21
Feb
2007
54 Comments
Thanks, Palestine
Decades of Egyptian sacrifice for Palestine, and they repay us by trying to blow up more of our hotels. The tourism industry is Egypt’s bread and butter. Thanks, Palestine
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Palestine doesn’t exist so I don’t know what you are talking about.
You say “they”, I am assuming you are talking about Palestinians, my girlfriend has nothing to do with this, so I don’t know what you are talking about. Generalizing is kinda retarded.
PS: Egyptians were involved in this, not just Palestinians.
Here’s the AP article from link above :
By ASHRAF SWEILAM, Associated Press Writer
Wed Feb 21, 7:21 AM ET
EL-ARISH, Egypt – Egyptian border and security authorities have arrested 23 Palestinians and Egyptians in the Sinai region, including one who was wearing an explosives belt and had crossed from Gaza to Egypt in an underground tunnel, security officials said Wednesday.
The authorities put their security forces in northern Sinai on high alert Wednesday in a bid to make sure that no more armed people were at large. Police set up more checkpoints and border guards were seen using iron poles to probe the ground near the newly found tunnel in a search for more.
One of the Palestinian detainees, a man in his early 20s, was caught Tuesday as he tried to cross the Gaza-Egypt border in an underground tunnel near the Egyptian border city of Rafah. He had wrapped himself in an explosives belt, said the soldier who caught him, Mohammed Abdel Wahab.
The arrested man told Egyptian state security officials that he had been plotting an attack with other Palestinians in Sinai, said an official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.
Eyewitnesses said heavy Egyptian security forces on Wednesday morning surrounded a building in Rafah and arrested two other Palestinians. The security official said the two arrests were linked to the alleged suicide attack plot.
The building’s owner, Mohammed Salem, said one of the Palestinian men had rented an apartment in the building a week ago and had been joined Wednesday by the other.
Egypt has suffered a string of suicide terror attacks in recent years at Sinai tourist resorts. Egypt, Israel and the Palestinians also have debated how best to control the border with Gaza, to prevent smuggling of weapons into Gaza and the infiltration of extremists into Egypt.
————————————————-
At least the Egyptians are now taking Palestinian terrorism seriously.Egypt realizes that the terrorist attack on on tourists at the temple of Hatshepsut in Luxor – where more than 60 tourists were gunned down by Muslim Brotherhood as they exited their tour bus 10 yrs ago had disastrous consequences for Egypt’s tourism industry ,so it now must take action to stop the tunnels under Rafah smuggling in weopons and Palestinian terrorists
Oh come on Patrick, they’re just fighting for their freedom from oppression, remember? Why don’t you just give your “brothers” a state on some of your land? Share some of your “bread and butter” with them? If you do, maybe they won’t blow you to bits.
Yeah, yeah, I know, its easy for you to support them when they are only killing joos…
Linda,
I don’t appreciate your generalizations. If that comment was meant to be hilarious, well, it’s not. If anything, this mentality is over-done and it is nothing short of boring. Please find a new defense, and understand that this website doesn’t dismiss Palestinian crimes merely because they’re done against Jews (oops, sorry, I meant to be funny and say “joos”), nor do we dismiss any Israeli crimes either. The only thing we support here is mutual understanding, that’s why we have people representing many different opinions and beliefs.
And just to reply to the comment on your blog regarding this, not all Palestinians are “murderous psychopaths.” Seriously, for the sake of a better argument, get rid of these tiring generalizations and start considering what’s left outside of mass media. People are people. You don’t look at a tiny minority of people blowing shit up and claim that the entire nation is like that. Do you want the rest of us to judge Israelis based on what the IDF does? No, that would be stupid. Just like calling Palestinians in general “blood thirsty” is stupid.
But yeah, let’s all make this about Muslims and Jews (joooos! lol, etc) and ignore the majority of the population, and what’s leading to such reactions.
PS – Sorry for the general tone of this comment. I just dislike having everything being dragged into a massive PR war, and people turning things into “us” vs. “them.”
Do you not understand that you are to bow down to the exalted lindasog, and sacrifice your life, your home, your land, your food, your children’s very blood, so that she and hers may sleep safe, in quiet contentment, her insane bloodlust and deranged paranoia intact?
For lindasog, there is not even an “us” and “them”…it is “she, and hers”, and everyone else….and she wants everyone else slaughtered.
