It’s arrogance
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” once upon a time, David Ben Gurion said those words; apparently, he had a much more patent vision than the current Israeli leaders have today.
An average Arab will never comprehend neither justify anything Israel does, just the same as an average Israeli will never understand what Arabs do, simply because arrogance motivates both sides’ actions. This is why if the current situation lasts another million years, nothing will change, Arabs will never accept the existence of Israel, and Israel will stay as offensive as it is now.
When the Israelis come to any negotiations they don’t come with Ben Gurion’s words, they come with arrogance instead, and when Arabs come, they come with one thought in their heads; “we have the right, no matter what we do.” The Israelis say they want peace, but they’re not willing to pay what it takes for a peace with the Arabs, Arabs on the other hand tend to dream and swim in fantasies a lot, and they cannot comprehend the idea behind the word “status quo”. Therefore, this kind of negotiations will never work out, and by work I mean work for ever!
As an Arab, I see a chance today; I see a possibility for a way out, and I know that this time it might work out just fine, but also as an Arab, I think it’s Israel now that has the answer; the conflict today is more clear than ever, even for an outsider who doesn’t have the slightest idea about the conflict, it’s clear that the coming peace negotiations are ultra crucial, and it’s clear that there’s a possibility this time, only if Israel give up on their arrogance for once. Hamas, the alleged main obstacle to peace achievement, made a lot of gestures but the Israelis weren’t listening, it’s not a joke when Mishal say that Hamas will consider recognizing Israel if a Palestinian independent state is founded, and when Hamas offers a major truce agreement with Israel, Israel must understand that this is an opportunity and ridiculing it is not the wise thing to do only because this tiny militia refuses to call Israel a legitimate state like everyone else does!
The Israeli leaders must step out of their arrogance-led mentalities, today there’s an opportunity, and take it from an Arab, if a Palestinian independent state is founded on the lands of 1967, A LOT of things will change, but if the wall, the settlements, the checkpoints, and the humiliation are all too valuable to Israel than a real sustainable peace as apparent from Livni’s words, then I think there’s no opportunity at all.
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It,s not too late for israeli to admit they are worng,dont let pride make things worse,it is time for israeli to take it seriously.
good post omar.
Great post, Omar. I completely agree with you.
I’m skeptical of any approach to peace that puts the onus on all one side. Whether it be Israel or not. Call the Israelis arrogant if you want — I disagree with that characterization. Perhaps the Palestinians refusal to deal with facts on the ground — you can’t “liberate” all of Palestine and take Haifa and Tel-Aviv, too, it’s just ain’t happening — call it their “Lack of pragmatism” is equally damaging to the process, and dare I say it, also arrogant?
Both sides need to do some work, folks. It’d be really easy if it was all on Israel, but it isn’t.
I think Omar knows very well that both sides need to do some work for anything to be possible. But one side always needs to take the first step, and Palestine isn’t nearly as stable enough in order to do that. Israel, with its much strength and power, should swallow its pride for once and realize that it is also mistaken on many parts. Denial is not a leadership quality. Nor is the refusal to do whatever it takes to move forward, sometimes I look at Israeli leaders and all I see is people looking for excuses and justifications. I won’t deny that your current PM is by far one of the most arrogant - harsh term but certainly the most fitting.
Agreed on the fact that both sides have made mistakes. I guess I find it interesting that you see Israel coming from a position of arrogance, when it seems that — rightly or wrongly — Israel is actually coming from a position of being embattled, embittered and under seige — particularly since the country has faced attacks from its founding, even before 1967, when the West Bank and Gaza belonged to Jordan and Egypt. Many find it hard to believe that giving back what they ended up with 1967 — during a war against multiple Arab nations — will fix everything.
Despite the army, despite the weapons, despite the organized state, Israel has never had a moment of feeling like its existence is assured by anything other than the will of its own people. The rhetoric coming from the new unity Palestinian government isn’t doing anything to assuage those feelings. We know what “hudna” means, and it ain’t a lasting peace/acceptance. So Olmert may be arrogant, but so are the Palestinian leaders who deny their people statehood by clinging to precepts they KNOW aren’t possible.
