Muslim extremism overshadows Muslim good in Malaysia
June 7th, 2007I know that when anyone who is not Muslim questions Muslim practices, they come under attack as being “anti-Muslim.” Knowing that, however, and having been accused of that in the past because I have criticized unethical and immoral behavior by Muslims — as I also criticize the same by Christians and Jews — I intend to write about it anyway.
Five years ago, a woman named Lina Joy, a Muslim, decided she wanted to convert to Christianity, so she could marry her Christian fiance and have children. Today, she is hiding, fearful that Muslim extremists in Malaysia, want to kill her for apostacy, the act of converting from one religion to another. In Malaysia, apostacy is illegal, as it is in other Muslim countries. In fact, Malaysia is a Muslim majority country, but it has Christians and Hindus there too. But Malaysia, like most Muslim countries, apply one standard for themselves and another for non-Muslim citizens.
If Joy continues, she will be imprisoned and forced to take religious retraining — or, to be more accurate, brainwashing punishment. Muslims insist that the most she will get is three years imprisonment, and that death is not warranted. But death is in fact being threatened against her by Muslims in her society. Imprisonment, as absurd and outrageous as it is even if for “only” three years, is wrong. But the death threats are intolerable. Yet, they are ebing tolerated.
What really angers me the most about this case is that many Muslims who are moderate don’t speak out against this immoral and unethical conduct. Muslims should denounce not just the imposition of religious laws on people living in Muslim countries, but also the death threats that are being made openly against her and against the male attorney who is trying to represent her in court. Their lives are being threatened. Is that ethical Muslim conduct?
And, what do Muslims say when a Christian woman marries a Muslim man? The woman MUST convert to Islam, and there are no prohibitions for that.
Many Muslims are quick to argue that Islam has always held Christians and Jews in a special covenant, describing them as “people of the book.” Muslims say that Christians and Jews have always had special protections under Islamic law in Islamic countries and under Muslim rulers. What they don’t mention is that for every kind gesture, there have been also incidents of violence that have also taken place. Tolerance is not the weighing of averages. You are either fully tolerant or intolerant. There is no halfway when it comes to tolerance, ethics, principles or morality. You either are or you are not.
Yet, how do Muslims respond to the charge that is now being made that they are hypocrites. That they claim that they are so benevolent to Christians and Jews, yet they are intolerant of numerous cases such as that of Lina Joy. Lina Joy’s circumstances are not unique. In fact, many Muslims who wish to convert to Christianity face threats and intimidations.
It is wrong. It is immoral. Muslims should stand up next to the principle that they constantly insist represents their religion, that they are a religion or peace and tolerance.
What is happening to Lina Joy and thousands of other Muslims who have tried to convert to other religions is wrong and it makes Muslims look like hypcrites when they allow this kind of persecution to continue. Are they that insecure of the power of their religion that they have to impose restrictions to prevent people from leaving? Are they that hypocritical that they deny Muslims the right to covnertm, but encourage Christians and Muslims to convert to Islam?
Intolerance plagues every community. But when Muslims only apply the charge of intolerance to Jews (in Israel for example, criticizing Israeli policies as being racist against Muslims and Christians) or to Christians like me who happen to raise these issues — it makes them look hypocritical.
No one has the right to claim they are above criticism. But I expect many Muslims to avoid addressing the real issue and respond by attacking me the way they have in the past. I am not anti-Muslim like Glenn Beck, Don Imus or the Queen of anti-Muslim hate, Michelle Malkin. But I do believe there is credence in the right of people to challenge Islamic hypocrisy when Muslims, like everyone else, crosses the line.
Lina Joy deserves our support. I hope more Muslims will join me in expressing that support.
– Ray Hanania
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Thanks 4 writing this.
I’m a Malaysian. I know what actually happen in this case. What have been decide by the judge is the best answer for Malaysia. They don’t want to create more problems on religion issues.
So, I would say, Lina Joy don’t deserve my support.
