Liberals Under Attack… by Fatwa!
July 17th, 2007“Calling oneself a liberal Muslim is a contradiction in terms … one should repent before God for such ideas in order to be a real Muslim.” “He who wants freedom with only the controls of man-made law has rebelled against the law of God,” a prominent Saudi cleric Sheikh Saleh Al-Fozan said last month.
The fatwa said that liberal in this context meant “freedom which is not subject to the bounds of sharia (Islamic law) and which rejects sharia laws, especially concerning women…”.
My God.. as if we need such a statement that will yet create a bigger gap between the majority whom are the religious extremists and the liberals in Saudi Arabia. Such statement suggests liberals are not real Muslims and is a clear implication of violence against them, at least this is how some extremists see it!
I have been checking a few web-sites on the subject, to my surprise (me being so gullible) I found many who have been just waiting for the green light to attack!
As you might have noticed, women issues are the focus of such debates! women rights=infidels!
Many liberals feared their lives after hearing this statement which forced Al-Fozan to clarify his fatwa in Al-Riyadh local Saudi newspaper.
This is part of the article by Reuters on the subject
Fozan was recently forced to issue a clarification in Saudi newspaper al-Riyadh after Islamists hailed the fatwa as a declaration that liberals are infidels. He said pronouncing someone an infidel was a separate issue in Islamic law.
Such declarations, called takfeer in Arabic, are sensitive because al Qaeda militants fighting U.S.-allied governments in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and elsewhere in the region use the idea to justify their campaign of jihad, or holy war.
“Radicals say ‘Sheikh Fozan has issued the fatwa and we should act accordingly’, which is a little alarming,” said Hamza Mozainy, a well-known critic of the Saudi system, referring to Islamist Web sites that welcomed the fatwa.
Novelist Turki al-Hamad, a long-time target of Saudi Islamists, also said the fatwa could lead to violence.
“Even if his (Fozan) intention is not calling for violence, the implication is violence,” Hamad said.
Saudi Arabia’s religious establishment has for long focussed its attention on the word “secular”, which most Saudi reformers now avoid, but “liberal” has gained currency in its place.
Liberal and Islamist reformers both call for parliamentary elections limiting the desert country’s absolute monarchy.
But many liberals also want to see clerical influence rolled back, with, for example, Saudi Arabia’s religious police force disbanded and an end to strict gender segregation.
“When they hear ‘liberalism’ they perceive it as a form of moral corruption. They don’t know it’s a whole philosophy concerning freedom of the individual,” Hamad said.
“These fatwas are a kind of defense mechanism against this spreading idea.”
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Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that freedom of the individual IS moral corruption.
“There is no faster way to corrupt nations than the emancipation of women — that is getting her out on the street to entice men and ruin their morals,â€
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/12/different-views-on-women-in-saudi-arabia/
Grumpy.. I hope you are not using this quote which I used in a previous article to irritate me!!
I am sure many believe in this statement.. that’s why we are in this situation now..
I will play along.. women are the devil!! I wonder how we women give birth to such holy creatures called men?!! why don’t you just bury us a live and end humanity here and now!! then there will be peace at last on earth! haa
Grumpy, do you always have to make troubles, you object to everything that is said on this site, GIVE US A BREAK!
No, Rasha, I wasn’t trying to irritate you: I linked to your article because it contained a quote (from al-Habdan, I didn’t mean to imply it was from you) that I thought was an excellent example of how liberalism does lead to moral corruption by strict Islamic standards.
Do you disagree? You said practically the same thing yourself.
Josef: if you don’t like it when bystanders point out the nonsense that your religion’s “prominent” clerics are spewing then try getting some sensible clerics.
So women rights, based on your ideal, is part of corruption? trying to give women more power, means signing a one-way contract to our own apocalyptic end.. No?
Well, my Grumpy friend, if you read the islamic laws, thoroughly, as i doubt that Fozan fellow did, you’d see that in Islam, a woman’s place is so high, so influential, so strong, that to things be straight in this world we need to Praise women and treat them like they’re our queens.. Not just give them a few rights that they ask for, which are too modest compared to what they SHOULD have in the first place..