That being said, I’d love to see Israel take the first step (you’re right, Esra’a — Israel is more stable, so I get your point, whether or not I see this more in shades of grey) and would be the first to shout out what I think that should be, if only I knew what would be safe for her people. Of course, if I knew that, I would be a very wise, very famous, very rich woman!
Omar said it best…we Jews just cannot understand the way the Arabs see this and they fully miss where most of us are coming from.
I agree with some of Omar’s statements and disagree with many. I think Liora hits it…Omar says arrogance…I think both sides approach the issue seeing themselves as the VICTIM…
Israel is not cocky “we can kill you all”…it is more like “we know you have the potential and sometimes the desire to kill all of us, therefore we have to fight like crazy”.
The bottom line…and Esra’a and Omar will disagree…but the bottom line for most Israelis is:WE DON’T TRUST YOU. I myself believe that no matter what is given back…and Gaza is a perfect example…the response will be…well you still have too many soldiers and geez we wanted this, that or there will be the Rejectionists that won’t accept anything and will try to poison any agreement. like Islamic Jihad…and then play victim when there is a response.
There is no end in sight and these peace talks will also fail…very unfortunate…I would like to ride a bus and not worry about getting vaporzied and I would like for Palestinians to be able to live happily and peacefully…Own state? Sure…But ain’t gonna happen.
well, I have to say that i agree with all of you. put if we kept on discussing that (which is good) we will never do anything on the ground, since my berth date I have been hearing stories of sufferings …. the main reason why Im hear is to try to bridge the gap between the 2 parties….. I think leaders should make some brave actions …IF they want an ending to it…….
I still don’t buy that excuse.
It seems as if pride is everything when it comes to this. I’ve yet to see any Arab or Israeli leader put their NATIONS before their broken promises, arrogance and pride.
I think I made it very clear that I put the blame on both sides, nevertheless, with the upcoming peace negotiations in specific, I see that Israel has the answer now, the way Israel acted (and had been acting) by rejecting and blocking any route to reach to the unity government is an act coming from arrogance.
The Israelis are blindly rejecting anything coming from Hamas, all under lame excuses and one is WE DON’T TRUST YOU! As if Hamas or any Palestinian trusts you! Mish’al’s last statements were about to get him hanged in Gaza, Hamas showed remarkable pragmatism, but what did the Israeli leaders do? Well, other than expanding settlements, continuing the wall, humiliating as much Palestinians as possible at every checkpoint, and putting them under siege and starvation, they simply overlooked and rejected every gesture made by the Palestinians or the Arab league under lame excuses (or even none!)
Excuse me Liora, but I don’t think you know what a ‘hudna’ means until you try it. The new government says that it will abide by the former agreements signed by the PLO, Hamas leaders might be fanatics, but they’re much more trustworthy than the Israeli leaders. If Israel accepted the truce Hamas offered, it’s 100% guaranteed that the Israelis would’ve had peace for the agreed period unless they broke the truce themselves. You must understand how sacred a truce is in the Islamic canon Hamas is adopting to get what I’m talking about.
Gaza is no example at all, withdrawing from Gaza over a night without the least cooperation with the Palestinians, then turning the strip into a big prison (call it self-imposed or whatever) and starving those inside, is nothing similar to giving back the West Bank in a planned procedure to find a sustainable Palestinian independent state that is practically capable of making peace with Israel. The issue is as Esra’a said; “Israel should swallow its pride for once” and deal with Hamas if they want peace, because only the strong is capable of making peace, and the strong in Palestine this time is Hamas. Other expected rejectionists such as the Islamic Jihad can be treated the same way Israeli rejectionists are being treated!
I may have sounded a bit too optimistic, but other than hope, what exactly do we have?
Bashar-
I do agree with you…I completely disagree with Omar and Esra’a.
The arrogance thing is inaccurate….it may make them feel better but it does not get a the heart of the problem. It is this thinking that will prevent progress.
