02
Apr
2007
41 Comments
Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out
The video below is a must
A searing interview with Avichai Sharon and Noam Chayut, both veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces and members of Breaking the Silence. Sharon and Chayut served during the second intifada, an on-going bloodbath that has claimed the lives of over three thousand Palestinians and nine-hundred-fifty Israelis. After thorough introspection, these young men have chosen to speak out about their experiences as self-described “brutal occupiers of a disputed land.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo[/youtube]
P.S. The situation in the occupied Palestinian territories is actually a lot worse than this brief break out of reality shows.
from Alternate Focus
[Hat tip: Sabbah]Â
Join the Conversation
Nice to hear the “other’ side for once! I await the blame -
Traitors!
Jerks!
Anti-Semites!
Anti-Israel propagandists!
Puppets for Arab terrorism!
Etc, etc. I await it all.
I bet they receive a lot of this from their fellow citizens, and the ultra-Zionist Americans.
Damn it, you beat me to it
You missed self hating Jew.
Watch, Howie is going to come and deny this.
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no no no .. you’ve got it all wrong .. these soldiers were just helping keep palestinian terrorism in check … *rolls his eyes
Not surprise.
NOTE – I hope no one confuses this with Jew-bashing, or Israeli-bashing, because it is clearly neither.
They are opinions, some of which are apparently expressed by Israeli Jews themselves. There is nothing wrong or racist about it. Just a note.
To all-
Yes…I do have a whole lot to say…but not much of what you have predicted. These guys spoke their minds, something common in Israeli society where you have everything from KACH to Shalom Achshav or Yesh G’vul etc. They spoke their minds in public…most here have to speak their minds in hiding…unless they lick the party line of course…But it is all relative…yup…relative…and I don’t think this is Jew or Israeli bashing.
But let’s be fair…shall the readers also consider things like:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/
http://www.shoebat.com/
http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/
And I wonder…how would soldiers and police treat potential terrorists in your own countries…anybody willing to answer that honestly? Hell…how do they treat people that just want to speak there minds? Karim…Karim? Can you hear me? Van Goegh? Iranian newspaper writers? Kurds? Darfurians? Bahai’s of Iran? Salmin Rushdie?
I can see the proper way for an Isaeli soldier to act?
Ah sir…you are wearing a large overcoat and I notice it is 110 degrees outside. Ah…mind if I take a little look here pretty please…
Racist oppressor…go fuck yourself, cus emek!
But sir…please…with milk and cookies…
You are humilating me
Geez…really sorry…but we just have these issues with people blowing up our ice cream palors…and all the little kids in them to boot…pleasey wheezie
Just because I am a young, Palestinian, male, Muslim with an overcoat on a 110 degree day gives you no reason to treat me this way.
Geez I miss our kids…they blow up so quickly these days.
And I would like to pose a challenge…
If the shoe were on the other foot…what would you do? Can somebody give an honest answer?
No checkpoints
No wall
No searches
No restrictions
No prisons
How would you protect the people from a society that, in general, wants to destroy you…says it and tries it and does not accept moderation nor does it accept people would speak or act out against the more radical groups.
It is not so simple as a bunch of bad Israels running around stripping searching Palestinians…I know many here, like Mo, feel Israel should not be protecting its citizens and if they would just act nice…everybody would be nice right back…you can’t even pull that off in your own countries…not even close.
Somebody give me a better idea…not some silly cliches
Howie -
That’s your problem. All you think about is how much they hate you and how they want to destroy you when really, all they want to do is to live. At some point they say “enough is enough,” and they seek revenge through terrorist tactics, the majority are NOT guilty of this however. But they all suffer a VERY big price, which is nothing but unfair and humiliating. All they wanna do is lead normal lives, something many Israelis already do.
You protect yourself by imprisoning them, both through real prisons and through curfews?
You have every right to protect yourselves, but not through further terrorism, and not through making the lives of millions of people unbarable.
Ok…got the standard cliches…want to try answering my questions?
Esra’a
And many do hate me…I have seen it and experienced it…not just in Israel, but here in the United States…I know many do hate us and wish us dead and I know this because many say it, threaten it and many have done it…and not just in Israel…
That is a reality I fully understand…I can still remember in 1972 listening to some spoiled Arab prick in the student union at Cal State Long Beach talking about how “we need to finish what Hitler started” and they both laughed… and there have been many other experiences.
