Did you know in Iran … – Killing has been made easy!
Last weekend I was invited to “Lavasun” -A suburban city near “Tehran”-, good weather, sunny day, a cool breeze; everything was perfect, up to the minute when my friend started telling me about a very shocking event.
A week ago or so, Police arrested 3 or 4 young guys because of drinking alcohol and driving without a driving licence, they were sentenced to be whipped (scourged). one of these guys mother was there and she was begging for mercy for her child, all of a sudden one of the boys tried to run away, but they got him on the street and started to beat him as hard as possible! A young man who witnessed this very disturbing scene, got out of his car and objected, he also tried to stop Police from beating him…
What happens next is very sad and disturbing: one of these policemen draw his gun and put a bullet right into his chest and killed him in cold blood…
You wouldn’y hear it on radio or TV, you wouldn’t read it on web, but you can ask each and every person in “Lavasun” about it.
I must add that this is not the first time that someone has been killed by Police.
Police kills normal people as easy as killing a bug! No wonder government kills thousands of people for no good reason!
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Good post Pouyan. Hey do you have an email? send me an email at cityboy[dot]blog[at]gmail[dot]com. Thanks.
What’s to be done in such regimes where change can hardly come from the inside because of heavy repression?
I lived in Romania during the Communist dictatorial regime and I know how many people risked their lives for…apparently nothing. It was a peaceful country though and there were no maniacs thinking to take over the world. With these being said it was still a dictatorial regime and free speech was sanctioned with death. The only thing that sustained us was gthe fact that we had Romanians writing books outside the country, running free Radio stations and a lot of international interest that would write critically about the regime in power. We had ‘heroes’, writers and activists who died in prison after voicing thopughts against the regime in public. And then, things started changing internationally. The wall in Berlin fell, Gorbachev opened up the closure in USSR, the quiet revolution in Prague succeeded, and Romanians got in the streets and fought for change. People were boiling inside but nothing could have been achieved without international support. THat’s why I find it very hard to think of social change happening from inside an opressive regime only, that’s why sometimes, external forces are needed as well. But then you get into a mess like Iraq!
How do you guys in Iran see it?
As an Iranian I wont let anyone intrude my land even though I hate this regime but I would hate intruders more.
Then, what’s the solution?
No one intruded Romania by the way, when they overturned the dictatorial government. It was done by the people (apparently) BUT there was an international climate in the region (Eastern Europe) that allowed that to happen and also there was a split within the government itself. That happened after 50 years of dictatorship though. So, I guess you guys will have to wait longer unless you work WITH neutral international organizations to bring about peace and social change. You have to want change though and not always work/think AGAINST whatever is not called Iran.
And don’t forget the saying: if you are pleased with (or prefer) what you have, then perhaps you deserve it.
situation of Iran and Romania is not the same.No one gonna help Iran to save its people but to save gas and oil for their own benefits.People of Iran once did a revolution and now seeing the result so no more they are willing to do that again.Iranian deserve much more than you think of,but they always make mistake in making it.if there is a wise in society and the others are average or under average intelligence people what a perfect society it can be but what would happen if most of them are more than average and many wise and some stupid as well it is the situation in Iran.
“what would happen if most of them are more than average and many wise and some stupid as well it is the situation in Iran.”
I have trouble understanding your comment. Are you saying that Iranian people have IQ-s more than average (a superior race, huh?) with many wise but some stupid ones are leading ? Or what exactly are you trying to say?
What do you mean to save gas and oil for their own benefits? It mights be to your benefits as well — it’s your oil after all. + the whole world is striving to turn “green” and find ecologically sound fuel. The price of oil is still a planetary issue and a rise in oil prices would debalance the global economy. You have oil. Fine. Americans are turning their attention to you due to the oil? Fine, you’re still at an advantage compared to people in Darfour who suffer and die without hope for enough attention and help. But I think the world is turning the attention to you guys also because you are run by maniacs and you have military power in the hands of maniacs with no democratric way out. Everybody nowadays realizes how interconnected the world is and how close we are to self-destruction, yet there are still patriots like you who cannot see beyond the fence around their courtyard.
I don’t mean that Iranian are of superior race.there is races in Iran not race as well.and yes they are more intelligent than american for example.so consider a society with lots of intelligent people,every one want to take the lead so I can tell you that there is many who are leading Iran not only Khamenei and Ahmadinejad.they are not maniacs they are so smart but in a disgusting way.if they weren’t they couldn’t handle it.look at what Ahmadinejad is doing due to nuclear problems,making delay and delay and delay and someday he will announce that he has got the bomb. they can manage it easily with stupids and average but not the rest.So what they are doing is using their power against the wise group of people in order to control them.they don’t give us freedom cause it is a danger to them.you go to street and just say sth against them,be sure that you wont get home safe.How people can dare to go to street and protest?how many lives will be lose and for sure there will be no use.and about oil yeah you said it might be.It’s ok you think I am a patriotic who can’t see beyond the fence around my courtyard.
I don’t get this story… I see nothing wrong with it. Try this here and the cop will put a bullet to your head the moment you try to run away. If a civilian interfere with a cop, the cop will do the same thing.
The beating up part is the only issue here, but then again that also happens here and cops rarely get punished for it.
lamer, you wrote, “THat’s why I find it very hard to think of social change happening from inside an opressive regime only, that’s why sometimes, external forces are needed as well. But then you get into a mess like Iraq!”
Iran and other Middle Eastern countries have had external forces interfere with them, that is why they are messed up as they are. THe United States and Britian toppled the democratically elected government in Iran and put in power the Shah. THe United States helped to bring Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, financiallly and strategically, when he was committing his worst artrocites.THe Iraqi people are the scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy.
During the Iran-Iraq war, the United States sold weapons to both sides of the conflict. The Untied States does this sort of thing in Africa, as well.
Regarding the objections of Israel and the United States to Iran’s nuclear palns. are you aware that during the apartheid era of South Africa, Israel helped South Africa build nuclear weapons?
No, I was not aware of the situation you have stated in your last paragraph.
