Saudi Arabia: Facts of the Kingdom.
Ok people…I just got done reading Robert Baer’s book: “Sleeping With The Devil”. Its time we go into and discuss one of the most controversial and enigmatic countries in the region. I would like to hear what people know about the country and what they have heard so those who don’t know, and would like to learn more, can. So, lets spill the beans. I’ll start first, I had a roommate in college whose father is a Saudi ambassador. Needless to say he was rather well off and happy to be in the states enjoying that wealth however the hell he wanted to. I guess the most interesting thing he told me was that the royal family, was more f-uped than the mob, ten times over. Is that true??? Im sure being the guardians of the Twin Holy Mosques gets your browny points with God, but I am wanting to get a more balanced view of Saudi. Any comments?
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Oh boy..
Before anything, they’re not the “twin” mosques.. they’re TWO holy mosques..
What your roommate said has a moderate amount of truth to it.. As being that corruption within the royals stems from years of different generation interlaced under one family title.. All fighting for a pile of sand..
I wouldn’t say more ****ed up than the mob, though..
Lou,
Your right and I realized the Two Holy Mosques after I submitted. My bad. And I also want to say that I realize that if anyone is reading this within the Kingdom, be careful and think before replying. I don’t want to put anyone at risk. I imagine as the prestige of this site grows, it will attract more…attention.
In any case, one of the points made by Robert Baer is that the corruption in Saudi Arabia is the result of greed in corporate America and Washington DC insiders.
He also says Abdullah is a sort of reformer but faces a lot of opposition. IS that true?
I wouldn’t say Corporate America alone, since it screws with everybody these days.. but it’s more of the US and the UK relations with Saudi over the years..
The royal family has been smoking out the rats and still you’d find a bad seed here and there, but What Robert said was true, Abdullah is much of a reformer.. He’s bound to find opposition in all cases..
What is disheartening to me and a shame for us all is that the leaders of our countries are entrenched in a kind of real politik that is completely Machiavellian and totally cyclical and seemingly unavoidable. When you enter into the realm of international public life, your hands get dirty.
Another one of Baer’s points was that if democracy was introduced, Wahabi Islam would sweep across the region and people would be subject to a Taliban style government in no time. So, yet again, it seems to be that the average person in the gulf has to choose between a rock and a hard place.
Corporate America is about the only decent, trustworthy entity in the world today. Why? Well, when you ask what is the role of America, or the UK, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or the UN, you get a thousand different answers, most of them in conflict with each other, as everyone has their own idea about what that role should be. These answers are often so bewildering, and the usual result is some sort of consensus which winds up satisfying only most people some of the time.
When you ask what is the role of a corporation is, you get one answer: to make a profit. Such a simple answer is so clearly understood that it is easy to get millions of people to work together in the most incredible harmony (probably the only instance of human harmony, ever). Corporations are therefore more trustworthy than any government, country, state, or religion, because they do what they say they want to do.
It would be so much better for the entire world if we all gave up cleaving to identities based on race, nationality or religion, and just focused on the unique, harmonious, productive and fulfilling promise inherent in our life-giving corporations.
I don’t know if the point of that last comment was an attempt at pointing to a sad irony or a sincere opinion based on a capitalist point of view, either way…The words “decent” and “trustworthy” are far from synonymous with the word “corporate”. True, the bottom line is the dollar, but thats the problem. Personally, there needs to be a paradigm shift in thinking and priorities if there is going to be a world left to plunder and burn up.
Don’t get me wrong, i’m all about being for business and so on, but the essence of a categorical acceptance of that philosophy is greed. That is nothing short of sin itself.
Chew on these words…”sustainable business”.
To equate the profit motive with greed is so simplistic as to border on the moronic. We owe everything to the profit motive. There is nothing in this world that is not sustained by it.
Corporations can be tainted, but they are never as tainted as states, charities or, religious organizations. What’s more, corporations work harder to correct mistakes, with more efficacy, than any other form of social construct.
But the easy, not-thought-out response is to always see corporations as something reprehensible. This is, to some extent, the residue of socialist thinking, which pervades Europe, and pervades Muslim countries even more so. However, it is mainly a form of juvenile and puerile thinking: an assessment made by people in immature, arrested development.
Your argument has some points but ultimately your reasoning is flawed and therefore your conclusions incorrect. Moreover, when someone insults my intelligence its very hard to take them seriously.
You assume that capitalism in its purest form is the best thing for everyone. Corporations are driven by the need for profit to satisfy shareholders. Duh.
