Whatever. Maybe you’ll actually do something when you get off your ass and not expect those who were the “loudest for Kareem” to do it.

I’m done with this thread.

And don’t give me this “pro” or “anti” shit. You’re the one making up a whole world of “West” vs “East” by claiming why the West supports one prisoner and not the other while of course, you never even started a campaign for those you think deserve the attention. Don’t you think that’s just a bit laughable? Do you even try?

2) What? This doesn’t even make any sense.

3) I think the fact that I dismiss these accusations pretty clearly shows my attitude towards them. I wouldn’t care about them if I didn’t think they were totally false. I was NOT justifying it, and it is because of accusations like this thrown out by you that even talking about the issues I raised is becoming a crime. This is a logical mistake by you in thinking that I am justifying these accusations.

4) No, I am not widening any gap at all. This is pure bullshit on your part, and I don’t know how you came up with that absurdity. Nor can I understand how it’s not glaringly obvious that support from foreign governments is shady and should not be accepted at face value. You think that government, whichever it might be, whether it’s Saudi Arabia talking about Palestine or the US talking about Karim, is actually doing this out of the goodness of its heart? Come on, this is the kind of naivety that will lead to disasters.

Of COURSE we are all human rights activists fighting for one cause, and I am NOT basing things on race and ethnicity AT ALL. But it is a HUGE and problematic mistake to pretend that nobody acting in this field can have other interests. Do you actually buy a single word that George Bush says about human rights and democracy?!? Are we so under his spell that we can’t add 2 and 2 together to see what is actually happening?

It seems that you’ve split the world into only 2 categories of “pro-Kareem” or “anti-Kareem.” I am saying that there are many more categories, and it is important and useful to look at all of them. Why you’ve decided to start this huge attack on me for things I haven’t even said is still a mystery to me. Seriously, calm down. This animosity is totally uncalled for and will be unproductive.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN, OR ABOUT KAREEM, I AM TALKING ABOUT ITS RECEPTION.

That is a direct result of the campaign and thus you are talking about the campaign and discrediting it from the work it does.

You are trying to make a false statement here saying “the free kareem campaign was received this way because….” NO. For the bajillionth time no one ever gave a shit about Kareem until people began forcing this case down the media’s throat until it reported it. THIS is why it was well received and widely publicized, NOT because of what Kareem said which IS the implication you are trying to make.

Here are the other ridiculous and baseless assumptions you make.

In the following quote you are expecting those who were the loudest for Kareem to do something about this professor while of course you yourself refuse to. So, we, the loudest for Kareem’s cause, are supposed to do something you are not willing to do yourself? We have THAT much time and energy? You think we are some damned NGO running around trying to free every political prisoner in the world? You said in the past you didn’t expect us to do this – yet here you are in this very post saying it.

Loudest for Kareem…. SILENT for another prisoner…. does that mean we have to be the loudest for all, even for cases some of us never heard of or could personally relate to?

At the same time, those who have been the loudest about Abdelkarim Soliman have managed to remain silent regarding the case of Professor Sami al-Arian, a Palestinian-American academic who has been in prison since 2003, despite being acquitted of all but two charges in 2005, the other two voted on by the jury 10-2 in favor of his innocence. All of this, in America.

Here’s a hint – start a website for him?

Another assumption -

And yet, those cases must earn the sympathy and attention of those who think themselves supporters of human rights and proponents of just societies, at all times. Otherwise we run the risk of being tools, willingly or unwillingly, rather than catalysts for change.

What did you do to earn the sympathy of the world? How do you expect these cases to ever earn the sympathy and attention of human rights activists worldwide if you yourself aren’t doing anything to mobilize them? Can you tell me? Do you think you magically gain an audience rather than earning it?

For one, the international and partisan component of these campaigns make it very easy for domestic opposition movements to be accused of the regimes of being pawns of foreign governments.

So instead of correcting these bad assumptions – you are actually justifying it and not making an attempt to prove that these aren’t “Western” or “Zionist” agents rallying for the cause of justice and not just for Kareem himself. Kareem in many ways speaks for all of us.

