Saudis to Israel: Accept Our Terms
March 28th, 2007Instead of opening its doors to dialogue between the two states and its nations, Saudi chose to seal the door shut and further the gap between Arabs and Israelis.
As reported by the New York Sun -
UNITED NATIONS— As Secretary of State Rice called on Arab countries to reassure Israel about its future, Saudi Arabia made clear that there would be no diplomatic openings toward the Jewish state and warned of the likelihood of war if Israel does not fully accept Arab terms.
Uh, instead of waiting for Israel to accept our terms, how about we accept our history, where we drove millions of Arab Jews out of our own lands, or worse, killed them?
“The Arab states should begin reaching out to Israel — to reassure Israel that its place in the region will be more, not less secure, by an end to the occupation and the establishment of a Palestinian state,” Ms. Rice said.
Hush up, Condi. This is between Israel and the Arabs.
On the eve of a Riyadh summit of the Arab League, Ms. Rice added that Arab leaders need “to show Israel that they accept its place in the Middle East, and to demonstrate that the peace they seek is greater than just the absence of war.”
The Arab League? You may as well address your opinions and concerns to a wall. The Arab League is an embarrassment. A failure. We should rename it to “Hypocrites Unite.”
The Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, in an interview with the Daily Telegraph yesterday, dismissed any diplomatic overtures towards Israel.
But why?! This could be a big mistake.
“The mere fact that the Saudis want to get involved is excellent,” the former Israeli ambassador in Washington, Daniel Ayalon, told the Sun yesterday. Riyadh’s concern about Iran, he added, has driven its latest diplomatic drive. “There were good signals coming from Riyadh,” he said, “but then they dried out.”
Oh I get it! Israel’s smooching up to Saudi because it wants its support in an anti-Iranian initiative? Haha, I knew it wanted something as soon as I read this:
Israeli officials have warmed up to Saudi Arabia recently, stressing “positive elements”
Positive elements, like what, blowing the hell out of Iran?
Alright, so there are pros and cons in a Saudi-Israeli plan. What do you think, is Saudi right for declining the offers? I myself see many advantages but just as many disadvantages, so I am a fence-sitter for now. On one hand, strict diplomatic ties could soon lead to a better interaction between the two nations, and a large and much-needed Arab-Israeli dialogue could arise. But, if we do open that door, we are also going to have to involve Israel heavily in our politics, and that might mean that whoever Israel sides with could threaten the other nations. Saudi and Israel uniting against Iran, for example, would be extremely threatening for Iran, who is already under much pressure from its Arab neighbors (and mostly for good reason.)
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“Uh, instead of waiting for Israel to accept our terms, how about we accept our history, where we drove millions of Arab Jews out of our own lands, or worse, killed them?”
I still find it bizarre that people treat the Jewish refugee issue as if it delegitimizes the Palestinian refugee problem. Especially since you posted this article here on MEFaith. There’s a very obvious reason why the Israeli state doesn’t take up this issue and demand that Jews have the right to return to their homes: because it doesn’t want them to leave! Of course, those Arab Jews who were forcibly expelled and dispossessed (like from Iraq and a handful of other countries) should be compensated or allowed to return to their original countries. But, according to some credible historians like Salim Tamari, it is not the case that Arab Jews were expelled from all Arab countries. In many cases, Israel encouraged them to come, and encouraged their governments to compel them to come to Israel. In other cases, like Morocco, there are still significant Jewish populations. A lot of the immigration to Israel was an affirmative choice, not one out of compulsion. Regardless of the exact numbers (there were definitely Jews expelled from some Arab countries, but not from all of them, or probably even most of them), this was NOT a population transfer coordinated by two governments, like between Turkey and Greece after WWI (and even in that case it was not a legitimate or acceptable transfer!). Those issues are ones that should be dealt with with the individual states who expelled their Jewish citizens, like Iraq. It is not true that “the Arabs” expelled all the Jews, because there was no Arab state, and there was no central plan to expel them. And when it comes down to it the Palestinians themselves were not involved in the expulsion schemes that did occur and are not responsible for it. The Palestinian refugee problem is not “cancelled out” by the Jewish refugees–that is what some people try to say, but it’s not true. The biggest difference between these issues, too, is that the Jewish refugees do not want to go back to where they came from. They are in an economically successful position, for the most part, and have absolutely no incentive to go to a country where there is tyranny and economic stagnation. On the other hand, the Palestinians have not been welcomed into any country they have gone to as equal citizens. Also, you said millions of Jews, but the highest number I have ever read has been 600,000, and that is by people who call all Jewish immigrants to Israel refugees, even those that were just immigrants.
“Hush up, Condi. This is between Israel and the Arabs.”
At a time when the United States is Israel’s biggest financial and military supporter, and the US just announced it’s giving $59 million more to Fatah thugs to fund another civil war in the Middle East, I think it’s hardly realistic to pretend that by shutting up, America suddenly leaves the scene. It’s not just words, it’s money and arms that America has been letting flow into both Israel and Palestine.
“Oh I get it! Israel’s smooching up to Saudi because it wants its support in an anti-Iranian initiative?”
I think you understood this in only one way. Saudi has also been smooching up to Israel. I think the anti-Shia/anti-Iran sentiment in Saudi is much stronger than it is in Israel, especially since it also has religious undertones there. Saudi does not want Shia’s to be strong in the Middle East.
I should add, I don’t know what more reassurance Israel needs after having the most powerful military in the region, not to mention the only country with nuclear weapons.
Yaman, are you denying or justifying the Jewish exodus from Arab lands and from Iran?
Millions of Jews were threatened. Hundreds of thousands of them faced executions. And you’re telling me this overshadows what’s going on in Palestine? History is history. You don’t re-write it nor do you deny it because of the current status of Palestinians, yes what’s happening in Palestine is unbelievably wrong, but recognizing the history of Jews in the region doesn’t mean that people are going to “accept it.” It means you need to be fair to both people – by forgetting Jewish history in the region, you will only be adding on to the bigger problem. Arab Jews are people with rights too, you know. They are our Arab brethren, and we put them through shit for many decades, and despite what we made them suffer through, how many Arabs are actually aware that any of this went on? Not many, and it is barely even mentioned in our history books. Why? We choose to leave it out. The truth is bitter and apparently, we can’t handle it.
Look beyond Israel. This existed before Jews got their own state. So no, it wasn’t clever advertising, “ohhh Jews, come to Israel!” this was for the most part, a last resort. Before that, they lacked basic rights, and were threatened and abused as the “unsafe minority” which Arab and Iranian leaders humiliated. This is why I support Zionism (not modern Zionism, but the traditional definition, which is that Jews do in fact deserve their own state) and they certainly do deserve it, considering what we put them through.
Israel was a solution to a very, VERY dark history. No wonder it encouraged them to come. If Muslims were an abused minority throughout the region hell, I’d want my own state too and I’d leave my life behind in order to start a new one where my rights are actually recognized and where I’m guaranteed safety. They needed that escape. Many Arab states still target them, as does Iran. Do you want to live your life by risking it for being who you are? Of course not. You would leave to a place that actually accepts you rather than taking the humiliation.
I was actually being sarcastic by that remark.
How did I even imply that? When I say Israel, you immediately think “omg, the Palestinians!” I’m talking about Israel as a solution for Jews without a state. What they are doing to Palestinians is wrong, yes, we criticize their policies all the time, acknowledging Israel’s need to exist doesn’t make it any worse. It makes it better. Israel is here to stay whether we like it or not, we need to adjust to that. Israel is a reaction to what happened in the past. That’s what the principles of Zionism were based upon, not to wipe out Palestinians but rather to have a Jewish state for the Jewish people who are never safe as a “minority.”
