WILL WE EVER DRIVE ?
As you all know, it is forbidden for women to drive in Saudi Arabia. Women are flying jet planes in other countries yet Saudi women aren’t even able to sit behind a steering wheel!
We are the one and only country in the world that implements such rules.
Banning women from driving comes from strict interpretations of many Saudi scholars that women must be accompanied by a legal guardian (Mahrem) when ever in public.
When you actually look at the closer picture, women are not always accompanied by their male guardians rather they are mostly driven by foreign hired male drivers that take them from one place to another.
So, in the end women do interact with unrelated men. Don’t you think this actually defies the purpose?
The issue of women driving was raised in the early 90′s when several professional and academic Saudi women drove in the streets of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. It was taboo then and the reaction by society and the government was harsh.
Since then, the issue has been raised only in the last few years by the media, newspapers and liberals within the Saudi society. King Abdullah mentioned previously that banning women from driving is not a political issue, it is a social one, and that the government does not object to it. A high rank government official has also stated that society is the obstacle that stands in the way of women driving in this country. Once society accepts the idea, Saudi women will be able to take this step.
A petition was made by a group of Saudi women who formed a society just recently that calls itself “The Society for Protecting and Defending Women’s Rights”. They are demanding the right for women to drive in Saudi Arabia. This petition will be presented to King Abdullah on Saudi National Day on the 23rd of September.
Has the time come for Saudi women to drive at last? Who would have thought a question like this would be asked in the 21st century when other women have already traveled to the moon!
Join the Conversation
The world needs to ban kings, not women drivers. Fortunately it’s only a matter of time…
gary
What are the practical details? For example, what legislation must be passed or changed; would veils be allowed for driver’s license photos; would driving schools have to offer women-only classes?
Dear Woman (= I assume Rasha is a woman),
It is my pleasure to inform you that it is for your interest and only your interest that you not drive.
Driving in KSA is a hazardous deed, and you need not engage in the risks that it entails; least of which is to have to change your own tire. (= under the gaze of perverts).
The load you will add on the infrastructure will cost the government Billions which are needed to more important projects. (=building more building which are called schools).
The number of cars will increase dramatically leading to more accidents than we already have. (=This is not to mention the global phenomena of bad women driving)
You will have to start shopping for yourself, and not be the lay back person you always had been sitting at the back seat, sipping coffee, or reading a book (=very rare), or fixing your make up. Or in the front seat trying to prove to your husband (=or sibling) that you know as much about the roads as he does.
I can go on to list all the benefits of not driving which were all taken into consideration by our wise scholars when they insisted on the bad, but this will suffice.
Mrs Chauvinist
Dear MyTwoCents,
The most important practical detail is to have a “Woman Driving Kit” … the contents of which will be revealed in a future message.
Dear Mr. “Chauvinist,”
Thank you for referring to yourself as such. Very fitting.
Dear Esra’a ( = is this a woman or a woman sympathizer)
YOU WIN!!
I wrote what I did under the ID of “Chauvinist” for a main purpose.
You see, one of the main characteristics of contenders who can’t substantiate their arguments is to use the tactic of “character attack” …rather than tackle the logic (=or mis-logic) of their adversaries…
You did well… I salute you!
Regarding the comment you made: allow me to say that while I know what I am, some women out there seem to have an identity crisis, and have lost the conception of what and who they really are; thus we hear them here and there crying out for this and that right.
On a more serious note: driving will be a very challenging experience for women in its initial phases (=can last up to five years to say the least), but it is a reality which is in the making; and the most dangerous thing is that it happens suddenly…
Thank you
Of course I did.
I’m a woman. We always win. And you know what? We’re gonna win the right to drive in Saudi Arabia too. So wear your helmet, swallow your so-called logic, and watch us own.
Ahahah witty reaction.
Excellent conclusion Rasha.. great article overall.
Hmmm.. A lot has happened here since I last posted this article!
I will try my best to comment on your comments
Gary,
As I mentioned, Our society plays a big role in stopping us from progressing in many different fields. It is a very complex society where traditions overshadow logic and religion sometimes.
MyTwoCents,
I assure you it won’t be easy. The infrastructure has to change. If the government is serious about women driving, they would have to make big changes by hiring women officers, training them, providing them with offices.. etc. They would have to prepare the society for such change using the media, workshops.. etc. (it won’t be easy)
Open driving schools for females ofcourse..
Implement strict driving rules, support the pioneer women and protect them in the beginning.
An important rule might be making sure women wear a proper (Hijab) head cover while driving so as not to attract men!! although, I think Saudi men should learn to exercise self control for a change!
(I don’t believe a head cover stands in the way of us driving, especially that women officers will be needed to deal with women drivers)
As for you Mr. Chauvinist,
I agree it is a jungle out there.. and women will face problems in dealing with the opposite sex.. it has to be done sooner or later.. I’d rather sooner than later. As I mentioned above, men will have to learn how to deal with it and it will take time as you mentioned.
