Women and Human Rights ..Should They Differ Between Cultures and Societies!!
June 2nd, 2007Lastnight, late in the night actually, I was sitting bored on the computer, and suddenly my dear friend Franzi-who I always enjoy talking to- from Germany, signed in on the MSN, I was really happy, as I was really bored and needed some company!
She lives in a town near Berlin, where the G8 summit is going to take place soon. She and I met in Jordan at a conference at the United Nations University/International Leadership Institute, and became good friends after that.
We talked about interesting issues regarding women and human rights that I wanted to share with you, for that I took her permission to post our conversation here.
I would really love hear what you guys think, and also I would also love to hear what you guys think about the problem with education in the Arab world that I talked about in my previous post.
Blue! says:
Fraaaanziiii
Blue! says:
heyyyy
Franzi says:
heyyy
Franzi says:
u r not out?
Franzi says:
it’s friday
Blue! says:
I’m bored out of my ass
Blue! says:
thanks for signing in, I needed company
Franzi says:
what’s up
Franzi says:
nothing to do?
Blue! says:
yeah, Jordan can be PRETTY boring sometimes my friend!
Franzi says:
lol
Franzi says:
here everybody’s partying
Franzi says:
but i have seminar tomorrow
Blue! says:
seminar!, about what?
Franzi says:
islamic law
Franzi says:
actually interesting but this one is boring
Blue! says:
aha, poor you!!, spending Saturday at a seminar, it’s Saturday ,I’m sure Berlin will be rockin tomorrow
Franzi says:
sure
Franzi says:
there are demonstrations allover
Blue! says:
oh why?
Blue! says:
G8
Blue! says:
?
Franzi says:
actually my mum is going to the G8
Franzi says:
yeah
Franzi says:
did u finish ya report about this intern years ago
Franzi says:
?
Blue! says:
yeah I did, then wrote about WEF on the blog I told you about yesterday check out my post
Franzi says:
WEF?
Blue! says:
World Economic Forum
Franzi says:
ah ok
Blue! says:
www.mideastyouth.org
Franzi says:
so all CIEE kids have left?
Blue! says:
not all of them…but most of them
Franzi says:
have u heard something from nikita?
Blue! says:
I e-mailed him, but he never replied backïŒ
Franzi says:
busy guy
Blue! says:
I believe so
Franzi says:
reading ya blog
Blue! says:
Cool, let me know what you think
Franzi says:
about the first part
Franzi says:
u r absolutely right
Franzi says:
unfortunately
Blue! says:
about what?
Franzi says:
education
Franzi says:
i mean i only know about jordan
Franzi says:
in lebanon it’s a little different
Franzi says:
but from what i’ve seen in jordan u r definetly right
Franzi says:
did u fall asleep?
Blue! says:
no I didn’t , I was giving you time to read more
Blue! says:
are you done?
Franzi says:
yes
Blue! says:
I really loved the example Queen Rania gave on prejudices
Blue! says:
coz it’s very true
Franzi says:
i disagree
Blue! says:
why?
Blue! says:
that’s fine, I would love to hear what you have
Franzi says:
i don’t think that children are free of prejudices
Franzi says:
as far as i remember i already had prejudices when i was a kid and we were even worse against outsider e.g.
Blue! says:
well, I went to an international school, with Jews, Blacks, and Chinese, we never thought any of us was different until we became teens, we were different but yet, we learnt how to respect each other.
Franzi says:
hm…
Franzi says:
i am not really talking about racism
Franzi says:
we only were germans
Franzi says:
more about differences in social classes or characteristics
Franzi says:
somehow we were categorized
Blue! says:
well, it exists in every society, it’s not exclusive to Germans
Franzi says:
sure
Franzi says:
just I don’t believe that kids don’t categorize
Franzi says:
and actually kids can be very mean when they dislike someone
Franzi says:
maybe because they act directly
Franzi says:
without politeness
Blue! says:
oh come on, don’t be judgemental
Franzi says:
lol
Franzi says:
but u r defintely right that international schools etc. help to prevent prejudices
Blue! says:
yes, but they have negative effects as well
Franzi says:
i went to a mixed german-german school – that exists as well – and it stopped us from categorizing between east and west germans
Franzi says:
like what?
