shorting cultures introductory preparation …

Many women in these countries are active in their societies and have high college enrollment rates.

Look at the United States, it spends billions of dollars on its schools, but when compared to other industrial countries, its students perform poorly in math and science.

By the way, some of the political and military actions of the United States and its allies today, are as damaging as colonialism.

we didn’t discuss about accepting people with hijab or not! this discussion is far from what you wrote.

maximizing the talents and productivity of 100% of society

It’s very good one!

I wonder how many women in Iran and Saudi Arabia could have been great engineers, chemists, administrators?

I can’t recall of many of them. I am sure there are more Iranian successful females outside of Iran than inside Iran and we know that’s just all about cultural freedom.

If I’m right, though, then the repression of women is NOT due to economic factors but comes entirely from the religion and the culture.

That’s right.

In that case, being a little more progressive socially would cause a huge increase in resources. If total equality could be achieved today then the labor force would increase almost instantly.

it’s very good conclusion.

the number of doctors, architects, etc. would also jump as more and more women entered the high level professions.

I don’t think so it’s about numbers! I think it’s all about upbringing in a free society or closed Islamic society! Because even now, females can apply for almost any course but the environment they get educated in, is much more important than how many get educated.

A free woman can contribute much more to society than one who’s kept in a cage

Thanks Grumpy, I really enjoyed your conclusion.

So women not having equal rights in Muslim countries is not the reason they are not as economically developed as Western countries.

Ah! Well, that’s certainly true, or at least it’s not the main reason. I believe that NOT utilizing the talents of the female population does slow a society’s development in every area, though.

You know, when Finnpundit wrote, “Women’s non-participation in the economy and production of social needs is another reason for backwardness” I have to admit that I didn’t think twice about it. He’s right (in my opinion) about, “…maximizing the talents and productivity of 100% of society…” I wonder how many women in Iran and Saudi Arabia could have been great engineers, chemists, administrators?

I think you’re right about the social advance of equality coming only after a certain stage of economic development. In that case there’s something of a vicious circle going on: the lack of economic development slows down social advancement, even though that advancement would speed up economic development.

The question is, has Iran achieved sufficient economic development to allow the social advance of gender equality? I would say yes, despite the country’s problems with inflation and unemployment, but I could be wrong. If I’m right, though, then the repression of women is NOT due to economic factors but comes entirely from the religion and the culture.

In that case, being a little more progressive socially would cause a huge increase in resources. If total equality could be achieved today then the labor force would increase almost instantly. Starting in eight years or so the number of doctors, architects, etc. would also jump as more and more women entered the high level professions.

A free woman can contribute much more to society than one who’s kept in a cage…

I am addressing your cause in following.

There was accumulation of wealth from colonolialism and exploitation of labor.

Sure, there was but right now Muslim countries (at least Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar and somehow Iran) are wealthiest than the time that the US accumulated wealth from colonialism and exploitation of labor. I relativley pressed my opinion.

What do you mean by “first-wave feminism started during the nineteenth century and early twentieth century?” WHat did femininsm accomplish during that time?

You mention the 19th amendement; most Muslim countries allow women to vote.

As I addressed in my past post, the Industrial Revolution era was a major shift of technological, socioeconomic, and cultural conditions.

What did they accomplish was not just about getting right to vote! Right to vote was constitutional and legal side of it; on the other side they actually challenged gender oppression within their own culture and society whereas in some Islamic countries although women can vote, they are still under Islamic rules and traditions of stratification of power along lines of gender.

Muslim women are still oppressed by their own Islamic culture, traditions and laws. Just awareness can make a shift in the society.

I am saying that the United States and other Western countries managed to develop economically before women got equal rights. So women not having equal rights in Muslim countries is not the reason they are not as economically developed as Western countries. Also there are many non-Muslim countries that are “backward.”

While Western countries preach equal rights and education for women in developing countries, they exploit children and women labor in these countries.

How does this:

Industrialization and economic development came before women got their equal rights.

apply to this:

Women’s non-participation in the economy and production of social needs is another reason for backwardness.

The only way your post makes sense is if you’re saying that gender inequality in Islamic nations is the result of their lack of economic and industrial development, and accumulation of wealth.

I said that in response to
Jahanshah Rashidian’s original post where he wrote,”Women’s non-participation in the economy and production of social needs is another reason for backwardness.”

I am not saying what you should expect. I am saying let the people living in the Muslim countries take care of reforming their own countries. If those living in the West want to help, they should try to do something about the foreign policy of the U.S. and its allies that constanlty use military interventions as a way of solving problems and for taking control of the natural resoueces of other countries.

You keep bringing up economic/industrial development and accumulation of wealth as pre-requisites for equal rights in the West (we’ve discussed this before and you make a reasonable case). Can you please explain what your point is in reference to the Islamic countries that we’re talking about here?

