How to train teens to kill for Islam
You shouldn’t be here!
They are a volunteer based Iranian paramilitary force (Basiji) which is subordinate to the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution (Sepah-e Pasdaran). These guys are teen and very young and most of the time they are attending school (Intermediate/High schools or college). In Islamic Revolutionary Guards they brainwash to Islamic teachings and they are getting ready to fight for their religion. They will learn they should spare their life for their religion and they will get reward in heaven! At the end, these guys will be next-generation of Islamic terrorists. President Ahmadi Nejad was one of them and he still is. They had terrors in Iran and overseas.
Some of you would say, Islam is a religion and nothing is wrong with it but honesty these teachings are destructive for humanity and I couldn’t justify it with anything else but Islam itself. Don’t you believe?! Ok. Just go ahead and read Quran for yourself then you will find out how that God (Allah) is a killer and continually punish people and kill them! Specially it punish infidels (like me 
) so bad and it asks his follower to do so. Revolutionary Guard has a long history massacre in Iran .e.g. Forgotten Massacre of 1988 in Iran; Now they are passing their experience of violent terrors and brutal manners to youngsters.
We have held them accountable for their Islamic crimes and insanity and they will respond to it soon of late.
You should study science!
It’s not fun to take photo with arm’s explosion!
That guy in the poster killed himself like a suicider, you shouldn’t!
It’s not your way, your future is not in war and Islam!
Join the Conversation
Have you been to any other country in the world with an army? Have you seen the advertisements they have for recruitment purposes?
If you’re genuinely interested in de-militarizing Iran, you should probably write in Farsi. If you are only trying to demonize Iran and Islam, then you should continue writing in English, and you should continue to talk in this way about Iran, as if it is different in this regard from every other country in the world.
Hmmm. Are these kids killing for Iran or for “Islam”?
The person reponsible for the most number of deaths in the shortest span of time is Joseph Stalin, an atheist.
Read these articles about the contributions of the United States to Iran.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss17/booknotes-All.shtml
if is were not for the sake of these so-called brain-washed kids, saddam would occupy iran in few weeks as he had promised.
Suggest you to read this article of Mohsen Sazegara (a prominent opposition figure who once has been a senior member of Revolutionary Guards):
http://www.forward.com/articles/what-was-once-a-revolutionary-guard-is-now-just-a/
These are very disturbing images. Like these and other stories out there, there is little doubt that the Iranian government is grooming its young for war. Ahmadinejad clearly expects the end times any time now and wants his people to be ready. During the war with Lebanon, Iranian mullahs had recruiting sessions for people to go on suicide missions against the Israelis.
The Iranian military loves to boast about its new weapons that it creates. Whether its missiles, tanks, or restless young “martyrs” ready to go to heaven when the infidel comes.
There is no doubt that if a war broke out among Iran and the US that Iran would send legions of “martyrs” strapped with explosives to the front. The ultimate smart bomb.
Iran is not a democratic place nor should it parade itself as one. Its a farce. All of you know that the power lies with the Mullahs and anything that opposes or seems to go against the will of them is clearly against the will of God.
So where does this go? What the hell is going to happen? In the US, unfortunately we have to have a war every ten years so all the money and toys we have get played with–we wouldn’t want them getting dusty now would we ?
Frankly it makes me sick. I feel like I am going to vomit when I see world leaders interact the way they do. Moreover, when they go to war in the name of some just cause.
What better cause than that of God? Absolute hypocrisy when the mullahs and sheikhs propound this idea of Jihad. They take the easy way out. Why not use the brain God gave you and struggle, figure out how to get along and stop this sacrilege?
Of course if we did have peace, what would we do with all of our guns and C4? Such a complex and deep problem requires Nobel winners to figure out.
Why single out Iran for it?
Will Fariborz make a post about Uganda’s Lord’s Resistance Army recruiting children as foot soldiers to install Biblical Law in that country?
Obviously not, this self-hating Persian extremist has some serious prejudices against Islam and Muslims, praising those who call for nuking Mecca and Medina in the process.
If Fariborz wants to be taken seriously, perhaps he/she should start critiquing other groups that employ similar tactics instead of singling out Islam for his/her twisted agenda to kiss up to neo-cons. You know these types of people would give up their Persian culture to be more Western.
The IRI is a Unique Monster
The IRI is best described as an absolute totalitarian regime with no human characteristic. The Mullahs maintain their „divine” rule by any price, any sacrifice, even any thousands of infanticide-sacrifices.
For justifying their crimes, Mullahs enjoy a significant number of supporters in all milieus —from the sold intellectuals to sheep-docile followers of Friday-prayers, from radical Islamists to unconscious non-Iranian Muslims, from the international media, to young people of the third world with phobia of anti-West…
The IRI is a new monster with all devouring characters.
The world must file legal charges against the IRI because of its wanton violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: for their crimes against s against children who were brainwashed to kill themselves or for those who were killed by IRI’s squad deaths because refused to bow.
Danial, does the LRA have 50,000,000 under its control? I leave out 20+ million for conservative reasons.
50 million?
Why do so many exiled Iranians engage in serious hyperbole. That’s like saying the Taliban have 27 million in country (even though no one liked them).
It’s not all about numbers Omid.
If Fariborz wants to be taken seriously, perhaps he/she should start critiquing other groups that employ similar tactics instead of singling out Islam for his/her twisted agenda to kiss up to neo-cons.
I actually like it when Danial uses multicultural relativism as a prerequisite in arguments.