Blue! says:
well, in my case, I feel a bit alienated from my own culture, I feel I have different interests and ways of thinking than my friends who went to Jordanian schools
Franzi says:
yeah sure but this is always like that
Blue! says:
but it’s very hard when , when they are the mainstream and I’m not
Blue! says:
it’s a hard feeling believe me
Franzi says:
i mean, i didn’t go to an international school but every step i made abroad has changed me and i am different from germans who maybe went a few times for summer vacation to spain etc.
Franzi says:
i can imagine
Franzi says:
in my case it’s easier because the ppl who study with me do all such crazy things
Blue! says:
of course it is, you grew up in the west, I grew up in the east , but was sent to a western school, it really creates a conflict within you
Franzi says:
i can imagine
Blue! says:
let me give you an example
Blue! says:
when some of your friends think that you’re bad because you allow your sister to have male friends, because you believe that’s her right and you have no right to interfere with her life, that creates a conflict within you, coz you know you’re right and they are wrong, but had I been sent to a normal school, I would have thought the same as them I believe, and I wouldn’t have had that conflict
Franzi says:
i know that
Franzi says:
but whatever you should do what is best for your sister
Blue! says:
no I just gave an example
Franzi says:
and i know exactly what u mean
Blue! says:
and I can’t argue with them , because society stands by them
Franzi says:
cause me, as a person from the west, would say that she has, for sure, the right ta have male friends… because it’s my education … but who decides which culture and traditions is right? i mean everybody lives in a society with it’s rules and values
Blue! says:
but if I was sent to a normal school, I would have thought the same, banned my sister from choosing her friends, and then the society would have been satisfied, right?
Franzi says:
yes
Franzi says:
it’s a dilemma and you will always live with it
Blue! says:
well, then you support that idea , that if society decides that women should be covered from head to toes , then women should just obey
Franzi says:
it’s a difficult question
Blue! says:
no..you just said :” but who decides which culture and traditions is right? i mean everybody lives in a society with it’s rules and values”
Blue! says:
which means that you support that idea
Franzi says:
i remember when my mum came to turkey for the first time she was surprised how happy turkish women are … who are always represented as supressed women
Franzi says:
yes
Franzi says:
that’s what i said
Blue! says:
ok!
Franzi says:
but what is right for the whole society doesn’t have to be right for an individual
Blue! says:
it’s really strange coming from a european woman
Franzi says:
lol
Franzi says:
why
Blue! says:
Because Feminism is strong in Europe, and you support women to have the well to choose how to dress, how to behave, and who to befriend
Franzi says:
i support this definetely because this is the society I live in … it was developed in this way, i am educated in it
Franzi says:
but what is right for me doesn’t have to be right for everybody else… another question is, if not all societies live through the same developments. when i think about women rights a century ago in europe it was very different, most women were not allowed to vote yet etc. so maybe all societies will change in the same direction but who knows …
Franzi says:
do u know who has chosen the image they put on the mideastyouth-site?
Blue! says:
so basically , you are just saying that we are retarded and backward , so it will take us a century until we reach your level of women rights!!
Franzi says:
no
Blue! says:
Franzi, I’m disappointed in you my friend
Franzi says:
i knew that u would say exactly this
Franzi says:
lol
Franzi says:
actually i have no clue where my dear arab sisters wanna go to and it’s their choice
Franzi says:
but from my point of view women and men are equal
Blue! says:
what you were just saying loudly makes the universal declaration of human rights, just a bunch of crap, coz what you are saying that human rights are adjusted based on each society’s way of thinking
Blue! says:
simply means the human rights are not universal
Franzi says:
the question is if we are an universal society
Blue! says:
we are not, but every society should ideally insure the application of the universal declaration of human rights on it’s individuals
Franzi says:
this is a very long discussion and theoretical. it was discussed many times. u can say that human rights are universal but it doesn’t change anything for someone living in the third world or in the slums of Paris being in big trouble. but my deepest believe is that changes have to come from people. too many people in this world are too silent to fight for their rights and…
Franzi says:
to be realistic, the western society isn’t interested in such a progress in any developing country because then they would have to share
Blue! says:
now we are talking
Blue! says:
now , we agree
Franzi says:
and yawning
Blue! says:
it’s ok, it was my pleasure as always chatting to you my dear friend
Blue! says:
good night
Franzi says:
u too
Franzi says:
i guess i will mix up the seminar’s subject tomorrow
Franzi says:
have a good night
Blue! says:
well, try to address such issues, they are important, women everywhere should have the same rights ,fight for that , you are a woman for God’s sake, I’m a man , and it appears I’m fighting for it more than you do!!
