Germany considers increased spying on Muslims
It is a shame when a few nuts ruin it for everybody else. A new story I saw come out today talks about how the Germans are stepping up spying on new converts to Islam to help ward off extremism. You can read the whole story here.
Intelligence gathering and spying in reality are very good things. First of all, it lets those who suspect a person verify indeed what they are up to and lets them get a bigger idea of what may be going on in their social circles and if anything point them in the right direction if the original source is harmless. Some of you who know may know of my past posts may be surprised to hear that I think this is a good idea. When the Germans increase this type of surveillance they will quickly weed out all of the peace loving and tolerant people in the community and really only focus on the heretics.
German authorities will review ways to fight homegrown terrorists, including a proposal to allow Internet spying on all German converts to Islam.
Germans were shocked to learn that two of the bombers were native-born and had common German names, Fritz and Daniel. All three were unemployed and living on German government benefits…
So it seems that there is a trend developing that radicalized converts of non Arab origin are being used by heretics to further damage Islam and terrorize others. How ingenious and how terrible!
Guenther Beckstein , the interior minister said…Germans converting to Islam should be watched because they tend to show particular fanaticism in order to prove worthy of their new religion.
So it seems that these radicals wannabes have to be initiated into Islam? I wasn’t aware that was require. BECAUSE ITS NOT!
Domestic surveillance is a new thing for Americans and some people are totally against it, but im not. the UK does it very well with MI5 and the US is learning more and more how to manage it. It really only targets those who are up to no good. The poor law abiding Muslims of Germany, a majority of the Turks, have to put up with this violation of privacy in order for the police to find the heretics.
In reality this will give the German authorities a good idea of who is who and in the end be beneficial for the public by getting a heads up on any new hot head.
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They do a good job..there shouldn’t be any little privacy for muslims..the harras everybody’s right with terorism in israel, iraq, usa, germany, england and name a few…they should send them back home..good post man
The article you quote does a bad and illogical job by comparing those protecting measures with Nazi-Germany.
But actually today Muslims are not the victims, they are the aggressors. So in Germany neo-Nazis, the extreme left scene and e.g. Scientology is closely observed by domestic intelligence since they are all considered as a threat to civilization. And since Islam is also sucha threat to civilization it should be forbidden as well.
Dont think Rad that I am advocating internment style monitoring. No.
Subtle, electronic surveillance on people who use the internet, email and SMS to get the dirty work done.
Good people who do nothing wrong should be fine. Whether they are Muslim, Jew Christian or whatever. Many Muslims, a majority of them are great people with lots of culture and good will. They are disgusted and tired of people using their religion to do nasty things. Those people, those good Muslims, are our strongest allies. Don’t forget it.
@Omid T: The good thing with WWII was that Germany as a whole was called into responsibility. There was no such thing like a “good Nazi”, because they all followed an evil ideology. So does Islam.
How can you dare to talk about “Good people…”?
IM not going to let this thread turn into another Muslim bashing go around.
Keep your ignorant comments to yourself people and if you say Muslims–make the distinction between heretics who do evil–and those who are doing good.
You see that is what I mean.
Since someone calls the truth here and you seem not to be able to defend yourself by logic argument, as we are used to in civilization, you fall be to call your opponend … let me guess Xenophobic? Or Islamophob?
You just dropped you veil!
Good people DM, you know people who dont do bad things.
There are millions of them in the Arab and Muslim World.
People like the ones who started this site to help facilitate dialog, human rights, freedom.
Saying Muslims, and actually meaning fanatics is something that we will not allow. Plus it only fans the flames and offends people.
Its like saying All Germans are Nazis and every one who served in the Army with Nazi Germany…even for a short time…is evil.
So I guess the Pope falls into that category. Im afraid it is not my post that lacks the logic.
I’d like to quote Adorno: “There is no good thing within a bad surrounding.” (Excuse my transaltion; original: “Es gibt nichts Gutes im Schlechten.”)
Former German Secretary of Social Affairs Blum once said: “The concentration camps (KZ’s) could function only as long as the German army was able to hold the frontlines.” In other words - yes, all Germans, if not active in resistance, were guilty.
So show me your Muslim resistance against evil Islam ideology!
After WWII Germany was subject to re-education. And Germany was healed that way.
Where is Muslim re-education? Recently a number of ex-Muslims formed associations in Europe - you know what happened? - As expected - they received dead-threats by other followers of the “Religion of Peace”.
I don’t care that much for the pope, but yes, he had to find his way out of evil Nazi ideology. And to me it looks like he succeeded.
Can you show me any Grand-Mufti now bound to civilization? Or the other way around - can you show me any catholic suicide terrorist sent out by catholic ideology, applouded in mass-prayers, supported by the majority catholic society. Can you?
Your quote from Adorno is really not applicable because frankly its not true.
