is that Arab ethnic identity is conferred by the identity of the father; if he is Arab, the children are Arab.
This is true. If some of the clans in Sudan do have ethnic Arab ancestory, although they are physically and maybe even culturally very similar or the same to the ‘Black African’ clans in the south, they still may consider themselves Arab. Religiosuly they are considered Arab perhaps as they might be Muslim and they may also be considered Arab politically by the Arab League as they speak Arabic. These factors might add to why they get called Afro-Arabs to as well as the genetic link.
When you refer to Berber peoples as being African, you seem to forget that African is not a gene type although many who are black africans are a race in some ways, its a continent made up of nation states. People from state to state and even within some states are vaired. For example, a Somalian person is very different in appearence to a Ghanian as well as obvious cultrual aspects, a Morrocan of berber ancestory is very different to a Ugandan and so on and so forth. There are also some within certain African states who, although may racially be the same, are still divided up into different clans that sometimes fight each other or commit acts of genocide on the other. If some of you wish to demonise the Arab world for trying to say anyone who speaks Arab is an Arab then is it not just as bad of the AU to claim that anyone who lives in a state on the continent of Africs is the same, regardless of how very different they are. And what makes you think that Middle Easteners are all ethnically Arab? The majority speak Arabic and many are Muslim but many of the countries have pre-Islamic history (Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt).
In other words, other middle easterners, also get lumped into the Arab League and called Arab.
Ethnically or Racially Arab – Someone who has actual ancestry from arabia.
Cultrually Arab – Someone may regard themself or be regarded as Arab if they are Muslim and speak Arabic, although not all Muslims are Arab and not all Arabs are Muslim. This is to do with identity not ethnicity, although much of the middle east and north and east africa are mixed, not exclusively with Arabians though.
Politically – Being part of the Arab League.
EL-SHINQITI Wrote:
What so many are missing here is that Arab ethnic identity is conferred by the identity of the father; if he is Arab, the children are Arab. Every nation defines itself, in it’s own way. “White” Americans consider “African” blood a contaminant, so “one drop” of “African bood” makes one a “black”, even if 7 of his 8 great-grandparents happened to be purely European. But these criteria were imposed on them (although they accept it)
That’s probably why I and so many other light-skin blacks and dark-skin blacks in America have disdain for all of these dark-skin blacks in Sudan who say that they are “Arabs” and NOT black! When I read about how the women of Darfur say that these black-skin “Arabs” rape them and tell them they’re going to give them “light-skin ‘Arab’ babies,” it makes my blood boil! Maybe the true “Arabs” should of used the same “racial” criteria as White Americans and they wouldn’t be raping and killing their own people today. BTW I doubt if there are many “true” Arab fathers in the Sudan today to confer the “Arab” identity on the children of Sudan. They’re Africans who want to be Arabs. There’s not much recent “true” Arab racial mixture.
I think you’re missing the point (or many points!) You refer to “light-skin blacks”, which is like saying “dark-skin whites”. The European slave-owners taught you to what to call yourselves, now you presume to tell Arabs who we are! “Pure” Arabs are not just what you would refer to as “whites”, or (so-called) “caucasians”. Arabs are (ALWAYS!) whatever their father is. Your statement that “black” Arabs in Darfur allegedly promised “light-skinned” babies (?) makes no sense! Nor is it your prerogative to tell an Arab(or anyone else) what his ethnicity is. It is a fact that “black” (like “white”) is not an ethnicity in Africa, and never will be; only in America! While you have taken it upon yourself to determine others’ ethnicity, I would ask if you know even 1% of your own? Just because you are American gives you no right to think you have inherited the Anglo-American “authority” to tell other people who they are! Every Arab, of whatever “color”, can tell you his/her geneology, and knows their tribal background. If you need to limit your identity to the (perceived) color of your skin, that’s your right. It’s not logical, merely a result of imposition by “white” America (black meaning only that one is descended from slaves, regardless of the actual skin color), but it’s your right. BTW, instead of wasting your time “doubting” the heritage of Sudanese (and/or other Arabs who happen to have dark skin), why don’t you try to find out what your own ethnicity is? My years in the US taught me about the inferiority complex/arrogance which leads so many of you people to want to tell others who they are. Try to shed the slave heritage and respect people for who they are, and avoid assuming the right to “teach” them. You expose yourself to ridicule when you take such an attitude with people whose heritage is unbroken, written, and a matter of common knowledge. And in case you’re wondering, no, I am not “black”. Good luck to you.
