Comments on: Saudi Ministry of Interior Comments on Religious Police http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/ Thinking Ahead Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:46:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Steve http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9051 Steve Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:13:12 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9051 I came across this website after investigating torture in Saudi Arabia. I am a revert to Islam. Let the Saudi's reading this post know that the actions of your government in this regards are a disgrace internationally to Islam, especially as Muslims are urged to take Hajj in your country! I have decided to put my public practice on Islam (going to masjid)on hold because of what I have read about Saudi business and people practices. There must be no monarchy, no Kings or Queens in any country, especially an Islamic one. It is not just about your country's practices. It is about the practice in the name of Islam. This is worse than terrorism, because terrorism can be denouced on humanitarian grounds. The Muslim community internationally allows this torture, abuse of international workers, etc. to go on uncriticized. This is wrong! I will not stand by and say and do nothing. There will be no Hajj from me at any time until this type of government stands in the land of the Kabah. I came across this website after investigating torture in Saudi Arabia. I am a revert to Islam. Let the Saudi’s reading this post know that the actions of your government in this regards are a disgrace internationally to Islam, especially as Muslims are urged to take Hajj in your country! I have decided to put my public practice on Islam (going to masjid)on hold because of what I have read about Saudi business and people practices. There must be no monarchy, no Kings or Queens in any country, especially an Islamic one. It is not just about your country’s practices. It is about the practice in the name of Islam. This is worse than terrorism, because terrorism can be denouced on humanitarian grounds. The Muslim community internationally allows this torture, abuse of international workers, etc. to go on uncriticized. This is wrong! I will not stand by and say and do nothing. There will be no Hajj from me at any time until this type of government stands in the land of the Kabah.

]]> By: yanga http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9050 yanga Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:49:08 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9050 That's pretty funny: the concept of religious police! Hahaha. Do they check that people say their prayers at night? It's all about control... governments want it, they crave it. The government leaders want control over their people. The men want control over the women. Looks like Saudi A. is on the way to being a Taliban-like state! That’s pretty funny: the concept of religious police! Hahaha. Do they check that people say their prayers at night? It’s all about control… governments want it, they crave it. The government leaders want control over their people. The men want control over the women. Looks like Saudi A. is on the way to being a Taliban-like state!

]]> By: Jin http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9049 Jin Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:40:44 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9049 <blockquote>I have a feeling that men get influenced easily by their surroundings more than women do! they fit in easily.. (just an observation).</blockquote>Very interesting, it must be a cultural thing because in the West, this applies more to a woman than a man.

I have a feeling that men get influenced easily by their surroundings more than women do! they fit in easily.. (just an observation).

Very interesting, it must be a cultural thing because in the West, this applies more to a woman than a man.