Since you are German, im sure you know all about the White Rose movement in Germany at the time of the Nazis. Anybody who is not, can read about them and their heroic acts here. In essence the White Rose were “non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of a number of students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor.” Also, “Six members, the core members, of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943. The text of their sixth leaflet was smuggled out of Germany through Scandinavia to England, and in July 1943 copies of it were dropped over Germany by Allied planes, retitled “The Manifesto of the Students of Munich.”
So, clearly, “Es gibt nichts Gutes im Schlechten” does not hold true under closer inspection.
Furthermore, you say that After WWII Germany was subject to re-education. And Germany was healed that way. Well…not all of Germany…You yourself said German neo-Nazis…are closely observed by domestic intelligence since they are all considered…a threat to civilization. I imagine these neo-nazis are not Chzechs or Hungarians–they are German.
So it appears that your own words prove my point.
To sum it up–according to your logic, today Germans are not Nazis, but there are a few here and there. Ergo, not all Muslims are terrorists or fanatics, but unfortunately there are a few here and there. This is all I’m saying. Well—apparently all your saying.
Stupid these Goddamn converts were. And the damn Salafis, my God they are truly the biggest threat to the world. I always get a crack out of how FariDork and Jahanshah think Iran and the Taliban are the same, when majority of extremist Sunnis regard Iran as an imperialistic state and regard the Shi’a as kaafirs. This is the threat that Sunni militancy is bringing to the world.
Pakistan needs to unleash its 600k-strong military to destroy this menace in Waziristan once and for all.
And also, is it any wonder that Europeans are getting fed up with Arabs, Pakistanis, and Muslims in general?
I’m truly disgusted.
Its a sad case of dangerous generalization. A victory for terrorists. Thats why we need to use our minds and stop the petty name calling.
Well, I wouldn’t dare to call Adorno wrong, since I’m convinced that I’m not as half as smart as he was.
I guess you read my posting, so then you might have been reading the part I wrote about resistance and guilt as well.
You are a bit a xenophob, are you? I pointed out clearly that the evil thing is not Germany and Germans as such, but the evil Nazi-ideology the felt onto.
The same goes for neo-Nazis. It’s not their citzenship which matters (unfortunatley those bastards spread worldwide), it’s the evil ideology which makes them dangerous.
As I pointed out they are observed and fought by authorities and - much more important - the don’t enjoy wide public support.
Same back to Muslims. I don’t care whether Mr. Suicide Bomber is a Lebanese, Pakistani or a converted German. Citizenship does not matter, it’s the evil ideology of Islam which makes them killing innocent civilians. AND: They do enjoy publc support in Muslim dominated countries.
You avoid the point I wrote about the pope - how comes? Aint you able to give me some examples as I begged you for?
DM, ok. I’m glad to have such an exchange. If we keep it civil I’m sure our points can be expressed.
It is clear that Adorno was a great and accomplished man. But his quote that you used was not appropriate for this context and it did not apply.
It would be sacrilege for me to be a xenophobe. I am a Baha’i.
You are right, it is the evil ideology that we must attack. Not the people who don’t have or harbor this ideology. You should read my other post about how to fight a terrorist.
True. They do not enjoy wide public support. However, Neo-Nazis are at the far right of the right wing spectrum and there are people such as hard core nationalist that truly believe that their country or nation is better than someone else. There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism led to Nazism.
So, on a spectrum of ideologies there are probably many more people who sympathize with and quasi-support suicide bombers–but would not do it themselves. THIS IS BAD. Clearly, we must fight this. My other posts talks more about that.
It is the evil ideologies that seems to be creeping into the public venue by radical instigators and it is certainly not productive. I wouldn’t say they enjoy full public support. It only appears that way in the media. I promise you that they don’t.
Ever heard of the IRA? Here in the US we had homegrown terrorists bomb many people in Oklahoma and Atlanta. They too were inspired by Biblical quotes about life and death.
Hmmm…Any grand Mufti…Well I know there are probably many more peaceful clerics than I know, since im not Muslim, perhaps we could have some help naming a few.
Ali Gomma of Egypt is the Grand Mufti at Al-Azhar…aside from his other comments which I wont associate myself with…he does have a very influential position in Sunni Islam…
There can be no doubt that I feel Islamic clerics need to do more. But, so do we.
At first glance, Adorno seems right insomuch that I do not expect any good ideas to come out of your foul mouth. However, the fact of the matter is that the last time I checked, flowers grow pretty well in cow crap. You may now go back to embarrassing yourself under the rubric of the free speech and tolerance that has been provided for you by many of your Muslim hosts. This has been a PeacefulVanguard Public Service Announcement.
Come, come now chap. Target the idea, not the fellow. We have more interaction when we take the idea apart, not the person.
No one is perfect.
There is no such thing like a publicly accepted display of patriotism in Germany. See US/Estonian/Swiss/Norwegian flags flying in one’s yard in the respective country - unthinkable in Germany. Here there’s hardly a difference in understanding of patriotism and nationalism, at least not in display.