The government will need to spend money on changing the infrastructure but can’t you see we are spending so much already on recruiting and hiring drivers! I don’t have the statistics but I assure you the numbers have sky rocketed..
Is the government spending BILLIONS on schools now?
Women will replace hired drivers so I really don’t think they will be the cause of traffic in the kingdom. We have and will continue to have this problem due to the lack of good planning and lack of proper public transformation..
As for the benefits you mentioned.. we are pampered in a way, at the same time we are being controlled by you men. I assure you that some women will hire drivers even if driving was allowed. We ask for the freedom to choose for ourselves. The ability to drive in case of an emergency.. to take a child to school, to go to work.. to finish our day to day chores without the need to beg a sibling or a husband who is in no mood to move. It is our right I would say to be in control of our own lives rather than being puppets where you men pull our strings!
It’s because of the people justifying (and sometimes denying) the lack of such opportunities and rights. I don’t think it’s only the fault of the government, society certainly plays a major role when it comes to the way of life (in this case, oppression.) There are too many people with very arrogant, self-important, and backwards mindsets who think they have the key and answers to a pure “Islamic” society, when really they’re just being fascists.
Oh.. And thank you for that comment Murad
Lovely remarks Esra’a..
Last but not least, please wipe off that sarcastic smirk off your face Mr.Chauvinist it is quite distasteful ..
(I do apologize for posting many comments)
by the way… I meant PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION!
it must be the sudden sugar rush after a day’s fast!
If Mr. Chauvinist (harhar) is so concerned about traffic perhaps he should give up driving? It’s very easy for men to sit on their flabby asses telling us what we can and cannot do when we actually have important shit to deal with, like oh I don’t know, raising your damned kids? Helping you maintain your life? Wanting the ability to live like anybody else in this world, to make choices, to choose our own path and careers and way of life?
Should women in Saudi Arabia drive… the answer to that is YES and has been YES for as long as we have had to ask this question. Those “great scholars” you rely on and idealise are just pigs who treat us like we’re second class citizens unworthy of BASIC CIVIL RIGHTS… and then JUSTIFY it! You have some nerve backing up these claims as if you know what youre talking about. Lets face it. You really don’t!
Like most women I am disgusted with these arguments that make it seem as if women are of an entirely different species. Dangerous for women to drive? Having no logic? Because we’re animals? Babies? Mentally ill? Why are you so scared of us, do we threaten your self esteem? Have some respect. And remember that it was a woman who once suffered having you in her womb for 9 months, the least you can pay her back with is by acknowledging and defending her rights.
Wow this post triggered a lot of passion.
hmmmm ,,,,
Well well well!!
I see that the cavalry has been brought in…
as i contemplate my counter attack please look at both links … they are extremely expressive of the case of women and vehicles since antiquity and up to this day … and of course well into the future of “man”kind…
this was then:
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1289l.jpg
and this is now:
http://beconfused.com/images/2007/01/Annual-meeting-of-women-drivers.jpg
and i will leave the future for your imagination, which i am sure is quite rich as the above comments clearly reflect.
It’s indeed very endearing to sit through your poor attempts at providing hysterical comedy gold, but please stop wasting our time and yours by finding a new hobby.
Ooh yes Esra’a it surely would stir a lot of passion, and this is a quality of any discussion involving issues of a superficial nature.
The issue of driving matters for less than 10% of the women population in the country, yet our sensibilities are abused by the claim that this is an issue for the WOMEN of the land!!
COME ON!!
Why don’t you put your energy where it matters to the majority of females, rather than focus on elitist causes…?
Or at least why don’t you be honest about it?
I totally consider that the fact that we need to discuss this is ridicoulous … not because we are in the 21st century; rather because it is a personal and indiivudlal issue… YET the fact is that in KSA women don’t drive, and for this fact to change proper steps must be taken…
BUT and this is what matters,, in KSA women don’t do more important things …
Take the advice from a man.. think strategically … drop the issue of driving, and by doing that you will bring to your side many many men and women who are not interested in this issue .. focus on one or two major issues only … you cant ask for change on all fronts at once … focus on the judiciary system … not on the laws … on the process… leave the laws till later …
Drving will come natuallry .. but other changes will not …
But being the women you are, and having the “personal” interest in driving you have, and being “insultated” from the suffering of WOMEN out there … you would go on insisting on the issue of driving ….
Turning back to Esra’a … it is so healthy to see that you and other women have created for them selves a parralle world of delusions … a world where they always win.. and where they are always right … I mean at least you were proactive enough to go and create your own world with your own rules and your own fantasies … its not fair that you go through this life losers all the time ..
And I applaud your request to wear a helmet … for in 40 years of my drviging I had never needed it since men were the only kings of the roads… but now with women coming in we will need helmets, tanks, fleets of ambulances roaming the streets…
As for you Rasha …
Well what can I say…
I like that smirk, and I would like to enjoy it for the few years to come … I mean I know driving is coming , but let me enjoy the peace of mind from the presence of female drivers on the roads… it is enough that we deal with half-minded men driving … and we don’t need to add full minded women driving … actually they’re worse..