I’m a lucky ex-Malaysian that ESCAPED from Malaysia. Malay government use religion to control their people so the top 2% can (continue to) reap all the benefit. By doing that it creates a bunch of zombies that can’t think and pray to their ‘god’ n times a day, so the judge in the case can’t do anything even if they know what is so call civil right which I doubt it. “Freedom of religion” is clearly written in the constitution, you don’t need half a brain to interpret that, and you have people like the previous commenter “the judge gave the best answer for Malayisa…” bullshit by a screwed brain zombie.
Religion is what you WANT to believe in, not something that someone put in to your head. All religions are crazy.
Proud Malaysian guy, I think you state that religions are crazy because people use them as tools and methods of social control… if people actually LEFT other people alone and let people believe what they want to believe, then it wouldn’t be regarded as crazy. Religion is so personal that no one has the right to intervene and tell us what we should believe. That’s our decision to make, nobody else’s.
Ray what you said is totally acceptable, but there’s something that I doubt about, I asked a couple of people (those who knew about Islam) about apostasy, and they said that if you find it for real that another religion is better for you, and you really believe in that, you have the right to change your religion, but as you said apostasy is forbidden by islamic countries (like here in Iran).
I am a muslim by name, but I, myself, didn’t decide about my religion!
“Anyone”, you’re not thinking for yourself, therefor you ARE, like Proud NonMuslim Malaysian said, a Zombie (and I mean no offense), or a sheep!
People are better than animals because they can think for themselves, to decide what’s right for them, not for other’s to choose what’s right for everyone!
Again no offense, but that’s what I think!!
Religion is a decision, you have to pick your own religion, not your parents, a person might be a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew… etc by name, but inside they might be an Atheist who doesn’t even believe in God! You can’t get into people’s minds!
I don’t want to be known as an “anti-Muslim”, like Ray said, but religion is a choice not something you have to do!
Poor woman.Theres a distinct lack of love.Too many reasons to kill,always an excuse as to why its ok.Intolerant or intolerable.
Hello Ray.
In the first, I think you argument contains only elements of truth; however it is a fallacious argument in its entirety.
But before I indulge myself into demolishing your argument, allow me this preamble that would add another dimension to your argument as well as mine.
I have no problem, might I add, that Linda Joy embraces Christianity, not that I agree with her in that endeavor; however I am against her persecution by anyone.
It is my opinion, however, that one, anyone, can convert into a monkey if he wishes to do so without having to fear persecution by the state or individuals.
Having said the above, remember this man from Chicago who converted into Christianity out of Islam, I know you know whom I am talking about, and was embraced by some Christian churches, some were Arab churches and went on a speaking tour to denounce Islam, writing venomously about the prophet Mohammed, and even making money out of his vindictive speeches. What does that tell me about those Christians that sponsor hatred and evil intent by someone so to spread division and hatred against Islam and Muslims?
This man went on to write a substandard book filled with forth-grade level anti Islam trash. We know that he did all that for money. But why was he sponsored by those churches! That constitutes a frontal assault on Muslims beliefs without provocation, in my opinion
Your supposition that all Arab and Muslim countries act uniformly and in unison when it comes to non-Muslim persons is indeed inaccurate supposition.
Lebanon for example is majority Muslim country, 3/4th of its population are Muslims, yet half of the parliament is by “ law†Christians, and the same law stipulates that the president of the country has to always be Christian, yet you don’t see “ Muslim†voices rise in protest against this arrangement.
Islam and Muslim societies are generally and historically open and tolerant. But at the present, extremism and anti-Christian feelings are more a recent aberrations and are due to the conflicts with west in the past century in which the west had and still is dominating politically and economically all of the Muslim countries. What I am trying to say is that anti-Christian feelings are not an inherent aspect of Islam or Muslims, but a natural yet prejudiced and unhealthy growth to acts of aggression to a “perceived Christian†west.
Ironically, if you survey the world conflicts today, you will find that most of those who are victims and doing the dying are overwhelmingly Muslims. Not Christians.
Historically Muslim states had not abused its Christian citizens or treated them as second class citizens simply because they were “Christians†for there is no stipulation, none what so ever in the Islamic canon that non Muslims are “lesser†people than Muslims. If such discriminatory practices occurred which they did, they were out national prejudices and preferences. Persian or Turkic Muslims could also make the same argument as Christian citizens in ancient times.
