Human Rights Report in Saudi Arabia
May 24th, 2007The human rights in Saudi Arabia released a report just recently with details of the rights and violations happening here in the kingdom, I just got this from Arab News.
“The report sums up the suffering of at least two generations. The adversity might affect a third generation if the report’s recommendations aren’t implemented immediately,”
The report tackled human rights issues in the Kingdom, which included violations of the rights of women, prisoners and workers as well as injustices in law courts, discrimination against non-Saudis and forced confessions from those detained by the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.
The report further noted that domestic violence had reached an alarming level and called for an end to the requirement of male guardians for women and the need for male approval in all matters involving women.
“The NSHR shouldn’t be content with publishing the report and then archiving it,” said Walid Al-Hilal, a columnist writing in the Al-Yaum newspaper. “It has to outline and execute an extensive media plan to make the most of issuing such a study.” Umm Yousra, a 47-year-old single mother of six daughters, said she repeatedly suffers from the current system of male guardianship.
Many people are skeptical about the progress the human rights will achieve in reaching their goals, actually our goals, knowing our rigid society and how hard it is to implement new laws especially in these social matters mentioned.
I have to say that there has been a change recently, people are discussing these issues more openly in the media and newspapers although it has always been considered taboo and there are a lot who oppose these changes within the society.
Saudi Arabia has been under the microscope lately, I believe that they are pressured in to opening up to improve their image in front of the rest of the world who define Saudis as terrorists. It is about time we establish our rights here in the kingdom, we will face a lot of rejection but nothing comes easy these days we have to stand for our rights.
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That was SHOCKING!
Our idea of Saudia in Iran is:
1) Rich people.
2) Clean country.
3) Beutiful cities.
…
I never thought it would be like what you said ! i’m just shocked.
Pouyan, what was shocking exactly?
The fact that not all saudi’s are rich? most of them definately are not.
What do you mean by clean country? windex clean? or corruption and all that?
We do have nice cities, but what is beauty without freedom?
Rasha, while I am not shocked, I have to say that Saudi Arabia does seem a lot different and even me in Bahrain, a neighboring country, couldn’t understand it at all until I actually visited. I think it’s one of those countries that you simply can’t understand if you haven’t been there. With all the coverage it gets worldwide, it’s really hard to know what to expect.
You know as children, my sister and I used to cry very often when we had to go to Saudi, we had nightmares about old men marrying us there. For example when some family members want us to oblige to the rules, they’d say “go wear your pajamas now! Unless you want to live in SAUDI!” and we’d quickly be so afraid. Can you believe it, that to us it was the biggest threat in the world to live in such a country? And we’re 45 minutes away!
It was both the stories we heard, and also by seeing how our families lived there, that led us to this misguided mentality. Media really does have a huge influence especially on youth. It was more media outlets than reality that led us to think this way.
Growing up though I could certainly feel the positive change that has happened there… the Jeddah I knew 10 years go definitely isn’t the Jeddah I know now.
Saudi changed dramatically and I think it deserves some optimism. I’m hopeful for its future and its youth, especially knowing that there are passionate people like you trying to make it work.
I agree with you in that there is a big change as you mentioned in JEDDAH (in the western province)!
We in Riyadh always joke about Jeddah being outside of Saudi Arabia, even Alkhobar (eastern province) is not too bad.
When I write I mean mostly the capital Riyadh and other areas such as Alqaseem, and mostly every where else excluding Jeddah.
I have been to Jeddah, other than it being overcrowded it is liberal compared to Riyadh, they have restaurants where I have seen men and women sit together without any harassments.
I have seen women smoke there in public although this is a definite no.. no. They would call you a slut and drag you to the police station if you smoked in a public area in Riyadh!
Alot of women do not cover their faces in Jeddah and they are not harassed by the religious police.
They also have musical concerts in Jeddah while it is haram and forbidden in Riyadh.
Jeddah (Alhijaz) is much liberal than other cities as I mentioned in a previous blog because Alhijaz is mostly of Saudis who originally came from neighboring countries that is why they are open minded. I read once that Riyadh being the capital of Saudi Arabia where Makkah is should always have strict rules and will always have the biggest religious center because it influences other muslim countries.
I do sound so pessimistic most of the time.. that is from what I see in my day to day life.
When I go to a mall here in Riyadh I feel so alienated because I do not cover my face or wear a abaya on my head.. and people look at me as if I am going shopping in a bikini! it is hard feeling alienated in your own country.
I second what rasha has said… would like to add that even if Jeddah is more liberal. We have a major problem in our judicial women all over, esp. concerning women.
others who are terrorists zealots. Now the majority of the people are simple bedouins, who are like the red-neck americans. Then there are the educated, dedicated and open-minded people who want to make a difference and if you speak out then you are silenced. Ofcourse then you have what I like to call the people who are deluded, who know things are bad and yet are in denial.
You are not pessimistic, but a realist.
Our government played a dangerous game when it was first formed. At that time, they needed the religious figures on their side and so gave them alot of power. That grew and I must admit more in King Fahad era. Yes ,we have oil, and pouyan you may think we are all rich but sadly no. We have a alot of corruption and lets just say the divide between the rich and poor is becoming great. We have a high rate of unemployment, young men and women graduate and dont have any jobs.
What happened? with the Religious Zealots let loose and brainwashing . Things turned on the government.
Now you have some religious mufti’s on the government payroll.
As Esraa pointed out, things have changed and will continue to do so. Simply this place is a pot and its boiling with alot of injustice, poor people, disillusionment, add to it strong traditions and culture that has paralysed us in the past. The end result?! I hope is better unless the religious extremist take over. LOL! God! now that is a Pessimist!!
WOW !!!!!!
I AM JUST SHOCKED (MORE!)! IT’S LIKE YOU HIT ME IN THE HEAD WITH A BASEBALL BAT!
I couldn’t even believe it’s like that! When Iranians come back from Mecca and Medinah, they don’t mention such things!!
Rasha and Wafa, I can’t believe what I’m reading, let me pinpoint some shocking things you and wafa said:
Rasha said:
you mean that it’s forbidden for men and women to sit together? I mean is it against the law or what? so what do the couples do? what does the youth people do? you mean it’s forbidden to eat something with your boy/girl friend(s) at a coffeshop or so?
Rasha said:
Is it also against the law or what? people would call you a slut that easily just because you smoke?! God I KNEW NOTHING!
Rasha Said:
you have some kind of police as religious police? It’s not that we don’t have something like that here, but in Tehran (Capital city) you don’t often see them on the street! they make you to cover your faces? is it the same for foreigners and tourists?
Wafa said:
What you said is exactly whats happening here! the rich get richer and poor get more poor, we are sailing to a point when there’ll be no one classified as “middle class”! They are building a lot of different types of universitys -Private, Public, Online, Virtual, …- but there’s not job offers for graduated students!
I was really surprised of what I read.
I suggest you come to Iran and see whats going on here, at least we both (actually there’s three of us!) live in an what so called “Islamic Country”! be my guest and come over.
First of all I would like to great you Wafa, you and I go way back.. we have similar lives or parallel lives as you would put it.
Pouyan, I think we do have so much in common as you mentioned..
I am shocked because you thought Saudi Arabia was an open country!
What do you mean girl/boy friend? We have no such thing in saudi society, but our youths tend to find away, mostly on the phone or would meet for a few seconds in a public place..etc. Any kind of relationship outside marriage is forbidden in this country.
Smoking for women is prohibited.
I remember when Saudi women tried to drive in 1991, they were put in a big cell and were called whores in mosques! (excuse my language) for months..
I asked one of these ladies ten years after the incident if it was worth it. She answered without hesitation that is was not worth it. These fundamentalists were able to destroy their lives at that time, for what? nothing. Women still can not drive sixsteen years later!
In a restaurants, only relatives can sit together (brother/sister or husband/wife) it is better to carry an I.D all the time as proof.
By the way Wafa.. this is the first time I read or hear someone compare beduins to red-necks!
red-necks?? ignorance?
We have a very large number of these…
I think she is comparing them to the way they are perceived… not by the fact that they are actually similar.
Now here’s a funny thought…
A red-neck Bedouin. Personally I would love to meet one.
when I was in the States and met some in the mid west.. I thought to myself they remind me of our bedouins. Ignorance they share, as well as the belief of living in what they percieve as the best country in the world. Maybe with the americans, I would agree on the last part. LOL, or do they with Bush!?!?
Pouyan, your country changed with the islamic revolution? how was it with the Shah? compared it to now?
I believe a similar report was published last year. Is that the case that this is now an annual thing? I hope it is and I hope it helps to make a difference and inspire change.
Wafa,
I’ll write a new post about revolution. it may answer a lot of your questions.
Just wanted to congratulate you three for carrying this dialogue on the net.
I have lived and worked in Saudi land as a Western foreigner for the past 8 years and I am still shocked at the sight of women covered from head to toe in black — an obvious symbol of suppression — I am shocked by the lack of choices by the (mis)-use of what should be private faith, imposed en masse, by the eagerness with which those who make ‘the system’ unlivable prevent any breath of new thought… I am shocked to see to what extent life’s needs are denied, ‘life’ itself (that generous ‘yes’) is distorted by what I see as an obsessive preocupation with ‘no’, with ‘death’ in all its negative shapes. I think this country is changing though and will change dramatically for the better when women’s voices will be ‘accepted’. Then, women will learn to accept themselves more fully and they will be able to empower and educate others (their own sons and daughters, for a start).
Lamer,
I have to clear something.. a woman covering herself does not mean that she is a symbol of suppression!!
I have seen so many women who cover in public but are succesful in what ever profession they work in, I have seen opinionated and strong women who cover from head to toe.
Now, what bugs me is the lack of human rights ( women working, studying, traveling, driving, owning businesses, renting apartments, opening acounts for our chidren, putting our children to schools, having a surgery done to a female or her child…etc without a male guardian’s approval plus taking decisions in our own life as individuals.
I really don’t mind at all if they open up and let people choose and do what suits them. if a woman wants to cover from head to toe.. why shouldn’t she? if that is what she believes in.. not because it has been imposed upon her.
while having her full rights as a human being.
That is all I ask for.. not to inforce something I don’t believe in just because you might.
Yes, I agree, a woman should cover herelf if she wants to, as long as she has a real choice. And just how do we make choices? How do we come to believe in what we believe? Through what has been fed to us since we were very young, through ‘copying’ others, through conforming or on the contrary through affirming our difference to overcome adversity…if we can affirm our difference, that is…if the society and system we live in allows for that… So, choice and freedom are always, always limited and are always defined in difference — “I am different than you, therefore I am”. Is this a society that allows for difference? Any ’system’ casts away difference and marginalizes minorities. But some systems are more open than others, they can be cracked from inside. It happens that here women are still viewed as ‘others’, they are valued in certain roles but not in others, they are valued in certain ‘clothes’ but not in others — they are not valued in their integrity and therefore are constantly ’saved’ from themselves. To me, the forced covering (or uncovering, for that matter) is the tip of the iceberg. I’ve lived in to many different cultures, not to be in love with humanity and not to believe that none of us is wrong in what we choose to believe and follow, as long as we worship the forces of life. Anyway, got to go now.
Hi,
I was in Riyadh it’s a great place, people live in compound and its the fiesta!!! parties and fun.
I like that country and expats are really well paid since locals are not enough educaded to do the job in a good way.
See u in a mall in the single area
shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus
Freeman, I actually consider it a shame that expats always have more rights and better opportunities than the locals who actually deserve these types of jobs. It’s not that they are incapable. Even here in Bahrain we have similar issues… expats live in peace and luxury while many citizens are unemployed with some living under $100 per month (and here that is considered extreme poverty; with that amount of money nothing can be done at all.)
I certainly don’t mind expats – but an excess amount of them, and for businesses to actually only target them for employment/opportunities, is very damaging.
Freeman is so right.. Foreigners in Saudi Arabia have the best living conditions, they live in secure isolated compounds equiped with all the facilities they need from swimming pools to bars and booz..etc.
We recruited many expats in the 80’s because we needed them then, but at the moment we do have Saudis working in almost all the fields; doctors.. engineers.. etc. so it is a shame when I see a hard working saudi taking half the salary of a foreigner doing the same job with the same qualifications!
Ladies,
I agree, there are luxurious conditions for expats here in Saudi BECAUSE otherwise NO ONE would come here and NO ONE would resist in this environment more than a few months. With these being said though, it is not easy and the lure of the compounds and the booz (mind you, I don’t drink) would quickly fade away. And then what’s left? Here’s my persepctive, and pls. understand, this is a woman’s perspective: if I didn’t work on an ‘island’ in Riyadh which is ran mostly by democratic laws, if I didn’t love my work so much, if I didn’t have my husband with me, if I didn’t have MANY chances to get out of those sad golden cage compounds, deadening palace-like malls and the black and white crowds whom I am not supposed to approach even if I’d love to, in short, if I didn’t have numerous opportunities to venture out of KSA, for the love of God, I wouldn’t want to waste my life here, no matter the pay! For you, this is your home and every home is tragically beautiful. But it’s one of those homes that a woman desperately and frequently needs to leave and then desperately needs to change, and then it’s so frustarting to realize that you, ‘the woman in the house’, you are given so little power to change things!