Multicultural relativism, after all, automatically justifies all US foreign policy actions, since if we are to measure our actions in relation to others, then everything is permitted, and the strongest wins.
Finnpunkt brought a good argument.I think, this is also true for Muslim communities in the West.
Islamists by seperatong these communities from the rest of society in fact help some right-wing local authorities to ghettoise the Muslim communities.
I have to agree with Jahanshah on this.
I think those who choose to seperate themselves should go back to their failed Muslim states that they themselves fled from in the first place.
I think this is a really solid and relevant point, Omid. Morally, I wouldn’t say that there is much difference between the LRA and Iran’s government, so to that extent, I can agree with Danial. The difference, however, is access to resources and the ability to mobilize foot soldiers on the international stage. For example, the LRA, unlike Iran’s government, does not have access to state-owned media to cultivate human rights abuse on the international stage, and enmity against entire communities (including foreign ones with which they have no organic conflict) by painting them in a thoroughly unredemtive light.
yaman:
This is not ad!
Esra’a:
Yes, these kids are practicing to protect Islam and they will kill for “Islam”.
RandallJones:
Which religion is responsible for the most number of deaths in 1400 years?
Mohammad Memarian:
I suggest you to read that article very carefully.
Above paragraph is in your recommended article which Mohesn won’t explain why did the model for army change dramatically? Why some people in power wanted to dissolve the Iranian army at the first place? Did you ever heard about it?
They couldn’t do it but they weaken the Iranian army from inside out. They executed army leaders to take over power! and make their Islamic Army!
And Saddam wasn’t blind!
“The difference, however, is access to resources and the ability to mobilize foot soldiers on the international stage. ”
Dude, you really think Iran can prove a match towards anyone?
For God’s sake, they were punked by the Taliban when Iran massed 200k troops on the Afghan border in response to the murder of 13 Iranian diplomats.
Pakistan and Turkey can obliterate Iran’s capability EASILY.
Omid:
They are expecting one. Some extremist Islamists in power are suggesting “for having a great nation we should appreciate war”! and they suggest for a unify nation under control we should have one. Also there are some who disagreements too.
Oh boy, even now they would love you if you’re ready to register there
Even Iranians inside of Iran who disagree with their Islamic rulings are infidels and they are ready to fight/kill/beat/terror innocent people.
Finnpundit:
Right! I think I wouldn’t have problem if the best culture (relatively) suggests their best quality but I am sure I do have problem with a corrupted ideology like Islam which at the best, wants to send people to heaven.
Jahanshah:
Islamic ideology suggests Muslims are far better than others so it makes what they do.
First of all I should say that this page (post) in soome ISPs inside Iran is censored!
Situation make people to show something that they really are not!
Everyone would turn to a soilder if situation want them to be! Many scholars contributed on Iran-Iraq war because of their land and some may say for Islam! (we all know how many they were).
It makes no difference while Iran is an Islamic country! so both (Islam and Iran) were twisted as a goal!
I give you examples: we all know many philosophers were soilders in the wars! should I mention? OK, Plato, Socrates, Nietzsche, Jean-Paul Sartre, and so many others I cant remember now, who join the army when their land was under attack! Some were religious and some were not!
But at the end I dont know what to say! my comment is not enough to say that Basij dont raise some youth to kill themselves and I dont want to agree with this article completely!
Fariborz,
You ask, “Which religion is responsible for the most number of deaths in 1400 years?”
I am guessing because you use the time of “1400 years” that you think it is Islam. You would have to back this up by listing those killed by Muslims, those killed by Christians. I suspect that it would be Christians that have killed more because Christians killed in the Old World and the New World (the Americas).
Even though historians often blame the Church for the vast number of deaths that have occurred throughout history, the matter of fact is wars were fought for natural resources and power over land. The excessive violence and cruelty used is due to human nature; you can see that the atheist Joseph Stalin was excessively violent and cruel as well.
If you look at modern times, the United States and its allies are responsible for more deaths and destruction of property, than anything done by Muslim terrorists. Let us not forget also that the United States had recruited and trained Muslim extremists to fight its proxy war against the Russians; this facilitated the collapse of the Soviet Union. The United States became the number one super power in the world, in the meanwhile, Afghanistan was left in ruins and millions had been killed.
Omid T,
You wrote, “These are very disturbing images. Like these and other stories out there, there is little doubt that the Iranian government is grooming its young for war. Ahmadinejad clearly expects the end times any time now and wants his people to be ready.”
What are you talking about that “Ahmadinejad clearly expects the end times?” Don’t you watch the news about how Israel and the United States want to attack Iran to prevent it form having nuclear power. The U.S. government has tried to fake some evidence that the Iran is responsible for all the violence in Iraq. I would like to point out that Iran probably has some of its people in Iraq, but they are not responsible for most of the violence and chaos in Iraq, it is the United States and its allies that are the most responsible. Israel has some its people in Iraq, but the mainstream press and government are not discussing this.
The United States’ record of “spreading democracy and human rights around the world”, is probably one of the mains reasons Iran is developing nuclear power.
Venezuela is also training its people to prepare for an attack because it has been alleged that the U.S. government had something to do with the attempted coup against the president, Hugo Chavez. Remember when American televangelist Pat Robertson had suggested that Hugo Chavez be assassinated for the country’s oil?
Chavez has called President Bush the devil and worse names. So it is not only Iran that looks at the American government as the Great Satan.