My comments were definitely superficial and responding directly and solely to the tone of superiority (the Iran rules slogan) in Leila’s speech and to her confused/ing statements. My question is genuine and open though: What is the solution? If you can’t seem to be able to bring about social change from inside. Leila voiced the same thing: “How can people dare to go to street and protest?how many lives will be lose and for sure there will be no use.”
Rather than bitching Americans (not that their foreign policy doesn’t deserve to be bitched), what’s there to do, Randall?
“THe United States and Britian toppled the democratically elected government in Iran and put in power the Shah. ” That’s a piece of history I didn’t know about. The Shah was corrupt and at some point even dreamed of attacking Bahrain but fortunately discussed issues with the king of Jordan who was a pacifist. The revolution in Iran started with idealist intellectuals and was stolen by a bunch of religious extremists…although the majority of people voted for them, right?
Leila says “yes they (Iranians) are more intelligent than americans for example”. On the basis of what in the world do you make such statements, girl? ‘
your Leila:
& your Lamer:
Leila you must be very nation-pride (I have a good Iranian friend who is the same) -
I see it more like lamer – there are strict, fascistoid regimes, where a minority of elitarian gangsters rule all their country for years & years & decades – sometimes the response comes from the inside, like the French revolution, but sometimes it’s impossible to revolt from within like e.g. in the “Prague Spring” – in 1968 when a students revolution tried to free the country & got extinguished brutally by Sowiet tank forces..
After the world war II here in Germany all big cities were totally bombed by the Americans, the Britains & the Russians took over from the east -
we’ve been a occupied country for long long years – by USA & Britain in the West – by Russia in the East – & i believe it was a good thing that Germany was conquered & occupied for a while – better occupied than being ruled by those Nazi-fools – & in the last when Germany learnt in long decades to become a democratical country – it became even strong enought to resist USA’s plans to attack Iraq – strong enough to heavily criticize on the G8-meeting recently the environmental policy of USA – yes sometimes it’s better to be intruded, than to be lead by fascoist leaders to the ultimate doom – but of course the revolution from the inside is the much better way -
& at Jina – why do you try to diminuish this story so much – accept it because it’s usual? – it should be made open & condemned whereever it happens, be it Canada, Iran or elsewhere – by the way that’s not the usual thing a cop would do if someone interfers – they’d may be brutal, but not shoot him – if ever so – (of course such things could also happen here) it would be in all the press & news & there would be deep investigations about the need of that shooting – this article above shows the approval of the system behind it to allow such acts without ever condemning them or letting them get to the the public conscience by a high cencorship
Look up Operation Ajax and Mohammed Mosaddeq.
Not trying to diminish anything, just stating facts.
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/05/21/are-you-really-that-stupid/#comments
leila Says:”As an Iranian I wont let anyone intrude my land even though I hate this regime but I would hate intruders more.”
Well that’s the problem isn’t it? The hatred of non-Muslims is so much stronger than the hatred of dictatorship, oppression, murder and torture. As long as so many people in the Middle East will accept being slaves of fellow Muslims rather than touch a kafir hand extended in friendship, the Middle East will rot in poverty, dictatorship and oppression. Good luck with that by the way.
Jina (Web Surgeon) Says:”I don’t get this story… I see nothing wrong with it. Try this here and the cop will put a bullet to your head the moment you try to run away. If a civilian interfere with a cop, the cop will do the same thing.”
I don’t know where “here” is for you, but I strongly doubt that is true. Police in the West may not shoot someone simply for running away. However that is not the point – the young man was not running away. He got caught and was being beaten (something that is rare in the West but happens). As I read the story, another man came to ask them to stop being the boy, and they shot that man. A passer by who did not break the law and was not running or being violent, he just interfered with the police men’s beating. Nowhere in the civilised world will a police man shoot someone simply for asking them to stop beating a suspect. If that is what happens in your neck of the woods I feel sorry for you. If you think that is right I feel even more sorry for you.
RandallJones Says:”Iran and other Middle Eastern countries have had external forces interfere with them, that is why they are messed up as they are.”
So Iran was a haven and peace and democracy before the West started interfering with them was it? The truth as far as I see it, is that the West brought Iran vast gifts of technology and science, made them rich by buying their oil, and saved the Persian people from going extinct – half the population of Iran was Turkic when the West started “interfering”.
RandallJones Says:”THe United States and Britian toppled the democratically elected government in Iran and put in power the Shah. THe United States helped to bring Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, financiallly and strategically, when he was committing his worst artrocites.THe Iraqi people are the scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy.”
None of those claims is true. Why do you believe them? The Shah got rid of Mossadegh when Mossadegh attempted a coup. How you can claim that he was democratically elected is beyond me. At most the West helped the Shah do it. But so what? Governments usually fall by coup in the Middle East. No one cares except when the West benefits – the real story here is not the fall of a government, but the hatred of the West. The US did nothing to bring Saddam to power. Nor did they support him. They gave some limited support to US exports to Iraq during the Gulf War. The French, the Soviets and the other Arabs were his great allies. Why do you want to believe this blatantly untrue claims?
RandallJones Says:”During the Iran-Iraq war, the United States sold weapons to both sides of the conflict. The Untied States does this sort of thing in Africa, as well.”
Well no they did not. They had and have a boycott on selling weapons to bad people. They did trade some TOW missiles for their hostages with Iran but otherwise sold them nothing. The Americans sold Saddam about 0.5 percent of his weapons and even then most of them were things like civilian helicopters which Saddam then turned into gun ships and not weapons as such.
RandallJones Says:”Regarding the objections of Israel and the United States to Iran’s nuclear palns. are you aware that during the apartheid era of South Africa, Israel helped South Africa build nuclear weapons?”
And the relevance of this would be what?
