Oh and Myrtus, how about an example of my so-called anti-Muslim hatred?

She never said that you hate Muslims. Learn to read, Ray. She said she resents how you desperately try to manipulate Muslims into feeling resentment when there is no reason to; and that she, as a Muslim, will make up her own mind, based upon the evidence itself, about whether she feels her community is being bashed rather than rely upon your extremely poor and agenda-driven analytical skills. It really is beyond ridiculous how desperate you are to refashion the things others say to satisfy your own angry psychological issues.

Cheap shot. PV engaged in Muslim bashing but you’d rather let that slide because you expect it; someone who tosses in a patronizing reference to Muslims in a discussion about the failings of the American system.

Hardly. The fact of the matter is that I used an analogy to show that you have the same mindset that Islamophobes do; and that it’s not admissible to paint any community in a singularly negative light whether that community is the USA or ummah. Myrtus clearly saw that you honed in only upon the analogy I made toward Muslims while ignoring the one toward Christians, purposely trying to rally them to disregard the evidence and become allies with your anger instead. You have an agenda, Ray, and it’s not peace. It’s publicity.

Oh and Myrtus, how about an example of my so-called anti-Muslim hatred? Or, is criticism of Islamic politics Muslim bashing? Is criticism of an Imam who tells his flock not to participate in Halloween (shut the door, tell your children American kids are worshiping the devil and put a note on your door to go away), Muslim bashing? Is Muslim bashing defending the rights of Mohammed Salah in Chicago when no one else will stand up for him, or Anna Mustafa, who is arrested at O’Hare Airport because the clerk, right after Sept. 11, asks, “Do you want Muslim food” and then they put her through hell searching for a “bomb” and when she asks, what “bomb” they arrest and jail her for 3 days because she said the word “bomb.”

The only Muslims who criticize me are those who hate secular Arabs who insist that we are not Muslim or Christian but ARAB and that Palestine is an Arab issue first and foremost, not some stepping stone to some bigger religious issue. Someone who says that every nation should be Islamic but then turns around abd bashes Israel because it is a “Jewish” State.

Cheap shot. PV engaged in Muslim bashing but you’d rather let that slide because you expect it; someone who tosses in a patronizing reference to Muslims in a discussion about the failings of the American system.

Your use of bad words only reflects your mental state and inability to articulate the facts.

That’s for being the champion of the people who attack me because I am Christian, Secular and not afraid to stand up and denounce bad practices be they by Muslims, Christians or Jews, and then isn’t afraid to defend he majority of Muslims, Christians or Jews who are good

People don’t debate ignorance. They point it out.

Ray Hanania

you are totally projecting.

you accused me of attempting to coerce others to agree with me because i suggested that maybe we, as arab americans, don’t always have to knock ourselves out trying to be ultra patriotic. you are coming from a position where your job, livelihood and personal safety weren’t directly threatened post 9-11 specifically because of your ethnicity. you aren’t coming from the position of either hanging american flags all over your business/home or having your business/home vandalized…and even with the flags you’re still not safe from it. i don’t say this because i am attempting to make us eternal victims, but because it’s true, it’s what really happened. this is why i made the assertion that maybe there are intra community things that you don’t get. why not examine what “your community” thinks? you might be surprised at how much you didn’t know, already knew, and didn’t realize you knew.

are you here to be an ally to middle eastern people or what? i am too used to my particular corner of the blog-world, i guess. i should have known that asking someone to consider the filter through which they view the world would be unacceptable, even here on MIDEAST YOUTH. you’ve attempted to turn this into a situation where i’ve victimized you. that’s not what happened. i made it very clear from the beginning that i am not attacking anyone. i care about this issue, and talking through it and finding solutions.

it’s also telling that, out of everything else my comment said, you focused on the words to you could twist to make yourself the victim. i’m not sure what the first two quotations in your comment have to do with anything.

anyway, i have been through so many similar scenarios before and choose to focus my energy in more productive ways. so unless this thread takes a significantly different turn, i’m done.

george–why must i speak positively on the US?

and then answers her own question

i didn’t feel attacked, just wanted to make sure no one felt attacked by me because people often have a hard time dealing with this stuff despite it’s historically factual basis.

then she asks:

do you think it’s possible that there are things about our community that you, as a white man, don’t understand or know about?