Do not waste time trying to reason with them, when they want nothing but your throat.
There is one thing we all have to sacrifice, it’s called PRIDE. Let it go, and focus on humanity as a whole. There is no such thing as “us” and “them” when the majority of both sides want nothing but to live in peace.
Linda they are not my brothers. I never claimed them to be. Are you literate? I am Egyptian. They are Palestinian. Two totally different nationalities. I shouldn’t sacrifice for them, unlike you, I didn’t illegally steal their land and drive them from their homes. You ahve a moral obligation to restore them, I do not. Egyptians owe nothing to Palestinians, we are two different people.
Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other.
Well Patrick, they must have some sort of gripe with you if they’re trying to blow up your country.
And you really should check the history books. No one drove anyone out. They ran in advance of your armies, anticipating that you would drive the Jews into the sea.
You lost that war.
Who is “they”? All Palestinians? Maybe you should run around with a stapler, attaching the word “terrorist” to everyone with a Palestinian background. That should make life easier for you. But God forbid one of them escapes and risks being labeled as an actual human being with a right to life!
It is really very sad that this posting, which I read with an understanding eye and a hope for some mutual understanding, has devolved into exactly what Esra’a asked that it not — us vs. them. Once again we have one side lumping all Arabs, Muslims, whatever in the bad camp. And another side doing the same to all Israelis (or Jews, or whatever). Patrick didn’t even mention Israelis. And I would be surprised if Linda personally drove anyone off their land. (Where she stands now notwithstanding).
This could have been an opportunity to say “hey Patrick, we in Israel feel your pain. Most of us truly want peace with the Palestinians but often feel helpless in the face of the cycle of violence. We love the Sinai, we have peace with your country and we feel the anger you feel, maybe in some part of you, you can recognize the pain that we “regular people” feel every time there is a bombing in Israel. You don’t have to like our country’s policies, but imagine a group of humans who gets equally upset.” And maybe Patrick would have said “yeah, I guess Israel is a country of people, not simply an evil empire.”
Yeah, that would have been great. I usually feel hopeful here. Right now, I’m feeling kinda hopeless. I hope it passes soon…
This is the state of the world we live in.
One woman inserts her personal agenda just for muckraking purposes…she seeks to divide, so her extremist right-wing cause may conquer….and that is life.
This is the way people behave these days.
This is why my country is in the state that it is in….for they desire permanent war, to amass profits. Egypt is the only country with which Israel has a peace treaty, for better or worse, thanks to President Carter….and the neocons HATE that. They hate the fact that world leaders even had the temerity to attempt peace in our time, and they have to demonize the wrong people, even if they are forever misguided in doing so, and have unclean motives.
You felt angry and betrayed by a neighboring people that you expected better from, and that’s quite understandable…but know that it is not all those people that have attacked your nation….I am sure many Palestinians are aggrieved by such attacks, but are unable to speak out, just as many Israelis and even many of us in America are suppressed and even persecuted for expressing unpopular ideas.
You have to resist commenters such as lindasog, when they mock and ridicule you for trying to have solidarity with another people. When you are screwed over and you protest, such operatives (and they are operatives, make no mistake) see a chink in your armor, and it is an imperative for them to exploit it. But lindasog chose the particular hardline faction she is aligned with, of her own volition, and just because she elected to live in darker shadows doesn’t mean you have to surrender to being undermined psychologically. You have your own beliefs, and your own interests.
I hope the turmoil in your part of the world comes to a speedy conclusion. I am ashamed and embarrassed that so many of my countrymen have had such a hand in promoting such unrest and strife, for their own personal enrichment.
Please don’t let this all make you bitter, and harden your heart.
That way, ALL of these extremist elements will have won.
I think this entire conversation got completely twisted and really screwy and a million miles from what Patrick had initially intended to communicate.
I also have said here many times that there is no language that I know of that can effectively communicate about groups and avoid generalization…
Maybe we should use Ms. for every catagory that exists? The fact of the matter is that both Muslims and their supporters, that I have read here, and Jews and their supporters, that I have read here, make general group references…and people only flip on them when it does not agree with their world view…
I think we at times are forced to speak in generalities for editorial sake or we would spend pages qualifying so many of our words…It is not so easy to do…
“Canadians…er of French/German distraction..er..that live in Montreal..er..that say aboot and eeey, ah that live in south Montreal..ah that are children of single parents..ah that are…”
Howie, I agree and agree. This whole convo went MILES away from where (I believe) Patrick wanted it to go. (Hence my whole comment about him not even mentioning Israelis until a poster brought it up) And, I know that generalities are hard to avoid, but aren’t we all here to meet the people beyond the generalities?