I can’t even begin to explain how painfully ignorant this statement is… any person, regardless of their religion or nationality, doesn’t want war within their countries. Any person would hate the oppressor no matter who is oppressing or occupying them. So your comment is not only irrelevant, it’s embarrassingly inaccurate, as there are many Iranian Jews or Iranian Baha’is or Iranian Christians or atheist Iranians who actually LOVE their country and who would state the same thing Leila stated above. The “hatred of non-Muslim” bullshit has no place in this argument, and thus your seemingly anti-Islamic comment is not a valid refutation of Leila’s correct remarks.
HeiGou:
Who the hell talked about moslem and non moslem?I meant any country, it could be Iraq in past and may US now.It is not about religion.I don’t want my country worst than this.I don’t want it like it is in Iraq.I don’t want it to be destroyed.
I don’t remember begging west to buy our oil.And for your information 5 provinces of Iran are and were turks ,formal language of Iranian is and was Persian and Don’t talk about extinction of Persian again it is more like a joke.By the way Persian and Turk make no difference both are Iranian.
mossadeq served as the Prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953. He was democratically elected to the parliament, and as leader of the nationalists was twice appointed as prime minister by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, after a positive vote of inclination by the parliament.Mossadegh was a nationalist and passionately opposed foreign intervention in Iran. He was also the architect of the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry which had been under British control through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, today known as British Petroleum .
Due to a multitude of disagreements with his former allies, especially the communists and Islamists, and disagreements with the Shah and with the parliament over his handling of the talks regarding compensation of the British side, he dissolved the parliament using a referendum to avoid impeachment. This act was characterized as unconstitutional by some of his closest allies as well as opponents, and led to the Shah’s dismissing him from office on August 16, 1953 . Mossadegh later insisted that the text of the constitution was subject to interpretation, and that his actions had been in accordance with its spirit rather than its text. He eventually was removed from power on August 19, 1953, by military intervention. The coup was supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments and led by General Fazlollah Zahedi . The American operation to encourage it was run by CIA agent Kermit Roosevelt, Jr., the grandson of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, and came to be known as Operation Ajax, after its CIA cryptonym, and as the “28 Mordad 1332″ coup, after its date on the Iranian calendar. Dr. Mosaddeq was imprisoned for three years and subsequently put under house arrest, and never again actively participated in politics. He is in many countries considered a symbol of anti-imperialism.
The United States had been wary of the Islamic Republic of Iran since the Iranian Revolution, not least because of the kidnapping of its Tehran embassy staff in the 1979-81 Iran hostage crisis. According to former Iranian president, Abolhassan Bani-Sadr, shortly after the 1979 revolution Americans, Israelis, Iranian royalists at a secret meeting in Paris drew up a plan to invade Iran. Soviets then obtained a copy of the plan and sold it to Iran through intermediaries for $200,000. According to Robert Parry there was a secret encouragement by the US administration (President Jimmy Carter, conveyed through Saudi Arabia) which was embroiled in a dispute with the new Islamic Republic of Iran. In the words of Alexander Haig, secretary of state from 1981, “It was also interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd.” However, Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s National Security Advisor (United States) does not support this assertion.
Starting in 1981, both Iran and Iraq attacked oil tankers and merchant ships, including those of neutral nations, in an effort to deprive the opponent of trade. After repeated Iraqi attacks on Iran’s main exporting facility on Khark Island, Iran attacked a Kuwaiti tanker near Bahrain on May 13, 1984, and a Saudi tanker in Saudi waters on May 16. Attacks on ships of noncombatant nations in the Persian Gulf sharply increased thereafter, and this phase of the war was dubbed the “Tanker War.”
In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.President Ronald Reagan decided that the United States “could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran”, and that the United States “would do whatever was necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran.”President Reagan formalized this policy by issuing a National Security Decision Directive (“NSDD”) to this effect in June, 1982.
Lloyd’s of London, a British insurance market, estimated that the Tanker War damaged 546 commercial vessels and killed about 430 civilian mariners. The largest of attacks were directed by Iran against Kuwaiti vessels, and on November 1, 1986, Kuwait formally petitioned foreign powers to protect its shipping. The Soviet Union agreed to charter tankers starting in 1987, and the United States offered to provide protection for tankers flying the U.S. flag on March 7, 1987 (Operation Earnest Will and Operation Prime Chance). Under international law, an attack on such ships would be treated as an attack on the U.S., allowing the U.S. to retaliate militarily. This support would protect ships headed to Iraqi ports, effectively guaranteeing Iraq’s revenue stream for the duration of the war.
An Iraqi plane attacked the USS Stark (FFG 31), a Perry class frigate on May 17, killing 37 and injuring 21.However, U.S. attention was focused on isolating Iran; it criticized Iran’s mining of international waters, and sponsored UN Security Council Resolution 598, which passed unanimously on July 20, under which it skirmished with Iranian forces. In October 1987, the U.S. attacked Iranian oil platforms in retaliation for an Iranian attack on the U.S.-flagged Kuwaiti tanker Sea Isle City.
On April 14, 1988, the frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts was badly damaged by an Iranian mine. U.S. forces responded with Operation Praying Mantis on April 18, the United States Navy’s largest engagement of surface warships since World War II. Two Iranian ships were destroyed, and an American helicopter crashed with no apparent combat damage, killing the two pilots.
In the course of these escorts by the U.S. Navy, the cruiser USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 with the loss of all 290 passengers and crew on July 3, 1988. The American government claimed that the airliner had been mistaken for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat, and that the Vincennes was operating in international waters at the time and feared that it was under attack. The Iranians, however, maintain that the Vincennes was in fact in Iranian territorial waters, and that the Iranian passenger jet was turning away and increasing altitude after take-off. U.S. Admiral William J. Crowe also admitted on Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles. . The U.S. eventually paid compensation for the incident (to non Iranian passengers of the airliner), but never apologized.
According to an investigation conducted by ABC News’ Nightline, decoys were set during the war by the US Navy inside the Persian Gulf to lure out the Iranian gunboats and destroy them, and at the time USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian airline, it was performing such an operation.
Esra’a Says:”I can’t even begin to explain how painfully ignorant this statement is… any person, regardless of their religion or nationality, doesn’t want war within their countries.”