Seriously, you read into my post the wrong way and assumed a lot of things that I didn’t even say, the same way you read into Drima’s post about Zionism. I think you get over-defensive with this issue and it’s not right to assume that I am being pro-Jew or pro-Israel and am being inconsiderate towards the Palestinians just because I choose to acknowledge the Jews’ dark history in our region – I did not say history cancels out the present. And most people with my view do NOT think that way either, so I don’t know why you say “most people….” Like who? Everyone I’ve discussed this with agrees that we put them through crap and are denying it because what, are we too proud now? Because it takes away from our pro-Palestinianess?
I know that the facts throughout Jewish history in Arab lands exist, because I’ve had family who’ve suffered through it. It was much more graver than you think. Hundreds of thousands of people fled for a reason, and it wasn’t for the sunny beaches of Israel. These are people in love with their own countries but are unable to live in it because they would be risking their lives doing so – do you call that healthy? Furthermore, do you know that many of the Arab-Israelis lack rights in Israel as well, and that a lot of them side with the Palestinians and consider what’s happening incredibly wrong? No one’s forgetting Palestine by remember the history of Jews in the Arab world. I’m not talking about Israelis alone, most of whom are immigrants from non-Arab nations, I’m talking about the Arab Jews that many forgot and that we ignore, and that our states continue to delete from our history textbooks. I remember them. And I think the Jews of our past deserve much more than what we give them, which is nothing but contempt and constant denial.
We caused the Jewish exodus. That post on MEFaith was absolutely right and to the point. We caused it, and now, we are shamelessly denying it, and it makes me sick. They left because they had to.
Collectively, altogether, definitely over one million. The ones killed do count, I’m not talking about the ones who just fled after 1948.
They are indeed forgotten millions. People whose history we just refuse to acknowledge.
And you’re telling me they don’t want to go back? You think they planned this like a freakin’ vacation? Talk to Iranian Jews, please do! You will hear their stories about how they had to leave everything, from their posessions to their loved ones and best friends behind, just to escape. And some have not seen Iran since 1978, and it makes them cry each time they talk about it. They want to go back. But no one wants to live in their country if they are humilated and silenced, when they could live in a country that at least recognizes their rights. But the ones who fled dream about their homelands.
You are in dire need with communication with Arab, Kurdish and Iranian Jews if you believe any of what you said, and if you deny its significance like that and generalize on how they feel. You don’t know how they feel until you’ve met them and seen what they had to go through. It’s an awful history.
“Yaman, are you denying or justifying the Jewish exodus from Arab lands and from Iran?”
Neither. I said it did not happen in the way you framed it (Arab Jews were only expelled from a handful of Arab countries, not across the board). Yes, Jews were a persecuted minority in most of these places, along with Christians and Shia Muslims. I am not denying that. I do not buy the romantic and inaccurate Islamist propaganda that says that “Jews and Christians loved living under Muslim hegemony because they were treated justly and fairly.” Obviously that is not true. Jews were a persecuted minority, absolutely. I am not asking people to forget about it or to ignore it. It should be recognized, and those who were forcibly kicked out of their homes should be compensated or allowed to return. What I was adding is that this is also a topic that is widely distorted by Israeli propagandists into a Jewish refugee problem that is not seriously meant to recompensate or allow them to return (because Israel, as a state who must have a Jewish majority demographic, does not want that to happen at all), but to de-legitimize the Palestinian refugee problem. They do not say “there is a Jewish refugee problem” because they want both Palestinian and Jewish refugees to return to their homes and be compensated. They say “there is a Jewish refugee problem, but we don’t want them to go back, so why can’t the Palestinians just learn to live in other countries and get over it already, it’s fair and square, right?” And to this I would add that the Jewish refugees from Arab lands (and we’re talking about the refugees in the years after 1948) have by and large assimilated into Israel or wherever else they went and do not want to return–they are not living in refugee camps like the Palestinians.
“This existed before Jews got their own state.”
Yes, of course minorities were persecuted in Arab countries and under the Ottoman Empire before the establishment of Israel. But Zionism as an ideology did not develop under these circumstances–it developed in Ashkenazi circles of European Jews who were facing anti-Semitism in Europe, which was much worse in intensity and ideology than the racism they faced in the Middle East. It wasn’t a racial hatred in the Middle East, it was a social one. This definitely does not make it acceptable or more palatable, but it is clearly not the same, and it is very, very wrong to say that Zionism developed because of persecution of Jews in the Middle East. Even Zionist scholars of Zionism acknowledge this (see “A History of Zionism” by Walter Laqueur).
“…acknowledging Israel’s need to exist doesn’t make it any worse…”
When you speak about acknowledging Israel’s existence, everything is fine, but when you start speaking about “rights” and “needs” to exist, you begin to imply that every race and religion in the world deserves its own state. I do not believe in a world organized by race and religion, and this is a suggestion that introduces more divisions between people than I can bare. It would have been reasonable to suggest that the Jews deserved autonomy from Arab states, if in fact there was a Jewish majority population in the areas that became Israel. But you know as well as I do that this was not the case, and that even the UN Partition Plan split up the land so that Israel was only 55% Jewish and 45% Arab while the Arab state was 99% Arab and 1% Jewish. This is a very dubious division, and in American politics it’s akin to gerrymandering a district so that one party always wins. There is no logic in the land division between the two states. The foundation of Israel is not the same in nature to what the creation of an independent Kurdistan would be. Kurdistan exists as a contiguous territory with a Kurdish population–Israel was not a territory with a Jewish population. Its population came from all over the world, primarily from Europe. Those Arab Jews who were native to the land were not the ones who spearheaded the Zionist movement, nor did they have any appreciable power in Israeli politics for a long time (and to this day Mizrahi Jews complain of discrimination). If anything, Israel might be compared to Liberia, the failed project of white Americans to export black Americans to Africa after the Civil War.
“I think you get over-defensive with this issue and it’s not right to assume that I am being pro-Jew or pro-Israel and am being inconsiderate towards the Palestinians just because I choose to acknowledge the Jews’ dark history in our region – I did not say history cancels out the present.”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being “pro-Jew” or “pro-Israel” (I don’t really know what either of these terms means), and there is absolutely nothing wrong with acknoledging the dark history of Jews and other minorities in the Middle East–not to mention the current situation of minorities like the Copts in Egypt or the Kurds in Syria and Iraq! But you did not acknowledge that, you went one step further and claimed that millions of Arab Jews were driven out of their lands. Like I said, I challenge this number, and the idea that they were physically forced out–this only happened in a handful of countries, like Iraq. In other places it certainly might have been favorable for them to leave because they were not in a friendly environment, but this is not the same as a refugee from war or direct oppression.
“Everyone I’ve discussed this with agrees that we put them through crap and are denying it because what, are we too proud now? Because it takes away from our pro-Palestinianess?”
No, we should not confuse fighting anti-Semitism with being against oppression of Palestinians. Those issues are not intertwined, and in fact, as people who fight oppression in Palestine, we should actively fight oppression and persecution of Jews and all other minorities under our watch.
“And you’re telling me they don’t want to go back? You think they planned this like a freakin’ vacation? Talk to Iranian Jews, please do! You will hear their stories about how they had to leave everything, from their posessions to their loved ones and best friends behind, just to escape. And some have not seen Iran since 1978, and it makes them cry each time they talk about it. They want to go back. But no one wants to live in their country if they are humilated and silenced, when they could live in a country that at least recognizes their rights. But the ones who fled dream about their homelands.”
Of course, I did not think of Iran when you mentioned the Arab countries, because Iran is not an Arab country. And, to tell you the truth, I was specifically only thinking of the Jewish refugees following 1948. But the story of Iranian Jews (and the Jews from the entire region, if you ask me), is indeed a tragic one, and I remember reading an account in the Berkeley Jewish Journal by an Iranian Jew who always pretended to be Muslim because he feared oppression. There is a long way to go in Iran, where Jews are persecuted and the general atmosphere has become fearsome for them, and those who claim not to be racist are in denial of the racism that is in the air.
