how come we are so scared of the idiots? ?

dear Elinor,
It’s not a matter of fear, I , myself, see nothing good in protesting madly and being killed or being arrested and lose 1 or 2 years of my life. I see our problem , today, not in the braveness of our people but in the knowledge, I confess that I had a very narrow horizon before I moved to Germany, now I see the opportunities I have, the facilities offered at the university, the living conditions and etc. I see the same potential in Iran, we have both the culture and the money, but the knowledge is taken from the majority.
I’m not supporting revolution nor voting, I’ve started looking for the third way, as I believe that we are offered with more than just a binary choice!
please don’t ask “what’s the third way?” I’m no sociologist nor a leader, I’ just a student who tries his best to get educated to see what’s really going on!. I , alone, cannot save Iran, but we together can, for sure.
we just need to educate ourselves.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html

“18 million votes are behind President Ahmadinejad”

well - sometimes in a country the blind fools are in majority - even democracy can’t help against that - here in Germany once a majority voted for Hitler who later started a lot of wars. by the way starting World War II & let kill more than 600.000 Jews (& alos Gypsies, Homosexuals, Religious people, even handicapped people (unworthy life) & opponents) in his concentration camps - but the majority of German voters in that time voted for him - so what was wrong in that? - he was a mass muerderer, but he got voted by a majority of ignorant rascist fools..

& there where lot of dynasties where most of the population voted (or would have voted) for a promising dictator who promised them richness & fortune by raiding other countries & for killing, plundering, destroying, conquering & raping - well with the will of the majority behind

I once in my youth read an satirical cartoon - it was: “millions of flies eat shit - millions of of flies can’t be wrong - so do eat shit!”

everywhere lives a majority of fools who fall in for sweet lying slogans & vote for those who impress them - if there would be democratical votes in Sizilia, probably the Mafia would rule & also Hamas got voted by majority -

Even if I believe in democracy - not as the best kind of regimen, but as maybe the best compromize to a balance of powers within a country - I really would fight any result of votes, if a gangster or fascist regime would overcome our country.

& of course Ahmadinejad is also in my eyes a lunatic & maniac & I really disgust & despise him for his support to Hizbollah & Hamas & for his remarks to extinguishing Israel.

your:

“IRAN is on a roll to Greatness and nothin can stop it..”

this remembers me to all the big words once Germany had in the 30ies last century on its way to Greatness & later on to it’s deep desaster - I know that Iran is strong & it overrules the whole region - if it ever attacks or gets attacked, it can hurt a lot of others too - remember Germany was hard to conquer & there died millions & millions on both sides until the war was over - I fear that Iran is on the way to a similar showdown scene - sooner or later -

if yes:
you must pay a visit to a “rich” and “developed” country to see what’s really going on. to see “human rights” in action (I don’t want to name a country as some utopia or to say that human rights are fully represented in these countries), to see the appreciation of society and government towards the students and people.

we are a rich country for sure, and we are on our way to development, but there are no signs of paying a little bit respect to the people who built this land.
you say that he received 21 million votes, I’m here to say that he cheated, I didn’t vote, and I know a million people who didn’t vote as well and they know also a million people who didn’t vote too ,each and every one of them. if Leila isn’t representing Iran, nor Ahmadinejad does.
We are going down, and you’re right nothing can stop it now, it’s too late.

I personaly think that elections speak for itself and lets not forget out of 60% participation in elections ahmadinejad recieved 21 million votes , 3 million were nulled as reformists held the counting posts but still 18 million votes are behind President Ahmadinejad…. Leila calles him a maniac, i dont see why as he is a great iranian patriot..! the fact is i remember america had many supporters in iran in 2000, today america and bush are compared to nazi germany and despised by iranians even iranians in the west arnt fond of u.s.a policy.. IRAN is on a roll to Greatness and nothin can stop it..

The West was not peaceful and democratic before its interference with Iran. There were two Word Wars, where hundreds of millions were killed.

You point out that the West gave Muslims Scientific inventions. Well during the European Dark Ages, Muslims gave the West many scientific inventions, literature, and art. http://www.muslimheritage.com/

After World War II, America accepted many German Nazi scientists into the country. Should American Jews forget about the Holocaust because of the contributions of these Nazis? See this article http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20051116-nazi-operation-overcast-harry-truman-henry-morgenthau-allies-japan-ussr-scientists-missile-sputnik-apollo-immigration.shtml

The United States has never had objections to selling weapons, knowing that they would result in the deaths of millions.
They may every once in a while put on a show; saying they have sanctions against a certain country for their human rights violations. But when it comes to making money from selling weapons that perpetuate violence and the exploitation of natural resources, the United States has no objections to doing so.