Well the ignorance is something I can do little about but the verb chosen was not “war” but “intrude”. No one wants war, or even intrusion, in their own countries. Most of us do not want it anywhere else either. However in some circumstances sensible people tend to accept that such “intrusion” is the lesser of two evils.
Esra’a Says:”Any person would hate the oppressor no matter who is oppressing or occupying them.”
Again you effortlessly glide over two separate words and so distort the meaning of what I said. Occupation? Who said a word about occupation?
The fact is that what America wanted for Iraq (and perhaps for Iran as well) was what happened to Japan or West Germany. Perhaps South Korea as a worst case. But Leila would prefer that women continue to be stoned to death for being raped and the Mullahs remain in control than accept help from America and have Iran turn out like Germany – or at least that is my assumption of what she was saying. You don’t think that works from the basic assumption of malice towards the West?
Yet again you jump to a hasty conclusion.
Did I say you specifically said or even implied that? Hmm. NO. So who is the one putting words in the other’s mouth? I merely clarified her statement, which you seem to have entirely misunderstood. You took her words to be “we hate non-Muslims more than we hate our own dictators….” totally unacceptable interpretation of what she stated, which is nowhere close to what you made it out to be.
leila Says:”Who the hell talked about moslem and non moslem?I meant any country, it could be Iraq in past and may US now.It is not about religion.I don’t want my country worst than this.I don’t want it like it is in Iraq.I don’t want it to be destroyed.”
This problem seems uniquely Muslim, but perhaps I leapt that that assumption. Most of the world is happy to accept help and support from other countries. Except the Muslim world. Iraq turned out like it is because of people who share your assumption, not because of America. America wanted a free, democratic and rich Iraq, but too many Iraqis preferred civil war and violence to allowing America build a new Iraq. No doubt you are right and Iran would turn out the same way – but not because of America.
leila Says:”I don’t remember begging west to buy our oil.”
Really? The Qajar government was so desperate for Western companies to develop Iran’s oil they sold the rights to all the oil for 60 years the British for 10,000 pounds. The West has taken something worth nothing in Iran and made it valuable. They have paid a good price for it too. Without the West Iran, with its oil, would be like Mauretania.
leila Says:”And for your information 5 provinces of Iran are and were turks ,formal language of Iranian is and was Persian and Don’t talk about extinction of Persian again it is more like a joke.By the way Persian and Turk make no difference both are Iranian.”
It is not a joke. The Iranians failed to defend their borders. The Turkic peoples were coming in and displacing them, taking their farm lands for their sheep. If the West had not stepped in extinction would have been a risk – just as happened to the Persian-dialect speakers to the north in what is now Uzbekistan. Like Bukhara and Samarkand, all the inhabitants of Isfahan might have been speaking Turkic now.
leila Says:”mossadeq served as the Prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953. He was democratically elected to the parliament, and as leader of the nationalists was twice appointed as prime minister by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, after a positive vote of inclination by the parliament.”
So the Parliament – a corrupt and undemocratic play thing of the Shah – elected him Prime Minister? How is this democratic?
leila Says:”This act was characterized as unconstitutional by some of his closest allies as well as opponents, and led to the Shah’s dismissing him from office on August 16, 1953 . Mossadegh later insisted that the text of the constitution was subject to interpretation, and that his actions had been in accordance with its spirit rather than its text.”
So Mossadegh refused to leave office after he was dismissed. Legally dismissed. He launched his own coup. The Iranian Army, with Western help, threw him out. Where is the crime here? Since 1945 Syria has had six Constitutions and over twenty five governments. Mostly removed by coups. Who remembers even one of them much less cares? The coup is not the issue otherwise we all would care about Syria too.
leila Says:”According to former Iranian president, Abolhassan Bani-Sadr, shortly after the 1979 revolution Americans, Israelis, Iranian royalists at a secret meeting in Paris drew up a plan to invade Iran. Soviets then obtained a copy of the plan and sold it to Iran through intermediaries for $200,000.”
In other words it is probably a Soviet lie and even if it is not, America did not, after all, invade.
leila Says:”However, Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s National Security Advisor (United States) does not support this assertion.”
So there is no evidence that America helped start the War.
leila Says:”In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.”
Intelligence? You mean pictures of Iranian positions? Economic aid? The Department of Agriculture was allowed to lend Iraq money to buy American wheat. Weapons? Less than half of one percent of Saddam’s weapons came from America – look at the SIPRI report.
leila Says:”In October 1987, the U.S. attacked Iranian oil platforms in retaliation for an Iranian attack on the U.S.-flagged Kuwaiti tanker Sea Isle City.”
So Iran attacks America, America responds. What is the problem?
leila Says:”In the course of these escorts by the U.S. Navy, the cruiser USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 with the loss of all 290 passengers and crew on July 3, 1988. The American government claimed that the airliner had been mistaken for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat, and that the Vincennes was operating in international waters at the time and feared that it was under attack. The Iranians, however, maintain that the Vincennes was in fact in Iranian territorial waters, and that the Iranian passenger jet was turning away and increasing altitude after take-off. U.S. Admiral William J. Crowe also admitted on Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles. . The U.S. eventually paid compensation for the incident (to non Iranian passengers of the airliner), but never apologized.”
So the V might have been accidentally in Iranian waters, but so what? There is no evidence this was deliberate and it looks as if what the Americans said was true – they thought it was a Tomcat.
I don’t see how any of this does anything except refute the claim that were made earlier. If this is the best you can come up with then clearly America was not at war with Iran nor was it helping Saddam. Who they did not put in power.
LOL. Sure, blame America’s failures in Iraq on Muslims. This is as embarrassing as the Arab world obsessing over “Zionist conspiracies.”
When you’re too proud to accept, admit, and condemn the failures… cluelessly blame someone else!