]]> By: lamer http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9048 lamer Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:05:54 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9048 Where to start? The most childish thought has errupted in my mind right now, and I will call it humour: Mothers, train the king(s) first! And king(s), learn to listen to your mothers! And kings, learn to be like mothers, nurturing and respectful of the ones in need. This thought, as clean as it is, sounds hilarious! Where is the queen and what is her role in this society? All this is bullshit because it's not functional. We have to start with the laws, the human laws that acknowledge human rights I am a complete stranger to your religion, but since this is a religiously trained society, perhaps the holy book needs to be read more respectfully and more carefully and more openly at the same time. That 'textbook' doen't need any cleaning and any changes but HOW we read it...well, people need to approach it with clean hands and minds right? But none of this is my business. Religion is your turf, you have to find the proper people among you, the proper teachers and I hope there are women teaching religion as well. And I love the fact that the Koran is already discussed on this site, among Muslims from different areas: it's an open forum. I will share this with you Rasha, with the risk of being considered nuts. One evening in Riyadh I heard for the first time the voice of a child calling for prayer. I was stunned as I was ealking in the street with my husband and I told him: This is the most beautiful sound I heard in Riyadh (besides the sound of silence). I ( a stranger, a woman and a teacher) would love to hear this healing sound. Not a man's voice calling for prayer ij the megaphone but a child, a girl or a boy, perhaps different ones every evening. I was almost drunk with this thought and it was a good thing that my husband laughed at me. I was a joke! Asw light as a joke, I mean. But for the rest, you need to set up organizations: teacher training courses men and women sent to the best universities in the world, for instance. Your government has the money, do you realise how empowering can this become?! And then, in turn these can be the ones who train others. You are a proof, Rasha. You also need a more open Saudi press and TV with solid educational programs, not closed to the West but perhaps less open to the crap. (Ok, I'm not going to define crap, right now because we will never end) You have the money and you have the good intentions but you (as a nation) are overriden by FEAR. Kids can have health education classes in schools. In schools, you can start parenting classes. I don't know, you guys, get moving, pay the parents to come to these sessions, I don't know!!!! If you claim you have enough people who are well trained, then where are they?! They have to get involved beyond their jobs to set up grassroots training organizations and institutes and work with the West, not against it. Actually, instead of brining so many engineers and doctors in here you should bring people from the UN, you should bring unbiased top international consultants to help you set up the right organizations. Screen the Western organizations (the ones concerned with human rights and peace rather then screening them based on how much money they can make for you in the short term)only) and bring the right people in to help you. I have no clue what I am talking about of course! I have broad visions only -- it is not my country after all and all I can do is teach art (or through art) and write. But if you were able to come a long way from tribal infancy into the 'adulthood' of 21st century, then you ought to be able to filter the crap in Western history too for the benefit of us all, take the best achievents and the model of great organizations and start working towards achieving clear goals. You need to look at EDUCATION, ENVIRONMENT, HUMAN RIGHTS that include EVERYBODY (no discriminations here, women and children, foreign workers, prisoners included), ANIMAL RIGHTS perthaps and for the rest, you name it because I am going bisark right now. Where to start? The most childish thought has errupted in my mind right now, and I will call it humour: Mothers, train the king(s) first! And king(s), learn to listen to your mothers! And kings, learn to be like mothers, nurturing and respectful of the ones in need.
This thought, as clean as it is, sounds hilarious! Where is the queen and what is her role in this society?
All this is bullshit because it’s not functional. We have to start with the laws, the human laws that acknowledge human rights I am a complete stranger to your religion, but since this is a religiously trained society, perhaps the holy book needs to be read more respectfully and more carefully and more openly at the same time. That ‘textbook’ doen’t need any cleaning and any changes but HOW we read it…well, people need to approach it with clean hands and minds right? But none of this is my business. Religion is your turf, you have to find the proper people among you, the proper teachers and I hope there are women teaching religion as well. And I love the fact that the Koran is already discussed on this site, among Muslims from different areas: it’s an open forum. I will share this with you Rasha, with the risk of being considered nuts. One evening in Riyadh I heard for the first time the voice of a child calling for prayer. I was stunned as I was ealking in the street with my husband and I told him: This is the most beautiful sound I heard in Riyadh (besides the sound of silence). I ( a stranger, a woman and a teacher) would love to hear this healing sound. Not a man’s voice calling for prayer ij the megaphone but a child, a girl or a boy, perhaps different ones every evening. I was almost drunk with this thought and it was a good thing that my husband laughed at me. I was a joke! Asw light as a joke, I mean.

But for the rest, you need to set up organizations: teacher training courses men and women sent to the best universities in the world, for instance. Your government has the money, do you realise how empowering can this become?! And then, in turn these can be the ones who train others. You are a proof, Rasha. You also need a more open Saudi press and TV with solid educational programs, not closed to the West but perhaps less open to the crap. (Ok, I’m not going to define crap, right now because we will never end)
You have the money and you have the good intentions but you (as a nation) are overriden by FEAR. Kids can have health education classes in schools. In schools, you can start parenting classes. I don’t know, you guys, get moving, pay the parents to come to these sessions, I don’t know!!!! If you claim you have enough people who are well trained, then where are they?! They have to get involved beyond their jobs to set up grassroots training organizations and institutes and work with the West, not against it. Actually, instead of brining so many engineers and doctors in here you should bring people from the UN, you should bring unbiased top international consultants to help you set up the right organizations. Screen the Western organizations (the ones concerned with human rights and peace rather then screening them based on how much money they can make for you in the short term)only) and bring the right people in to help you.

