Take Care,
Addonissz

by the way I’ll miss Howie here – I hope I’m not the only one..

This been said, I condemn the use of collective punishment in each and every form – and more: I spit on it. There are situations in where there is no other way and the ‘collective’ gets to be the victim for the actions of a few from its community, but mostly I think Israel’s ‘reasoning’ when using this is wrong – because collective punishment won’t get the people suffering from it turning against those few in their community that created the grounds for this punishment – it just turns people more inside themselves concentrating on the problems/pain/hurt/humiliation this ‘punishment’ brought upon them.

Checkpoints – are necessary (unfortunately) – having lived through the whole Erez Industrial Area period when being under attack from Palestinian extremists and simply ruining it. On the other hand:
in the use of internal checkpoints the negative ‘results’ (people living in open-air prisons within their villages/towns, the sense of humiliation, the depriviation of families being able to visit each other in connecting towns etc.) outweighs the ‘benefits’ (tracking after internal planning of attacks etc.)

There is a list of things Israel should have a much closer look at and turn around their reasoning, people won’t ‘follow’ Israeli thinking (we are attacked you have to do something about your people – eventhough you yourself haven’t done anything and until such time I punish you) that’s a mistake Israel makes.

The video however I don’t give a d-a-m-n for.

How would you feel if someone said that about you? How would you feel if you want to reach out to the others, you want to befriend them, you want to listen to them and realize how common your goals are, only to have some of them reply back with how Israeli terrorism is a necessity, not a crime.

And Bahrain doesn’t always refuse the relations with Israel – they WANT to take the first step forward. I’ve written here about how they wanted to open their borders to Israelis and vice versa, we’ve talked to your leaders about this before, but do you really think the Arab world will not frown upon that? First we need to talk, first we need to open up our media outlets to each other, then can we effectively open our borders. We lack connections because of the strong and harsh controversy, not because we hate you and want to kill you.

When a suicide bomber sets his explosives off and kills dozens of innocent people in return, everyone here strongly condemns it.

When an Israeli soldier kills innocent people, all we want is for them to condemn it as well. It’s murder for the most part. Instead we get justifications, and how this was the “right” thing to do. Hundreds of people, apparently, deserve it? How is that fair?

You can’t expect any kind of sane discussions if this is how they wish to push our buttons.

I met some of the best Israelis on this website who helped me gain so much respect for Israel as a country. Trust me they have some of the most extreme views, but you have to understand that feelings must be taken into consideration.

If a Palestinian here for example celebrated and justified the death of Israeli citizens, I would strongly condemn it, and be even more pissed off.

But expect the same if this reaction was taken by an Israeli, if he supports and justifies death and considers it a necessity on his part. We can’t stand aside and watch our families and friends being eliminated for the sake of someone else’s security because it’s not worth it. For peace to happen the answer is not to wipe out one or the other, but a lot of people are treating it that way.

Personally Jewschool has some of the best Israelis because of the way they criticize themselves when a mistaken has been taken, but they also strongly criticize us when needed and that’s perfectly understandable. But when the mistake is on their part, many of the members there (it’s also a group blog) admit it, condemn it, and that’s all we ask for. Howie never, ever did that, because of his extremist mentalities and media-fed paranoia. We are not fans of nationalism because that inevitably comes with a lot of racism.

Although Esra’a says Jews are relatively safe and secure and well off, the fact of the matter is that, however true this may be, Jews cannot relax or let their guard down. They feel forced to guarantee their own security. (Btw, I’m not singling out Esra’a for any criticism, I’m only increasing the diversity of the pro-Israeli perspective here, which I think she has asked for, by responding directly to her points.)

Why does Malaysia refuse relations with Israel?
Why does Pakistan?
Why does Bahrain?
etc.?

None of these are neighbors of Israel. None of them have ever had any sort of conflict with the Jewish state; nor have any of them have ever reached out to Palestinians in a comprehensive manner to safeguard their human rights.

They act out of institutionalized bias, and you should know that institutionalized bias is a really strong indicator of willingness to commit human rights abuse. Security does not always make people feel relaxed.

Many if not most Jews do not believe that these societies’ rejectionism and hostility toward Israel is motivated out of love or concern for Palestinians since those nations have done nothing to demonstrate true love for Palestinians. Love is shown in much more crucial ways than hostility toward the other side. Yet dozens of nations have purposely injected themselves into the affairs of the Jewish homeland with the aim of helping what-are-perceived-to-be-their-proxies act as conquistadors for Jerusalem, and it’s fostered a subsequent mentality of suspicion in Israelis and Jews — they feel harassed. Security that comes out of constant vigilance doesn’t feel like security. Imagine sleeping with a knife under your bed so nobody will rape you, and as long as you have your knife around, you and your stuff are safe, but the moment you lose it, there could be trouble. How secure you really gonna feel? You see?

Part of the problem is perspective.

I think many Arabs and Muslims see this conflict as one in which there is the Israeli war machine against poorly armed Palestinians, resulting in abuse of Palestinians in whose eyes they see themselves, and it creates anger in them.

Many Jews, on the other hand, see this conflict as one in which Israel’s Jews have been forced to create a war machine to keep rejectionist hoards at bay, and it creates fear in them.

The sad thing is that I have yet to see a critical mass in Arab and Muslim communities take a look at these Israeli boys, the opinion pieces that have been written, the countless protests, and the countless human rights organizations Jews have set up for their Palestinian “enemies,” and say … “you know, there is a hell of a lot of humanity in Israeli culture. Through their abuse, they also show a lot of love and willingness to respect diversity in a divisive region. Let’s try focusing on that for a change and see what we get.” But you all on a concerted international level have never tried to tap into Israeli love — not even those who come from communities that have no organic conflict with Jews.