Esra’a Says:”LOL. Sure, blame America’s failures in Iraq on Muslims. This is as embarrassing as the Arab world obsessing over “Zionist conspiracies.—
America’s failures are America’s fault. However their main failure in Iraq was a generous one – they assumed that Iraqis wanted to be free and democratic. They assumed that Iraq would be like Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union. So they did not bother sending in 500,000 soldiers. They did not shoot looters on the streets. They took their time. Dysfunctional tribal societies are not something they have had a lot of experience with. But their intention was a good one. The main “failures”, if you can call it that, are Iraqi and the first of those is the assumption that anything the kafirs do must be evil and so resisted. The difference here with the Zionist conspiracy is that it is hate-filled and factually void. The Americans gave the Iraqi people too much credit. This is precisely the pathology I might have mentioned earlier. There is so much hate in the Middle East that the Iraqis prefer civil war and torture to peace under American guidance.
Esra’a Says:”When you’re too proud to accept, admit, and condemn the failures… cluelessly blame someone else!”
I am not America so it is not an issue of pride, but it is ironic that someone from the Middle East should be accusing anyone of that. When has anyone from the Middle East ever accepted responsibility for anything going wrong? Ever?
Esra’a Says:”Yet again you jump to a hasty conclusion. Did I say you specifically said or even implied that? Hmm. NO. So who is the one putting words in the other’s mouth?”
Then your comments are a non sequitor. Either they were relevant to what I said or they were not.
Esra’a Says:”I merely clarified her statement, which you seem to have entirely misunderstood. You took her words to be “we hate non-Muslims more than we hate our own dictators….†totally unacceptable interpretation of what she stated, which is nowhere close to what you made it out to be.”
If it was totally wrong as interpretations go I fail to see how nor do you explain how. She said that as unpleasant as the dictators of the Middle East are, they are preferable to any outside “intrusion”. Anyone who looks at America and Iran and says they prefer the Mullahs to anything America might possibly want for Iran is dealing with a different set of assumptions to the rest of us. If she did not mean that – and she did not say a word about occupation – what did she mean?
Compton, Suuth Central, Bed Sty, Red Hook? Have you ever been to these places?
Great, lumping 250+ million people as one. You are a genius, pat yourself on the back.
Melissa, I think this guy lives in a cave with internet access… somehow…
But can he even read? That is the question… here we admit many mistakes. Look at Ray for example condemning Hamas attacks, Dalia condemning Egyptian torture, Sudanese condemning inter-Arab/Muslim violence, Iranians condemning attacks on foreigners let alone our own campaign that asks to secure the release of an Iranian-American journalist at Evin prison… yes all of us apparently don’t exist! When have we ever blamed America or any other country solely for all of the above errors? Try never.
Really, with such a poor statement, I don’t think we should even bother with this guy. An entire blog in front of his eyes that admits, condemns, and takes action against all of our grave mistakes … and here he is, claiming that no one within the ENTIRE region is doing that! Sigh.
By the way, I find it hilarious that he said that in a post where Pouyan is criticizing his OWN country! The very thing that HeiGou is saying we in the Middle East never do. Ha.
I witness people on this board do it everday.
Melissa Says:”Compton, Suuth Central, Bed Sty, Red Hook? Have you ever been to these places?”
Can you please provide me with a single reference to a single case of a police man callously murdering any passer by who asked them to stop beating a suspect, or even just talking back, within the last century in any of those places.
Was your comment an attempt to deflect the issue or do you really believe this?
Esra’a Says:”By the way, I find it hilarious that he said that in a post where Pouyan is criticizing his OWN country! The very thing that HeiGou is saying we in the Middle East never do. Ha.”
Actually he is not. He is criticising a few policemen in his own country. And not to kafirs either but on a Muslim board which may be irrelevant.
Is Pouyan responsible for those policemen? Of course not. How does your comment relate in any way whatsoever to anything I said? Attacking your political opponents (I assume they are anyway) is not the same as admitting a personal failing. It is not even close.
sorry guys, I’ll try answer to all your replies very soon, it’s just I’m at the middle of university exams!
Can you please clarify how someone can admit a personal failing if they are not personally responsible for the failures of our society as a whole?
I have admitted personal failures before especially on my posts here regarding migrant rights. That means I apologized for my lack of awareness which in turn adds to our problem (with no awareness, and with no effort to stay aware of abuses of migrant workers, we are thus contributing to our problems)… so why do you state that no one in the ENTIRE Middle East ever admit personal failings? Many here condemn violence, all forms of it, and none of these people are personally responsible. So what exactly are you asking for and why are you criticizing us on something you’re a) not even sure of and b) can’t possibly verify, knowing that you don’t speak all languages within the Middle East. Most of our media sources are not in English, that means the international world is unaware of most of the opinions expressed within the region… meaning you wouldn’t know who is apologizing, admitting their mistakes, and condemning violence. Please don’t judge an entire region based on so few sources.
Let’s start with the Rampart Police scandal stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, falsifying reports, and covering up evidence of these activities.where More than 70 police officers in the CRASH unit were implicated in misconduct, making it one of the most widespread cases of documented police misconduct in U.S. history. The convicted offenses include unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting of evidence, framing of suspects. Should I continue?
oh so let us send american a message :hi dear US army please come to our
beloved Iran destroy it and kill little children, women, men but give us the democracy you gave to
Afghans and Iraqis .I may not be alive to see that democracy but it’s ok Don’t let us be like Mauretania .
Please go and review Iran’s history once more. you even don’t know the first part of all Iran’s history book: Aryans came to Iran ,they were in 3 parts :made(went to east and north east of Iran where now you call them Turks),Persian(went to east and central )part(went to north and north west).by the way most people of Bokhara and Samarqand still know Persian.
Parliments were elected by people and then to be prime minister shah (the dictator who came by coup)should had accepted him.
The crime is where Mossadeq was people’s hero at that time and west threw him out .Do you have any evidence to prove American did not help?
Killing 290 passengers and then didn’t pay them and apologize .I wish you could see the scene of getting children and women which were tore in parts out of water. F-14 Tomcat does not looks like a passenger airliner any way.
I must say, that I totally agree with Leila, she lives in Iran, and she knows whats going on! I believe each and every word she has said up to now.
Lamer you asked so whats the solution?