PS, it is interesting that no one above doubts the Arab origin of Arabs who are light-skinned, or “white”. Is it presumed that they are “unmixed?” Why aren’t they referring to the Syrians and Lebanese, for example, as really being “Asians”, not “Arabs”? What’s going on here? Why the Color Crusade against darker-skinned Arabs?
I know that the original Arabs of Arabia were black and brown skin people and I had no problem with Sudanese calling themselves Arabs. In fact I admired them for their victories against General Gordon and the British under the leadership of Muhammad Ahmed. It’s only lately that I’ve developed this anger at Sudanese “Arabs” when reading about the Janjaweed “Arabs” raping, killing, and hatred of the people of Darfur “because they’re black.” When these “Janjaweed Arabs” are people we know as black people too in the United States. How can these so-called “Arabs” whom we know as black people too in the United States hate other black people because they may be a little darker except that it was passed down to them from the true Arabs. Yes, we light-skin blacks and dark-skin blacks are united as one African-American people in our struggles against our European slave “masters” children. Today, we have the first black president of the United States because of our unity and oneness. Someting the sudanese should take notice of and stop all of this nonsense about who’s darker skin and who has Arab ancestry or not. Unite as one Sudanese people and build your country instead of destroying it because some people wannabe dark “Arabs” (in an african country)and some want to be Africans which makes sense.
P.S. The statement about how the women of Darfur say that these “Arabs” rape them and tell them they’re going to give them “light-skin ‘Arab’ babies, comes from our American newspapers and television news. I put the “black-skin Arabs” in it because in all of the pictures that I’ve seen of the Janjaweed Arabs they look as black and blacker than African-Americans. I know that the Europeans and European Americans have a history of divide and rule continue to divide and continue to rule practice, but I’ve not heard any Sudanese refute the statements of the Darfurian women so I’m inclined to believe it’s true. What our news media tells us everyday is there’s a “racial” war in Sudan with “Arabs” against “blacks.” They don’t show pictures of the “Arabs” so everyone believes it is white Arabs raping and killing blacks. Sudanese never denies this is true (or it never gets printed in our newspapers)so Americans believe it is white Arabs destroying blacks. This of course is what the white news media wants us to believe. This is why you get so much hostility from those of us that knows it is not white Arabs against blacks. We believe that it’s because Sudanese want to be thought of as being no different than the “white” arabs that they refuse to refute these misleading allegations of the white Americans news media.
Please wake up. Again you refer to ’so-called “arabs” ‘, whom you (?) in the US “know” AS black people. The typical American is the most ignorant person in the world on the subject of peoples, geography, and politics. What makes you think YOU are the ones chosen to decide ‘who is who’? And why should Sudan waste time trying to convince idiots about the nature of the problems in the Arab lands? Idiots who, for example, cannot comprehend why we want to expel European converts to Judaism from Arab Palestine! As you mentioned above about your citizenry thinking that in Sudan “white Arabs (are) destroying blacks”, it is not our job to raise the intellectual level of Amerians, of whatever “color”.