I sorry for the good who suffer because of pieces of shit like that guy…but until the terrorists start walking around with hats and uniforms…innocents will suffer.
Here we go again – denial, and accusing anything else as “cliche.”
We can’t go anywhere with this if you want to cry and whine and act like the victim.
Others are also dying. Others are also feeling as if they are being wiped out. Others are also in danger of being completely erased from history – not just you. You matter, but you do NOT matter MORE than the others whose rights have been abused.
And I DID answer the questions. You just dismissed it as I expected you to. Anything you disagree with has to be a cliche.
Seriously. I want to hear other Israelis who are actually living there to speak their minds, instead of this going around with a daily banquet of bullshit.
I know there are other Israelis out there who truly feel badly towards their Palestinian brethren going through what they go through, Israelis who love their countries and people but only just as much as they love the ones whose rights aren’t being recognized.
I’m not intrested in your paranoia Howie. “omg the world wants to kill me.” Whatever, I don’t buy it. Hundreds of minorities are going through much more graver issues and yet you make this all about you and yourself. Who cares? Do you? You are sitting comfortably in the U.S justifying there horrific mistakes that your country has done, in the name of whom, and with whose blood are you playing with?
I love Israel. I love Israelis. It’s a great country and its people are wonderful. But put your nationalism and pride aside – treat humans as people with reasons to live. Stop justifying your mistakes and for once in your life, try to fix them.
By the way, I really don’t think nationalists realize how much harm they are doing their country by repeatedly denying and justifying their grave errors and making Palestinian human rights abuses seem much more insiginficant than what it is, or even worse, well-deserved.
This mentality is not called defending it, or protecting the country. It’s making things much worse – people will want revenge, if this mentality is being promoted. There is NO shame in criticizing yourself and what your country has committed. These brave men who spoke are doing what’s best for their country, not only what’s best for the so-called “other.” But in the eyes of many they will be considered cowards who “tarnish” the reputation of their countries. And it saddens me, that humanity, that considering the “enemy” as humans deserving of just as many rights, is considered an act of cowardness.
I just hope that the nationalists (my definition of those who no matter what defend their countries even when it has committed crimes) will soon realize how much damage they are causing to their countries and to the reputation of its good people. By doing what you do you are empowering others to do just as much damage – is that what you want?
A crime is a crime. Don’t excuse it. A suicide bombing is a crime, they call it “freedom fighting” and “revenge.” An Israeli bomb attack or air strike is a crime, they call it “retaliation” and “self-defense.”
If you excuse it, don’t expect others not to. Unless you want to see the back and forthness of “they started it!”, own up to your freakin’ mistakes, and they will to. It’s mind boggling how people defend crimes and murder, no matter how much you love your country, no matter whom you lost at war, it’s going to hurt even more if you lash it out on innocent people. Stop it. You aren’t the only victims and you will never be, there are thousands of people suffering in the region and you KNOW it. Stop trying to sell us the idea that you are being seeked by invisible Arab-Muslim ninjas who haunt your dreams and aim to kill you. You live in freakin’ America – the most powerful people there are Jews, for God’s sake, no one’s gonna kill you. Sheesh. If someone wanted to target the Jews they would’ve bombed Hollywood a long time ago. You are NOT the most endangered minority in the world – you have the most POWERFUL facilities, the best technology, you live in the richest nations…. God Howie, what else could you ask for? A freakin’ planet of your own?!
Ho hum…
Esra’a's relativism strikes again…
Denial and lack of refutations…
Ho hum indeed. Pass the falafel.
How ironic…here it is Passover…and I am STILL being oppressed by the damn Arabs!!!!
GO FIND SOMEBODY ELSE TO ENSLAVE
I’ve seen that video clip before – – the intefada was a war like scenery were young soldiers were put in a situations that of course for sensible ones with modern times humanism beliefs is unbearable – (it’s unbearable to kill even one single person)
State of war has it’s cruelties & is always barbaric – a state which the more civilized & sensible people should/would deeply avoid –
But on the other hand you can’t avoid it anymore if you are getting attacked. – you have to counteract for not getting destroyed or wiped out –
What has hurt the conscience of these 2 young veteran soldiers so much is understandable, & it’s good that you hear in Israel all kind of voices & opinions, of convictions & beliefs – I would also like to hear that kind of self-critizism from Palestninan side – the different opinions in Israel wouldn’t fight each other like Fatah & Hamas.