The difference however was in terms of taxation where non Muslims had to pay more taxes to the state because they did not serve the state’s army and thus excused from going to war for a state that was explicitly Muslim. Muslims therefore paid fewer poll taxes because they had to serve, fight and die for the state.
A quintessential case in point is that all major Christian churches are still standing magnificently before us in the cradle of Christianity, Palestine, despite over 1000 years of Muslim rule. Christian Arabs did not melt away; they are still there among their Muslim neighbors. One can even argue that your very physical existence as a Christian is a testimony that your ancestors were not forced to convert nor were they killed off or forced away from their lands. (Think of the fate of Muslims and Jews during the catholic inquisition. 800 years of Muslim rule in Spain, not a single Muslim remained or a single mosque remained functioning)
Secondly. Almost All Muslim countries are governed by secular law, Islamic law is practiced in areas of marriage and inheritance, equally so, Christian religious law is also accepted and legally sanctioned and accepted by the state. (Remember the church document of your family property in Jerusalem) ïŠ
The issue of apostasy is rather a legal issue that arose of the historical context when Islam was an upstart and contested religion, therefore theologians and jurists found it was necessary to have this type of legal codex in order to preserve the religious beliefs of man and state. The Christian west enacted similar laws that punished by death converts, heretics and those who even challenged the church’s authority.
Are there any apostasy laws in any Muslim country in these days! None!
Lastly
No one is arguing that all Muslims are angelic creatures or without prejudices against other religious groups. All of use should speak out against religious hatred and against those who attempt to poison the well. Muslims however are not alone in this category; the same could be said about Jews, Hindus, Christians and even monkey worshipers.
http://www.alialarabi.com
Hi Ray, I’m a Malaysian Muslim woman, and unfortunately the mentality of people like “anyone” is all too common here, and is precisely the reason why poor Lina Joy has been given such a hard time. It also ensures that the notion of religious freedom will always remain a farce in Malaysia.
The Lina Joy case was/is a highly sensitive issue, but also a complex and confusing one. I have to admit that I don’t know all the ins and outs of it, as I was out of the country when the whole thing first exploded. Most of what I know has come from the local press reports here, which didn’t mention anything about imprisonment or death threats, so I may not have all the facts at hand here. But from what I do know, apostasy is NOT illegal in Malaysia – it’s certainly not considered an offence under Federal law, which applied in Lina’s case. I definitely don’t approve of the way her case has been handled, but at the same time I highly doubt that she’ll be thrown in jail simply for becoming a Christian.
That said, they certainly don’t make it easy for you to leave Islam. Yes, apparently there ARE “correction facilities” for the “poor, misguided” Muslims who want to renounce their religion. And, it IS illegal for a Malaysian Muslim, whether male or female, to marry a non-Muslim – such a marriage is not a punishable offence, but it does remain unrecognised under Malaysian law.
The recent news reports that I read weren’t actually focusing on Lina’s actual conversion – apparently she’s already been baptised and has legally changed her name from Azlina Jailani. The issue at hand was her application to remove the word “Islam” on her National Identity Card, because it’s compulsory for each Malaysian Muslim to have their religion stated there (not a requirement for non-Muslims). The civil court ruled that only the Sharia court has jurisdiction on such matters…but I’m not sure what stand the Sharia court has taken on this. Apparently, you have to get the Sharia Court’s “permission” to “officially” renounce Islam.
I think the main problem with this issue was one of ethnic and cultural identity – it’s the fact that Lina is Malay. And unfortunately the concept of Malay identity is a highly explosive issue – the notion of ‘Malayness’ has become so intertwined with being Muslim that the two are now inseparable, and unlike with Arabs it has become practically inconceivable (at least as far as most Malaysians are concerned) for a Malay to be anything other than Muslim.
In fact, one of the biggest reasons for this problem is the fact that the Malaysian Constitution, quite ridiculously, actually defines a Malay person as being Muslim. Therefore, one of the so-called ‘legal’ arguments in the Lina Joy case was that she couldn’t change her religious identity because it would be going against the Constitution!
