When you burn our Holy book, do you expect our respect?
There is nothing more hypocritical than a violent action receiving a violent and hateful reaction. Consider this for example, a video where people find it “fun” to shoot at the Koran thinking it is responsible for the crimes taking place under the supposed banner of “Islam.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzN7IxdhrA[/youtube]
I always wonder why the mainstream Western media is generally against our reactions (the non-violent kind.)
Free speech is quite possibly one of the most misunderstood concepts ever. The “it’s free speech, so shut up” argument is a particular pet peeve of mine. It means the government can’t make laws forbidding people to say something. It does not mean that private citizens cannot be upset about what someone said or find the need to challenge it. If “freedom” only applies to who spoke first, it’s pretty meaningless.
Was the threat of burning our holy book in Copenhagen not an overreaction? You can protest, question or critique a religion without going to the extent of burning its sacred book. That action lends itself to another facet of the “freedom of speech” clause that people like to pull out so often, which is that you have freedom to speak your mind but what you don’t have is the right to incite a riot or create an environment that can lead to harm or endanger the lives of others.
The difference between burning a book and writing an essay questioning the validity of a religion is the opportunity for discussion, enlightenment and education. If someone wrote an essay criticizing Islam in general, that opens the door for us to educate them about facets of the faith they may not understand. It provides for viable discussion. Burning a Holy book is an act that sends a different message altogether. There’s a fine line between freedom of speech and speech that can incite harm to others. Do people have the right to criticize religion or political beliefs? Surely they do. But do they have the right to incite violence while doing so? No.
Islam, like Christianity, has its more extreme factions.
You need only review the shootings at abortion clinics in the United States to know this. Look at Pat Robertson. He praises the death of people as punishment from God. He has praised the murder of the abortion clinic doctors. Is that not extreme? Is that terribly far away from being related to a faction of Islam that calls for the death of those who debase their beliefs? Islam has millions of followers all over the world. Millions and millions. Is it safe to say that if Muslims were truly a blood-thirsty crazed bunch of lunatics that we’d see a whole hell of a lot more violence? These types of reactions gives Muslims a free reign to go nuts. You think these ‘Muslim’ protests are disgusting and unnecessary, fine, so does most of the Muslim population, but keep our faith out of this. It is not responsible for people’s stupidity and their utter lack of openness and consideration.
Join the Conversation
Great post Esra’a!
“Islam, like Christianity, has its more extreme factions.”
Such as…? What exactly is your definition of a Christian extremist?
“He has praised the murder of the abortion clinic doctors.”
That’s news to me. Maybe you can post a link?
“He praises the death of people as punishment from God.”
Way to completely misinterpret what he said.
If you think people like Pat Robertson whose worst offense is what they say are on the same level of extremism to people like the OBL or Zarquawi who actually follow through and use violence than I’m not going to argue with you. The fact is, if you view Pat Robertson an extremist because of what he believes and says than wouldn’t you have to also label the majority of Muslims as extremists too? Or do you measure extremism differently when it comes to Muslims and Christians?
“You need only review the shootings at abortion clinics in the United States to know this.”
Sure. Let’s do this, you name an atrocity with citation and death toll and then I’ll name an atrocity with citation and death toll, and we’ll see who can go the longest.
“Koran thinking it is responsible for the crimes taking place under the supposed banner of “Islam.—
Ok, so when Muslims quote from the Koran and Hadiths whilst sawing someones head off they’re not really inspired or influenced. I wonder how well that would go over the next time someone in the US uses a gun to solve their problems, will liberals accept that violent video games aren’t really a contributing factor? Or do you think that non Muslims in Africa and Asia never suffer injustices and hardship and Muslims are the only ones suffering from poverty (If you don’t hold this view, than kindly give me an example of the last time a Vietnamese citizen tried to blow himself up on American or French soil, all the while chanting Buddhist scripture)?
Pat Roberston preaching death is new to you? He also called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez. He also blamed the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists, the gays and the lesbians for 9/11. As for Christian extremism, it exists all over. Ever heard of Christians killing Muslims in Nigeria? Ever heard of Christians killing Jews and Muslims brutally during the Crusades? Ever heard of Christian missionaries in the Middle East insisting that our religion (Islam) is bullshit while they run around preaching that Jesus is our savior, how very respectful is that? Muslims abroad aren’t the only ones shoving their religion down other people’s throats. We have our fair share of that too in Arab countries.
I know you really, really want to turn this into “which religion is more extremist,” but the fact remains that there are extremist factors in every single religion of this planet regardless of what the media chooses to focus on. This type of hatred and violence should always be condemned, never justified. Justifying it only welcomes more of it.
Personally, I don’t see the relevance of this. You assume that my focus is only Muslims when it comes to human rights.
Don’t you even read this blog? We just started a Muslim network for Baha’i rights, we have a whole network for Jewish and Kurdish rights, we have a whole network for migrant rights (non-Arabs and non-Muslims) and you claim that we don’t believe that non Muslims should have rights or that we deny them suffering from any injustices in our region?