I don’t think Freeman is right. He seems too young in his head to understand that the core of the discussion here was human rights in Saudi Arabia from the perspective of the ones who need those rights the most: women. After living here and in so many other parts of the world for so many years, I don’t think ‘We’ (the expats) are the problem. ‘We’ are needed and in many instances the expats are treated (at least verbally) by Saudis as if we were all servants — even my friend who is a female dentist receives this treatment from many Saudis and she is now considering taking on teaching as a new job… We are all ’servants’ when we work, it would be nice to understand work as a service we do to ourselves. I do not believe the problem here are the expats — it’s sad, but seems to be the only diversity this country can afford right now. The HUGE problem arises when salaries are based on the country of origin and color of the employee, rather than based on the type and quality of work, number of hours etc. And this is a racist, mysoginistic society with wonderful individuals full of potential. I know it sounds very ‘flower power’ but it’s true: there is an undercurrent of hate — it even resurfaced in this dialogue when Rasha writes ‘you’ or ‘expats’ with rage. But I think we are in this together. We are different, you and I, but what’s boiling is not this ‘we’, what’s boiling is the closure that keeps the ‘you’ and “I’ separated (or the ‘he’ and ’she’ segregated, I should say).
HI again,
I’ll be short I promise. A few points I’d like to underline and then I will close my mouth and listen to what others have to say.
The problems I see here in Saudi are inherent in the political system and the values supported by the local culture. These areas have to be questioned carefully before locals decide to blame foreigners for taking their jobs or blaming others for intruding cultural and religious traditions.
‘Expats working for Saudis’ was an objective need and continues to be to this date because the Saudi culture has incorporated this value: expats serve the Saudis and Saudis like to be served (it’s the Master Slave logic in 21st century version).
There are cohorts of low class foreign workers cleaning the floors for the Saudis on very low wages and in harsh conditions. Still, it’s better than in their own countries and they’re ready to serve you with their lives, because in fact, they do have the work discipline and they need to feed babies at home.
There are cohorts of foreign mades to serve the Saudis who treat them badly withhold their salaries and in this way, show children in their families that work is humiliating.
There are cohorts of middle class foreign workers (nurses, teachers, tutors…) who serve the Saudis, but that’s because only half of this country is allowed to function and because many fathers and husbands wouldn’t like to see women in their families ‘exposed’ in unsegregated public spaces.
There are cohorts of doctors, engeneers, architects, you name it because you don’t have enough well trained Saudis to fill those professions since only half of the country is supported by the government (young men are sent abroad tomstudy on governmental money, women are not).
There are many many foreign companies encouraged to establish business here because they have to have a Saudi sponsor and pay this royalty a huge amount of money. These companies bring their own employees here who wouldn’t come in such a restrictive and unsecure environment if they weren’t paid well and if they weren’t garanteed security.
Where are you in this picture ?! Under a black veil ?! Where is your voice? On TV? In the newspapers? I think not. Your voice is here on the net, though. How many women in Saudi do you think have access to the internet and have the courage, openess and command of the language needed to speak up? I don’t know. Do you?
I can’t believe I shut everybody’s mouth up! Soooorrrry! This is supposed to be YOUR site (MidEast Youth), so I’ll leave, hoping that you (still) believe in true dialogue and in honest exchanges. Before ‘disactivating’ my voice, I would like to let you know about a wonderful book written by an Iranian woman who lived through the ‘revolution’ and who chose to stay and work in Iran many years after that. She is currently a professor of literature in an American university. The book is — and hopefully will continue to be — available in Jarir bookstores – Riyadh (isn’t this already outstanding?):
Azar Nafisi’s “Reading Lolita in Teheran”. It is an extraordinary personal and historical testimony… something worth taking into consideration by all those hoping for social change in the region. A-Dieu!
((I have been to Jeddah, other than it being overcrowded it is liberal compared to Riyadh, they have restaurants where I have seen men and women sit together without any harassments.
I have seen women smoke there in public although this is a definite no.. no. They would call you a slut and drag you to the police station if you smoked in a public area in Riyadh!
Alot of women do not cover their faces in Jeddah and they are not harassed by the religious police.
They also have musical concerts in Jeddah while it is haram and forbidden in Riyadh. ))
Mrs. Rasha
All you want from a civilized country to do such thing!!
All you want is to attend concerts??
You are suppose to criticize the way gov. treat criminals and theives not the way people want to live.
I really like the way we live
Dear Lamer,
by the way.. I just wrote you a very long reply and lost it.. god help me I’m writing it all over again .
I have just seen your comments and that is why I did not respond earlier, sorry for that dear
1st, I would like to assure you that I have no anger or rage as you have mentioned towards any foreigner living in this country or otherwise.
I was just trying to make a point about Saudi’s who might have the same educational level as a foreigner, yet he/she has a much lower salary.
You are living in a cozy little island in the middle of a dessert, but you know something.. this desert has lovely hidden treasures and secrets that you have to look a little bit closer to actually see.. and about the black and white people you see when you go out.. this is just one layer, I assure you.. there is so much more underneath that.
People here may look the same to you that is because you live in a bubble within the community, you mentioned it your self.. you find us unapproachable. I disagree with you. Try to talk to a Saudi Lady and don’t be afraid to. I do see foreigners living here in clusters not wanting to mingle with Saudi’s, I don’t blame you for being afraid of the unexpected but believe me, we do not bite.
About women in Saudi Arabia, I wrote a blog about it.. I agree with you. We are being treated as 2nd hand citizens with the least rights in our own country. We are taking baby steps and that is a beginning. Do not compare our achievement with the west. Compare where we are now from where we were 50 years back.
I can’t agree with you more.. I have an arab friend who was very hard working yet his contract was not renewed because his employer wanted a blonder looking guy (Westerner)
I and everyone like me should look into my/your reflection in the mirror and be honest about what I/you see. I should start with me then will I be able to help those who are around me.
I never said that you expats are the problem! We needed you more in the past than we do now! We didn’t have any doctors, engineers, nurses… etc
but now Saudi’s are starting to cover all these fields including women (slowly but devotedly I assure you which I consider an achievement.
I do criticise Saudi society alot because I want things to get better for us. I don’t mean to show disrespect but it’s the time for us to wake up and think about the future.. I would love for my kids to have a better life.
About the slavery here, I agree with you. it does exist (Esra’a wrote a blog about it here in MEY) and actions are being taken by ministry of labour headed by Dr. AlQusaby who has been fighting for this cause (Rights for foreign employees) everything works in slow motion here.. but at least we are starting to tackle these matters.
Now.. to tackle the last part of your accusations about me PERSONALLY.
Do you know anything about me? no?
I don’t have to go on TV or be a public figure to be heard or to serve my country the way I see fit!
I work in the medical field, I deal with patients every day.. I deal with the real Saudi people.. I care for them and I listen (sometimes I think they mistake me for being a psycho-analyst!)I take away the pain when I can.
I have seen women and children being abused either emotionally or even physically! at a time in my life I even treated bedwins.. I try to educate my patients in health and child care. I now treat children only.
I will be teaching college students next year.. so I do think my voice is being heard ..
You really should not categorize me.. you don’t know anything about me!
Dear tareeeq@gmail.com..
That is because you are a man living in a MAN’s WORLD!!!
Read my blog on, Saudi women.. what rights? and other stuff I wrote about Saudi Arabia to know what I am talking about
I chose to discuss women .. if you would like to discuss other matters.. be my guest!
lamer, I could not help but wonder have you mingled in our society?
I have many non-saudi friends. what makes you think you cant approach saudi woman?
A couple of points..
I know that when foreigners come to work thay have orienatation and they are told the most scary things about us.. dont approach them, don’t, don’t, don’t… that one of my friends said I thought you were all monsters!! LOL.
Here is a culture and society and deep traditions that my dear you will never understand. Some are wrong, some need adjustment, some are good. We know that and we are changing it in our own time.
Any history of a country change comes and we are only 100 years of age.
To educate the number of saudi’s needed is immense. We have a come a long way. 50 years ago ppl were living in mud houses and tents! you talk about and compare us to other countries that have been developed a long time ago.
About salaries based on country of passport is wrong. But also to tempt the many workers to come they give them a salary to match the living style in their own country. Its more expensive to live in Canada for example than the far east. Many come here for the untaxable money. Many of my friends single and married have told me that. So its not that “expats” serve us. We Pay them a good sum to come and work. I am a working woman And I serve my country and its people. Some other issues rasha has touched on and I will not.
By many of your comments I know that you have not sat with saudis and mingled so i will not comment. its to hilarious!
You do live in a bubble and really don’t know how and what we are.
WOMEN ARE NOT SENT ABROAD TO STUDY BY THE GOVERNMENT??!? who told you that?!? THEY ARE MY DEAR and I am one of them!
Our problems are general its is both lack of rights both for women and men.
The positive thing is we are changing and we know that.
We have started to question and criticise ourselves and that is a step in the right direction.
You “Expats” are not the problem nor are you in anyway blamed. I know neither rasha or esraa meant that.
What I do see is that an expat living in saudi who has not mingled and assumes to know us!
A rather interesting incident happened to me and a friend (both saudi). we were in the supermarket and as usual with our trolleys commenting and talking loudly in english, not covered and there was 2 gentlemen from north America were looking at us and staring shocked. I looked and flashed a smile and continued my shopping. They approached us and asked us “excuse me, but are you saudi?” ” I laughed and replied “sure 100%”
he commented on our command of the english lang. and our way.
It made me smile cause many “expats” think we are dumb and ignorant and suppressed.
We have our share of ignorance like every country. We have our problems like many countries. But we are changing.
Mrs. Rasha
most of my post have been cut by the administrator (j u s t like our Dectators)
no difference !!
Even my thought, you didn’t get.
I’m not against your rights, which you claim, that you want or dream of
We are here. Yes here, in Saudi Arabia The Mecca of all Muslims
We are not suppose to follow the Americans or the Japanese
We are suppose to have our own characteristic
We are suppose to be like models for other Muslims. Ok you want us to be modern and civilized in all fields that’s it ,we want this BUT We ARE SUPPOSE TO HAVE OUR Personality
We are not required to be a copy from here and there. Don’t thing that we want women to be in houses. Rather than, we want them to be in hospitals, schools and in all field (BUT SEPARATE FROM MALE)
Dear Wafa,
There is nothing more I wish right now than to be proven wrong by all Saudi women
You do live in a bubble and really don’t know how and what we are.
WOMEN ARE NOT SENT ABROAD TO STUDY BY THE GOVERNMENT??!? who told you that?!? THEY ARE MY DEAR and I am one of them!
Our problems are general its is both lack of rights both for women and men.
The positive thing is we are changing and we know that.
We have started to question and criticise ourselves and that is a step in the right direction.
You “Expats†are not the problem nor are you in anyway blamed. I know neither rasha or esraa meant that.
What I do see is that an expat living in saudi who has not mingled and assumes to know us!
A rather interesting incident happened to me and a friend (both saudi). we were in the supermarket and as usual with our trolleys commenting and talking loudly in english, not covered and there was 2 gentlemen from north America were looking at us and staring shocked. I looked and flashed a smile and continued my shopping. They approached us and asked us “excuse me, but are you saudi?††I laughed and replied “sure 100%â€
he commented on our command of the english lang. and our way.
It made me smile cause many “expats†think we are dumb and ignorant and suppressed.
Quicktags:
Dear Wafa,
You say “We have our share of ignorance like every country. We have our problems like many countries. But we are changing.”
And I say: There is nothing more I wish right now than to be proven wrong by all Saudi women
The thing is, I want to be proven wrong by Saudi men too! I want to be proven wrong by every person in the street in Riyadh, not in Jeddah and not in Dammam. I’d love that — it would mean that the whole world has moved forward and I was just left behind.
You say that by many of my comments you know that I have not sat with Saudis and that I live in a bubble.
I have sat with Saudis, some of whom where fine, educated, open-minded women like you. I have sat with Saudi men at clandestine parties and talked with them for hours, that’s first hand info that I’m not going to share here unless I am provoked. I’ve worked with Saudi kids as well.
Yet, it is true, Wafa, I live in a bubble (now what does that say, not about me, but about the predominant situation and views in this system of thought in which we both happen to mingle?).
Now the fact that I cannot approach the black and white crowds was a poetic way of looking at Saudis from a bird’s eye’s. I can be more precise, yet still, poetic: 1) if I don’t see someone’s face, and it looks like there are sooooooo many of those ones here, it is hard for me to approach them, let alone to trust anything they might be saying to me in an open space; and 2) if I cannot be invited to, nor invite women to my house because, for instance my husband is around, then…
Wafa, don’t take any of the things I say as an attack against you. It’s an attack against a closure, a system of thought that is ancient and has actually nothing to do with you.
ooops, could you pls diconsider my previous message? I will try sending the proper thing! I copied and paste the wrong stuff. Patience!