But, when that drive upsets an irreplaceable ecosystem or devastates a local indigenous economy whats your response? Profit?
I’m afraid that you’re just another one of those right wingers who have no concept of moderation and balance. Like I said, sustainable business needs to be the new model.
Not all corporations are bad but there are some that commit criminal actions that result in the deaths and/or suffering of millons. Those who are not negatively affected by them rationalize, trivialize, or excuse the crimes.
Read this interview with John Perkins, author of “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251
Moreover, Finnpundit assumes that corporations and government are two separate entities. Far, far from the truth. They are entangled and joined at the hip at the highest levels.
Are you trying to show humorous remark here? Because, correct me if am wrong, a huge percentage of the world’s problems happen BECAUSE of Corporations..
it’s a word with letter C, and you know what’s in C? Capitalism, and anything similar to it in the views of corporates who would do anything just to get more in return.. Whether it helps the people, or who ever is paying more..
I don’t know i hope this is a misunderstanding, because i can’t believe am telling you about Life 101 here..
Corporations are not the problem: states are, and any ideologies that don’t prioritize the supremacy of free markets in society.
Capitalism continues to be the most benign form of socio-economic organization, as it constantly succeeds in lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty who had previously been mired in non-capitalistic systems.
Are you living on Mars?
Omid, i think Martians do exist and we have to acknowledge that..
However, Finnpundit..
Of course, you do know that money is sought by all means necessary.. So, if i run an alcohol business, damaging livers and being a mean old man, and i’d help the poor with that money, you’d support me?
Lou:
Well, I don’t know about the “mean old man” part, but how mean can you be if you’re gving money to the poor? Anyway, that doesn’t have anything to do with your business, and as for the rest, sure I’d support you.
You have a corner store selling alcohol: what does this do economically?
You pay taxes, so that benefits society as a whole. You probably have one or two employees, so you’re created jobs. Your store has to be maintained: more work for local electricians, plumbers, painters. Delivering your supplies means more business for the trucking company (more taxes, more jobs) more business for the brewery (more taxes, more jobs), more demand for the materials the brewery uses (sugar, grain, etc.) which means more money to farmers.
Want some more? You all use invoices and receipts which is more business for the printing company (along with the labels on the products). The alcohol comes in cans and bottles: more business for the manufacturers of those. Now they need more aluminum and glass: more work for the people in those industries.
All those workers and businesses pay taxes, of course, which means more revenue for roads, schools, hospitals.
Yes, that’s an “ideal” description: it rarely works perfectly, but it does work better than any other system the world has tried so far.
As for damaging people’s livers, that’s up to them. Too much of anything can be unhealthy, so please don’t dismiss capitalism because some folks choose to drink or smoke too much, or drive at unsafe speeds, etc.
Coming from a true capitalist.. The money’s source is corrupt, and its all corrupt even if i pay a hundred new mosques and churches.. What’s the difference between alcohol and drug money? one of them is legal and the other is not?
Am not speaking from a religious view, am far from it, am speaking from a moral and ethical point of view..
What’s the use of paying taxes if am causing:
- Depression : Yes Grumpy, as much as alcohol gives the first cheer a stroll, it can act as a depressant element to the brain.. Also the whole “letting go” phase that most drunk men and women go through because they had more alcohol than they should..
- Human anger gets aggravated by Alcohol, thus leading to family problems (domestic violence as a big example) and losing ties of friendships and family for the sake of one JD on the rocks..
- Alcohol can partially block the nerve that leads to Erection, there you can kiss your sex life good bye..
- The nausea and headaches that can grow to splitting miengrains for some people during a hangover, God, i hope these people know that their $20 is going to be in some poor man’s hands.. Their all heroes for that..
- Liver disease, need i say more?
- it can cause varicose veins in the stomach lining which may have been swelling up due to liver blockage to suddenly burst, and the bleeding can be very difficult to stop..
- Drinking & Driving.. I can be giving those who just run over a kid while drunk a badge for making it easy to pay my taxes and improve the country..
What if i sold drugs? Cigarettes? Hemp? Cocaine?
You’d still support me, Grumpy?
I mean, you already listed those reasons, and am just running them by you just to make sure of one fact..
Are you dismissing those for the sake it’s the people’s fault and you’re just doing your job as a hard working man who loves his country?
Where’s the love there?
You’re reasoning is flawed, way too far than i can try to make you snap out of..