Regarding control!!
One of the main problems of women’s analysis of the matter at hand is their superficiality…
Men don’t control women … humans control humans … and this meta-gender issue …. Men control who ever they can, and women do the same … it so happened that in the stone ages and till recently the majority of men were physically stronger than the majority of women … and there were not legal systems to curb this strength, so it looked like as if men were controlling women … when it was the classic case of human controlling human. I can list a number of women who had been more manipulative and controlling and ruthless since antiquity … Cleopatra to start with, Zanobia .. and all the way through Elizabeth 1st , and recently Tatcher, Indeerah Gandi, and Butto (excuse the spelling I am not used to writing names of women characters) .. and others …
And each of us can site 1000000000s of examples of everyday women who control other women, or their children, or their employees, or even their husbands…
So please don’t open this cracked record of men controlling women … you do the same and sometimes quite aggressively …
Now turning to Salama … of course it would be more appropriate that you avoid using vulgar language, unless of course you have nothing else to resort to …
AND I am not leaving the roads … and women are not coming soon … so there!!
As you grow old waiting to be able to drive , I and other men will remain kings of the roads …
I will leave aside your other comments, as clearly you are in the best state of mind to be debated at this moment …
Finally ,,
You claim to be focusing on the rights of women when you are nothing but a group of elites who want to lift constraints on themslevers.
Why don’t we see such intense passion in cases of harassment, house abuse, why does this take such a high profile issue?
For one simple reason it is a classic case of: “we can!”
Finally, as you reflect on what I said, I will go take a drive my car and enjoy the cool Jeddah breeze…
You think supporting a woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to drive is an “elitist cause”? Please explain your reasoning.
I’m sure you’re trying your best to come off as a philosophical genius here, but much to your dismay, this does not make any sense. It’s extremely easy for you to dismiss these inconveniences because you do not actually suffer from them, so please do not claim that you know what’s best for us and our well-being when you are already where you want to be within society. And no, we will not leave the laws until later. We will address and tackle them now and we have no reason whatsoever not to. What’s the point in waiting? What gets achieved if we just defer our needs until later? Is that how you address issues in your ever so “logical” and “strategic” way of thinking?
X-USE ME I WANNA BE A QUEEN OF THA ROAD ALSO!!!11
Is that really your aim in life? To be king of the road?
You must be utterly miserable if this is really the highlight of your existence. Other than ownership of households, children, wives, and having the upper hand in almost every aspect of the law, you now claim ownership of the “roads” as well. Brilliant.
Hear that, ladies?
Our beloved “King of the Road” isn’t even logical enough to realize that these things are interrelated. House abuse and harassment would happen less if women could actually escape from them to seek for help, and what better way to do that than just “drive away” in the “cool Jeddah breeze”?
Please before you throw around the word “elite” as if you actually know what it means, make an effort to provide real and justified arguments.
Well, we are not asking for everything at once. It is not like we are trying to reform the country into a democracy all of a sudden. This is something that many women have deemed abusive for a very long time. If we consider the laws to be unfair and quite harmful, we have an obligation to change them.
I am sure that no man in Saudi would want the laws to be changed, because that way they are not just KING OF THE ROADS but kings of the country too. Not much can be done without your humble permissions. I’m sure it feels great to have us on your leash.
Salama,
But you should! Instead of fighting a thousand little battles for freedom, conserve your energy and dump the dictatorship.
gary
Gary, Saudi Arabia does not flow that way. Baby steps is what’s needed, so that society can handle it, and learn in the process of progression. Revolutionary things don’t work as well in our region because leadership is quite honestly the least of our problems, as you can see there is an evident problem in the mentality of people as well, not to mention the widespread extremism.
Look at this video, for example. This is something that justifies gender oppression. You give him and his ilk democracy and chaos will ensue.
Esra,
A slow transition from dictatorship to democracy? Is there precedent for this? Is it already happening in Saudi Arabia such that you feel they are heading for democracy? If I was a citizen (which I’m not), I’m sure I wouldn’t have the patience.
gary
btw, regarding that video…too funny! He needs to do a LOT more thinking before he speaks.
gary
The current leadership is trying to open up. Already it is investing a lot in the educational sphere as well as working on decreasing employment rates. I believe if one issue is targeted at a time, like having the right to drive, and creating a big public uproar about it will make a hell of a lot more difference than just having the same group of a few dozen activists protest for democracy, condemn every action the government does, attempt to have them overthrown and then either get deported or jailed. That helps no one. People have been trying it for decades now with the same results, and no one should expect otherwise. This is how it is, and patience combined with hard strategic work is what’s needed for things to actually blossom.
Compared to the rest of the world, Saudi Arabia may seem “backwards.” Compared to its past, Saudi Arabia came a very long way and is making an effort to continue. I am hopeful for its future, especially now that more voices are being heard. Let’s just hope they result in real action sometime soon.
LOL.