Franzi says:
just i don’t believe that i am – as a western woman – entitled to fight for my sisters’ rights… they have to move … unfortunately this fight has to be fought in every society. i can’t make another society change because i am not part of it. supporting is something else.
Franzi says:
don’t you think so?
Blue! says:
you are absolutely right, but you are not even supporting!!
Franzi says:
what do u mean?
Blue! says:
you think society has the right to cover up women from head to toes just coz it’s values and traditions
Franzi says:
no u got me wrong
Blue! says:
you literally said that Franzi
Franzi says:
i meant that as long as the woman doesn’t feel wrong it’s very difficult to change and i wonder if someone else is entitled to change something which seems to be right for her … just an example .. i talked to a turkish girl. she told me that she was used to wear the scarf and when she went first to university she was shocked because she had to take it off. she said she felt like naked.
Franzi says:
but from my point of you education is the key
Blue! says:
Then, you got me wrong!!
Franzi says:
as you wrote if you learn how to think independantly you will ask yourself such questions
Franzi says:
seems to be a big misunderstanding
Franzi says:
maybe because of time
Blue! says:
as much as I support women to have the right not to wear hijab, I do support their right to wear it if they want to, what I support is absolute freedom of choice
Franzi says:
ok i totally agree and to conclude… to have the absolute freedom of choice you need to know how to choose
Blue! says:
so if they believe it’s the right thing , then that’s good, as long as they choose to wear it not their father or their brother, husband or even the government
Franzi says:
well done
Franzi says:
so yalla let’s educate the world
Franzi says:
you should go to France
Blue! says:
hehe, one last thing, would you mind if I brought up this discussion to the blog?
Franzi says:
the French had some good ideas about this stuff
Franzi says:
how?
Blue! says:
like to tell the story of this discussion, in the form of a conversation, I could keep you ananymous if you want, but who knows you anyways on the blog!
Franzi says:
i just read through it again and we had a misunderstanding because we were talking on different levels
Franzi says:
i don’t mind
Blue! says:
yeah , I know, and that’s what’s interesting, that’s why I wanna post it
Franzi says:
ok
Blue! says:
thanks, I won’t keep you any longer, good night
Franzi says:
u too
Franzi says:
read u soon
Franzi says:
was good talking to u
Blue! says:
always my pleasure
Franzi says:
nighty
Blue! says:
nighty
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AWESOME topic and conversation. Franzi made some important points especially when she said:
Some call this “cultural relativism,” which many people are against… a lot of western feminists claim that Muslim women in strict societies are ignorant of their own oppression, and that they are so ignorant to the point of “happiness” of their own unfortunate state.
In turn, certain Muslim feminists oppose this way of thinking, claiming that the Western feminists are actually insulting them because they think that the hijab is oppression. To some Muslim women they would describe their hijab as liberation. On the Al Arabiya channel some time ago it was a really interesting debates amongst multicultural feminists on this topic… and that is how they got to the topic of “universal human rights.”
Some said it’s impossible because we all have different values, traditions, and cultures, some said like Blue here that there should be some values that stays truly universal and must be enforced within each society, something I strongly agree with too. Basically that the women maintain the right to choose and to have her opinion and to live freely no matter what the traditions and cultures or religion is. And freedom of speech is another thing that should always be maintained no matter what our cultures are too.