Esra’a says “we don’t trust YOU”…OK…I can accept that…but if the Arabs miss how deep the distrust Israelis have, then they will likely not take the steps necessary for a workable peace to happen.
The issue is primarily one of trust. There are far too many Palestinians who either engage in violence and rejectionism…or support. The schools and society still teaching hatred.
I have a Muslim guy in my house right now as I write who is staying with me for a week. He told me about his training in college and religious school in Egypt and his upbrining in Sudan…filled with hate. There is far too much of this.
Bashar…you and I could talk sense with each other…though it would take a good deal of time…Esra’a the same…probably Omar.
But the average Israeli still thinks that each time something is given…it won’t be enough and there will always be an excuse for another attack.
owie,
I kinda agree with you said, in order to bridge the gap, actions must be taken so that we can build the trust other than that … it will go to the garbage of history …. result is what matters .. the rest is just trying or trying too hard without any results …
I have been hearing alot of stories about the Israelis which has alot of truth .. but THEN WHAT … shall we fight until everybody dies …. sorry … Im not gonna do that …
P.S: i apologize for any written mistakes in my previous post.
You have your paranoid media outlets to thank for that.
Think what you like. If the Israeli sources I read are correct then there is NO other way to describe your leaders.
Omar, you made my point about the hudna when you said:
So, for 10 years, say, there will be no violence, and Hamas will respect that. Fantastic! But what is left unspoken is what happens after the 10 years (or however long the hudna is for…) sometimes I really think these twists of phrase are designed to treat us like we’re stupid. I don’t dispute that Hamas would not agree and abide to the terms of the hudna — you are right, I can’t say that because it hasn’t really been tried. My point is that hudna basically amounts to a cease-fire, but is not an agreement to live side by side. That was my point. Not that I thought that Hamas wouldn’t abide by it. That to me, saying, we won’t attack you for a period of XX is like saying, “but we will as soon as that period is over.”
Esra’a:
I’m talking about the overall psyche of Israelis (and I think Howie was as well) We really don’t come from a position of arrogance, whether you understand it or not. In the book “From Beirut to Jerusalem” Thomas Friedman observes about the Israelis and their government in a section of the book dedicated to talking about exactly this topic — and I think it’s still true, that the Israelis “still see themselves as a people who react to history, rather than shape it”
Oh, and by the way, leaders is general, everywhere around the world are arrogant. Frankly, it is my belief that you have to have some sort of personality defect to think you are qualified for, and want to serve as, a country’s leader. Just for the record… So yeah, Olmert is arrogant… its almost one of the job requirements (and believe me, I am no Olmert fan…)
I don’t think anyone is implying that Israelis in general are arrogant. Where did you get that idea? I was referring to the leaders specifically.
But not all world leaders are in a situation similar to this. Arrogance from Israel’s part is more serious considering their military strength and dominance, because it changes the whole decision making process, and as Omar and I said before when you are in a position to be taking the step you need to be strong enough not to let your pride and arrogance get in the way of ensuring a stable future for all people, not just Israelis alone.
Liora-
“Oh, and by the way, leaders is general, everywhere around the world are arrogant. Frankly, it is my belief that you have to have some sort of personality defect to think you are qualified for, and want to serve as, a country’s leader.”
Man do I agree with that and have LONG believed it.
Bashar-if there were more voices like yours…peace would be achieved in a couple of years. Israelis, as a whole, do not want to fight, they feel cornered with no other choice. In spite of Esra’a’s erroneous thinking, it is NOT about arrogance…just isn’t…it is about DISTRUST…and I think this has been a huge weakness from the Arab side…like many here…they just won’t accept that basic concept.
Hell, I even remember many many years back, Arafat saying, and I paraphrase…”how can we make any progress when these Israelis are so obsessed with security”. Yes…even Arafat knew it…and did nothing to build trust.
I have said it here over and over…the overall Palestinian approach has been premised on violent resistence…after tens of decades of it bringing nothing but disaster to all involved…maybe a different approach is indicated?
Bashar-
There is something about you I just instinctually like…Esra’a you are lucky Bashar is a dude or our wedding would be off!