You are stating this comfortably, while those of us, Arab activists, who attend conferences worldwide are the ones being insulted, mocked, threatened and targeted because we are being accused of something that YOU are justifying, that YOU are telling us to feed. No, I will not feed these people’s stupidity by implying that anything remotely supported by Western NGOs is Western. I know you don’t believe it, but by saying “ignore this” instead of “fixing it” you are helping this mentality grow. I will not “localize” my campaigns and make them “for Arabs only.” This is for anyone who gives a shit about free speech. Everyone at all, no matter who or where or what your political background is, we accept all kinds of support and this is precisely what led to our success.

For activists, these discrepancies mean that the mobilization of international support or solidarity should not be considered a success or an end in and of itself. In fact, it seems that international solidarity–especially when it comes from foreign governments or others with vested interests–only complicates their situation.

Pure bullshit. You are widening the gap between “East” and “West.” Us and them. Enemies and victims. We are successful because we made our point, no matter what you think. They should be considered successful because they are widely known and Kareem’s case is mobilizing many Arab activists to speak up for justice and human rights. Yet here you are – implying that anything gaining international recognition and support is doomed to an “ideological failure” of some sort. Bullshit, this is a horrible way of thinking. You should never limit your audience or staff, ever. Involve the world in your struggle. This is how it should be.

Can you for once second admit that we are all human rights activists fighting for one cause (ensuring human rights for all) rather than basing things by race and ethnicity? Or would you rather promote racism and “US” vs. “THEM”? As well as shutting the outside world from our world?

I never accused the Free Kareem movement of being Western or of having a Western agenda. This is more defamation about what I’ve written and what I’ve suggested. Please show me one line from this post where I even HINT that the Free Kareem campaign is Western or serves a foreign agenda. Please do it. In fact, I say the complete opposite, and for the millionth time, I will clarify it one more time since reading is now a challenge: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN, OR ABOUT KAREEM, I AM TALKING ABOUT ITS RECEPTION. Is that clear now?

Finally, I have NEVER said that people are justified in their beliefs, or that they have a point. I am explaining why they feel a certain way. If you are incapable of seeing the value of this exercise, then you live in a hopeless world where you can never interact with anybody that has a different perspective on the world than you do. How do you expect to convince somebody to change their mind if you don’t even understand their mind right now and why they have their beliefs? This step is so important when trying to argue to somebody–it’s almost fundamental. I’m amazed that you think this constitutes “justification.” I would repeat my earlier request for you to show me anything that I have written that says people are “justified” in entertaining conspiracy theories.

“Western”

And then you complain about the generalizations that people place upon Arabs. Because, obviously, all Western media outlets want one thing and are under the same political umbrella.

People have no reason to believe that this campaign has a “Western” agenda because a)

It’s not Western. It’s global, and b)

It’s led and is being funded by Arab-Muslims. So tell me what reason do they have not to believe this? Tell me why I shouldn’t blame them for being utterly blind and if I may add, stupid?

So there is no reason, and there is no justification for their beliefs, don’t try and cover up their stupidity by claiming that “they have a point,” I know you think they’re wrong but you should realize the fact that they are also misled.

I am sick and tired of these associations and even more sick of people trying to justify others having them. There is no reason to believe these things.

I realize you are in an uncomfortable position campaigning on behalf of somebody with very unpopular views in his country, and that you’re fed up with people accusing you of being Western agents or whatever else you’re hearing these days. But you have to understand that there is a reason why people are accusing you of those things (AND THEY ARE WRONG, OF COURSE), and that is because of the selective attention people in the West pay to prisoners and others in the Middle East. Read my post again. This is what I am talking about when I say that politicized solidarity is DANGEROUS because it poisons the discourse about prisoners and the campaigns surrounding them. Nobody who is genuinely working for human rights, like yourself, wants to be called a traitor, or a spy, or an agent, or something like that, when they are working to protect their freedoms. You know that this happens because you are experiencing that right now. I am suggesting it happens in part because of the politicization of the West’s attention. For example the State Department and other spokesmen issued condemnation after condemnation last week while the ‘elections’ were held in Syria–but you can be sure that few people took this seriously. “What does the White House have to say about elections in Saudi Arabia and Jordan,” they will ask, even though what was said is true (in both cases). This is the reality of the way people behave, and you should realize that. You cannot look at these things and ignore their context, because their context does have a meaning and an effect, today and in the future. All I am asking is that we pay attention to it.