In fact many Muslims in the Arab world will tell you that they are not in support of total freedom of speech… when Kareem got arrested, many bloggers (even the most open minded ones!) refused to sign his petition simply because of what he said about Islam. They said this type of thing should be outlawed. Now, this is not something that can ever gain from… this is a sad mentality to have… it’s not in favor of progress or education at all!
Franzi’s point can both be constructive and destructive depending on how it is applied… if I see Afghan girls being forced into marriage at 10, I will fight against it. But maybe some other Afghan woman will tell me, “this is our society and in our society you should accept that this is our way of life.” That is an example of destructiveness… personally I can’t approve of people to commit these nasty practices simply because I wish to respect their “values.” I can respect reasonable decisions but not if it violates human rights.
But on the other hand…
If an American lady comes here and says, “you are wearing a hijab and thus you are very oppressed, men probably lead you in your life and you’re not independent or intelligent at all” of course this is a bad judgment because she doesn’t understand my personal decision, my religion, and my traditional and societal values. And if I tell her … “you need to respect this decision because I am responsible for it,” and if she actually learns how to respect women who wear a hijab and sees them as strong and independent rather than oppressed, that is an example of constructiveness. (But only of course if the hijab was a personal decision, I don’t agree that it should ever be enforced, this should also be fought against in our societies.)
In any case I enjoyed this conversation, and am really glad you posted it… it really mentions a lot of important things, debates that we all should be having.
Thanks for sharing!
its nice, but you know what mohammad, my advice is, i wouldnt recommend copying and pasting the whole thing, in fact a summary will do it.
I didnt have the chance to complete it all
Hello,
This was a very interesting conversation, it was nice of you sharing it with us..
It is hard for women here in the east, especially in countries like mine (Saudi Arabia) to choose what is right for them since they have been spoon fed and brain washed all their lives into believing certain customs, and on the other hand, as Esra’a mentioned I don’t want to have a westerner telling me how I should live my life ( no offence ) simply because we are different and many would consider hijab as being oppressed as u have mentioned which is not true. although, the west has many influences on us already..
Opening and broadening our education is the key for freedom, rights and making the choice that suits each individual.
I don’t agree that a person should follow the culture he/she lives in.. there are certain traditions that I would like to keep and carry on to my children BUT there are so many so called traditions that do not make any sense to me and I would want stopped.
We are all different, and that is the beauty of mankind, can you imagine how life would be if we were all alike? We should learn from the differences in all of us and take what we think is right.. Life is a never ending learning experience.. that’s how I look at it.
Here is my take on this.I have always lived in England.The only thing I know about women in the east is from the media.Before I read this page I read women presenters will be be-headed if they are immodest.I cant remember which country,and I only read it 5mins ago.So its not a tradition is it?We have a lot of people from Pakistan etc where I live and they are really sexist.We fought hard for our rights.They come in their thousands to live here and totally disrespect us.Why is that?
Hey Esra’a, Bashar , and Rasha..
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me on my post, I really appreciate it, especially after I had written a long post on the 10 billion$ fund launched at the World Economic Forum to enhance education and human development in the Arab world, and hoped that I would receive feedback from MEY readers and members on such an important topic, which unfortunately didn’t happen…
Well, to respond to what you guys have said in your comments, I’m really glad first that you liked my post and the conversation between me and Franzi.
Allow me to disagree with you Rasha, that women in the east are not ready to decide for themselves, they are, and they should.
70% of students at the University of Jordan are women that indicates , how educated women are in our society, they can certainly take decisions, plan their future and be successful.
If we keep thinking that women in our Arab eastern societies are not ready to depend on themselves and take actions, if you we don’t believe in them , they’ll never be ready.
They may make mistakes , when they are granted the right to choose and decide, but they will learn from those mistakes.
But I agree with you that we shouldn’t wait westerners to tell us how to live our lives and how improve civil rights in our societies, we should take the initiative and find our own way of improving them.
I also the loved the part in your comment where you said :” I don’t agree that a person should follow the culture he/she lives in…” , and I can’t agree with you more on this.
And Esra’a, I would really love to introduce you and Franzi to each other oneday
Dear Victoria,
Obviously, you and I were writing our comments at the very same time, for that I apologize for not mentioning in the thank you part. so I thank you for your comment.
