Orphans left to die!
Author: Rasha (Saudi Arabia) - June 20, 2007
American soldiers stumbled upon an orphanage in mid Baghdad to find about twenty starving disabled children ages from seven to ten years who were stark naked and tied up to their bed posts, they were lying on the filthy floor.
American soldiers thought they were dead at first. One child looked up and moved as a soldier threw a ball in to the room!
It is said that the orphanage manager was selling all the clothes and food that were donated by Iraqi people.
I got sick to my stomach upon seeing their picture..
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This is too sick/depressing for words…
wow i have never seen anything so horrible. war zone or not, don’t people have the slightest decency? The book the kite runner has a scene where an orphnage director sells a handful of kids out as sex slaves in order to raise money for the rest. But that stuff is never okay, no matter what the rationale. Far better that the whole orphanage go under than one kid have to pay the price with his life, sanity, health, and future. Mother Teresa was right to give what limited resources came her way to the neediest, to the disabled, in other words, to those at the very bottom of the pile of humanity that faced her, so desperate, anonymous, without hope. Look at what America’s politicians do instead: shower privilege, money, access onto the heads of the richest people in the world, as if that is a good way to allocate scarce resources. It just boggles the mind, the priorities of people in power…
I don’t even know what to say… and Mark I agree with every single thing you said.
I am sorry to depress you all with this image.. but it is an eye opener.. No human and NO CHILD should ever go through this.. animals shouldn’t be treated as such!
It makes you think if charity money does reach the needy! I am sure many organizations do their best.. but how could they have such unhuman sick people run an orphanage?
(I forgot to mention that soldiers found a storage in the orphanage packed with new canned food and clothes)
And as usual, Iraqi officials are claiming this is none other than a conspiracy.
Mark Says:”Look at what America’s politicians do instead: shower privilege, money, access onto the heads of the richest people in the world, as if that is a good way to allocate scarce resources. It just boggles the mind, the priorities of people in power…”
Actually the only thing that boggles my mind is the priorities of some bloggers. You take an article on the exploitation of Iraqi orphans and the corruption of their administrators and you managed to turn it into an anti-American rant.
Well if your comments are rational, perhaps you can explain to me where exactly in the US I could find orphans in a similar state? You mean there are none? Are you sure? Surely then it would follow that either 1. the American way of allocating resources is a hell of a lot better than the Ba’athist and now Islamist system in Iraq or 2. your claims about giving money to the rich are untrue.
Either way I fail to see a rational basis to your comment. Would it be too much to ask you to expand on your logic a little?
Rasha (Saudi Arabia) Says:”It makes you think if charity money does reach the needy! I am sure many organizations do their best.. but how could they have such unhuman sick people run an orphanage?
(I forgot to mention that soldiers found a storage in the orphanage packed with new canned food and clothes)”
Actually there is a small amount of research on this problem in some Middle Eastern societies. It is what an Israeli military historian called “amoral familism”. The only thing that counts is your family and you can and should screw the rest of the world to benefit them. It is not exactly confined to the Middle East either. They may be inhuman but they are not sick, they simply have no obligations to these orphans. As the cliche goes, Me against my cousin, me and my cousin against my neighbour, me and my neighbour against the world.
Kaw Says:”And as usual, Iraqi officials are claiming this is none other than a conspiracy.”
Naturally. The Jews must be to blame because, of course, no Iraqi is.
Guys,
Can you all please stop making this about Arab societies blaming everything on Jewish conspiracies? Who blamed the Jews for the above atrocity?! Why must this rediculous argument find its way to every single Arab problem, even when it’s highly irrelevant and distractive, sometimes welcoming hateful and racist claims from others?
It’s distractive, it’s inaccurate, and most importantly, it’s not funny.
Focus on the issue at hand, please and thank you.
Its interesting reading the comments above reveals an insight on the bloggers. The above picture should have brought out our humanity, the only thing that unites ppl at the end of the day regrdless of their background.
Yet amazingly enough, the article was turned into politics.
Exactly Wafa. And instead of uniting to express our concerns together… we point fingers, choose someone to blame, pick on our differences, which all leads to us failing to focus on the actual story in question. “It’s the Jews, it’s the Arabs, it’s the Arabs always blaming it on the Jews,” come on! How much more tragic can we be?
wafa (Saudi) Says:”The above picture should have brought out our humanity, the only thing that unites ppl at the end of the day regrdless of their background. Yet amazingly enough, the article was turned into politics.”
Well I agree with the sentiment, but it was probably inevitable. After all, no one is going to defend what these people did. No one is going to say the orphans deserved it. No one is going to say this is anything other than a crime against humanity. So what is left to talk about?
Esra’a Says:”And instead of uniting to express our concerns together… we point fingers, choose someone to blame, pick on our differences, which all leads to us failing to focus on the actual story in question. “It’s the Jews, it’s the Arabs, it’s the Arabs always blaming it on the Jews,†come on! How much more tragic can we be?”