That aside, a lot of what you have said is also wrong. Kareem’s case gained attention because of your efforts–which I agree with you are completely unique–but I was looking at the secondary question of why his case even has that potential. Do you really think the Muslim Brotherhood can get the same sympathy from the same people in the West as Abdelkarim even if your campaign is replicated? It is not just a matter of getting the information out there. People in America hear about Iraq all day long on the news, but everybody pretty much ignores this. As widely distributed as that information is, there is no cause attached to it. Even when people get information, like about Abdelkarim, they choose on their own what to accept and what to act on. I am asking why people in a completely foreign setting with no connection to Egypt whatsoever want to act on Abdelkarim and not others. Actually, it’s even more specific than that: it is not simply why they DON’T act on others (which is completely acceptable, you can’t handle every single issue in the world singlehandedly so there are many legitimate explanations for this) but why they WON’T.

That aside, I have no pretensions about the lack of effort and work I’ve put into supporting the Free Kareem campaign and others, or even the little progress I’ve made on my projects for those reasons and others. This is unfortunate, but at least I recognize it. I am not satisfied with the “stupid causes on some website” that I’m behind, but neither do I think that this is actually enough action.

Anyway, I don’t have much else to say about this. I just hope that you will take what I have written to be sincere and will re-read my original post to see that I haven’t said almost anything that you’ve attributed to me, nor does it fall into the conspiracy theory categories. Also, I hope that whatever is troubling you right now will pass soon and everything will return to normal.

So tell me once again, that Kareem is being focused on as an excuse to bomb things. Really, because that’s not generalizing the entire Western press at all. Michelle Malkin writes a stupid article on her racist blog and here is everyone shouting “omg they only pay attention because of what Kareem said.”

Yeah, sure, I totally buy that!

There aren’t a lot of well organized people working on behalf of Palestinian prisoners?

And I don’t see why I can’t criticize certain folk in the West that only care about human rights in the middle east as an excuse to bomb people. Actually the other day I heard from a kid that seriously thought Israel was occupying Arab territory so women wouldn’t have to wear burkas anymore.

That’s totally plausible, I was just making a point that from the government’s perspective affiliation with an opposition group that has a big base of support is a hell of a lot more threatening to them than a random guy that says the same thing. I’m not as educated on the case as most people here though, so maybe there’s more to him that I don’t know.

Show me a campaign that did this much. I am not bragging, I am asking you to honestly find me a single campaign for an Arab or Muslim prisoner whose organizers did this much on a global basis yet didn’t receive the attention. I want to see the efforts because otherwise, your entire argument blows off into just a rant and not a valid observation that is based on a misunderstanding of both Kareem’s stance and his campaign.

What you should be criticizing is not the West. It’s not their damned fault to do this work. It’s your responsibility as much as it was ours to take action. The only difference is that we took that action – we put our lives and studies aside and we built this and I want to see who else was passionate and caring enough to do this. Seriously, show me just one campaign that did this much, and you may have a point. Otherwise this remains to be completely false and dare I say extremely lazy on your part to expect journalists abroad to give a shit about something no one gave a shit to work on in the first place. It’s not the West and it’s not a conspiracy and it’s not Kareem’s stance – it’s the responsibility of his organizers to turn their subjects into a purpose, not just a stupid cause on some website.

Secondly if you see something under-represented, why complain? You have the resources to do a lot about it, why expect others to do the work if they don’t really give a crap about the same causes? When people didn’t give a shit about Kareem we made them give a shit, this is what you should do, instead of saying “oh no, look at the West, they only report this problem but not the other.” Introduce the other problem. Who else is gonna do it if not you?

Actually, I was criticizing the behavior of people in the West when it comes to looking at human rights in the Arab world, and how they are more likely to latch on to Western-friendly causes (for example, anti-Islam, anti-Arab, pro-US type people)

This is such a massive generalization, Yaman.

Did you know that many of our media coverage wasn’t even in the USA? You say Western while you are feeding this view of West vs. Arabs, this is such a misleading generalization and I am very disappointed that you are resorting to this way of thinking.