So yes, it is slightly more complicated than Malaysia simply discriminating against non-Muslims. Which is not to say that non-Muslims don’t face discrimination here…although ironically enough, sometimes I do feel that it’s Malaysian Muslims (specifically Malays) who have to deal with more state-imposed discrimination simply because we are placed, against our will, under Sharia law which the non-Muslim Malaysians don’t have constantly lurking over their shoulder. That, I think, is the real tragedy of Lina Joy’s story.
I certainly agree with you though that the root cause is increasing Muslim extremism, which is definitely on the rise even here in supposedly ‘tolerant’ Malaysia. Malays are trying to become more and more Arab, driven by the pathetic notion that it somehow makes them better Muslims.
Thank you for highlighting this issue, which has cast shame on both Malaysia and Muslims. And, you’re right – Muslims should speak out and stand against this hypocrisy. I thank you for reminding me of the need to be a responsible Muslim and to condemn injustices in the name of Islam.
By the way – I’ve enjoyed your posts and I hope the comedy tour is going well in East Jerusalem! I have a good Christian Arab friend whom I will never be able to visit there!
Sheema,
Thank you for your enlightening comment
But you did mention you have non-Muslim Malays.. are they all considered to be against the Constitution?
Of course this is an insult and an example of Islamic hypocrisy. Someone needs to get Islam a good PR firm.
The same is true in Egypt.
Nobody can argue Islam tolerates other religious groups while governments can make it illegal to convert from islam to another religion, while encouraging conversion to Islam. And don’t think most Malaysians/Egyptians/whichever country it is are against such measures. They support it, as “anyone” goes to show. Absolutely idiotic.
Hi Rasha, sorry for the confusion – I should’ve explained. “Malay” is actually an ethnic group and shouldn’t be confused with Malaysian citizenship. So for example, a Malaysian could be a non-Muslim of Chinese descent, Indian descent or from one of the indigenous groups in Borneo.
On the other hand, a person of Malay ethnicity might not necessarily be a Malaysian citizen, but could instead be Singaporean, Bruneian, or even hold UK or US citizenship. It’s worthwhile mentioning that a lot of Filipinos also appear to consider themselves to be ethnically of Malay descent.
The problem with Malaysia (unlike Indonesia, which operates under secular law), is that our Constitution has defined Malay people as legally being Muslims – so we don’t even have a choice in this matter!
Hey Ali
I love you as a brother. But you failed in every respect to “demolish” my arguments:
1 — Muslims are silent when it comes to denouncing immoral practices such as persecuting Muslims who wish to convert ti Christianity, and in fact any other religion including Judaism.
2 — The fact that Walid Shobat converted to Christianity and condemns Islamic practices (which you mischaracterize as attacking Islam) has nothing to do with the Lina Joy persecution story and the death threats against her.
3 — Muslims cannot say they are benevolent to “people of the book” when in fact they are not, as the case of Lina Joy so aptly demonstrates.
I demolished your failed demolition effort in far less words
You the Man Ali
Your friend, in disagreement
Ray Hanania
http://www.hanania.com
guys, sorry, but I asked a question, anyone can answer?
Ray said: “…Walid Shobat converted to Christianity and condemns Islamic practices (which you mischaracterize as attacking Islam)…”
Rasha, you see? Ray is trying to speak everybody’s language, yet he has more credibility than many of us (outsiders) — he is what I call a translator.
(Sorry, guys, you can pass over this one — Rasha might see a connection if she checks the last interactions in the Human Rights in Saudi Arabia forum)
Joseph, here’s what YOU said earlier:
“Anyone, you’re not thinking for yourself, therefor you ARE, like Proud NonMuslim Malaysian said, a Zombie (and I mean no offense), or a sheep!”
Does that imply that you should be a proud man in fron of a sheep ?! Proud in front of Nature? As in, not part of nature? Who do you think you are, man?
THen YOU continue:
“People are better than animals because they can think for themselves, to decide what’s right for them, not for other’s to choose what’s right for everyone!”
What the heck are you talking about? You think a sheep cannot choose what’s best for it? An animal ‘knows’, I mean, senses exactly what is best for it, that’s why it survives.
You know when you will be a real Muslim (or Christian, or Jew, or simply Human)? When you will not need to affirm it to yourself. When you will just be one and act like one without having to justify it and without feeling that you should be PROUD. In that sense only, we can learn how to be, from Nature…
And one more thing, Joseph: does your notion of sheep includes women by any chance?!