If you want to “picker” around, you should at least have a strong base to your attacks, not just some childish hate issues..
Grow up..
I had the impression that Rasha’s article was critical of the extremist (or fundamentalist) viewpoint that women are second class citizens, and that women rights = infidel. I was agreeing with her and citing additional examples of the same repressive mindset as Al-Fozan.
Where the hell did you get the idea that “There is no faster way to corrupt…” is MY point of view? You do see the quotation marks, right? The link to the article where the full statement appears?
Crap. Let’s try this again from the beginning:
Thank you for the article, Rasha. That repressive mindset (”a liberal Muslim is a contradiction”) displayed by Sheikh Al-Fozan seems to me to be common among strict clerics: they oppose what I would consider basic human freedoms because freedom itself is a threat to the rule of God’s law. The novelist al-Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that: he seems surprised that fundamentalists consider libberalism to be a form of moral corruption. You made that same point recently in another article, quoting some very misogynistic statements from someone named al-Habdan about how granting women rights would lead to their corruption and men’s, too.
My friend Grumpy..
Read this with eyes peeled open.. YOU did not put any quotation marks around the Hamad related quote i took from you..
Scroll up and see it for yourself..
As for the linguistic misunderstanding, thank you for rephrasing your true intentions and meanings off of what you said earlier.. That wasn’t so hard, wasn’t it?
I guess people fired back at you on the basis that this is a serious topic, and vagueness in replies is a bit too irritating.. Hence what Rasha felt when she first replied to you..
That being said, i guess all is good now..
Or is it?
*fades away in the background*
Being liberal. Being extremist. What does that mean in the context of the Quran? In the context of Western academic discourse? Both these questions require research and debate. What bothers me however is the implication that being “liberal” means being morally corrupt. And that morality somehow hinges on a woman’s virtue. A man’s job therefore is to herd *us* fickle creatures from straying to far from the herd. When will these very men learn that educating a woman is akin to educating a family. That empowering her is not about sexual freedom alone but about choice which she will be accountable for on the Day of Judgement. Who is he to act as judge, jury and executioner? It really saddens me that cleric Fozan’s deep seated fear of women has taken over the rational part of his brain. There he has some similarities to Freud.
Ah! Okay, here’s what I should have said:
Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that freedom of the individual IS moral corruption in the minds of people like Al-Fozan
I’d probably be offended at the “childish hate issues… Grow up..” part, but I’m laughing too hard at the thought that I was mistaken for a Muslim hardliner. Most folks here think I’m an Islamophobic, racist asshole.
I don’t care what people think.. You laid your points in an illusive manner, maybe not intended, but it was, and i reacted accordingly..
H O W E V E R
My comment was based on the misunderstanding.. We’re both to blame.. We both should grow up
No hard feelings..
No, no hard feelings. My first post was done in a hurry and didn’t really spell things out; I can see how it could be misunderstood. In the future I’ll take more time and try to present a clearer position.
I might suggest, though, that the next time you see a post you find “vague” that you ask for clarification: Hey, Grumpy, are you quoting al-Habdan because you agree with him, or to show what a moron he is? You post isn’t clear…
Bedtime here in California: have a good day, everyone.
aaaahhh .. soo nice to feel the peace in this thread..
Grumpy, I did think your comment to be strange and out of character from reading your previous comments..
Now that all is clear.. thanks for quoting Al-Habdan, that stresses on how serious these fatwas are in altering young minds..
About choosing our prominent clerics… we don’t have a choice in that matter.. if we did.. this wouldn’t be happening in the 1st place..
My god,
The same pattern of rulings are going on in The Islamic republic if Iran (IRI).
My question is, do you believe in liberal Muslim? don’t you think so there is a huge distance between Islam and liberalism? I mean if somebody believe in Islam, how on the earth he could be liberal?
