Get real. Just who do you think are going to speak out? Having loved in Suadi for close to 10 years, I have heard and experenced to some degree the tatics of the muttawa.

Stories abound of women from third world countiy women being abducted, raped, and abused, and sometimes killed, by these rightious defineder of Islam. And what recourse do these women have? NONE!!! After all, what Saudi in thier right mind would take the word of Ethiopian whore (and most Saudis and muttawa know that all women coming from 3rd world countries, including the Phillipines, are all whores).

These women pay a Saudi to sponcer them into the Kingdom in the hopes of eraning money for themselves and their families back home. They then work for months to pay for the Saudis services. Often times the woman will pay 3 to 4,000 USD for a 2 year work visa (Iqama) in the hope of obtaining a job that pays less than 300 USD per month. They pay for their own way to and from Saudi. They want to leave, pay again for an exit visa. Why not just leave? How? The sponcer keeps their passports.

So you take poor womem who are trying to provide for themselves and their families, place them in a country where they are considered less than dirt, and subject them to the brutality of the muttawa. What can they do? Nothing!!!

most Saudis and muttawa know that all women coming from 3rd world countries, including the Phillipines, are all whores

I found that sentence grotesque.. I know that many think they are the real Islam and look inferiorly upon others, I am even sure that some sick minds think that way.. but not most Saudi’s!

ALL WOMEN are considered inferior whether they are Saudi or NOT! and that is a fact.
I do agree with you in that many people who work here from the third world countries as you have mentioned are treated VERY badly. I call it slavery and believe me whether the Saudi’s like it or not.. IT WILL CHANGE.. maybe slowly BUT SURELY.

Sandmansa said “(and most Saudis and muttawa know that all women coming from 3rd world countries, including the Phillipines, are all whores).

I have to back up Rasha on this one. None of the Saudi men I personally met talked about 3rd world women in those terms. Their attitude is superior and some (possibly many) withhold their salaries for several months or more etc. But most men that I met (except the muttawas, of course) are actually kind. They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter. Education is key!!! In this case, ignorance is their bliss and our … I don’t know…in my case, they get on my nerves, that’s all.

“These women pay a Saudi to sponcer them into the Kingdom in the hopes of eraning money for themselves and their families back home. They then work for months to pay for the Saudis services. Often times the woman will pay 3 to 4,000 USD for a 2 year work visa (Iqama) in the hope of obtaining a job that pays less than 300 USD per month. They pay for their own way to and from Saudi. They want to leave, pay again for an exit visa. Why not just leave? How? The sponcer keeps their passports. ”

I believe this is true. I know it from the maids and workers themselves, although it depends where and for whom they are working. The irony is that many maids are`treated badly (agressively) by the women who hire them and by the children in those families, not by the men. This ought to be fixed from ‘up’ there with proper laws, law enforcement and education.

They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter.

Rasha

oops.. something went wrong..here it is again

They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter.

(Lamer, don’t forget that Saudi men are not used to socializing with women, especially western women.. )
A saudi man can be so arrogant when talking to a woman sometimes. (he assumes that he knows it all and she knows nothing!)

But of course I know nothing, Rasha. You know better. You have to know better because you are a Saudi (woman). I just have fine ears and a big mouth (I earned it on the internet and it only happens under cover, in English and in writing only.)

the internet gives you more freedom in expressing .. so we all have bigger mouths here..
we both live in the same place, and we are both women.. so I am sure we agree on alot.. I was wondering.. how about western MEN living here? Does your husband (I remember you mentioning him more than once) share the same thoughts as you?
I have a feeling that men get influenced easily by their surroundings more than women do! they fit in easily.. (just an observation).