The intefada, was a civil war like situation – that’s one of the ugliest & dirtiest war situation – because you never know where the enemies are. – there’s no frontline – you just don’t know from which houses they came from – - if civilians ar mingled with fighters it’s hard to find whom to attack. – & that leads unavoidable to situations, where innocents are getting killed, where soldiers or army units overreact, where young soldiers are put in really ugly situations confronted with – war state is action & counter-reaction – it often gets ‘them’ or ‘we’ – I’d wish everyone tried to be fair in all these millions of situations
Well I don’t want to continue on that intefada situation once, but as I see in the actual situation between Israel & Gaza with a armistice of about 5 months now, but all the time about daily there were flying Khasams by Hamas or other units out of controf by Fatah into Israel – what else could Israel do now then to react again – but if they try to find those who shoot & prepare those Khasams – then it’s again : “the terrorist Israelis brutally harming Palestinian women & children†– Israel would never put a single foot into Gaza, if it wouldn’t be shot all the time from there – if someone would throw all the times stones at my windows & into my garden, hurting my children– I may also would try to get those offenders & if I couldn’t get them, would build a defence wall between them.
So what Howie said: – what if:
No checkpoints
No wall
No searches
No restrictions
No prisons
all these things are awful of course, & should be quickly removed if there would be peace, but I believe they are necessary for Israel to avoid terror attacks going on & on. – they are not made for restrictions – they are made for defense.
Or can someone point out, what would happen otherwise?.
It’s sad that Israel meanwhile got over-militarized, but that’s what you get, if your getting attacked all the time – if Israel would have lost any war it would have been wiped out already.
We know what most Arab states did do the Jews in their countries, some of them meanwhile about Jew-free – - without even having had Jews committing suicide attacks or shooting Khassams etc. – Israel didn’t throw all Arabs out (see what Jordan did with the Palestinensians) -Israel isn’t doing holocaust to Arabs like some perverted minds even try to say (like Human rights presenters of Iran in UNO are exclaiming)
- but this keeping Palestinians in kind of prison –of course that’s true- I see the misery the people there live in, but that wouldn’t be, if there wouldn’t come all the time attacks from there..- it’s kind of self-imprisonment of selfdestructional ideals that bear suicide-bombers.
I don’t believe that there will piece ever in that region if groups like Hamas or Hizbollah rule – humbling down of both sides with concessions on both sides on same level, but then Palestineans had to be a united people with one government & one official government representation valid for all. – as long as Hamas keeps it’s war declaration of never accepting Israel as state, as long Israel has to keep this ‘imprisonment of Palestineans’ – Well I wouldn’t open a prison while those inside there try to kill me the moment I set them free..
‘be peace’ – not piece
Hamas even wants to destroy the Kawani’s Club.
Heimo-
Thanks for making the point. I personally know a guy that fought in the 2nd Intifada…instead of blowing up a house, he was afraid of hurting civilians…he entered and caught two bullets in the leg and one in the head…Roi is his name…what is left of him.
But…yes Heimo…you are right on the money with your remarks. They will reject it…but that is exactly the situation…I put most…not all, but most of the blame on the Palestinians.
Paranoid…no
Here is my math:
1.2 billion Muslims
Probably at least 60% don’t pay much attention to these issues…and just want to live
Probably 10-15% are very open and try to understand.
10-20% approximately…hate me…HATE me for being a Jew and being connected to Israel…that still is over 200 hundred million people.
If you apply those same stats to Jews…it adds up to about 1.5 million.
I don’t like my odds
Your math is flawed because there is not data on the matter. I can make up number like you and say Jews want to rule the world or kill all the Palestinians and come to some dickheaded conclusion like you just did.
On the other issue, why the fuck can’t you ever stick to the topic at hand? This post was about IDF and Israel, not Arab countries. Why are you bringing in Kareem? Again the country that jailed Kareem is your fucking ally. Instead debating about the issue, you bring in irrelevant issues like how Israel is free and anyone can say what they want to say. What does this have to do with the issue at hand? Does it address the corruption that these guys are talking about in the fucking video?