All for the sake of earning that extra buck fifty.. Hope you’re really happy with that.. Because it’s the likes of you that capitalism has strayed from it’s moderate sense and caused inequality, lack of a safety net, the risk of too much power falling into the hands of the wealthy..
You’re a capitalist, due to what you believe in how money is earned, so you’d probably agree on..
- Unequal distribution of wealth..
- In a capitalist society the wealthy have disproportionate power to influence legislation which inevitably favors themselves, often at the expense of the less affluent. This also, all too often, results in the corruption of government officials, and increase of white-collar crime..
- Although the wealthy provide the means of developing the natural resources of a nation, they often contribute mightily to its pollution and degradation..
- Capitalism is prone to scandal and fraud, you can’t deny that in your sense of a brain..
I can go on and on on this..
Only to prove one point, what you support is flawed, it speaks of your character, and speaks loudly of your moral stand when it comes to blood money..
Just because Al Capone used to pay the taxes, doesn’t make him a good citizen.. or would you prefer to debate on this too?
Ha ha.. you made a funny..
Oh for crying out loud. That’s the lamest post I’ve seen from you, Lou, and that’s saying a lot.
First, let’s skip your rant about the evils of strong drink since (A) you’re not rational on the subject, and (B) it has nothing to do with the point: “it (capitalism) rarely works perfectly, but it does work better than any other system the world has tried so far.”
Next we toss out all the crap that assumes anyone who’d sell a legal product would also sell an illegal one. Not all Muslims are terrorists, right? Well, not all capitalists are crooks: it’s just the small percentage of extremists that give the whole system a bad name.
Next we toss out the crap that “the money’s source is corrupt” because the product is potentially harmful. In your lame-ass drunk driving example did it cross “your sense of a brain” that someone also sold him the damn car? Was the car salesman’s pay “blood money”? From the “moral and ethical point of view” of your swollen ego, what do you say about kitchen knives? They’ve often been used to commit murder, you know. And pens! Oh, my God, think of how many forgeries could have been prevented if not for the heartless capitalists selling evil pens to anyone with money!
Having trimmed away the garbage, what’s left? A boring rehash of how capitalism can be abused, like you think you’re the only one who ever noticed. What your post boils down to is that you don’t like capitalism, but you don’t suggest anything better. Very helpful, thanks. I said capitalism “does work better than any other system the world has tried so far” so if you want to argue with me you’ve got to name a system that works better. Is that so hard to understand?
You laughed at my suggestion that roads, schools, and hospitals are built with tax revenues. I guess that must be a Saudi joke that I don’t get: how are they built in the kingdom?
You really need to see someone.. Your brain is evolving to something i can’t speak of..
Grumpy, dear, it seems to me like you’d rather pick on one point and strike it as hard as you can, for the sake of you setting an argument.. While you’re a master in stripping words in their content out of their intended context..
If we thought in YOUR rational, then maybe it’s bad to have babies to begin with, since “a small percentage” of them are going to be suicide bombers and serial killers..
However, the whole idea behind my reply to you is to question ONE object’s validity in the long run.. For god’s sake man, even if we drink water way too much its bound to kill us.. It’s not one object against the other, it’s the result of many processes that led to that object, and then from there i discussed it’s validity..
Habla Espanol then? cause you can’t seem to comprehend normal text..
What’s your point in jumping from one aspect to another, and you didn’t even have the time to read my reply through and reply with something equal, but rather you apparently skimmed through it for the sake of taking a word out of its intended meaning..?
You’re claiming your rational, and i think one quote from you is enough to disprove that..
Try having a brain for once, they say it’s the hip thing around..
And don’t pull your whole “grumpy” act on this topic, and try to limit your personal feelings and speculations (which are already discredited since i saw your first replies in Rasha’s topic if you’d remember) and try giving me facts..
Try to talk with no reason for dumb terms that do you no good in serving your point, Grumpy..
I gave speculations on facts you yourself know of, and yet, you come back with snide remarks on how YOU think it’s faulty..
I beg of you, reason this with yourself and try to show yourself in a better form, because believe you me, your words are doing you no good at all..
“I guess that must be a Saudi joke that I don’t get: how are they built in the kingdom?”
Definitely not out taxes, and i can assure you there is no alcohol related since the government takes care of that alone.. too much of a job for them, but at least their making sure that people like you don’t get their money in the system..
Oh yeah, and one more thing.. I don’t know if you failed through History 101, but Capitalism does NOT have a small percentage of corruption or else the other C system (communism) did not oppose it.. Can you even deny that Communists and Socialists had better financial plans than your so called valid system?