Clearly, you are mistaken in this uninformed assumption. We do care. And we do take action against the injustices within our societies. We target all forms of discrimination and try to eliminate it. Can you tell me what you are doing in this field, so that maybe I can see that you know how it feels like to be an activist in a society that goes against everything you stand for?
RELIGIONS don’t suffer from poverty.
PEOPLE do.
RELIGIONS don’t commit crimes.
PEOPLE do.
We are rallying AS people for other PEOPLE, no matter what their belief systems are. Not to enforce religious ideologies, not for the sake of any existing religion, but for the sake of human rights. Please tell me why I shouldn’t be angered when an American or British citzen calls for the death of Muslims, or highly disrespects an entire religion or the people who practice it simply as a result of misrepresentations within the media? Please tell me why I shouldn’t be angered when Muslims are blamed for being careless about human rights when some of the most hard working activists in the Middle East happen to be Muslims, putting their lives, families, and reputation at great risk for the sake of fellow humans who don’t even share their faith. Tell me why any of our networks shouldn’t exist simply because Muslims lead them, shall I delete them all to help you imagine a world where Muslims are vultrues trying to eat their brethren up?
Really, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists. So, the very few groups who are, got the Koran right, and the rest of us, got the Koran and the Prophet’s teachings wrong? Okay, that makes total sense.
How about Fred Phelps? Here’s the best example of Christian extremism… to the point of being antithetical to its real message: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html
Great Esra’a
Esra’a, I would lilke to apologize for some of the comments that are being made against Islam. Its easy for many christians to forget about our past, which was filled with more violence against fellow christians than any other group. Don’t let their responses discourage you. You are doing a GREAT work.
May you meet christians who are truly following what they have been taught: To love their neighbors as themselves.
lol man.. Katz_Killer
i just wanna tell you that Hitler wasn’t a Nazi, he was Christian, a catholic pagan sucka who was raised to hate Jews cuz “they killed Jesus”.
wake up fella, US is a so-called christian nation and its committed more atrocities that any other nation. man, let’s imagine the world without that LIE called christanity.
i’d go out now and piss on the bible, but it’s meaningless, cuz its a man’s book. there’s no “FUN” about it.
The attacks on the Koran are a form of free speech, just like Muslim attacks on the British Queen, or on Sir Salman, for that matter. A few years ago some Palestinians, holed up in a Christian church in Bethlehem during a siege, started using the pages of the Christian Bible they found as toilet paper.
It’s a reaction, to be sure, but an expected reaction. Nobody should be shocked by it; in fact, as time goes by and such attacks increase, it would be wiser to become inured to them. It’s just a book, after all.
Finnpundit, you simply miss the point. “It’s just a book, after all.” No, it is our sacred book. Our valuable book. Our highly looked upon and respected book which we can’t even place on dirt let alone watch people piss or shoot at it.
To you, it’s just a book.
For us, it’s an identity, a definition, a way of life. When you burn it, you are burning everything that we stand for in this life. The very LEAST you could do is respect those who follow the Koran and its preachings, which you can do without believing in the religion at all.
When people shout or preach violent things, without realizing the consequences, they are not being clever. When the BNP in Britain shout “death to Muslims” or “down with Islam,” they are highlighting their own violence and stupidity. The moment that happens, we should realize that it is an abuse of a right. Not an advantage. I realize that it’s a RIGHT, but not the ideal practice of it, hence the similarly violent reactions in return.
As for the video above, of course it’s an expected reaction – stupidity only invites further stupidity. Violent and retarded reactions should be condemned as much as we condemn violent and retarded protests. They aren’t different. They spark the same crimes by the same narrow minded people, and highlight two extremes that don’t welcome or appreciate dialogue from either sides. In this moment, humanity itself becomes the victim. We need to learn how to stop treating each other like competing tribes and animals.
katz_killer must live in a really really deep hole.
“For us, it’s an identity, a definition, a way of life. When you burn it, you are burning everything that we stand for in this life.”
If that is true, then Islam is pretty weak, isn’t it? Faith is supposed to transcend material corporeality. If Islam can be attacked by attacking a physical object, then Islam will always be very vulnerable.
When the Taliban destroyed the giant statues of Buddha, the first thing the Dalai Lama said was that the statues did not matter. Buddhism, according to Buddhists, transcends all materialism.
We need to learn how to stop treating each other like competing tribes and animals.
But we are competing tribes and animals. The clash of civilizations is a very real thing. Most likely, we are heading towards more war in this century, not less. And war does have its useful side: it eradicates systems of thought from people’s minds that are inherently weak and inefficient.
The “dialogue of civilizations” is an alternative, but only if all freedom of speech is permitted, however vile and upsetting. There is no dialogue if speech is curtailed.
Honestly, Esra’a, upsetting speech is only highlighted when attention is drawn to it. For true dialogue to succeed, you need to ignore speech that upsets you and concentrate on areas where people have common interests (i.e. not common values), such a common business interests.
That’s why globalized corporate businesses are so important to world peace. You’ll never find a corporation actively supporting the burning of holy books!
Esra’a, don’t forget the Christian Phalangists in Lebanon.