Speaking of which, do you consider a person who is 80% “white” and only 20% “black” (as another writer commented above) to still be a “black”? If so, there is inconsistency in your thinking, since you use a “color” definition to include people who are NOT of that color, yet you challenge the Arabs for using a paternal definition of who is an Arab? All in all, I think you need to simply realize that you were not appointed to determine how we see ourselves or how we identify ourselves. You were not even charged with this task for your own identity; it was given to you by the Europeans in America, and now, somehow, you assume to have inherited the right to tell US who WE are, by insiduously inserting quotation marks around the word ‘Arab’. Also, it is interesting that you accept the US media as inherently truthful, while so many Americans have long known that it is largely packed with pro-Zionist lies (even before mad-dog Bush and running-dog Powell presented their lies about Iraq to an ignorant populace)! It would be fooloish for Sudanese diplomats to so waste their time.
In summary, i think you should realize that, no matter how much it irks you, no matter how much you feel “disdain” for them (as you said earlier), the dark-skinned Arabs of Sudan, Chad, Mauritania, and elsewhere will remain just that: Arabs. It is too bad that you have such a complex that you cannot accept that fact and simply get on with your life. Why you should feel such an obsession to make them be what you are can only be guessed at, but it strikes me that envy may play a part in it.
If you still think that ‘Africans’ regard themselves as one ethnicity, tell this to the Tutsi. By the way, I wonder where you were during that period? As for the Sudanese ‘wanting to be thought of as no different from “white” Arabs’, this is true, because fundamentally, Arabs do not think about each other in terms of color, something you may not be able to comprehend…
Finally, you must come to realize that the Arabs, Sudanese or otherwise, are not really concerned with what your attitude(s) toward them may be. Your thinking has been molded and determined by the same European colonialism that has caused us (as well as most of the world!) so much harm and destruction, and “black” Americans have played a major role in helping them carry out their attrocities against Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Vietnamese, South Africans, Cubans, Nicaraguans, Grenadans, etc., etc., etc. To wit, in the final analysis, your opinion does not matter.
When you mention Obama, remember that he is not an “Afro-American”. which means a person of African slave ancestry, born in the US; rather, he is an Afro-European (half-African, half European), and his father was a Kenyan, no closer related to the African-American community than a Portuguese is to an Armenian;
and not descended from slaves.
Hey, for those of us who are bored and tired of flogging this dead horse (camel?)of defining “Sudanese Arabs”, how about a change? Why not discuss whether Uzbekis are actually Turkic, since they are “yellow”, and most Turks in Turkey are “white”; later we can diatribe on whether the Inuit (Eskimo) are actually just another “Indian” people. (Why should they have a distinct name?) …Or maybe we can just oppose one another’s politics,if we choose to, but respect one another’s race/ethnicity/color? Racism/colorism as a political institution may(?) have been fostered by European colonialism, but today it is certainly being kept alive and well by some of those who suffered from it most! There are other, serious, problems facing the Third World today: economics, environment, neo-colonialism, disease, under-education,development obstacles, drugs, etc.; that merit our concern.
Read my statement again,what I said was “Today, we have the first black president of the United States because of our unity and oneness.” Read our newspapers he is referred to as the first black and the first African-American to be elected president of the United States. He recognizes this and states this also. Though his father was a Kenyan, he was born and raised in the United States. That makes him an African-American in the U.S.
I also said “I know that the original Arabs of Arabia were black and brown skin people and I had no problem with Sudanese calling themselves Arabs.” “It’s only lately that I’ve developed this anger at Sudanese “Arabs” when reading about the Janjaweed “Arabs” raping, killing, and hatred of the people of Darfur “because they’re black.” Though you and other Sudanese dispute and refute things I say, none of you have refuted that. And although you say we’re an “ignorant populace” we’re not too ignorant to vote Bush out of office. You see most of us were in support of the Sudan until we started reading about the raping and killing of African people by a people who say that they’re not African and not black but “Arabs.” And we do know the American news media lies and deceives us, but we don’t ever hear the sudanese deny this raping and killing of people because they,re black and not “Arabs.” You say you are not really concerned with what our attitude(s) toward you may be, but keep in mind that the new President Obama sees himself as a black African-American man in charge of all the might and wealth of this country. You should care that he be told the truth of whats going on in Sudan.