Again no offense, but that’s what I think!!
Hey Ray, my brother
I thought my wrecking ball had left your argument a pile of rubble. Nonetheless I like , ney…. I admire.. your resolute and emergence out of the rubble like a majestic phoenix or maybe, one might argue like a tweety bird! ïŠ
I don’t know who is walid Shobat, I was referring to Mohammad Asad. But no one should argue against anyone, Muslim or not for criticizing “Muslim practices†and by the way what are “Muslim practices†anyway?
Not eating pork you mean? Or maybe driving a car? A camel? I am not sure what the definition of Muslim practices is. If a Muslim kills someone, does that define this act as a Muslim practice, if so how do we define when the killer is Hindi, Jewish or Christian?
In fact the Arab world is filled with Muslims who stood up to other Muslims for practices they think are not healthy or conducive to good modern values of society!
Moreover, if you take a peak at the prisons in the entire Arab world, you see them filled with Islamists, or intellectuals and Muslim seculars who stood up and said something against the government or the religious establishment a and not Christians ( for being Christians)
More, I still did not see anything in your comeback argument that shows any evidence or factual information other than allegations!
You cannot take one singular example of Lina Joy and say .. see. I told you so ,look at Islam or Muslims ( the entire Billion + Muslims around the globe) that’s an outright fallacy .
Sincerely
Ali
Ali
Pouyan,
I cannot answer you because I am not Muslim but when you said: “I am a muslim by name, but I, myself, didn’t decide about my religion!” — now, that is a VERY constructive, very open line of thinking. And as you youself prove it, you can ask that question within Islam.
I see.. .
I agree with you
When I was a student I remember my religious teacher telling us that apostasy was forbidden and the guilty party (as she had put it) would need to go to a correction facility,upon several trials if he/she still insists on converting from Islam, then death is the next step.
I agree with Josef
Religion is a personal decision. It is a relationship between me/you and God or what ever a person believes in.
BUT as we all know through out history, Religions have been fighting for political control and power for many centuries.
I got your point lamer..
Sheema, how u doing? I was going to state something similar but not in the articulate way you did.
The problem I have with how this was reported in the mass media was that it made Malaysia look super horrible as if it was a Taliban state or something. Malaysia certainly isn’t perfect but compared to other Muslim nations it is by FAR better when it comes to issues such as freedom of religion. I know this because I live in Malaysia.
As for Lina, she should be free to choose whatever path she wants to follow. Shame on those calling for her death. Ops I forgot, they’re only following “Islam”, aka their lovely version of it.
The problem isn’t Malasia, it is the enforcement of religious laws on people …r eligion belongs to the people of the religion, not to a nation of people. You impose religion on those who come to your mosque or church, not on the people who have a right to live in a land but don’t happen to be the same religion of the majority.
It’s the Sharia Law that is corrupt and wrong, and misinterpreted by the radical imams and religious fanatics in Malaysia who have turned Islam into an oppressive cult following instead of a religion.
As you can see from my friend Ali’s postings, he’s upset when anyone questions the malpractices of Islamic extremists … and never once denounces Malaysia or the Imams for threatening Lina Joy with jail or death … his argument is attacking me because I dare to question the misintepretation of Islam by today’s Islamic dictators and the distortion of Islam by Muslim fanatics.
Ray Hanania
More News Abut Islamic Extremism — that most Muslims pretend don’t exist, or respond to by criticizing those who bring it up.
In the Gaza Strip, Islamic extremist groups have issued warnings threatening to kill — to kill — Palestinian women who are working journalists if they refuse to wear a Hijab, the supposedly voluntary head covering.
Now, Hamas claims they have nothing to do with these groups, but they REFUSE to denounce these threats. They only say they have nothing to do with them. But the truth is since the election of Hamas, they have created an atmosphere in which Islamic extremists can make these kinds of threats not just against women but against secular Muslims and Christians who do things that Muslims believe, in their opinion, are haram, such as drinking in public which is NOT a sin in the Christian religion or for secular Muslims. They have fire-bombed night clubs that serve alcohol, beat club owners, threatened violence against Internet Cafe owners, and more.