Don’t debate like a monkey, jumping from tree to tree.
There is nothing more ridiculous than a Jew in one of the safest countries in the world (in terms of political power and religious rights) and one of the richest nations complaining about people wanting him dead. I can’t believe you’re even calculating how many people want you dead – do you have something to keep you busy instead of being overwhelmingly paranoid for a threat that barely exists? Anything? Maybe cross-words?
I read your posts with disbelief that this is coming from a Jew in the U.S. It’s just very satirical, I don’t think you’re being serious most of the tme. I feel like you walk around with a hoodie and a cigar keeping look-out for any Muslim passer-bys. How do you deal with yourself with this kind of mentality? Did you know that many Muslims are more likely to kill each other rather than hunt you down? You give yourself way too much credit.
You’re not important. The world doesn’t revolve around your ass. Muslim ninjas who want to kill you are only in your imagination – and if those exist they are our enemies just as much as they are yours, and we are just as likely to get killed as you are (actually, more. You’re in the U.S., remember? the land you love to brag about for being so safe, and here you are, wondering when ‘they’ are going to kill you.) and this “they” don’t even equal the majority – are you talking about 5 people you saw on Fox News expressing this hatred? They target the moderate Muslims more often than they target any Jews. Stop being so delusional, it’s not healthy to be this paranoid. No one feels sorry for you. No one SHOULD feel sorry for you. And it’s VERY bad that you divert the attention to paint yourself as the victim.
From the very first time I posted about migrant rights and racism in the Middle East, you said “people hate me and want me dead.” Why are you so attention seeking? I’m curious to know, because this seems to be a power issue. Do you like the excitement that comes with being “sought for” (and by NO ONE)?
“They HATE me… they want me dead….”
What a performance! This has to be satire. It can’t be real that the average Jew who is better off than over 80% of the world’s population in terms of safety and financial security is actually COMPLAINING rather than APPRECIATING the fact that they are better off than the real targeted minorities in this world. The REAL victims. And those victims are neither you nor I, Howie, so don’t refer to yourself as that. You should be thanking your lucky stars that you’re who and what you are today, rather than constantly thinking about who wants you dead and why. In many ways, EVERY SINGLE HUMAN on this planet can think of people who want him or her dead. I can come up with a list. You can come up with a list (and we never see the end of it, sheesh), and so can any other average civilians. But not all of us obsess about it the way you do.
Esra’a and Jina-
So…VaJina…we are back to name calling eh.
Both of your remarks are basically from another planet. It is the same old routine…don’t like what you hear…so rant and rave and curse and have tantrums.
Everything that I said stands…in fact your wild flip outs make my point even better than I could.
I think videos or statements like this will help to understand each others needs and problems. At the end there is no big difference. In general the people want to live in a secure environment with protected rights and prosperity (both spiritual and economical). The big task is that the people “grant” those issues also to other “imagined communities”. Thus we need more statements like this one!
Howie, I’m sorry to hear about your fear of an abstract danger! But your more or less malicious propaganda is irresponsible!
). Moreover the danger to be killed in public transportations is more likely. Finally calm down and try to involve yourself in the discussions/ debates by sticking to the topic and not by making a clown of yourself!
So do us a favour and differentiate primary between thoughts and doings. Secondly between abstract and concrete danger. It’s more likely that you’re shot by a lunatic thief with a gun than by “ninja muslims” (I like this association!
Howie, maybe you should watch those three videos:
part 1
part 2
and part 3
Marten,
I never saw a valid refutation. He ignored every argument at hand and refuses to argue them – by changing the topic, or by painting himself as the victim, even though he knows that his lifestyle is far better than the majority of Palestinians within Palestine, both in terms of financial and individual security and human rights. So I cannot see how he could ever be in favor of a debate, he’s too busy checking behind him to make sure that the ninjas aren’t there for him yet.
What we need is Israelis here who are willing to argue. We will leave all name-calling aside if they are just willing to argue with facts and figures and reason, not accusations or justifications of crimes. And from Howie we don’t’ get that – so we need the Israelis to debate with us and tell us how they feel, because we don’t understand them and we want to. To be honest I don’t think Howie is the valid representation of Israelis, we need more.