Here is what I meant to write:
Dear Wafa,
You say “We have our share of ignorance like every country. We have our problems like many countries. But we are changing.â€
And I say: There is nothing more I wish right now than to be proven wrong by all Saudi women The thing is, I want to be proven wrong by Saudi men too! I want to be proven wrong by every person in the street in Riyadh, not in Jeddah and not in Dammam. I’d love that — it would mean that the whole world has moved forward and I was just left behind.
You say that by many of my comments you know that I have not sat with Saudis and that I live in a bubble.
I have sat with Saudis, some of whom where fine, educated, open-minded women like you. I have sat with Saudi men at clandestine parties and talked with them for hours, that’s first hand info that I’m not going to share here unless I am provoked. I’ve worked with Saudi kids as well.
Yet, it is true, Wafa, I live in a bubble (now what does that say, not about me, but about the predominant situation and views in this system of thought in which we both happen to mingle?).
Now the fact that I cannot approach the black and white crowds was a poetic way of looking at Saudis from a bird’s eye’s. I can be more precise, yet still, poetic: 1) if I don’t see someone’s face, and it looks like there are sooooooo many of those ones here, it is hard for me to approach them, let alone to trust anything they might be saying to me in an open space; and 2) if I cannot be invited to, nor invite women to my house because, for instance my husband is around, then…
Wafa, don’t take any of the things I say as an attack against you. It’s an attack against a closure, a system of thought that is ancient and has actually nothing to do with you.
Wafa,
I’m starting my work schedule right now and can’t reply properly but …what’s there to reply other that, I think we are on the same side of the symbolic battle camp. Go, girl!
RASHA,
I’m in such a hurry! My apologies for the messed up messages and addressees. The immediately previous message was in fact for you (I did my best to reply to Wafa just before that).
Tareeq,
Your posts weren’t deleted by the administrators like you claimed. They were spammed because you don’t write a name in the “name” slot, and instead you put your e-mail, so wordpress recognizes this as “spam.” I have to manually de-spam it each time this occurs.
Please don’t do this in the future if you wish to see your comments actually appear on this website like it normally would be if you bothered reading the “e-mail” slot and “name” slot while realizing the fact that both are actually quite different.
It hasn’t been deleted ! What’s up!
Half of my comment was posted and the other was ,was what?! was not recognized as a post??
MY POST HAVE BEEN CUT CUT CUT ((cant you see))
Tareeq,
Your posts aren’t important enough for us to censor. We never delete or alter any posts. Stop whining about censorship when it is in fact a mere technical problem, and start putting your actual NAME in the NAME slot like NORMAL commenters do, and not your e-mail, which would automatically file it under “spam!”
Can you please understand and comply with this simple rule, so that we don’t have to go through the entire spam list and de-spam your comments? It’s not much to ask for, seriously!
Tareeq,
It seems you are not getting the point here..
I never sayed that we should copy the west/east … I actually made a point of mentioning that.. (PLEASE READ CAREFULLY WHAT I WRITE BEFORE CRITICISING!!)
We are affected by the west wether we like it or not! We have progressed and advanced by learning from their experiences and technology
So both of us agree on that!
Do you think we are a model for all muslims?? you must be kidding me?
This is what you watch and listen to in schools or in our Saudi T.V !
Look around you.. I mean really look at society from different aspects and levels. When you are honest about your self and what you see.. come talk to me. You might be too naive(that’s a nother matter)
What benifits did we get from segrigation between men and women ?or are you just repeating what you were taught in kindergarden?
I will emphasize that I am raising this issue within the boundries of ISLAM.
A friend of mine told me that when he came to Makkah he was shocked when he saw unveiled women ( Why did you think that he was surprised- come on I want you to think!)
Not long time ago I was listening to the radio for a very famous program( something and percent 78% l’m not sure)
The studies PROOF that when ever you get them away from each other (m/f) they will be more productive more in EVERYTHING (and that whats the American say- according to recent researches.) PLEASE DON”T SAY THE ARE “too naive” too.
what do you consider a male working with you in a hospital?
why?
and how do you deal with him?
Have you ever been abused by any male?
(( please don’t look down toward wy thoughts- I really respect you as sister))
one extra thing:
I’m normal person(listenning to celine dion and have friends from Uk usa ru both m/f)
listen sister Rasha there is a big difference between right and wrong and you are saying “within the boundries of ISLAM”
there is something called “Haram” not allowed like ham and wine these things are not allowed in Islam, do you do it? maybe!! if so there will be no “within the boundries of ISLAM.”
meting girlfriends and boyfriends are NOT ALLOWED in Islam.
The joining of both sex in one place is against our believes.
IS COVERING A WOMAN’S FACE CONSIDERES A MODEL FOR ALL MUSLIMS?
I didn’t think you would be that superficial Tareeg!! you left everything else Islam stands for and you are holding on to this??
Islam has NOT stated clearly that a woman should cover her face! Hijab is to cover the hair and the body. and actually what is stated mostly is the BODY. don’t stick to only one mathhab (wahabism) without reading the others!
and Ohh my God … just because your friend saw a bunch of ladies without face cover.. that makes us SHOCKING!
your Islam dear Tareeg can be so different from mine.. Islam was meant to be broad, was meant to make life easier.. rather than complicate it! as a lot of you do.
Exactly… against our SOCIAL BELIEFS. not Islam.
I do not see anything wrong with working side by side to a male. It is not the boundries of a WALL that will make me a better muslim. It is my own boundries that I have for my self.
You are so not used to a mixed environment.. you only think of women as a sexual object and that is why you try to keep her locked up!
If you think of us as equals, learn how to deal with women with respect. we can all be productive within the BOUNDRIES OF ISLAM.
Are you telling me that ALL MUSLIMS all over the world including the GULF and the Middle East are BAD MUSLIMS just because they are living in a mixed atmosphere?.. I don’t think so..
You have been spoon fed these extreme thoughts like alot of Saudis have.. expose your self to different ideas. U might change your mind.
Did I say anything about girl/boy friend?? did I ask for this? was this one of the rights I mentioned? you have to learn to read and think a bit deeply.
I don’t mean to look down on your thoughts Tareeg.. I do respect you.
You want to live this way .. so be it. But do not inforce your Islam on me.
I thought your opinion was interesting ,Lamer.I cant see any personal attacks.Good for you.Its good to be open .We need to know whats on others minds more people will join in more will be learned by everyone.Esp the non Saudis.
Victoria, you wrote
Interesting comment Victoria. I can see that I am open to discussion and to different ideas unlike you who would rather choose who to hear from on the basis of nationality! maybe religion too. hmmm.. I sence racist behavior here!
You wrote (it’s good to be open) well dear you are NOT! you would rather block your ears and shut your eyes to one openion. whether you like it or not I am here and it is a shame to see how narrow minded and intolerant a person can be.
Rasha has a point here, Victoria!
On the other hand, Rasha, look at what you just treid to do with Tareeq (I cannot but trust you and compliment you on that one). Of course, Victoria tends to listen or actually to understand better my language. IT’s only natural. People (especially those who have not been exposed directly or suffuciently enough to a world different than theirs) understand best if someone ‘familiar’ to them TRANSLATES the world of difference to them. Otherwise, watch what Tariq can do with the idea of ’science’ , using I don’t know what Western (taking it out of context) to back up his long-held views about segregation. And than look how you approached him. I am sure what YOU told him makes a lot more sense to\him than what I could ever hope to say. YET, I insist, I believe we are both working on the same side of the camp.
And I state here again what I’ve stated somewhere else on this site: exchange (dialogue) is essential BUT REAL change will only happen from within, from the locals themselves, from inside Islam (in this case). KNowledge — whatever knowledge — is there to be TRANSLATED. But we need good translators, fresh blood (poetic license here) and lots of people around you for corrections…
Oh, and don’t get me wrong. I wish for change in the West too because we need to change together (WEST and EAST to use vermy generic terms and a dualistioc approach). We need to reach that THIRD SPACE that can breath ‘difference’. And I think that ’space’ is beyond gender and racism, possibly beyond nationality, maybe that would be “YOUR ISLAM” but I prefer to call it NO NAME so it belongs to everyone. Oh, but I am going too fast and too far right now and I might be misunderstood!!! PLEASE withhold judgement!!!!. We all need to take baby steps.
I have to correct myself again… When I said that “I am going too fast and too far right now”, I hope that did not imply that I was there already and that I am now translating that space FOR you. Rather, that we are somehow trying to do it with each other, trying to adjust our languages to welcome this strangeness.
Can you tell that in another life I was reading Homi Bhabha (The Third Space) and Helene Cixous (Stigmata)? No? That would be such a relief!
Dear Lamer,
I could not agree with you more.. I loved what you wrote:
I hope we reach that one day..but it needs a hell of alot of work!
thanks Lamer
Name calling just closes down all communication.I cant write as eloquently as over half of you on here even when english is not the first language.I write what I feel and can take being told I am wrong and maybe even learn from it.but to be told im racist narrow minded and intolerant is in my intellectual opinion just bollocks.
Victoria,
I agree. It may close the communication for you. But, if you take it as a provocation and try to actually reply intelligently and prove the other person wrong, well, that would just prove that you were humble enough to learn something.
If you can take a friendly advice, listen more carefully to these debates and try to figure for yourself what this is all about. Also try to find out WHY you are in this in the first place.
With the risk of upseting Rasha, I will take those remarks back for her! You are not racist nor narrow minded. You are here, like everybody else to learn and to start seeing hidden assumptions in your own language. You might just be a little bit insecure, like we all are sometimes, especially when we don’t know ’strangers’.
English is not my native language either, nor is it for many others here but we manage quite well, including yourself — I would have never guessed you are not one of ‘them’ 
. English is just an idiom we all chose to use for now, although, as you can see we are speaking many languages within this language.
If you consider ‘racism’ name calling that is an achievement in itself. Name-calling in this case was JUST a provocation for new thought and not so much of a personal attack — IT was a signal that something was wrong in your speech. Sometimes, those who provoke you prove to be your best friends. Racism and narrow mindedness is what we fight first and foremost in ourselves. Stay longer and see if you experience any changes…if you don’t, just quit without saying ‘good bye’.
Victoria,
I just want you to read what you wrote in your comment and tell me what I as a Saudi better yet as a reader sees!
I have never and will NEVER disrespect anyone on basis of ethnic, religious background, age, gender…etc. and I expect the same respect.
I was not name calling you but I was disappointed at how the discussion turned.
How easy it is to just shut someone up by saying I won’t listen to what you have to say because you are a…..(fill in the blank). That is not how things are done, communication is the key.. even if we disagree.
I enjoy reading people’s posts here and I love the diversity and colorful people I meet here. I always learn something from the differences in all of us. I hope you look at things from my perspective to understand.
lamer..
I will start addressing you by peacemaker. You do have good intentions, going out of your way to spread peace.
We are fighting for the same cause..
Don’t address me by peacemaker, I’ve just declared war in another forum(more like a tempest that Jack will probably overlook considering it either uncivilized, hysterical or childish). Lamer is just fine, it means The Sea in French. See? I guess I like doing the laundry…
I know..just read it.. I just hope you don’t have too many bruises after bashing your head the way you did!!
lol
Rasha,
I dont think Victoria meant anything by it.
Reading her comment I think she meant that this discussion about human rights in saudi more non saudis will learn about saudis, Thanks to lamer’s bashing
.
The way it was written is confusing and I can’t blame you for mis-understanding
Hey eveyone,Im sorry,I can be such a hothead!!Rasha,I meant no harm,I will think about the things you say,I promise.Thanks Wafa,for the translation,lol,x.
Ooooops.. if that is what you meant Victoria.. I do apologize. It is definately a misunderstanding.
Mrs. Rasha
You’re confused! Or you’re mixing things up.
Who told you that a woman must cover her face, this is personal thing. Believe me there are billion of Muslim women who DON”T cover their faces and they are still MUSLIMS.
I believe that there are more than one saying in covering a woman’s face. You are saying “Wahabism!!”Cool to say such a thing at least they are Muslims.
By the way I’m from Jeddah and I’m from Hejaz but I still believe that covering a woman’s face is better than to unveil it.
My dear Rasha
Don’t you agree with me that you are suppose to post such matter in local media not on this forum (not personal but at least It is going to be discussed by many people from your own place.
Finally, We are Muslims and we are suppose not to say “Exactly… against our SOCIAL BELIEFS. not Islam.”
Believe me this point is against Islam
And remember that proverb ” The Way to Rome Starts with One Step”
Go and see what’s happening in Jeddah ( ice-land or Dorrat Alaroos ) and after that say that “All Muslims work together with both male and female”
We are here have our own personality, our own believes and our own OPENION.
Have a nice day
opinion
Tareeq says: “By the way I’m from Jeddah and I’m from Hejaz but I still believe that covering a woman’s face is better than to unveil it.”
May I ask as respectfully and as innocently as possible WHY is that better?
Tareeq says: “We are here have our own personality, our own believes and our own OPENION.”
Yes, even I believe that is right. But who is this ‘we’? Again, an open question, not a threat.