Well the first bit of finger pointing was at America. I do not notice anyone condemning that. But what concerns are there here to express that are not political? We do need to find someone to blame because someone needs to be punished. But apart from that personal guilt, there is nothing here to divide us. We are all agreed this is wrong. However I am not agreed that America is the source of all evil in the world and if someone suggests it is, I am inclined to object. How about we all agree to cease finger pointing, especially irrelevant finger pointing at people who had nothing to do with this whatsoever?
The other question, of course, is what is happening elsewhere. We know about this because of the American journalists following the American Army about. What are the orphanages of Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Morocco, or Turkey or even further afield, China like? Makes you think.
al gore said there was no greater opportunity to help the world than to be in the catbird’s seat in Washington. Say what you want about the politicization of the orphans’ plight, the vast resources of governments all aroudn the world could fix somthing like this without blinking, whereas if it is left up to non-governmental organizations, like a local orphanage run for profit, the help typically is stretched too thin to help more than a fraction of the need. Yes, I do believe it important to bring up America’s role in this: America is a hog with the resources of the world, the least it could do is give a little bit back, as a policy. Humanitarian catastrophes like this orphanage can be immediately emeliorated withi a strong governmental response. and if Washington doesn’t do it, history shows it has a high probability of never getting done.
Mark Says:”Say what you want about the politicization of the orphans’ plight, the vast resources of governments all aroudn the world could fix somthing like this without blinking”
And exactly how does giving more money to corrupt officials help anyone except the officials? How does throwing bad money after good help anyone? Iraq needs an honest and efficient government that cares about Iraqis. No amount of money from the West will do that. They have the people, they have the resources, they have the skills. They lack the will.
Mark Says:”whereas if it is left up to non-governmental organizations, like a local orphanage run for profit, the help typically is stretched too thin to help more than a fraction of the need.”
An orphanage run for profit is not an NGO surely? Besides, the chances are pretty good this one was a State-run institution, not a for-profit one. Notice, yet again, that no where in the West are there problems like this. That suggests that the problem is not one of resources or who delivers them.
Mark Says:”Yes, I do believe it important to bring up America’s role in this: America is a hog with the resources of the world”
America does not hog resources. It creates wealth. It shares that wealth.
Mark Says:”the least it could do is give a little bit back, as a policy.”
It does of course. First of all by buying things from the Third World. Look at the massive transfer of billions of dollars from America to the Middle East to pay for crude oil that is worth nothing in the Middle East but that America turns into vast wealth.
Mark Says:”Humanitarian catastrophes like this orphanage can be immediately emeliorated withi a strong governmental response.”
How so? America cannot even maintain law and order in Iraq.
Mark Says:”and if Washington doesn’t do it, history shows it has a high probability of never getting done.”
Which will come as news to Mother Teresa. America is not so vital for the world.
HeiGou is probably right about how strident i’ve been–America does do remarkable things that create not just wealth but good. I suppose I have a rage problem, to think that getting exercised about something will do anything to help the situation. If I keep the focus on that rage, and ways to let the steam out that don’t pollute things further, maybe my little corner of the world will show improvement. It’s probably also true that “America is not so vital for the world”. Same probably for my bloated ego, to think my rantings about what I see needs to be done are at all significant. But isn’t everything that is happening that is not so positive really about the rage of individuals? that feeds into the catastrophes and brutalities of nations?
[…] Mideast Youth - Thinking Ahead » Blog Archive » Orphans left to die! “American soldiers stumbled upon an orphanage in mid Baghdad to find about twenty starving disabled children ages from seven to ten years who were stark naked and tied up to their bed posts, they were lying on the filthy floor.” (tags: iraq war violenceagainstyouth) […]
This is unbelievably depraved.
Mark Says:”If I keep the focus on that rage, and ways to let the steam out that don’t pollute things further, maybe my little corner of the world will show improvement.”
Really? Or perhaps one of the many young impressionable Muslim men who read this site will think that because even you rant about how evil America is, America must be evil and so go off and blow himself up in New York or London. Words have consequences. Every time you irrational and unfairly judge America - every time you give every Third World mass murderer a free pass - you contribute to the problem not the solution. The solution lies in universal values applied equally and fairly. By any rational standard America is not an evil place and it does much good in the world. Remember that genocide begins with demonising the people who will be slaughtered. What do you think you are doing?
Sadly, children are abused in various creative ways all over this world, and we can’t look to one nation of people to stop it. We have to tackle this problem as individuals, as human beings, wherever we may find it. The UN has proven itself ineffectual in circumstances such as this, but I bet that now that these individuals who found them pity their plight, their lives will be just that little bit better. In this case, these individuals happened to be American. Maybe next time, they will be Iraqi.