Obama is not an idiot to pander to the delusions of anti-Arab racists and people who have axes to grind, or he would not have gotten this far. A person who has a European parent and an Asian parent is a Eurasian. An Afro-Asian (like Tiger Woods) is someone with parents originating in those two continents. An Asian-American is an “Asian” born in the US, of two Asian parents. An Italian-American is one born in US of Italian parents. The same appies to an Afro-American(unless you descend to Newspeak!) An Afro-European, however, is someone who has an African parent and a European parent. Like Obama. Like it or not, it’s a fact. If you need to search for racism, you need to look in your own shirt. You’re obviously obsessed with this garbage, but perhaps you should look to the killing of hundreds of thousands of Tutsi “blacks” by the Hutu “blacks”, but I guess that reality is to harsh for you to confront. There is no question about what was going on there. It is not for the Sudanese to respond to every bit of garbage coming out of the mouths of those in the US who would exaggerate and distort the situation in Darfur (or any other Arab region!) to the benefit of the Zionists. Your charge that the Sudanese are killing people in Darfur because they are black, is simply pitiful and inane, especially since you insist that the Sudanese themselves are “blacks”. In that case, why don’t you just pity them, and try to correct them? And to say that “most of (you) were in support(?) of Sudan… is bizarre, since “most of (you)” have no idea where Sudan is, or anything about it. ‘Most of (you)’ have no idea about any part of the world outside of the US. You simply grab on to some concept or bit of misplaced fact or idea,when told to, and run with it.
And repeating a lie over and over as you did again above: “…a people who say they’re not African or black, but ‘Arab’…” won’t make it any truer. The Sudanese do not need to stand around on street-corners chanting “we’re black, we’re African” any more that a Lebanese would stand around chanting “we’re white, we’re Asian”. Being in Asia or Africa has no bearing on whether or not one is Arab. Such an argument would not come from any coherent source, but only from those without roots, seeking to compensate by waving their “blackness” like a banner! For that matter, this drivel would not be accepted among the mainstream of Dakar, Lagos, Mombasa, or any African city. You are out of touch with reality. This is not even the attitude in the Afro-American communities, where the people are too busy dealing with drugs, poverty, mal-education, the Crips and Bloods, and the lack of health care, to waste their time and efforts with such concerns.
You just don’t get it: your inferiority complex is (fortunately) not contagious.Why not just be satisfied with who and/or what you are? Give up your obsession: You can’t change us, because we know who we are. You might feel better if you contacted one of those genetic research companies online, who can find out your ethnic roots from blood samples. (You might even learn that you’re ‘part Arab’:)
Anyway, this is tiresome. let’s let someone else discuss (hopefully) something else, and agree to disagree.
Lets do that. But I’ll have the last word.LOL. You say that I’m missing the point(s)but it is you who’ve been missing my point(s). You refer to me as an
anti-Arab racists. I’m one of the most pro-Arab sympathizers in the U.S. I agree that the Europeans who’ve come in to Palestine and ruled it til this day aren’t original jews, but converts. They have been and still are strongly supported by European nations including the formerly European-led United States. You keep talking about Obama being Afro-European, well a great many of us in the U.S. are Afro-European via one European parent, grandparent, or great grandparent. But nearly all of us (including Obama) identify with our African side. You say you’ve lived in the U.S. then, you should know this. If you aren’t solidly White you’re Black in the U.S. There are many people walking around who are referred to as just light-skin Blacks who have a White parent or grandparent. As an African-American Obama has expressed major concern about what’s going on in Sudan and may take some type of action (military or economical) against the Sudan after he’s sworn in Tuesday. I was hoping to get a firm denial of the things our newsmedia is reporting about what’s happening in Darfur and South Sudan. “Arabs carying out a Genocidal war against ‘Blacks’.” I’m not a “anti Arab racist” but I, Obama, and most other Black americans(that’s what we call ourselves)are really concerned about the statement made above being made by our major newsmedia. Good luck to you too, my brother.