Esra,
I certainly know very little about Saudi Arabia, but even if you’re right that small battles bring awareness to the larger cause, you rarely see dictators voluntarily step down. More often they are hanged or flee the country. But whatever works.
gary
I am definitely not in favor of either. This is what happened in Yemen, you should recall the brutal wars that followed. Very bad plan.
Esra,
The problem is that dictators typically have lots of guns (and large egos), so they don’t typically go calmly. And while the result is often chaos at first, it’s possible for the country to emerge as a democracy. Are there any democracies that didn’t go this route?
gary
I also have a King, and I do not refer to him as a dictator. While we are not perfect, things go quite calmly (in comparison to neighboring countries) and the monarchy refers to itself as a “democratic” one. We take reasonable steps forward. We demand things like constitutional reform and freedom of speech. Not overthrowing the government, turning our country into a jungle, shedding bloodshed for the sake of some phony democracy that most likely won’t even function.
I am in total disagreement here. Our experiences, history, culture and society are different than the typical countries that this has happened to. I wish that before people say these dangerous things, they will visit our countries to see for themselves what the system is like.
Esra,
Given the present rate of constitutional reform in your country, when would you expect to become a democracy? And what is the difference between a king and a dictator?
gary
The difference is very big. Norway has a King, it’s not a dictatorship. Denmark has a Queen, she’s not a dictator. Canada’s head of state is a Queen, but it’s not a dictatorship either. Many other examples of monarchs within democracies.
A dictator, by definition, is someone with complete and total power of a country and who acquired said power by force, with the best (past) example in the region being Saddam Hussain. The king of Bahrain certainly does not fall under this definition, in fact the country is considered one of the most liberal in the Gulf. Heaps of imperfections as well as human rights abuses, but certainly not a dictatorship, and definitely shines in comparison to its neighboring countries. Our constitution currently has many democratic values including free speech and religious freedom (and we are by far one of the most tolerant states in terms of religion as well – with a Jew and some Christians representing the government as well as 7 churches and a Hindu temple and a Baha’i minority with rights recognized.)
Why should I have a problem with this?
Esra,
Since I don’t live under a dictatorship or monarchy, I just don’t have a working understanding of the difference. To me, either you vote or you don’t. Either everyone is represented by their government via elections, or they’re not. I appreciate that some countries have monarchies with little power, basically just figureheads. You mentioned Norway. I believe this is the same situation. Wikipedia describes it like this: “As it stands, the functions of the King, Harald V, are mainly ceremonial.” I suspect Canada is the same situation. I understand that there are a lot of people who like kings and queens as a ceremonial concept, but my own perspective is that they are just people who should get real jobs and stop freeloading off the people. But that’s not for me to decide.
As for your king, even if he didn’t acquire his position by force, inheriting leadership is still a long ways from representative democracy. Tell me this…what if your king was to suddenly become a tyrant…killing people who speak out against him, rolling back reforms, etc. What can you do about it? In democracies, you vote the offending leader out of office. But what’s your mechanism for dealing with such a scenario? My point is that, even if you like your particular king, it’s a very dangerous leadership mechanism due to the potential for abuse.
gary
FYI, though living under a monarchy, we do vote. I think without learning and knowing the structure, you cannot effectively preach to us, especially because the idea is not new. We are aware of democracy, it’s not like we are too brain damaged to apply it. Since you don’t lie under this same structure, you fail to realize the millions of hardships that people here face when it comes to revolutionary concepts. You are not providing anything new. This supposed solution continues to fall on its face whenever anyone attempts to try it, which they have been doing for decades now, hence why we are looking for other solutions or the “baby steps.” One issue at a time.
Your main problem with the arguments you make is just that it’s over-simplified, not well-thought out (as in, you do not take into account what these things could most likely lead to) as well as a very basic understanding of how our societies currently function. Without understanding the history, the present, and taking these things into account for modeling the future, saying “get a democracy, and solve all your problems!” is unbelievably naive…. not to mention very lazy. We realize what is best for our interests, we all want to be free, but we also realize where and how we are living right now and we have traditionally lived for years. Your proposed “solution” will not just takes decades to apply, but it will probably take at least a century for it to entirely function the way it should. This is why you can’t tell people like Salama to just “get a democracy,” do you think this is something available to us in the market? Something we just buy? It’s just so… it shows very basic understanding of the region as a whole. We simply cannot do that. It’s dangerous, it’s messy, and the consequences are dire. We need to have other much more progressive plans instead of being interrupted consistently with these failed propositions.
So let us just agree to disagree. I don’t really appreciate people dismissing the current problems and the ongoing efforts to solve them step by step, by just preaching democracy as if systems were built to change overnight. Where we are right now, leaving everything in the dark and just preaching democracy could lead to things that most of us are clearly not ready for including massive civil wars. Therefore I disagree entirely with your approach. Not your intention, which clearly is good, but your approach, which is not at all strategic or realistic when applied to our societies. It won’t work. Millions have tried and all of them failed miserably. Democratization of societies is good; preaching it and attempting to overthrow the government is not something most succeed at, and often leads to bloodshed.