One
The idea that the presence of religious police to protect Islam and behaviour is stupid. the concept is wrong and the way they are doing it is wrong. They should be disbanded. The military police should be well trained and educated in the prevention of CRIME.
Two
As for “Behvaiour” that is the matter of individul ppl and the way they bring up their children. I think that proper behaviour comes from within not from a man with a beard. Islam judges an individual on his actions not of another. So protection from what?!? oursleves? We should have the strength to avoid “temptation” The teaching of Islam is of strengthening the soul and will power. What about ramadan and fasting?!? what should that teach?! proper education!!!

Things have changed, yes, thanks to alqeada and the bombings, it made alot of ppl wake up and smell the coffee “Not all ppl with beards are righteous” Now even if we see them in the streets and malls, they are weaker and the fear is lessening.

lamer, Men are men regardless. A saudi man will look at a woman by the way his mum raised him. I blame most mothers for the dis-respect of the Men towards women.
My brother for one, has been raised between independant sisters and has a healthy respect for women. He is proud when he sees his sister equal to any man, and I am. And I can say so is my Dad though it shocked him to see his youngest girl in that light.
As I said before, change will come from us and educating those around us!

Wafa,

I must say, I’ve found this thought (in your comment) very insightful:
“I think that proper behaviour comes from within not from a man with a beard. Islam judges an individual on his actions not of another. So protection from what?!? oursleves?”

Then, you voiced an intriguing thought: “Men are men regardless. A saudi man will look at a woman by the way his mum raised him. I blame most mothers for the dis-respect of the Men towards women.”
Yes, but where are the fathers in this picture? I agree that, perhaps by nature, perhaps by nurture, perhaps both, mothers get closer to their childern and tend to spend more time with them (especially if they are not working outside the house). But fathers teach by example. No matter the situation, a child observes both parents and inherits the ‘atmosphere’ of that relationship. No matter what the mother does and teaches her child, s/he will still look at the dad and then, when in turn s/he grows up and educates children, s/he will carry on a baguage from home.
Another thought: no matter how much you work at home, there is the school expertience and the experiences earned in mingling with people outside home. And no matter how much the school does (supposing that you send your kids to an excellent school), what’s done at home has to match the same standards somehow. You have to work on all fronts. Both parents have to participate in their children’s lives.
What I see happening in Saudi? I see very united families and communities — that’s wonderful! But I see no purposeful strive to educate those kids at home (I’m generalizing, of course). I also see a lot of wealthy parents who travel a lot and leave the kids with maids and tutors, even at a young age! To the point that they send the nanny to school to discuss matters with the teacher. Now that’s simply wrong and I don’t need to bring arguments, I hope. It’s a well known thing in the WEst and I am sure it makes sense anywhere: Parenting is a job. Parental love is one thing and ‘parenting’ is another. You guys have to find a way to educate the parents first. Notice here I do not speak about men and women.

To respond to Rasha’s question, I will just tell you one true story(one of those eye-opening Bangs! I experienced recently). We were invited to a dinner at other teachers (a couple from New Zealand whom we didn’t know well). Present at the dinner was another Canadian couple. The atmosphere was intimate and cosy, fine food, a hint of home-made red wine (forgive me for saying this — none of us got drunk ok?). Here’s what was happening: The youngest son was helping the parents serve the food (the maid was in the kitchen to help with clearing them dishes – we never saw the maid). Without any warning, just naturally, the men (both the host and the guests) were helping with carrying dishes and changing food. Women did that too. We kind of took turns without really thinking about it. Here’s one more: The host (the man) had cooked all the food. The wife said she did it on another ocasion but that her husband is actually better at this. Both men (not my husband though — he is awful at cooking and I am too) at some point started talking about food and cooking — they were both pationate about such things. The women were talking about books and then we all talked about…well, just about life, and laughed a lot. Both couples that I met there had each 3 kids at home. The woman from New Zealand has three boys whom I know personally, they’re funny, witty and have no problem doing dishes and cleaning their rooms. They have no girlfriends yet plenty of very good friends who happen to be girls or boys.
I am not exagerrating a bit. Actually, we came back home struck. My huisband said “Boy, I wished I knew how to cook!” And I said: “Well, I wished that too because I am not that good with cooking, although I try to do my best!” But he also coined a weird remark in there . He said: ” Ah, this woman TRAINED her husband and those boys…” There was a hint of criticism and male pride in that statement because my husband was raised in a traditional family where the mother came from work and cooked and tend for the kids while the father came from work and rested in front of the TV. (G_d bless the maids! We were raised in a no-maid environment but maids, if one can afford them, can offer so much help!). My husband’s parents were fine people you see, but the father NEVER helped the wife in any house matters. He had been raised that way. On the other hand, my parents were always working side by side. Ok, my father doesn’t cook unless he is home alone, simply because it is not one of his strenghths but for anything else in the house, he participates fully and without any questioning. He was raised that way — there were 10 kids in his family and each had his specific role and tasks. In school, there were cooking and home-mechanics classes for fun (after school) open for both boys and girls. Just like art classes. Of course many boys thought cooking or even painting was lame, as lame perhaps as a pink shirt. These are learned things — don’t tell me we were born that way because that would kinda’ racist — as if girls and boys were two different races. THey’re different though in many respects and it’s been proven that they learn differently as well. Although there are more refined theories (loike the theory of multiple intelligencies — see Harvard’s Howard Gardner) that looks at the matter beyond gender differences.