Randall Jones
What are you talking about that “Ahmadinejad clearly expects the end times?
Clearly you haven’t paid attention to what these many Iranian posters have been discussing.
And that’s probably because in your Anti-American zeal, your ear has become deaf to anything that isn’t about America, or can’t be flipped into a discussion about America.
Try to listen to what these Iranians are saying.
Finnpundit,
Omid T is the firs person I have heard say this about Ahmadinejad. Omid T has “Iran/USA” written next to his name; I am guessing he is living in the United States. He is doing something similar to what the American political left is doing. They blame U.S. involvement in the Middle East on Christian evangelists who want the Apocalypse to happen soon. So Omid T is just repeating this but saying it about the Muslim Ahmadinejad.
i don’t believe religion is the root of all the violence, it is greed and hunger for power that is driving most of the violence in the world.
Finnpundit, are you deaf to the Christian fundamentalists who want the Apocalypse to happen soon?
I think his main point is that it goes both ways. The Christian fundamentalists he’s relating extremism to are the ones who want to nuke Iran and who consider Islam/Muslims to be the “Great Satan.” It was also Jesus who apparently told Bush to bomb Iraq. So it’s pretty hilarious to see everyone ignore/deny such things and focusing solely on Islam and Muslims as if we’re ruining your lives or something. Try to wake up a little and see members of your own community who pretty much resemble our terrorists (except they dress in suits! How civil.)
Secondly, I believe he is American and is criticizing American policies/its certain beliefs. In nowhere did he state that he hates America and wishes the worst for it, which would be anti-American. Saying “America did some bad things” and criticizing some of its people/policies does not make him an anti-American. It makes him someone with an opinion different than yours which you should actually try to refute every once in a while instead of pointing fingers and saying “omg, a hater.” We don’t call you anti-Iranian when you criticize Iran, do we? Do we call you a hateful racist or a bigot? No, and we expect the same treatment if we find hypocrisies within the comments who refuse to acknowledge the fact that extremism is everywhere regardless of your religion and location.
except, also, that they do not make snuff films where people are beheaded, they do not kill babies for holy whore’s at allah’s bunny ranch, they do not shoot naked kids in the back (as in Beslan), they don’t cause dozens of deaths in riots over cartoons, they don’t blow up in airport doorways, etc. etc. etc.
AND – they represent a much, much smaller percentage of Christians than supporters of terrorism represent in Islam.
Other than that, it’s exactly the same thing LOL
What did Jesus tell the UN? To make unprecedented profits off of Saddam’s genocide and then get upset when Bush cuts off their blood money? You don’t see many Kurds asking for Saddam back. You don’t see many Shi’ites asking for Saddam back. These days you don’t even see as many Sunnis who wish he were still in charge. Of course, that’s only the majority of the Iraqis. Better that they endure genocide under Saddam and then under his children, than that they get an opportunity to vote. Allah forbid!
The extremism in Germany in the 1930′s was a bit more dangerous than the extremism in, say, Bolivia. Similarly, the extremism in Islam today is more dangerous than the extremism of Pat Robertson. All Germans may not have been Nazis during WW2, but all of Germany had to suffer to defeat Nazism. Islam had better make sure that they don’t let their extremists put them in the same position that Nazis put Germany in.
Nah, your suit-wearing extremists just send a bunch of kids in army clothes to blow shit up from afar with the occasional rape fest. They’re very interested in sexual activities hence Abu Ghraib and humiliating physical torture at Guantanamo. Congressman John Murtha is also pretty disgusted at how innocent civilians are being treated in Iraq. Maybe you should talk to him about the Iraqis who were murdered in cold blood.
This is not about the UN, nor is it about Saddam. This is about your president claiming to follow orders from a religious figure to attack another nation.
Sounds a lot like the terrorists that you love to blame so much for the rest of the world’s ills.
Killing for Jesus vs. Killing for Allah
Does anyone really sense a huge difference? I mean except for the part where the fundamentalist nationalists cry about their feelings getting hurt because someone criticized their petty foreign policies. Randal you should apologize to these sensitive champions for doubting their country’s intentions in our region.
Knock knock. It’s captain newsflash. The media you and much of your country relies on are for the most part apologists for these people. You think networks like CNN and Fox News are going to admit that such people walk freely amongst you? What about coverage concerning recent KKK activities? I don’t see that on the news, even if they still hold fundraisers, events, conferences, and rallies which hundreds if not thousands of people attend. Hateful racists galore – but why not focus on 5 Muslims terrorists and claim that 1.4 billion of them are exactly like that?
Amazing that you just fall for it, not realizing the simple fact that we are never given a chance to represent ourselves the way we deserve to be represented: in an honest and objective manner. We are sick of being treated the way you are stereotyping us in this blog, with words like “the majority.” It’s not the majority. In fact a huge and growing percentage of Iranian youth aren’t even religious or supporters of their government’s activities. But you never see their side of the story presented, and claim to be the victim, but really the only thing you’re a victim of is fear-mongering propaganda full of one-sided racist stereotypes.
The majority of Muslims, Arabs, and Iranians are not what you stereotype us to be, whether you believe it or not. We actually live here and we know it more than someone sitting in an entirely different continent claiming to know our vast majority better than we do. The heart of the matter is that hundreds of thousands of people are facing or have faced bloodshed in the hands of dirty politics and yet the USA suffers a great deal from Islamaphobia for reasons that the mainstream media overestimates too much. Bad foreign policies and a president who says “God made me do this” is as bad as these terrorists ESPECIALLY if you have one of the world’s biggest militaries to do whatever you please to do no matter what the UN or the international courts say.
