I have a feeling that men get influenced easily by their surroundings more than women do! they fit in easily.. (just an observation).

Very interesting, it must be a cultural thing because in the West, this applies more to a woman than a man.

But for the rest, you need to set up organizations: teacher training courses men and women sent to the best universities in the world, for instance. Your government has the money, do you realise how empowering can this become?! And then, in turn these can be the ones who train others. You are a proof, Rasha. You also need a more open Saudi press and TV with solid educational programs, not closed to the West but perhaps less open to the crap. (Ok, I’m not going to define crap, right now because we will never end)
You have the money and you have the good intentions but you (as a nation) are overriden by FEAR. Kids can have health education classes in schools. In schools, you can start parenting classes. I don’t know, you guys, get moving, pay the parents to come to these sessions, I don’t know!!!! If you claim you have enough people who are well trained, then where are they?! They have to get involved beyond their jobs to set up grassroots training organizations and institutes and work with the West, not against it. Actually, instead of brining so many engineers and doctors in here you should bring people from the UN, you should bring unbiased top international consultants to help you set up the right organizations. Screen the Western organizations (the ones concerned with human rights and peace rather then screening them based on how much money they can make for you in the short term)only) and bring the right people in to help you.

I have no clue what I am talking about of course! I have broad visions only — it is not my country after all and all I can do is teach art (or through art) and write. But if you were able to come a long way from tribal infancy into the ‘adulthood’ of 21st century, then you ought to be able to filter the crap in Western history too for the benefit of us all, take the best achievents and the model of great organizations and start working towards achieving clear goals. You need to look at EDUCATION, ENVIRONMENT, HUMAN RIGHTS that include EVERYBODY (no discriminations here, women and children, foreign workers, prisoners included), ANIMAL RIGHTS perthaps and for the rest, you name it because I am going bisark right now.

I had a conversation that pissed me off with one of my brothers the other day, we have both been raised by the same mother and father BUT the boys have been raised to have little more privilages than we girls have..
and because of that.. boys have become spoiled and lazy while women are proving to be hard working and succesfull. (do you sense any feminist remarks here? )

To go back to the conversation, we were discussing the incident where the Commission for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice had killed a man here in Riyadh (as was mentioned in news because he might have been selling alcohol!)

Bro: he deserves it.. it is against the law to sell alcohol in Saudi Arabia
me: no one deserves to die the way he did, even if he did sell alcohol, he should stand against a judge and wait for what ever sentence is stated.
Bro: they were doing their job
me: killing people is their job? what do the police do?
Bro: well.. they are all corrupt, police even more than the religious police
me: how in hell do you justify them breaking into homes and killing people knowing they were corrupt?
Bro: this is a part of society and we have to accept it.. there are alot of animals out there.. and we just have to learn to fit in, obide the rules and deal with them!
me: (thinking… shit.. he is even more screwed up than I thought)
So you would rather sit back and do nothing? just try to fit in knowing it’s wrong?
bro: WE CAN NEVER CHANGE THIS SICK SOCIETY.. it will always be the same. why waist your energy for nothing ?
me: I would rather die knowing I made a small change in someone’s life than sit on my lazy pathetic ass.. like you!
bro: don’t waste your time.. it is useless..
me: I am shocked at your passive way of thinking.. because of you and people like you.. this society will take steps backwards rather than forward.. God help us!
(the arguement ended at that.. he stormed out of the room and I got even more depressed!)

I agree with both of you.. education is the key.. textbooks should be changed.. parents and teachers have to be more educated.. it is all so overwhelming.. where to start? parents? how to educate a man/woman who have been brainwashed by society.
boys should be raised the same way as girls with the same responsibilities (boys are treated like minature kings.. no responsibilities what so ever! while girls have been taught early in life to help mom at home, take care of bro’s/sis’s..plus education…etc)

Studies have shown that girls in Saudi have higher GPA’s (grade point average) than boys do at school and university.
I don’t think it is because girls are smarter (although I would love to believe so ) but it is because girls are taught to be more responsible, the society has always found excuses for boys.. they are paying the price now!

I will end on a highly apologetic note! I am NOT preaching nor trying to prove any point really. I am just thinking out aloud. Pls. forgive me and correct me if I am saying stupid things or things that shouldn’t be said on this forum.

I must say, I’ve found this thought (in your comment) very insightful:
“I think that proper behaviour comes from within not from a man with a beard. Islam judges an individual on his actions not of another. So protection from what?!? oursleves?”

Then, you voiced an intriguing thought: “Men are men regardless. A saudi man will look at a woman by the way his mum raised him. I blame most mothers for the dis-respect of the Men towards women.”
Yes, but where are the fathers in this picture? I agree that, perhaps by nature, perhaps by nurture, perhaps both, mothers get closer to their childern and tend to spend more time with them (especially if they are not working outside the house). But fathers teach by example. No matter the situation, a child observes both parents and inherits the ‘atmosphere’ of that relationship. No matter what the mother does and teaches her child, s/he will still look at the dad and then, when in turn s/he grows up and educates children, s/he will carry on a baguage from home.
Another thought: no matter how much you work at home, there is the school expertience and the experiences earned in mingling with people outside home. And no matter how much the school does (supposing that you send your kids to an excellent school), what’s done at home has to match the same standards somehow. You have to work on all fronts. Both parents have to participate in their children’s lives.
What I see happening in Saudi? I see very united families and communities — that’s wonderful! But I see no purposeful strive to educate those kids at home (I’m generalizing, of course). I also see a lot of wealthy parents who travel a lot and leave the kids with maids and tutors, even at a young age! To the point that they send the nanny to school to discuss matters with the teacher. Now that’s simply wrong and I don’t need to bring arguments, I hope. It’s a well known thing in the WEst and I am sure it makes sense anywhere: Parenting is a job. Parental love is one thing and ‘parenting’ is another. You guys have to find a way to educate the parents first. Notice here I do not speak about men and women.