I have no clue what I am talking about of course! I have broad visions only — it is not my country after all and all I can do is teach art (or through art) and write. But if you were able to come a long way from tribal infancy into the ‘adulthood’ of 21st century, then you ought to be able to filter the crap in Western history too for the benefit of us all, take the best achievents and the model of great organizations and start working towards achieving clear goals. You need to look at EDUCATION, ENVIRONMENT, HUMAN RIGHTS that include EVERYBODY (no discriminations here, women and children, foreign workers, prisoners included), ANIMAL RIGHTS perthaps and for the rest, you name it because I am going bisark right now.

]]> By: lamer http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9047 lamer Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:11:22 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9047 Wafa, you probably come here with a scientific view and that's great!!!! I am trained in the social sciences (what is called 'humanities', right?). So I cannot assume a scientific persepctive, it is not my strength, but if it's yours use it for the benefit of us all. I am assuming a sort of philosophical-poetic stance here, as you can see. I will not cobtradict on the Y-cromosome, that goes without question. BUT beyond scientific FACTS, a lot is just learned and it is grounded as you said in the 'cultural values' we support as a society. Wafa, you probably come here with a scientific view and that’s great!!!! I am trained in the social sciences (what is called ‘humanities’, right?). So I cannot assume a scientific persepctive, it is not my strength, but if it’s yours use it for the benefit of us all. I am assuming a sort of philosophical-poetic stance here, as you can see. I will not cobtradict on the Y-cromosome, that goes without question. BUT beyond scientific FACTS, a lot is just learned and it is grounded as you said in the ‘cultural values’ we support as a society.

]]> By: Rasha (Saudi Arabia) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9046 Rasha (Saudi Arabia) Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:58:37 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9046 Dear lamer, You pointed out in your last comments one of my biggest fears of raising a child here in this society. I can do my best in influencing my children, to guide them and raise them in an atmosphere free from racism within the walls of my HOME. As you mentioned, these children are exposed to schools, friends even relatives with different upbringings, different ideas, racism .. etc. the child might copy society to try to fit in.. that scares the hell out of me. I can't isolate my child from society.. what is there to do to except do the best that I could.. but the outcome is unknown.. I had a conversation that pissed me off with one of my brothers the other day, we have both been raised by the same mother and father BUT the boys have been raised to have little more privilages than we girls have.. and because of that.. boys have become spoiled and lazy while women are proving to be hard working and succesfull. (do you sense any feminist remarks here? :-) ) To go back to the conversation, we were discussing the incident where the Commission for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice had killed a man here in Riyadh (as was mentioned in news because he might have been selling alcohol!) Bro: he deserves it.. it is against the law to sell alcohol in Saudi Arabia me: no one deserves to die the way he did, even if he did sell alcohol, he should stand against a judge and wait for what ever sentence is stated. Bro: they were doing their job me: killing people is their job? what do the police do? Bro: well.. they are all corrupt, police even more than the religious police me: how in hell do you justify them breaking into homes and killing people knowing they were corrupt? Bro: this is a part of society and we have to accept it.. there are alot of animals out there.. and we just have to learn to fit in, obide the rules and deal with them! me: (thinking... shit.. he is even more screwed up than I thought) So you would rather sit back and do nothing? just try to fit in knowing it's wrong? bro: WE CAN NEVER CHANGE THIS SICK SOCIETY.. it will always be the same. why waist your energy for nothing ? me: I would rather die knowing I made a small change in someone's life than sit on my lazy pathetic ass.. like you! bro: don't waste your time.. it is useless.. me: I am shocked at your passive way of thinking.. because of you and people like you.. this society will take steps backwards rather than forward.. God help us! (the arguement ended at that.. he stormed out of the room and I got even more depressed!) I agree with both of you.. education is the key.. textbooks should be changed.. parents and teachers have to be more educated.. it is all so overwhelming.. where to start? parents? how to educate a man/woman who have been brainwashed by society. boys should be raised the same way as girls with the same responsibilities (boys are treated like minature kings.. no responsibilities what so ever! while girls have been taught early in life to help mom at home, take care of bro's/sis's..plus education...etc) Studies have shown that girls in Saudi have higher GPA's (grade point average) than boys do at school and university. I don't think it is because girls are smarter (although I would love to believe so ;-) ) but it is because girls are taught to be more responsible, the society has always found excuses for boys.. they are paying the price now! Dear lamer,
You pointed out in your last comments one of my biggest fears of raising a child here in this society. I can do my best in influencing my children, to guide them and raise them in an atmosphere free from racism within the walls of my HOME. As you mentioned, these children are exposed to schools, friends even relatives with different upbringings, different ideas, racism .. etc. the child might copy society to try to fit in.. that scares the hell out of me. I can’t isolate my child from society.. what is there to do to except do the best that I could.. but the outcome is unknown..