Randal provides a side of the story that you almost seem willing to deny. I have yet to see people actually refuting these arguments instead of just saying, “shit we are angelic heroes it’s the Muslims you should be hating!”
I would like you to refute all of his claims that he has made about the USA supporting dictatorships as well as attacking other nations despite it not posing a direct threat to the USA. I don’t want you to compare who’s worst; I want to see you admit it the way all Muslims and Arabs and Iranians on this site do, making you believe that we are the only “wrong doers” while you run around like a bunch of angels with no crimes at all.
Extremism exists on both sides – that is a fact, and you have no excuse to deny it, as it welcomes racism and justifies the extremism that represents your side of the story. There’s a bunch of people out there who really want Iran nuked and who actively advocate for the ending of the “Muslim threat” by way of elimination (death.) And really if you just dismiss these people as the small 5%, then that is how much our terrorists represent, the only difference is news coverage and their theatrical script of Good vs. Evil
We Arabs alone are at least 350 million in the world and clearly the great majority are not guilty of this shit, so stop treating us like we are and grow enough balls to admit your own hypocrisies.
“Don’t you believe?! Ok. Just go ahead and read Quran for yourself then you will find out how that God (Allah) is a killer and continually punish people and kill them! Specially it punish infidels (like me ) so bad and it asks his follower to do so.”
The above quote only reflects your mindset, and not the Quran or what it commands. You rationalise the Quran verses according to your own logic ignorant of its context, meaning and setting.
You obviously have a bone to pick with your government and if a boy accidently slipped on the road you would naturally blame Islam – very similar to the mindset that would blame “Israel” for any problem.
The problem is not with “Islam” , but with you!
Remove the mullahs, and have people with your mindset wouldnt make the place any better.
You ask your audience to read the Quran to discover that Allah is a “killer”. I ask you to read a book about constructive critism and selective quoting, maybe then your article will be worth reading.
my comments are barred?
no that went through, shit, i just typed out about 300 words which got lost – have to reply later i guess
Castorp wrote,
Yes, they have. Many Western men go to third world countries on what are euphemistically called “sex tours” to commit sexual and violent acts against children and women.
What about all the school shootings that occur in the United States. There have also been students caught in the planning stages of massacring classmates and teachers or setting off bombs, but it doesn’t get a lot of media attention.
The West has been through two world wars and it has been engaging in regime change and supporting brutal dictators and kings that do its biddings. There have been many atrocities committed during these wars and military interventions.
Regarding the riots, there were agent provocateurs that were involved in this because you had secular countries like Syria in which these riots occured.
Castorp wrote,
Why did you leave out that the United States had helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities? The Iraqis have become the scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy. You talk about what you see or don’t see, but you are not getting the full picture since the mainstream media doesn’t provide it. Many Iraqis hated the former U.S. puppet Saddam Hussein, but they also don’t like having their country bombed, the infrastructure and their homes destroyed and hundreds of thousands of their family members killed, and not having real sovereignty over their country.
What every single person in the West has done is not equivalent to what is being done by organized groups in the name of Islam. The sporadic and unorganized school shootings get at least as much media attention as they merit (maybe more) but, in no way, present a threat on the scale of worldwide Islamic fascism. It’s apples and oranges.
The US didn’t help Saddam into power as even the most cursory glance at a history book would show you. Saddam and his Baath party were Soviet clients while Iran under the Shah was the American client. As far as “supporting” him while he was at war with Iran, Kissinger summed up most American policy best when he said that it’s a shame that both regimes can’t lose. Saddam’s arms came overwhelmingly from Russia and France, with China coming in at a distant third. Many Germans resented being bombed during WW2, but the necessity to get rid of Hitler was more important, quite frankly. Most Iraqis think they’re children have a better chance for a future now, then they did under Saddam – and the ones who don’t are called Sunnis. Sunnis remain a minority in Iraq and they are finally beginning to grasp the implications.
Iraqis may prefer to have Saddam go away peacefully without a struggle, just as many Germans did with Hitler, but to act as if that were a realistic option is a pretense and a ruse. The fact remains that you prefer a genocidal maniac and his children to murder and oppress as they see fit to letting Kurds and Shi’ites (the majority, in other words) to get a chance to vote.
As for Esra’a's lengthy boilerplate about Islam being the victim (ha!) more than the oppressor, I will have to respond to that later.
Ewww. Castorp’s posts are so embarrassingly predictable. A typical example of his mindset being is fighting for victimhood and claiming that others are doing the same when no one said Islam is the victim, but rather presented another point of view which he surprisingly never addressed. Oh well. That’s right-wing propaganda for you in a nut shell folks
Shallow thread. I recommend that you scroll up and read what Hashim has to say. I personally can’t stomach Castorp’s ignorant and self-serving posts any further, but I have to point out the obvious to him:
Ah, history. I was beginning to doubt whether you can read or not, but I’ll try my chances anyways: 1984. Rumsfeld’s visit to Iraq. Iran-Iraq war and the U.S’s financial support. Look it up.
If too lazy, here’s some research:
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war
Haha, there’s even a picture of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam’s hands! Let’s see you try and deny this fact.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
I guess this is how the USA portrays its interest and care for innocent Iraqis: by taking advantage of them. I’m sure their soldiers there are weeping each time innocent people are bombed to oblivion.