I’ll tell you this much. Israelis may have taken away a lot, but they also given back a lot to Muslims, whether its free cardiac care to Palestinian kids or free ophthamology to Chechen orphans. Who else treats their adversaries like that? There is so much for the Arab and Muslim worlds to cultivate rather than merely castigate, and I for one am waiting. There is an old saying from the Talmud — it’s much better to be someone who lights candles than one who curses the darkness.

Jews have heard your criticisms. Many of them get your point, but for the most part they’re not listening. It’s not because they’re dumb, racist or unconcerned. It’s because they’re emotional … just like you guys.

Consider the tiniest little possibility of that you MIGHT be mistaken, that’s all, don’t act like most Arabs and blame everything on others!

If you have an issue with how we debated, you were welcome to POINT IT OUT as stated more than once in this thread.

So don’t even dare to point fingers and claim that we “drove” you out when you walked out for a simple reason: you are inable to argue the facts. You have yet to refute a single argument that you were presented with and thus you chose to walk out because we did not kiss your ass.

And besides, many times, you were the one to resort to name-calling first. Don’t expect to be treated like a King because you’re the resident Israeli. There are plenty other Israelis here who are much more worthy of the respect that they EARN, fair and square. If you want to be treated better, make an effort, drop the nationalism and hateful generalizations, and stop being such a child.

This is a place to LEARN together. This is NOT a place to agree and kiss each other’s asses, because tolerance is not about that. Tolerance is about learning and accepting the “other” no matter what the differences are, and you don’t show me that at all. Never in your entire time here did you show me that, you provoked the Arab-Muslims and made fun of them, claiming to be humorous and sarcastic. Well, we are very sick of it!

Read the mission statement and the comment policy. We don’t like collectivist ideologies nor racism, and you very often cross the line. Come back when you’re ready to accept Muslims as they are and when you’re ready to accept a good challenge from the people you seemingly despise and consider “the great enemy.”

I have been nothing but insulted by you. You scare me, when you justify the horrific hatred against the majority of us. You scare me, when you claim that most of us want to kill you, when all we’re doing is trying to lead normal lives. You scare me when you insist that you are the victim by refusing to acknowledge the fact that others are being even more abused. You simply scare me Howie and that is not the atmosphere that we are looking for here.

The pattern has always been the same…agree or be personally attacked…just like the childish, immature, repulsive remarks that have been made here. Classic pattern for people who don’t abide dissent…only pretend are actually are exactly like the tyrants they say they resent.

Be a good little Jew like Leah…OK Howie?

I am sorry I wasted my time here as I can now clearly see this is not about discussion, but classic dictitorial mind control, just what you proport to complain about.

This is my last comment…khlas…done with you guys…

I don’t see a reason to claim that you are constantly the victim – there ARE Palestinians willing to work on this, there ARE other Arabs willing to work on this, but others push them away with ultra-Zionist mentalities.

Zionism today means a whole different thing than it used to and it’s mostly associated with Israeli nationalism. So when others say anti-Zionist it’s not accurately applied for 2 main reasons:

1) Not all of us who disagree with Israel are anti-Semites who want you dead. Hell, there are Arab Jews themselves who disagree with Israeli policies as well as various different Israelis, such as the ones above, who disagree with Israeli policies. That makes them people with opinions. Not liars, or propagandists, or people who want you dead. Simply people with opinions who deserve and require the same rights that you have and take for granted. Instead of putting those rights to good use you choose to play the victim of worldwide hatred as you describe it.

2) Not all of us who disagree with Israeli polices don’t approve of its existence. There are many Zionist Muslims who agree with the principles of traditional Zionism who actually acknowledge the right for Israel to exist as the “Kingdom of Jews.” However we have every right to disagree with its current policies and the human rights abuses which does NOT make us anti-Zionists.

People are people. They want to live and they have the right to life just as much as you do. When you claim that they hate you – find the source of that hatred, and see what’s wrong on your part. What were their last resorts and what can you do to appease the situation? Even if you find them entirely wrong and unfair, as the much stronger nation you have a duty to aid. How else do you expect to maintain hope? Follow Leah’s example and set a positive, hopeful example for your people rather than furthering the gap with this “they want me dead & they hate me” mentality.

If you find this conversation uncomfortable, and if you think we are bullying you – go ahead and say it, and we will sort this out in a different manner. We are harsh because we are not only outraged, but severely insulted by what you have been saying throughout this thread. Honestly, if you want to keep this up, make an effort to refute the arguments, otherwise drop the nationalist mentality which we do not wish to promote here. People are people regardless of their nationalities and belief systems, so when you make this about “me” vs. “all of them,” that is not only painfully incorrect but also painfully dangerous. And future generations will be the ones who are going to pay this heavy price – do you really want to promote this idea? That it’s impossible to reason with them because they hate your guts? That the majority want to kill you? That they live in a culture of hatred because a few schools promoted suicide bombing to kids? For God’s sake, you have an entire MILITARY that is required to carry out deadlier tactics! One of the strongest military in the world, funded and unconditionally supported by the richest nation in the world, with the most influential media outlets on the planet! You have the upper hand, yet you claim to be the victim. Explain!

Why not just admit the error, so that others admit their errors, and a culture of interfaith and understanding can be born rather than a rat race of a nasty PR war?