If a predominantly European person who has a “little” African ancestry can “identify” with their “African” side, why couldn’t a predominantly “African”
person who has “a little” Arab ancestry identify with his Arab side?
Also, the US, as powerful militarily as it may be, cannot change reality. You say that “in the US” reality doesn’t count, only the attitudes and prejudices of the European majority; and apparently the “black” minority are going to continue to submit to their racist concepts? “If you aren’t solidly white, you’re black…” This is strange. It implies “black blood” is a genetic contaminant, and this is acceptable? Who made this decision? Anyway, I doubt that Obama is going to make diplomatic moves based on what some newspaper says! I must call to your attention the fact that Obama’s appointment as his Chief of Staff is the son of an Irgun terrorist, and both father and son have dual citizenship (Israeli), although the son may reject his as a temporary measure while in office! The Irgun was wanted by the British as a “terrorist” organization, and it’s leader, Menachim Begin, who later became Prime Minister of the Zionist entity, had a (British) bounty on his head. The Irgun killed UN delegate Folke Bernadotte; bombed the King David hotel in Jerusalem; and massacred the unarmed Christian Arab village of Deir Yassin, killing over 260 non-combatant women, children, and elders; among many other terror attacks on Palestinians and British troops in Palestine.
If anyone is really so gullible that they believe everything said by “your newsmedia”, they are in deep trouble. This is the same media that was imbedded in Iraq, imbedded in the “weapons of mass distraction”, and that has been lying to its readers for generations! Only the naive would accept all of it’s lies and distortions.
Finally, if Obama is himself so under the thumb of the Zionists that he is willing to start still a third war against a Muslim country, even though it will result in the economic destruction of the US, well, so be it. Maybe you think of the US soldier as a ’superman’, but, bereft of their high technology, they are not so tough (as the Viet Cong showed)! Don’t expect anyone to tremble at these implied threats. Are you looking forward to joining them?
The idea that Americans, who regarded the lynching of ‘Blacks’ and ‘Indians’ as a Sunday-afternoon sport, would accept to risk their own lives (rightfully or wrongfully) for Africans, is laughable! Do you think that Obama would have sent troops into Rwanda and Burundi if he were in office then? Not unless he were stupid. And he would need the (overwhelmingly non-black) congress to OK it!
Now, I’ll tell you what: I’ll concede the last word to you if you wish (unless you bring up something new that begs a response). And we’ll let someone else pose an issue for contemplation and discussion.
“Bush, Rice, Hu, Kofi”: In case any of you out there have not seen/heard the parody on you-tube (and many other sites) with the above name, you simply MUST listen to it! Google the title in quotation marks above, and enjoy! (what better way to celebrate the imminent departure of this ignorant barbarian, Bush!)
About 80 percent of African-Americans have varying percentages of European blood (ancestry) from 90 percent European blood to 20 percent European blood. Yet they don’t go around calling themselves “Europeans.” Sudanese like Afro-Latinos are unable to shed the brainwash that Arabs and Europeans (Spanish and Portuguese in this case) are superior to Africans so they call themselves “Arabs” and “Hispanics” rather than African. What a shame! They think that by calling themselves “Arabs” and “Hispanics” means their ancestors were’t ever slaves. And they go around doing the Europeans work for them killing and discriminating against their own African people while the Europeans laugh at how stupid they are. Que lastima!
Okay I got your point but the bolded 1st statement is an absurd gross exaggeration….Although some of us are mixed with European the vast majority of African Americans aren’t….Infact there are more African Americans mixed with Native Americans than Europeans and outside of recent Euro mixture AAs with European heritage is irrelevant cause it’s been washed out by generations of AAs reproducing with other AAs.