I had a conversation that pissed me off with one of my brothers the other day, we have both been raised by the same mother and father BUT the boys have been raised to have little more privilages than we girls have..
and because of that.. boys have become spoiled and lazy while women are proving to be hard working and succesfull. (do you sense any feminist remarks here? :-) )

To go back to the conversation, we were discussing the incident where the Commission for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice had killed a man here in Riyadh (as was mentioned in news because he might have been selling alcohol!)

Bro: he deserves it.. it is against the law to sell alcohol in Saudi Arabia
me: no one deserves to die the way he did, even if he did sell alcohol, he should stand against a judge and wait for what ever sentence is stated.
Bro: they were doing their job
me: killing people is their job? what do the police do?
Bro: well.. they are all corrupt, police even more than the religious police
me: how in hell do you justify them breaking into homes and killing people knowing they were corrupt?
Bro: this is a part of society and we have to accept it.. there are alot of animals out there.. and we just have to learn to fit in, obide the rules and deal with them!
me: (thinking… shit.. he is even more screwed up than I thought)
So you would rather sit back and do nothing? just try to fit in knowing it’s wrong?
bro: WE CAN NEVER CHANGE THIS SICK SOCIETY.. it will always be the same. why waist your energy for nothing ?
me: I would rather die knowing I made a small change in someone’s life than sit on my lazy pathetic ass.. like you!
bro: don’t waste your time.. it is useless..
me: I am shocked at your passive way of thinking.. because of you and people like you.. this society will take steps backwards rather than forward.. God help us!
(the arguement ended at that.. he stormed out of the room and I got even more depressed!)

I agree with both of you.. education is the key.. textbooks should be changed.. parents and teachers have to be more educated.. it is all so overwhelming.. where to start? parents? how to educate a man/woman who have been brainwashed by society.
boys should be raised the same way as girls with the same responsibilities (boys are treated like minature kings.. no responsibilities what so ever! while girls have been taught early in life to help mom at home, take care of bro’s/sis’s..plus education…etc)

Studies have shown that girls in Saudi have higher GPA’s (grade point average) than boys do at school and university.
I don’t think it is because girls are smarter (although I would love to believe so ;-) ) but it is because girls are taught to be more responsible, the society has always found excuses for boys.. they are paying the price now!