It sounds as though you’re saying that we shouldn’t expect women to have equal rights in Iran and Saudi Arabia because those countries have not yet accumulated sufficient wealth, or aren’t sufficiently industrialized, etc. Is that what you’re saying?

I already stated that in most Muslim countries women have the right to vote. I don’t know why the Iraninan governmnet represses women, or any other group of people? I do know that if the United States decides to attack Iran, it will setback any rights women have now, just like what has happened in Iraq. THe Iraninan people are the ones that have to reform their own country.

Do you know why the United States, while preaching human rights and democracy, goes around engaging in regime change and supporting brutal dictators and kings that do its bidding?

Do you have an answer for my question above?

So why are women still repressed in the IRI? Is the country is not sufficiently developed economically, not sufficiently industrialized, or lacking in wealth?

If we study feminism movement (also known as the Women’s Movement or Women’s Liberation) history we would notice that first-wave feminism started during the nineteenth century and early twentieth century in the UK and the US while Industrial revolution occurred in the late 18th century and early 19th century and there were no accumulation of wealth in those western countries!

There was accumulation of wealth from colonolialism and exploitation of labor.

What do you mean by “first-wave feminism started during the nineteenth century and early twentieth century?” WHat did femininsm accomplish during that time?

You mention the 19th amendement; most Muslim countries allow women to vote.

Regarding Saudia Arabia, without the suppport of the United States, the royal family would have been out of power a long time ago.

Surgeons are usually men and they treat both genders. Funny part is if physician is male then somebody should accompany female patient!

it was only after there was economic development, the Industrial revolution and the accumulation of wealth that Western women eventually got their equal rights and participated in the economy.

If we study feminism movement (also known as the Women’s Movement or Women’s Liberation) history we would notice that first-wave feminism started during the nineteenth century and early twentieth century in the UK and the US while Industrial revolution occurred in the late 18th century and early 19th century and there were no accumulation of wealth in those western countries!
I should add the first-wave movement outcome was Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1919) in the US which it was a great victory.

So it wasn’t just about being just economically developed or being sufficiently industrialized! The Industrial Revolution era was a major shift of technological, socioeconomic, and cultural conditions. this major shift couldn’t happen if there were not open-minded people in leadership who listen to people and accept changes for their own people good. Don’t get me wrong, there were resistance and always there would be resistance to changes.

So why are women still repressed in the IRI? Is the country is not sufficiently developed economically, not sufficiently industrialized, or lacking in wealth?

In answer to your question, I should write an introduction at the first place. In many Islamic societies, there is a division of roles creating a woman’s space in the private sphere of the home and a man’s in the public sphere. (In early Islam era, because of economic reliance of woman on men, the Koran justifies that men should always be in charge over woman. so Muslims extended this viewpoint to nowadays) Still a woman’s primary responsibility is usually interpreted as fulfilling her role as a wife and mother.

Women are allowed to work in Islam, if their work is in adherence to Islamic principles, including the maintenance of modesty, and if it does not “affect other duties which cannot be neglected, such as her duty towards her children and husband, which is her foremost and basic duty. “Should a woman be in need, it is recommended that they work, such as the Quranic example of two female shephards” Qur’an 28:23.

Also Islam discourages social interaction between men and women when they are alone. In some Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, sex segregation has been or is strictly enforced. Even in countries where the sexes mingle socially, they generally remain segregated within the mosque.

Iran is not a developed or economically stabled or sufficiently industrialized country but as I earlier just we can’t justify women repression in lack of above items in country. it comes back to Islamic culture in these countries. In Iran, it’s a mixture of everything and at the end of day there is Islam and Muslim clergies who run the country. And no matter what, Islam sex segregation is ruling in Iran. I should say Iranian women is in better shape than their fellows in Saudi Arabia because Women in Iran can drive, vote and go out alone so the Iranian women movements which started earlier is continuing and we hope they could change the course and of course we support them.

I hope I answered your question.

Randal:

it was only after there was economic development, the Industrial revolution and the accumulation of wealth that Western women eventually got their equal rights and participated in the economy.

So why are women still repressed in the IRI? Is the country is not sufficiently developed economically, not sufficiently industrialized, or lacking in wealth?

In Islamic law, you could marry to them too!
Don’t confuse yourself with two different laws!

If there is a male physicians available, he should visit male patient so women too. specially for specialists in women, they should be women!

We write about whetever we like to write if you do have problem with them just get out. if you do want to know about our daily lives go ahead and find appropriate blog! is it really hard to understand that ususally bolggers write about one or some specifis topics?

They wear their Hijab! when it’s heavily physical treatment then they would rather to refer them to male physicians.