No, this is a sign of passion and respect, not vulnerability. If you can sit and watch your own temples, worship centers or holy books be destroyed, that, in my opinion, is weakness. You should always be willing to stand up for your faith. Therefore what you say is not a statement or a fact; it’s merely a matter of personal opinion where people differ.
I disagree entirely. For the sake of education, I think it’s best to target speech that upsets us especially if it promotes hatred and violence against our brethren. Speech against migrant workers in my country really disturbs me, we ignored it for decades and you know what happened as a result of that? Slavery. This is what happens when you ignore speech that upsets you instead of refuting it, fighting against it, and standing up for who you are and what you represent… fearlessly and constantly.
Finnpundit,
Esra’a has already articulate quite nicely what I was about to say:
“we should realize that it is an abuse of a right. Not an advantage. I realize that it’s a RIGHT, but not the ideal practice of it, hence the similarly violent reactions in return.”
When people, any people, use free speech and expression to incite hatred and violence, it should be condemned. Burning our holy book isn’t constructive, it plays into the hands of Muslim extremists and makes their poinst seem more valid. The cycle keeps growing, feeding on itself and creating more polarization.
Esra’a: “He also blamed the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists, the gays and the lesbians for 9/11.”
You are very duplicitous. The way you have phrased this, completely ignoring the qualifier I stated, and the context of my point is pathetic. “Blaming” a group of people for an act s not the same as “praising” anyone’s death.
I’m still waiting for those links where Pat Robertson “praised” abortion clinic attacks.
“As for Christian extremism, it exists all over.”
I’m sure you can back this up with surveys, right?
“So, the very few groups who are, got the Koran right, and the rest of us, got the Koran and the Prophet’s teachings wrong? Okay, that makes total sense.”
“Ever heard of Christians killing Muslims in Nigeria?”
Cherry-picking one group (That were attacked by Muslims first during the cartoon fiasco, no less) is a far cry from definitive substantiation for your little “worldwide Christian fundamentalist” myth, but nice try. Got anything else?
“Usman Dan Fodio’s jihad, or religious war, 1804–1810, ended with the establishment of the Sokoto sultanate. This Islamic theocratic empire extended from what is now extreme northwest Nigeria in a broad swath southeast into contemporary northwest Cameroon. Armed forces of the emirate of Zazzau, based in present-day Zaria in north-central Kaduna State, continued intermittent warfare and slave raiding in the southern half of contemporary Kaduna State, an area populated by some 15 Middle Belt minority ethnic groups. The emir claimed suzerainty over this area.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria-1.htm
“Ever heard of Christians killing Jews and Muslims brutally during the Crusades?”
Unlike Muslim aggression, the Crusades were never justified on the basis of New Testament teaching.
The greatest crime during the Crusades was the sacking of Jerusalem, in which 30,000 people were massacred. That number has been dwarfed by hundreds of years of violent Islamic expansion, starting under your Prophet when he wiped out two Jewish tribes (among other things he did).
“Personally, I don’t see the relevance of this. You assume that my focus is only Muslims when it comes to human rights.”
Mrs. Thickhead, the relevance was for you to give me examples of non Muslims (Buddhists, Hindus, Catholics, Bahai’s, Zoroastrians, etc) that base their violence against others from their scripture.l
katz, ever heard of the Lord’s Resistance Army based in Uganda? They are an extremist Christian group headed by Joseph Kony, fighting for the imposition of Biblical Law in the country.
And let’s not forget the Christian Phalangists in Lebanon responsible for Sabra and Shatila.
Is it not the problem that many Muslims see themselves as threatened and weak in respect to “the West”? (For whatever reasons.)
When two parties are insulting each other, it is very significant if there is a difference in power. The stronger can ignore a much higher intensity of attacks, and the weaker has a natural tendency to overly defensive reactions.
In this sense: The strength of the extremists is their weakness – and the weakness of “the West” is it’s strength.
Esra’a:
No, this is a sign of passion and respect, not vulnerability. If you can sit and watch your own temples, worship centers or holy books be destroyed, that, in my opinion, is weakness.
Destroying other people’s property and lives is a crime, and will elicit a reaction. However, let’s keep in mind that this guy who shot up the Koran probably bought that Koran. It was his property, and he can do with it as he pleases.
Furthermore, passion is a problem, not a virtue. It is better to be dispassionate in your criticisms, no matter how angry you might be.
Therefore what you say is not a statement or a fact; it’s merely a matter of personal opinion where people differ.
All statements and facts are matters of personal opinion.
I think it’s best to target speech that upsets us especially if it promotes hatred and violence against our brethren.
Well, yes, one can and should be critical of speech, as it can do a lot of damage. But to ban it outright is more problematic. That’s why I think European welfare states made a big mistake in banning the denial of the Holocaust, as it can only lead to more curtailment of free speech.
Drima:
When people, any people, use free speech and expression to incite hatred and violence, it should be condemned.
You can condemn it, but denying it or repressing it creates more problems. Anything that gets repressed usually bubbles up to the surface, usually with greater force.
Burning our holy book isn’t constructive, it plays into the hands of Muslim extremists and makes their poinst seem more valid. The cycle keeps growing, feeding on itself and creating more polarization.