“”Isn’t it a fact that, for instance, cholesterol lowering medications such as Lescol, Pravachol, Zocor, Vytorin, Crestor, and Lipitor etc. are virtual duplicates developed at very little actual cost in order to increase profits ? As soon as a drug has begun to run out its patent protection and becomes available as a generic, the drug company makes some minor change to the formula and obtains a renewed monopoly, consequently at higher price. Instead of stocking 10, 20, 40, 80 milligram sizes, they stock 20 and 80, if the doctor prescribes 10 you get half as many 20′s and cut them in half, etc. The V.A also gets better prices from the manufacturer through the economy of scale. Couldn’t a government single buyer do a better job of obtaining the best prices than the individual at the mercy of the “free market” ? Isn’t that a big advantage for a single payer system. whether capitalist or other ?”"
Speculate on that, provided by a true American.. If he’s not, and you are, then i shudder to think of what’s good out there..
Long rant for a small point. So, you finally stated your position?
Communists like who? The USSR, which collapsed? The Chinese, who are making fantastic economic progress by allowing capitalism? Look at the former Eastern Bloc countries: which ones had strong economies under Communism?
Socialists like who? Which Socialist economy has done more to lift people out of poverty than Capitalism?
You say, “try giving me facts.” Okay: After WWII the Japanese and Germany economies were totally shattered, yet two generations later they were economic powerhouses. What achieved that? Communism, Socialism, Capitalism?
You are completely dishonest:
That’s YOUR so-called reasoning: scroll back up and see how that was your position concerning alcohol.
Example, please.
So you’d rather the buyers were at the mercy of the government? That’s frightening. By the way, it’s considered good form to attribute quotations.
You STILL haven’t said how schools and hospitals are built in you country, but don’t be so sure that “that people like you don’t get their money in the system.” You do know that Saudi Arabia has billions invested in the US, don’t you?
Example A..
How can you strip something like that out of its context? Want to scale the pros and cons of cars and driving VS the pros and cons of drinking? Are you serious?
Example B..
As if you’re living back in the industrial revolution to find pens being used for forgery.. Again, want to compare the pros and cons of that with (let’s say) the adult movie industry? or drinking (again) if you may?
PLEASE.. Show me your rational there by taking these and comparing them to a serious issue like alcohol..
I swear, it’s like am talking to a 10 year old..
Ok that’s a bit too dumb, even for you Grumpy.. Capitalism helps the poor? Have you actually read the cons i showed a couple of posts ago?
You know, am starting to question if this is going anywhere.. Apparently since my words are being hit against a brick wall, call it your thick brain, then maybe i should just worry less about it..
And i don’t know if you’re a fan of reading, because for the past years, China has proven to be an exception in the capitalist global society from ONE aspect, how It is able to make money in external free markets while tightly controlling its internal economy.. Yet again, according to the UN’s last reports, China has a percentage of poverty that is still high in compare of it using the system..
Was communism the only reason why the USSR collapsed? are you friggin’ serious? what about the Political Stagnation and Corruption (that had to do more with defectors), or the communist Ideology of complete centralized planning (the didn’t give me money to the rich to make them richer, instead allowing them to be bribed away from what they believe).. Or Nationalism (50% of the population was not Russian, the non-Russian ethnic groups would fuel the break-up).. All this are huge factors compared to their financial plans that served everyone (hence communism as a term).. And yet, though it was corrupted, but it’s more aimed to the people than the capitalist approaches of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.. Can you deny the gap? or should i slap you around with the wallstreet journal?
Oh and i assume that you have the charts? Please, think of what you’re claiming with proof, not just rhetoric.. Saudi Arabia, as a government like i mentioned before, has nothing to do with raising national economy with whatever corruption you think is in it, or else it wouldn’t have such a small (still growing) economy.. Look at Dubai for instance, maybe you should question their boom with ours.. And allow me to tell you, that what Saudi individuals do as their own “private sector” investment in the state, from the royals to the high class society, it’s not even filtered in the system..
You know, Grump? This conversation was over from the first reply you posted.. I thought i could reason with your half-grown brain, but seems like your grumpiness is taking the best of you.. Go now and jump around, because i think i have better things to do to reason with someone who compares alcohol to pens..
You’re really one piece of work..
Now go ahead, prove your stupidity again.. I really can’t wait to read your coming reply..
No offense intended of course..