Where are the Muslim voices standing up to this kind of fanaticism? The only voices I hear are like those of my friend Ali Alarabi (who is a genuine friend even though we often have heated but respectful debates) who avoid the issues and condemn me for bringing them up.
I would rather be condemned for criticizing extremist Islamic practices — which are a growing trend in the Arab World — than turn my back and eyes away from courageous Palestinian women who have said they will stand up to the Religious Police themselves.
It’s tragic.
Where are the wide spread Muslim voices of condemnation for these outrageous, immoral threats against Muslim Women who do not live by their distorted definitions of Islamic life?
I don’t see them. I don’t hear them.
Ray Hanania
Dear Ray
I thought I was trying to respond to your argument and never have I responded in argumentum ad hominom or in personal manner to you or attacked you personally.
That aside, I know that you are sincerer in your arguments against extremism of all kinds Muslims, Jews and Christians. I remember many times you stood up to what’s right and condemned what’s wrong and I can confirm that you have stood for Muslim rights and Islam more than some Muslims I know.
In fact we have discussed this issue heatedly and animatedly on our show before!
My problem however is not denouncing extremism, which I think is one of the highlights of my career, however my problem is with the selectiveness of western media in labeling just about every behavior by some Muslims in some Muslim country that is not compatible with western life style or moral standards as “ extremism †fundamentaliss” or” terroristâ€
I stated that Lina joy should not be persecuted for converting, I did not need to†denounce Malaysia†for acting the way it was reported on here. I don’t know the details of this case anyway.
We know, from the posts on here, and your posting, that Lina Joy converted to Christianity, NOT out of religious conventions or because of the validity, the spirituality, and the rightness of the Christian faith, but rather, because she loves one man and wanted to show her love . Had Ms. Joy, for example converted and went on to become another Mother Teresa, or took up residence in convent, or joined a religious order to spread good and help the poor, in that case, I would bow to her in deep respect and understanding of her choices.
Her story of conversion is rather quasi-romantic and it might be good enough for made-for-TV HBO movie.. But it was not a sincere leap of faith that requires my utmost support. Therefore Ms. Joy will not have my support because I think her conversion is more like an act of passion as oppose to an act of faith or even sincere.
Moreover, why is it the west and the western media always jump to “denounce†say .. “Honor killing†which a despicable act anyway, and yet hardly apply the same extreme rhetoric in the astronomical numbers of rape, child molestation, teenage pregnancy among so many ills and problems that bedevil the western societies. How come those issues are not framed as “Christian extremists or Christian decadence and almost no one is asking how come: Christens are not denouncing the extremism of Robertson and his ilk.
Women in India or China have worst situations than Arab or Muslim women, yet you hardly hear anything about it. This selectivity and putting Muslims and their faith under a microscope is a sure sign of prejudice if not latent animosity.
The fact is tou don.t really care about this lady’s horrendous situation .Its another persons problem.Its the reason why corrupt acts prosper,we all need to have more heart.Whats that phrase;Evil triumphs because good men stand by and do nothing.Its something like that.I aim this comment to all in the world,not at muslims.
All these happen in the Muslim world also. In Western countries the rapists will be sentenced to jail if they are found guilty of the crime, in Muslims countries the victims are sentenced to be stoned to death if there aren’t x number of witnesses to the crime. Most victims don’t even come forward because of this or because they will be killed by their own family for that “honour” issue.
And unlike honour KILLING, these ills don’t result in the death of anyone. I am lost for words. How did you manage to compare cold blooded murder with teenage pregnancy?
You got to be shitting me…
Yes Ray, Islamic extremism does exist, and often times it makes headlines.
A new group that hatched in Gaza and threatened women who work in the public place. Those women who work in the media bravely demonstrated against that form of extremism..
My opinion is that it is wrong to frame the issue as Islamic extremism without taking into the considerations the conditions from which this monster was born.
People were not born terrorists or extremists.
But thanks to decades of racist and ugly Israeli occupation that made Gaza like a big prison besieged by the Israeli occupation soldiers (who left the center of the town to be station outside of it), and locked in a sever economic sanctions by most of the world, lousy infrastructure and over 60% unemployment rate, and on top it you have a stupid Hamas-Fatah fighting over an imaginary power and feckless Authority.