We do share same concept in IRI. there are some clerics which they pretend they are liberal Muslims which in reality just they are looking for votes! It’s interesting for me to know what do you think?
Thanks,
Fariborz Shamshiri
[...] Mideast Youth - Thinking AheadArticle: Liberals Under Attack… by Fatwa!Originaly Posted On: 2007-07-17 [...]
Fariborz, let me clear a few points..
I am considered a liberal because I do not cover my face in public in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
I am a liberal because I ask for women’s rights within Islam’s boundaries in this country.
I am a liberal because I don’t believe in segregation and have male colleagues at work (God forbid!! that’s what they say).
I am a liberal because I want to progress rather than live in ignorance….
So, yes I do believe in a liberal Muslim since being moderate is considered liberal in such an extremist country..
Rasha,
I like that. can you clarify for me. Still do you believe in Islam? when don’t you actually obey Islam rulings (for example to cover your head), can you still call yourself a Muslim?
Or just you change everything in Islam the way that you like then you name it liberal Islam and call yourself, liberal Muslim!
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Fariborz,
I mentioned not covering my FACE is considered liberal.
I don’t ask for removal of Hijab in the name of liberal Muslim if that is what you are questioning.
I will answer your question with another question, Is covering a woman’s hair one of Islam’s pillars? Am I not a Muslim if I decide to uncover my hair? So now I am heathen, an infidel in some people’s eyes because of a few strands of hair.. hmm, sure makes sense!
Too bad that Muslims don’t seem to think that preaching hate and violence against infidels is also “corruption” . Too many Muslims think that “morality” is about what a woman wears and how much she stays at home.
As to the “high” “influential” and “strong” position of women in Islam, I wonder what texts you have been reading - obviously not the same ones as I (Quran, Buhkari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tabari, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Ishaq, Kathir, Hisham, etc…). Be very sure that the place of women under Islam is that of second-class citizens.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141
But, on the other hand, the good news is that the status of Muslim women is better than that of infidels. Muslim women, at least, have to do something considered evil before being condemned and punished (usually, but see link above). Infidels, on the other hand, can be killed just for being infidels and saying what they think).
This old infidel has nothing but contempt for people who have different standards for different people (and genders) and for people who don’t even know their own writings. Having read most of the Islamic texts, I can assure you they are not about nice people doing nice things. They are filled with hate, violence and oppression - and they explain the status of women in Islamic societies, and current world events.
That is the sad truth. I am giving you my honest opinion. I do not think that Muslims are stupid, irrational or childish. They are, however, in denial about many basic aspects of Islam. They want to think it is what they would like it to be, not what the Quran and ahadith say. In this respect, the radicals are more honest about these things then the “moderates” or liberals. They are also right about one thing, you cannot be a “liberal” and a good Muslim.
Things are going to get worse between us (non-Muslims) and you (Muslims). Good people will get hurt.
Sad.
John Kactuz
John,
There is no “us” and “you.” We are all in this together. There are bad people/extremists on both sides causing harm and preaching hatred, while the good people are being lumped into pathetic stereotypes.
As for this inaccurate statement:
You have no idea how many Muslim activists are fighting against this - both online and offline - and in the process, risking their lives. You have no idea how hard it is to practice free speech in terms of religion in the Arab and Muslim world. Not everyone is willing to risk their lives to do this, but many people, especially within this website, are doing just that.
There really is no “us” and “them.” There’s decent people and bad people who represent all sides. Uniting against extremism is what we should be doing, instead of separating a gap that shouldn’t really exist to begin with.
Your idea about corrupt religious leaders being more “honest” couldn’t be further from the actual truth - you can very well be a liberal and a good Muslim at the same time. Millions of people are. Your “honest” opinion only shows that you already have a pre-conceived idea about Islam which allows you to believe these leaders’ assumptions. They don’t represent us, a huge number of our youth find it laughable, in my school we used to nickname “Islamic Studies” class (taught by an extremist) as “Bullshit 101.” Because we grew up with this religion, and it isn’t what you define it as.
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