“You are in dire need with communication with Arab, Kurdish and Iranian Jews if you believe any of what you said”
I believe every word of what I’ve said, and I don’t think any of it denies the persecution that those people have faced and continue to face. I think I have been misunderstood, though.
Why would they want to go back at this point if they’ve been finally given the right to exist? I never implied that Zionism appeared from the Middle East! But the whole POINT was to include them. The founders defined it as a Jewish state, not a Jewish state for European Jews, because clearly, they were aware that this was indeed happening all over, and not just Europe. If they were just facing this in Europe they could have moved elsewhere, but the threat was that they wouldn’t be accepted as a minority. I do not agree with how Israel came to power and how much it is abusing its powers now (very much) but Israel was created under one theme and it’s Jews needed their own state, mainly for security reasons, considering their past.
As for this applying to all minorities in the world – I have already expressed myself many times about Zionism’s role in the Koran and thus why I as a Muslim support what’s been acknowledged as the “Kingdom of Jews.” It doesn’t apply to all minorities despite many minorities facing similar issues, especially the Kurds, firstly because I do not know enough about it and secondly because the Koran doesn’t make the decision any easier for me to make. I think if each minority creates its own state, especially within the Middle East, we’re in for a messy region – but I do and have always fought for the rights of those people in order to maintain their cultures and identities. In Morocco, there are minorities that are completely separate from the mainstream culture, including language and religious differences, but they do not ask for their own state, instead they create their own distinguished minority within a country, and that is what I agree with. It is the right approach IF their rights are recognized and IF they are allowed to practice them freely.
They were not physically forced out – and I never said that they were. To me, if someone doesn’t recognize your rights, yes, they are indirectly forcing you out unless you want to accept the humiliation and live in a country that not only doesn’t want you, but that wants to wipe out your presence and YES this was the implication hence the lack of rights. Jews had almost no rights – political, social, and religious, and if you lack all these basic rights then yes you are being forced out of your own country! Many of them want to return, why wouldn’t they, it’s their country after all, but to me, if a country abused me this much and another welcomed me with opened arms, it would be a ‘pride’ thing (and not just a financial thing) not to go back. I think anyone would feel this way. They have no reason to go back if they are going to be mistreated as a minority and even if it was perfectly legal to be there (like in Bahrain, for example) they wouldn’t want to because of the anti-Semiticism that has grown within our nations as well.
So I think if Arab states did begin considering these rights a lot of people would want to go back to their countries of origin, but the threat is always there, so most of them won’t actually do it.
Now the Kurdish Jews… well, I feel bad for them the most, because not only do they face these lack of rights as Jews but also as Kurds, so they are a minority in every sense of the word.
And a Kurdish Jewish homosexual… well, that’s just asking for trouble!
The paramount problem in the Middle East is Iran’s agressive behavour and the Saudis are scared witless about the substantial Shi’ite population in Saudi Arabia and Gulf causing problems(Bahrain 80% Shia).
The Saudi image amongst ordinary Americans in any event is rock bottom,so here the Saudis go again with nonsense peace plans leading nowhere… to appease Ahmadinejad and the rejectionists
If the Saudis were really genuine,King Abdullah would get on his private jet and fly to Jerusalem,like Sadat or Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan and address the Israeli People from the Knesset
“If the Saudis were really genuine,King Abdullah would get on his private jet and fly to Jerusalem,like Sadat or Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan and address the Israeli People from the Knesset”
Thanks Thomas Friedman for your brilliant ideas.
“The Saudi image amongst ordinary Americans in any event is rock bottom,so here the Saudis go again with nonsense peace plans leading nowhere… to appease Ahmadinejad and the rejectionists”
What do you think the American and Israeli image is like in the Middle East?
This is very untrue. There’s an incredibly small Shiite population in Saudi and no they will never be as much as Bahrain or Iraq. There’s no Sunni/Shiite conflict in Saudi nor will there ever be one anytime soon, the only problem there is domestic terrorism threatened by the Wahabi extremists. But problems arising from Shiites? Hardly. Iraq and Bahrain are an exception, it’s linked to history. They didn’t just come there and “grow” bigger.
If Saudi is going to unite with Israel ONLY to destroy Iran then it is in fact a horrible idea. The last thing we want right now is countries ganging up against Iran, a country that is horribly misrepresented and exaggerated in the media.
When you look at the issue from this light I would have to agree with Yaman on the matter.
Yaman-
First of all…long time no talk…haven’t seen you on Ammar in awhile.
This is just a fascinating discussion. What I particularly enjoy is the struggle to come up with truth and when it comes to things like history, politics or religion, truth tends to be enormously complex, elusive and full of grey.
In that vein…I don’t know Saudia’s motivation in all this, sinister, conspiratory? I would think it would be self-serving…which comes as no surprise as this is what most countries are up to, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Communist, theocractic or whatever…of course there is some type or more likely, TYPES of manuvering for various advantages or potential advantages.
For all my utter distrust of the Arab governments…with Saudia being near the top…I welcome any initiative to get folks at the table. There is NOTHING new in the “Saudi Plan”…just spins of every other plan I have heard…bottom line is can the fear, distrust and hate be diluted and genuine hope be encouraged…
Oh…and Saudia saying they won’t modify…this is the “souk”…when you know you are going to have to make a deal…you start in your strongest position and don’t start making concessions early on. This is the beginning of posturing..not the end.
In other news…
Israel Unlikely to Accept Arab Plan, Says Haniyeh
While Pakistani president blames others for “anger” in the Muslim region. Hahaha.
Thanks Esra’a
You are absolutely right – the Zionist movement may have originated in 19th century Europe, but Jews all over the world have maintained a unique historical and religious attachment to Israel for over 2,000 years. Zionism provided a solution to the nagging problem of Jewish persecution whether in Europe or in Arab lands – a homeland.
There did not have to be an Arab masterplan to expel them and not every Arab country did – but even in Morocco, where the king did try to protect them, life was made so uncomfortable for the Jews that they felt they had no choice but to leave (and all but 3,000 Jews out of an original population of 300,000 did).
Of course the Jewish refugees are now well settled in Israel and the last thing they want to to do is return to the tyrannies they came from. There was a rough exchange of refugees: That’s why both sides should drop any demand to return to their countries of birth and call it quits.
I believe this is what Palestinian refugees would want too, if they were not denied elementary rights in all Arab countries except Jordan. Integration has to be easier for them than it was for the Jews arriving in Israel: the Palestinians share a language and a culture with Arab countries. The only think lacking is the will among Arab leaders to treat them as humans and not political footballs. (It is shameful the way Libya has just announced it wants to deport its ‘Palestinians’ – how many of these, I wonder were in fact born in Libya?)
Israel has behaved in almost the opposite way – it has not wanted to make the Jewish refugees into a political issue. A complicating factor is that 300,000 Jewish refugees did not go to Israel, but are scattered all over the West, without effective leadership to speak for them. But all are entitled to justice and by ignoring the Jewish refugee issue, Israel is in danger of compromising their rights.
Integration into their new countries and financial compensation has to be the fairest solution for both sets of refugees.
“There was a rough exchange of refugees: That’s why both sides should drop any demand to return to their countries of birth and call it quits.”
Do you see, Esra’a? I think my point has been proven now.
What I don’t understand, bataween, is how you can so nonchalantly dismiss the claims that Palestinians have to their national identity and the land they abandoned. To ask them to integrate into new countries and just “call it quits” is as bad as those who suggest that the Jews in Israel should just “return to Europe.” How can that be an acceptable request?