Giving these conditions, are you expecting the Palestinian society there ( or any society) to breath fresh air, enjoying a nice walk by the blue sea or enjoying the Palestinian sun by the Mediterranean; while eating ice cream!
The Palestinian society, though severely traumatized, ought to do better than this; these groups do more harm than good. But it is very hard to convince the victims that they need to abandon violence and extremism while the same time they are at the receiving end of blows by Israel who is bloodying their heads day and night and in every other aspect of their lives.
jin
Perhaps it is ok in your neck of the woods for girls of 12 or 13 years of age to have children. I think that’s rape and child abuse anyway. a child having another child . Sheesh!
But you can celebrate that all you want. I seek no interference in your way of life or value system.
More importantly however is you keep your standards and way of life as well your anti-Arab racism to yourself and please do not to impose it upon others. Arab societies do not need your out of wedlock pregnancies, high crime rate or even your moral standards. I think we are fine with what we have.
Your argument about the victims being killed ( I am not sure if that’s an argument at all) is not more than a racist statement born out hatred not sound logic. Speaking of victims, perhaps one can bring about statistics of how many innocent victims were executed in American justice system, or were found innocent after spending decades behind bars for crimes they did not commit!
Ali: “People were not born terrorists or extremists.”
This is the best thing I’ve heard so far on this blog and I wish I could isolate it somehow from any context that might stain it. It deserves a pedestal as high as heaven or as close to our bruised hearts as possible.
This is pretty sad, and contrary to Islam.
http://www.eteraz.org/story/2007/3/18/9426/53820
Bullet point attack on apostasy, complete with Qur’anic evidence to back it up.
Ali:“People were not born terrorists or extremists.â€
I wonder if people who say this truth can also believe it, live by it and show it in the way they approach others. Because if they can’t, the whole statement looses impact and the person who said it looses all credibility.
My ancestors were jews, I was brought us as a christian, But I am a Muslim That is me.
It comes down to religious freedom – if a person is born of one religion, but chooses to become another, it is their choice. What good is it if in my heart, i am for one religion, but because i am stuck with another religion, i “act” as if i am of the religion?
People should have a choice – are we to be prisoners having not even committed a crime?
Malaysia is taking a step backwards into the 11th century (like most Islamic nations). The only reason Malaysia is where it is today is due to British rule (remember Malaya?). Modern thinking, processes, technology were introduced to the nation. After Malaya became Malaysia, the downfall commenced. Back in the 60’s it was a tolerant place. Now it’s being led by a government bent on control of its people. Muslims, like most religious people, follow their “leaders” without questioning… why would someone question a person who “shares God’s wardrobe”? The only way Malaysia will move forward is to remove its theocratic leaders. The bad news is that the people of Malaysia are largely uneducated and as backwards as the leaders it elects. In the meantime, companies will continue to move out of the country, and into places like China where communism is more compatible with progress than Islam!
Ray and anyone else who’s interested in following up on this issue -
Zainah Anwar of Sisters in Islam has just written an op-ed on religious freedom in Malaysia, which just came out in today’s New Straits Times. It doesn’t mention Lina Joy specifically, but I’m pretty sure her case was the catalyst for the article, which also alludes to several other recent cases of apostasy.
Read it. It’s good:-
Sorry, the link didn’t come through! Let me try again:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Friday/Columns/20070615081347/Article/index_html
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oi oi oi!! ya satan hidupkan lah undergroung malaysia, dan banyakkan lah bohsia seumpama baby rina dan kavita kour, dadahkan lah malaysia.
SATAN I LOVE ! sembahyang lah kamu sebelum kau di sembayangkan!!sembah setan di underground!!
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And the LIGHT shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html
Thank you, Ray, for addressing such a difficult and touchy issue with honesty and compassion.
Ali: is your link correct? I couldn’t get to http://www.alialarabi.com/ Incidentally, the vast majority of Americans think Pat Robertson is a joke and an embarrassment.
sorry to hear that coz im not an islam believer,but i think she decide for herself,islam is the most rediculous religion. she is human,not an animal that follow evrything..