There are instances here in the States where the abuse of adopted or fostered children goes unchecked despite the fact that procedures are put in place to prevent such things from happened. All it takes is one person who cares, and the suffering can end. You can’t legislate caring, but you can bloody well hope the right person comes along to end the pain.
Please consider going to http://www.give.org to look for a charity to help save as many children as you can. I personally went with Save The Children because their report on Give.org was fairly impressive. We can talk and talk, but in the end we need to do something about this, even if it’s only to save one small village and not the whole world. We need to do what we can if we truly are the people who care.
Thank you very much Teacherlady.. this is exactly the response I wanted out of this blog.. Bringing out the humanity in all of us.
Sinful, another horrific tragedy caused by humanity to humanity.
Well Uncle Sam claims he is only occupying, killing, raping and mudering in Iraq because Uncle S. loves the Iraqi people.
Since Uncle is occuping then yes Uncle S. does get the blame for the deaths, destruction and depravity.
Of course Uncle s. could pay reparations to the Iraqi’s for invading their land and killing hundreds of thousands of people. Remember gang Uncle Sam’s biggest Uncle Tom (sec of state Powell) said Uncle s. is following the policy of You broke it you own. Ie you broke it and now you have to pay reparations, apologize and LEAVE.
BTW I really like this new judicial philosophy “You broke it you own it”. My repuglican neighbor has a nice mercedes car. Can I go and break his mirror and therefore I own the car? I think I could really get to like this type of judical system.
RH
After reading these comments, I must remind the WORLD,that the UNITED STATES, is THE largest donor/SUPPORTER of MONITARY, as well as technical and mechanical assistance to Nation’s around the world. In times of crisis and disaster it is the United States who is the PRINCIPAL supporting force for rescue and hummanitarian aid. 90% of all Missionary activity and programs around the globe that support an array of orphan, disaster, and refugee assistance efforts come from, or are sent out, from the United States. The Compassion and care for other human beings that we as Americans have is no secret. The vast majority of Internatinal adoptions are to American families. The Fact that Nation’s can and should do more is notable. Before people critcize, they should evaluate whether their own involvement or lack their of, contributes to the solution or the cause of these practices. As the adoptive father of an orphan from China; I’m not bragging, just trying to show I feel strongly about these issues and that our family is exercizing compassion and trying to help others with all that we have been blessed with. I believe each of us has a greater responsibility to help end the sufffering than just wishing inefficient and wastefull governments solve everything for us. To move forward in our Hummanity, WE AS INDIVIDUALS MUST TAKE FOOTSTEPS FORWARD ON A PATH COMPASSION! Words are not enough! Thank you for allowing me to have this voice and for reading. I hope you are ALL safe and BLESSED!
That’s because these missionary workers primary objective is to convert these poor people into Christianity. It happened to my family and many neighbours, when we refused, they refused to help us. Some humanitarians you monsters are.
You mean adopting a white or chiense baby? Why not adopt a black African baby? I dont’ see much of that going on in America… could it be because of ra… nm… orphans in China are better cared for than orphans in Africa.
GAWD… how did I guess…
Kind of hard to do shit when the the hindering element in the development of the world is the lone super power and it’s interests that are fueled by your own tax dollars and the politician you elect, hence you yourself is the direct contributor to the mess in the first place.
This is terrible! I can’t believe someone could actually do this! I am still sick to my stomach of the thought someone could be this cruel!
i dilike who ever did this!
mean things happen to poor children
Those poor children…
people… quit pointing fingers… those kids need love, support, a place to call home & a family.
I want to provide that so much.
And Jina… quit judging him. Who cares what the child’s color is! Who cares the color of the skin the child he adopted has or does not have! Every orphan needs love & a family. Have you adopted a black child from Africa? Perhaps, some day he will. If he has adopted one child, there’s nothing stopping him from adopting another. I’m sorry you had a horrible encounter with the wrong missionaries. Those people are in the wrong organization. If I may ask, did you have the internet available to you then? Do you own the computer you are using? Perhaps, they thought you didn’t need aid. Were you rude to them at all? Did you call them monsters, too? Some people ask for help when they don’t need it. They just need guidance.
The country does need a better way of handling orphans. Perhaps, Iraq needs help. The main issue is that these children need care. My mother left me when I needed her the most. But, I realize I should be thankful that I know who she is and that she was in my life. A lot of children can’t say that. I’d like to help fill that void in an orphan’s life. And I would never abandon them. It’s heartbreaking to see that picture. Why are they on the floor? Why aren’t they in the cribs, at least? Why are they naked? The story is the orphanage manager was selling the food & clothes… but all of the clothes? I wish I could be there to hold them. But, I don’t even speak their language… how would I tell them everything will be okay?