“Israel has behaved in almost the opposite way – it has not wanted to make the Jewish refugees into a political issue.”
Supporting Jewish immigration to Israel has always been a political issue for Israel. It is the only way the state can survive with a Jewish demographic majority.
Yaman, the Palestinians were offered their state in 1947 under the UN partition plan! The Jews agreed. But the Palestinians rejected the partition plan because they wanted ALL the land. If they are so keen on their national identity why did they not declare a state in Gaza after Israel withdrew? Why did they not declare a state in the West Bank in the 19 yrs when it was under Jordanian occupation? Because they are only interested in denying Israel to the Jews.
Israel’s immigration policy is Israel’s business. It is the state of the Jews. It has every right to give priority to Jews. Greece gives priority to Greeks and Egypt to Egyptians.
Half the population of Israel is from Arab countries. My own family is from Iraq, but I would be dreaming if I thought Iraq would ever give me Iraqi citizenship. Get real.
Yes, it is Israel’s business if they do it IN Israel. Occupied territories on the other hand are NOT Israel.
If a stranger walks into my house and say, from now on this half of the house is mine and the other half is yours, I don’t think you’ll accept that.
If the Palestinians had declared independence like you said they should have, they would have to accept all the land occupied by Israel as belonging to them because declaring a nation involves defining the borders.
Iraqis kick out Jews, bla bla bla kick out Jews…
Lets go kick out Palestinians…
Jews were massacred in Europe by Germans and Austrians, not Palestinians.
Amazing logic.
Maybe Jews should have listened to Stalin’s idea of a Jewish state.
“Because they are only interested in denying Israel to the Jews.”
Yes. It has nothing to do with having land and homes they were forcibly removed from returned to them. Nothing at all. It has to do with a natural genocidal tendency to exterminate the Jewish people, which magically appeared in the 20th century despite a Jewish presence in the region which pre-dated that. Okay. I believe that.
“Israel’s immigration policy is Israel’s business.”
If Israel did not kick out 700,000 Palestinians once it declared itself, then its immigration policy would be its own business. But history began before 1948, believe it or not, and all of that does not magically disappear with the declaration of the state of Israel. Unless you suggest we begin to number our years Before Israel and After Israel?
“My own family is from Iraq, but I would be dreaming if I thought Iraq would ever give me Iraqi citizenship.”
As I mentioned earlier, there is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding that your family’s rights, as refugees, be recognized and treated. But you are not suggesting this at all. You are suggesting that these should “cancel out” and that you are “sacrificing” your rights (as if you are living in a refugee camp today, or under occupation) and that Palestinians should too. There is no logic to support that approach, and it is based on the assumption that a population exchange occurred between two countries which never occurred. Arabs were kicked out of Palestine, and Jews were kicked out of Iraq. Palestinians were not represented by the Iraqi government, and Jewish Iraqis were not represented by the Israeli government. I don’t understand how out of this situation, you get that everything is even.
I never claimed that, I already stated before that I do not agree with the manner in which Israel gained its state and the way in which it clearly abuses its powers, I merely support the fact that it exists, there’s a difference.
And to be clearer – it wasn’t me who said anything about cancelling each other out.
All I am saying is that we DO deny what we did to Jews in the past but only because of what’s happening in the present. And acknowledging the past doesn’t justify the present.
G. Says:
2007-03-29 at 12.58 am
Esra’a Says:
2007-03-29 at 2.37 am
Iran’s strategy is to destabilize Gulf monarchies with a significant Shia minority .Zaki Chehab explains in The New Statesman all about it:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200702120009
Btw on Abdullah’s Plan … here is a YNET talkback which is interesting:
edit
G. Says: 2007-03-29 at 12.58 am
Esra’a Says: 2007-03-29 at 2.37 am
“If Israel did not kick out 700,000 Palestinians once it declared itself, then its immigration policy would be its own business. But history began before 1948, believe it or not, and all of that does not magically disappear with the declaration of the state of Israel. Unless you suggest we begin to number our years Before Israel and After Israel?”
Yaman, this is not what happened. 700,000 Palestinians fled Israel as soon as five Arab armies declared war on Israel. The Arab states declared war on behalf of the Palestinians, so they are responsible for what happened subsequently. There would not have been a single Palestinian refugee otherwise. Before 1947, there was a massive influx of Arabs into Palestine, attracted by the buoyant new economy established by the Jews.
The idea of the ‘exchange of populations’ is not Israel’s idea. It was originally the brainchild of the Iraqi Prime Minister, Nuri Said. The expulsion of the Iraqi Jews was revenge for loss of the 1948 war ( the Iraqi Jews were made to contribute to the cost of the war) and was considered a suitable settling of accounts between Jews and Palestinians – and that was in 1951, before the expulsion of the Egyptian Jews, Syrian, Libyan and so on. In fact my parents’ Jewish school and homes in Baghdad were taken over by Palestinians.
The Jews of Iraq were rooted in the country for 25 centuries. We lost everything – 57 synagogues were abandoned, clubs, businesses, offices, holy places. Iraq was in many ways as Jewish as Palestine – the birthplace of Judaism, the site of prophets’ tombs. Are you suggesting that we return ? It’s just not on, four generations later. We have rebuilt our lives elsewhere. We won’t return and neither should Palestinians to Israel – the vast majority living today were not even born in Palestine.
Every conflict in the 20th century was settled by an exchange of populations – millions of Muslims fled India for Pakistan and Hindus fled Pakistan for India. There was a massive exchange of Greeks and Turks following the first world war. But only the Palestinians want to return.
“Yaman, this is not what happened. 700,000 Palestinians fled Israel as soon as five Arab armies declared war on Israel. The Arab states declared war on behalf of the Palestinians, so they are responsible for what happened subsequently. There would not have been a single Palestinian refugee otherwise. Before 1947, there was a massive influx of Arabs into Palestine, attracted by the buoyant new economy established by the Jews.”
Yes, that’s how it went down in la-la land. But in Palestine, thanks to Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Uri Avnery, and the like, we now can be certain that this was not the case.
“The idea of the ‘exchange of populations’ is not Israel’s idea.”
And yet, you support it wholeheartedly. How innocent you are.
“The Jews of Iraq were rooted in the country for 25 centuries. We lost everything – 57 synagogues were abandoned, clubs, businesses, offices, holy places. Iraq was in many ways as Jewish as Palestine – the birthplace of Judaism, the site of prophets’ tombs.”
Yes, and that was a tragic crime that cannot be forgiven.
“Are you suggesting that we return ?”
I am suggesting that if you want to return, you should be able to. If you don’t want to return, then you are free not to.
“We won’t return and neither should Palestinians to Israel…”
And this is reaffirming the one main point I’ve had throughout this discussion: that people only bring up the Jewish refugee issue disingenuously, as a way to delegitimize the Palestinian refugee issue. The Jewish refugees by and large do not want to ever return. Many of the Palestinian refugees, on the other hand, do want to return. Both people have the right to return–it’s a matter of whoever wants to, is able to. None of this illogical playground logic of “well we don’t want to so they shouldn’t want to either!!!”
“Every conflict in the 20th century was settled by an exchange of populations…”
And so finally the veil of humanism is shed, and we have the apologist for forced transfer of populations arise. I brought up the example of Turkey and Greece earlier–this transfer was not justified. No population transfer is ever justified without the absolute consent of every single individual who is forcibly relocated–that’s the point. Don’t you understand? The importance of each and every single one of those families’ rights to the homes they had is not challenged by any corrupt or oppressive rulers that decided to kick them out–Jewish and Arab alike. I understand that from a position of luxury, you really could care less about going back to Iraq. You are not living in a refugee camp. You have the luxury to choose not to return to your country of origin. Excuse me if the Palestinians living in squalor, and now drowning in their own shit in Gaza, are not as optimistic as you are. A lot of Palestinian refugees from 1948 are living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank–did you know that? Over half the population of Gaza is composed of refugees from 1948, and over a quarter in the West Bank are.