Oh, stop me! I’m taking up too much space again!!!!

OH! One more thought! You guys have to do something with the textbooks! Seed what we’re doing here? How fine our ears have become in the process? You should go through this process (I mean READ from this perspective) the textbooks at school and clean them of any racist, potentially unhealthy remarks. Train the teachers to be sensitive to language as well. I don’t know this would\ be done, but I see it as IMPERATIVE!

about maids i agree you with you some ppl just totally ignore their children. but again i dont want to generalise. some of the women doing that would be the stay home mum and ironically the career driven working woman is more invovled with her kids. I see it in my family and the ppl around me! again it goes back to values. Once when my nephews father was out of town, my brother went to speak to the teachers and be there. something we have here is strong family ties.
The role of the father!? is there but who was his mum! LOL. I also believe that a woman can teach her man anything, i have a metaphor I wont use or all the men in the sight will get insulted! Men are like …… its how you train him! goes for all men!

Yes, wafa, actually the word TRAINING is not that bad. Men have to accept to be trained first and then, we can just train each other, like we do here. People in general have to re-learn how to think constructively, how to ask the right questions. Kids do it naturally, innocently, I should say but then…we train them so well that they forget how to ask those questions, they learn to respect Authority (I should perhaps not capitalise here) instead of respecting themselves and others around them.

no honey,
the power of a woman is to train her man without him knowing! a man will never accept to be consciously trained. LOL its in the genes I think the Y-chromsome!!

Oh, and upon further thought, we have to be careful how we approach the idea of the Mother. The Mother can be like a Father, overpowering and oppressive (I am talking in symbolic terms here!!!). On the other hand, the father can be like a mother in many respects (and I am purposefully not using capital letters here). I am talkikng about parents. I know we don’t choose our mothers, they choose us in a sense. But in theory and in life we should ask ouselves WHO or WHAT does the Mother represent and what does she do to us? We want authority in the sense of reasonable, healthy rules but we do not want AUTHORITY in human form, right? We need to be nurtured and loved by this mother or father of ours, not threatened and abused. Now I am trying to assume the voice of a child. Maybe that’s something that resonates in the holy books? I don’t know, you know better. I heard once an amazing Muslim student (a girl who does amazing art) taking a verse from the holy book (something formulated as a question, as if the father-mother (that kind of generic parent) was asking the child (humanity) something like: “It is We that ….or you (people) that…? — where ‘We’ represented the authority of G_d. I loved the fact that it was formulated as a question and that instead of that overpowering ‘I’, it was formulated openly as ‘We’) I am sorry I forgot the whole thing and I do not have any further knowledge on that. In Christianity the idea of the FATHER, the idea of AUTHORITY is interesting as well. The father becomes nurturing, becomes LIKE a mother in that sense. And also, the father becomes the son. It’s a different concept of authority.