I have been to England myself and absolutely loved, I’ve always been fond of England as I studied at an English school and did my GCSE and GCE.
Whenever I hear of Pakistanis in England, I can’t help but remember a line from a film for Robin Williams called (Mrs.Doubtfire) , where Robin Williams was doing a voice over for puppet in one scene and asked the puppet :” What language do they speak there in England?” , the puppet replied : Pakistani, which is funny because there is no such thing as a Pakistani language, coz they speak Ordu in Pakistan.
Anyways, the problem regarding the integration of Muslim immigrants into western societies is quite difficult, I was in Denmark last September at conference dedicated to discussing ways of integrating Muslim immigrants into the Danish-very liberal-society.
We spent 2 weeks , and couldn’t come up with concrete results, it’s difficult because , western societies have the right to preserve their culture and lifestyle, and the immigrants have no right to change those, as immigrants they should adapt to them, however, the immigrants are cultured , they have heritage and life style, that they should be entitled of keeping.
So , as you see here, bothsides have rights , and those rights should maintained and respected, which creates a dilemma, because the rights are in conflict!
I hope I didn’t confuse you with my reply, and thank you again for sharing your comment.
Thanks for your reply.Its a first for me,usually get ignored from eastern/muslim folk.They dont have the right to keep their lifestyle if they emigrate to a country that is liberal and equal.would I get to keep mine in Saudi Arabia?Why go to Denmark if you disagree with their culture?I dont understand.
I have to comment again Mohammad,
So many women in Saudi are educated, they go to schools some go through university or college. But that is not exactly what I mean here.. women should have more knowledge about their rights as human beings, as half of society. Without knowing these rights they will not be able to fight for them.. got it?
Women here, even educated ones are relying on men in most issues because this is how it is here.. Women do not know much about legal matters to fight for their own rights.. and so on
This is the kind of education I was thinking of.
Another comment,
Why is it that people look at others through black or white lenses? As I mentioned before, we have to accept our differences and get along, life is not black or white, there are multiple rays and colors between these two shades that make life so versatile..
Victoria, don’t use the word eastern to describe Muslims, because Christianity, Judaism and Islam all got the same foundations. Unlike other Eastern religions and culture, Islam is more Western than Eastern.
They have all the right to keep their traditions if it doesn’t go against the laws of the nation they immigrate to.
They can disagree with their culture, but if they don’t preach hate or break any laws, no one should do anything to them. It’s their rights under the laws of the nation to respect their views if it is peacefull. And Denmark and the Western nations call themselves liberal and tolerant, if you say either it’s my way or no way then you are not liberal and tolerant. You are the same as the radical Muslims.
jina- u make a point that foreigners can enter a country without a full support for all of a countirs values and mores,so long as they stay within the law and do not push others within their group to hewn to the old ways if they do not choose to However, the strongest point , which u did not comment upon regarded the fact that noone who is christian or jewish has their rights in saudi arabia. in fact, a nonislamic person can be arrested just for setting foot in certain parts ofMecca.
Limpia, so you take Saudi Arabia as a valid representation of Islam or the Arab world? You must be kidding me.
Its own citizens don’t have rights. You expect others to?!
Your example doesn’t prove anything but Saudi’s corruption as a state. Nothing else.
I realize that islam does differ say in saudi arabi from other places ie indonesia, malaysia- i wasnt actually making a point, at least not an analogy as u seem to think. ( i think it so much bothers me that Saudi arabia does not even allow a jew in its country , i felt a need to mention it! sorry)
i read alot and certainly see Lebanon as different from Kenya etc.
Saudi arabia- the place where the Quran was born, a desert environment, a time long ago, with different mores and circumstances. Is Saudi arabia closest to the intent of the Quran? or is it a corrupted society that doesnt represent the values of the Quran?or only some of them? The saudi’s money seems to be sending it’s version near and far, only to be tempered perhaps by the natural inclination and culture of the society.
Saudi Arabia is a bit of this and that. This country believes it is the closest intent of the Quran, although politics play a role in what is said and done, Many religious sheikhs are manipulated into stating what the government wants especially after 9/11 to have control over the extremists and fanatics.