“Howie, I’m sorry to hear about your fear of an abstract danger!”
OK…big brave big shots…go dress up as a religious Jew…not a soldier…and take a walk in Jenin or Gaza City…
Before you do that…dress up as an Arab and walk around Tel Aviv or Jerusalem…
You will do fine dressed as an Arab…but of course you know you would not try the other option…the few that have had it happen by accident…
So go swim in your favorite Arab river…DeNile
OR… you can actually try to make it through life as a Palestinian… and then do the same as an Israeli… and note which one was more bearable. Then compare causes of death, etc, and apply what these Israeli soldiers are saying, something Howie chooses to ignore by painting himself as, gasp, the biggest victim in the world.
What about your fears. As a Jew living in America who thinks at least 15% of the world’s Muslim population want him, specifically, dead. Can you explain the relevance to this and this video, where Israeli soldiers admit being part of a horrific “system”?
Howie, I could say: “Walk around in New York dressed like an orthodox Jew. Pretty normal. Walk around in New York dressed like a bearded Muslim. Pretty suspicious.” But I won’t do this. Those examples are still abstract. Concrete danger means that somebody points a gun to your head; threatens you personally.
Esra’a I think you’re right with your estimation of Howie. He is not interested in arguing. I hope that more from Israel’s youth find their way to this platform. Israelis, like those I happend to know, would do very fine here in order to create an interfaith/international community with impact to “real life”
After WWI Germany alleged that the Jews inside it were behind bringing the US into the war and ending it in favor of the Allies, they started persecuting and harassing them gradually, the Jews inside Germany responded by launching a big boycotting campaign to all made-in-Germany products, when the Nazi party took over, they eventually ended up collecting them inside camps and slaughtering them in thousands, they were justified in that, they feared those Jews would do the same thing, they burned them in thousands, but that’s ok, you know, war is war, they annihilated them and treated them worse than dogs, but you know, that’s the way it is, the Nazis felt threatened and everyone has to protect himself, and so what! they got a little over-militarized and did a few exaggerations! What would happen if they just stopped the SS forces? what if they shut down Ashutiz? what if they stopped humiliating those Jews? they would probably betray them again, destroy their economy, and cause Germany to loose the war! And remember, 3000 years ago the Jews fought with each others, and it’s recorded that a Jew inside the USSR killed another Jew inside a ghetto, it’s also recorded that there once was a Jew who slaughtered a whole Jewish family in waq waq islands, so, don’t tell me the Nazis are mistaken, as long as there were Jews killing each others, the Nazis have every right to annihilate the Jews in Germany.
how about that Howie? Or your sick mentality only applies to non-Jews? You have presented by far one of the most pathetic debates I’ve seen, the same usual Israeli crap, look at Egypt! Kareem Kareem? And, hey, those at least have the right to speak their minds, not like the case in Somalia! even though they’re saying you and the IOF are nothing but a bunch of criminals! Believe me dude, the only reason we don’t have peace in the Middle East is because there are a lot in Israel and Palestine who has you sickening mentality!
What is exactly your definition of non-cliches arguments? Probably an Arab kissing your ass begging you to forgive him for his grave mistakes and offering you the key to his house?!
When I was 12, I was in Nablus (today’s favorite IOF’s target!) playing outside our family ranch in Toor mountain, a guy dressed up as a religious Jew approached me and started talking with me in English, I couldn’t understand everything he said so I went inside and called my uncle, he came and explained to the guy how can he reach Al Sumara he was asking about! Thanks to Ariel Sharon, this is impossible now.
Now, don’t dress up as an Arab, actually dress up like a British guy and go to any settlement and guess what happens?
and btw, be aware, I just booby trapped this comment, it’ll explode in any Jewish face, WE’RE THERE TO GET YOU
[insert: scary background laughter]
waaaa waaaa waaa they hate me waaaa waaaa waaaa.
what the fuck do you expect .. of course they hate you.
why dont you try giving them a reason to like you .. then maybe you can come here and whine .. and we might even pretend to be interested in hearing what you have to say.
I’d be interested to hear what anyone has to say if only they acknowledged the rights of others to actually exist and to lead normal lives. But denial, justifying hatred, and claiming that the majority want you dead when it’s not true is just something not many people like to deal with.