Being “rescued” by another country, or accept the current regime, are not our “only” options. you are thinking “BINARY”! there’s a third way, I’m sure there’s one, but I haven’t figured it out yet,a lot of people think by voting and choosing the “better one” as our president we can sail to a place where we can build a better country (a better Islamic Republic) but I don’t believe that, We (people) need to read a lot and discuss these issues a lot, in order to find “the third way”, but I can assure you no foreign country can help Iran.
HeiGou:
What about reading the history? elite group of Iranians talked greek about 300B.C to 100 A.C, so what? did we lose our country? did the west helped us to get it back? oh I forgot, west was so busy slaving africans! what happend? Muslims from Saudi Arabia attacked Iran, don’t ask how they won the war! we were once the one and only superpower of the world, and now we have to read our history to know what happend and why! and believe me west didn’t help us, it took advantages of us, mostly in “Qajar” (Ghaajaar) era.
no one can save us but ourselves, and what you -my friends- can do, is to discuss different ways with us.
Esra’a Says:”Can you please clarify how someone can admit a personal failing if they are not personally responsible for the failures of our society as a whole?”
The policeman who shot dead that passer by can trivially apologise for doing so (a personal failing) without being responsible for every single failing in Iran as a whole. He won’t of course. I have tried to think hard of a Middle Eastern politician who has ever taken personal responsibility for a mistake. I could not think of one offhand. A British Minister resigned when Argentina invaded the Falklands. He felt he was to blame. The closest I could think of was General Amr who committed suicide in Egypt after 1967 but he was probably “helped”.
Esra’a Says:”so why do you state that no one in the ENTIRE Middle East ever admit personal failings?”
Because I have never seen or heard of an example. I am open to suggestions.
Melissa Says:”Let’s start with the Rampart Police scandal stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, falsifying reports, and covering up evidence of these activities.”
In other words you cannot. Thank you for trying though.
Melissa Says:”Should I continue?”
Let me know when you have started.
leila Says:”oh so let us send american a message :hi dear US army please come to our beloved Iran destroy it and kill little children, women, men but give us the democracy you gave to Afghans and Iraqis .”
I can’t say I see it happening. However you did not object to invasion, but “intrusion”. That is a lot weaker. So your choice seems to be outside support for democracy or a few hundred years of Mullahocracy. Your choice.
The problems is Iraq and Afghanistan remain the problems of the Iraqi and Afghan people. They have adopted your point of view which simply perpetuates the problems.
leila Says:”Please go and review Iran’s history once more. you even don’t know the first part of all Iran’s history book: Aryans came to Iran ,they were in 3 parts :made(went to east and north east of Iran where now you call them Turks),Persian(went to east and central )part(went to north and north west).”
Come on, this is absurd. Turkic is not Indo-European. Farsi is. The Turks are not relatives of the Persian at least linguistically. There were no Turks in Persia when Alexander the Great turned up.
leila Says:”by the way most people of Bokhara and Samarqand still know Persian.”
I am not even going to bother responding to that.
leila Says:”Parliments were elected by people and then to be prime minister shah (the dictator who came by coup)should had accepted him.”
The Shah actually came to power when the British and Soviets put him on the Throne. Not a coup. The Iranian Parliament in 1950 was not elected by the people and the Parliament tried to dismiss Mossadegh too. He did not want to go and launch a coup. Why do you believe what you believe?
leila Says:”The crime is where Mossadeq was people’s hero at that time and west threw him out .Do you have any evidence to prove American did not help?”
I do not deny for a second America helped, but they only helped. They did not cause. There is no crime. Democracy does not mean doing whatever the Mob wants. Mossdegh tried to set up his own dictatorship. He was dismissed legally, he refused to go illegally. The West did not throw him out, the Persian Army did.
leila Says:”Killing 290 passengers and then didn’t pay them and apologize .”
They did pay compensation. Accidents happen. All the time. At least America does not blow airliners out of the sky deliberately like so many friends of the Islamic Republic of Iran – even if they were not behind the Lockerbie tragedy.
leila Says:”F-14 Tomcat does not looks like a passenger airliner any way.”
It does, apparently, on radar.
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”Being “rescued†by another country, or accept the current regime, are not our “only†options. you are thinking “BINARYâ€! there’s a third way, I’m sure there’s one, but I haven’t figured it out yet”
Right. As I said. You are welcome to think of a third way, but I don’t see it happening soon. How many Middle Eastern countries have become democratic without US pressure? Your choices are not binary, I’ll agree, you can also pray for a miracle perhaps even come up with your own alternative. But I don’t see it happening.
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”a lot of people think by voting and choosing the “better one†as our president we can sail to a place where we can build a better country (a better Islamic Republic) but I don’t believe that”
Well correct me if I am wrong but didn’t you try that already?
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”We (people) need to read a lot and discuss these issues a lot, in order to find “the third wayâ€, but I can assure you no foreign country can help Iran.”
Then you ought to stop asking for money and support. I am happy for you all to go your own way and end up wherever you end up. As long as we all agree it has got nothing to do with us. The best solution is probably the Sharon Wall on a vast scale.
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”What about reading the history? elite group of Iranians talked greek about 300B.C to 100 A.C, so what? did we lose our country? did the west helped us to get it back? oh I forgot, west was so busy slaving africans!”
This is my point about hatred. The West was slaving Africans? In 100 AD? The only people doing that were Muslim and for a long time after.
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”Muslims from Saudi Arabia attacked Iran, don’t ask how they won the war! we were once the one and only superpower of the world, and now we have to read our history to know what happend and why! and believe me west didn’t help us, it took advantages of us, mostly in “Qajar†(Ghaajaar) era.”