When we all stop being faceless countries and start being actual people, maybe it will make it harder for our governments to attack each other…. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but better than not even trying to know each other beyond the labels. When did I get so kumbaya-ish? Maybe part of it has been the time I’ve spent here, getitng to know the “other,” or at least get a glimpse of their thoughts, daily lives, etc……
But knowing the affiliations of those you communicate with can be instructive.
If Patrick reads a hostile response from an everyday, normal, Israeli schoolgirl, who goes about her life without making trouble for anyone and just wants all the adults to get a clue and stop endangering the world, her message will carry a certain respectability….
But when you get ridiculed by a middle-aged American right-wing hatchet-jobber with Kahanist sympathies and a true contempt for peace and justice, it can (and should) carry an entirely different resonance to one who has their whole life ahead of them, and doesn’t want to get caught up in anyone else’s apocalyptic visions just to make a point about escalating violence…
On the other hand, one could successfully argue that, if you’re an Egyptian murdered by a Palestinian, or murdered by a Jew, dead is dead and it won’t matter in the final analysis….the result is the same.
Liora-
This is why I have been so drawn to these blogs…You are quite right in that we need to get to know each other…I watch how these conversations often deteriorate into “shouting” matches, name-calling, cursing etc. However, a good deal of that is expected because as our Holy Book notes “we ain’t just talkin about chopped livah here” …this is highly charged stuff.
Each generation of youth tends to think that “they” will be the wave of change. The jury is out on today’s 20 somthings…but you have something new…an ability to directly talk with the “enemy”. In this case…as Esra’a points out in her article…our enemy (I am not going to keep putting that in parathensis) has been pretty much communicatively shut off from us…the Internet world is an opportunity to circumvent the “Sand Curtain” or “Humos Curtian” and find out that they are not much different than us…and we not much different than them.
So after the shouting dies down and folks stop worrying so much about proving the other wrong or justifying themselves…we can settle down to the painful task of threshing out Truth…not debating…which I despise…but discussing, analyzing and trying to find real solutions.
So it is frustrating and even quite immature at times…but this is a valuable tool.
Kumbaya? Well…didn’t Elvis Castello ask “what’s wrong with a little peace, love and understanding?” Just look at that…a rock star is the Mesiach…or er 12th Imam…or ah Second Coming…oh I hope I am not making any generalizations here…
Stinking pearl diving backwards Baharaini Canadian aboot brain-frozen eeey sayers.
I find this post troubling. Given the mixture of Palestinians and Egyptians, it looks pretty obvious like these guys were transnationalist Islamist militants and didn’t act in some sort of official governmental fedayin operation on behalf of Palestinian nationalism. Granted, both groups (militant Islamists and Palestinian nationalists) hate Israel, but taking the actions of a mixed group of Palestinians and Egyptians who were acting in an unofficial capacity and saying, “Thanks Palestine” is obvious scapegoating and is really inappropriate.
I don’t know what planet you are from, but when a war is about to start, people tend to run away from the warzone. Do you know why there are millions of refugees all over the world? Trust me, they didn’t become refugees because they were waiting for the invading army to beat someone…
the same they Patrick was speaking of:
esra’a:
Maybe Patrick should send a thank you note to everyone in gaza.
Why do you read one thing into my generalization and something different into the same generalization made by Patrick?
Because your generalizations are much more common and dare I say, more dangerous, with the tedious “oh no they’re all running around targeting Joos” and your sarcastic and baseless remarks regarding how you’re the sole victim of Palestine’s “crimes” and you’re apparently just trying to survive the atrocities.
You love labeling people – criminals vs, innocent civilians, when that generalization and simplicity is the furthest thing from the truth. I am tired of this mentality that I am being more and more exposed to even on sites like these where we hope to eliminate that “us vs. them” feeling and have us all unite together against all forms of extremism.