I only wonder, with a ruthless and anti-humanitarian stance as yours, what your “solution” will be to the conflict that will arise when the Arabs in Israel begin to outnumber the Jews in Israel because of discrepancies in birthrate. Will you be one of the Yisrael Beiteinu cheerleaders who advocates “transferring” them out of the country?
(I’m still amazed by the propensity of some people to put the importance of this thing that, really, does not exist (the “state”), on a level higher than the importance of the welfare and human rights of actual, living, breathing, human beings. When it comes down to the basics, this worship-the-state phenomenon is remarkably close to fascism.)
Interesting that WHILE you mention all that – Saudi is not listed anywhere, which is what you specifically mentioned in the first place. Meaning you read about the Arab world and assume that all of us are suffering from the same issues, also not true.
Bahrain is the only country in the Gulf where this is happening so far and it is not happening on a small scale- it’s happening on a major scale if you know anything about Bahrain and its current status (Sunni rule, Shiite majority,) something no other country in the Gulf faces. We all await an uprising of some sort sometime between now and the next 4 years, but when it happens, it won’t be a civil war in the Gulf. It will be a civil dispute within Bahrain, specifically.
And if something happens it won’t be a religious battle of any sort – it would be a battle for political dominance.
Still doesn’t prove any of what you said right about Saudi Arabia. The Arab world is NOT all the same and just because Bahrain faces a particular issue, it does not mean that the rest of the Gulf faces it as well. We have different issues.
And King Abdullah warns of any peep. Just a few months ago he warned of a huge Arab-Israeli war, I wonder where that is now? He just loves fear mongering so that he can say “woohoo! I told you so!” and I’ve never taken any of his analysis seriously.
Sorry Yaman but it is I who is advocating the humanitarian solution and you who is politicising it.
First of all, the forced exchange of populations already took place. I am not advocating one. What I am saying is that it cannot be undone.
Secondly, who said any descendant of a refugee has an automatic right to return to a place his great-grandfather left four generations ago? It’s absurd.
Thirdly, you say that most Palestinians want to return to Israel because their life is bound to be better there than in the sewer in Gaza. Who says? The villages they came from no longer exist. Jews may be living in their homes. Are you going to kick these Jews out and cause another exodus? The only reason why you want the Palestinians to return is to swamp this already overcrowded little strip of land that is Israel (and what is not overcrowded is uninhabitable Negev desert) is so that Israel becomes a majority-Arab state.
Who left the Arab refugees in a sewer in Gaza? The Arabs did, by DELIBERATELY preventing a Humanitarian solution to the refugee question. They prevented the Palestinian refugees from integrating. It is outrageous that these people are still living in a sewer, despite all the millions being thrown at them by international aid. The Jewish refugees were also put in camps in Israel, but they were all eventually resettled, without a penny in international aid.
It is outrageous that a child of a Palestinian born in Egypt cannot acquire Egyptian nationality. It is outrageous that a Palestinian who has lived all his life in Lebanon should not be allowed a job or to own property or acquire Lebanese nationality. It is scandalous that Gaddafi should be talking about deporting his Palestinians. If you genuinely care about these Palestinians’ human rights, you should be protesting to Arab governments, not Israel.
hahaha WE WANT AL ANDALUS BACK! NOW!
We are talking about ownership of land and property that has been violated. There is legal precedent that shows that the idea that this is inherited is legitimate, as long as there is documentation. And believe me, there is documentation. Palestinian refugees still have their land deeds, and they still have the keys to their homes. They will never forget. Have you not heard of the many lawsuits of Holocaust survivor’s descendants suing museums or other private individuals who benefited from the many crimes of the Nazis, but especially the confiscation of the property of Jewish Europeans?
“The only reason why you want the Palestinians to return… is so that Israel becomes a majority-Arab state.”
No, it is because they have been dispossessed. But if this is the necessary side effect, so be it. The people now living in Israel should not be kicked out–there is no reason to repeat the crimes of 1948 in the other direction. The rights of these individuals trump the right of any state, especially one whose only objection is one that is racist at its core: “we don’t want Arabs because we want a Jewish majority state at all times.” But you think that the only “threat” (funny that you use this word to describe the Arab populations in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza) to Israel’s demography is the refugee population, even though the population of Arabs in Israel (20%) will eventually be greater than the population of Jews. But before it can ever come to that I’m sure the Israeli state will repeat its crimes by dispossessing them. This is why fascist groups like Yisrael Beiteinu are the only ones who accurately know what is necessary for a Jewish-majority state in land that does not naturally have a Jewish-majority population.
“It is outrageous that a child of a Palestinian born in Egypt cannot acquire Egyptian nationality. It is outrageous that a Palestinian who has lived all his life in Lebanon should not be allowed a job or to own property or acquire Lebanese nationality. It is scandalous that Gaddafi should be talking about deporting his Palestinians.”
I agree.
“If you genuinely care about these Palestinians’ human rights, you should be protesting to Arab governments, not Israel.”
Because the “Arab governments” have an inherent responsibility for the Palestinians that Israel dispossessed. Did you establish this because they’re all Arabs? I guess this is the logic that Nuri al-Said must have had when he reasoned that Iraqi Jews who had been there for centuries were now the responsibility of the “Jewish government.” How does it feel to be in such company?
I am especially amused by the fact that your narrative conveniently vindicates Israel of all responsibility for its crimes in the past, and its crimes in the present. Oh humanitarian, please, join the folks at Machsom Watch or B’tselem–maybe then we can take you seriously when you say that leaving 700,000 people homeless and refusing to deal with them because they are Arabs is “humanitarian.”
How very orderly, how very systematic. How lucky these Palestinians were. They had time to get their land deeds from the bank, and all their documents. We Jewish refugees were dispossessed of far more, but to be carrying a land deed while trying to escape the country was an invitation to be arrested or even executed. We had no time to get our deeds out of the bank, the Iraqi government thoughtfully closed them all to make sure we could get neither documentation nor money out.
Dispossession is what being a refugee is all about, but none of the refugee populations of the 20th century have ever returned to their properties, and certainly not Holocaust survivors! But compensation is a different matter and I fully support it for Palestinians as well as Jewish refugees.
You seem to assume that 60 years on, the Arab refugees are Israel’s responsibililty. Israel assumed responsibliity for Jewish refugees, even though it was not responsible for their expulsion. Show me evidence that the Arabs have ever acknowledged responsibility for driving out their Jews. They are too busy rewriting history! Everything is Israel’s fault!
At the very least the Arab states should take responsiblity for their own flesh and blood refugees – and there are many people who hold the Arabs responsible for creating the Palestinian refugee problem in the first place. I’m being charitable by describing this as an exchange of populations as if both sides were equally to blame. In fact the Arab states created both sets of refugees by declaring war against Israel and driving out their Jews.
You can lecture me about Betselem the day you can show there is a Btselem on your side prepared to do something about human rights violations in the Arab world.
“In fact the Arab states created both sets of refugees by declaring war against Israel and driving out their Jews.”
As long as you believe this no matter what the evidence shows, then there is really no way to reconcile this issue with you.
“You can lecture me about Betselem the day you can show there is a Btselem on your side prepared to do something about human rights violations in the Arab world.”
Is this a joke? I am offended by this statement, and I think others will be too.
It’s a fact even your New Historians don’t deny: if the Arab states had not gone to war against Israel in 1948 there would have been not a single Arab refugee.
It is no joke: where is the Arab B’tselem? I don’t see why pointing this out should offend you.