Muslim extremists have done their Rage Boy routines so often now (how many times has the fabled Arab Street exploded?) that less and less people in the western world care about their points anymore. And the notion of moderate Muslims being swayed by them is already assumed.
The cycle keeps growing, feeding on itself and creating more polarization.
All the more reason to see war as a valid option for problem solving.
Katz,
Thanks for not knowing how to argue with me respectfully. Truly shows the nature of your personality. Pat’s stance against abortion clinic doctors is nothing but disgraceful, and shouldn’t be justified. Supporting the bombing is just as bad as justifying these deaths. The way he described and supported it, yes, I would call it PRAISE.
Secondly, you seriously trust these terrorists enough to allow them to define an entire religion for you? Are you seriously that gullible? Here’s a fun fact, Mr. Islam 101, they don’t represent me or my faith. Just because they say so, doesn’t mean shallow people like you can run around claiming to be experts on the religion. “ya they said so, i belif it! omg they even held a sign that said so!!”
When someone tries to refute an argument in a very shallow and disrespectful manner, the way you have done in your previous post, it really just shows the insecurity they have about their own opinions (which you seem to be actively trying to enforce.) The fact remains that there are many decent Muslims out there. They are very active in the promotion of tolerance, peace, and interfaith, but are unfortunately misrepresented or unheard. Do yourself a favor and visit this particular blog instead of LGF or whatever you rely on for this biased information. Many Muslims here and elsewhere will tell you that their values are not represented by the terrorists you are describing, with the intention of feeding a stereotype that hurts everybody, not just our own reputation or worldwide image. When you meet peaceful, open minded, and respectful Muslims, the last thing you should do is insist that they are practicing a violent religion. It’s not helping anybody. These are personal beliefs, with personal histories and deep faiths that no one else can truly understand without actually being a part of it.
Dominik:
The stronger can ignore a much higher intensity of attacks, and the weaker has a natural tendency to overly defensive reactions. In this sense: The strength of the extremists is their weakness – and the weakness of “the West†is it’s strength.
Interesting view, yet I find it a bit too pat. Keep in mind that when the Muslim street explodes in insulted anger, most of the victims… are Muslims. There is simply very little thinking behind their rage.
Katz, there’s no reason to disrespect the host of the website. Disagree all you want, but keep in mind that personal attacks weaken your arguments.
But where did Pat support abortion clinic bombings?
Ah, but the same also applies to you.
Actually the information I get from Islam is from Muslims themselves.
I wish a lot of people on the forum would actually do their research, or shut the **** up about things they know nothing about apart from repeating indoctrinated dogma gleaned from the very unintelligent and very uninformed.
Unfortunately that’s how things are in this forum. Unpopular opinions are not welcomed. pro-Islamist opinions are welcomed with open arms. stick around and you’ll see what I mean…
Grow up. Thank you.
Esra’a said:
katz_killer, I disagree with you. This site is about more constructive things than discussing “which religion is more extremistâ€, and they’re doing a great job, especially Esra’a.
Finnpundit, of course I was just highlighting one of many aspects.
Unpopular opinions are not welcomed?! Seriously, do you even read this blog? People disagree with each other here ALL the time, nothing has ever been deleted, you just don’t realize it because they are actually being respectful. Did you not read the 100+ comments on the post “Is it really Islam?” where most people were directly against Islam yet were being respectful to the authors and fellow commenters?
I second Jina’s comment. Grow up. Things are NOT like this in this forum, you are just being whiny, rude, and difficult.
To go back on topic, in the same source I gave you, there were further discussions about the bombing of abortion clinics, being linked to Christianity yet again:
So, attacks on gay clubs and abortion clinics, they are okay. Because the commenter knows about the violent abortion clinic fiasco. And the tsunami? Apparently it was well-deserved. Gays and lesbians did it. Eliminate these rights from your society so Pat and his friends can be happy. Do you let him represent the Christian faith despite all these links? I wonder what religious Christian gays might think about Pat’s misrepresentation of them? What about Christian women who wish to maintain abortion rights? Certainly Pat speaks for them all, right? He speaks from the Book!
Another comment within the same source, admitting that Christian extremism exists:
She hit the nail on the head there. Preaching hatred is not a value of any religion – but ALL religions have people who practice it in that manner.
I thought about how the terrorists come from a group of people who are twisting religion to fit their own desire for power, and are harming thousands of people in the process (not just the ones they kill, but all the people they repress as well). And I thought about how the Christian extremists in this country are doing the same thing. I thought about the people who have killed doctors and bombed abortion clinics in this country, and I see that we have religious terrorism in this country too. When people like Jerry Falwell make comments like that, I wonder how long it will be until we face more attacks from people in our own country? It’s hard to believe someone could preach such hatred and call himself a Christian, or a religious person of any sort.
Okay, I assume you are having copy/paste issues.
No, you’re confusing Jerry Falwell with Pat Robertson. They’re two different people, which is why they have different names.