Liora’s comment was spot on and that is the reaction that we should be hoping for and eventually expecting from both Palestinians and Israelis. Yours is just dragging the conflict into more years of bloodshed on both sides. If you keep justifying your crimes against them, they’ll justify their crimes against your people. If you fight, don’t expect others not to fight back.
And you should’ve given credit to the person who actually spotted the “generalization” – it was observed by the same commenter who was whining about how Palestinians are murderous psychopaths while you’re angels and peace agents fighting in the name of “defense.” With all due respect, get a grip on yourselves. When it becomes “us” and “them,” that’s a clear sign that one side has to be destroyed for the other to survive. And no war, NO WAR, has ever been won with that kind of mentality – it will just keep dragging and cause nothing but trouble and racism. If this is the kind of world you wanna live in, go ahead and maintain your stance. Otherwise, change your attitude.
This is irrelevant. http://www.logicalfallacies.info
Enjoy.
A groyser tzuleyger You are Lindasog. The same Linda that that screams at the employees in the Publix at Aventura. You’re giving all of us “Joos” a bad name. Leave these kids alone they are trying to promote peace through dialouge. Unlike you!
Sorry Esra’a but I disagree with you. Patrick and Linda are running in parallel here. If you didn’t know the personal agendas of either one of them, I bet you wouldn’t mitigate one’s attitude in this post as being worse than the other, you’d find them equally inadmissible. Patrick rushed to paint himself as a betrayed victim at the hand of all Palestine no less than Linda did. I find that to be a truly dangerous attitude … to blame an entire nation for your feelings of victimization that come at the hands of people with a certain ethnic identity. Imagine if the people of the USA copped an embittered and sarcastic attitude, “Thanks Egypt, after all the money we give you!” after 9/11 because Mohammed Attah came from Egypt. That’s essentially what Patrick is doing now and it’s not fair.
All that said, I hope you understand, I am not blaming you or Patrick, nor am I providing cover for Linda whatsoever. I am certain that you and I ultimately agree with each other … that bigotry and discrimination and blanket categorizations in which individual behavior is rendered irrelevant, are wrong. But, to me, rather than castigate people over (common) failures, I notice that we’re all here, willing to dialogue, even if angry, irritated, and intolerant of certain attitudes. But, at the end of the day, at least we’re here, even for all our differences, looking for something, whatever it may be — dialogue, understanding, a way to work through frustration, desperation to make the future better — but that very part of us that actively chose to come here and engage others … that is the part that should be cultivated in all of us.
We’re all a work in progress. I am sure both Patrick and Linda can improve their attitudes with the right partners who understand them, especially if we don’t consider them as stupid or completely eff’d up, just emotional.
Thanks for this blog.
Vanguard…
Once again…I don’t think Patrick was condeming a whole people…we all editorialize.
I do agree with you on your criticizism of Esra’a about the generalization thing…however…I still don’t think most people here, when refer to Arabs or Christians, Jews that that ware writing off millions to hundreds of millions in one fell swoop. Like I said earlier…we would have to develop a new language like “somearabs”…percentagePalestinians” “muchbutnotalljews”…
Let’s chill a bit…
Pearl divers
Melissa, I don’t know who you think you are talking to, but I don’t shop at the publix in aventura.
I agree with this lady…
As a victim of the Dahab bombing last year, I am sad to know that those El-Arishi-nut-jobs are still plotting more attacks with the help of the Palestinians, but I am so relieved to know that some of them were captured. Sick Fucks! ( And before anyone gets all P.C. on my ass I have the right to say that since we are still recovering last year’s Sinai bombing.)
What really gets me though is how people just pass it off as acts against Israelis, so it’s not such a big deal. How warped is it that the death of innocent Israeli is worth more than the death of an innocent Egyptian. If these Jihadi Fucks wanted to kill just Israelis that could so in Israel but it isn’t as simple as that. This El Arish group believe that it is just to wage Jihad against Muslim that are not fundamental like themselves. Muslim that would visit a place as sinful as Sharm or Dahab. These are Muslims out to kill other Muslims yet it is constantly downplayed and written off as an Israeli issue. When Al Jazeera refers to the Taba bombing they only mention the 11 Israelis killed- not the 12 other Egyptians. Maybe I’m really off here but I think that the value of a person’s life shouldn’t be lessened because of their nationality and Egyptians should be fucking outraged that this is happening on their soil, to their people, and by their own people but instead they nearly sympathize with terrorists as long as there is some Israeli blood on the ground at the end of the day. As long as the Middle East keeps framing all of it’s problems around Israel, they will continue to suffer at the hands of there fellow brothers unaware.