“It’s a fact even your New Historians don’t deny: if the Arab states had not gone to war against Israel in 1948 there would have been not a single Arab refugee.
It is no joke: where is the Arab B’tselem? I don’t see why pointing this out should offend you”
Yep…I don’t see it as an illegal occupation at all. The Arabs kept attacking Israel and rejecting settlements and cried when they lost…over and over again. Yaman seems to want to put all the onus on Israel which is absurd.
I also disagree with Jina’s conclusions…but he is always wrong…so nothing new there.
But most of us have heard ALL these arugements a thousand times. There is a reality on the ground…the Palestinians are NOT coming back to Israel unless the Arabs unite (not likely within the next couple of days) and blow Israel off the map and also spend the next 1000 years in a red glowing nuclear swamp that will be most of the ME…So most the this discussion is a waste.
The only solution is the continued war of attrition forever, or a compromise and neither side is going to be entirely happy with the outcome.
Jews are not going back to their homes in Iraq, or Syria or Lebanon etc. and Palestinians will not be moving back to Haifa…stop with “The Arab Dream Palace” (ever read it?) routine and let’s think realistically about how this can be achieved.
Sometimes I think that folk believe Palestinians and Jews were the only populations shifted around during the 20th century…not even close.
(TRying to post this comment over and over again…)
Why don’t you ask the brave activists languishing in jails around the Arab world where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you ask Esra’a, who has spearheaded a number of important organizations like FreeKareem.org and Migrant-Rights.org at great risk to her self, where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you go ask Howadya Matwali, a reporter for al-Jazeera who was preparing a documentary on torture in Egypt and is now in prison in a country your government calls “moderate,” where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you ask Imad al-Kabir, who was sodomized by police with a broomstick and then arrested for reporting it, where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you ask the dozens of opposition activists in Egypt, which your country calls “moderate,” who were arbitrarily detained in protests in the constitutional coup last week, where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you ask Dr. Idrees Boufayed, who was arrested upon his return to Libya, America’s new favorite country in the Middle East, where the Arab B’tselem is, okay? Why don’t you go to Syria and ask imprisoned human rights activists like Anwar al-Bunni, Dr. Kamal Labwani, and Michel Kilo, where the Arab B’tselem is? Why don’t you go to all of them and ask them to their faces, “where is the Arab B’tselem?”
What a stupid question, and even more pathetic that you think it will let us forget what the Haganah and Irgun did to innocent Palestinians in 1948. Maybe if you stop using the same hackneyed propaganda that every other uncritical supporter of Israel, right or wrong, uses, you might not come off like an imbecile among the very people you say don’t exist. Maybe if you stopped bragging about Israel’s “democracy” and started paying attention to the people who actually use it–like B’tselem–you could start to understand why Palestine has been occupied for 40 years. Maybe if you stopped bragging about the free press in Israel, and started reading some of it, like the articles by Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, you would not come here and spout off useless, meaningless, and most of all, untrue, propaganda about Israel’s brutal occupation.
Okay? Don’t ask me about the Arab B’tselem if you are not even willing to join or support the Israeli B’tselem (which, by the way, has Arabs in it). What a joke you are.
Muslims in India had Pakistan to run to, Hindus had India to run to, Greeks had Greece to run to… Palestinians didn’t have a Palestine to run to and they still don’t.
Did anyone ask the Palestinians before declaring war on their behalf?
Logic is always your enemy I guess.
I never said, Jews get out of Middle East, I always said, go back to your original fucking borders.
Jews blame the wars of the past to justify their agression now. The generation that waged war on Israel are now dead. You are dealing with a completely different generation. Jews make smiler stupid excuse as Arabs to justify their crap. When are you Jews and the Arabs going to step into the 21st century and be civil about things? When the fuck are you going to stop killing each other over what happened few generations ago?
Jina-
“I never said, Jews get out of Middle East, I always said, go back to your original fucking borders.”
Original borders included parts of current Lebanon, Syria and Jordan…but I assume you have chosen to mark time a bit more recently.
So you talking original 48…48 after the first war you talking 1967? Do you have any notion what any of those actions would entail.
Ah…Jina it is not at all that simple to “go to your original borders”… and, in fact, that will never never happen. Can’t. You cannot move maybe half a million Jews out of the Jerusalem area…that will not happen. This whacky idea of “settlers” is grossly misunderstood by most of the world. Most people living in “illegal territories” are neighborhoods that have just expanded from original “legal” territories, neighborhoods like East Talpiot, Gilo, Ramot etc. contain 10’s of thousands of Israelis that are just ordinary people. I would bet you many don’t even know they are in “the territories” because these places are pretty much continguous parts of Jerusalem….Maybe Bataween knows the exact statistics…but very few are these wild-eyed settlers most of you have stuck in your heads. Those types are a very small group…e.g. a grand total of 500 live in Hebron (but man don’t they get into the news).
There is NO going back to original borders…none. That does not mean that many more remote neighborhoods could not be sacrificed for a true and enduring peace…but you might want to really look at the geograhical reality of the area.
Jina-
“Jews blame the wars of the past to justify their aggression now. The generation that waged war on Israel are now dead.”
No…Jews blame current aggression on the aggression that exists NOW and has always existed.
The generation that waged war on Israel is NOT dead….a few left from 48 and plenty left from 67, 73 and 82 and all the on-going terrorist aggression…including attempts that were thwarted today.
Folks like you want to just toss this aside as a non-issue when in fact, for Israeli’s, it is THE issue.
“When the fuck are you going to stop killing each other?”
I don’t know…ask Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizballah, Fatah, Tanzin, etc. for starters.
Border that I am talking about is the border that was defined when Israel was declared an independent nation.
Trust me, moving half a million Jews out of these areas is much easier than moving millions of Palestinians into Israel. Take your pick.
I never said it’s going to be easy, did I?
Actually Howie, almost every Jew I talked to say, they tried to wipe us out when Israel was created so we have to… this is the god damn answer people give me.
You also left out the IDF. You dismiss the faults of the Israelis while holding the Palestinians as the only obstacle to peace. Get real!
Jina-
“You also left out the IDF. You dismiss the faults of the Israelis while holding the Palestinians as the only obstacle to peace. Get real!”
Back to your relativism..ho-hum
Never never said Israel did not contribute to the problem…but do I think it is 50-50…nope…I think Palestinian and Arab leadership has been made up of almost solely maximalists and rejectionists and repressors…not much different than the leadership they use on their own citizens today (notice most liberal or Muslim bloggers don’t use their full names,,,ah except Karim…humm…what happened to him?).
You seen Jina…Israel never got to deal with the Esra’a types, or the Karims, or the Yaman’s or Bahars etc. They have typically been “quieted” by their own leaders.
You want me to say some bad things about Israeli society; rude, arrogant, violent, increasing use of drugs and alcohol, theft, courrption, deteriorating social values, etc.
But everybody has a voice and you hear ALL KINDS of voices ALL the time and this is an enormous and important difference and the tyranny and corruption and lack of freedom of expression has been a huge part of the resolution of this problem.
Even when I lived in ISrael I CLEARLY recall moderate Palestinians being threatened with death, like the ex-Christian mayor of Bethleham. Ask the Muslim Palestian writer, Abu Tomeh, what happened to him for “disagreeing with policy”.
Yes there is blame of both sides…but yes I do place much more blame on the Palestinian side. This is only important in that, hopefully, the average Joe can wake-up and reject the extremist and victimhood mentalilty he is bombarded with and learn that his own people are probably screwing him far worse than the Israelis have…just look up Arafat’s Swiss bank account for starters…maybe you can get it from his Nationalistic wife…you can reach her at her penthouse in Paristine.
“Actually Howie, almost every Jew I talked to say, they tried to wipe us out when Israel was created so we have to… this is the god damn answer people give me.”