If that was even said by Pat Robertson and not Jerry Falwell, you should realize that “bringing misery on themselves” is not an endorsement for violent behavior. It’s really similar to parents attempt at frightening their children by telling them that pre marital sex will lead to STD’s as opposed to telling them that they personally will physically harm them if they decide to have sex.
Danial:
It is possible for them to create a law based on the precepts of Christianity, but there is no such thing as Christian law. Christians were liberated from the law of the Jews. Christians thus have precepts and explicit commands on the lines of those precepts, but no law.
Their terrorist actions are decidedly non-Christian as all violence is.
No, when Jerry stated that, did you not read the article? He said “I concur.” In other words he agrees. In other words he believes the same thing. In other words her statement applies to Pat as well. In other words they reflect Christianity, by your own definition, because apparently if someone believes these things in the name of “God” then golly jee, it must be true.
fuck islam, fuck all of you muslim pigs. i hope to see you all perished from this earth. go katz_killer!! i’m going to go to take a big fat shit on the quran now. GOD BLESS AMERICA
Update:
It turns I was right and Esra’a was wrong (surprise, surprise). Jerry Falwell, not Pat Robertson issued the following statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell#September_11th_attacks
But I can certainly join you in condemning Pat Robertson for those insensitive comments that he never actually said. – and congratulate him for never making them in the first place.
hi mark, very brave comment thx
whats ur numbar i’d like to date plz. i am wearing a GAP t-shirt if that helps i hear it’s made in the usa which is superior to us
thx for your intarezt,
islamic grrl
btw can u get me a green card i rally need to go to usa to pracize civil rights and mebe abortian. i want to see clubs also is it possible plz
Katz, who are you surprising? This is the actual source, which I specifically linked and referred to – more than twice now!
- Source (surprise, surprise)
Hint: See red text!
No, because there aren’t any passages that condone violence in the NT.
I think we already went over this in another thread…. I’m gonna go back to reading Stephen King now.
ktnxbai.
Eh?
Blaming people does not endorse killing them.
Would you like to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
and next time you post some shit like this you better apologise for everything you did to americans, jews and christians. i hope to see you dead in a very tragic way, that same way you terrorists killed our innocent people.
It’s actually kthxbi… you added an n and forgot the h and added an a.
Hope that helps.
You are so cute… you must be 10. Can I pinch your cheeks?
Okay, that’s it.
I’ve had enough. Personal threats, attacks, insults, and extreme hatred are not welcome here. It sparks no civil dialogue, and I have tolerated enough of the above. Like many other things, I’ll let this slide. But Mark, you better not repeat that garbage in any other threads. 3 warnings and I start deleting.
I now withdraw myself from this disgusting thread. Have fun hating, kiddies.
You mean that malicious attack of yours against Pat Robertson? In the US, we call that libel.
Misinformation and disinformation about Christianity and Pat Robertson = “acceptable”
Alleged misinformation and disinformation about Islam = “Unacceptable”
Thanks for clearing up your position on this issue.
You call that a malicious attack? Aw! You are sensitive.
It is very disappointing to see this comment thread go down this way, the post itself is very powerful and could have introduced many more interesting ideas by the readers here who probably feel threatened to share their thoughts as a result of the provocative and distasteful comments.
Please all, learn how to be nice. This place used to be great when everyone posted radically different views in a very kind manner to each other. Now I see it turning into a hate fest. Shame.
Esra’a:
hi mark, very brave comment thx
whats ur numbar i’d like to date plz.
I literally LOL! You cracked me up!
Seriously, though, I appreciate Esra’a's efforts in wanting to keep the debates here civil. It is totally incorrect that she only tolerates pro-Muslim views. She has shown me that she does keep an open mind and an interest in alternative points-of-view. The personal, lewd attacks are really uncalled for.
Mark, go back to fucking your sisters at your trailer park in Alabama.
You think you’re so tough hiding behind that computer? Calling her a “nigger”?
I dare you to go to Compton and get away with calling anyone there a “nigger”. Let’s see how long your white trash ass lasts in Compton with your shit-talking.
Fucking loser.
Esra’a and the other Muslims who post on this forum are every bit as much of an Islamic context as the militants. They’re just getting started to make a difference. Just wait …
To katz_killer and Finnpundit, you guys should expand your minds a bit about how political Islam is played out and represented. Things are not nearly as black-and-white as you think. Otherwise, how do you explain this from the head of Ansar al-Islam?
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1056170.ece
Whatdya know? An al-Qaeda affiliated leader kissed the Koran and likened his plight to the Jews and acknowledges Israel as the Jewish homeland. Can you get over your institutionalized thinking already?
Finnpundit, I’m really glad you came to that conclusion about Esra’a. She can have a temper sometimes, yes, but her intentions have always been very sincere from the start and she has always kept an open-mind towards alternative views.
Mark, I’m Afro-Arab and I am Muslim. Did you hear that? I’m Muslim, but not just any Muslim, I’m a BLACK Arab Muslim. Can I get some insults too please? Pwetty pwetty please with a cherry on top?
All religions are dangerous and discriminating. As a atheist I feel extremely offended by the muslim talks of “corruptors of the world”, and the position they can expect when the Chaliphat succeds.