Actually…I agree with several of her points…some is a bit overstated…but I guess getting blown up can put you in a bad mood.
Howie you’re absolutely right. In the TAba attacks, Egyptians were just as much the victims as Israelis. In DAhab and Sharm, Egyptians were moreso victims.
Then maybe the subject for this post should’ve been “Blame Palestine.”
A few “sick fucks” blow themselves up or choose to kill somebody and an entire nation gets blamed for it. That is a horrible way to draw conclusions about an entire nation and its struggle for stability. Not only is it an inaccurate perception, but it’s also unfair to the many Palestinians who were also victims of Israeli crimes and vice versa. People kill. People fight back when they are killed. It’s called “war,” and you don’t point fingers at war unless hatred and propaganda forces you to do so. People have the right to life, as Israelis and as Palestinians, and you don’t ever justify these deaths or dismiss an entire nation because of little incidents. Don’t dehumanize nations, and more importantly don’t put up with the pathetic cries for attention and “I’m the victim” rantings. Everyone’s a victim at war, regardless of your nationality or labels or beliefs or sexual orientation or color of your skin. Everyone’s a victim, and you shouldn’t overshadow or underestimate other people’s horrific experiences.
If you define struggle for stability as strapping bombs on children and sending them out to kill themselves and other children, then, Palestine is most definitely at war.
It’s not a few “sick fucks” anymore, if it ever was. Their duly elected government is a group of what can only be called “sick fucks” under your definition.
At least one member of their duly elected government is a mother who raised and encouraged her own children to strap a bomb on themselves and sent them out to kill themselves and other children. She encourages other mothers to do the same, and she encourages other mothers to have more children so they can do the same. She is honored and applauded as a “mother of palestine.” Under your definition, she is a “sick fuck.”
Yes, getting blown up can you put you in a bad mood. and yes, people fight back when they are killed.
In this war, Palestinians are justified in targeting and killing Israelis, whether they are innocent children at play or grandmothers in the supermarket, or teenagers in a disco. and in this war, Israelis are not justified in fighting back in any way, shape or form. If they do, you call it a crime.
Palestinians send their children out to kill Israelis and when they succeed, in return, Israel knocks down their house. Look into your heart and ask yourself, would that be your response? If they had succeeded in Egypt, would knocking down their house satisfy you?
Last year a palestinian burn victim was caught going to a hospital to blow up the Jewish doctors who saved her life. They put her in jail. Is she an innocent person illegally imprisoned by the zionist regime?
How can you defend such things?
As for the war, if the palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace. If the Israelis layed down their weapons, there would be no more Israelis.
Tell that to the Lebanese…
Ah, the laughable struggle for victimhood continues.
She should tell that to the billions donated annually to Israel’s cause, and to anyone with compassion.
Because murder, no matter WHO you are, is always a crime. And when you justify it in the name of self-defense, you are indirectly taking part in that crime.
Treat people as people. Stop playing as if this is all just a tribal game to you and you’re struggling for attention and sympathy. When you label people the way you shamelessly do, they will label you back, and instead of whining about it, do something constructive to avoid the misconceptions.
Defend what, you mean these rare cases which your media roars about and you choose to let such cases represent an entire nation? How is that anything BUT a clueless generalization? If you want to play the game of selective coverage, then go ahead. But don’t highlight these cases and not expect anyone to highlight the crimes that were caused by Israelis. I will not engage in such a discussion here, but it seems as if that is what you are aiming for, because remember, to you it’s a game of “us” vs. “them” and not a statement of humanity.
I feel sorry for people who think the way you do. I really, really feel sorry that such people are the ones who are stopping everyone in the region from advancing and moving forward. The ones who justify their own crimes but condemn the crimes that take place in another nation’s name. The ones who hide behind destructive and blind nationalism and refuse to see the good side of the “enemy,” whom they wish to have no connection with whatsoever, not even through simple and harmless dialogue (without resorting to baseless accusations the way you have.) The ones who think they have been exposed to the “truth” in that there is a war that must be fought for the sake of their own safety, but at the expense of innocent civilians from the “other side” which they have dehumanized through propaganda techniques and brutish misunderstanding. The ones who have no hope in a stable future without destroying an entire nation.