I’d like to ask a question - is it sort of typical for Israeli supporters to deny that they are at all in charge for at least SOME of the disaster that they love to complain about so much?
Esra’a — not at all. I am not saying that Israel is without fault. So yes, Israel is responsible for at least SOME of the disaster. Just not all of it. Funny how it seems that each side is hearing thethe other side say that they are totally responsible, when in reality I don’t think any of us are saying that… Clearly, this is a super-charged issue.
For years, everytime I hear about any kind of expansion in a West Bank settlement, I have been wildly disappointed in Israel. BOTH sides are guilty of saying one thing and doing another. And BOTH sides, as Howie said earlier, approach the situation from a victim mentality, which ain’t helping anyone. But, I won’t argue against the Israeli government’s obsession with security since it is literally my family’s security they’re talking about.
And I have to agree with Howie’s comment about trying a different approach. Even Abbas says that suicide bombings etc “hurt the Palestinian cause.” Sure, I’d like it if he said that killing Israelis is wrong, but I’m a realist, so I won’t wait for that statement. You’d think, however, the factions would at least try something else, since Israeli response to terrorism (checkpoints, the fence, house demolitions, etc.) always makes things worse for the Palestinian people.
When it comes to taking a “different approach” this should apply to Israel as well. An aggressive approach comes with aggressive reactions, that’s a well known fact, so it surprises me that Israel finds it shocking how Palestinians are reacting. Of course they’d be pissed, and under these circumstances of course they’d react with violence. Are they expected to undergo the humiliation for the rest of their lives?
I lost hope when it comes to Palestinian leaders, they are power hungry and corrupt in every form, anyone from Hamas officials to Abbas, who love to talk but rarely ever take action. What’s left is the youth - I think if Israelis were more vocal about their feelings and experiences, and if moderate Palestinians are just as vocal, they might influence other young people to react and think the same way and that gives us much hope for the future. A lot of things can be created if the good people act, and that they act quickly and responsibly to add pressure for any change to take place.
I read Leah’s posts here and I see most of my hopes in her arguments and in the events she attends and describes. She is one of the first Israeli friends I made and that gave me a VERY good impression of Israelis. I think without people like her… we won’t be inspired enough to act upon our dreams and we won’t feel the need to encourage our Palestinian brothers and sisters to react the same way and maintain their hope and support. But it’s people like her who have the power to create a strong force… really, all I say is that I am thankful for people like that. They achieve so much but don’t realize it! I feel like it’s my duty to make other Arabs and Muslims read what she has to say and I hope you are proud that she represents Israelis so well. Unfortunately many Arabs, even in the blogosphere, are only exposed to the Israeli nationalists who deny everything and insist that it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, and refer to them as “roaches” and “insects.” People like you guys need to be more vocal - your voices are barely heard in the Arab world and if they are echoed, there is much hope. So keep up the good work and stay active.
Esra’a — despite our differences, we can agree on many things. I believe that BOTH sides need to take a different approach. (When I say that Palestinian actions bring a harsh Israeli response, I don’t mean that I agree with all of them. I don’t. Some I can understand, and some I can’t. House demolitions, for example, are something I cannot and will not get behind… I just mean that Palestinians, like Israelis, should try something new… And I am disheartened to read that the Israeli government is rejecting any talks with the new Palestinian government out-of-hand, regardless of my feelings about Hamas. It just makes me feel hopeless, although I don’t necessarily know what I want them to do…)
And I am proud of Leah as a respresentative of the Israeli side. As I am also proud of Howie and all other productive Israelis or Israel supporters who post here. Anyone on any side who is willing to talk, willing to hear the other side and passionate enough to want to make a difference, even through talking here in the blogosphere is a credit to their position and their people. That goes for you — Esra’a, Bashar, Omar — who brought us this discussion-provoking post — and anyone else who is open to cross-communications. Right now, its the best thing we’ve got, as you so eloquently discuss above…
Fatima-
“I lost hope when it comes to Palestinian leaders, they are power hungry and corrupt in every form, anyone from Hamas officials to Abbas, who love to talk but rarely ever take action. What’s left is the youth - I think if Israelis were more vocal about their feelings and experiences, and if moderate Palestinians are just as vocal, they might influence other young people to react and think the same way and that gives us much hope for the future. A lot of things can be created if the good people act, and that they act quickly and responsibly to add pressure for any change to take place.”