How can any muslim expect, and even demand respect from non religious humans when their Quoran defames them and even allow the indicriminate killings of them.
how can you expect anything but contempt and dispespect, when the verdict for those who want to convert to a less viloent religion, or non at all is DEATH. (afghanistan).
In iran the hang teenagers for having homosexual relations. Homosexuals should be killed according to islam. Women that enjoy adultery are also executable. What kind of nightmare religion is this. Cant you see the evilness. The Sharia is the basis for all law in islam, and it is dicriminating against women, it is violent at hatefull to non muslims unless they submit to the power of islam. BVVVDR
How come muslims cant understand that we despise your religion as the plague. How can you ask respect for such beliefs.
Worst of all is that imams advocates that muslims can lie to non muslims if it is good for islam. Why should we trust anything they say, when they explain all the good of islam and ignore the bad.
Personally I find religion in general as brainwash. When i see haow many contradictions and stupidities all the “holy books contain i feel like puking all over them.
Why do people beleave such crazy writings and practice stupid rituals when a little critical thinking would reveal that they are getting conned, bigtime.
damn, this blog certainly opened up the floodgates, didn’t it? Start shooting a Quran and everybody (myself included) wants in on the discussion. First, I don’t like to see books destroyed, sacred or not. The only people who enjoy such activities are those too venal and stupid to read them. However, “These types of reactions give Muslims free reign to go nuts”? What an odd statement. Are you a) speaking on behalf of all Muslims? and b) justifying the legion of rampages that militant and extremist Muslims have inflicted on the world? And where in that video does Christianity come up? Until the Union Jack was flown, I saw nothing indicating it was attributed to anyone. Finally, how can you post on a website dedicated to discussions about Muslims and Islamic issues, on a topic concerning said issues, spend most of your blog talking about said issues, then conclude with a warning “keep our faith out of this”. What else should we talk about? The weather?
P.S. Mark, I can tell you that there is at least one “nigger” in America, staining and shaming a great and wonderful nation. You can find him by looking in a mirror.
Neither. I’m saying these reactions fuel the type of behavior that is often complained about all over the world, not just in America or the West. They are certainly not justifiable and we have always condemned such actions here, but they are being triggered. A hateful reaction welcomes further hatred, this is why it’s best to consider the consequences behind what you say or what you do. If you choose to express yourself in a violent manner – you will get violent reactions in return. It’s expected but not accepted, especially not by us whose reputations are being unfairly tarnished through this.
You did not understand the post at hand.
What I said is nothing about Christianity being linked to that video. In fact I was discussing the idea that extremism exists not only within Islam or through Islam, but exists within all religions of this world, because violence remains to be a human trait, not a religious one.
Again you misunderstand. Both the post and the mission behind this website.
1) I was talking about keeping our faith not out of this discussion, but out of the general idea of terrorism, as there is no real link. These are political actions, not religious ones, and they certainly aren’t representatives of Muslims in general.
2) This website is not dedicaed to Islam or Muslims (or else we would have called it Muslim Youth) – it is a diverse network that includes people of all faiths and countries within the region. We discuss anything and everything, Islam actually plays a minor role in most of our entries which are either political, social, or cultural in nature.
So, I hope you understand the post and this website better now. You didn’t seem to before.
“Was the threat of burning our holy book in Copenhagen not an overreaction? ”
Think nothing of it. It was just a handful of Nazis trying to get attention. AND it never happened + it’s considered a hate crime by Danish law and would’ve been punished as such.
Wanna know what really hurt during the battle of Khartoon ? Not the boycott, not the death threats, not even the embassy burnings, to some extent the killings of innocent Muslims and Christians in Nigeria et al.
No, the flag burnings; that really hurt. “we” never burned the flag of another country. It is “ours” as a nation. A symbol of “us” as a people.
Guess a ME Arabic speaker hasn’t the same veneration for a flag. Your borders were drawn by politicians, not developed over 1000 years.
What makes a book holy ? Consensus. If enough ppl decide a book is holy then so it is. To an anti-religious person (who considers religion the source of all evil) it’s a unholy thing so to speak. I doubt the shooter has a concept of a holy book.
[Hi there Drima]
Greetings from Denmark, and keep up th’good work
How can you, as a muslim make a distinction between religion,law and politics when Sharia IS the law,politics and guidelines for all to follow.
According to muslims, the wording and guidelines of sharia comes directly, word for word from, from what you beleave is a god. I.e. perfection not to be altered by humans. This is not just extremist muslims that hold this view. 80% of UK muslims found it acceptable to kill ppl that convert from islam.
What is a holy book to you is distilled profanity for others. What some people call words of god is percieved as words of the devil for others.
There is not ONE single evidence that any god exixts. NOT ONE.
Christianity is not a religion of law but conduct as opposed to islam. Ergo people do not get fatwas or other sanctions for not living according to their book of fantasy.
Religion is separating people and making it us against the others, even if it is inconsequential fiction witout evidence. How do you convince yourself that these religionfounders were speakers of god.