If you’re such a fan of history smart boy, let’s see you refute these.
Here’s one last chronology article:
Read lots of it in detail here:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php
Bet you’re not the one LOLing now smart boy. You’ve proved yourself incapable of this discussion.
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php
I said that we didn’t put Saddam into power and nothing you posted refutes that in any way. Saddam had been in power for quite some time in 1984, so basically rather than address the fact that the US had nothing to do with putting Saddam in power, you set up a straw man argument. Rumsfeld met with Saddam, just like we’re meeting with North Korea right now. That doesn’t mean that we “put them in power”, it means we are trying to rein them in.
I notice you also don’t try to refute that Russia, France, and China all gave far, far more military support to Saddam. We didn’t want Saddam to lose to Iran, any more than we wanted Stalin to lose to Hitler. That doesn’t mean we put either Saddam or Stalin in power. We had nothing to do with either’s accession to power. To conflate a handshake with putting someone is typical lefty deceptive innaccuracy in a nutshell. Nice try though.
Teehee he emotionally responded already. Here’s a thought, princess: Empowering Saddam is just as bad as putting him into power especially if said empowerment was during unjustified wars. The USA was supplying him with arms and aiding one of the Middle East’s most tragic wars. I don’t see the USA stopping for a second and going “what about those innocent lives that we are destroying?”
It basically attacked a “threat” that wasn’t there in the first place and if there, a threat that they helped create.
Your post doesn’t satisfy me, it only proves that the USA got involved for its own interest and private gains on the expense of millions of other innocent individuals. So much for human rights, morality, and setting a “democratic” example to the world. While terrorists are threatening and heartless, at least they don’t kill millions of people at the same time during the same time period and using the world’s most sophisticated ammunition to further their own status with a complete disregard for the millions of corpses their inhumane and in many ways illegal actions resulted in.
Murad seems to argue from this bizarre notion that the US should never have enemies. Perhaps that’s a sign of the benign nature of America that people all over the world form some sort of nutty vision of America as a paternal entity.
In any case, it’s better to assume that most Mideasterns are enemies of the United States: it clears up a lot of misunderstanding.
That’s not what he’s saying. That’s not what Randal is saying either. With completely missing both of their arguments, you don’t seem to believe that the USA violated international law and ignored the world’s concerns (especially the UN’s) when they attack so-called “threatening” nations.
Really were there any Iraqis in the USA? No. Did Iraq threaten to attack the USA? No, especially since they’ve been allies throughout all of Iraq’s massive war crimes, including the use of chemical weapons on Iranians and Kurds and massacring millions. The USA didn’t seem to care about its alliance as long as its goals and gains were being fed.
Well according to many Americans, this appears to be true. Baseless assumptions = no thinking required. Also feeds nationalism. Win-win situation.
WHEN IN DOUBT, ATTACK ARABZ!!! YEEHAW
All countries have threats. Even Norway has threats. I consider the USA to pose a strategic and military threat to my Gulf region, that does not mean that I would justify an attack against it and its innocent people. That is the difference between you and me. Human life should be valued, the US government does not agree that our lives are just as valuable as theirs.
In other words, if America accepts the fact that Saddam is in place and works with him nations always do with major regional players, then America is at fault for the suffering of the Iraqi people and muslims are the innocent victims. But if America persues the only other option, and tries to get rid of him in the only way possible, America is at fault and muslims are the innocent victims. Talk about win-win!
Gee, maybe if muslims were to actually take responsibility for the culture that created Saddam and the Ba’ath party and for the Sunni-Shi’ite carnage going on now, some progress might be made. Of course, blaming Zionists and Americans is so much easier – and safer too – in many parts of the muslim world. Oh no, it couldn’t be the pure and wonderful Dar-al-Islam! It must be those sneaky infidel neocons!
LMAO!
Good luck making progress with that big chip on your shoulder and your addiction to scapegoating others. The Islamic world is crippling itself with its own self-pity and unwillingness to do anything about its own internal problems. That’s 90% of the problem. You take care of that and you might find out that America and the big bad infidel world out aren’t the monsters you portray them to be. But that might take some hard work and some guts. Better to just let the problems within Islam fester and play the victim. How truly pathetic.
I no longer find it surprising that Castorp resorts to irrelevance instead of refuting any of the arguments at hand.
So, Randal and Murad, I suggest you put in the effort into someone who actually has reading and debate skills. This guy appears to be a lost cause.
True, I find it quite said though because he doesn’t see the irony in blaming Islam and Muslims on everything without seeing the direct comparison with some of the Muslims who blame Zionists and the US on everything. Like Hashim said, there’s no difference between either misinformed mentalities. Both are equally ignorant and disturbing.
I am off to spend time in a thread that is actually worth it.
With completely missing both of their arguments, you don’t seem to believe that the USA violated international law
Please cite the clause of this supposed “international” law. That’s right. You can’t, since there isn’t any.
and ignored the world’s concerns (especially the UN’s)
Two-thirds of the UN’s membership consists of undemocratic nations, so the UN is hardly a representation of the world.
when they attack so-called “threatening” nations.
But these nations threatened and made war on the US.
Did Iraq threaten to attack the USA?
Not only did Iraq threaten, but it also attacked the US, several times, over the course of twelve years following the Gulf War. In fact, it was these missile firings which essentially annulled the armistice of 1992, thus giving legitimacy for the resumption of war in 2003.
Finnpundit, please do not answer the questions you give me. “That’s right, you can’t” – try to grow up a little.