I don’t see a reason to claim that you are constantly the victim – there ARE Palestinians willing to work on this, there ARE other Arabs willing to work on this, but others push them away with ultra-Zionist mentalities.
Zionism today means a whole different thing than it used to and it’s mostly associated with Israeli nationalism. So when others say anti-Zionist it’s not accurately applied for 2 main reasons:
1) Not all of us who disagree with Israel are anti-Semites who want you dead. Hell, there are Arab Jews themselves who disagree with Israeli policies as well as various different Israelis, such as the ones above, who disagree with Israeli policies. That makes them people with opinions. Not liars, or propagandists, or people who want you dead. Simply people with opinions who deserve and require the same rights that you have and take for granted. Instead of putting those rights to good use you choose to play the victim of worldwide hatred as you describe it.
2) Not all of us who disagree with Israeli polices don’t approve of its existence. There are many Zionist Muslims who agree with the principles of traditional Zionism who actually acknowledge the right for Israel to exist as the “Kingdom of Jews.” However we have every right to disagree with its current policies and the human rights abuses which does NOT make us anti-Zionists.
People are people. They want to live and they have the right to life just as much as you do. When you claim that they hate you – find the source of that hatred, and see what’s wrong on your part. What were their last resorts and what can you do to appease the situation? Even if you find them entirely wrong and unfair, as the much stronger nation you have a duty to aid. How else do you expect to maintain hope? Follow Leah’s example and set a positive, hopeful example for your people rather than furthering the gap with this “they want me dead & they hate me” mentality.
If you find this conversation uncomfortable, and if you think we are bullying you – go ahead and say it, and we will sort this out in a different manner. We are harsh because we are not only outraged, but severely insulted by what you have been saying throughout this thread. Honestly, if you want to keep this up, make an effort to refute the arguments, otherwise drop the nationalist mentality which we do not wish to promote here. People are people regardless of their nationalities and belief systems, so when you make this about “me” vs. “all of them,” that is not only painfully incorrect but also painfully dangerous. And future generations will be the ones who are going to pay this heavy price – do you really want to promote this idea? That it’s impossible to reason with them because they hate your guts? That the majority want to kill you? That they live in a culture of hatred because a few schools promoted suicide bombing to kids? For God’s sake, you have an entire MILITARY that is required to carry out deadlier tactics! One of the strongest military in the world, funded and unconditionally supported by the richest nation in the world, with the most influential media outlets on the planet! You have the upper hand, yet you claim to be the victim. Explain!
Why not just admit the error, so that others admit their errors, and a culture of interfaith and understanding can be born rather than a rat race of a nasty PR war?
Obivously the policy of name-calling, cursing and attacking the commentator was a smoke-screen lie…
The pattern has always been the same…agree or be personally attacked…just like the childish, immature, repulsive remarks that have been made here. Classic pattern for people who don’t abide dissent…only pretend are actually are exactly like the tyrants they say they resent.
Be a good little Jew like Leah…OK Howie?
I am sorry I wasted my time here as I can now clearly see this is not about discussion, but classic dictitorial mind control, just what you proport to complain about.
This is my last comment…khlas…done with you guys…
If you can’t handle criticism, don’t blame the rest of us.
If you have an issue with how we debated, you were welcome to POINT IT OUT as stated more than once in this thread.
So don’t even dare to point fingers and claim that we “drove” you out when you walked out for a simple reason: you are inable to argue the facts. You have yet to refute a single argument that you were presented with and thus you chose to walk out because we did not kiss your ass.
And besides, many times, you were the one to resort to name-calling first. Don’t expect to be treated like a King because you’re the resident Israeli. There are plenty other Israelis here who are much more worthy of the respect that they EARN, fair and square. If you want to be treated better, make an effort, drop the nationalism and hateful generalizations, and stop being such a child.
This is a place to LEARN together. This is NOT a place to agree and kiss each other’s asses, because tolerance is not about that. Tolerance is about learning and accepting the “other” no matter what the differences are, and you don’t show me that at all. Never in your entire time here did you show me that, you provoked the Arab-Muslims and made fun of them, claiming to be humorous and sarcastic. Well, we are very sick of it!