I don’t think we know the full story. Let’s not jump to conclusions. At least, those kids are in a building. The building has windows, from what I can see. It looks dark outside. It’s dark outside & the kids are asleep. So, there’s possibly a routine, which is good for young children. There are cribs. There are chairs. The chairs are stacked & not tossed about. There appears to be a shelf of some sort. It’s not as if these children have absolutely nothing. This floor looks, as thought, it has scuff-type marks or something. It could have been piles of poo. It doesn’t look it, though. The room looks kept up, from what I can tell. There is light… whether from the room’s electricity or from the soldiers, I don’t know. The floor looks brighter closer to the camera, getting darker towards the cribs and walls. Has anyone else noticed these things?
The story is they are tied to the bed posts. Perhaps, it was safer. If there is shooting or something in the area (not like shooting doesn’t happen in Baghdad), then you want the kids to remain low to the ground and out of the view from someone looking at the window…to be safe. Correct? That is, if there is not a better place to retreat. Tying them to the bed posts will ensure they stay down. These are 7-10 year olds - not the best of listeners. I have worked with many. I’m only offering another suggestion. This could be just cruelty. If so, why not just kill the kids? Do we know how long the packaged food and clothing had been in the facility? Perhaps, the orphanage manager had to sell the items. We were told the food & clothing were sold, but we aren’t told why.
After researching the date of this post, I found these articles: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jun2007/iraq-j20.shtml
There may have been an assault close to the time this picture was taken. As I said, tying the kids to the beds may have been a forceful measure in keeping them safe. Wouldn’t you, if you had to? If you felt that’s what you had to do? But… I’m only giving another possibility as to what might have happened. Assaults are not to be taken lightly… if the kids don’t want to cooperate or maybe be freaking out, you do what you have to do, as the adult to protect the child. You can’t shield all of them with your body (not implying the orphanage manager was, though). I know what I’m talking about - as I said, I used to work with a lot of kids. When a fire drill occurs, the kids go crazy on you. It’s your job to keep them in line & safe. I can’t imagine dealing with bombings and assaults.
Let’s not make this about politics. Politics turns issues into pissing matches. Then, people forget about the real issue.
Kudos to TeacherLady and HeiGou. I admire both of you. I wish I knew more people like you personally.
American Bill is right. America does provide a lot of aid. However, there are problems that arise when money or items are donated and they are not received by the persons who are supposed to receive them. How do we know that the money, food, medical supplies & clothing we donate is actually reaching starving or ill
people? If that weren’t an issue, I believe more aid would be donated on a personal level.
Mark, I would not be so quick to believe anything Al Gore says. But, I admire you - for admitting to a rage problem. I know quite a few people with anger issues who are too weak or too proud to admit it. Kudos to you, too.
Rasha, what else do you know about this whole issue? How is the situation now? This article was dated June 20, 2007. Surely, the conditions have improved, now that more people are aware. What can you tell us?
America invaded Iraq. Invaded on the basis of brazen lies. Now that Iraq infrastructure and society has been destroyed by this invasion and occupation.
America refuses to leave even when the local gov says please go. The occupation of Iraq has resulted in the death of some 500K to 1 million innocent civillians.
Hey all those US defenders I ask a simple question about their Uncle Sam.
Why not pay reparations and leave? The WMD business was all lies anyway..
I’d be happy to have my country leave immediately. I never wanted the war anyway. However, I am not paying one cent of “reparations.” The war itself was already a colossal waste of money and thanks to Bush’s fiscal policy we are in no condition to pay anything. If you want money, sue Haliburton and Exxon…they made out like bandits at the cost of others lives. They should foot the bill, not the many American taxpayers who did not support military action and who cannot withold tax dollars without going to jail. Also, since Bush has shifted the tax burden onto the poor and middle class, the actual supporters and profiteers of the war (the elite)will only be paying a small portion of any compensation they would owe(should the government pay any reparations itself).
Well your Uncle Sam invaded Iraq like Nazi germany invaded poland and Russia. The Germans had to pay reparations regardless whether they wanted to or not.
According to the US judges at Nuremburg the waging of aggressive war is the highest war crime and all other war crimes are subsumed under it. The US invasion of Iraq does go into the category of waging aggressive war. Madmax Reparations are due whther you personally like it or not.
In fact MadMax withdrawl and paying reparations may still save your criminal Bush regime some money. It will cap your loss of billions monthly and it will stop monthly death of US army occupiers.
Germany paid reparations to the countries and people it occupied and killed. But even after paying reparations Germany is doing very well economically. I suggest you people in US should try reparations and aplogies. It may be very good for you.
RH
fix sp
Germany paid reparations to the countries and people it occupied and killed. But even after paying reparations Germany is doing very well economically. I suggest you people in US should try reparations and apologies. It may be very good for you.