The Free Kareem campaign succeeding is NOT a result of Western bias and propaganda and your evaluation above is entirely incorrect in many different ways which I don’t really have the time to list. But really, after your other campaigner friends lead worldwide rallies, make a billion phone calls to news agencies and get off their asses to do something for once, maybe THEN you can accuse the ever so evil “West” for ignoring other prisoners.

It’s not their job to do anything. It’s yours. It’s ours. And we did something; now it’s your turn to do it to the others you care about instead of expecting others to do it. And when they do it you better make sure you evaluate how we’re doing it and how the other campaigners are doing it, so you can see the differences between how we are succeeding.

One damned website saying “free this and that” without any other work is hardly doing ANYTHING, and that is what most campaigners have out there. So I reject these arguments, not until I see proof of some actual work.

Your criticism is invalid because you refuse to see the Free Kareem campaign as a worldwide effort and rather you think everything existing outside of the Arab world as “Western.” Yeah, Romania, yeah, Germany, yeah, France, yeah, all of the organizations and NGOs involved – they are all so very Western (i.e., “American” and anti-Arab) and are all feeding the very same mentality that Islam is bad and Arabs suck. What a humongous misconception. Many of the reporters residing in these areas, as well as many of the protestors were also Arab or Muslims and were still fighting for Kareem. So much for Westernization and the West being so “picky” on who it chooses to fight for.

FYI – Our efforts in Bahrain also made our local news. How Western was that, huh? Yeah, Kareem is such a Zionist tool. Yawn.

I was also thinking about the Darfur situation, where alot of Arabs seem very concerned about the fact that some Zionists are calling it arab on black violence, and their concern seems to stop at the fact that the conflict is mispercieved. And I mean yes, some people are framing it in terms of religion or racial conflict, but does that change that what’s happening is horrible? It just seems odd to me.
I’m well aware that there are arab and muslim groups that are willing to engage on Darfur issue here and there, but there’s also many that are willing to be silent, or just don’t want to think about it, which makes me really sad.

I’m sympathetic to Esra’a’s point of view in that a) they can’t do EVERYTHING and b) maybe we should be less worried about how things LOOK as opposed to how they ARE.

I worry a lot that these kind of criticisms leading to deciding that some human rights are western friendly (darfur, christians in the middle east, the veil, bahai’s) and others (palestinians, iraqis, afghanistan) are for arab activists and allies and you can only work at one, which ultimately only delegitmizes any side’s claims to being advocates of human rights if you apply them selectively.

On the other hand, as much as I think this is a worthwhile pursuit, I don’t know if it will be precedent setting. I’ve been called a Jew hater like five billion times for being concerned about Palestinian and Lebanese lives so I wouldn’t be holding my breath for any American paper to do a sympathetic story to MB political prisoners whom, as much as I oppose their views, I have to recognize their right to express them peacefully.

Check out the columnists. A lot of them are the same, and many times it is members of our coalition who are either the ones writing or the ones being interviewed for the reports.

Also we have added a new section -

Why Kareem, and not the others?

And did any of you actually READ Kareem’s posts? I don’t think most people did. He is barely pro-Western. He critizied his religion, is that so wrong? That hardly makes him pro-Western. Having actually met him, I know that he is in love with his country.

my local Amnesty group to write angry letters to the Egyptian minister for Justice, the Egyptian Ambassador etc.

Angry letters don’t do anything. Respectful, concerned letters do. Angry letters will just make things worse. People want to be reasoned with, not threatened or humiliated.

I don’t actually like Kareem – he strikes me as a bit of a tosser – but I will still be encouraging my local Amnesty group to write angry letters to the Egyptian minister for Justice, the Egyptian Ambassador etc.

However, I agree with the original poster – this is not just about one guy, who is getting attention because of his pro-Western views. (This is not to criticise Esra’a and the Freekareem.org people’s efforts – it’s about us, not you.) We in the West should speak out more about oppression generally. It’s just that it’s a lot easier to get non-political people to agitate for a living human being with an identifiable face, than it is to get people to agitate for abstract concepts like “freedom”.

I’m taking some sample letters for the Soliman into the Amnesty group meeting today, but I’d really like to expand the letter writing to gently and politely advocate for greater freedom of expression. I’m just not entirely sure how.