Tareeq,
Forgive me for addressing you directly. IT is in writing though, so I hope it is viewed as safe. Your comments are worthwhile (they make ME think). I just found this quote from Rasha posted in another forum. Maybe she (the quote below) answers your previous question about posting comments in the local media as opposed to posting here. It also touches some issues related to women’s rights here. Rasha said:
” I remember one of the highly ranked members of the royal family mentioning that they do not have a problem with women driving.. it is the society that has to decide (knowing that we are divided and most are considered extremists in their faith)
So.. every one is throwing the ball into each others court!
Saudi is a very closed society that does not welcome change easily. Believe me.. talking and discussing our problems in the open is a START.. a few years ago, this was not even possible.. I agree with you, I would love to go to the next step.. but how should I do that knowing I would be slaughtered and my voice would be quitened.” end of quote
What do you think she is talking about when she talks about “the next step”?
If the goverment would follow it’s said belief, and not pick-n-choose, KSA’d be better off.
1400 years ago, when those most respected by muslims, were living, women could ride horses (Ban driving for women?), women could go to markets alone, and women even participated in the armies (as medics AND soldiers, not many soldiers thou).
You see, sexuality of any type is kept between the man and wife.
Women have to be dressed in clothes that are not too tight or revealing (except the face and hands, hair is one of the most beatiful things in a woman, thus has to be covered), it didn’t require this dreadful black outfit, hell… if the goverment follows islam, women can wear baggy pants, a bg t-shirt, and a vale, that’s not tight nor revealing of her body.
And you should know, these rules apply to men as well, wearing tight or revealing outfits is forbidden also, but men care less about what they wear, so it’s not a big deal.
And some people see that women needing a man with them most of the time is a law imposed on them, but this’s because the men themselves are lazy, because a woman has the RIGHT to request a relative man’s presence when she needs him, and the man has to comply, but men now are lazy, so they don’t, so women are less recommended to go out. ((Proof?, a telling of the prophet, he said: “A woman doesn’t travel without a relative man”, a man (a soldier in the army) asked: “My wife went to peligrim in Mecca, what should I do?” the prophet said: “Go and join your wife”.. and he’s a soldier in the army ))
The mixing of men and women in islam is prohibited, in private places, so a woman shouldn’t sit alone with a man who isn’t a relative or a husband in a room for example, or a car, or place far from the public, however, women and men being in the mall at the same time isn’t prohibited, so why only let the fathers and their families and girls in malls?, boys without families are forbidden from going to most malls -__-.
In restraunts, however, I support it, it’s totally great, single men alone, families and single girls alone, so single men wouldn’t pester the ladies.
** Keep in mind I’m arguing based off that sexual relationships and premarital sex are forbidden, this is what we believe in, questioning this is another matter **
Octo,
I am asking these questions very openly, from the perspective of a married woman (a woman who believes in love and marriage, that is), but also a woman who has lived long enough in a democratic society with solid laws that prevent discrimination of all kind. I am also a teacher, so I am used to ask non-threatening questions. I am not trying to win any points here, OK? So, from this very open perspective, I wonder about what you said about covering (I do not discuss Islam because I do not have enough knowledge in that area).
You said that women should cover (of course we shouldn’t mingle all naked because it’s unhealthy
. But you also said something that to me sounds weird: “except the face and hands, hair is one of the most beatiful things in a woman, thus has to be covered”. So, according to this logic, the face and the hands are not beautiful enough but the hair is ?!!! It’s either that a woman is all beautiful simply because she is what she is (and then you either accept and behave yourself with respect because you are a grown up civilsed person or you cover every woman from head to toe because you cannot accept who she is and how she looks or because you feel threatened). But there is always the posibility that we all cover then — men and women. Don’t you agree that the notion of covering and what is meant by covering is worth discussing ?
My post wasn’t directed at you by person, it was my thougts on the subject, just to be clear, I don’t find your questions threatning.
And that was misworded by me, it would’ve been more accurate to say seductive than beautiful, and yes, the hair would be much more seductive to men than just the face and hands.
And about accepting her and behaving myself and act as the civlised person I am, it works, on a person-to-person level, it works on a personal level, however the countries that don’t have covering have higher rates of rape (as a comparison, I’m not disrespecting anyone here), so why won’t they behave?.
If men and women dress so that their sexual appeal is totally hidden, they’d be respected and treated based on what they say and believe rather than how they look, while looks aren’t a factor, also men and women will be treated much better in their homes by their spouses than they would be if people don’t dress conservatively.
A boy grows up, not seeing a woman’s hair except his mother, sisters and aunts, and perhaps what he saw when he was young, then when he gets married, he sees this beautifull woman hs age, he has nothing to compare her with, she’s the most beautiful and romantic woman he ever saw, wouldn’t that lead to better treatment?.
Same goes for girls, only seeing her father, brothers and uncles, then a man pruposes to her, he’s the most romantic man she knows of, and most handsome, she’d treat him better as well?.
Countries which don’t have this conservative code of dress also have all these fashon magazines, which sets the bar amazingly high, I agree, so where’s the limit?, what has been an avreage woman 20 years ago doesn’t count for anything now, thus the blooming business of plastic surgery, the human race’s looks should look better with time, as science advances and we get better food and the gene elimination beautifies us over the generations, it’s not supposed to be like this.
Octo, I will read your text more carefully and perhaps reply with a question or two. I am not even considering YOUR text. It’s a text, thoughts, as you aptly put it that came through your mind.
Here’s the first one in reply to what you said, quote: “And that was misworded by me, it would’ve been more accurate to say seductive than beautiful, and yes, the hair would be much more seductive to men than just the face and hands.”
And the question raised by me is: If you didn’t cover their (womens’ hair) and you would just see their hair every day, day after day, do you think it would still be seductive? Perhaps, in the woman you love and choose to be with, but not in your sister, nor in your mother, nor in every ’stranger’ woman you happen to pass by in the street, I would hope (because that would be sick and you will be accused of having an obession with hair
Actually, to share this with you, my husband doesn’t find my hair (nor anyone’s hair) that seductive! I don’t think he chose me becuase of my hair, although I take good care of it.
Oh, you’ve also voiced this thought: “Countries which don’t have this conservative code of dress also have all these fashon magazines, which sets the bar amazingly high, I agree, so where’s the limit?”
Absolutely, Octo. Plastic surgery is kinda sick and sick is the notion of making superskinny models become models for ‘normal girls’ as well. Sick is the notion of advertising products by using (almost) naked women to sell perfumes. Yes, that’s merely seductive and it can be potentially damaging IF you don’t train your kids how to screan through that crap and how to learn to ask the right questions, and how to learn to know what is best for them. Education is key, as we mentioned. We should just train our kids to be smart and healthy, not brainwash them, that’s all. My daughter looks at some fashion magazines but she is not driven by nor RULED by, nor obsessed by those images. They’re fun and entertaining but I always talk to her about vthese issues. She enjoyes herself in new colorful clothes BUT she is not obsessed by such stuff because I trained her how think, how to screen her own thoughts, how not to give in into peer pressure. Rasha said in another forum that the barriers should be inside of us, not outside. I think we need health education, self-respect and empathy for other people. That’s all we need. The rest can happen, but there is a great chance that in this way (with good education and lots of training in asking questions) it will not happen to us.
I used hair as an example, because as I’ve seen it’s the thing that most people question why it should be covering, and I said hair is more seductive than the hands and face (when you asked if the hands and face aren’t considered beautiful), and covering the hair sometimes is meaningless, like some working women I’ve saw do (I’m not against woman working by the way, I encourage it) they wear very very tight pants, and a vale, what’s the point?, tight pants are more seductive.
And we try to eliminate seduction, to eliminate pre-marital sex, which is a given bad (for the sake of the argument, but you should be familiar with some of the reasons for that).
And you won’t be seducted by your mother’s or sister’s hair (I putted them in the previous post as examples of women who supposedly have zero sex appeal to the men related to them), however strangers passing by, you won’t like them all, but you will like a few, won’t you?, and this builds up, sometimes unconcious comaprisons between your spouse and the prettier strangers, it’s natural, a beautiful body shows signs of health, and when a man sees a healthy woman, or the other way around, the body has an urge to reproduce (sex), so if you see a beautifull woman, you will like her, not necessarily do something about it, but it’s the admiration of beauty, that should be your wife’s alone.
Octo, you said it like a man: “when a man sees a healthy woman, or the other way around, the body has an urge to reproduce (sex), so if you see a beautifull woman, you will like her, not necessarily do something about it, but it’s the admiration of beauty, that should be your wife’s alone.”
I actually love what you said above. You are a faithful man and that;s rather rare in today’s world. The only problem I see in your btext is the word “SHOULD” at the end, in that context. You WILL or ARE faithful (in admiration of) your wife. Of course you might be attracted ocasionally by another woman’s looks, it’s only natural BUT that doesn’t mean that you have no control over youself or that you would that far as to disrespect your wife. You have a holy book to keep you in good stead. Temptation will always be there, it’s only human. maybe some will stray away, but perhaps NOT YOU and [erhaps NOT your children and for that we have to teach them self-control and self-respect. On the other hand, if one falls pray to temptation, there has to be HEALING, healing ways, not opressive ways to deal with that. What do you guys do? Go to Mecca? What do women do? Cry, I believe.
Octo, by the way. I met my husband when I was 17 and it was my first and his first love and we just knew it and it worked up to this date (many years, I shoulod say), although we didn’t marry right away because we had lots of other things to do (school, etc.). On the other hand, if one isn’t that lucky, if it turns out sour or if one realizes that thie relationship one is in is just not what it should be, what one strives for (which is true love and respect, by the way) then the family, the community and society give one a chance to find what s/he needs or not? Should one be stigmatized? We carry the stigmas in our souls and that’s enough, in my humble opinion. Why should an entire society contribute to that, rather than try to heal it? Because I met a nut who screwed up my life forever?! Again, I am asking open questions.
Education is very much the key, but (as an example) why have drugs at all?, getting rid of drugs is as important as educating about it.
Fashion magzines do no good at all, I see no prupose of them existing, and they also, are a form of brain washing, an educated person such as you will educate their child properly.. what about the masses?, the women who force their daughters in beauty contests and auditions for movies, why have beauty contests for little girls anyway?, I think it’s brutal.
Oh, and I don’t agree with this kind of separation between the sexes here, I studied history and islam, and have never seen anything like it!, a man talking to an unrelated woman is forbidden.. what is this crap?, with this kind of separation, alienation between the genders occurs, I, personally, as a man with no sisters, don’t have a clue about dealing with girls, I don’t know how I should treat girls at all, the texts in Quran & Hadeeth do some good in that (The prophet said: The best of you is the one who treats his family the best.. and many other guide lines), but I need first hand experience, which I have almost none of.
Oh, and the way of healing, is believing you won’t do it ever again, and saying “Astaghfar Allah” (or the equalivent in your own language, I can’t directly translate it tbh, but you apologize to god), if someone else was hurt of your action, you make it up completely to them.
Out of the topic, Going to Mecca is both for women and men, and it’s once a life time (if able to, even), it’s not specifically to redeem your sins.
And you do get second chances, engagement periods here usually last for years, and an engaged woman doesn’t have to cover up completely from her fiance (in the presence of a relative man of the girl, to make sure the devil won’t work it’s works) and this engagment period is the equalivent of dating I guess, you get to know the deep corners of each other, and plan your lives together and so on, but what is diffrent from dating is, this is aimed at marrige from the beginning, while dating could be done just for fun, or some other reason.
And I might’ve gave you an impression of an older person, I do that quite often, I’m a 17 year old from Al-Khobar =D .
Regarding your first paragraph in the previous message, that ends up with the word ‘brutal’ I COMPLETELY agree. Mothers who FORCE their daughters to go into beauty contests etc. are wrong and so is anybody, any society that FORCES or tries to ENFORCE anything on individuals. A society has to have clear laws that prevent and deal with abuse. But the way it is done here right now is in itself a form of abuse and it is actually promoting abuse.
There are more cunning ways, MANIPULATION is a form of subtle abuse — when one person or a company CONVINCES people to do something that go against YOUR needs (lots of it has to do with money, power and personal pride). I believe that’s called pressure at best and at worse, it’s abuse. BUT if we as individuals UNDERSTAND what is healthy-good for each of us and learn to think more critically, then we it means that we just become not only smarter but also more ethical beings. We learn how not to harm ourselves and how NOT to harm others. If we are taught (not ‘abused’:) by parents and teachers how to be secure, not fearful, if there are proper laws to prevent and correct any kind of abuse, then each of us will know how to deal with pressure and how not to abuse in turn.
I MUST leave now because I’ve already spent too much time on the internet and away from my family and because I do not want to monopolize this forum. No one told me to do that, it’s just common sense, you see?
So, I will leave you on these thoughts. Other people can answer or ask questions in turn, ok? I know I leave this site in good hands. And thank you (personally) for your contribution!
One more thought: it is ‘brutal’ (your words) to make little girls run for beauty contests, and so is covering them in black to ’save’ you guys from lust. It is not so much to ’save’ them from being molested…you see…
So, you an I leave in a ’safe’ world BUT many others in SAudi Arabia do not and it goes unreported to ’save’…what? An image? Whose image? I do not see the women covered up in black as they are — it’s not their image that needs to be saved, right? But I see men all dressed up in white like brides. It’s a symbolic image that cannot escape an outsider’s eyes. Go back and read the article that started this thread:
“The (human rights) report further noted that domestic violence had reached an alarming level and called for an end to the requirement of male guardians for women and the need for male approval in all matters involving women.”