RH,
Who the hell are you to judge what is good for me and what I should do? Your arrogance and sense of entitlement are both astounding. Cut the self-righteous BS. Honestly, to think you have any right to pass judgement on anyone else…are you a perfect person? Your linked website is simply a collection of nutty conpsiracy theories backed by fake evidence. “whatreallyhappened” huh? Please… Why should I trust anything you say? Its obvious that your only goal is to sensationalize global conflicts and create division among humankind. Yellow journalism causes wars, and in that sense your website are no different from other more mainstream networks.
By robbing people for a crime they did not commit your are only going to foster more resentment and increase tension. Does the word “collective punishment” ring a bell? The Punishment does not have to be physical for this statement to be valid. Don’t blame people for shit they did not committ. This will lead only to more conflict in the future. In fact, I would say that many problems in both the ME and the world are due to people blaming each other blindly in the hopes they the opposing side will give them what they want once they realize “the truth.” Talk about magical thinking!
I do not doubt leaving would save money. Read my post more carefully next time. Plus, just because your a victim does not mean your entitled to money or compensation. Justice is not always synonomous with cash. Its the victimhood mentality that keeps people in a perpetual state of self-pity in which they refuse to actively make their lives better. Instead, they blame all their problems on others and expect these others to make the changes for them. Just like I stated before regarding the blame game.
Your whole worldview actually breeds conflict rather than stopping it.
Well, at least I can say we agree on leaving Iraq. Thats one good thing. Maybe we will understand each others views more in the future. If your an American and want to pay reparations personally, go ahead.
Hi Madmax
when germany had to pay reparations for invading and occupying small countries the germans could’nt afford it and no one worried about victimhood..
“Your arrogance and sense of entitlement are both astounding. Cut the self-righteous BS. Honestly, to think you have any right to pass judgement on anyone else”
It is only until the US waging of aggressive war has a cost will the Bush regime and the republican rightwing reprobates (RRR) will stop their crazy aggressive war.
If it worked for the Nazi’s and German when they were waging aggressive war I am sure it will work on the USgov.
By accepting the Bush regime as America’s legal government you are definitely liable for all the crimes the Bush regime committs. Even if you did’nt vote for them. You the US taxpayer is on the line for all the money the bush regimes has borrowed.
Reparations to Iraq is just a small part of the bill dumped on America by the Bush Regime. Remember “if you broke it you own it!”. So your bush regime broke it and now has to leave the store and pay for damages. Or in more simpler terms your 10 year old son broke your neighbors windows and now you have to pay.
Retreat and Reparations and apology is what’s called for.
RH
RH
“By accepting the Bush regime as America’s legal government you are definitely liable for all the crimes the Bush regime committs. Even if you did’nt vote for them. You the US taxpayer is on the line for all the money the bush regimes has borrowed.”
Why do you assume so much?
I can’t stop the government for taxing my paycheck. Do you think I have a choice? With the logic you use, I should ascribe all the criminal actions of arab governments onto the arab people (I do not advocate this method of thinking, which is also known as racism). After all, they pay taxes. All Iraqis were responsible for Saddam Hussein’s actions, which threatened us, so we had to make war with them. Sound familiar? To adopt your thinking would be to justify the war in Iraq… Basically, your thought process is akin to racist and/or nationalistic sentiment. When have those two worldviews ever successfully solved global issues?
You have not changed your argument at all from the last post…I think you are intentionally ignoring what I am posting. Also, you keep making references to Germany…get over it. I would not have wanted Germany to pay anyone reparations. I would have been content with having Nazi officials executed or imprisoned. Should the current nation of Germany now compensate their turkish minority for any hate crimes made by separatists? No. The government and the majority of tax-payers should not foot the burdern for the actions of a few.
Also, you seem to rely on the past a lot. The fact of the matter is, whats done is done. If we keep dwelling on the past we are doomed to repeat it. What heppened to Germany was not entirely fair, but that does not mean we should do it again. We’ll have to agree to disagree. An apology and retreat is good enough. A parent pays for the child because he has the power to control the kidand is responsible for his upbringing. More importantly, the kid is a dependent and who stands to inherit the parent’s money. Taking the dad’s money is taking the kid’s money. The parent can also choose to take the kid to the store or not. I can’t choose to take Bush to Iraq or not nor do is he a dependent of me. He also will inherit nothing from me upon my death. Basically, I don’t have the power to stop the actions of the Bush Administration. The use of metaphors comparing indvidual actions to national actions are based off the assumption that all people in a country think and act as one - this is surely not true.
Are you German by any chance?
Madmax and RH,
Again, this is turning into politics, debates & pissing matches.
The truth is that neither one of you are personally responsible for any of the crap that is going down in Iraq… at least, we should hope not.
Perhaps, you could try to not be so angry at each other.