Iranians lost their country before Iran was even born. All of Iranian history is the history of foreign conquerors ruling the country and exploiting the peasants. For a long time most of those invaders were also Persian speakers from Central Asia. Then the Greeks came. Then the Persians had some new nomadic rulers, then the Arabs came and then the Turks. As far as I can see Khomeini was the first non-nomadic Iranian to ever rule Iran. It is nice that you were a superpower once, but then the Arabs came and made imitation Arabs of the Persians. The West did not help then I agree, but then the West would not have fallen to the Muslims if the Persians hadn’t kept attacking it. Took advantage? Look at Iran today. Everything of any value is the work of the West. Iran did not invent motor cars. The West did. Iran did not invent plastic surgery. The West did. The West taught Iranians about these things. Without the West’s purchase of oil Iran would be as poor as Mali. I know this is going to upset you but it is true. The West may have taken a few things (although I can’t think of anything off hand) but it has given vastly more in return. Any sensible reading of history would acknowledge that.
Pouyan (Iran) Says:”no one can save us but ourselves, and what you -my friends- can do, is to discuss different ways with us.”
That just means that you are going to continue as you have continued for the last 1400 years – you will have repressive Muslim governments formed by whoever holds the most power. I would like to see another way but I don’t think it is likely.
let me tell you a story:
about 400B.C there was a council in which 7 great men were discussing Iranians government issues -at that time Iran was known as the one and only superpower of the world by the Greeks. A man named “Hootaneh” suggested that the best way is to have Democratic government, Another man called “Megabiz” voted for an Oligarchy government, and “Darius the great” himself voted for Monarchy, I am sorry to inform you that “democray” is nothing new to Iranian people, and we need no one to bring it here! and FYI: if you haven’t heard about “Oligarchy”, I must say a lot of sociologists believe that now a days, all governments are “Oligarchy” somehow, because neither all the people rule a country nor a person -with no help. So there’s always “a group of people” who rule the country (A.K.A. Oligarchy).
Actually I don’t remember “us” begging money from “you”, we all know that Iran is one of the richest countries of the “world” we both have oil and mineral sources, sorry but I think neither your money is needed nor your support!
sorry man but this is the last time I’ll discuss these matters with you from a historical aspect, surely you haven’t read a lot about ancient history, 100A.C there were no muslims!
but for the sake of discussion; read this:
Before “Feudalism ages”, slavary was something common around the world. Throughout the world, “Roman Empire”‘s Slaves had the worst living conditions, Plato -the Philosopher- believed that if any slave refused his master’s orders, the master has the right to cut his hands or foot, kill him or even kill his family. but at the same time slaves here in Iran, were being paid, it’s also good to know that the slaves who build the Perspolis were being paid and all of them were insured.
and it’s also good to know that “Iran” was ahead about 300 years or so in every “Era of history” before great wars started to happen.
are you kidding me or what? who found “Alcohol” without alcohol there will be no surgery, who advanced mathematics ? that’s nonsense! if you wanna talk that way I can talk ages! when west had no city, “Neishaboor” had at least 1,700,000 people, when west was busy with “Spartacus” Iranians used “Roads” as a mean of communication! but I don’t talk about these things, cause they are nonsense. Oh by the way, I know theres a “Brain Surgery” assembly in Germany, which is the best in the whole world, do you know who is at the top? An Iranian guy, called Dr. Samie. so please spare me the nonsense!
get a ticket and come here (if your not afraid to) I will show you around and you’ll know. Esra’a has came here and she agrees.
HeiGou,
You ask “So Iran was a haven and peace and democracy before the West started interfering with them was it?â€
The West was not peaceful and democratic before its interference with Iran. There were two Word Wars, where hundreds of millions were killed.
You point out that the West gave Muslims Scientific inventions. Well during the European Dark Ages, Muslims gave the West many scientific inventions, literature, and art. http://www.muslimheritage.com/
After World War II, America accepted many German Nazi scientists into the country. Should American Jews forget about the Holocaust because of the contributions of these Nazis? See this article http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20051116-nazi-operation-overcast-harry-truman-henry-morgenthau-allies-japan-ussr-scientists-missile-sputnik-apollo-immigration.shtml
The United States has never had objections to selling weapons, knowing that they would result in the deaths of millions.
They may every once in a while put on a show; saying they have sanctions against a certain country for their human rights violations. But when it comes to making money from selling weapons that perpetuate violence and the exploitation of natural resources, the United States has no objections to doing so.
See http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292
and http://worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm
Jina has provided links to the western role in toppling the Iranian government. And here is an article about the U.S. role in helping Saddam into power. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html
HeiGou, you wrote, “There is so much hate in the Middle East that the Iraqis prefer civil war and torture to peace under American guidance.”
How do you explain the hatred of American foreign policy in the Christian parts of Africa and South America? I don’t think you would appreciate having bombs being dropped on your head and home while being taught how to be “civilized.” Even the Chinese objected to Western imperialism.
Azerbaijan is believed to be named after Atropates, a Median satrap (governor) who ruled in Atropatene (modern Iranian Azarbaijan).[17] Atropates is derived from Old Persian roots meaning “protected by fire.
Caucasian Albanians are believed to be the earliest inhabitants of Azerbaijan (turkic province of Iran) Early invaders included the Scythians in the ninth century BCE.[19] Following the Scythians, the Medes came to dominate the area to the south of the Aras.[17] The Medes forged a vast empire between 900-700 BCE, which was overthrown by the Achaemenids around 550 BCE. During this period, Zoroastrianism spread in the Caucasus and Atropatene. The Achaemenids in turn were defeated by Alexander the Great in 330 BCE, but the Median satrap Atropates was allowed to remain in power.
The Medes (Old Persian: MÄda) were an ancient Iranian people, who lived in the north, western, and northwestern portions of present-day Iran, and roughly the areas of present day Kurdistan, Hamedan, Tehran, Azarbaijan, north of Esfahan and Zanjan. This abode of the Medes was known in Greek as Media or Medea (Μηδία; adjective Median, antiquated also Medean). They entered this region in the second millennium BC.
all these information is from wikipedia.
hamedan azerbaijan zanjan north of isfahan all are turks now,so where are the medes?all replaced by turks?so who are the turks?they are not medes?who are they?
I am not even going to bother responding to the other parts. just have it in mind that americans didn’t pay compensation to iranian passengers and didn’t apologize.
leila doesnt represent iran and iranians she can speak for herself.. the fact is IRANian goverment does have its hardcore supporters and does enjoy political stability. people are unhappy mainly for economic reasons , however not looking for regime change..!