Ah…because they say so themselves, is this really enough for you to base your life upon. What a waste. When you die you will find that it was not any different from the period before you were born. You have already been dead for an eternity and you shall go back to be dead for another eternity.
Dont you ever think how stupid you are if all the books are hoax, and could be proven to be so. Why dont you read your “books” with some critical sense, and then spot all the contradictions, that clearly indicates that no deity is involved in the production of said book.
Anyhow, I dont see any problems in burning or shooting a book, the bible, the qouran, the new testament. They are all responsible for millions of dead humans, for no reason at all. They are creating a lot of evil and violence.
There is difference between religions. Islam is the big bombmakerreligion of our times. I dont see the references to the bible for bombing anybody. I dont see any jihad or fatwa in the bible. What I hear is “turn the other cheek” and love you enemy. Islam is not such a loving religion, but aggressive and violent. Just read of the story of your socalled phrofet. A violent conquroer. He was a pedophile who would have been jailed immidiately in any western society had he lived today. Marrying a 9 year old. Dispicable. Worst part is that it should be legal to all according to islam even today. The oppression of women is a crime agaist humankind of proportions. Why cant women marry two or more men if she wants. Because women are subhuman according to islam.
The good part is that it should be obvious to all that Islam is responsible for all muslim nations living in the dark ages and their worsening economies in longer terms will make the collapse. At the same point the secular countries will develop and get richer widening the economic gap between the muslims and the rest of the world. In the end you may discover that your faith is the reason that you are the poor, underdeveloped and archaic brethren of the world. All because of your violent religion. Why do so many muslims migrate to the western and secular world they despise. Why do we have imams and mullahs in europe. Why dont muslims stay where their religion rule the land.
As an atheist, I am used to be ignored by muslims debatters on different forums. I am not a man of any book. The bible you all know was paid for by the roman emperor Augustin. He choose what was to be in the book and what not. And people call it a book of god. Jesus qoutes could be spoken in less than a 1½ hours.
The apparent line in all religons are that no matter how good a man you are, no matter how many good deeds you perform, you will never come to paradise if you choose (rather your parents) a wrong religion. Even if you grow up on an island without contact to the world, you shall go to hell because you were not of the right belief, because you were aware of its existence.
Religion is the worst killer in the history of mankind. Religion is evil in its essence because it always pits us against the others. Religious people tend to beleave they have a patent on the thruth making all other people infidels.
My big issue is why do muslims ask for my respect, when it is not given by islam. How come you do not understand that the feelings you harbour towards non muslims are returned in kind. You call us enemy and demands respect at the same time. You will get what you give. Which is nothing.
Nothing at all.
Islam and terrorism are linked toghether. No matter how much you try to obscure the facts. Why are violence justified as a reaction to words. Words are not violence. They are just words, they dont kill or maim anybody. I can off hand mention at least 10 or 15 teroristacts comitted in the name of allah and muhammed against western populations. Justified in the words of the qouran.
Show me the other religions with blood on their hands, (not talking about political governments).
What other religions teach the followers to kill and conquer in the name of allah and muhammed. None.
Secular societies respect all religions and are based on mans law. The law of god does not exists as god does not exist. Still muslim societies act as if he really did exist even though all evidence points to the opposite. I.e. that there are no god. He all a mind game created by humans. Moderne scientists see very clear sympthoms that muhammed was suffering from epelepthic seziures, which primitive and uninformed people could mistake for “godly” intervention.
Try to apply a bit of science and facts, and dont just beleave waht is passed on to you form previous generations of mistakes and selfdilusion
Tell that to the Christian fundies. Just because you said so doesn’t mean they don’t’ do it. Christian fundies do use biblical laws, whatever the hell that is. When a Christian fundie (Bush) sends some one to be hanged for a crime, I am gona believe Christianity is a religion of murder. Why because I base my education of Christianity based on these fundies like how your education of Islam comes from the actions of the Muslim fundies.
It can work the same way. Educate yourself about the religion before you say anything. Realize that religions are alike, it’s the followers who fuck it up. Words of Jesus, like that of Mohammad is very nice, angelic and idealistic, but some twisted their words to fit what they do and thus use religion as an excuse to enforce their point of view and fools who never studied the religion base their education solely on these individuals.
Same goes for every other religion then.
Because Allah and Mohammed have no importance in other religions…
And Crusaders and colonizers used Jesus to do what they do, Bush went to Iraq because Jesus/God told him to. Buddhist in Sri Lanka use Buddhism to kill the minorities. Hindus in India butcher Muslims in the name of a gods who told them to do no harm even to a bug. Give me a fucking break… educate yourself before you utter such none-sense.
So you agree that all religion are the source of evilness and hatred amongst people. I am happy that you undrstand my point.
Fundie christians are making interpretation of the bibble whereas the qouran are very clear and not open to interpretations, when it comes to the conquest and submission of infidels et al.
Bush may be christian, which i am not, but he rules under secular law, which does not claim to be perfect or created by a divine creature who does not make any mistakes. It can also be altered according to neccessity whereas the qouran and islam is is inflexible and unable to adapt to modern times. Because god can not be mistaken, if you believe in muhammeds words. When Bush wages war he does it as a head of a nation state. Not some christian sect or on behalf of any church. It is only the qouran that mixes its teachings with law and politics. There are lots of muslim americans and he do represent them too.