Where do you talk to these Jews? In your 7-11 where you have them addicted to junk food that is not kosher and that you know will kill them young…???
You you you…Jew-hater!!!
One of Israel’s friends put him in jail. One of America’s closest ally in the ME put him in jail. This brings another important issue.
These “leaders” are not their leaders. Leader are chosen by the people, you can’t call them their leader if the people didn’t have a choice in choosing them.
Copycat.
Few who visit this very very website said that.
Howie:
Abu Toameh is a fool.
Jina:
I don’t mean to be annoying, but I think we should not use the word “Jews” when we talk about Israel. Not all Jews are Israelis, and Israel does not represent all the Jews in the world. Not to mention that there is a sizable portion of Israeli society (including both Arabs and Jews) who do not fit into the claims you’ve made about ‘Jews.’
I know that Yaman, I was specifically talking about Jews hence I used the word Jews.
Jina-
“Copycat.”
Good memory
“Few who visit this very very website said that.”
Huh?
Yaman-
Tomeah is a fool? Why? Because he has criticized Palestinian leadership and behavior? I know he is a fool who has been beaten and had his life threatened for it…nice way to debate him I must say.
For those who follow the jibes between Jina and I…it is mostly tongue in cheek. However…even with his tongue in cheek, he cannot pronounce “about” correctly.
Jina-
“These “leaders†are not their leaders. Leader are chosen by the people, you can’t call them their leader if the people didn’t have a choice in choosing them”
Not my fault…but still stuck with the outcomes.
Jina-
“One of Israel’s friends put him in jail. One of America’s closest ally in the ME put him in jail.”
Jina…dude…really…that has to be the lamest argument you have ever made. Hey folks…and Arabs old and current buddy the Russians kill Chechens and used to kill Afanganis and repressed every “stan” north of Iran and I mean…really.
And America is still allied to the biggest baby seal killers in the world…the shame…the SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Howie: I met Abu Toameh in Berkeley. He gave a little talk with StandWithUs and the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. It was not impressive, and he was trying really hard to amuse the right-wing audience. He did not have to try hard, after all he was pretty much saying everything that they do. Afterwards, I challenged a few of his more inane comments, and he was unable to respond. I wrote this account of the stupider things he said.
Most importantly, he was a guy who kept telling his audience that pro-Palestine students “don’t understand the complexity” of the situation and therefore should shut up about it. For a guy who brags about “understanding” the complexity, he sure doesn’t incorporate that understanding into his analyses, which use stupid generalizations like “the Arabs are emotional people.” At the crux of his “analysis” is the same simple formula that Orientalists have used for decades. Nothing special here, just another Arab Orientalist.
“Because he has criticized Palestinian leadership and behavior?”
So did people like Edward Said. And yet, you don’t see StandWithUs and the FDD touring him around, do you?
Arabs are trying to do something about it, that is why this site exist. That is why Kareem is in prison. Maybe these people’s chance might improve a bit if the Westerners stop funding the tyrants.
Ones again you got it wrong, not Arab’s buddy, but Arab government’s buddy. These governments don’t represent the people.
At least we don’t kill baby Palestinians or Iraqis. pwned!!!
Yaman-
“The wall that Israel is building,” he said, “and the checkpoints, should all have the following written on them: Made By Yasser Arafat and Hamas.” He also said that “if it were up to me, I wouldn’t pull out from the West Bank either under the current circumstances.” He also stated that Hamas and Fatah should not be dealt with diplomatically until they proved they were “moderate” by recognizing Israel’s right to exist, renouncing violence, and accepting Oslo.”
OK…I read his remarks…and I fully agree with him.
Killing baby Palestinians and Iraqi…you must be referring to Shia and Sunni insurgents and the Fatah and Hamas going after each other?
Oh…and Canadians are not blowing themselves up in the middle of ice cream palors…I grant you that…but they might if there were baby seals there eating ice cream.
Howie: Thanks for voicing your agreement with Abu Toameh’s opinions. Now that the real authority on the Arab-Israeli conflict has spoken, I know what is true and what is not. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for educating me.
Yaman-
By-the-way…too bad you have to deteriorate into name-calling when you feel frustrated…I think it is immature and uncalled for…
But it IS OK to name-called Canadians…because the are useless, seal-murdering, English-language slaughtering, beer-swilling hockey puck kissing, brain frozen zits on the face of the earth.
I’m slowly losing track here – I can’t figure out who’s being sarcastic and who’s not. I just hope we didn’t scare bataween away, despite her views I still consider her a friend.
I have never seen the issue treated as such. In fact I have rarely seen the issue even mentioned.
Of course not. Who would actually want their brethren to live as a minority among Arabs? Israel has seen what happened to Jews before they fled to Israel. Israel has seen what happened to the Kurds. But why is that a reason for Israel not to take up this issue? It isn’t.
The reason Israel doesn’t talk about it is simply because there is no point in talking about it. The Arab side likes talking about refugees, the Jewish side does not. Jews have enough trouble with Europe for remembering the Shoah.
Note that these Jews did not threaten the country they lived in, did not try to participate in an attack on their countrymen. The Palestinian Arabs were not simply expelled because they were Arabs, although I am sure there were racist Zionists who supported such an idea.
What exactly should Israel have done? Allow the Israeli Arabs to kill the Jews while the other Arab states attacked?
And as for the situation of the Arab Palestinians today, what exactly should Israel have done? What would have been this more humane alternative? Blame Israel for what they did to Arabs all you want; but unless you have an idea of what Israel should have done instead, you are not solving a problem.
Israel has no interest in oppressing Arabs. It costs money and lives and there are no advantages whatsoever. The ONLY reason Israel does it is because the alternative is death.
Create another alternative and Israel will gladly save the money and effort.
The idea that Israel enjoys wasting money and time on doing something that generates no profit is preposterous. And the conflict cannot be solved by attacking the problem at an angle that simply doesn’t exist.
If you want Israel to change, give Israel a third option. Don’t assume that Israel oppresses people for no very good reason.
As long as the Arab Palestinians consistently vote for parties that want to kill Jews, I really don’t see how they are the victims. They are potential perpetrators. And Israel merely stops them from becoming such. Or how should I interpret their sick wish to see Hamas throw rockets into Jewish kindergardens?
Turns out the tyrants not funded by the west are the worst.
Mubarak is not a good man, but he is a lot better than some of the others. If the west stopped funding him he would simply be replaced by somebody much worse. So I don’t see how you can blame the west.
The Saudi dictatorship is self-funded (or rather theft-funded, as the oil their power is based on is only valuable because of western inventions). Do you think the west _wants_ to give the Saudis money for oil?
Syria and Iran are not funded by the west at all. And despite claims of many people neither was Saddam (his supporters were China and Russia, and to a lesser extent France, not the UK and US).
Says who?!
The tyrants funded by the West are the ones who treat their citizens the worst. Take Egypt as the perfect example.
You think they are not the worst because you measure what’s personally threatning to you – but to the rest of the people living under these tyrants, they are a nightmare. You are hardly the victims of US-funded dictatorships.
Esra’a
I don’t agree with you on this one…the USA does not fund Iran, Libya, Sudan, Syria and some other real rotten guys…but I think this is off the point…
You know…what if you had a session on people’s ideas of what could help instead of this ping-pong match of “who done it” since it does not accomplish much. AB kind of leads to that point…
I would also make a rule that it has to be realistic constructive ideas and name-calling and history arugments will just be edited out.
Just for the hell of it.