Should women be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia? It would probably be safer, since that country has, apparently, the dubious distinction of having the most traffic accidents per capita population.
My personal experience, having been a professional truck driver for 15 years, is that the young males of the species, particularly in overpowered cars, are easily the most dangerous thing on the road. If I were to make the laws on this, I would not allow any male (of whatever racial or cultural background) under the age of 30 to own or operate a vehicle capable of going faster than 80kmh, and even then every last one of ‘em should have to do a proper road test and psychiatric exam. And for every woman driver who “slows the flow” of traffic by being careful, there are at least 3 “little-dick” cases who do much worse with aggressive driving, accidents, and generally acting like they’re in a video game. Why do you think that car insurance for young men is generally twice as expensive as for young women?
And as for women driving attrating unwanted attention from predatory men: They’re in a car. They can roll up the windows, lock the doors, and drive away, or just run the creep over! A car can be just as dangerous as a gun. This whole issue isn’t about safety, or money (I mean, it’s Saudi Arabia!) or modesty (ever hear of tinted windows?)it’s about sexism, male insecurity, and oppressive control, and, the last I heard, a certain religion doesn’t approve of those principles. cant seem to link this but check this lil blog out:
http://www.drcetiner.com/category/cars/
Hi Esra,
Sorry for the long delay…busy week. My two girls both had their back-to-school nights. I’ll try to respond…
Point take. Sorry if I come off that way. I’m learning a lot from this forum, but as often as not, it just results in more question for me.
I’m guessing that you don’t have children? As I mentioned, I have two girls, 13 and 16. So if I lived in a country where they were treated like second class citizens, I don’t think I could be a patient as you. If I couldn’t change the system, I would move. I must say…I get a mixed message from you. If you don’t mind I’d like to ask you a few questions…
1) If you could snap your fingers and make your country instantly democratic, would you?
2) I already asked this, but you didn’t answer. If your king was to lose his mind and beoome cruel to his people, what is the people’s recourse?
3) This article is about the lack of rights for females to drive. My country resolved this a century ago. I don’t know if you agree, but I would say social progress happen faster in a democracy. Would you agree?
You’re absolutely right…I have the luxury of living in a time where my country is already democratic. But my understanding of history is that people did indeed sacrifice their lives to gain my freedom. But they did it for a good cause…the future generations. I think if you were to ask them, they would say that the millions of hardships you describe were well worth it. As a father I can tell you that sacrifice for your children just comes naturally.
gary
Now, I don’t know very much about life in Saudi Arabia, but I think, despite the remarks that have been made against Saudi women driving, that it is pretty obvious that when a country is the only country in the world to implement such a law, it is time to make a change.
Whether, Mr. Chauvinist wants to admit it or not, not allowing women to drive is a masculine-control issue. It is an attempt to control the mobility of women, which ultimately makes it more difficult to pursue careers, hobbies, participation in social activism, and political activity. The harder it is to move around the harder it is to organize.
I agree with Eric too. No matter how many times people in the US make jokes about woman drivers, men, especially young men, still get charged more for car insurance because they are at a higher risk of getting into an accident.
I applaud Rasha for this article, because it is young women like her who will make this change in Saudi Arabia. Just being aware of this injustice is a step toward liberation.
There is no ethical reason why women should be denied access to technology, or the right to choose for themselves how they want to live their own lives.
Regarding the discussion about monarchies. . .broadly, there are two types: (1) the reigning type, as is seen in modern-day Europe (they dress up nicely for their close ups, take money from the state, but are largely ceremonial/figureheads); and (2) the ruling type, as is seen in the Middle East (they control almost everything, lack accountability and transparency, appoint their royal courts, appoint their ministers, appoint large portions of their Parliaments, lean heavily on everyone else to follow suit, and keep their grip through heavy reliance on the wasta system and intelligence and military services rather than popular support).
I’ve lived in both democracies and in the ruling/dictating type of monarchies, and I understand both pretty well. Personally, I think the ruling type of monarchy is passe. It is just a matter of time before they mostly die out. But will they be replaced with the reigning type, or will people just decide one day it’s time to throw the bums out and live without monarchies altogether?
Gary, I agree with you, though. Historically, it has rarely happened that they die out gradually or anyone bows out of his own free will. In the dictatorship I lived under, the whole focus of the ruling family was to stay in power. Almost all their decisions were made based on what’s best for their own family and how best to stay in control. So no criticism of the king and the royal family or you risk imprisonment and fines. Lots and lots of posters and photos of them everywhere, just to remind everyone who’s boss. No free press. . .the media is basically the royal court’s vehicle for disseminating propaganda. You get the picture.
I think any change will probably end up occurring through some kind of unplanned, mostly unforeseeable tectonic shift, such as those that brought down the Berlin Wall in Eastern Europe and broke apart the former USSR. This is not necessarily how I hope it plays out, but just my sense of what will happen in the end. I think it will be bloody in some places, though. Some of these folks are not going to go down without a big struggle. Think Black September in Jordan, when the Palestinians tried to overthrow King Hussein. There was blood on the streets until he regained control, and there is still deep resentment among a lot of Palestinians there for that and other things.