How do you say in Arabic the word ’sex’? (in writing I can be daring
How do you say in Arabic the word ‘LOVE’ ?
How do you say in Arabic the word: ‘LAUGH’?
Lovable, laughable, livable….how do you say these words in Arabic?!
Umm, questioning the arabic language’s vocabulary?, heh, you shouldn’t, it’s one of it’s strongest points.
The arabic language has a very, very, VERY gigantic vocabulary, because of our poetic history, poetry has always been an active part of history, we have more than 200 names for the lion, and 200 names for the camel, and hundreds of name for horses, and their colors, and the instruments of war, and flowers..
almost nothing has just a single word for it, so poets can rhyme and weigh the poetry (Something only an arabic speaker would understand), and we study grammar from 1st to 12th grade so we can write in a proper manner, writing beautifully requires further studies.
After this introduction.
Sex, as in gender, or sexual intercourse is pronounced “Jins”.
Love has letters english speakers can’t pronounce, but rounded to the closest pronounciation “Hob”.
Laugh has a letter that can’t be pronounced by english speakers, and a letter that noone ever could pronoune except native arabic speakers, “Ed’hak” to the closest, and laughter is “Dihk”
I read english novels and poetry, usually the imagination and the meaning are very beautiful, but the language itself, in my unbias opinion, is very inferior (artisticly, because of “the weight” system in the language, arabuc poetry is music without instruments, even if you just normally read it it has a ring that is diffrent from poet to poet, however scientifically, english is better because you use syllabels to combine words and make up words as needed quickly, in arabic it’s more complicated to make words.)
So this’s a basic rundown of our language =)
Octo,
I didn’t question the Arabic language, I am alreadi inlove with the Arabic language because of the complexities, richness and poetic resonance you are talking about. English is not my first language (Romanian and French are) and I agree with what you say about English.
Actually, that’s why I do not have access to the Koran. One HAS to know Arabic very well to really be embraced by it. Same with all the holy books. The rest are poor translations and perhaps many truths are lost in the way. BUT I have faith that what we are doing right now, these many voices we are bringing here on this site in dialogue, although it all happens in English, it can break the barriers of that (one) language. You can hear something beyond language…I don’t know how to explain but it’s happening and that’s what I call LISTENING WITH (as opposed to listening to).
I know it’s off the topic and very personal, but I’d like you to recommend me books of poetry written in Arabic by women (translated in English or French though….) Can you do that for me, Octo?
Correction (still off the topic): We might need to reconsider the idea of the English language as being poor. Perhaps it is poorly used and ‘mass produced’. But not by Sheakspeare and not by James Joyce (to give just two examples).
Personally, I prefer early islamic era and pre-islamc poetry, when the language was still unaltered, only arabs spoke arabic at that time, in later ages many muslim foreigners learned arabic to embrace their religion, thus accents were produced, and I prefer the original much stronger arabic, with few exceptions. Although even in many later ages most poets still used the original unaltered arabic (We call it “Fos-ha”, this word also has unpronouncable letters) but you still see the accent’s effect in weakening it.
So, I brought you the two elite women of that early age (~600 AC) who are Al-Khansa (Nickname) and Laila, and those two are still recognised to this day as one of the most talented arabic poets of all time (Al-Khansa espicially).
Al-Khansa
Laila
General Site of Translated Arab Poetry
Anyone who reads this that is not native arabic should remember that arabic poetry is made of craft of words and meaning, and you can’t enjoy the craft of words, so try to enjoy the meaning.
Octo, I love you, baby (in writing and as a mother
!!!!
Thank you!!!! I can’t wait to read Al-Khansa and Laila.
Listen, you are smart, clean and versed in language (you have very fine ears). That’s all we need really! I trust you completely. So,
GET OUT OF YOUR CONTEMPLTIVE STANCE, at least during the day and find more people like you, MOIRE MEN (young, old, it doesn’t matter). Get them into this site and get the dialogue going on any forum but especially on topics related to Saudi Arabia. Get moving!!!! Become an activist. Poetry in action, how does that sound?
Octo said earlier:
“The mixing of men and women in islam is prohibited, in private places, so a woman shouldn’t sit alone with a man who isn’t a relative or a husband in a room for example, or a car, or place far from the public, however, women and men being in the mall at the same time isn’t prohibited, so why only let the fathers and their families and girls in malls?, boys without families are forbidden from going to most malls -__-.”
WHY? WHY?! I have sat so many times with men and talked normally, respectfully, I had great insightful discussions with men. I work with men. I know men so well that I can sometimes tell what goes through their minds without them saying anything. I am comfortable around men, THERE IS NO PROBLEM. I know exactly where and how to stop a discussion and how to prevent unreasonable situations. Not with Saudi men though. I sat with them (my husband was around, of course) while their wives were at home — they never bring them to these mixed parties — and Saudi men acted awkwardly in my presence, they said stupid things, some were even making advances at me (and it was almost hilarious because my husband was there seeing this); even the older ones didn’t know how to behave themselves in front of a (Western) woman. It was ridiculous, Octo! I stopped going to such meetings because they made me feel bad and inferior, and just awkward. It was degrading! Why do you thiunk that happens? BECAUSE they don’t know women and because in the back of their minds they assume that a woman who comes to a mixed party (again, I was there WITH my husband) MUST be an ‘easy’ one. It’s insulting…and they don’t get it, they don’t see anything wrong in their attitude. But how can they learn more and behave themselves properly if they live in such a segregatated society?!
One more true story. Last year I went to a conference in Bahrain. I was with my friend, another woman who is much older than I am but who is very much alive. She likes to dance (she is from South America, they all like to dance there). We went in the evening at the Meridien where she met a group of Southy American singers who were playing/singing in the restaurant. We talked with them and then went and danced Samba just by ourselves. We loved it, especially coming from a tight workschedule and the black abayas of Riyadh. Guess who bugged us? Two Saudi men who were sitting and drinking alchohol at their table. It was outrageous!!! WE explained politely that we are there to dance, not to mingle with men. They couldn’t understand. I had to call a restaurant worker to explain the situation to them and of course, left the place and join our friends in a different restaurant. Men here have to learn to behave themselves and respect women, no matter where these women are coming from! Nowhere else in a Western country this would have happened (unless of course, the men were drunk)`– there would be serious repecutions, you can sue men for harrasment. Can you do it here in Saudi?!
You see, my argument isn’t that each and every time a man and a woman are in a private place, sex will take place, it’s that it encourages it, and the prophet said: “A man alone with a woman (not maried or related of course) have the devil as their third”, forbidden behaviour is much more to occur in private than in public, also even if the woman is respectable, even respectable men will lose it in certain situations, as men’s sexual drive being so much stronger, so this also protects the man from losing the respect he earned in a moment of weakness, and the woman from being harassed without someone to defend her honor, and rape would be impossible.
In the other scenario, if the woman wants to commet the sin, it’s easier for the man to get back to his senses and refuse in public, but it’s so much harder in private, that’s why men who have refused commeting this sin with an attractive woman have special treatment in the day of judgement.
And I agree about Saudi men, but honestly, you got the bad side of it, the ones who go to mixed parties (without their wives even, that’s further proof) and escape to bahrain to drink alcohol aren’t the best of us, for you to meet some good saudi men you have to actively look for them, because part of them being good is, they won’t approach you.
And yes you can sue a man for harassment, in islam that would result in a swift, decisive and appropriate ruling against the man, sizeable with the kind of harassment, in Saudi Arabia however it would result in slow, undecisive, and either over-punishment or under-punishemnt depending on the judges mood, for you to understand the diffrence between islam and Saudi Arabia even more, there is -I think it’s a law, or an advice to the law system- that says: The judges are not to be judged, so they’re home-free, they’re not accountable for anything, much like the priests of church in Europe in the dark ages, while in early islam, the caliph -ruler- himself stood before a judge, and the famous story of Omar the caliph that suspected a man was drinking alcohol in his house, so he broke in and caught him redhanded, when they went to court, the drinking man said: “I broke 1 rule by drinking, Omar -the caliph- spied on me, jumped into my house from above the wall, and entered my house without permission for me” and the case was dismissed.
“Nowhere else in a western country this would have happened (unless ofcourse, the men were drunk)”
I don’t agree with the first part, it happens mostly everywhere, you said yourself it was outragous, you escaped from Riyadh’s conservative code of dress, and got harassed in Bahrain, so a question I ask to answer honestly, have you been harassed in the abaya? (Although I don’t like the black abayas, and I support conservative, stylish clothes more, but the abaya does have a job.)
No you can’t sew men here for harassment.. you will end up sewing a large number of Saudi men!
You said it lamer, men think that just because a woman goes to a party as you mentioned (even with her husband) she is a flirt. Men DO NOT see women, they are not accustomed to talking and mingling with women let alone watching women dance the samba!
And by the way.. some of these men travel, they experience different societies and open atmospheres yet.. they still act stupidly!
Even in the work place a woman (saudi) has to watch what she says and do infront of her colleagues in case they misunderstand her normal behavior to being flurtacious! they MIX up signals.. actually just having an XX individual in the room mixes up all their being!
Men are like that because this is all new to them.. and because they DO NOT see women as individuals rather they see sexual objects! that is what they have been taught.
Actually.. have you seen car chases here in Riyadh?
This is what some men do for fun.. they cruise around in their cars, once they see a car with a woman inside, they will chase her.. (where is the respect?)
Saudi women jokingly say: if you place a cow in a car and cover it with a (abaya) men will chase it!
I had an incident a few years back, I went out with a couple of girlfriends for breakfast in a cafe, we left the cafe around 11:30 AM ( turns out it was last days of school ) 4-5 cars filled with teenage boys followed our car, they surrounded our vehicle at a traffic light and tried to open the car door (we had it locked) one of the boys had a weapon (pistol) he was waving it at us.. can you imagine that? we thought we were gonna get raped for being out in our car at day light! God was with us, we had a police car escort us back home. Guess what ? as we arrived home the police escort tried to hand us his phone number!! how safe can a woman feel?
I have to add that when Saudi men consume alcohol, they don’t know their limit! I have seen so many saudi’s abroad and in the country who make fools out of them selves and make me feel so ashamed because they represent my country! ( there are good people, but I don’t know why the bad usually sticks out!)
I think what I wrote previously answers your question Octo! We were all wearing abayas..
You are bringing proofs that are more than 1400 years old! how about now, present day? you think a woman can seu a man? not that easy my dear.. you know what will be said in the end.. I can actually picture it, Woman.. you must have done something to make this man harass you! THE WOMAN is always BLAMED in the end. It is the woman’s reputation that is harmed in the end.. not the man.
My mom used to tell me when I was much younger, it doesn’t matter if a man walked naked in the streets, but even for the smallest stupidest mistake a woman’s reputation will be scratched like a delicate piece of glass, once it’s scratched.. it can never be fixed!
First, to Octo who asked me “to answer honestly, have you been harassed in the abaya?”.
Yes, I have, twice only in 8 years. I should add to this the MANY harrassments from religious polce I had to endure for not covering my hair. And the harrassment of having to wear a black abaya all the time when I go out. And feeling inferior as a woman. But you wouldn’t know how that feels, Octo, right?
You are judgemental in your tone and you talk from books not from life.
Oh, I should be even more specific about those two times in 8 years. One man grabbed my b_t on the street. I was fully covered (except my face). So I am guilty
The other one, I was looking at clothes and didn’t even notice that a man was next to me trying to feel … my abaya. I am sure it would have happened more but I work a lot and don’t go shopping that often. However, all I am saying here doesn’t proove your point (that women should be covered to prevent men from molesting them). Rather, that boys should be raised properly in unsegregated schools, have sex and health education classes, have friends girls, a;; this within Islam. Oh,one more: many times when I went with the shopping bus I saw young men waving from their cars showing big pieces of paper with their tele[phone number on them. It’s pityful!
I went to another conference in Jeddah and I was so happy to walk by the sea. I was alone and happy in my own little\ world. Not for long though because car after car filled with teenagers or perhaps young men, I don’t know, were doing everything to get my attention. It’s ridiculous!
I wanted to add a point.. you mentioned, men and women should not be alone in a room or a car.. etc!
How about all these foreign drivers driving us women ALONE in a car with them? isn’t this khelwa as you would call it?
Or do I have to sit and wait for a man (husband, father, bro.) to take me out?
We all know that men are either too lazy or busy to take us women out.
Isn’t it easier if I can pickup my car keys and head for the car?
Men CONTROL women in Saudi Arabia.. they fear giving us our freedom (the little freedom we ask for)
Octo, you quoted: “A man alone with a woman (not maried or related of course) have the devil as their thirdâ€.
If you are well prepared and well grounded, the devil is a joke. I speak from experience and you speak from books again.
I agree Rasha, with most of what you said.
Just to point out something: “when Saudi men consume alcohol, they don’t know their limit!”