Read the mission statement and the comment policy. We don’t like collectivist ideologies nor racism, and you very often cross the line. Come back when you’re ready to accept Muslims as they are and when you’re ready to accept a good challenge from the people you seemingly despise and consider “the great enemy.”
I have been nothing but insulted by you. You scare me, when you justify the horrific hatred against the majority of us. You scare me, when you claim that most of us want to kill you, when all we’re doing is trying to lead normal lives. You scare me when you insist that you are the victim by refusing to acknowledge the fact that others are being even more abused. You simply scare me Howie and that is not the atmosphere that we are looking for here.
Howie,
I beg you man, consider the tiny little possibility to review your words and mentality without re-commenting here, just take a deep breath, count to ten, watch the movie again with your eyes and ears opened, read your words one more time, and then see why everyone is pissed off!
Consider the tiniest little possibility of that you MIGHT be mistaken, that’s all, don’t act like most Arabs and blame everything on others!
What I see beneath the surface is a lack of understanding all around. It’s important not to talk at each other, but to each other, and if we can at least admit that conflict between Jews and Muslims is not based upon logic, but emotions, we can move forward with some common ground.
Although Esra’a says Jews are relatively safe and secure and well off, the fact of the matter is that, however true this may be, Jews cannot relax or let their guard down. They feel forced to guarantee their own security. (Btw, I’m not singling out Esra’a for any criticism, I’m only increasing the diversity of the pro-Israeli perspective here, which I think she has asked for, by responding directly to her points.)
Why does Malaysia refuse relations with Israel?
Why does Pakistan?
Why does Bahrain?
etc.?
None of these are neighbors of Israel. None of them have ever had any sort of conflict with the Jewish state; nor have any of them have ever reached out to Palestinians in a comprehensive manner to safeguard their human rights.
They act out of institutionalized bias, and you should know that institutionalized bias is a really strong indicator of willingness to commit human rights abuse. Security does not always make people feel relaxed.
Many if not most Jews do not believe that these societies’ rejectionism and hostility toward Israel is motivated out of love or concern for Palestinians since those nations have done nothing to demonstrate true love for Palestinians. Love is shown in much more crucial ways than hostility toward the other side. Yet dozens of nations have purposely injected themselves into the affairs of the Jewish homeland with the aim of helping what-are-perceived-to-be-their-proxies act as conquistadors for Jerusalem, and it’s fostered a subsequent mentality of suspicion in Israelis and Jews — they feel harassed. Security that comes out of constant vigilance doesn’t feel like security. Imagine sleeping with a knife under your bed so nobody will rape you, and as long as you have your knife around, you and your stuff are safe, but the moment you lose it, there could be trouble. How secure you really gonna feel? You see?
Part of the problem is perspective.
I think many Arabs and Muslims see this conflict as one in which there is the Israeli war machine against poorly armed Palestinians, resulting in abuse of Palestinians in whose eyes they see themselves, and it creates anger in them.
Many Jews, on the other hand, see this conflict as one in which Israel’s Jews have been forced to create a war machine to keep rejectionist hoards at bay, and it creates fear in them.
The sad thing is that I have yet to see a critical mass in Arab and Muslim communities take a look at these Israeli boys, the opinion pieces that have been written, the countless protests, and the countless human rights organizations Jews have set up for their Palestinian “enemies,” and say … “you know, there is a hell of a lot of humanity in Israeli culture. Through their abuse, they also show a lot of love and willingness to respect diversity in a divisive region. Let’s try focusing on that for a change and see what we get.” But you all on a concerted international level have never tried to tap into Israeli love — not even those who come from communities that have no organic conflict with Jews.
I’ll tell you this much. Israelis may have taken away a lot, but they also given back a lot to Muslims, whether its free cardiac care to Palestinian kids or free ophthamology to Chechen orphans. Who else treats their adversaries like that? There is so much for the Arab and Muslim worlds to cultivate rather than merely castigate, and I for one am waiting. There is an old saying from the Talmud — it’s much better to be someone who lights candles than one who curses the darkness.
Jews have heard your criticisms. Many of them get your point, but for the most part they’re not listening. It’s not because they’re dumb, racist or unconcerned. It’s because they’re emotional … just like you guys.