There are so many layers that you have to address here, it is not that simple.
For example,
The government has given all mosques certain topics they can preach on and an emphasis on what is taboo, politics is taboo.
This country manipulates religion to defend its social structure, it takes the extreme side and forgets that Islam is here to make our lives easier… that’s what I think.
I can see my generation is suffering from the shaky grounds we stand on, we have defects in the family structure, in a woman’s identity, the fall backs of segregation between man and woman, the educational sytem, the sharp differences in socioeconomical status, the poor get poorer and the rich stay rich! the corruption, the lack of motivation… etc ( why did you get me started? I do get depressed when I think of all aspects!)
I hope that answers few of your questions.
Hi Rasha- thanks for the reply-sorry to depress u- u listen, apparently to religious doctrine with an open, questioning mind and probably know a bit about other religions. In the west Comparative religions is a basic college course taken by many. When i went to college there was absolutely no antipathy toward Islam. It was seen as the others. yet we didnt know it was so all encompassing in its hold on its adherents, more so than others in most cases. Is that a political thing or is it the nature of the Quran, since it is the absolute word of god, which I dont think other religious books claim to be.
Dear Limpia,
Islam is a religion that embraces all aspects of life. whether it is social,personal, legal, economical… This is the nature of Islam..it guides people in their day to day life by going back to both Quran and Hadeth.
I have had a long day and Im more than aware that my mood is not good so I’ll sleep before I reply to comment about being like a radical muslim because im certain that making comments on forums is not an accurate description of how they behave when they dont like something,is it.
I wish I cud delete what I just wrote,it was antagonistic and I dont want to be.Sorry.Goodnight.
Hi.Im awake now.I am still confused tho.Denmark kindly allows thousands of muslims to emmigrate there.The muslims want changes .whats wrong with Denmark staying as it is?Its obviously better than wherever they came from or they wouldn.t leave in such vast numbers.Not many Danes are going to muslim countries.and if they did,would they be treated well?
Victoria,
Danes are treated in Saudi Arabia better than the Saudi’s are. They get higher salaries than Saudi’s do, most foreigners live in lovely compounds fitted with the best facilities where they make their own little social community,they are isolated from the rest of the saudi society to feel comfortable.
I have seen foreigners hating to leave Saudi Arabia (can you imagine?) because they are totally isolated from what goes on in Saudi society.
I only know what ive read on MY about Saudi.It appears to be a horrible place.Women can’t drive,wow,the cheeky ********.How do they get away with it.Its really shocked me.I think all the women should leave.I have one spare room.Well its a start!
Victoria it might lack its many many rights but it’s not a horrible place… here due to our frustrations, censorship, and taboos, many of us only focus on the bad and grave aspects. But deep inside we all have a strong attachment, love, and respect for our countries and cultures.
Reading various subjucts on MY,I am reminded that my way of expressing things and the way in which I communicate is so very very different and I promise you that now I am aware of it I will try to tone it down as I dont think Im saying that which you are hearing . Not literally,well to be direct you need to know I have a great deal of respect for you all.I love to read and learn more about the lives of others and some of the things I read deeply touch me .Ive never had to face anything like which I read and Im sure that theres another side which is not all so gloomy.Try to remember this if it happens again,with lots of respect Victoria.
Blue,
Being at an international school is not a cause of feelig that you are different, may be it has its effect but the main influence of ur personality is from your home and your family, if your family used to let your sister has male friends so its ok and your own society will accept that, it’s not true if u imagine that u may satisfy all people in sociaty at all, difference is a healthy issue in socities.
About women rights , you post an example of wearing hijab, Blue wearing hijab is a religious issue, may be some people take it as a tradition but it’s totally wrong, if any girl obliged to put hijab to satisfy tradions and customs so here we can say that she must not put it, hijab is a mean to satisfy Allah.
To conclude , if we want to raise the women rights we have to concern her right of thinking and to take her decisions from her mind and her religion .
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. Although it is subordinate to Sharia it does speak very strongly of equal rights for women in education and other areas.