See http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292
and http://worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm

Jina has provided links to the western role in toppling the Iranian government. And here is an article about the U.S. role in helping Saddam into power. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html

HeiGou, you wrote, “There is so much hate in the Middle East that the Iraqis prefer civil war and torture to peace under American guidance.”

How do you explain the hatred of American foreign policy in the Christian parts of Africa and South America? I don’t think you would appreciate having bombs being dropped on your head and home while being taught how to be “civilized.” Even the Chinese objected to Western imperialism.

How many Middle Eastern countries have become democratic without US pressure?

let me tell you a story:
about 400B.C there was a council in which 7 great men were discussing Iranians government issues -at that time Iran was known as the one and only superpower of the world by the Greeks. A man named “Hootaneh” suggested that the best way is to have Democratic government, Another man called “Megabiz” voted for an Oligarchy government, and “Darius the great” himself voted for Monarchy, I am sorry to inform you that “democray” is nothing new to Iranian people, and we need no one to bring it here! and FYI: if you haven’t heard about “Oligarchy”, I must say a lot of sociologists believe that now a days, all governments are “Oligarchy” somehow, because neither all the people rule a country nor a person -with no help. So there’s always “a group of people” who rule the country (A.K.A. Oligarchy).

Then you ought to stop asking for money and support.

Actually I don’t remember “us” begging money from “you”, we all know that Iran is one of the richest countries of the “world” we both have oil and mineral sources, sorry but I think neither your money is needed nor your support!

The only people doing that were Muslim and for a long time after.

sorry man but this is the last time I’ll discuss these matters with you from a historical aspect, surely you haven’t read a lot about ancient history, 100A.C there were no muslims!
but for the sake of discussion; read this:
Before “Feudalism ages”, slavary was something common around the world. Throughout the world, “Roman Empire”’s Slaves had the worst living conditions, Plato -the Philosopher- believed that if any slave refused his master’s orders, the master has the right to cut his hands or foot, kill him or even kill his family. but at the same time slaves here in Iran, were being paid, it’s also good to know that the slaves who build the Perspolis were being paid and all of them were insured.
and it’s also good to know that “Iran” was ahead about 300 years or so in every “Era of history” before great wars started to happen.

everything of any value is the work of the West. Iran did not invent motor cars. The West did. Iran did not invent plastic surgery. The West did.

are you kidding me or what? who found “Alcohol” without alcohol there will be no surgery, who advanced mathematics ? that’s nonsense! if you wanna talk that way I can talk ages! when west had no city, “Neishaboor” had at least 1,700,000 people, when west was busy with “Spartacus” Iranians used “Roads” as a mean of communication! but I don’t talk about these things, cause they are nonsense. Oh by the way, I know theres a “Brain Surgery” assembly in Germany, which is the best in the whole world, do you know who is at the top? An Iranian guy, called Dr. Samie. so please spare me the nonsense!

I would like to see another way but I don’t think it is likely.

get a ticket and come here (if your not afraid to) I will show you around and you’ll know. Esra’a has came here and she agrees.

Right. As I said. You are welcome to think of a third way, but I don’t see it happening soon. How many Middle Eastern countries have become democratic without US pressure? Your choices are not binary, I’ll agree, you can also pray for a miracle perhaps even come up with your own alternative. But I don’t see it happening.

Pouyan (Iran) Says:”a lot of people think by voting and choosing the “better one” as our president we can sail to a place where we can build a better country (a better Islamic Republic) but I don’t believe that”

Well correct me if I am wrong but didn’t you try that already?

Pouyan (Iran) Says:”We (people) need to read a lot and discuss these issues a lot, in order to find “the third way”, but I can assure you no foreign country can help Iran.”

Then you ought to stop asking for money and support. I am happy for you all to go your own way and end up wherever you end up. As long as we all agree it has got nothing to do with us. The best solution is probably the Sharon Wall on a vast scale.

Pouyan (Iran) Says:”What about reading the history? elite group of Iranians talked greek about 300B.C to 100 A.C, so what? did we lose our country? did the west helped us to get it back? oh I forgot, west was so busy slaving africans!”