Just as I expected.
hezbollah murders a few Israelis and kidnaps two more and you blame Israel.
palestinians blow up children but Israel is the criminal for knocking down a house.
And you want claim this is a place for a open and honest discussion about events? You are a terrorist apologist and I’m done with you.
I think I need to throw a pillow in your direction in an attempt to wake you up and get you to start reading things in the realistic lense.
In nowhere in that post did I justify terrorism.
In nowhere in that post did I blame Israel.
In nowhere in that post did I claim that either one or the other is the sole victim.
With all due respect, get your head out of your ass and start arguing with people AFTER you actually read their posts.
Esra’a
You really ought to stop and understand that words mean things. Any act is morally neutral until context is examined. If someone dies at the hands of another, it can range from a moral evil (premeditated murder), to amoral (death as the result of a tragic accident) to a moral good (killing another in an act of self-defense)
All killing is not morally the same. If it were then rape and lovemaking would be morally the same because they both involve acts of sexual intercourse.
If you see no moral difference between the Israeli’s and the Arab-Palestinians (so designated because the historical geographic area of the ME named by the Romans in an attempt to wipe out its Jewish heritage and the destruction of the Second Temple…so the historical ‘Palestinians’ were Jewish) and if you see some sort of “moral equivalency” between Israel which accepted a two-state solution in 1948 and Judenhass Arabs who did not, rejecting their first historical Palestinian nation which contained a majority of Arab-Palestinians (a “cultural invention” of Egyptian Yassar Arafat, just as the current wave of Temple denial is a legacy of the now dead thug) and declared immediate war on the nascent Jewish majority state… then you have, at best, a broken moral compas.
Not that it is unusual given the nihilistic cult of Leftism of Western Europe (now in the throes of self-dhimmitude to aggressive efforts to Islamisize it into accepting Shari’a) and such appeasement efforst of the American Left… even former President Jhimmi Carter (who never met a sociopathic dictator he didn’t like and apologize for) has dropped the other shoe in revealing his anti-Semitism.
Moral equivalency has the effect of blaming the victim.
Those who are merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful
Own your own moral confusion, Esra’a.
sorry. I didn’t close the italics properly.
That’s not called an actual fact; it’s called a justification. Hardly anyone is being killed in the name of self-defense. Innocent people everywhere are being slaughtered, and you’re telling me this is a “moral good”?
As for your re-written piece of history, perhaps you should refresh and read this.
Israel. Judaism. There is a difference. Not agreeing with Israeli policies does not make a person an anti-Semite. Why do you love to hide behind the “anti-Semite” accusation? It’s tedious, and 99% of the time it’s an inaccurate representation of whoever you speak of. Many Jews disagree with what Israel is doing, they too get accused of being anti-Semites. It is absurd.
If you disagree with someone’s policies or opinions, you may call them out on it. But for your sake and everyone else’s, stop labeling people without understanding what they actually believe or stand for. It’s turning the “anti-Semite” accusation into a bigger joke than what it already is.
And before anyone even starts – spare us with the “evil jooz.” It’s far from being funny.
Oh really? Well, I’ve worked in a District Attorney’s office for almost ten years. I’ve yet seen one case of a person who killed another in self-defense brought up on first degree murder charges.
Did you happen to see this?
So, do you honestly think that 70 y/o American who killed the armed 20 y/o thief is guilty of murder?
Jhimmi Carter is an anti-Semite and it has nothing to do with “criticizing” Israeli policies.
When Israel is held to a different standard than the Arab-Pals; when Israel is blamed for Hezbollah’s unilateral aggression from Lebanon; when Israel is told they do NOT have the right of self-defense, then Israel is really The World’s Jew and the “I’m just criticizing, I’m not an Jew-heter” is as transparent as a white supramicist saying “I don’t hate blacks, some of my best friends are blacks…”
Grammar error — I’ve yet seen one should be “I’ve yet to see one”
Let me make this straight.
When it comes to one-to-one individuals, it is hardly the same as dropping bombs on an entire nation the way we have seen in Lebanon.