]]> By: lamer http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9045 lamer Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:58:31 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9045 Oh, and upon further thought, we have to be careful how we approach the idea of the Mother. The Mother can be like a Father, overpowering and oppressive (I am talking in symbolic terms here!!!). On the other hand, the father can be like a mother in many respects (and I am purposefully not using capital letters here). I am talkikng about parents. I know we don't choose our mothers, they choose us in a sense. But in theory and in life we should ask ouselves WHO or WHAT does the Mother represent and what does she do to us? We want authority in the sense of reasonable, healthy rules but we do not want AUTHORITY in human form, right? We need to be nurtured and loved by this mother or father of ours, not threatened and abused. Now I am trying to assume the voice of a child. Maybe that's something that resonates in the holy books? I don't know, you know better. I heard once an amazing Muslim student (a girl who does amazing art) taking a verse from the holy book (something formulated as a question, as if the father-mother (that kind of generic parent) was asking the child (humanity) something like: "It is We that ....or you (people) that...? -- where 'We' represented the authority of G_d. I loved the fact that it was formulated as a question and that instead of that overpowering 'I', it was formulated openly as 'We') I am sorry I forgot the whole thing and I do not have any further knowledge on that. In Christianity the idea of the FATHER, the idea of AUTHORITY is interesting as well. The father becomes nurturing, becomes LIKE a mother in that sense. And also, the father becomes the son. It's a different concept of authority. I will end on a highly apologetic note! I am NOT preaching nor trying to prove any point really. I am just thinking out aloud. Pls. forgive me and correct me if I am saying stupid things or things that shouldn't be said on this forum. Oh, and upon further thought, we have to be careful how we approach the idea of the Mother. The Mother can be like a Father, overpowering and oppressive (I am talking in symbolic terms here!!!). On the other hand, the father can be like a mother in many respects (and I am purposefully not using capital letters here). I am talkikng about parents. I know we don’t choose our mothers, they choose us in a sense. But in theory and in life we should ask ouselves WHO or WHAT does the Mother represent and what does she do to us? We want authority in the sense of reasonable, healthy rules but we do not want AUTHORITY in human form, right? We need to be nurtured and loved by this mother or father of ours, not threatened and abused. Now I am trying to assume the voice of a child. Maybe that’s something that resonates in the holy books? I don’t know, you know better. I heard once an amazing Muslim student (a girl who does amazing art) taking a verse from the holy book (something formulated as a question, as if the father-mother (that kind of generic parent) was asking the child (humanity) something like: “It is We that ….or you (people) that…? — where ‘We’ represented the authority of G_d. I loved the fact that it was formulated as a question and that instead of that overpowering ‘I’, it was formulated openly as ‘We’) I am sorry I forgot the whole thing and I do not have any further knowledge on that. In Christianity the idea of the FATHER, the idea of AUTHORITY is interesting as well. The father becomes nurturing, becomes LIKE a mother in that sense. And also, the father becomes the son. It’s a different concept of authority.

I will end on a highly apologetic note! I am NOT preaching nor trying to prove any point really. I am just thinking out aloud. Pls. forgive me and correct me if I am saying stupid things or things that shouldn’t be said on this forum.

]]> By: wafa (Saudi) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9044 wafa (Saudi) Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:23:23 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9044 no honey, the power of a woman is to train her man without him knowing! a man will never accept to be consciously trained. LOL its in the genes I think the Y-chromsome!! no honey,
the power of a woman is to train her man without him knowing! a man will never accept to be consciously trained. LOL its in the genes I think the Y-chromsome!!

]]> By: lamer http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9043 lamer Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:18:23 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9043 Yes, wafa, actually the word TRAINING is not that bad. Men have to accept to be trained first and then, we can just train each other, like we do here. People in general have to re-learn how to think constructively, how to ask the right questions. Kids do it naturally, innocently, I should say but then...we train them so well :) that they forget how to ask those questions, they learn to respect Authority (I should perhaps not capitalise here) instead of respecting themselves and others around them. Yes, wafa, actually the word TRAINING is not that bad. Men have to accept to be trained first and then, we can just train each other, like we do here. People in general have to re-learn how to think constructively, how to ask the right questions. Kids do it naturally, innocently, I should say but then…we train them so well :) that they forget how to ask those questions, they learn to respect Authority (I should perhaps not capitalise here) instead of respecting themselves and others around them.

]]> By: wafa (Saudi) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9042 wafa (Saudi) Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:10:50 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/09/saudi-ministry-of-interior-comments-on-religious-police/#comment-9042 about maids i agree you with you some ppl just totally ignore their children. but again i dont want to generalise. some of the women doing that would be the stay home mum and ironically the career driven working woman is more invovled with her kids. I see it in my family and the ppl around me! again it goes back to values. Once when my nephews father was out of town, my brother went to speak to the teachers and be there. something we have here is strong family ties. The role of the father!? is there but who was his mum! LOL. I also believe that a woman can teach her man anything, i have a metaphor I wont use or all the men in the sight will get insulted! :) Men are like ...... ;) its how you train him! goes for all men! about maids i agree you with you some ppl just totally ignore their children. but again i dont want to generalise. some of the women doing that would be the stay home mum and ironically the career driven working woman is more invovled with her kids. I see it in my family and the ppl around me! again it goes back to values. Once when my nephews father was out of town, my brother went to speak to the teachers and be there. something we have here is strong family ties.
The role of the father!? is there but who was his mum! LOL. I also believe that a woman can teach her man anything, i have a metaphor I wont use or all the men in the sight will get insulted! :) Men are like …… ;) its how you train him! goes for all men!

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