I will end on a highly apologetic note! I am NOT preaching nor trying to prove any point really. I am just thinking out aloud. Pls. forgive me and correct me if I am saying stupid things or things that shouldn’t be said on this forum.

Dear lamer,
You pointed out in your last comments one of my biggest fears of raising a child here in this society. I can do my best in influencing my children, to guide them and raise them in an atmosphere free from racism within the walls of my HOME. As you mentioned, these children are exposed to schools, friends even relatives with different upbringings, different ideas, racism .. etc. the child might copy society to try to fit in.. that scares the hell out of me. I can’t isolate my child from society.. what is there to do to except do the best that I could.. but the outcome is unknown..

I had a conversation that pissed me off with one of my brothers the other day, we have both been raised by the same mother and father BUT the boys have been raised to have little more privilages than we girls have..
and because of that.. boys have become spoiled and lazy while women are proving to be hard working and succesfull. (do you sense any feminist remarks here? )

To go back to the conversation, we were discussing the incident where the Commission for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice had killed a man here in Riyadh (as was mentioned in news because he might have been selling alcohol!)

Bro: he deserves it.. it is against the law to sell alcohol in Saudi Arabia
me: no one deserves to die the way he did, even if he did sell alcohol, he should stand against a judge and wait for what ever sentence is stated.
Bro: they were doing their job
me: killing people is their job? what do the police do?
Bro: well.. they are all corrupt, police even more than the religious police
me: how in hell do you justify them breaking into homes and killing people knowing they were corrupt?
Bro: this is a part of society and we have to accept it.. there are alot of animals out there.. and we just have to learn to fit in, obide the rules and deal with them!
me: (thinking… shit.. he is even more screwed up than I thought)
So you would rather sit back and do nothing? just try to fit in knowing it’s wrong?
bro: WE CAN NEVER CHANGE THIS SICK SOCIETY.. it will always be the same. why waist your energy for nothing ?
me: I would rather die knowing I made a small change in someone’s life than sit on my lazy pathetic ass.. like you!
bro: don’t waste your time.. it is useless..
me: I am shocked at your passive way of thinking.. because of you and people like you.. this society will take steps backwards rather than forward.. God help us!
(the arguement ended at that.. he stormed out of the room and I got even more depressed!)

I agree with both of you.. education is the key.. textbooks should be changed.. parents and teachers have to be more educated.. it is all so overwhelming.. where to start? parents? how to educate a man/woman who have been brainwashed by society.
boys should be raised the same way as girls with the same responsibilities (boys are treated like minature kings.. no responsibilities what so ever! while girls have been taught early in life to help mom at home, take care of bro’s/sis’s..plus education…etc)

Studies have shown that girls in Saudi have higher GPA’s (grade point average) than boys do at school and university.
I don’t think it is because girls are smarter (although I would love to believe so ) but it is because girls are taught to be more responsible, the society has always found excuses for boys.. they are paying the price now!

Wafa, you probably come here with a scientific view and that’s great!!!! I am trained in the social sciences (what is called ‘humanities’, right?). So I cannot assume a scientific persepctive, it is not my strength, but if it’s yours use it for the benefit of us all. I am assuming a sort of philosophical-poetic stance here, as you can see. I will not cobtradict on the Y-cromosome, that goes without question. BUT beyond scientific FACTS, a lot is just learned and it is grounded as you said in the ‘cultural values’ we support as a society.