I personaly think that elections speak for itself and lets not forget out of 60% participation in elections ahmadinejad recieved 21 million votes , 3 million were nulled as reformists held the counting posts but still 18 million votes are behind President Ahmadinejad…. Leila calles him a maniac, i dont see why as he is a great iranian patriot..! the fact is i remember america had many supporters in iran in 2000, today america and bush are compared to nazi germany and despised by iranians even iranians in the west arnt fond of u.s.a policy.. IRAN is on a roll to Greatness and nothin can stop it..
Leila, I guess they did pay.
I heard from my husband that our army airplanes were flying in the same range as our airbuses, and America warned iran because they knew, Well Iranian army was trying to conceal or protect its flights over the region by doing that, so if American wanted to shoot the army plane then the airbus would be sot as well, and Iran was taking advantage of the situation, you know we are all stained with the blood of the innocent, we are all to be blamed, that is because we take the safety of innocent people for granted when we think what we do is just. All the countries do that, and they all stick foe the ame reason. What i am going to say is we all share this dirty quality, but the ones with more power can be blamed more. American people have nothing to do with that event, nor our people in the whole hostage taking and threats to this country and that. I believe in people, but i believe when one is representing all, that single people might lead every one to hell, and people might not want that, but it happens. Like when a group of deers are trying to migrate and one leads the group, the one in the front makes a miatake of jumpoing down a steep hill into the rocks and the rest follow, you will end up with thousands of them being killed the same way. I hope G-d himself bless all of us with wiser leaders who would focus on better things and programs that would boost friendship not the war-machine.
There comes my first question from mehdi:
“Are you living in Iran”
if no:
you must pay a visit and see what’s happening over there and compare it with some “developed” and “rich” countries, it’s just a mater of math: 2+2=4! they don’t even appreciate the youth, the energy they have, the values they’re representing and so on. the poor is sinking, and there’s no social net to save him. I hear the sound of “let the bastard die, let him die alone” from “above”.
if yes:
you must pay a visit to a “rich” and “developed” country to see what’s really going on. to see “human rights” in action (I don’t want to name a country as some utopia or to say that human rights are fully represented in these countries), to see the appreciation of society and government towards the students and people.
we are a rich country for sure, and we are on our way to development, but there are no signs of paying a little bit respect to the people who built this land.
you say that he received 21 million votes, I’m here to say that he cheated, I didn’t vote, and I know a million people who didn’t vote as well and they know also a million people who didn’t vote too ,each and every one of them. if Leila isn’t representing Iran, nor Ahmadinejad does.
We are going down, and you’re right nothing can stop it now, it’s too late.
Pouyan,
Let me tell you somer thing, I feel that the world doesn’t care for the oppositiion, not matter how great be the number of people who disagree, but as long as we don’t have Da Power” in our hands, we are ignored altogether. From the time we gain power then we are good enough to be considered as species you know, and we cannot gain power as long as we are not ibntergated. Well we cannot have organizations that bring us together, suppose we cannot have labor unions, or student unions. At the same time, I don’t see why we hesistate in demonstrating our oppositions the way they do. I know it is dangerous, but there had been times when we had faced catastrophic situations without fear. I just know what i wrong with us, how come we are so scared of the idiots? ?
I just read your, Mehdi’s comment:
well – sometimes in a country the blind fools are in majority – even democracy can’t help against that – here in Germany once a majority voted for Hitler who later started a lot of wars. by the way starting World War II & let kill more than 600.000 Jews (& alos Gypsies, Homosexuals, Religious people, even handicapped people (unworthy life) & opponents) in his concentration camps – but the majority of German voters in that time voted for him – so what was wrong in that? – he was a mass muerderer, but he got voted by a majority of ignorant rascist fools..
& there where lot of dynasties where most of the population voted (or would have voted) for a promising dictator who promised them richness & fortune by raiding other countries & for killing, plundering, destroying, conquering & raping – well with the will of the majority behind
I once in my youth read an satirical cartoon – it was: “millions of flies eat shit – millions of of flies can’t be wrong – so do eat shit!”
everywhere lives a majority of fools who fall in for sweet lying slogans & vote for those who impress them – if there would be democratical votes in Sizilia, probably the Mafia would rule & also Hamas got voted by majority -
Even if I believe in democracy – not as the best kind of regimen, but as maybe the best compromize to a balance of powers within a country – I really would fight any result of votes, if a gangster or fascist regime would overcome our country.
& of course Ahmadinejad is also in my eyes a lunatic & maniac & I really disgust & despise him for his support to Hizbollah & Hamas & for his remarks to extinguishing Israel.
your:
this remembers me to all the big words once Germany had in the 30ies last century on its way to Greatness & later on to it’s deep desaster – I know that Iran is strong & it overrules the whole region – if it ever attacks or gets attacked, it can hurt a lot of others too – remember Germany was hard to conquer & there died millions & millions on both sides until the war was over – I fear that Iran is on the way to a similar showdown scene – sooner or later -
sorry – wrong quote in my last comment – it was not 600.000 Jews killed in holocaust, but about 6 Mio. to 8 Mio. – see here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html
dear Elinor,
It’s not a matter of fear, I , myself, see nothing good in protesting madly and being killed or being arrested and lose 1 or 2 years of my life. I see our problem , today, not in the braveness of our people but in the knowledge, I confess that I had a very narrow horizon before I moved to Germany, now I see the opportunities I have, the facilities offered at the university, the living conditions and etc. I see the same potential in Iran, we have both the culture and the money, but the knowledge is taken from the majority.
I’m not supporting revolution nor voting, I’ve started looking for the third way, as I believe that we are offered with more than just a binary choice!
please don’t ask “what’s the third way?” I’m no sociologist nor a leader, I’ just a student who tries his best to get educated to see what’s really going on!. I , alone, cannot save Iran, but we together can, for sure.
we just need to educate ourselves.