Retreat and apology are not enough. Were you not taught if you break something, to either fix it or replace it? Money alone will not fix anything. “I’m sorry I blew up your house & killed your family members. Here’s $1000. Have a good one!”
You need manpower & resources. Where will they come from? I think we can turn the rebuilding of Iraq into a community service project for those who would like to help… perhaps those who opposed the war anyways… for those who wish to show they want to build up and not destroy. It would give the anti-war protesters something to do besides…well…protest. Perhaps.. throw in some inmates doing life for a chance to turn his/her life around.
Madmax is right… whether you are for or against the war, really… none of the regular people had much say-so in it.
But, if you compare this war with all of the other wars our country has been in, the casualty list is lower. War is not pleasant; it was never meant to be. On a more positive note, war does promote the creation of new lives. Does it not?
Sorry if I sound absolutely ridiculous. Typically I’m pessimistic.
Before you think that this war is bloodthirsty or aggressive… realize the type of people our volunteer men and women are fighting. These people are cowards, burying explosives in the ground so that vehicles will drive over them & explode, maiming or killing everyone inside. Those people have families, too. These people our troops are fighting cut off other people’s heads and air it on the Internet. What kind of a sick bastard does one have to be to do that? They are dangerous and hiding behind religion. You can’t fight them with kind words and a passive war. That’s absurd. That’s what you were thinking, right? If you’re against an aggressive war, you want a nice, passive conflict. Ha ha ha. That’s funny.
I have spoken with a few soldiers. They have told me that Obama actually wants to remove the troops & then nuke the whole area. If that’s true, then what Bush is doing is not nearly as evil.
“They have told me that Obama actually wants to remove the troops & then nuke the whole area. If that’s true, then what Bush is doing is not nearly as evil.”
Really? Another reason for me not to vote for him. However, McCain is flat out dangerous as well.
“That’s what you were thinking, right? If you’re against an aggressive war, you want a nice, passive conflict. Ha ha ha. That’s funny.”
I’d rather not have any conflict. Especially since we were already in a “war on terror.” Our troops are read to thin. Saddam would not have done anything to us. He was preoccupied with the preservation of his power, which was on the wane. From a counter-terrorism standpoint, he stood as a counter-weight to radical islamists, who he believed were a threat to his power. There was no good reason why America should waste time, money and human lives to dethrone him. A lot died under Hussein, but at least Iraq had order. Now people are dying and there is chaos. Your right though, passive conflict does not work…
By the way, who are “these people?” If your referring to terrorists, a lot of them came to Iraq from foreign countries for the purpose of fighting America. They were not there before the war. If the goal is to defeat them, we need a competent intelligence agency and strong ties with local people. Dealing with terrorism requires finesse and cunning, not brute force.
Lastly, Why should we foot the cost for building Iraq? Part of the reason many Americans are anti-war is because of the economic stress it places on our country. Pro-war individuals should be responsible for rebuilding the country with their own money. America has enough problems on its own. We should be taking care of those first. Kepp in mind, I am not some hippie who protests anything the government does. I am not a pacifist. But, I do not believe in going to war when it is not necesary and will not solve anything.
I agree with many of the other commenters that this horrible story shouldn’t be turned into a game of bashing each other’s countries. However, I do think a turn to politics is part of the natural wave of discussion on this topic, because we often look to our political leaders to solve problems.
Other commenters have already noted that the US, privately through charities, gives more aid to the rest of the world than any other country. Publicly, while the US does give billions every year in CIVIL aid - the US is not the leader in foreign aid per capita. That award goes to the Netherlands.
Regardless, another commenter noted that American charities refuse to help people who won’t convert to Christianity. This is simply not true - obviously there are Christian based charities that come from the US, but there are also plently of charities that come out of the US that have nothing to do with religion. Here are a few examples: http://www.freerice.com/, http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm, http://www.one.org/, http://www.heifer.org/ As always, it’s up to the donor where they choose to give their money - if someone chooses to give to a Christian charity that promotes Christianity, that is no different than a Muslim giving to an Islamic charity that promotes Islam. Honestly, religion should not have even become a part of this discussion because I’m pretty sure all the major religions promote ideals and principles of which this orphanage example is a HUGE violation.
I hope this post doesn’t look like an advertisement for charitable donations, because that’s not my intention. I just want to clear up what seems to be a general lack of understanding of how much the US (and its citizens) actually do do that is good - because most of us do realize that we should help others in this world, so please stop portraying all of us as selfish jerks. And saving the world via funding because we “hog the world’s resources” should not be a job that sits alone with the US. Other countries (ex: Saudi) should also be sharing their wealth of resources with the world’s poor.
Correct, you are, Jessica.
Well let me see. US gov invades small country undergoing more than 10 years of sanctions. The invasion is done on the basis of brazen lies and pretexts.