Geez…we agree on something?
This has been about as enlightening a talk as I have had on this subject, more fair, calm and objective.
Me…I would welcome any ideas that would break the deadlock of suffering…In terms of youth…well too often youth only becomes a recreation of their parents…few have the self-analytical ability to break away from that vise grip (sometimes being like your parents is a good thing…don’t get me wrong on that).
I still stick with one perspective though…not an “excuse” Fatima…it is called an OPINION or belief (fact is actually the truth) and that is “the” primary barrier is a lack of trust…We have to see some change in word and deed that indicates clearly that after a 10 year “hunda” or ten months…it would not be back to business as usual, with, of course, Israel being blamed for “breaking the truce”.
You guys think the chicken came first…we think it was the egg…hopefully we can keep the incubator going…regardless of who started it.
Why do you call me Fatima? That’s my mother’s name. If you wanna flirt call me “babe” or something! Haha.
The problem is that we are so stuck on the past - who did what first and who had the right to react? And that makes us justify murder. When a suicide bomb kills innocent civilians - many Arabs think “well, it was a reaction to Israeli terrorism!”
And when Israeli soldiers kill innocent civilians, many Israelis and Americans think “well, it was a reaction to suicide bombing!”
And so it goes!
Oh well. Maybe there’s only one solution…. INTERMARRIAGES. That way all the kids will be balanced in their thoughts. “But mommy said daddy is okay even though they call him a murderer in the media! And daddy says mommy is cute even though the Israeli media refers to her identity as a bunch of bitter terrorists! So I support both sides.”
Seriously guys. We should turn this into a dating site and there goes a great solution.
Esra’a…
True story…
I had to do an intership with this guy as a supervisor who turned out to be absolutely insane…God help his clients. This was long ago…
Anyhow..even at a naive 20 years old…I had him pegged and it was not rocket science…he stood up in front on a large assembly of therapists etc and announced in all seriousness
“what we need is more fucking”…
On a more serious note…if not dating…we need a whole lot more hanging out with each other. There are SO many misconceptions and wrongful assumptions.
Here is the cliche…we are people…much of what we are is due fully to the accident of birth…Most of us here feel injured and done wrong, but MOST of us here want something better…and I would bet my very last dollar…yes I would…that most of us here care about issues that go far beyond Arabs and Israelis, Muslims and Jews or Christians…but we care about elevating the human race.
So yes…life is conflict…but some will strive for truth…which is painful…and some will yell slogans or just watch TV.
And yes Fatima…I do adore you…and please…do call me some orginal Jewish name…ah how about…eh…oh “Cohen”!!
I have decided not to work at the moment because this is an interesting post and has alot of interesting comments … so what the hell .. work can wait
…..
–
I would like what is happening here, here is my observations:
It is a healthy discussion yet sometimes its the same old BLAME GAME…. if we kept on discussing or talking about it …. then it is good …. but it would be even better if we try to spread the word of peace …. I know it is sometimes hard esp. if somebody sees a friend or a relative being killed or injured …. but there is no other way out! … its peace or we are all going to suffer.
—-
I had alot of discussions with both Palestinians (including ppl from Hamas) and Israelis (including extremists) …. and trust me …. some of them (Isrls & Pals) wanted to kill me
… I was often called a coward, spy, double agent ..u name it …. but the most important thing is that I stand for what I believe in 
and what i believe in is that Israel occupies the land (1967) and should give it back, Palestinians should stop the violence once and for all after ….
(that is on a high level and don’t want to get into details and don’t want the egg-chicken story going , because I can never stop and its gonna be useless )
—-
Howie
Thanks for the nice comment :), u better not call the wedding off because I want to marry someone at the same wedding … . u will just have to find me THE ONE
Can’t we just stick to those words?