Here is some information to enlighten you:
Secondly, they appear to be going against their own laws too:
(from Murad’s source)
Here’s another article which I love to see you refute point by point: INVADING IRAQ WOULD VIOLATE U.S. AND INTERNATIONAL LAW
“Made war on the US,” what is this, the 5th grade? Mommy that big boy gave me a booboo! Off with his head!
Where did Iraq threaten the USA, can you show a direct relation with it and 9/11? Did you see any Iraqi military in the USA that was “threatening” or “disturbing” national security?
What incidents? Can you tell me how many people actually suffered due to these “missile attacks”? Was there an actual war that occurred within the USA due to invading Iraqi forces?
Don’t tell me 9/11 – the passengers were supposedly Saudi, aided by Afghan and Pakistan-based Al Qaida officials. Not Iraqis. Not Saddam. What other incident happened in the course of this 12 “tragic” years for the USA where Iraq apparently threatened your security?
The rights group said the United States “continued to deny international recognized rights to people arrested in the context of the ‘war against terrorism.’ Thousands were detained from the war in Afghanistan in defiance of international law.”Where did Iraq threaten the USA
Iraq fired missiles at American airplanes. That’s an act of war; furthermore, it annulled the armistice, legitimizing the resumption of warfare in 2003.
Who died? Can you tell me how many people actually suffered due to these “missile attacks”? Was there an actual war that occurred within the USA due to invading Iraqi forces?
These points are totally immaterial to the argument, reflecting your personal criteria.
Whoops, here’s the complete version:
The rights group said the United States “continued to deny international recognized rights to people arrested in the context of the ‘war against terrorism.’ Thousands were detained from the war in Afghanistan in defiance of international law.”
AI is not an authority on international law. Unlawful combatants are clearly defined in the context of the Geneva Conventions. Furthermore, those Conventions are not law: they are simply a treaty calling for certain guidelines in conduct.
Please read up on the matter, before venturing into jurisprudence.
Where did Iraq threaten the USA
Iraq fired missiles at American airplanes. That’s an act of war; furthermore, it annulled the armistice, legitimizing the resumption of warfare in 2003.
Who died? Can you tell me how many people actually suffered due to these “missile attacks”? Was there an actual war that occurred within the USA due to invading Iraqi forces?
These points are totally immaterial to the argument, reflecting your personal criteria.
I should have responded earlier but im on vacation and only have limited access. Randall, I’m afraid you do not know the full extent of how much Ahmadinejad has riding on the return of the Imam Mehdi. HE seriously wants it bad and believes that it is only have a major battle with the infidels that it will happen. Or is it before? Anyway, prophecy, war and martyrdom are all very important ingredients in trying to comprehend the Iranian leadership’s psyche.
Do the Iranian let their colors show more and do they wear their emotions on their sleeve? You bet. Now, does the far right have similar outlooks? You would be naive to say no. DO they form their policies around it like the Iranians? Not so much. That said I am not a leftist or a rightist, just an optimistic realist.
Randall, I’m afraid you do not know the full extent of how much Ahmadinejad has riding on the return of the Imam Mehdi.
This was my earlier point.
Now, does the far right have similar outlooks? You would be naive to say no. DO they form their policies around it like the Iranians? Not so much.
Agreed. It is just ludicrous to think that the religious right has as much power in the US as Islamists in Iran. They simply cannot be compared, no matter how much you want to push multicultural relativism as a justification.
Even Bush’s religious comments are a mere trifle compared to what is being said in Iran. The main difference is that Bush still operates within a secular Constitution, one that is very clear about the separation of church and state. The same simply cannot be said of Iran, no matter how hard Randall Jones might hope.
“Which religion is responsible for the most number of deaths in 1400 years?”
Marxism.
Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot between them killed several tens of millions.
Omid T, you wrote wrote,
Can you tell me which country has invaded more countries in the last century, Iran or United States?
Can you tell me which country is the number one seller of weapons (even to unstable regions), the United States or Iran?
I’ll give you a hint, it has the initials of U, S, and A.
Omid T.
Actually I am not making argument to say CHristianity is more violent than Islam, or any other type of comparison.
My point is that some atheists and and relgious moderates like to blame religion for the violence around the world. They do this so they can avoid their responsibility to try to do something about what their governmnet is doing.
While people have many freedoms in the United States, we have not figured out how to stop out government and corporations from committing criminal acts in other countries.
Oops! a comment I attributed to Omid T, was actually said by Finnpundit. But Omid T did say something similar so I will repeat my questions to both of them.
Can you tell me which country has invaded more countries in the last century, Iran or United States?
Can you tell me which country is the number one seller of weapons (even to unstable regions), the United States or Iran?
I’ll give you a hint, it has the initials of U, S, and A.
Castorp,
Here is an article about
“Regime Change: How the CIA put Saddam’s Party in Power”
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html
Here is an article about how the United States sold weapons and gave false intelligence to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292
Castorp,
is a history of the relationship between Iraq and the United States, inclulding the fact that the U.S. sold Saddam Hussein chemical weapons, knowing that Saddam Hussein had used them before.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17891.htm
Here is a film on YouTube made by Barry Lando (former “60 minutes” producer) about the relationship between the U.S. and Saddam Hussein.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeY05iS5iv0
Randal I am not sure why you bother; these people are not into facts. They’ll only listen if it reflects their fear-mongered stereotypes.