The results of the war is more than 1 million Iraqi dead billions of infrastructure damage and destruction of civil society. According to a US judge the waging of an illegal war of aggression is the primary cause of all other war crimes.
After so much killing and destruction the posters claim the fault is of Islam and Iraq and Arabs… My friends years of fox propaganda has clouded your minds. The fault is not with Isla or Iraqis or Arabs etc. The fault lies with the USgov along with its fanatical chosen media.
Even if the us posters cling to various fig leafs dumped by annonymous usgov sources the world is not stupid. The world knows and all this namby phamby whining by the various us/israel based posters attempts to becloud the issue is not working.
R is the magic word. Retreat, Renounce war and pay Reparations is what is required. Instead of sending billions to Israel can the US take this money and use it to pay reparations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
rh
RH
“My friends years of fox propaganda has clouded your minds. The fault is not with Isla or Iraqis or Arabs etc. The fault lies with the USgov along with its fanatical chosen media.”
No, years of reading websites like “whatreallyhappened” have clouded your mind. So there.
Who says everyone in America watches Fox anyway? I don’t watch any news reports on tv.
“Even if the us posters cling to various fig leafs dumped by annonymous usgov sources the world is not stupid. The world knows and all this namby phamby whining by the various us/israel based posters attempts to becloud the issue is not working.”
Your attempting to becloud the issue by pitting people against each other and blaming the innocent. How about America suspended all foreign aid to anyone and spend that money domestically? We have poor people who need help too. Also, your the one whining for compensation. Why don’t you pay?
Good game. Lets play again tommorow. I think we can keep this going for a long time. We’ll just keep repeating what we have already said louder and louder until someone gives in. Because that works.
I know this topic is old, but is there anything that can be done about the orphans immediately? I am starting to see teacher lady’s point from a while back.
Um, because she/he is not the one who spent billions to bomb a country to oblivion.
I find it alarming Madmax that you don’t think America is responsible for the deplorable way it has handled Iraq. If you cause a problem; you solve it. You don’t attack someone’s house and then expect them to pay in order to fix it. You would be expected to pay for the damage you personally caused. The same applies right now to the U.S government.
Your logic seems to be this:
“Billions was spent in the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, where our military pretty much blew lots of things up. But hey you know what we should just stop aiding people because um, we got poor folks to help anyways. So after we bombed everything, destroyed families and homes, we’re just gonna go and help our own peeps. They need us. But the people we traumatized, terrorized and killed over the past years? Well they can just handle their own problems. Our billions was here to destroy, not to invest in the country’s re-construction!”
That is basically what you are implying. Correct me if I’m wrong. You can’t expect any other country to pay for what your government was largely responsible for. RH is “whining” for valid reasons.
Certainly not the right thing to suggest AFTER America launched severe wars and developed a huge military presence. If you had discussed this before America got involved in Iran-Iraq war, Afghanistan, Iraq again, you might have had an argument. Right now everyone is rightly expecting your government to wisen up and pay towards constructing what it has destroyed, rather than further deconstruction and military facilities.
And FYI, America gets involved to preserve its own interests. Not to sincerely “help.” Very few people here actually rely on America for progress, including the current Iraqi leadership. That doesn’t mean however that America can just walk out of the mess it has created; we expect it to fix it and then leave us alone to fix our own problems!
You are wrong. I do not mind compensating when the appropriate people are held responsible. I can’t control the fact that Bush cheated in 2000. He literally had his brother disenfranchise voters in Florida so Gore would lose the state. If you want money, get it from the right source: Bush/Cheney and their cronies. Not from U.S. taxpayers. Using pseudo-Reaganomics (giving rich people money in thehopes that it passes down), Bush’s tax cut plan has shifted the tax burden onto people who can’t pay as much. Why are the American middle class and lower class forced to cover for the actions of a small wealthy elite. Asking RH to pay is the same as asking any other party who is not responsible to pay - which is what he is doing the majority of Americans who were and are against the war.
As you may know U.S. Democracy is not the finest form of citizen government.
Are you responsible in all cases for the actions of the government of Bahrain?
Bush cheated his way to power and made decisions that destroyed America and Iraq simultaneously. Hold him accountable. Hang him in the hague. I’m sick of having to take shit for him.
I find it alarming that you hold me accountable for events outside of my control. Thats the logic that gets people to beleive that all Iranians are hostile and support terrorist actions because their government does and they pay taxes to it and vote in it.
I hope that clears some things up. If not, I’ll try later.
“Certainly not the right thing to suggest AFTER America launched severe wars and developed a huge military presence. If you had discussed this before America got involved in Iran-Iraq war, Afghanistan, Iraq again, you might have had an argument.”
More stuff outside of my control. Was not even born. Your missing the point I made about holding the correct people responsible. Also you make the incorrect assumption that I want U.S. troops in the middle east. You also have this blind notion that all Americans want their governmet to “help” others. The fact that you even think I thought the Iraq war would help anyone is also false.