Well, we have already been saying that for years, and not many people listen, including you Howie. A lot of the time that is just preaching to the choir, and unless all of us are really ready to do it, then that sort of discussion will take place. But you and I aren’t ready, and neither are most people on this site or elsewhere. We need to get things out of our system or else they will forever be on our minds. Keep in mind that we never had the opportunity to discuss these things in the past. You don’t go from point A to point Z, you climb the ladder first and experience the worst. Only then can you learn and apply it seriously.
Not necessarily. Go ask a Chilean what he thought of Augusto Pinochet or a Filipino on Ferdinand Marcos or even a Greek about George Papadoupolos and you will be surprised.
No but the U.S. has for the past 60 years been supporting dictators and leaders that go in line with their interests. The U.S. government has absolutely no problem overthrowing democratically-elected leaders to replace them with iron-fisted dictators that hook the U.S. up with vital necessities while screwing the welfare of their people over.
Indonesia with Suharto, Pakistan with General Yahya Khan and Zia ul-Haq, Saudi Arabia with the House of Saud, Greece with George Papadoupolos, Manuel Noriega of Panama, Augusto Pinochet of Chile (where he was brought to power by overthrowing a democratically-elected President), Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi of Iran (also brought to power via overthrow of its democratic institutions), and Somoza of Nicaragua, to name a few.
You want to do something about the rising tide of political Islam? The West should force their allies in the Middle East to combat corruption, clean up office, and offer at least SOME freedoms to their people so the appeal of political Islam is less appealing.
Esra’a
Actually…we have discussed this stuff in the past and you threw one of your temper tantrums…check the archieves…but OK…let’s go round and round about history.
Danial-
“No but the U.S. has for the past 60 years been supporting dictators and leaders that go in line with their interests.”
That is brilliant!!! Then the USA should support dictators and leaders that DON’t go in line with their interests.
I get sick of this “hipocracy” line… What countries…what businesses, what any major organization doesn’t do this? Come on…the Arabs KISSED the Soviets asses for years and the Soviets were OCCUPYING and REPRESSING…WAY more Muslims and the USA or Israel or whatever; Cheneya, Uzbekistan, Afganistan, Turkmeistan, and on and on…really…enough of that line of argument…Good Lawd
To all our Israeli and Jewish friends here at Mideast Youth — A Chag Kasher vSameach — have a happy and kosher Pesach !!!
(Passover starts Mon evening)
and to our Christian friends here – a happy Easter for next weekend and to our Muslim friends – have a great week!
Yeah, because you do your “I’m right and y’all are wrong and we in Israel and the US are the best woo!” and that attitude pisses me off. If you really, truly, want to apply what you said, kiss your pride and extreme nationalism goodbye.
G., thanks!
Sorry Howie if I seemed harsh but it’s true, I’ve never in my life seen you admit anything that the U.S or Israel has done wrong, you just justify it instead, and when we are the ones openly criticizing our countries you use it against it and drill the fact that “Israel and the US is just sooooo much better,” and I don’t appreciate that, it’s very nationalistic and insulting to the rest of us who have the guts to criticize ourselves instead of justifying our mistakes.
Esra’a-
, “I’ve never in my life seen you admit anything that the U.S or Israel has done wrong,”
Wrong again…check the archieves
I would say around Jan. or Feb…in fact even this past week I have written LISTS of issues in the USA and Israel…
It is easy to mis-read people here, but really don’t be silly. I am not an ultra-patriot by any means…
Check the archives dearest chamodah…you are very very wrong on that one.
Esra’a-
I have to make one other comment on this note…
Though we see things differently on many issues…think about something…on MOST issues we want the SAME thing;
What do I want for the Muslim world? Death, destruction, chaos? Nope…I want to see:
Increased freedom of expression
Increased freedom of choice
Freedom of press
Right to vote
End of torture
End of oppression of minorities and women
Peaceful relationships with the West
Increased trade and tourism going back and forth between all of us
A happier and better informed population
End of general, harsh oppression of political activists
End of violence and rage
Increased secularization of schools and government
If only for purely selfish, non-humanitarian reasons…this is what I wish upon the Muslim world…because it would only make the world a better and safer and far more interesting place.
But I am very cynical…not about most people but about the systems they are trapped in that, typically, fight progress in these areas tooth and nail.
I don’t recall, so I don’t have anything in mind to search for. If you remember a single incident in which you went against your ‘pride’, because hell, I certainly don’t, then give us a link and prove it.
Esra’a
“If you remember a single incident in which you went against your ‘pride’, because hell, I certainly don’t”
Now you blaming the Jews for Alzhiemer’s Disease, eh?
Jina probably remembers…we have not attacked the Canadians yet…but JUST YOU WAIT.
You see…I have inmumberable problems with issues in the USA and Israel. What you focus on are my minimal criticism of Israel’s policies vis-a-vie the Palestinians/Arabs and that is because I primarily agree with most of those policies…this is where you and I and most Arabs, like Yaman, are MILES apart.
You see it as some random oppression…like it is a national sport or something…I see it as a response to non-stop terror and years of attacks, threats of attacks and rejectionism.
Just like “the” Wall. If it was a land grab…why was in not built across the Sinai desert, the Golan and Southern Lebanon. Why was it built during the middle of the SECOND intifada? Suddenly we woke up in 2002 and said…good day for a land grab. This thinking is just wrong…but this is what you focus on…note that you made no comment about the positive things I just said in the second post.
You too, “filter out” what does not support your worldview and then slant and focus on some of my criticisms and then have temper tantrums (which you have not done in awhile…what happened to your great English curses anyhow
?
Esra’a
Here….happy now?
Jerusalem
Syndrome
Tourism ministers never refer to it, and tour operators and hotel managers are careful not to hint at it. Yet in 1999 alone over 50 people were diagnosed with the disease known as Jerusalem Syndrome.
It was first identified in the 1930s by Dr. Heinz Herman, one of the founders of modern psychiatric research in Israel, and later researched by Dr. Yair (Carlos) Bar-El, former district head of psychiatry for the Health Ministry.
The disease is characterized by sudden and intense religious delusions, which are triggered by visiting Jerusalem.
According to Bar-El’s research, the encounter with the Holy City, particularly for those with deep religious convictions, convinces syndrome victims that they must do something in connection with specific major events such as Armageddon, the resurrection of Christ and the coming of the Messiah.
The syndrome begins with an extremely intense excitement, followed by a strong sense of mission. Some of the afflicted adopt biblical clothing and instruments – usually a harp or a lyre, merging their personality with a biblical character, such as King David or Jesus.
Bar-El’s studies revealed that most people who suffer from the syndrome have no prior history of psychiatric illness and won’t have any once the “crisis” passes.
Afflicted tourists have been found wandering the streets of the city, wrapped in their hotel sheets, or lying by the Church of the Holy Sepulchre , some convinced that they are going to give birth (again) to Jesus and thus save the world.
- Peggy Cidor
Something the Palestinians have actually experienced more – why are you in denial of this simple fact? It doesn’t take a genius to figure this out, you know. The curfews, the checkpoints, the constant aggression. So none of it is Israel’s fault, huh? Must be those dumb Arabs.
Okay okay Howie that was harsher than the usual so I apologize, you know I love you, I just can’t help but react from my emotions at times though.
Esra’a-
I have also that this before…that I adore you, admire what you are doing and deeply respect you…
Now please, once again, remind me…which shift do you work at Hooter’s?…I was planning on dropping by as usual to say hello.
hahahahhaa… loosers, we burnt down your bloody White House the last time you tried to invade us.
Our asses have been kicked by Vietnamese and Canadians…both sneaky, crafty little bastards.
[...] on your side prepared to do something about human rights violations in the Arab world,” I was once told after citing reports by the Israeli human rights organization B’tselem to mock a claim that [...]
[...] on your side prepared to do something about human rights violations in the Arab world,” I was once told after citing reports by the Israeli human rights organization B’tselem to mock a claim that [...]