What so many are missing here is that Arab ethnic identity is conferred by the identity of the father; if he is Arab, the children are Arab. Every nation defines itself, in it’s own way. “White” Americans consider “African” blood a contaminant, so “one drop” of “African bood” makes one a “black”, even if 7 of his 8 great-grandparents happened to be purely European. But these criteria were imposed on them (although they accept it), while “Arab” identity is inclusive, not exclusive. “Africans” are no more a single ethnicity/race than are “Asians”. It is pure ignorance to assume, as some above have, that “Asian” Arabs are more “pure-blood” than “African” Arabs. The fact is, that Arabs in southwest Asia have interbred with Kurds, Turks, Persians, Indians, Pakistanis, Malays, South Europeans, local Greeks and Hebrews, converted and un-converted Crusaders, and others, as well as East Africans, over the centuries. But those who look at the world thru European eyes assume that, since most of these Arabs are light-skinned, so they must somehow be “more pure of blood” and hence, more truly “Arab”, than those who are darker!
Afro-Arab? this is meaningless, much as the term “Asio-Arab” would be.
How stupid, and what a double-standard. Those who follow this are following, and have internalized, the values and ideals of European racism!
In fact, the Europeans have a grudging envy of the Arabs, who are the heirs of civilization itself (Egyptian, Babylonian, Phoenician, Carthaginian, Hebrew, etc.), and they like to propose that the Arabs are, at least, akin to the folk of Europe, whom they erroneously like to style “Caucasian”.
There is, of course, a cultural identity of Arab, which applies to the Arabized peoples and their descendants. Examples would include descendants of Egyptian Copts, Lebanese Maronites, Crusaders who settled in Palestine, Circassians who settled in Jordan, and many other groupings. (The wife of the late King Hussein of Jordan’s brother is Pakistani).
Those who claim that the Maghreb is Berber with an Arab overlay are in error. There is a large Berber minority in most of the Magreb, but the majority, in all 5 Maghreb regions, is, in fact, Arab. Since Arab identity has never been racial, but paternal (as an outgrowth of tribal identity, in which children belong automatically to the clan and tribe of the father), it is immaterial to Arabs* whether one’s grandmother was a Berber, Persian, Albanian, Indian, Hausa, Wolof, or Turk, or what ‘color’ the child is: if the father is an Arab, so is the child! And no one has the right to tell the Arabs (or any other nation) how to define themselves!
Why fall into the pit of ignorance dug by the Europeans/North Americans? Is it really so important to try to pull dark-skinned Arabs out of their heritage and nationality? This reminds one of watching crabs in a barrel! No one is trying to force those NOT of Arab heritage to “become” Arab! Why is it so compelling to try to convince them that they are something other than what they are? Is this not a non-issue, when Africa already has so many serious problems? What’s the point?
*one caveat: as there are in every nation, the Arabs have individuals inflicted with the disease of “inferiority complex”, who, in general, wish to imitate the Europeans, in behaviour, culture, and social values. So we’re not including this element in the argument, because, be they of white, black, olive, brown, or whatever other skin color, they are outside the equation, since they reject it
Blacks Africans are the creators of civilization not arabs….Ancient Egyptians were black African tribes such as the Nubians, Beja, Fulani, Hausa etc far diffrent from the modern Egyptian decendents of arab, Persian, and Turk decendents of invaders that occupy Egypt today.
think you’re missing the point (or many points!) You refer to “light-skin blacks”, which is like saying “dark-skin whites”. The European slave-owners taught you to what to call yourselves, now you presume to tell Arabs who we are! “Pure” Arabs are not just what you would refer to as “whites”, or (so-called) “caucasians”. Arabs are (ALWAYS!) whatever their father is. Your statement that “black” Arabs in Darfur allegedly promised “light-skinned” babies (?) makes no sense! Nor is it your prerogative to tell an Arab(or anyone else) what his ethnicity is. It is a fact that “black” (like “white”) is not an ethnicity in Africa, and never will be; only in America! While you have taken it upon yourself to determine others’ ethnicity, I would ask if you know even 1% of your own? Just because you are American gives you no right to think you have inherited the Anglo-American “authority” to tell other people who they are! Every Arab, of whatever “color”, can tell you his/her geneology, and knows their tribal background. If you need to limit your identity to the (perceived) color of your skin, that’s your right. It’s not logical, merely a result of imposition by “white” America (black meaning only that one is descended from slaves, regardless of the actual skin color), but it’s your right. BTW, instead of wasting your time “doubting” the heritage of Sudanese (and/or other Arabs who happen to have dark skin), why don’t you try to find out what your own ethnicity is? My years in the US taught me about the inferiority complex/arrogance which leads so many of you people to want to tell others who they are. Try to shed the slave heritage and respect people for who they are, and avoid assuming the right to “teach” them. You expose yourself to ridicule when you take such an attitude with people whose heritage is unbroken, written, and a matter of common knowledge. And in case you’re wondering, no, I am not “black”. Good luck to you.