“And FYI, America gets involved to preserve its own interests.” The interests of the individuals in power, not the public.
Madmax, you are not reading my comments.
I don’t see why you are making this about “all Americans” when I specifically mentioned your government, as well as some of your opinions, which you expressed here.
Again, this is why I said the U.S government! I don’t want to have to bold my words just to make a statement clearer. Please read what I really said, and not what you think I said:
Basically making your entire comment irrelevant and incorrect, as instead of refuting the argument, you accused me of making generalizations that I did not make.
Well gang I certainly agree that US foriegn aid be suspended 100% till the US gov finishes paying its Multi billion dollar debt. I for one do not understand the fedgov borrowing money paying the interest and then giving the money to various favorites of fedgov.
I think immediately after the Retreat, Repent and Reparations cycle all foriegn aidespecially including billions to Israel and Egypt be immediately cancelled.
I also like the idea of bring the Bush regime on trial. If the Bush regime can be shown as criminal theives then the debt incurred by them can be deleted. The various banksters who advanced debt to the Fedgov can go whistling dixie.
If the Bush regime can be sent to the hague then I think we just need to apologize and leave Iraq.
rh
rh
“If the Bush regime can be sent to the hague then I think we just need to apologize and leave Iraq”
With utmost pleasure!
Esra’a
I am attacking the “your government” idea on the grounds that you are making it “my government.” I do not see where the misunderstanding is coming from. It is not my government in reality. That is my point. When the U.S. government pays, common people foot the bill. Thats the core of the problem. Tax laws are very regressive in my country and any spending or paying done by the government ends up hurting those who are worst off. Any obligation placed on the U.S. government will be passed from rulers to the ruled. Those actually responsible will squeeze their way out of it by increasing income taxes, decreasing taxes on uneared income, decreasing taxes on corporate profits, and creating more loopholes in the tax code. If we taxed Bush cronies to pay reparations that is fine! Punish those who deserve to be punished. I don’t want reparations because they cost WILL be passed to those with no part in it and who did not profit from it. If you engineer a method that collects from the war profiteers that would be excellent.
If I am still not making sense then I’ll keep trying.
“Your government” doesn’t mean it is one that you agree with, or one that represents you. But unfortunately it is the reality of the situation. It is under this government’s rules and laws that you would have to function. In a perfect world the government itself would be the one responsible to pay for the damages it caused without any citizen having to pay expenses. This would be fair as the Bush administration never asked anyone or called for a democratic vote to go to war, that’s why I think America is not a real democracy most of the time, it is just a country with certain democratic values like free speech.
But imagine Iraq had bombed America and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent individuals, dismantled homes, left millions homeless and terrorized, etc, all in the name of politics. I bet a lot of Americans would be asking the Iraqi government to pay back for everything it has destroyed. That would be expected and logical, and the only way it can conclude in peace, rather than the people destroyed forming a military and attacking back.
“This would be fair as the Bush administration never asked anyone or called for a democratic vote to go to war, that’s why I think America is not a real democracy most of the time, it is just a country with certain democratic values like free speech.”
My sentiments exactly. Democracy relies on a strong middle class, and with the wealth of Americans becoming more and more concentrated with each passing decade, it seems that our democracy is now becoming democratic in name only.
“But imagine Iraq had bombed America and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent individuals, dismantled homes, left millions homeless and terrorized, etc, all in the name of politics. I bet a lot of Americans would be asking the Iraqi government to pay back for everything it has destroyed.”
What I would want in that situation is not what is right. We have to strive to do what is right. I have and will no doubt continue to face situations where what is right might be against my interest. But this is not one of them. Looting the wallets of hard working people builds resentment, which is bad in the long run. Don’t give xenophobes more ammo.
“It is under this government’s rules and laws that you would have to function. In a perfect world the government itself would be the one responsible to pay for the damages it caused without any citizen having to pay expenses.”
I feel that the first part is the unjust reality that I want to combat. If I am to live in an undemocratic manner at least the government could have the decency to tell us we have no control (fat chance). Whether or not reparations do get paid, Americans with have to deal with it. But I am arguing that it is wrong to do so unless you count the case described in the second sentence. Basically, we are not arguing against each other. The only difference is that you want reparations to occur even if the ideal condition is not met whereas I do not want any change of cash unless the ideal condition can be guranteed. Sound right?
However, given the way national leaders operate, the common people will get shafted and most likely America will pay some form of reparations. Bush cronies will find ways around paying any of this debt and the Iraqi government who recieves it will embezzle most of it (how they will they be paid out is another question for another thread). Is the new government of Iraq accountable to the people? Because governments everywhere generally are not.
Sorry for the excessive cynicism. But in this day and age, who can truly say they are completely optimistic about the future.