There is no “us” and “you.” We are all in this together. There are bad people/extremists on both sides causing harm and preaching hatred, while the good people are being lumped into pathetic stereotypes.

As for this inaccurate statement:

Too bad that Muslims don’t seem to think that preaching hate and violence against infidels is also “corruption” .

You have no idea how many Muslim activists are fighting against this – both online and offline – and in the process, risking their lives. You have no idea how hard it is to practice free speech in terms of religion in the Arab and Muslim world. Not everyone is willing to risk their lives to do this, but many people, especially within this website, are doing just that.

There really is no “us” and “them.” There’s decent people and bad people who represent all sides. Uniting against extremism is what we should be doing, instead of separating a gap that shouldn’t really exist to begin with.

Your idea about corrupt religious leaders being more “honest” couldn’t be further from the actual truth – you can very well be a liberal and a good Muslim at the same time. Millions of people are. Your “honest” opinion only shows that you already have a pre-conceived idea about Islam which allows you to believe these leaders’ assumptions. They don’t represent us, a huge number of our youth find it laughable, in my school we used to nickname “Islamic Studies” class (taught by an extremist) as “Bullshit 101.” Because we grew up with this religion, and it isn’t what you define it as.

As to the “high” “influential” and “strong” position of women in Islam, I wonder what texts you have been reading – obviously not the same ones as I (Quran, Buhkari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tabari, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Ishaq, Kathir, Hisham, etc…). Be very sure that the place of women under Islam is that of second-class citizens.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141

But, on the other hand, the good news is that the status of Muslim women is better than that of infidels. Muslim women, at least, have to do something considered evil before being condemned and punished (usually, but see link above). Infidels, on the other hand, can be killed just for being infidels and saying what they think).

This old infidel has nothing but contempt for people who have different standards for different people (and genders) and for people who don’t even know their own writings. Having read most of the Islamic texts, I can assure you they are not about nice people doing nice things. They are filled with hate, violence and oppression – and they explain the status of women in Islamic societies, and current world events.

That is the sad truth. I am giving you my honest opinion. I do not think that Muslims are stupid, irrational or childish. They are, however, in denial about many basic aspects of Islam. They want to think it is what they would like it to be, not what the Quran and ahadith say. In this respect, the radicals are more honest about these things then the “moderates” or liberals. They are also right about one thing, you cannot be a “liberal” and a good Muslim.

Things are going to get worse between us (non-Muslims) and you (Muslims). Good people will get hurt.

Sad.

John Kactuz

I will answer your question with another question, Is covering a woman’s hair one of Islam’s pillars? Am I not a Muslim if I decide to uncover my hair? So now I am heathen, an infidel in some people’s eyes because of a few strands of hair.. hmm, sure makes sense!

I like that. can you clarify for me. Still do you believe in Islam? when don’t you actually obey Islam rulings (for example to cover your head), can you still call yourself a Muslim?
Or just you change everything in Islam the way that you like then you name it liberal Islam and call yourself, liberal Muslim!

I am considered a liberal because I do not cover my face in public in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
I am a liberal because I ask for women’s rights within Islam’s boundaries in this country.
I am a liberal because I don’t believe in segregation and have male colleagues at work (God forbid!! that’s what they say).
I am a liberal because I want to progress rather than live in ignorance….

So, yes I do believe in a liberal Muslim since being moderate is considered liberal in such an extremist country..

The same pattern of rulings are going on in The Islamic republic if Iran (IRI).

My question is, do you believe in liberal Muslim? don’t you think so there is a huge distance between Islam and liberalism? I mean if somebody believe in Islam, how on the earth he could be liberal?

We do share same concept in IRI. there are some clerics which they pretend they are liberal Muslims which in reality just they are looking for votes! It’s interesting for me to know what do you think?

Thanks,

Fariborz Shamshiri

About choosing our prominent clerics… we don’t have a choice in that matter.. if we did.. this wouldn’t be happening in the 1st place..

I might suggest, though, that the next time you see a post you find “vague” that you ask for clarification: Hey, Grumpy, are you quoting al-Habdan because you agree with him, or to show what a moron he is? You post isn’t clear…

Bedtime here in California: have a good day, everyone.

H O W E V E R

My comment was based on the misunderstanding.. We’re both to blame.. We both should grow up

No hard feelings..

Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that freedom of the individual IS moral corruption in the minds of people like Al-Fozan

I’d probably be offended at the “childish hate issues… Grow up..” part, but I’m laughing too hard at the thought that I was mistaken for a Muslim hardliner. Most folks here think I’m an Islamophobic, racist asshole.

Read this with eyes peeled open.. YOU did not put any quotation marks around the Hamad related quote i took from you..

Scroll up and see it for yourself..

As for the linguistic misunderstanding, thank you for rephrasing your true intentions and meanings off of what you said earlier.. That wasn’t so hard, wasn’t it?

I guess people fired back at you on the basis that this is a serious topic, and vagueness in replies is a bit too irritating.. Hence what Rasha felt when she first replied to you..

That being said, i guess all is good now..

Or is it?

*fades away in the background*

Where the hell did you get the idea that “There is no faster way to corrupt…” is MY point of view? You do see the quotation marks, right? The link to the article where the full statement appears?

Crap. Let’s try this again from the beginning:

Thank you for the article, Rasha. That repressive mindset (”a liberal Muslim is a contradiction”) displayed by Sheikh Al-Fozan seems to me to be common among strict clerics: they oppose what I would consider basic human freedoms because freedom itself is a threat to the rule of God’s law. The novelist al-Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that: he seems surprised that fundamentalists consider libberalism to be a form of moral corruption. You made that same point recently in another article, quoting some very misogynistic statements from someone named al-Habdan about how granting women rights would lead to their corruption and men’s, too.

Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that freedom of the individual IS moral corruption.

So women rights, based on your ideal, is part of corruption? trying to give women more power, means signing a one-way contract to our own apocalyptic end.. No?

Well, my Grumpy friend, if you read the islamic laws, thoroughly, as i doubt that Fozan fellow did, you’d see that in Islam, a woman’s place is so high, so influential, so strong, that to things be straight in this world we need to Praise women and treat them like they’re our queens.. Not just give them a few rights that they ask for, which are too modest compared to what they SHOULD have in the first place..

If you want to “picker” around, you should at least have a strong base to your attacks, not just some childish hate issues..

Grow up..

Do you disagree? You said practically the same thing yourself.

Josef: if you don’t like it when bystanders point out the nonsense that your religion’s “prominent” clerics are spewing then try getting some sensible clerics.

“When they hear ‘liberalism’ they perceive it as a form of moral corruption. They don’t know it’s a whole philosophy concerning freedom of the individual,” Hamad said.

Hamad doesn’t seem to realize that freedom of the individual IS moral corruption.

“There is no faster way to corrupt nations than the emancipation of women — that is getting her out on the street to entice men and ruin their morals,”
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/12/different-views-on-women-in-saudi-arabia/