Where to start? The most childish thought has errupted in my mind right now, and I will call it humour: Mothers, train the king(s) first! And king(s), learn to listen to your mothers! And kings, learn to be like mothers, nurturing and respectful of the ones in need.
This thought, as clean as it is, sounds hilarious! Where is the queen and what is her role in this society?
All this is bullshit because it’s not functional. We have to start with the laws, the human laws that acknowledge human rights I am a complete stranger to your religion, but since this is a religiously trained society, perhaps the holy book needs to be read more respectfully and more carefully and more openly at the same time. That ‘textbook’ doen’t need any cleaning and any changes but HOW we read it…well, people need to approach it with clean hands and minds right? But none of this is my business. Religion is your turf, you have to find the proper people among you, the proper teachers and I hope there are women teaching religion as well. And I love the fact that the Koran is already discussed on this site, among Muslims from different areas: it’s an open forum. I will share this with you Rasha, with the risk of being considered nuts. One evening in Riyadh I heard for the first time the voice of a child calling for prayer. I was stunned as I was ealking in the street with my husband and I told him: This is the most beautiful sound I heard in Riyadh (besides the sound of silence). I ( a stranger, a woman and a teacher) would love to hear this healing sound. Not a man’s voice calling for prayer ij the megaphone but a child, a girl or a boy, perhaps different ones every evening. I was almost drunk with this thought and it was a good thing that my husband laughed at me. I was a joke! Asw light as a joke, I mean.

But for the rest, you need to set up organizations: teacher training courses men and women sent to the best universities in the world, for instance. Your government has the money, do you realise how empowering can this become?! And then, in turn these can be the ones who train others. You are a proof, Rasha. You also need a more open Saudi press and TV with solid educational programs, not closed to the West but perhaps less open to the crap. (Ok, I’m not going to define crap, right now because we will never end)
You have the money and you have the good intentions but you (as a nation) are overriden by FEAR. Kids can have health education classes in schools. In schools, you can start parenting classes. I don’t know, you guys, get moving, pay the parents to come to these sessions, I don’t know!!!! If you claim you have enough people who are well trained, then where are they?! They have to get involved beyond their jobs to set up grassroots training organizations and institutes and work with the West, not against it. Actually, instead of brining so many engineers and doctors in here you should bring people from the UN, you should bring unbiased top international consultants to help you set up the right organizations. Screen the Western organizations (the ones concerned with human rights and peace rather then screening them based on how much money they can make for you in the short term)only) and bring the right people in to help you.

I have no clue what I am talking about of course! I have broad visions only — it is not my country after all and all I can do is teach art (or through art) and write. But if you were able to come a long way from tribal infancy into the ‘adulthood’ of 21st century, then you ought to be able to filter the crap in Western history too for the benefit of us all, take the best achievents and the model of great organizations and start working towards achieving clear goals. You need to look at EDUCATION, ENVIRONMENT, HUMAN RIGHTS that include EVERYBODY (no discriminations here, women and children, foreign workers, prisoners included), ANIMAL RIGHTS perthaps and for the rest, you name it because I am going bisark right now.

I have a feeling that men get influenced easily by their surroundings more than women do! they fit in easily.. (just an observation).

Very interesting, it must be a cultural thing because in the West, this applies more to a woman than a man.

That’s pretty funny: the concept of religious police! Hahaha. Do they check that people say their prayers at night? It’s all about control… governments want it, they crave it. The government leaders want control over their people. The men want control over the women. Looks like Saudi A. is on the way to being a Taliban-like state!

I came across this website after investigating torture in Saudi Arabia. I am a revert to Islam. Let the Saudi’s reading this post know that the actions of your government in this regards are a disgrace internationally to Islam, especially as Muslims are urged to take Hajj in your country! I have decided to put my public practice on Islam (going to masjid)on hold because of what I have read about Saudi business and people practices. There must be no monarchy, no Kings or Queens in any country, especially an Islamic one. It is not just about your country’s practices. It is about the practice in the name of Islam. This is worse than terrorism, because terrorism can be denouced on humanitarian grounds. The Muslim community internationally allows this torture, abuse of international workers, etc. to go on uncriticized. This is wrong! I will not stand by and say and do nothing. There will be no Hajj from me at any time until this type of government stands in the land of the Kabah.