Sharia is pretty clear on most issues, which is why only a few nations implement sharia wholeheartedly. But consider the punishment for a nonbeliever drinking alchohol in iran, saudi or pakistan even if he does not give a shit about the teachings of the qouran. Is that to respect people of other beliefs. Islam wants other people to submit to the taboos of islam without ever considering doing so itself.
Anyway please do not associate me with any religion at all as i find all of them harmful and distorting to human coexistence. Most religious believers think they have the real facts, even if evidence is scarce or totally missing from their religon, when submitted to proper scrutiny. But that fact is ignored so that they can keep on their religious fantasyworld of deceit and wishfull thinking. Wake up and abolish your religions and join humankind together and in peace.
When somone use the term evil, they sound like a religous person.
Don’t you realize that there is no such thing as “evil”.
You sound like an expert on Sharia, how many years have you spent studying the Quran and the Sharia Law? Want to give me a proof from a academic source that backs up your view? If not please shut up.
Sharia does not apply to non-Muslims. If the nations say they do then they are going against Sharia.
In India and Sri Lanka, Sharia is applied to personal matters of Muslims, but not everyone. In Iraq, Christians and non-Muslims would sell alcohol without problems until Bush bombed that country. In Egypt, Sharia is only for Muslims. Christians follow their own law etc. I can go on.
I am certainly not religious in any way. Therefore evel has an eartly meaning as opposed to the “divine” misunderstanding of the word. I do understand that muslims stone the evil to keep it in check.
However I dont see the point in wasting years of precious life studying the words,the qouran, and interpretatons, hadith, or rules, sharia to label it very intolerant of other faiths, bordering racism. The general view on rational people, i.e. atheists or agnogstics are that the are “corruptors of the world” and therefore should be eradicated. You can properly find verse and chapter if you, yourself are wel schooled in the teachings.
Christians and jew shall submit to islams teachings and respect their dogma thereby aknowlidging the supremacy of the muslim faith. A muslim man can marry a christian woman but not vica versa. WHY.
If a god existed do you then honestly think he would discriminate the 4.5 billion people curruntly living happy lives without islam, and all the already dead perople of other observations, including those pre muhammed ones. Are they all doomed. Even if the lived perfect honest and honourable lives, all religions always claim only true believers og the books get the entrance ticket to paradise.
Why would god care, what kind of indoctrination your parent, brothers, wise people in your community performed on you, if you live with respect and love to your fellow man ? Shall all the children of the world fear that the adhere to the wrong interpretation of this book or another ?
Religious people tend to be convinced that their beleifs (as opposed to facts) are the exact right way god intended them to practise the worship.
Is it not true that people who think they have found god and thruth tend to feel superior to people of other faiths because they are wrong and we are right. Is it not common for religious people to actively try to get other to convert to their exact religion, but detest if people point out the irrationality of their teachings.
One last thing. Sharia DO apply to all muslims. And I still claim that it eventually should apply to everybody in the world when the chaliphat is established. But I cannot respect or accept a religion that dictates the ritual killing of good people that rejcts their fathers primitive mind set and religion. Converts are fair game and promotos your sentence on the day of the dead or whatever. Religion is bad for children. Growing up the burden of your fathers sins as a christian, or the horrible tortures a muslim shall endure BEFORE he is judged by the supreme being. This dispicable.
I could keep on, writing about the absurd realities of religion, but i am aware that most of the world arent ready yet to throw away some complete fictitious and randomly selected stories as basis for their lives and societies. This is a petty because a life without the dogma and restrictions of religion gives you the freedom of thougt and of opinion that makes you an individual that can try to fulfill your own dreams without having to fear the punishment later.
I live and love and when I die it shall be no different from what it was before I was born. It was OK, but I recognize the enormous amount of of luck that gave me life, therefore I embrace life, to get fullest out of the sheer and brief moment I am here.
Life is a match being lit in a dark room. It explodes with vigorous power of life and vanes slowly letting the flame settle down and die slowlyor accidently get blown out ahead of time. When its burned out, the room is just exactly as dark as it used to be.
Embrace life, dont let darkend minds destroy that precious gift with lies and indoctrination
Esra’a,
My daughter came across this blog while doing research for an English paper on book burning and censorship. I am so glad that she found this.
I love the work that you are doing. I am so happy that my daughter can see read responses from “Christians,” as I feel it really helps her to understand the Nazi regime, how it began, and how it progressed. In our house, I have tried to teach my children to have respect for other people’s beliefs. We are blessed enough that my daughter goes to a school that is extremely diverse, and approximately 1/3 Muslim. She has friends from every ethnicity, and many religions. It has given her the opportunity to look past beliefs to the person.
As an American, I am so ashamed by the atrocities put forth by our previous president, and I apologize for the views of some of our less educated citizens. I think that Bush should be prosecuted for war crimes, just like the Nazi’s were.
Thank you for your efforts to educate the less educable.