When you kill a bunch of innocent civilians in the NAME of self-defense, yes, that’s murder. And I don’t buy that “but the terrorist was hiding there!” either. It’s a shield for the military to hide behind. I personally choose not to dehumanize entire civilians and justify it by claiming it’s “self defense” when it’s an unnecessary war crime.
As for your 2nd part, you are acting as if Israel is the victim in the media, when it is clearly not. You won the PR war, congratulations! I hope you are happy.
Killing over 800 innocent civilians like we saw in Lebanon as a reaction to a few rockets that the mindless Hezbollah chose to launch is not a logical reaction.
And please don’t act as if Hezbollah represents Arabs, Muslims, or the public opinion in our societies. I assure you that they do NOT, and we have spoken many times against them, so there goes your “us vs. them” mentality. Many activists in the region, including writers of this website chose to unite against all forms of extremism the way we have described on our website. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other websites you can go to that justify terrorism on either side and where people can fight back and fourth on who’s right and who’s wrong. I won’t do that, not here anyways. And I won’t let this discussion turn into that. You’re either a decent human being with enough compassion to realize that there is enough harm being done by both nations or you’re just in this for the big fight. And I’m not going to play “who’s the victim?” with you.
Oh… Esra’a
. Granted. However, Israel national identity is a Jewish one.
If I said something like “You know, I have nothing against Italians, it just that I consider Italian nationalism racist and the nation of Italy illegitimate” you’d pick up a clue or two that I was racist against Italians.
Fix your moral compas, Esra’a.
You say my name way too much.
Before I fix my “moral compas,” fix your perception. I live in an Islamic country. Does it represent tthe Islamic faith? Hardly. Politics and religion don’t go hand and they rarely ever compliment each other, you of all people should know this.
Being a racist against Israelis is not being an anti-Semite. If you go to the U.S, I assure you, that you will find Jews who are quite racists against their Israeli brethren. That makes them racist. Not anti-Semites.
Do you believe that or do you enjoy beginning posts with blatant lies?
Israel BOMBED ALL of Lebanon?
No.
And did the government just wake up one morning and say “you know, today would be a good day to bomb Lebanon.”
And let’s consider your attempt at restricting self-defense as “one-on-one”. Are you saying that nations have no moral right to respond to acts of war? No right to defend their own citizens? The US had no business bombing Japan after Pearl Harbor? Coming to the aid of England/France, et al to help them respond to German aggression?How about overthrowing the Taliban after 9/11?
When you deny the right self-defense, you justify murderers.
That why true pacificists are functionally evil.
You realize that is what you are doing, right, Esra’a?
I enjoy beginning posts with blatant lies with the sheer mission to piss you off. Will you go away now?
That was the joke of the century, seeing as the Taliban had virtually nothing to do with 9/11.
I’m not saying it never happened.
I’m saying it’s unjust. And what’s even more cruel is when people like you justify it.
How many innocent civilians do you remember dying in Afghanistan on 9/11? I don’t think you would recall. You were too busy counting the lives that matter, versus the ones who don’t.
Seriously, if I want a cheerleading nationalist to pose as the victim, I’ll call you. But for now, cut us all some slack.
And let me clarify one thing -
I meant it.
I won’t let these types of discussions take place here and have this website be a mirror of all the other websites that you frequent, where emphasizing “us” and “them” takes place. We here are attempting to do exactly the opposite which is why there are Israelis here who post alongside Arabs and Muslims. If you don’t like that, there is a great spot at LGF waiting for you.
Frankly…I am confused…but once again…it is very clear how folks can look at the same data (always distorted by the various propogandists from all sides of course)…and see things SO differently.
I follow Esra’a's thinking and pretty often disagree with it…at least on the Palestinian/Israeli issue. But she is not a Jew hater or an Israel hater…that I am completely convinced of…in fact, like her Prohpet, I believe Esra believe the Jews have a right to Israel (man that might set off some fireworks…but I have read it in the Koran myself).
I believe the Palestinians have rights and am sympathetic to some of their claims. Many got a bad deal…as have we Jews (far more often through history and far worse) and so have many other people.
Still…I see the Palestinians as being the main cause for lack of progress…They keep restorting to terrorism and cannot come up with an intelligent consensus approach…moderation is crushed, liberalism can be death and if they are not busy fighting us…they are threatening and killing each other. I cannot see how Israel can make peace with them under such circumstances.