I don’t think baby stepping it is going to work. At the current rate of change, it will take centuries just for some countries to catch up to where others have been for decades. Meanwhile, most of the rest of the world is moving at warp speed, and I just don’t think the world can function with one block of nations moving at the speed of light and another taking baby steps. The gap is just getting wider and wider. Something’s gotta give.
But to answer Rasha’s question. . .oh, God, I hope you can drive really soon. It is such a small thing to ask. Small, but symbolically powerful.
ERS,
You said it so much better than I…
gary
I enjoy such debate,whereit reminds me about the nicedoors
Granted, if driving is unsafe for women, that is probably the only valid reason to prevent such, but there must still be a solution to make it safe for women to drive.
That is an issue that goes into Saudi culture, which must be changed to be more in line with Allah’s revelation, just as all cultures must be. Men must not be taught to view women as prey, but as potential spouses or relatives or strangers to be left alone.
Also, we must judge that at any cost we shouldn’t follow or copy the other cultures. We should not follow or ape the west just in the name of democracy, , liberties must be enjoyed but, were being told that ” those who will follow others in this world will b raised with them “, , , so , move cautiously,,,,,,,,,,
Thanks.
Abdullah,
I agree with you that it is unsafe for women to drive because men do look at women as prey. That is why we need strict rules and regulations in such matters.
what is the difference between man and animal if man can’t show any self control for God’s sake?!
The only valid reason for preventing women from driving is CONTROL like every other matter related to women in this country.
Or why would a woman need her guardian’s consent for her education or work?
I agree that we are not asking for this in the name of democracy alone. It is a right and a necessity.
Many women nowadays support their families financially. the number of single women and divorcees are on the rise. and I believe the time has come to set new rules. Allow women to drive and give her the independence she seeks.
Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prevents women from driving.. I wonder, are we the ONLY ISLAMIC country??
People always associate the women NOT driving with Islam..
or associate driving with the west.. wake up.. smell the coffee.. women drive in ALL Arab and Islamic countries too!!!
Thanks..
Rasha,
It is not about Islam, it is about US. We are not yet ready for it and there are more important things we got to fix; our system corruption, our behavior WE men and women will jeopardize our life when women drive at this time. I think you can drive when we really adapt Muslims attitude and disciplines.
Think of us, we spent most of time in MALLS, Hypermarkets for no valuable reasons. WE already are suffering from high divorces rates, late marriage, none-valuable education system, un-emplacement, un-safe roads, etc.
Sister, I wish my sister, wife, daughters drive themselves instead of going with stringer “drivers”, but with our current situation if they dive they would have higher risks, traffic accidents, harassment etc…
Needless to say we don’t have a really justice & protective systems or self integrity. We all Women and Men should aim on our highest priorities; … BE MUSLIMS and focus on OUR COMMON HUMMAN RIGHTS.
والله يحفظنا جميعاُ ويوفقنا للخير
Wow. I know it’s not an intellectual reply, but Abdullah’s post above is the most moronic justification for treating women as second class citizens I’ve ever heard.
gary
Gary,
I actually agree with him. Go to the latest podcast and listen to an influential Saudi woman make a similar argument, from a woman’s perspective. You’ll know what he means.
He’s not saying that women shouldn’t drive, he’s not depriving them of any rights. He’s saying they got more important issues to deal with right now, and they do. He makes a lot of sense. I agree with him.
How common are Abdullahs opinions in Saudi Arabia? Which demographic usually holds them? How big a role does geography play?
By Abdullahs oppinions I mean “women should ideally have rights, but we (the Saudis I presume) are not ready for them”.
They are common even in countries like Bahrain. You guys seem to expect things to happen overnight. Do you not learn from what’s happening in Iraq? The podcast I shared here already discussed the possibility of civil war if we put in motion the kind of change that many of you are preaching to us. Please try to grasp this concept: Many of us are working very hard on implementing the kind of change that we need. We will not do it overnight. We are not going to kill our leaders or invite foreign forces to kill our leaders and just turn our countries into a huge jungle with no real government. Change needs to take place asap, that is true, but it needs to come from within and a lot of people are trying to see how this can be done without causing more harm to our already conflicted societies.
Real, influential change is a gradual process. Women NEED and want rights, we recognize that. But at the same time these rights must be worked hard for. And they are being worked hard for. Saudi people are prioritising their problems. It’s going to take time. Abdulla realizes that, I realize that, the lady in the podcast realizes that. When will you?
Human rights are human rights. I don’t distinguish between how we treat our daughters and wives and how we treat other human beings. I would think equality of human rights would make the TOP of your list of improvements for a country. I feel sorry for a people who are still struggling with concepts that other nations solved decades, even centuries ago.
gary
That is irrelevant.