The limit is supposed to be no alcohol what-so-ever, alcohol has never done any good (not including medicinal uses), and “It is good for relationships and bonding with people, and drinking a little bit of alcohol improves your health” doesn’t compare with “rape, murder, theft, child abuse, physical assaults, money wasting, time wasitng, high possibilities of addiction.”
Alochol is bad, and bad only.
In cases of mixed signals, women are the decisive factor here, they should be clear about it once a sign of miss understanding is there, and if it happens too often, then the woman herself should review her behvaiour, it MIGHT be her.
And Rasha, the 1400 year old proof still stands, those were great people, if only we follow their footsteps.
And men get opressed also Rasha, espicially in Riyadh, your stories and opinions are a bit one-sided, I have been hit by the religous police (religous my ass!, what religion are they following?) for wearing jeans, appearently their religion forbids certain types of fabric, and have been hit for accedentally smiling at the same direction of a girl, while she just laughed it off and walked on, and I also have been blocked from going into malls, I just wanted to buy a book, or a video game or something, but since I’m a 17 year old boy, unmarried, I have to bring my mother to come with me to buy clothes, and bother her, or beg some random girl outside of the mall to let me in, I just want to have dinner or something, but the girl also takes it as harassment, and calls security.
Things aren’t one-sided, you should try it sometime, begging random people outside of the mall to let you in.
The worst thing that has happened to me?, getting picked up at prayer time while waiting in front of a pharmacy (I’m Diabatic) because I didn’t go to the mosque, I told them I was waiting for the pharmacy to open, faced by much ignorance, taken to the detention center, and getting my father called down because his son “refuses” to pray. Islam requires shops to close for prayer only in the noone prayer of Friday, and islam advices Imams to shorten the prayers so that sick people won’t suffer, detaining a diabatic for waiting outside of the pharmacy?, that’s just corrupt.
And it before Rasha, a woman shouldn’t have to resort to staying alont in a car with a driver, she should be able to drive, and if not, she should request a man’s presence and he should be available at once, but men these days, aren’t men.
And I know it doesn’t count for anything, since 1 person isn’t much of a diffrence, but I personally fired the driver at the age of 16, and drove my mother whereever she wanted.
And you spoke in islamic truth lamer, if you are well prepared and well grounded, the devil is a joke, and I speak from books because books are all I have, you see, I have to make theories and test them mentally, if I could apply my beliefs, I wouldn’t be here discussing them.
I don’t know if I hadn’t made it clear, but my whole point is, Islam vs. KSA, my true belief is, this society needs to shed it’s tribal nonsense, shed these primal actions, and follow the islam that truely civilizes people, not pick and choose (They don’t even pick a whole ruling of exam at once.. they just choose the parts the need).
And sorry for mass typoing, it’s 12:30 am and I have a lot of important exams.
And in the last paragraph: “a whole ruling of exam at once” should be “a whole ruling of islam at once”
it seems funny when I think about it XD
I must say, very insightful remarks, Octo. The system is pretty oppressive here. If you as a young man feel that (and you gave a few good examples), imagine how women feel… I agree with you when you say “it’s tribal nonsense”.
Good Luck with your exams! I hope you are becoming a writer with Arab News and you go interview the young generation of KSA.
Dear Octo,
I know that some men suffer from the oppressive system in the country, and I know that men get arrested and beaten up sometimes by religious police either for wearing pants, different hair styles.. for cruising the streets, being in a mall.. etc. but you are no where close to what women suffer from here as lamer mentioned.
Octo, you know as well as I do that single men were allowed everywhere including malls. BUt because there were alot of complaints from men harassing women that they stopped single guys from going in! it does not make sense to me either.. but the society has to teach boys and young men to respect other people.
I can tell from your writings that you are a very smart guy and open to discussion which is a breath of fresh air. It is people like you who can change so much..
All that said, I still disagree with you about women driving and men attending for their needs as you mentioned. I actually used to love going out doing erants with my husband/bro..etc. but women today are not like our mothers in the past. I take my son to school, go to work, leave at lunch break so I can pick him up and drop him home, go back to work then go home. I might need to buy some groceries or take my child out ….. you think a man can make himself free to do all this.. NO WAY. Believe me, a man would be jobless or I would need to pay his salary for being my personal driver!
Things have changed, and people here should start to accept it.. and learn how to deal with the change.
Did you ever think about low income, lower class socioeconomic status of women who are widowed, divorced or even single who do not have a legal guardian to help? what if he was paralised, sick or disabled ?what if the relative was an ass (there are so many) what is there to do? who would take her to her work.. schools.. hospital.. etc?
How ever bad it is for you Octo.. it is 100 times worse for us.
I had a patient a while ago, she was a 60+ year old lady with diabetes, heart disease, tuberculosis and hypertention.
I was taking her medical history and reading her file, she was in a bad state, her blood sugar was sky rocketing and so was her blood pressure. I asked her who was taking care of her? why isn’t she taking her prescribed meds? she told me that all she had were three SONS, they all got married and left her alone. she lived in what’s left of her mud home!! her sons live in the city. Some neighbors bring her food and when she got TOO SICK.. they got her to the hospital..
Women should learn to be independant.. that is the most important tool to survive these days.
I’d think the unjust opression is harder against women, but I wouldn’t know myself, so your opinions matter to me.
And you disagreeing with me about driving means you misunderstood me, what I said about driving sums up to: “Women should be able to drive, but for the mean time, men should get off their asses”, and I think women being able to drive is essential (Although not at the age of 17 as boys do, that would be too much risk for me to be honest, propably 20 or so would be a good age), the woman is the active manager of the house, she should be able to see her needs through, rather than waiting for the man (him either being busy or just plain lazy).
About the story of that 60 year old woman, whenever I read something like this, I feel sad inside, remembering the saying: “Heaven is under the feet of mothers”.
It should’t matter what men think as women can think for themselves.If they want to drive then they drive,if they want to cover themselves up then it’s entirely up to them.Octo,it’s appaling and evil to me when I read about the way things are over there.You have all these corrupt police and judges so how does enslaving women make anyone more holy or ‘good’.Im from the UK,and you seem to be a nice person but you have many subtle prejudices toward women that you will be unaware of as you dont know any different{or better}I am becoming more understanding due to this forum and try to look at things differently,plus I try to squash my own prejudices that I realise I had{have?}but the sexism …..is too extreme.I hope it gets better soon.On tv earlier,on a documentry about Martin Luther King,it said that great changes and revolutions start with little people with big hearts,eg.a black woman refused to give up her seat for a white person on the bus,and this sparked the black movement,that one lady!Amazing.Perhaps this forum could start the same for Saudi.Its a nice thought anyway.
I lived in the UK, for 6 years, in London, Port Smith.
I know what it’s like over there first hand, while you didn’t experienced living here also.
We talk about the worst in this country because it needs discussion, there are so many aspects here that I find are far better than the UK.
Security here is high, yes, there’s a terrorist attack every year or two, and our police is doing there best to deal with that, but I have never in my entire life been mugged here, or held at gun point, and rape here is almost nonexistant, and drugs aren’t “Normal” or just slightly unusual as I’ve seen in the UK, and all the badness of alcohol isn’t here, and in my whole immediate and extended family (more than a hundred people) only once was a car stolen.. yet, all these things have either happened to me or have happened to friends and relatives in the UK.
And sure women can think for themselves, and they can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else, and wearing clothes that increase sexual attraction to the maximum hurts marriges and families, hurts youth that are not married yet, go to blogs of boys in the UK trying not to have premarital sex, it’s impossible, I met a few and they’re living in constant… um.. shame of being virgins, and hormonal pressure to just let go and do it, which is contrary to their beliefs, just so the girls can feel they are “sexy”?, where’s the justice in that?, no concideration for rightous people.
So because of how a few women want to dress, wives (how are forced to compete) and husbands, and youths girls and boys have to take a smack, for the sake of clothes?.
Judges aren’t corrupt, they just don’t take their responsability seriously, and there’s too few of them to serve quickly, and our police aren’t corrupt, you must mean the religous police, and they’re simply not doing what they are supposed to do, and although they hurt invidiuals occasionally (rather often), but they’re the one that bust the alcohol factories and the whore houses and deal with childe abuse, and we just want them to improve their methods, not remove them, the saying from Koran comes to mind, god told the prophet: “And if you were rude and thick-hearted then people would not stay with you”, and the prophet said: “Treat people as you like to be treated” (He said people, not men, not women), also he said: “Religion is treatment (of other people)” also: “Manners are a part of faith”, these religous police aren’t religous, that’s their problem.
And I don’t see anyone saying enslavement of women is a good thing.
I know Martin Luther King and what he did, however, should such a revoloution occur here, what is hoped to be changed?, there’s a lot of good in this country, taking it for granted and not discussing it doesn’t deny it’s existance.
This might have sounded a bit defensive, but you know this country through the complaints and rants on the net, and haven’t experienced being here as a resident.
I dont need to go there .Women are treated appalingly.Ive never been raped.Sexual attraction dosn/t hurt anybody.Ive never been mugged either nor been held at gunpoint.I will not cover up.If men behave badly its because they are bad,it has nothing to do with the way I dress.I learned about your corrupt country on this very forum,do you want meto show you some of things Ive read from Saudi people?Sexism is no different to racism.If we said in the UK that muslims are not allowed to drive, would you not feeel angry and hurt?Its the same for women in Saudi.I dont need to be a resident to know right from wrong.
And sure women can think for themselves, and they can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else, and wearing clothes that increase sexual attraction to the maximum hurts marriges and families, hurts youth that are not married yet, go to blogs of boys in the UK trying not to have premarital sex, it’s impossible, I met a few and they’re living in constant… um.. shame of being virgins, and hormonal pressure to just let go and do it, which is contrary to their beliefs, just so the girls can feel they are “sexy�, where’s the justice in that?, no concideration for rightous people.
So because of how a few women want to dress, wives (how are forced to compete) and husbands, and youths girls and boys have to take a smack, for the sake of clothes?.
How can you blame women for the above.How can u blame clothes.Do u believe you’re righteous.?Surely not?
“Do u believe you’r righteous.?Surely not?”
I believe achieving rightousness in this day and age is very hard if not impossible, but I will live and die trying to that to the maximum of my ability.
“If we said in the UK that muslims are not allowed to drive, would you not feeel angry and hurt?”
If you have read my previous posts, which I doubt you did, you would find I’m very much against banning driving for women, so why is this directed at me?.
“I learned about your corrupt country”
“Sexual attraction doesn’t hurt anybody”
“If men behvae badly then they are bad, it had nothing to do with the way I dress”
This makes me want to politely end the conversation with you, so this would be the end of my discussion with you, no hard feelings.
Actually,it hurts me very much that you have such a low opinion on women.I did read your previous posts,the driving thing was to try to make you understand how it feels not to be allowed to do something just because of your sex.Why do you punctuate my comments.If you close your mind,how can either of us learn anything from each other.Maybe the first comment of the 3 was rude,for that one I am sorry.I have no hard feelings,i am hurt tho,but if thats the way you feel then I respect that.
Victoria, I am glad to see you again in this forum..
) I agree that we have a lot of good in this country, it is not all corrupt. I usually point out the worst in this country because many deny our problems and if people keep ignoring them this country will not progress. I believe that the new generation can save this country from going down hill. we need clean minds, ambitious and positive people to wipe out discreminations between races, between men and women and most importantly extremism and IGNORANCE.
I agree with both you and Octo..
Dear Octo ( I knew you must have had some education abroad
but where are these youths? what are they doing? wondering about in the streets of Saudi Arabia with no objective.
Having a low opinion of women condracts with me trying to be a rightous muslim.
I believe that “Heaven is under the feet of mothers”, which is an honor not given to fathers.
I believe that “A person who raises two girls rightously until they grow comes in heaven him and I *And the prophet puts his fingers together, meaning close*” So a man asked: And one?, the prophet didn’t reply, the man asked two more times, the prophet said: “And one.”
Properly raising a girl gets you as close to the prophet as the fingers of the hand put together.
I believe when a man asked the prophet: “Who of people is the most worth of my good company”, the prohet said: “Your mother”, the man asked: “Then who?”, the prophet said: “Your mother”, the man asked: “Then who?”, the prophet said: “Your mother”, the man asked: “Then who?”, the prophet said: “Your father”
The mother deserves the good company of her son 3 times than his father does.
I believe in the prophet saying: “If a man comes whom you are satisfied with his faith and manners, and don’t marry, it is a big sin and large corruption”, provided ofcourse, the girl wants to marry him.
So if a girl wants to marry someone, and he pruposes, if his islam and manners were ok, then it is a great sin to not marry him, meaning the choice is the girl’s, provided the man loves her (because even if his islam and manners weren’t acceptable, he will change, he loves her doesn’t he?)
In islam there’re only 3 cases you are permitted to lie at, One of them being: complementing your wife.
I was anything near a true muslim, a low opinion of women is not possible, if I was anything near a tribal ass, a fair opinion of women is not possible.
You tell me which you think I am, Victoria.
As I finished posting my last reply, I remembered a project me and a couple of my friends had, to promote the fair treatment of women.