I have no idea why you think that I feel that I understand the way that “your” community thinks. Oh, I see, it’s because I’m white, so I must think that, right? Nadia, I certainly don’t even understand the way that my “own” community – whatever that is – thinks.

You feel the need to put me in a box, exclude me, etc. Fine. There’s nothing I can do about it apparently since it makes you feel special.

also, are you unaware of the existance of survivors of domestic violence in the US? being american does not save us from this, and you do a great disservice to women by spreading this false information around.

george–why must i speak positively on the US? there are plenty of other venues for this kind of talk that get much more exposure than i do. i have no obligation to spread positivity about the US, especially not when i am attempting to speak out against injustice and change those injustices, in part by providing an alternate viewpoint. i don’t have to speak positively of the united states, and to do so would be a waste of my time.

i am not a nationalist. i am not a patriot. i am coming at this with an entirely different framework, apparently. i don’t believe that the united states has a “right to exist.” i see this attachment to the colonialist state we are living in as, among other things, a fundamental obstacle to american support for palestinians. if one refuses to admit one is living in an illegal occupying state, how can one condemn another illegal occupying state? this is why it bothers me to hear a palestinian advocating this patriotism and nationalism.

i’m not trying to “coerce” anyone to agree with me. do you think it’s possible that there are things about our community that you, as a white man, don’t understand or know about? like the fact that for many people, total assimilation was the only way to survive in america? or the fact that post 9-11, many people felt they had to be ultra patriotic and hang american flags on every surface to avoid being victims of racist hate crimes? i think you should examine why it is that you feel so qualified to comment on my statements from outside our community.

are you saying that you admire people who joined the military and fought in wars when you say you admire people like ray and his family? so you are coming at this from a framework of war being neccessary and soldiers being heroic? i am coming at this from a framework of war being ultimately destructive–war means rape, murder, the razing of entire cities–and soldiers being young, poor people (disproportionately of color) who had/felt they had few other choices, who exploitative recruiters had access to every week at school. and i’m not saying this from some ivory tower (because people on the internet of certain class status tend to think that everyone else is like them); i have close connections to what i’m speaking about. i am 23 years old, many of my peers are in iraq and afghanistan as we speak.

and george, i didn’t feel attacked, just wanted to make sure no one felt attacked by me because people often have a hard time dealing with this stuff despite it’s historically factual basis.

ray–i wonder why PV’s comment, which was largely noncontentious within the context of your original post, got picked apart, while my comment, which contains criticism of the arab american community FROM an arab american, was ignored. if you assumed PV’s comment to be muslim bashing, wouldn’t it make more sense and be a better use of time to engage with intra-community criticism instead of bashing?

Hey what a surprise! Yet another Muslim who sees Ray Hanania for the HATER that he is. I wouldn’t call him “a shit” though, a DISGRACE YES! Nobody is ever a piece of shit.

Hi Myrtus, I am sorry. Never it will be. There is no option to delete.

America is not ALL ABOUT a spin doctor’s clever message, thereby making the flag of 300 million people a symbol of shame to be tucked away out of public view because of the actions of a few men. That’s very uncool. So yeah, you can criticize with the intention of building up, or you can criticize with the intention of tearing down. If all we are is a hollywood movie, than we can only work to polish our appearance, but we’ll never have substance or guiding principles of our own. You’ll never get me to agree to such a thing with the USA or any society

I hail you PV.
Every nation has her virtues and vices, light and dark. When you explore a nation look to her acheivement, greatness and virtues.
A beautiful mind always see beauty everywhere.
Ray forgets;

America belongs to Jefferson and Linchon.
America belongs to Einstein and Merry Curie
America belongs to Del Carnegi and Bil Gates.
America belongs to Ernst Hemingway and Paul Rhobson.
America belongs to Martin Luthar King
America belongs to Statue of Liberty.