For example, Finn hasn’t yet explained how Iraq was attacking the USA for a duration of 12 years. He hasn’t provided any resources or historical chronology from various different citations on how big of a threat Iraq posed to the USA. He doesn’t even explain where and how these “airplanes” were attacked. When did it take place and how many airplanes went down? How many people got killed in the process? If it was within Iraq, then Iraq has every right to attack an invading force because the USA does that all the time without the forces being in their country to begin with. How very just, civil, and logical of them.
Please people: less whining and more refutations of what happened, which has yet to be provided.
Murad,
I am not sure if you live in the United States, if you did you would be aware that the Meida is filled with interviews with people with law degrees, PHDs, and title of “Expert on Islam,” who talk the same way Castorp and Finnpundit do.
Finnpundit you asked,
Here is a list of the U.S. war crimes during the first invasion of Iraq, written by Ramsy Clark.
http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm
You are aware that Clark had worked for the U.S. Department of Justice ?
The list is long; I’ll just mention one of the U.S. violations of the treaties of the Geneva Convention regarding harming civilian populations
“The United States intentionally bombed and destroyed civilian life, commercial and business districts, schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, shelters, residential areas, historical sites, private vehicles and civilian government offices”
Im not sure what exactly the point of this thread was and Randall you don’t need to tell me what the US does or has done around the World. No doubt there is a lot of dirty work attributable to the US.
I guess my position is that this path that Iran is headed down is kind of new to date. One can always argue that one country or one nation is always or has been more dangerous or conspiratorial in its history but it cannot be argued that this Iranian regime is on a mission inspired by their messianic/apocalyptic version of Shi’a Islam.
My fellow countrymen in Iran and my fellow countrymen in the US are headed down a very scary collision course. Both nations need to take the “dumb ass cap” off and stop this non-sense before there is a huge war and they both realize that Imam Mehdi, Jesus or whoever they expect to come–wont and isn’t, or already has (whole different thread).
How vein for man to think he can force the hand of God.
Omid T,
My point is that it is not religion that is the driving force behind conflicts.
Iran and Iraq have already collided. Was it really over religion or were there other factors?
Both the United States and Iranian media demonize the other. In the United States we have democracy and freedom of speech, but how effective will Americans be in preventing the United States from getting itself involved in another war?
Randall Jones: Ramsey Clark is a noted anti-war activist. The material you’ve posted are his charges, none of which have been proven in a court of law. Therefore, to speak of crimes is ridiculous: you’re only talking about charges, and from a very biased source.
As to Saddam’s acts of war against US jets, this site has more info:
http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/iraq_nofly.html
Though no planes were downed, legally speaking the armistice of 1992 was null and void. It’s a technicality, yes, but the US had full legal right to resume hostilities in 2003.
Saddam was counting on being able to stretch the limits, little by little. He finally miscalculated, as the US was actively looking for an excuse to get rid of him.
Salama:
Damn how come we are always stuck with the usual rightwing fundies in this site?
Why are you so upset at hearing an alternative point of view? Whether you agree or not, such views can only broaden understanding.
Esra’a:
Here’s another article which I love to see you refute point by point: INVADING IRAQ WOULD VIOLATE U.S. AND INTERNATIONAL LAW
I’ve had time to read the whole thing. The piece was written in 2002, before Bush went to Congress to get Congressional approval. Thus Bush’s actions were not a violation of US law.
As to international law, Cohn conveniently leaves out the fact that the Gulf War armistice specifically cited conditions, which were later broken by Saddam. Thus, the Security Council resolution for the Gulf War automatically came into force.
It’s not surprising Cohn left that little detail out. It torpedoes her whole argument.
Lord Kavi:
The question is what makes the situation? Many people get killed in Iran-Iraq war and both sides were killing because they were defending Islam (if you have a memory of those days). If these Muslims (both-sides and 99.99 percent of them) who believed in Allah and as they say, Islam has lots of peaceful verses/teachings, what kind of teaching/rules did allow them another human?
Don’t you think so if these Muslims (both-sides) had a good understanding/knowledge/teaching just couldn’t they stop from fighting? and what would happen later? Wouldn’t Saddam and Khomeini stop from fighting?
This is the part that you missed it.
RandallJones:
I don’t think so New World wars from west point of view, consider religious wars but from Islamic point of view, wars from Muslim countries consider religious war. (They consider themselves! so you can’t argue it)
It’s not that much in our history books in middle east just because Muslim clergies has not permitted our authors to write truth about Islam and it’s crime.
You can’t justify Islam terrorisms with anything else.
Hashim:
Do you read any of verses? Which verses reflects your mindset and ignorant logic? Tell me then we discuss on verses; what do you say?
Please! Don’t give me these typical remarks! Show your logic.
It is a typical Islamist blames instead of discussion.
It’s not about Mullahs?!! It is about teachings!
My article was worth reading that you read it already
You’re hilarious!
Randall,
I agree, religion is not the only factor. But, as far as Iran goes, I do believe that they use it either because they really believe it, or as a rallying call for the masses.
In the US, religious reasons to go to war if openly talked about or used as a reason to justify going to war would turn uglier than if Mexico invaded. Not so in Iran-not one public speech is made without a reference to some religious tract.
Either way, they are justifying war.
What is somewhat of a consolation is that most Iranians are aware of the pathetic nature of Islamic Iranian theocracy. The government is stacked with hypocritical, opportunistic and blasphemous clerics who haven’t an inkling of how to manage or govern justly. There was an article written earlier–brain drain or something–about how Iranian movers and shakers all left after the revolution when khar Khomeini came in.