Sexists who hide behind islam as an excuse for their sixism have always repeated a saying of the prophet to me, and I didn’t know how to argue with it when they did, it goes like this: “Women are made from a bent rib, do not try to fix them or they will break”, they always said that women are bent, they are lesser humans that us, they can’t be straightened, and this saying being their evidence.
So we sat, gathered many resources on araibc language, we studied the events that occured the time of this saying being said, and guess what we found out?.
“Women are made from a bent rib, do not try to fix them or they will break” is actually advice for men who think their wives baby them, and they are getting sick of it.
In the arab dictionaries, a bent rib is one close to the heart, and the words for feelings, and emotions are taken from the root word bending, and it’s used because of how a mother bends when she holds an infant child, that being one of the purist emotions.
So the true meaning of the saying?, women are naturally caring and close to the hearts of men, don’t force her to be something she isn’t.
I think you’re sexist!lol.
This is the sort oSaudi women columnists have recently spoken out against the oppression of women in their country. They denounced the Saudi preachers who spread negative notions about women in their sermons, criticized the countless limitations imposed on women in Saudi Arabia, and criticized the norms of Saudi society regarding the relationship between husband and wife.
The following are excerpts from some of the articles:
Preachers Spread Distorted Notions About Women
Columnist Dr. Hasna Al-Quna’ir wrote in the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh: “Women are victims of [the preachers'] discourse… [which is intended to] condemn them and to prove them inferior [to men] in their piety and in their mental [abilities], [based on] a shameless distortion of the Prophet’s hadith…
“Our TV channels are full of old and new preachers who convey their views directly to the public… Answering [viewers' questions], they burst with accusations against members of the [female] sex. They excite the viewers’ emotions, entreating them to defend the virtues that the women corrupt…
“An example is the answer given by one of the preachers [to a viewer who asked] about consulting with his wife and seeking her advice. [The preacher told him]: Do not consult with her, for she is emotional and her opinions are not valid… As evidence, he cited the Prophet’s hadith [which says]: ‘a tribe that nominates a woman [as leader] will not succeed’… Many preachers refuse to acknowledge that this hadith… was uttered in [specific] historical circumstances and in a particular context. The Prophet never meant it as a ruling that applies to all women, in every place and at all times…
“Another preacher incited fathers, brothers and husbands against their daughters, sisters and wives, saying that a girl who is not beaten from an early age grows up to be a rebellious woman, difficult to control… This preacher [also] said that a woman who leaves her home without a veil is like [a woman] who goes out naked. He warned the Muslim women against wearing their abayas [a long gown] around their shoulders [instead of covering their heads as well], saying that this was the main reason that women are seduced and fall [into sin]… There was [a preacher] who warned women against shaking a man’s hand, saying that, according to one of the sheiks, a woman who shakes the hand of a man that is not her husband is guilty of… ‘adultery of the hand’…
“The question is why some Muslims have [developed] this dehumanizing view of women, which does not respect [the women's] humanity and honor. [This situation] stems from disregarding important factors… such as the historical circumstances and the specific context which formed the background for some of the religious laws and rules that [discriminate] against women. It also stems from the failure to distinguish between religious duties pertaining to rituals – which may be subject to absolute principles – and rules of behavior, which are controversial and are not subject to absolute laws, such as [the custom of] covering the face…
“This is what led to these distorted views and to the [development] of rigid thought patterns regarding women which are not open to debate, and which are accepted by the followers and students [of these preachers] who endorse extremist views. The woman is the victim of this insular culture, and her only salvation would be a reorganization of the cultural structure of [our] entire society.”(1)
Saudi Women Are Subject to Countless Prohibitions
Saudi columnist Fatima Al-Faqih examined the question of discrimination against women, trying to assess it in a detailed and objective manner. She wrote in the Saudi daily Al-Watan:
“Are Saudi women actually deprived [of their rights]? [They] are forbidden to drive, forbidden to travel without permission, forbidden to stay alone at a hotel without permission, forbidden to name their own children without [a man's] consent… forbidden to take out a passport without permission… forbidden to leave their homes without permission… forbidden to take a job without permission… forbidden to change the color of their abayas, forbidden to go to school or to the university without permission… forbidden to purchase shares or to open to a [bank] account in their children’s name without permission.
“[A woman] is not allowed to expose her face in some cities of the kingdom… [She] is not allowed to marry without permission… not allowed to stay married if [one of] her male relatives decides that her husband’s [tribal] lineage is inferior to hers… not allowed to sue for divorce without apologizing and paying a fine, not allowed to keep her children after the divorce, unless she gets permission… not allowed to hold a senior position in the private or public sectors, not allowed to vote or run for office… not allowed to travel alone with a chauffeur… not allowed to annoy her husband, and finally, a woman’s voice is considered [a form of] defilement, and she is forbidden to speak in public, so that her affairs will remain shrouded in secrecy.
“A researcher [studying the limitations on women] would [probably] stop here, since the list is endless, and since he would conclude that whoever doubts the [injustice] inflicted on women either lacks awareness or derives some benefit from the discrimination. The damage [caused by this discrimination] is obvious, and the solution has been delayed, causing the problem to grow [even] more severe. There is need for immediate intervention in order to stop the deterioration.”(2)
A Saudi Woman Lives in Constant Fear
Columnist Dr. Maha Al-Hujailan criticized the norms of Saudi society, where a woman must live in constant fear that her husband may take another wife. In an Al-Watan article titled “the Intimidation of Women in Our Society,” she wrote: “Our culture rests on several basic values of family life, including the assumption that a women must live in constant fear of a man. This is especially true when she gets married, since she must constantly suffer mental and psychological anguish, fearing that her husband may take another wife.
“According to [our] culture, [only] a woman who lives in this sort of fear and anguish properly fulfills her role as wife, while a women who feels assured that her husband will not take another wife comes to disdain her husband and her family life…This culture causes a women to feel mentally and psychologically inferior, like a quarrelsome child who must be constantly supervised, intimidated and punished into performing her duties.
“In our culture, an exemplary, clever, and well-behaved woman is one who fulfils her duty out of the constant fear… that her husband will take another wife, since she is helpless [to prevent this]. [It is assumed that] if it weren’t for this overt or covert threat, the woman would not behave herself.
“No doubt, it is [our] social reality that reinforced this notion and turned it into an accepted [norm] among men and women alike. Some women were raised in this culture, and [its norms] have become part of their mental and psychological baggage. Perhaps this [upbringing] has caused them to believe that a good man who respects them is nothing but a weak and unstable man… In their opinion, an ideal man is a violent one who humiliates his wife. This is the ideal upheld by the society in which they were raised.”(3)
Endnotes:
(1) Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), February 18, 2007.
(2) Al-Watan (Saudi Arabia), February f thing I mean,Can u see why I think your views are hurtful?
What was the #(3) source?
Al-Riyadh and Al-Watan are local Saudi newspapers? In Arabic or in English? Who can tell me?
Victoria, do not forget that what works in the UK wouldn’t work here and that a revolution might not be what these people need, nor are able to achieve. For the sake of the whole region, we need stability. With these being said, if what you posted here was published in Riyadh, then I have great hopes for change.
What was pointed out in the last paragraph (3) is what I fear the most — that too many women here have internalized the detrimental men’s gaze and would not join the voices that bring about change.
However, there are so many educated men and women who can put their heads together and work with royal family (who themselves are highly educated) to get things going the proper way.
Octo, read Victoria’s last post and …don’t weep…just think what’s to be done for th0se women who cannot speak for themselves!
Octo, what you said rings in my mind: “I remembered a project me and a couple of my friends had, to promote the fair treatment of women.”
It is great that you are going back to the source (the Koran) to ‘liberate’ women. But don’t forget that the other source are the women themselves — those who live today in KSA.
http://freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=1965 Here is where I got the my info from Lamer,took me a while to find it again.
You’re critisizing the country, and talking to me as if I’m defending the bad in it.
BOTH men and women should drive.
BOTH men and women should wear whatever they want, as long as it is conservative, why should we follow your model of freedome and liberty?, you have a fellony called Indecent Exposure, someone could call that opressive, people should not wear anything if they want, right?, of course not, and the diffrence between us and you, is that the limits for sexual attraction when you wear anything is ~0, for BOTH men and women, it’s wrong to limit men and women to white thobes and black abayas, the biggest evidence is that the prophet’s favorite shirt was the roman shirt, I say wear whatever you want if it’s decent, and values for decent is diffrent from cluture to culture, so why do we need to impose your values of decent to be civil?, values for decent clothing here should be: Not revealing, not transperant, and not tight, and no silk or gold for men. You’re making a big deal of this, and it seems you’re suggesting that a woman’s opression is determined by what she is allowed to wear.
I believe woman should drive, women should have more jobs they can work comfortably at, women should be treated fair in court, women have the right to choose their husbands, women have the same obligation as men to seek education, women have the right of opnion and should be able to express it.
I think we should focus on the above, more than focusing on what she is allowed to wear, and men are allowed to wear, any man here who doesn’t wear a thobe isn’t considered of full manhood, and at school when we lengthen our hair, the princible comes and cuts it at random with a razor and then we’re forced to shave completely, although there’s nothing that says a man can’t lengthen his hair.
The code of dress here is a minor problem, and will be solved when greater ones are, and solving it doesn’t mean changing it into another culture’s or religion’s standards, it means changing it to islam’s wise moderate standards.
This is the saudi activist for human rights Wajiha Alhuwaider on t.v
it is translated into english.. very insightfull
Ooops.. this is the sight ..
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1465#
Now here is a letter from human rights executive director to the Saudi government after the arrest of Wajiha
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/20/saudia14461.htm
Octo,
I back you up dear..
there are more important matters at stake.. the code of dress is less in importance than others mentioned..
But wouldn’t it be lovely to see women in white, pink or yellow for a change?
Black is depressing.. plus it is too damn hot in this country to wear black in public all the time.
I would love to.
Also women covering up their faces is not necessary in islam, all women covering up their faces makes it very hard for me to find my mother in a mall or anywhere basically, and I can’t remember how many times I went on and said a joke or some silly thing to a woman who I thought was my mother, it was embarassing, gladly they were understanding after I explained and didn’t call security.
Women should be able to be fashionable and look neat and beautifull (not sexy) while complying to islam’s standards, as men should be able to, black is too depressing indeed, and they are many ways to wear clothes that are still decent but look very nice, and in the heat and humidity (something VERY common here in Al-Khobar) abayas just become a burden.
What an amazing woman.Saudi Arabia should be held accountable for breaking the law of human rights,to me its upsetting and I would be scared of going there,with a mouth like mine lol. She is a brave lady.Lets hope she continues,as she will inspire many others.I can see how saudi is changing,things can only get better.
She is definately a very BRAVE lady… I would not adopt her tactics in rioting on the streets of Saudi.. other than that I am very supportive..
Octo, I want to ask you a question, If I told you I represent about 5-10% of women in Saudi Arabia.. how much do you represent from Saudi youth in the kingdom with your ideologies (roughly)?
Moderate people who want to execute islam and shed tribal beliefs, between those who want to completely take out islam and leave it in the mosque to civlize and modernize (aka WESTERNIZE) Saudi Arabia, and the people who want to rule by tribe and make a new strict and unforgiving religion and call it islam, it’s more than 10% for sure, but not 20%, so 10-20%.
And I’m assuming 10-20% of people, not men or women, both.
you guys are agreeing all in the same principle give women the rights THEY DESERVE…
I know the numbers (Rasha’s 5%-10% and Octo’s 10-20%) are guesses, but if they are close to reality, then what’s to be done with the other…more than half?! Would they actually ‘fight’ against these progressive (in fact normal) views?
It’s not that simple, it’s not like people are either 1) Want to inforce an intorelant, untrue islam, 2) Want to undo islam, 3) Make progress with true islam..
It’s gradual, some people are moderate, but lean to intorlenace, some people are moderate, but lean to too much tolerance.
And in my personal life, more than 20% are moderate and want to progress, and agree with me on most things, but that’s because I don’t talk and befirend just about anyone, and all my friends share my views, and they help me raise awareness (not about women at the moment to be honest, we’re raising awareness about how piracy and theft of copy rights should be treated as thievery, muslim imams say so too, but people find piracy so common they don’t conciously thing about it, perhaps women are next)
It’s not that simple, it’s not like people are either 1) Want to inforce an intorelant, untrue islam, 2) Want to undo islam, 3) Make progress with true islam..
It’s gradual, some people are moderate, but lean to intorlenace, some people are moderate, but lean to too much tolerance.
And in my personal life, more than 20% are moderate and want to progress, and agree with me on most things, but that’s because I don’t talk and befirend just about anyone, and all my friends share my views, and they help me raise awareness (not about women at the moment to be honest, we’re raising awareness about how piracy and theft of copy rights should be treated as thievery, muslim imams say so too, but people find piracy so common they don’t conciously thing about it, perhaps women are next)
I said 20% as an estimate.
I must be mising something here,I take it you dont mean free music and movies that people make copies of for less money,because the millionaires who own the copyrights will already be taking care of that .And with people starving,abused women with no human rights and all the wars then cheap movies mean nothing,so what gives-what piracy do u mean?