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but what you fail to realise or ignoreis that Sudanese arabs heritage is a slave history…Sudanese arabs didn’t consider themselves arabs until they were conquered(enslaved) arab invaders and subsequently took on the identit of thier masters..
you needs to do your homework before posting ignorance…blacks are diffrent shades of brown people from Africa which no way correlates with slavery….there are hundreds of millions of blacks that never been enslaved…..Ancient Sudanese(Nubians) and Egypts(Kemites) considered/called themselves blacks.
.S. The statement about how the women of Darfur say that these “Arabs” rape them and tell them they’re going to give them “light-skin ‘Arab’ babies, comes from our American newspapers and television news. I put the “black-skin Arabs” in it because in all of the pictures that I’ve seen of the Janjaweed Arabs they look as black and blacker than African-Americans. I know that the Europeans and European Americans have a history of divide and rule continue to divide and continue to rule practice, but I’ve not heard any Sudanese refute the statements of the Darfurian women so I’m inclined to believe it’s true. What our news media tells us everyday is there’s a “racial” war in Sudan with “Arabs” against “blacks.” They don’t show pictures of the “Arabs” so everyone believes it is white Arabs raping and killing blacks. Sudanese never denies this is true (or it never gets printed in our newspapers)so Americans believe it is white Arabs destroying blacks. This of course is what the white news media wants us to believe. This is why you get so much hostility from those of us that knows it is not white Arabs against blacks. We believe that it’s because Sudanese want to be thought of as being no different than the “white” arabs that they refuse to refute these misleading allegations of the white Americans news media.
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i get your point… but although pure arabs aren’t black when have they ever been white?. I nor most people i know consider Iraqi, Palestenian, or Saudis whites.
Lets do that. But I’ll have the last word.LOL. You say that I’m missing the point(s)but it is you who’ve been missing my point(s). You refer to me as an
anti-Arab racists. I’m one of the most pro-Arab sympathizers in the U.S. I agree that the Europeans who’ve come in to Palestine and ruled it til this day aren’t original jews, but converts. They have been and still are strongly supported by European nations including the formerly European-led United States. You keep talking about Obama being Afro-European, well a great many of us in the U.S. are Afro-European via one European parent, grandparent, or great grandparent. But nearly all of us (including Obama) identify with our African side. You say you’ve lived in the U.S. then, you should know this. If you aren’t solidly White you’re Black in the U.S. There are many people walking around who are referred to as just light-skin Blacks who have a White parent or grandparent. As an African-American Obama has expressed major concern about what’s going on in Sudan and may take some type of action (military or economical) against the Sudan after he’s sworn in Tuesday. I was hoping to get a firm denial of the things our newsmedia is reporting about what’s happening in Darfur and South Sudan. “Arabs carying out a Genocidal war against ‘Blacks’.” I’m not a “anti Arab racist” but I, Obama, and most other Black americans(that’s what we call ourselves)are really concerned about the statement made above being made by our major newsmedia. Good luck to you too, my brother.
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again will you people stop exaggerating African Americans European mixture…Mixed AAs are a small fraction of our greater population far from the standard.