This is my point about hatred. The West was slaving Africans? In 100 AD? The only people doing that were Muslim and for a long time after.

Pouyan (Iran) Says:”Muslims from Saudi Arabia attacked Iran, don’t ask how they won the war! we were once the one and only superpower of the world, and now we have to read our history to know what happend and why! and believe me west didn’t help us, it took advantages of us, mostly in “Qajar” (Ghaajaar) era.”

Iranians lost their country before Iran was even born. All of Iranian history is the history of foreign conquerors ruling the country and exploiting the peasants. For a long time most of those invaders were also Persian speakers from Central Asia. Then the Greeks came. Then the Persians had some new nomadic rulers, then the Arabs came and then the Turks. As far as I can see Khomeini was the first non-nomadic Iranian to ever rule Iran. It is nice that you were a superpower once, but then the Arabs came and made imitation Arabs of the Persians. The West did not help then I agree, but then the West would not have fallen to the Muslims if the Persians hadn’t kept attacking it. Took advantage? Look at Iran today. Everything of any value is the work of the West. Iran did not invent motor cars. The West did. Iran did not invent plastic surgery. The West did. The West taught Iranians about these things. Without the West’s purchase of oil Iran would be as poor as Mali. I know this is going to upset you but it is true. The West may have taken a few things (although I can’t think of anything off hand) but it has given vastly more in return. Any sensible reading of history would acknowledge that.

Pouyan (Iran) Says:”no one can save us but ourselves, and what you -my friends- can do, is to discuss different ways with us.”

That just means that you are going to continue as you have continued for the last 1400 years - you will have repressive Muslim governments formed by whoever holds the most power. I would like to see another way but I don’t think it is likely.

The policeman who shot dead that passer by can trivially apologise for doing so (a personal failing) without being responsible for every single failing in Iran as a whole. He won’t of course. I have tried to think hard of a Middle Eastern politician who has ever taken personal responsibility for a mistake. I could not think of one offhand. A British Minister resigned when Argentina invaded the Falklands. He felt he was to blame. The closest I could think of was General Amr who committed suicide in Egypt after 1967 but he was probably “helped”.

Esra’a Says:”so why do you state that no one in the ENTIRE Middle East ever admit personal failings?”

Because I have never seen or heard of an example. I am open to suggestions.

Melissa Says:”Let’s start with the Rampart Police scandal stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, falsifying reports, and covering up evidence of these activities.”

In other words you cannot. Thank you for trying though.

Melissa Says:”Should I continue?”

Let me know when you have started.

leila Says:”oh so let us send american a message :hi dear US army please come to our beloved Iran destroy it and kill little children, women, men but give us the democracy you gave to Afghans and Iraqis .”

I can’t say I see it happening. However you did not object to invasion, but “intrusion”. That is a lot weaker. So your choice seems to be outside support for democracy or a few hundred years of Mullahocracy. Your choice.

The problems is Iraq and Afghanistan remain the problems of the Iraqi and Afghan people. They have adopted your point of view which simply perpetuates the problems.

leila Says:”Please go and review Iran’s history once more. you even don’t know the first part of all Iran’s history book: Aryans came to Iran ,they were in 3 parts :made(went to east and north east of Iran where now you call them Turks),Persian(went to east and central )part(went to north and north west).”

Come on, this is absurd. Turkic is not Indo-European. Farsi is. The Turks are not relatives of the Persian at least linguistically. There were no Turks in Persia when Alexander the Great turned up.

leila Says:”by the way most people of Bokhara and Samarqand still know Persian.”

I am not even going to bother responding to that.

leila Says:”Parliments were elected by people and then to be prime minister shah (the dictator who came by coup)should had accepted him.”

The Shah actually came to power when the British and Soviets put him on the Throne. Not a coup. The Iranian Parliament in 1950 was not elected by the people and the Parliament tried to dismiss Mossadegh too. He did not want to go and launch a coup. Why do you believe what you believe?

leila Says:”The crime is where Mossadeq was people’s hero at that time and west threw him out .Do you have any evidence to prove American did not help?”

I do not deny for a second America helped, but they only helped. They did not cause. There is no crime. Democracy does not mean doing whatever the Mob wants. Mossdegh tried to set up his own dictatorship. He was dismissed legally, he refused to go illegally. The West did not throw him out, the Persian Army did.

leila Says:”Killing 290 passengers and then didn’t pay them and apologize .”