Electronic piracy.
Yes, that’s what we meant Victoria, people stealing other people’s work and selling it, we’re dealing with this because it is VERY, and I mean VERY wide-spread, and people don’t relize it’s stealing, it’s thievery, all those people doing major sins uknowingly, men and women.
I know women’s rights are more important and it’s a more wide-spread problem, but we’re a 5-man team of highschool students, we’re struggling with pointing the obvious (about theft of copy rights and piracy) and stopping people from doing it, we’re not able to call for women’s rights right now, too many people are clung to their tribes’ false tradetions.
Oh.I see,I download free music but its legal,and films but I don’t sell them.Anyway,there are worse sins.I probably shouldn’t have smoked that joint.lol,but Im just kidding?????
Octo, you said “some people are moderate, but lean to too much tolerance.”
Oh, I wished we find a better word than ‘tolerance’. I wished we all used instead of ‘tolerate’, the word (and the effort to) “understand”. Understand the other, understand what is different than us, understand the ‘you’, make space for the ‘you’. But that would mean that the ‘I’ would occupy less space (both mental and physiscal). I assume Islam teaches this kind of understanding too? In the street version of Christianity is called ‘walking in someone else’s shoes’. It is very hard, if not impossible, but this is the biggest and harderst ‘mission’ there is: the mission of ‘you’.
People who sin, in your terms, Octo, are first and foremost people too.
Hey, can anybody explain what this means? My comment is awaiting moderation? Esra’a, I don’t know the rules that well. Can you explain?
In regards to my last sentence about sinners, I didn’t mean that we should embrace sins, rather that we should isolate sins from the people who fall pray to them. And I am talking ‘little people’ here, not Bush.
Oh, when I talk about sinners, they are people I imagine to prove a point, condemning someone to sin in islam is one of the greatest sins, and in islam once you feel sorry for your sins, and make it up for people who were hurt of it, and believe you will try your best not to do it again, you are sin-free and you are equal to someone who didn’t sin at all, sins don’t stain on you.
And imams are always taught (taught, they don’t do this all the time, which is a problem) to encourage people to work on what they have right now, before telling them to completely stop sinning, if that person is good to other people, or is an honest person, or so on, they focus on that first, with his sins out of the picture, until that person gains enough confidence to stop sins by himself/herself.
An example of the above, is a smoker, but prays 5 times a day, the imam tells him about the virtues of prayer in the mosque, and it’s good religous and psychological benifits, so that person starts going to the mosque, eventaully, he’ll notice that he is annoying people with the smell of smoke, and he’ll stop smoking before the prayer with some time, eventually, stopping completely.
And because we are lesser beings, we don’t have the full mercy of god, we condemn Bush, but even Bush isn’t too evil for god, Bush didn’t get out of god’s mercey, if Bush makes up for his sins (Alot of work, but anyway) and tries his hardest, his sins will be forgiven.
And by tolerance I didn’t mean understanding, understanding is good, I meant too much tolerance as a bad thing, no amount of understanding is bad, and it can’t be too much.
Octo, to be honest, I have a problem with the sentence “we are lesser beings”. Being humble is good, but being too humble (and many women have been (mis)guided to point 0 in this societry and in others) is not good, it doesn’t allow a woman to develop, it takes her directly from the craddle to the tomb.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we learn through mistakes, that LIFE is messy, that being a woman and being closer to the body, owning our bodies are things that cannot be judged as ‘clean’, nor as ‘unclean’, they cannot be judged in terms of ‘dark’ and ‘light’, right and wrong. I will try to make you see why not.
We create more in darkness (I forgot which famous writer said that); darkness can be good, nurturing. Not the darkness that the ‘righteous’ try to pour unto the ‘infidels’ (that’s pure evil, that is, lack of undrstanding and humility on their side). But ‘darkness’ as in whatever is close to the body and to nature — the darkness of life, not of death. The darkness of life that knows no shame and no guilt: like a seed that grows in the darkness of the soil, like a water-lily that is nurtured by the mud at the bottom of the water. Just like birth. Birth is very sexual, you see. Birth is messy. Birth is neither clean nor unclean. It just is what it is. With birth of new ideas is the same. The process is messy. Many writers, poets and visual artists do just that — write in the dark and paradoxically illuminate it by giving birth to a truth they did not know before; by giving birth to the unknown. That’s why the arts (especially Writing and Theatre) should not be considered sinful but rather cathartic or curageous. I talk about the unknown. Women are unknown to you, guys and many times in this mysoginistic world, they end up being unknown to themselves. And they are forced to carry on a legacy of guilt.
What I am trying to hint at here is that for too long women and the body have been associated with the dark (as in sinful) side (no wonder they are all dressed in black here) and that has to stop! A more natural, more mother-like version of the woman has to emerge! Do not forget that we give birth to men, do not forget how you guys come into this world! Women and sex are not unclean notions! There is a lot of abuse and wrong-doing in that area but no woman goes into an unclean (that is ABUSIVE) situation by choice. Rather, she goes there because she has been constantly and subtly abused by the other’s gaze. To me, — and I will say an enormity here–, a woman who enjoys prostitution is equal to a woman who accepts without questioning to be subservient to men, held hostage under a black veil and within a society that withholds her basic rights. What I mean is that neither the prostitute, nor this other humble woman are guilty — they are both victims of abuse. I cannot believe that any woman (anybody for that matter) desires to be abused. I believe each of us desires to be loved. It’s this drive for love that is used and abused by others and leads to unhealthy relationships supported by unhealthy societies.
If you knew more about the notions of the ‘unconscious’ in psychoanalysis (and here I am past Freud and Jung and closer to Lacan who connects psychoanalysis to semiology and linguistic theories), we would perhaps have a different discussion. You would be able to talk about the darkness of the sin and about sexual desire in different terms. It’s just another persective. There are so many other perspctives out there, that’s all I want to point out. And there are so many ways to healing, which is what we all strive for –praying being one of the most powerful ways to heal, if not the best. Because we do pray to G-d who is mercyful, right? As if we prayed to Mother. I love to hear the many names of Allah…especially the forgiving, mercyful one. In no way we should ever assume the role of the ‘righteous’ (as you said) and in this way put ourselves in the way of this relationship between the self and Other by calling them guilty, sinful and unlcean. And we shouldn’t preach either, unless we are preaching peace.
Do not misjudge! Withhold judgement! And that, Octo, was very hard for you when you talked to Victoria. Perhaps that’s why she called you sexist?
Correction (addition to what I said above): “…owning our bodies are things that cannot be judged as ‘clean’, nor as ‘unclean’, they cannot be judged in terms of ‘dark’ and ‘light’, right and wrong. I will try to make you see why not. THEY CAN AND SHOULD BE THOUGHT OF IN TERMS OF HEALTHY or UNHEALTHY.” But of course, you can oppose what I’m saying here.
Octo said: “by tolerance I didn’t mean understanding, understanding is good, I meant too much tolerance as a bad thing, no amount of understanding is bad, and it can’t be too much.”
A quote from U Thant, 3rd secretary of the UN might be insightful here:
“As a Budhist, I was trained to be tolerant of everything except intolerance”
The moral compass is formed in each of us when we are treated with respect, with faireness and empathy and we learn to be intolerant to intolerance. Do you know how many times I told students: I will not tolerate this or that? But never, I will not tolerate YOU on the basis of gender, race, religious or sexual orientation, social status, or health condition.
“And I’m talking about little people here, not Bush”
I said we are lesser beings, because most of us can’t forgive Bush, I simply can’t, he went too far and he’s consistant, but the greater being, God, is merciful, so even Bush’s actions aren’t “too great” or “too evil” for God, and even him can be forgiven.
And women and sex are very clean notions, and in islam, sex with your wife or husband is considered a good deed! (And it accounted as a good deed in the day of judgement), because you don’t allow the need for them to seek the unclean solutions, sex outside the marrige and such.
Oh no, I didn’t mean torelance to women, that’s insane, I meant general torelance to people’s actions, tolerance/intolerance to the sick guy who waits outside the pharmacy in prayer times, tolerance/intolerance to the guy that cruises around the girls’ highschool to harass them, tolerance/intolerance to a poor person who was forced to steal because he wasn’t getting any of the donated money, tolerance/intolerance for free speech.
And yes, there should be some level of intorelance to free speech, and not totally removing the limits, let people talk about causes and how to improve and current problems however they want, don’t let ignorants abuse it and be destructive (I read websites on how sexually abusing children shouldn’t be a crime and we should allow adults to marry children, that was disqusting, also the people who call for allowing drugs and so on, that’s abuse of free speech).
Gosh, I see your point when you say that you’ve seen sites promoting the idea that “sexually abusing children shouldn’t be a crime and we should allow adults to marry children” — what a crazy world, when abuse is not only tolerated but allowed to polute public speech!
You also talk about “the people who call for allowing drugs, that’s abuse of free speech.” That’s not abuse of free speech, it’s just an unhealthy request, very easy to be proven as such.
We have to use our hearts and our minds and take position against abuse. I guess free speech can be abused too… In this case, in the adult world, you don’t censor free speech, you speak up against it. Sick ideas are just another kind of pollution ! In this sense we can use the word ‘clean’ devoid of any pejorative sense: a clean environment, a clean social environment, a clean learning environment, clean minds, clean hearts, yes.
Gosh, I see your point when you say that you’ve seen sites promoting the idea that “sexually abusing children shouldn’t be a crime and we should allow adults to marry children” — what a crazy world, when abuse is not only tolerated but allowed to polute public speech!
You also talk about “the people who call for allowing drugs, that’s abuse of free speech.” That’s not abuse of free speech, it’s just an unhealthy request, very easy to be proven as such.
We have to use our hearts and our minds and take position against abuse. I guess free speech can be abused too… In this case, in the adult world, you don’t censor free speech, you speak up against sick ideas. Sick ideas are just another kind of pollution ! In this sense we can use the word ‘clean’ devoid of any pejorative sense: a clean environment, a clean social environment, a clean learning environment, clean minds, clean hearts, yes.
Sorry for the repetition and for the numerous typo-s! Technical problems,I guess.
Hello all,
I stumbled on this forum while googling ( yeah i know) ‘expats in saudi’. My topic / question may not be appropriate here but i couldnt help but trying to get what seems to be wide personal views (saudis and westerners)
I and a few of my colleagues have been invited by a fellow graduate to take up positions in his father’s company. his dad has suggested coming to see for ourselves to decide if the way of life is for us or not.
All this talk abt westerners, im british by passport but african by origin, does this mean we aint got a chance seeing as the saudis’ themselves aint got jobs and the ‘blue eyed westerner’ has it all ?
octo mentioned abt being harrased for wearing jeans ? should i unbraid and cut my hair b4 i visit ? ive read abt lashings and imprisonments by the religious police, wot are the boundaries for young men ?
Advice please!! I am only asking this because there is a mixture of gender and races(north south east west southwest northeast…..)
Hi Don Dapper, I welcome you..
To answer a few of your questions..
Religious police might harass Saudi guys for wearing pants but not usually foreigners. It also depends on which part of Saudi you are staying in, if Jeddah or eastern region.. no worries, you have no problem. But if you are staying in Riyadh, it is more conservative here.
About your hair.. I hope one of the guys living in Saudi will tell you more about it. As a woman, I have seen more and more SAudi guys wearing their hair longer, I don’t know if they get arrested for that.. I think you might be asked to have it cut by religious police, but it has been a fashion between the youth these days to have long hair ( so many )
About your boundries.. read more about Saudi Arabia (or ask your friend).. basically.. no drinking in public (some do in the privacy of homes, religious police may break into homes but not into compounds) no flirting with girls in public, no talking to girls, do not have a none related woman in a car with you..
You have to have you (iqama) ID card with you all the time.
The climate is too hot.. bring light clothes BUT not shorts. It is not acceptable for a man to reveal his body in public..
body and facial piercing is not acceptable for men
If you have specific questions.. don’t hesitate..( it is another world! you might enjoy it here.. you would never know until you try)
Here I am again.The daydreamer.Back here in the UK i will be going on strike next week.its irrelevant to this forum apart from the fact that its the little people against a greedy establishment in this case and its a s tho no matter what rights are in place thaere seems to be a bad place within us all that wants more than everybody else.High up the ladder its deemed as ‘clever’ to try to trick and twist words to make us see theirs is the right way and in a couple of hundred years will our ancestors be shocked by how primitive and greedy life is here ie the world.I do many thinds that to many would be sinful but which I see as fun,but I endeavour to be a better person all the time not in a religious way ‘but in a kinder way.In fact I already am,I used to feel a lot of hostility and anger towards the muslims in the UK,to my shame and then to the new immigrants from Poland etc,but this forum has changed me,reallly,I feel it.I seem to have no point,I will wafffle no more,till I know what I mean to say lol.
Fascinating discussion: I’m grateful to all the contributors.
Here’s something that caught me totally by surprise. I’d heard about al-Bulaiwi’s death in custody, but I’d had no idea there were formal charges against the morals police.
news link: may not last long