Fariborz, you wrote,
Many wars were fought in the name of Jesus.
Fariborz, you wrote,
I don’t justify any form of terrorism.
You can not justify the United States recruiting and training Muslim extremists to fight in Afghanistan, in order to give the Soviet Union its “Vietnam.”
Nothing justified the United States interfering in Iraqi politics and helping Saddam Hussein gain power. Nothing justified the United States supporting Saddam when he was committing brutal atroticies.
Nothing justifies the UNited States bombing Vietnam and Cambodia, which resulted in the deaths of 3 to 5 million.
Nothing justifies the United States interfering with the politics of the Congo, training militants and selling weapons to both sides of the conflict. In the meanwhile the U.S. and Israel exploit its natural resources.
Finnpundit, you wrote,
You have used very biased sources
The no-fly zones the U.S. and Britian enforced were illegal. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1175950.stm
Here is another article about this http://www.slate.com/?id=2074302
So when the IDF bombed the shit out of the USS Liberty on June 8th of 1967, would you have supported the bombing of Israel in response?
That’s an act of war too, is it not?
Same logic applies to those who invade other countries under false pretenses, don’t you think?
No wait, you’re one of those neo-con asskissing Persians, I forgot. Only Muslims are terrorists, unlike others.
Idiot.
Randall Jones:
You can not justify the United States recruiting and training Muslim extremists to fight in Afghanistan, in order to give the Soviet Union its “Vietnam.”
Nothing justified the United States interfering in Iraqi politics and helping Saddam Hussein gain power. Nothing justified the United States supporting Saddam when he was committing brutal atroticies.
Nothing justifies the UNited States bombing Vietnam and Cambodia, which resulted in the deaths of 3 to 5 million.
Nothing justifies the United States interfering with the politics of the Congo, training militants and selling weapons to both sides of the conflict. In the meanwhile the U.S. and Israel exploit its natural resources.
Your knowledge of the Cold War, and Communism, and the Soviet Union is so limited that it is laughable. Everything that the US did to stop the spread of Communism was justified, if measured against your own scale, if you’d happen to be more informed.
However, I don’t think anyone can claim some action or other is “justified”. The best measure, – which is the un-moral (as opposed to immoral), and thus reliable, measure – is if the resulting structure after the action is returning any profit.
Sad to say, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia wallow in the kind of poverty, post-active US involvement, that only can be described as a “welfare-statist lullaby”.
Look to Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan to get an idea what could have been… if the US had stayed.
Finnpundit,
If you wouldn’t like your home to be bombed and your family to be killed, why do you think people in the Middle East or Asia would like it?
Let’s recall what the United States did in Afghanistan.
quote from http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Women/RevolAfghanWomen.html
Fariborz, I gotta tell you that I disagree with much of what you say. I also believe that you’re biased because of your grudge against Islam. However, I must admit that you have a magical ability to incite a useful and very interesting comment “riot” like this one.
LOL.
RandallJones:
Seriously Randall, The US is the most secular country in the world.
If we believe you’re right! So here is my question, Why Muslims like those you described can be extremists? is there anything wrong in their teachings?
If as Muslims say, they have religion of peace, how extremism can come out of it in this huge and non-stoppable scale?
RandallJones:
And I am not even talking about US. Why do you bring US in any discussion with me? I am talking about Islamic Republic of Iran’s moves and Islam polity.
Drima:
Just wherever you find me biased, just write me comment and we will reach to a point.
As long as it’s useful, it’s good for us.
All i can say to you is “Peace” and since you are versed in the Quran and know its context and setting, you will can find out why I say Peace.
Fairboz, you write,
I know that but remember you had asked “Which religion is responsible for the most number of deaths in 1400 years?”
So we are talking about the number of deaths a religion/country is responsible for and we are not just talking about the present, but the past 1400 years.
Fairboz, you write,
Why don’t you discuss this? Instead, you just make sweeping generalizations that demonize all Muslims. Also maybe you can discuss why do certain Western countries collaborate with Muslims extremists and brutal dictators.
Fairboz, you wrote,
I bring up the United States because ever since the end of colonialism, the U.S. has been politically and militarily intervening in the Middle East.
You can not have an honest and complete analysis of what is going on in the Middle East without including the role of the United States.
RandallJones:
US is just about 300 year’s old country! You can’t even include it in anything and thanks to their secular state; their government doesn’t bother themselves with religious orders!
It wasn’t generalization, it was all about teachings. Every Muslim gets same teachings, some turn to be extremists, some not.
I personally think we in Middle East shouldn’t blame any country for our problems in Middle East. As I said, if Muslims teachings are right and good! Why some of them at the first place turn to be extremists that collaborate with any other country than themselves?
You can’t blame US for every problem that we have had in Middle East! It’s our people and tyrant leaders’ problem. It’s about teachings and teachings that didn’t bring up good understanding out of it!
Hashim:
I shouldn’t look for Peace in Quran! I do have peace and am looking for more specially for people in my country. Remember! peace won’t come with ignorance. Peace will come with understanding, good teachings and communication.
Fariborz, you wrote,
I know that the U.S. is about 300 years old that doesn’t mean it is not responsible for a lot of deaths. Besides, I did not just talk about the U.S. see my previous comments.
I am not blaming the U.S. for every problem; I am only blaming it for things related to the military, politcal, and financial actions that it has taken in the Middle East.