Another stupid thing in Plaut’s GoogleSmear (there are so many) is a typical 189 Fallacy argument. The Zionist Right maintains that you can’t criticize Israeli violations of basic human rights and international law until you first criticize all the other 188 countries in the world. Plaut’s variation is to bring up the Sudan. (There are lots of massacres, deaths and tragedies in the world that I don’t have time to cover in my little blog; indeed, Iraq most often exhausts my time and energies all by itself.) As with the Zionist Right generally, he makes the mistake of racializing the Sudan problems, using anti-Semitic language accusing “Arabs” of killing thousands of “black Africans.”
But the “Arabs” of the Sudan are black (some are brown or lighter shades of black, but not by any means all, and anyway so are e.g. Eritreans just to the south). The Sudanese “Arabs” just speak Arabic or identify with the Arabs. It isn’t a matter of US-style race, which is based on color. Moreover, the people of Darfur are Muslims and many know Arabic. So the massacres in Darfur are not about “Arabs” versus “black Africans.” They are between two groups of Muslim black Africans.
I defy anyone to tell me which is the “black African” and which the “Arab” Janjawid in these pictures.
The rightwing Zionists want to racialize the Sudan conflict in American terms, as “Arab” versus “black African” because they want to use it to play American domestic politics, and create a rift among African-Americans and Arab-Americans. Both of the latter face massive discrimination in contemporary society, and they should find ways of cooperating to counter it. What is happening in Darfur is horrible with regard to the loss of life and the displacement of persons, but the dispute is not about race. It is about political separatism and regionalism.
I am well aware that the GoogleSmear and other techniques of propaganda may well succeed. Horowitz and his minions are funded to the tune of millions, and I am just one lone individual. And, maybe it is even dangerous to tangle with someone who admires Kahane and his followers.
But as of September 11, I’m not going to stand by and let extremists of any stripe drag my country into danger, as the Likud Party is doing. Silence is not an option.
posted by Juan Cole @ 3/26/2005 11:30:00 PM
1 Comments:
At 11:09 PM, WeeZie said…
Professor Cole, you bring up the very crucial point that it seems many arent willing to accept. I continue to tell people that the “Arab’s” in the Sudan are only Arab in the sense that they speak Arabic but no one seems to care that this is so. They seek to ignore language and concentrate on race primarly because since race and racism are the only things people can understand in this culture, they see things soley in those terms.
If a group of English speaking African-Americans from Chicago were to attack and/or kill African Americans in say New Orleans, who might not speak the same type of English as the people in Chicago, than is it right to assume that the English are killing the blacks???? Of course not, but people on the far right are doing exactly this with the crisis in Sudan.
The logic of some of those people baffles me.
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“again will you people stop exaggerating African Americans European mixture…Mixed AAs are a small fraction of our greater population far from the standard.”
I understand the hatred most African-Americans have for European Americans and the reluctance to admit to having their blood in their veins, but millions do have it. You probably wouldn’t admit that “soul brother” Smoky Robinson (with his green eyes) has any European mixture. That boxing champ Muhammad Ali, Colin Powell, Sinbad, and myriads of others got their light skin from some European ancestors. African-Americans are very mixed. You can’t “wash-out” genes by generations of mixed African-Americans mixing with “non-mixed” African-Americans. The African-Americans who are “pure black” are actually a minority. Most are various shades of brown and beige, dependant on their various degrees of European mixture. Whatever you say won’t change that fundamental truth!
@pnao
The fundamental truth is that you are a dumbass with childish logic…Most African Americans are diffrent shades of brown not Colin Powel or Sinbad light but even that dosn’t always equal= European mixture considering there are diffrent shades of black even in the Africans we decend from….Africa has been proven to by phonetically the most diverse continent on Earth it makes since that AAs children of Africa decent would reflect that…Most AAs are mixed ethnically of many African tribes which gives us our deverse looks not Euro mixture…I don’t know how how most AAs manage to have Euro gense considering for most our time in America mixing between blacks and Europeans was illegal…most AAs are pure.
Oh yeah Cassiius Clay was not mixed.