They did pay compensation. Accidents happen. All the time. At least America does not blow airliners out of the sky deliberately like so many friends of the Islamic Republic of Iran - even if they were not behind the Lockerbie tragedy.

leila Says:”F-14 Tomcat does not looks like a passenger airliner any way.”

It does, apparently, on radar.

Can you please provide me with a single reference to a single case of a police man callously murdering any passer by who asked them to stop beating a suspect,

Let’s start with the Rampart Police scandal stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, falsifying reports, and covering up evidence of these activities.where More than 70 police officers in the CRASH unit were implicated in misconduct, making it one of the most widespread cases of documented police misconduct in U.S. history. The convicted offenses include unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting of evidence, framing of suspects. Should I continue?

…. is not the same as admitting a personal failing. It is not even close.

Can you please clarify how someone can admit a personal failing if they are not personally responsible for the failures of our society as a whole?

I have admitted personal failures before especially on my posts here regarding migrant rights. That means I apologized for my lack of awareness which in turn adds to our problem (with no awareness, and with no effort to stay aware of abuses of migrant workers, we are thus contributing to our problems)… so why do you state that no one in the ENTIRE Middle East ever admit personal failings? Many here condemn violence, all forms of it, and none of these people are personally responsible. So what exactly are you asking for and why are you criticizing us on something you’re a) not even sure of and b) can’t possibly verify, knowing that you don’t speak all languages within the Middle East. Most of our media sources are not in English, that means the international world is unaware of most of the opinions expressed within the region… meaning you wouldn’t know who is apologizing, admitting their mistakes, and condemning violence. Please don’t judge an entire region based on so few sources.

Can you please provide me with a single reference to a single case of a police man callously murdering any passer by who asked them to stop beating a suspect, or even just talking back, within the last century in any of those places.

Was your comment an attempt to deflect the issue or do you really believe this?

Esra’a Says:”By the way, I find it hilarious that he said that in a post where Pouyan is criticizing his OWN country! The very thing that HeiGou is saying we in the Middle East never do. Ha.”

Actually he is not. He is criticising a few policemen in his own country. And not to kafirs either but on a Muslim board which may be irrelevant.

Is Pouyan responsible for those policemen? Of course not. How does your comment relate in any way whatsoever to anything I said? Attacking your political opponents (I assume they are anyway) is not the same as admitting a personal failing. It is not even close.

When has anyone from the Middle East ever accepted responsibility for anything going wrong? Ever?

I witness people on this board do it everday.

Melissa, I think this guy lives in a cave with internet access… somehow…

But can he even read? That is the question… here we admit many mistakes. Look at Ray for example condemning Hamas attacks, Dalia condemning Egyptian torture, Sudanese condemning inter-Arab/Muslim violence, Iranians condemning attacks on foreigners let alone our own campaign that asks to secure the release of an Iranian-American journalist at Evin prison… yes all of us apparently don’t exist! When have we ever blamed America or any other country solely for all of the above errors? Try never.

Really, with such a poor statement, I don’t think we should even bother with this guy. An entire blog in front of his eyes that admits, condemns, and takes action against all of our grave mistakes … and here he is, claiming that no one within the ENTIRE region is doing that! Sigh.

I am not America so it is not an issue of pride, but it is ironic that someone from the Middle East should be accusing anyone of that. When has anyone from the Middle East ever accepted responsibility for anything going wrong? Ever?

Great, lumping 250+ million people as one. You are a genius, pat yourself on the back.

Melissa, I think this guy lives in a cave with internet access… somehow…

Nowhere in the civilised world will a police man shoot someone simply for asking them to stop beating a suspect.

Compton, Suuth Central, Bed Sty, Red Hook? Have you ever been to these places?

Then your comments are a non sequitor. Either they were relevant to what I said or they were not.

Esra’a Says:”I merely clarified her statement, which you seem to have entirely misunderstood. You took her words to be “we hate non-Muslims more than we hate our own dictators….” totally unacceptable interpretation of what she stated, which is nowhere close to what you made it out to be.”

If it was totally wrong as interpretations go I fail to see how nor do you explain how. She said that as unpleasant as the dictators of the Middle East are, they are preferable to any outside “intrusion”. Anyone who looks at America and Iran and says they prefer the Mullahs to anything America might possibly want for Iran is dealing with a different set of assumptions to the rest of us. If she did not mean that - and she did not say a word about occupation - what did she mean?