The IRA. Yes. But frankly, was this really, I mean really based on catholic ideology or was it merely a territorial conflict of the Irish and the Brits? Can you present me any IRA-supporting statement issues by the Vatican or any other catholic authority?
On the other hand you will find plenty terror supporting statements of Islamic authorities, not to forget about those Muslim SS-divisions on the Balkans in support of Nazi-Germany. And since archives are open I’d like to invite you to learn abit about Yasser Arafat’s uncle participating in planning the Holocaust in Germany.
Furthermore I guess Ali Gomma of Egypt is aware of the Islamic concept of Taqqiya? Is he?
Omid, read his posts again. He insists there is no such thing as a good Muslim because every single one, without exception, is a harbinger of evil, and you think such views are up for debate? You’re scaring me with your neutrality in the face of raw hate. I am not going to swing hate back, certainly not by attacking his ingroup, but his behavior is cruel by painting an entire community in a throroughly unredemptive light with no chance for hope, and I won’t pretend that such views, and the practices that could easily result from them, deserve some level of academic respect. He’s saying that Esra’a, and the other bloggers here, along with my own blogmate, Myrtus, are evil and you lecture me that I should entertain his ideas? I mean, seriously, Omid, how dare you?
“You’re scaring me with your neutrality in the face of raw hate.”
“Hate” is only an emotion and therefore of little use. Especially when it comes to defending civilization from Islam. No need for emotions here, just facts.
Maybe you’d like trying to read once more what I’ve written. Maybe then you will understand that I did not say that any single person you mentioned is evil.
I just said that there is the evil ideology of Islam, which is almost the same as fascism, and that there is a need to wipe it out.
Re-education saved Germany; re-education is also a good idea to save the certainly good people in now Muslim dominated countries.
They should have a good life as well, which means a life without Islam.
Do you understand now?
I agree with you. I define them as as bad muslim but good human being. Hardly they follow the basic teaching of Q’uran and sunnah. Khomani, Osama and their millions of followers are good muslims. Simply because they follow the very fundamentals of islam. They are ready to kill or be killed for it. Good muslims are the victim of islam. I don’t blame but feel sorry for them. So whom to blame?
It is the ideology that robbed their human virtues.In case of Nazism it was ‘Adolf Hitler and his ‘Mei Kamph’. Try to guess whom to blame in case of islam.
Yes, I’m sure he is.
I’m not sure you are though.
Muslims who show ties to Islamist manifestations of different currents of political Islam–Hamas, Hezballah, Sunni Islamic extremists are quite marginalised in Germany. control of these elments is a national security, but should not be coloured with racist, xenophobia, and Christian fundamentalism.
Germany because of its specific history is psychologically, more than any other European country, expected to respect all communities peacefully living in the country.
Unfortunately the Muslim definition of “peace” is far different from the civilized definition of peace.
The recent event shows clearly that Muslims obviously have no interest to assimilate peacefully in a civilized community.
There’s a prescription that DM can use to cure his hateful xenophobia. It’s called: reading. Please consider educating yourselves before commenting on this website that has no place for ignorant attacks.
Good step. I’m a former muslim, was born into Islam and left it. I’m an athiest now. Finally Germany does something that makes sense. Here in the US, the people are idiots. They love their political correctness.
“You’re scaring me with your neutrality in the face of raw hate.”
Raw hate was not apparent in his post. Perhaps a little generalization–but not hate.
Frankly there is much work to be done in terms of re-education everywhere. People have to learn to stop preaching stereotypes and take the time to THINK. Esra’a has provided all of
you an open chance to talk about these things in a productive way but far too often silly and shallow comments find their way into the forum.
Neutrality is necessary. Clearly I have my opinions and obligations as a moderator here. But, that doesn’t mean I have to accept people slinging names and accusations that should rather be directed at the idea put forward from them. You will find that dissecting the idea is much more conducive to proving your point then simply tearing down the person–regardless of what they may say.
Oh the irony. Did you forget about the Pope’s tacit approval of the Nazi Party?
You make me laugh.
Ever heard of the Palestine Regiment?
“Did you forget about the Pope’s tacit approval of the Nazi Party?”
Ummm, if you’re referring to his stint in the Hitler Youth when he was a child I think that this argument has gotten a little stale. It (along with the German army) was compulsory/mandatory when he was enrolled so he had no choice. And if that is really the argument your trying to make that means that every german boy and girl from the pope’s generation approved of the Nazi Party, which seems a bit farfetched.
And who are the Palestine Regiment
nefer, the Palestine Regiment was a battalion that consisted of both Arabs and Jews that fought against the Axis forces during WW2.
Robert Fisk actually had an excellent editorial regarding an Arab and a Jew that fought together during WW2, then fought against each other in the Six Day War, and then became friends again.
That’s just an excerpt, more in the link below.
Originally from The Independent