We are not talking about what human rights are or who needs them. This much is obvious.
We are talking about HOW we achieve them in certain societies; societies that you do not live in and are not familiar with to be able to truly understant the point that Abdulla is making which boils down to collective mentalities and social structure. He is right. His way is the only way we can really witness change.
Esra,
I don’t accept hiding behind societal customs as a valid excuse for treating people unfairly. If you concede that a particular behavior is wrong (like I believe you do), society owes it to their daughters and wives to change it NOW. Don’t make the current generation victims of people who feel more comfortable doing nothing.
You keep mentioning change by invasion or civil war. Nobody is proposing such drastic means. There are plenty of examples in history where change came as you say “from within” and not by violent means. So let’s drop that from the rhetoric. In this particular example the women of Saudi Arabia are the ones who will need to force the change. They just need to organize. They DON’T need to be told it’s not the right time.
gary
Esra’a
When I shared my impression that culture, or as you call it “collective mentalities”, was part of the problem in Saudi Arabia, on another thread, I got several earfuls about how Saudi Arabia is not a democracy, and how it’s laws are not affected by popular sentiment. Inquiring as to how popular sentiment roughly broke down, I was told that that would remain a mystery until such a time that free elections could be held in that country. Now I’m being told that reactionaries are in a position to launch a civil war over these issues, and that, again, society at large is simply not ready. I’m trying to get a handle on this but I’m receiving mixed signals.
I don’t see what Iraq has to do with any of this, the problems there were not caused by women driving or anything of the sort.
You are not receiving mixed signals, you are jumping to conclusions and are being generally confused.
Look at Iraq in terms of transition. It practically changed overnight and now it’s worse than ever. This is what will always happen if sudden change takes place. Saudi is changing in ways that you simply do not understand, compare it to its history and see how far it has come and you will understand how much it has progressed. I think it’s really ridiculous when people are sitting comfortably in the ever so perfect ‘West’ and preach us change without understanding a single thing about how activism works in our part of the world.
And do you honestly think women not driving is Saudi’s BIGGEST problems? You’re obviously unaware of the other more important rights that they are trying to acquire and are consistely working very hard for.
Esra’a:
Yes! And people are not helping.
I realize that progress is being made in Saudi Arabia, starting with the inclusion of women in the economy as discussed in the podcast. I think that’s great. What I have trouble figuring out is how I must be a bigot for thinking that prevailing attitudes in Saudi Arabia are part of the problem, when the people calling me a bigot are expressing that very fact on other threads. Does it all come down to the evil dictator implementing these wacky laws in spite of popular discontent, or are these laws so damn popular that an uprising is to be expected if they are altered? Damn straight I’m confused, HELP!
Esra’a:
I’m getting a whole lot of lip for not understanding this that or the other thing, and not much assistance in figuring them out. When I’m asking a question I’m not looking for a lecture on how I don’t know the answer. I guess a lot of people interpret my questions as rhetorical when they’re not.
Esra’a:
No, I used that as an example of one of the things Saudi society is allegedly not ready for, mostly because it used to be the topic of this thread. What I meant to illustrate was that Iraqs problems were not attributable to the sort of legal and legislative reform needed in Saudi Arabia.
Iraq had its entire power structure removed and rebuilt from the ground up, in an environment where the populace had been indoctrinated from birth to hate and suspect the country doing the rebuilding. In Iraq the insurgents had convenient enemies, both in the US and in Shiite Iran/Sunni insurgents, as well as a power vacuum to operate in. Do you really think the reactionaries would get an insurgency off the ground if the house of Saud decided, over night, to run Saudi Arabia like the UAE? Perhaps they could, but Iraq is in no way illustrative of that scenario, and it is silly to pretend that it is.
Okay I really don’t have time for this right now; I will reply more later, but I wanted you to play SPECIAL ATTENTION to conflicting sects in Iraq. It is SIMILAR to what is going on in neighboring countries and IF you force people to progress, it is EXACTLY what is going to happen. So in short; NO it is not silly and YES it is entirely relevant to use Iraq to illustrate what will happen IF you forcibly impose democracy on others.
It’s that simple!
It doesn’t sound simple.
I’ll try to figure this out when you’ve had time to explain it. I want to clear one thing up tough:
I was talking about forcibly imposing gender equality, within the current authoritarian framework. I can see how democracy would tend to add militancy to existing conflicts, sectarian or tribal, less so with gender equality.
Abdullah, you said…
Are you saying that women are fundamentally less capable of driving? Or that it’s simply a short term learning curve problem?
gary
what they shud do is try implementing it in some places where every1 can drive!
not like now, where its allowed for women to drive in Compounds [where there are RARELY women involved in the accidents]
Personally I knw ladies who drive and I’ve never heard anything ‘horrible’ except sometimes when ‘outsiders’ come into campus n tell the ladies to back off [also RARE]
Statistically it’s the men who cause most of the accidents in the parts of the world where both genders are allowed to drive. So these arguments are very silly.