To respond to Rasha’s question, I will just tell you one true story(one of those eye-opening Bangs! I experienced recently). We were invited to a dinner at other teachers (a couple from New Zealand whom we didn’t know well). Present at the dinner was another Canadian couple. The atmosphere was intimate and cosy, fine food, a hint of home-made red wine (forgive me for saying this — none of us got drunk ok?). Here’s what was happening: The youngest son was helping the parents serve the food (the maid was in the kitchen to help with clearing them dishes – we never saw the maid). Without any warning, just naturally, the men (both the host and the guests) were helping with carrying dishes and changing food. Women did that too. We kind of took turns without really thinking about it. Here’s one more: The host (the man) had cooked all the food. The wife said she did it on another ocasion but that her husband is actually better at this. Both men (not my husband though — he is awful at cooking and I am too) at some point started talking about food and cooking — they were both pationate about such things. The women were talking about books and then we all talked about…well, just about life, and laughed a lot. Both couples that I met there had each 3 kids at home. The woman from New Zealand has three boys whom I know personally, they’re funny, witty and have no problem doing dishes and cleaning their rooms. They have no girlfriends yet plenty of very good friends who happen to be girls or boys.
I am not exagerrating a bit. Actually, we came back home struck. My huisband said “Boy, I wished I knew how to cook!” And I said: “Well, I wished that too because I am not that good with cooking, although I try to do my best!” But he also coined a weird remark in there . He said: ” Ah, this woman TRAINED her husband and those boys…” There was a hint of criticism and male pride in that statement because my husband was raised in a traditional family where the mother came from work and cooked and tend for the kids while the father came from work and rested in front of the TV. (G_d bless the maids! We were raised in a no-maid environment but maids, if one can afford them, can offer so much help!). My husband’s parents were fine people you see, but the father NEVER helped the wife in any house matters. He had been raised that way. On the other hand, my parents were always working side by side. Ok, my father doesn’t cook unless he is home alone, simply because it is not one of his strenghths but for anything else in the house, he participates fully and without any questioning. He was raised that way — there were 10 kids in his family and each had his specific role and tasks. In school, there were cooking and home-mechanics classes for fun (after school) open for both boys and girls. Just like art classes. Of course many boys thought cooking or even painting was lame, as lame perhaps as a pink shirt. These are learned things — don’t tell me we were born that way because that would kinda’ racist — as if girls and boys were two different races. THey’re different though in many respects and it’s been proven that they learn differently as well. Although there are more refined theories (loike the theory of multiple intelligencies — see Harvard’s Howard Gardner) that looks at the matter beyond gender differences.

Oh, stop me! I’m taking up too much space again!!!!

Things have changed, yes, thanks to alqeada and the bombings, it made alot of ppl wake up and smell the coffee “Not all ppl with beards are righteous” Now even if we see them in the streets and malls, they are weaker and the fear is lessening.

lamer, Men are men regardless. A saudi man will look at a woman by the way his mum raised him. I blame most mothers for the dis-respect of the Men towards women.
My brother for one, has been raised between independant sisters and has a healthy respect for women. He is proud when he sees his sister equal to any man, and I am. And I can say so is my Dad though it shocked him to see his youngest girl in that light.
As I said before, change will come from us and educating those around us!

They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter.

(Lamer, don’t forget that Saudi men are not used to socializing with women, especially western women.. )
A saudi man can be so arrogant when talking to a woman sometimes. (he assumes that he knows it all and she knows nothing!)

They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter.

Rasha

I believe this is true. I know it from the maids and workers themselves, although it depends where and for whom they are working. The irony is that many maids are`treated badly (agressively) by the women who hire them and by the children in those families, not by the men. This ought to be fixed from ‘up’ there with proper laws, law enforcement and education.

I have to back up Rasha on this one. None of the Saudi men I personally met talked about 3rd world women in those terms. Their attitude is superior and some (possibly many) withhold their salaries for several months or more etc. But most men that I met (except the muttawas, of course) are actually kind. They act stupidly according to my standards, but that’s another matter. Education is key!!! In this case, ignorance is their bliss and our … I don’t know…in my case, they get on my nerves, that’s all.

most Saudis and muttawa know that all women coming from 3rd world countries, including the Phillipines, are all whores

I found that sentence grotesque.. I know that many think they are the real Islam and look inferiorly upon others, I am even sure that some sick minds think that way.. but not most Saudi’s!

ALL WOMEN are considered inferior whether they are Saudi or NOT! and that is a fact.
I do agree with you in that many people who work here from the third world countries as you have mentioned are treated VERY badly. I call it slavery and believe me whether the Saudi’s like it or not.. IT WILL CHANGE.. maybe slowly BUT SURELY.

Stories abound of women from third world countiy women being abducted, raped, and abused, and sometimes killed, by these rightious defineder of Islam. And what recourse do these women have? NONE!!! After all, what Saudi in thier right mind would take the word of Ethiopian whore (and most Saudis and muttawa know that all women coming from 3rd world countries, including the Phillipines, are all whores).

These women pay a Saudi to sponcer them into the Kingdom in the hopes of eraning money for themselves and their families back home. They then work for months to pay for the Saudis services. Often times the woman will pay 3 to 4,000 USD for a 2 year work visa (Iqama) in the hope of obtaining a job that pays less than 300 USD per month. They pay for their own way to and from Saudi. They want to leave, pay again for an exit visa. Why not just leave? How? The sponcer keeps their passports.

So you take poor womem who are trying to provide for themselves and their families, place them in a country where they are considered less than dirt, and subject them to the brutality of the muttawa. What can they do? Nothing!!!