And Esra’a…I do resent the comment about “a few rockets”. The count was 5,000 or more and would have been more given the opportunity. All of Lebanon was not bombed..and fewer civilians would have been injured it Hiz. did not set up camp in civilian areas. By-the-way…most of those 5,000 rockets were aimed at big cities…not army bases…Hiz. and Syrian and Iran are destroying Lebanon..along with the Lebanese themselves with their bloody civil wars…but that is another story.
Anyhow…I just don’t feel so sorry for the Palestinians anymore…not when I consistently see polls taken where huge majorities support terror attacks. And they are not few…they are regular and few people here understand that far more are prevented than successful or it would really be a disaster. This thing could have been settled long ago…but the Palestinians and their handlers always hedged…just like Hamas is doing today…killing yet another opportunity for peace…same tragic story.
People tah-tah and brush off that Israel gave back Sinai, Gaza and left Lebanon. Sinai has worked out…the other two have not. There is a peace agreement with Jordan. The Muslims kill each other at a far far greater rate than any Israeli action. What have the Palestinians given? 6 months without terror, 3 months, 2 months…??? Nope…even in quiet periods there have always been attempts…and during relatively quiet periods…there has always typically been progress in bettering people’s lives.
So me…I don’t see it at all the same, at all relative or at all equal…I think the Palestinians need to start with their own leadership, their schools, and their behavior. If terror truly stops, positive change with happen and a fair settlement shoudl be arrived at. If it doesn’t stop…I personally would give in to nothing…not under those conditions
Fine, I exaggerated. But only for the sake of irritating Darleen.
Can we all just forget this ever happened and go out for shwaramas or something?
Esra’a-
“Can we all just forget this ever happened and go out for shwaramas or something?”
To all who come to this blog…this is why I love this woman. Passion, caring and ultimately a deep desire for reconciliation and truth.
And after I saw her picture recently…I feel even more deeply in love with this beauty…vomiting into an airplane bag…
I have sold that picture to Playboy…she is on next month’s cover…next to George Bush Sr. vomiting and fainting at that Japanese event so many years ago.
It don’t get sexier than that.
Mrs. Esra’ Fatima Goldberg…has a very nice ring
(Sound of two hands clapping sharply twice)
“Woman…my shawarma!”
You never cease to amuse me Howie, this is yet another one of those long discussions where we disagree with everything the other says but maintain our friendship through our weird tastes in humor. I respect you despite our political differences and take pride in calling you a friend.
By the way, that picture of the girl vomiting into an airplane bag wasn’t me. That was my Omani friend Iman. I haven’t posted a picture of me yet, I don’t wanna make the other girls here jealous.
If we did not have passionate and difficult issues to discuss, would this not be
Middle East Youth for Receipe Sharing
or
Middle East Youth the Salavation of the California Desert Kangaroo Rat?
We get excited…and then go back and think…we both have problems with people who get excited and don’t think very much.
Friends until the oil runs out and Baharinis go back to pearl diving and until the money runs back and Americans go back to buffalo hunting…
Shit…no more buffalo!!!
Any job openings for pearl divers?
“That why true pacificists are functionally evil.”
‘Nuff said, on such “morally fixed” dialogue….and “antisemitism” is always the default playing card to be whipped out….in my opinion, Egypt should adopt a far more isolationist stance, and not let their desire for peace interfere with rational measures for internal security and Israeli/American pity-partying….
Most of you people are off your rocker that try to defend the indefensible. If the Palitianian is not bombing then they are supporting the bombers by allowing them to hid in there neighborhoods. Sooner or later the Jews are going to be forced to use low yeild nukes to stop this insane madness. But all the Palis have to do is stop the bombing and killing and there will be peace. End of story all the other stuff is just so much bullshit. The murdering palis will bring about there own destruction.
Most of you people are off your rocker that try to defend the indefensible. If the Israeli is not bombing then they [sic] are supporting radicalism by starving the people. Sooner or later the Palestinians are going to be forced to use stronger artillery to stop this insane madness. But all the Israelis have to do is stop the bombing and killing and there will be peace. End of story all the other stuff is just so much bullshit. The murdering Israelis will bring about there [sic]own destruction.
Kawthar
I hope you can count. The numbers will tell the story and when the nukes do finally hit that is all she wrote. Bye Bye murdering Palis.