Howie isn’t just emotional if you read his posts. We wouldn’t be as harsh in return if it didn’t come off as hateful. These are our families dying there, you know. The people posting here are mostly people with direct connections and here is Howie saying “they started it and they deserve it if Hamas is their govt, because they wanna kill us.”
How would you feel if someone said that about you? How would you feel if you want to reach out to the others, you want to befriend them, you want to listen to them and realize how common your goals are, only to have some of them reply back with how Israeli terrorism is a necessity, not a crime.
And Bahrain doesn’t always refuse the relations with Israel – they WANT to take the first step forward. I’ve written here about how they wanted to open their borders to Israelis and vice versa, we’ve talked to your leaders about this before, but do you really think the Arab world will not frown upon that? First we need to talk, first we need to open up our media outlets to each other, then can we effectively open our borders. We lack connections because of the strong and harsh controversy, not because we hate you and want to kill you.
When a suicide bomber sets his explosives off and kills dozens of innocent people in return, everyone here strongly condemns it.
When an Israeli soldier kills innocent people, all we want is for them to condemn it as well. It’s murder for the most part. Instead we get justifications, and how this was the “right” thing to do. Hundreds of people, apparently, deserve it? How is that fair?
You can’t expect any kind of sane discussions if this is how they wish to push our buttons.
I met some of the best Israelis on this website who helped me gain so much respect for Israel as a country. Trust me they have some of the most extreme views, but you have to understand that feelings must be taken into consideration.
If a Palestinian here for example celebrated and justified the death of Israeli citizens, I would strongly condemn it, and be even more pissed off.
But expect the same if this reaction was taken by an Israeli, if he supports and justifies death and considers it a necessity on his part. We can’t stand aside and watch our families and friends being eliminated for the sake of someone else’s security because it’s not worth it. For peace to happen the answer is not to wipe out one or the other, but a lot of people are treating it that way.
Personally Jewschool has some of the best Israelis because of the way they criticize themselves when a mistaken has been taken, but they also strongly criticize us when needed and that’s perfectly understandable. But when the mistake is on their part, many of the members there (it’s also a group blog) admit it, condemn it, and that’s all we ask for. Howie never, ever did that, because of his extremist mentalities and media-fed paranoia. We are not fans of nationalism because that inevitably comes with a lot of racism.
I’ve seen this video before on abu-Issa’s blog. That’s one hell of an accusation they’re making there while creating the image as if the whole of the IDF’s policy is based on inhumanity. So, non-Israeli’s watching this video can get to the conclusion that this is the way it is in the IDF, whereas almost every Israeli has been or has family in the IDF and, based on their experiences do not recognize it at all. I hate these kind of ‘confessions’ – not for what they say, but because they give a fractured picture of the truth.
This been said, I condemn the use of collective punishment in each and every form – and more: I spit on it. There are situations in where there is no other way and the ‘collective’ gets to be the victim for the actions of a few from its community, but mostly I think Israel’s ‘reasoning’ when using this is wrong – because collective punishment won’t get the people suffering from it turning against those few in their community that created the grounds for this punishment – it just turns people more inside themselves concentrating on the problems/pain/hurt/humiliation this ‘punishment’ brought upon them.
Checkpoints – are necessary (unfortunately) – having lived through the whole Erez Industrial Area period when being under attack from Palestinian extremists and simply ruining it. On the other hand:
in the use of internal checkpoints the negative ‘results’ (people living in open-air prisons within their villages/towns, the sense of humiliation, the depriviation of families being able to visit each other in connecting towns etc.) outweighs the ‘benefits’ (tracking after internal planning of attacks etc.)
There is a list of things Israel should have a much closer look at and turn around their reasoning, people won’t ‘follow’ Israeli thinking (we are attacked you have to do something about your people – eventhough you yourself haven’t done anything and until such time I punish you) that’s a mistake Israel makes.
The video however I don’t give a d-a-m-n for.
I always seem to have the last word. Is that because I’m so good, or what?
tsedek – no you didn’t have the last word. – well I highly agree with your post here – I felt relieved when I read it after some very biased comments here above
by the way I’ll miss Howie here – I hope I’m not the only one..
Just want to introduce myself. My Name is Mike and I just signed up for this great forum.
Take Care,
Addonissz