Ali: is your link correct? I couldn’t get to http://www.alialarabi.com/ Incidentally, the vast majority of Americans think Pat Robertson is a joke and an embarrassment.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

Zainah Anwar of Sisters in Islam has just written an op-ed on religious freedom in Malaysia, which just came out in today’s New Straits Times. It doesn’t mention Lina Joy specifically, but I’m pretty sure her case was the catalyst for the article, which also alludes to several other recent cases of apostasy.

Read it. It’s good:-

People should have a choice – are we to be prisoners having not even committed a crime?

I wonder if people who say this truth can also believe it, live by it and show it in the way they approach others. Because if they can’t, the whole statement looses impact and the person who said it looses all credibility.

http://www.eteraz.org/story/2007/3/18/9426/53820

Bullet point attack on apostasy, complete with Qur’anic evidence to back it up.

This is the best thing I’ve heard so far on this blog and I wish I could isolate it somehow from any context that might stain it. It deserves a pedestal as high as heaven or as close to our bruised hearts as possible.

Perhaps it is ok in your neck of the woods for girls of 12 or 13 years of age to have children. I think that’s rape and child abuse anyway. a child having another child . Sheesh!

But you can celebrate that all you want. I seek no interference in your way of life or value system.

More importantly however is you keep your standards and way of life as well your anti-Arab racism to yourself and please do not to impose it upon others. Arab societies do not need your out of wedlock pregnancies, high crime rate or even your moral standards. I think we are fine with what we have.

Your argument about the victims being killed ( I am not sure if that’s an argument at all) is not more than a racist statement born out hatred not sound logic. Speaking of victims, perhaps one can bring about statistics of how many innocent victims were executed in American justice system, or were found innocent after spending decades behind bars for crimes they did not commit!

A new group that hatched in Gaza and threatened women who work in the public place. Those women who work in the media bravely demonstrated against that form of extremism..

My opinion is that it is wrong to frame the issue as Islamic extremism without taking into the considerations the conditions from which this monster was born.

People were not born terrorists or extremists.

But thanks to decades of racist and ugly Israeli occupation that made Gaza like a big prison besieged by the Israeli occupation soldiers (who left the center of the town to be station outside of it), and locked in a sever economic sanctions by most of the world, lousy infrastructure and over 60% unemployment rate, and on top it you have a stupid Hamas-Fatah fighting over an imaginary power and feckless Authority.

Giving these conditions, are you expecting the Palestinian society there ( or any society) to breath fresh air, enjoying a nice walk by the blue sea or enjoying the Palestinian sun by the Mediterranean; while eating ice cream!

The Palestinian society, though severely traumatized, ought to do better than this; these groups do more harm than good. But it is very hard to convince the victims that they need to abandon violence and extremism while the same time they are at the receiving end of blows by Israel who is bloodying their heads day and night and in every other aspect of their lives.

Moreover, why is it the west and the western media always jump to “denounce” say .. “Honor killing” which a despicable act anyway, and yet hardly apply the same extreme rhetoric in the astronomical numbers of rape, child molestation, teenage pregnancy among so many ills and problems…

All these happen in the Muslim world also. In Western countries the rapists will be sentenced to jail if they are found guilty of the crime, in Muslims countries the victims are sentenced to be stoned to death if there aren’t x number of witnesses to the crime. Most victims don’t even come forward because of this or because they will be killed by their own family for that “honour” issue.

And unlike honour KILLING, these ills don’t result in the death of anyone. I am lost for words. How did you manage to compare cold blooded murder with teenage pregnancy?

Women in India or China have worst situations than Arab or Muslim women, yet you hardly hear anything about it.

You got to be shitting me…

I thought I was trying to respond to your argument and never have I responded in argumentum ad hominom or in personal manner to you or attacked you personally.

That aside, I know that you are sincerer in your arguments against extremism of all kinds Muslims, Jews and Christians. I remember many times you stood up to what’s right and condemned what’s wrong and I can confirm that you have stood for Muslim rights and Islam more than some Muslims I know.

In fact we have discussed this issue heatedly and animatedly on our show before!

My problem however is not denouncing extremism, which I think is one of the highlights of my career, however my problem is with the selectiveness of western media in labeling just about every behavior by some Muslims in some Muslim country that is not compatible with western life style or moral standards as “ extremism ” fundamentaliss” or” terrorist”

I stated that Lina joy should not be persecuted for converting, I did not need to” denounce Malaysia” for acting the way it was reported on here. I don’t know the details of this case anyway.

We know, from the posts on here, and your posting, that Lina Joy converted to Christianity, NOT out of religious conventions or because of the validity, the spirituality, and the rightness of the Christian faith, but rather, because she loves one man and wanted to show her love . Had Ms. Joy, for example converted and went on to become another Mother Teresa, or took up residence in convent, or joined a religious order to spread good and help the poor, in that case, I would bow to her in deep respect and understanding of her choices.

Her story of conversion is rather quasi-romantic and it might be good enough for made-for-TV HBO movie.. But it was not a sincere leap of faith that requires my utmost support. Therefore Ms. Joy will not have my support because I think her conversion is more like an act of passion as oppose to an act of faith or even sincere.

Moreover, why is it the west and the western media always jump to “denounce” say .. “Honor killing” which a despicable act anyway, and yet hardly apply the same extreme rhetoric in the astronomical numbers of rape, child molestation, teenage pregnancy among so many ills and problems that bedevil the western societies. How come those issues are not framed as “Christian extremists or Christian decadence and almost no one is asking how come: Christens are not denouncing the extremism of Robertson and his ilk.