Pick up one hundred thousand battered oppressed women from anywhere in the globe and ask ‘ where you destined to go’. They
will whisper America, America, America.
Yes here lies her greatness and strength.

America never belonged to Bush, Cheny and Haliburton and never will be.

PV says to Ray:

“Allow me to change some of your words here to make a point

and gives three stereotypical examples to explain to Ray that what he’s doing is harmful and wrong. It’s obvious the point of PV’s analysis is to show that Ray displays the same mindset that Islamophobes do, not to bash Muslims. What a distortion and injustice!

Instead of arguing the point PV is trying to make, Ray turns into a hating PV-basher and focuses only on one of the three examples PV gave (the one that mentions Muslims) to launch his tirade, of course ignoring the part where PV says:

That sure doesn’t sound like an enlightened way to engage the global Muslim community, does it?

How convenient! Why distort PV’s view about Muslims only? One guess, and it’s not about justice. Simply because PV is a Jew and Ray believes that it’s easier to rile up Muslims against PV rather than admit that he (Ray) is wrong? It sure shows what Ray ultimately thinks about us. Well, we’re not going to be manipulated by you, Ray. PV is cool.

Truth is, Ray Hanania is a hater with zero debating skills, motivated to get adulation in all his professional work while never doing anything to improve the lives of Muslims unless he feels he can get applause from it. Ray’s motives are obvious, he’s not at all intrested in constructive debate, only character assassination and creating an atmosphere of anger and resentment that feeds into his agenda.

Ray should be ashamed of himself. He seems desperate to manipulate us Muslims to have conflict with someone we shouldn’t, and I resent his smarmy tactics. He is a liar who insults us by thinking we are easily tricked into falling for his distortions as if we cannot examine evidence that is staring us right in the face. We can read PV’s words and interpret them for ourselves, Ray, we’re not too stupid to do so for ourselves even though you seem to think we are. We know what this means:

That sure doesn’t sound like an enlightened way to engage the global Muslim community, does it?

We’re quite capable of deciding for ourselves when we should be offended, we don’t need you trying to encourage us to feel anger or resentment towards people with good intentions and whose heart is in the right place. It’s obvious that you’re the hater by thinking we Muslims can be so easily incited, not PeacefulVanguard who speaks to us with equality and optimism. And I say this as a Muslim woman who has been subjected to plenty of bigotry and hate merely because of my religion and ethnicity. So, whether you mind or not, I’ll speak for myself based upon insider knowledge of my own community rather than have you try and do it for us.

Ray says:

Peaceful Vanguard is a Muslim basher, in my opinion, and everything he writes or says is about attacking Muslims. of course, maybe the difference is that I actually served in the U.S. military

I say cut it out Ray, this is the biggest fat lie I’ve ever heard!

I love America and I love the REAL principles that it stands for, not the distorted crap that Bush the war criminal has done to our country or his Svengali, Dick Cheney, has done either. The White House is a criminal conspiracy and they all belogn in jail. They destroyed the principles that make our country great and have exploited the emotions of the people of America to fund a war that is illegal and unjustified and frankly an outright act of real terrorism — George Bush is the real Evildoer

Yes America is paying the price in blood and treasure for the unholy war initiated by Bush endorsed by congress in Afganisthan and Iraq. When you hear death and destruction of
evil imperial army face towards Mecca and exclaim ‘ hamdudilla’.
Take it from me, humilated defeat and cowardly retreat is just
matter of time. This is beginning of the end of American imperial
power. Praise the lord. A new power is emmerging in the horizon.
Welcome it. Forget about bush, cheny, haliburton. They are already in the dustbin of history.

What ‘principal’ you talking about. You hate to waive American flag on 4th july. If everything of America is evil I see you are a shit.