Men generally are better drivers (skill wise) because they have more experience pushing the envelope. They are also more accident prone for this exact reason.
Sexist response I would say. And I was talking about per capita also, not numbers… males come in as the most dangerous per capita wise and number wise…. think again.
Jina:
Men get more experience handling cars in tight situations by driving like idiots. I don’t have the numbers here, but if you look up the number of tickets given for speeding and various asshattery menn are way overrepresented.
So you agree that men are bad drivers compared with women.
I don’t know about where you guys are, but here men drive like utter pigs. Like the guy who passed a red light then honks at ME for being in the way. What a turd.
Men are by far more likely to drive recklessly, and I would rather they didn’t. We’re not less skilled, just on average less careful. If you look at a go-cart track, most of the people there will be guys, I think it’s genetic.
Are you saying that women are fundamentally less capable of driving? Or that it’s simply a short term learning curve problem?
Gary,
Abolutely no. Simply I meant, they will double the load on the roads,…
I know it’s not an intellectual reply, but Abdullah’s post above is the most moronic justification for treating women as second class citizens I’ve ever heard.Human rights are human rights. I don’t distinguish between how we treat our daughters and wives and how we treat other human beingsI guess these are two examples of the culture conflict, where we should realize our paradigm and perspectives to not miss-lead or snub us into miss-understand or miss-interoperation of OTHERS.
The CORE VALUE of Human Rights is about the freedom of making choices. Influencing others, brain washing and contrived propaganda are examples of totalitarianism & dictatorship.
(Law) any basic right or freedom to which all human beings are entitled and in whose exercise a government may not interfere (including rights to life and liberty as well as freedom of thought and expression and equality before the law).
Gary,
I wish I make it simple and clear this time.
I guess these are two examples of the culture conflict, where we should realize our paradigm and perspectives to not miss-lead or snub us into miss-understand or miss-interoperation of OTHERS.
The CORE VALUE of Human Rights is about the freedom of making choices. Influencing others, brain washing and contrived propaganda are examples of totalitarianism & dictatorship.
Drive ladies drive
Things are changing, when the time for change arrives, it is hard to control to speed of change, I do not wish to blame any one in particular for the rights denied, this is the form of life a group of people in a particular place, which will change gradually.
I was listening to Mrs. Clinton talking about a 95 year old American woman who apprached her in her campaigan, telling her When she was a minor in the USA, women didn’t have the right to vote, now she wanted to live as much as to see a woman will lead the white house.
Here in Iran girls stand outside of football stadiums. They are crazy for football, they cannot enter to cheer.
Oh this is a good one, listen,
I mean this is a question in fact. In Iran, the punitive charged for a Man being murdered intentionally or unintentionally is a money exactly double the punitive charge for a woman ( I mean the money the killer is charged with, which he is supposed to give it to the kins of the deceased). Then the punitive charge for mutilation or damaging one testicle of a man is two third of the punitive charged for a Man being killed.
Now one man’s testicle equals how many women? ( very sorry to state this, but this is true honestly)
why is the moslem world so afraid of women? or do they forget, that aisha was a modern business woman, dealing with traders and caravans on her own – and was most certainly the bread winner of her family. just learn how to drive and then appear on the road by the hundreds and have a blown up relative sitting in the back of the car… put on a mustage !
and do not forget: when god created man, she was only trying….
Rasha
I contradict with you. That is not happen now.
Don’t dream.And don’t face the social need.
sorry for that >> but this is what I think.
thank you.
Michael,
It is not even easy to make a cartoon out of it, can you make the animation? In real life it is very hard, it might lead to women’s massacre in thousands, no one wants that. Even if there the ban is lifted, there will be the extremists who will not like a woman to drive, and that would indeed make it hard to begin with, but a gradual change might seem more practical dear.
i just have a few points and questions:
1)lots of women who dont drive in saudi go for vacation and drive outside of saudi, and DONT get into accidents etcetera. so they ALREADY know how to drive.
2)insurance companies all over the world have done loads of research to save their own money, and give WOMEN DRIVERS lower premiums on the basis that women drivers are statistically proven to be safer and have less accidents
3)if the idea was to makesure the mehrem is with u, which, ok, on various levels, can be argued as justifiable, for arguments sake, why not make that the rule? that women can drive provided theres a mehrem around. what does driving have to do with anything? women were allowed to ride camels and horses right? or did they have to WALK through the desert on foot?
4)now that these recent reforms have been past, though they are still working out the infrastructure (ie: women only police stations, women only driving schools, blah blah) on a realistic time frame (not the non the nonsense euphemised for the public to think they won and shutup) for this plan to be implemented?
WILL WE EVER DRIVE ?
I suppose change is the only thing that doesn’t change and its possible that womenfolk in saudi will get to drive sooner than later. May be it’ll take a generation. With these kind of laws that strangulate one specific group– also a creation of the creator, it seems they will put prophet’s womenfolk behind the bars if they’re alive today.
had to comment and say that I really like the design on your site here. Did you create this theme yourself or did you purchase it from someone?