Women in India or China have worst situations than Arab or Muslim women, yet you hardly hear anything about it. This selectivity and putting Muslims and their faith under a microscope is a sure sign of prejudice if not latent animosity.

In the Gaza Strip, Islamic extremist groups have issued warnings threatening to kill — to kill — Palestinian women who are working journalists if they refuse to wear a Hijab, the supposedly voluntary head covering.

Now, Hamas claims they have nothing to do with these groups, but they REFUSE to denounce these threats. They only say they have nothing to do with them. But the truth is since the election of Hamas, they have created an atmosphere in which Islamic extremists can make these kinds of threats not just against women but against secular Muslims and Christians who do things that Muslims believe, in their opinion, are haram, such as drinking in public which is NOT a sin in the Christian religion or for secular Muslims. They have fire-bombed night clubs that serve alcohol, beat club owners, threatened violence against Internet Cafe owners, and more.

Where are the Muslim voices standing up to this kind of fanaticism? The only voices I hear are like those of my friend Ali Alarabi (who is a genuine friend even though we often have heated but respectful debates) who avoid the issues and condemn me for bringing them up.

I would rather be condemned for criticizing extremist Islamic practices — which are a growing trend in the Arab World — than turn my back and eyes away from courageous Palestinian women who have said they will stand up to the Religious Police themselves.

It’s tragic.

Where are the wide spread Muslim voices of condemnation for these outrageous, immoral threats against Muslim Women who do not live by their distorted definitions of Islamic life?

I don’t see them. I don’t hear them.

Ray Hanania

It’s the Sharia Law that is corrupt and wrong, and misinterpreted by the radical imams and religious fanatics in Malaysia who have turned Islam into an oppressive cult following instead of a religion.

As you can see from my friend Ali’s postings, he’s upset when anyone questions the malpractices of Islamic extremists … and never once denounces Malaysia or the Imams for threatening Lina Joy with jail or death … his argument is attacking me because I dare to question the misintepretation of Islam by today’s Islamic dictators and the distortion of Islam by Muslim fanatics.

Ray Hanania

The problem I have with how this was reported in the mass media was that it made Malaysia look super horrible as if it was a Taliban state or something. Malaysia certainly isn’t perfect but compared to other Muslim nations it is by FAR better when it comes to issues such as freedom of religion. I know this because I live in Malaysia.

As for Lina, she should be free to choose whatever path she wants to follow. Shame on those calling for her death. Ops I forgot, they’re only following “Islam”, aka their lovely version of it.

the root cause is increasing Muslim extremism

I agree with you

When I was a student I remember my religious teacher telling us that apostasy was forbidden and the guilty party (as she had put it) would need to go to a correction facility,upon several trials if he/she still insists on converting from Islam, then death is the next step.

I agree with Josef

Religion is a decision, you have to pick your own religion, not your parents, a person might be a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew… etc by name, but inside they might be an Atheist who doesn’t even believe in God! You can’t get into people’s minds!

Religion is a personal decision. It is a relationship between me/you and God or what ever a person believes in.
BUT as we all know through out history, Religions have been fighting for political control and power for many centuries.

I got your point lamer..

I cannot answer you because I am not Muslim but when you said: “I am a muslim by name, but I, myself, didn’t decide about my religion!” — now, that is a VERY constructive, very open line of thinking. And as you youself prove it, you can ask that question within Islam.

I thought my wrecking ball had left your argument a pile of rubble. Nonetheless I like , ney…. I admire.. your resolute and emergence out of the rubble like a majestic phoenix or maybe, one might argue like a tweety bird! 

I don’t know who is walid Shobat, I was referring to Mohammad Asad. But no one should argue against anyone, Muslim or not for criticizing “Muslim practices” and by the way what are “Muslim practices” anyway?

Not eating pork you mean? Or maybe driving a car? A camel? I am not sure what the definition of Muslim practices is. If a Muslim kills someone, does that define this act as a Muslim practice, if so how do we define when the killer is Hindi, Jewish or Christian?

In fact the Arab world is filled with Muslims who stood up to other Muslims for practices they think are not healthy or conducive to good modern values of society!

Moreover, if you take a peak at the prisons in the entire Arab world, you see them filled with Islamists, or intellectuals and Muslim seculars who stood up and said something against the government or the religious establishment a and not Christians ( for being Christians)

More, I still did not see anything in your comeback argument that shows any evidence or factual information other than allegations!

You cannot take one singular example of Lina Joy and say .. see. I told you so ,look at Islam or Muslims ( the entire Billion + Muslims around the globe) that’s an outright fallacy .

Sincerely

Ali

Ali

“Anyone, you’re not thinking for yourself, therefor you ARE, like Proud NonMuslim Malaysian said, a Zombie (and I mean no offense), or a sheep!”

Does that imply that you should be a proud man in fron of a sheep ?! Proud in front of Nature? As in, not part of nature? Who do you think you are, man?

THen YOU continue:
“People are better than animals because they can think for themselves, to decide what’s right for them, not for other’s to choose what’s right for everyone!”
What the heck are you talking about? You think a sheep cannot choose what’s best for it? An animal ‘knows’, I mean, senses exactly what is best for it, that’s why it survives.
You know when you will be a real Muslim (or Christian, or Jew, or simply Human)? When you will not need to affirm it to yourself. When you will just be one and act like one without having to justify it and without feeling that you should be PROUD. In that sense only, we can learn how to be, from Nature…
And one more thing, Joseph: does your notion of sheep includes women by any chance?!

Again no offense, but that’s what I think!!