Is there an alternative you’d recommend?

There is no major reliable source concerning the Middle East that we can depend on for absolutely everything. You have to take bits and pieces from everywhere and come to your own conclusion. It’s hard work seeking the truth in this place, and so far no one is doing a really clean job of providing it in the mainstream. Thank god for the Internet, that’s all I can say.

Is there an alternative you’d recommend?

If you google birth rates, which aren’t hard to find since the Israeli government is keeping track of them, you’ll find that muslim birthrates are roughly double that of christian, druze, and jews.

What about the parts of Bethlehem that have been annexed by Israel? Anyone care to give a shit about them?

What? No comments about the ‘de-Christianization’ of Bethlehem by Palestinian Muslims?

Many Palestinian Christians live at peace with Muslims, even in Bethelehem. Obviously you have never been around Palestinian Christians to attest to that.

But how come this is only said when we “bitch” about Israel?

Actually, I say the same thing when people bitch about Palestinians. We just don’t get any posts complaining about them on this blog so I haven’t reacted to it. But if you read my post here, you’ll see that my views toward Palestinians also are toward developing society: http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/08/30/could-a-sovereign-palestine-sustain-itself/

If Iran did this, this thread would be full of “oh God, how horrible!” and “what can we do to help?” but somehow there is just no one doing this when it comes to Israeli human rights abuses or racism.

I guess I just see it differently. Personally, I’m burned out on all the complaining about the dysfunction between Israelis and Arabs without any real effort to foster some level of constructive engagement. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become the personal vomitorium for many people who have no organic conflict with either group, yet need to purge their hate upon someone; resulting in completely uninvolved people going out of their way to feel gutter-level bias against one or the other group. And you know what, E.? I’m just ready for some healing now. The complaining about our dysfunctional interaction has gone on in the public sphere for many years without anything coming from it, and I’ve kind of reached my saturation point. Over the years, there have been so many protests and rallies held; countless op eds; ads in newspapers; dozens of UN resolutions; committees, meetings, and gatherings held; exclusive organizations formed — all to bitch and complain about Israel and/or Palestinians with the specific intention of picking scabs and painting them in a negative light. Nothing has evolved from it and I’m just over the stagnation. Complaining about Iran and other nations may result in social change, I don’t know because the level of intensity on the international stage has not been anywhere near as high as we’ve seen between Israel and Arabs.

Personally, the only complaining I feel somewhat comfortable with at this stage is that which comes internally from a community. Everything else comes across as unproductive nagging — almost nobody is really listening, they’re just reacting. Ya gotta remember, I’m a dude from L.A., land of the Malibu sufer, so my primary motive is to figure out how we can all kick back and party.

We can’t really coexist if we aren’t aware of these things and if it weren’t for many blog posts here I would be so ignorant of other abuses that oppress Baha’is or Palestinians or Arab Jews or even immigrants. But people are always trying to somehow hush up the criticisms of Israel, even if it’s not only about war anymore but criticizing its policy as a country which we so often do here with its neighbors.

Why not debate whether or not these Christians are the victims of discrimination

There is nothing to debate, Ray. They are victims of discrimination. We have communities in conflict with each other. Lots of fear. Lots of mistrust. Lots of desperation to take care of ones own needs. Lots of being fed up and just not caring anymore out of sheer emotional exhaustion and confusion, due to no obvious light at the end of the tunnel. One group has more power than the other. The result is discrimination. What’s to discuss other than how to move foward?

It’s human nature, I guess, but fortunately we have this web site — ONE OF THE FEW — where Arabs (Christian and Muslim) join Jews and Israelis and discuss issues.

The issues I prefer to discuss are to how we can put our heads together to elevate the prosocial aspects of MENA society that can flourish if they are given the right cultivation, rather than continue to bitch about each other. This website can take the concept of coexistence much further … beyond respectful debate about all the obvious dysfunctional behavior, to one where diverse people actually cooperate to develop the region.

You are taking things out of context. No one said we didn’t appreciate the existence of such groups.

Sorry, E. That didn’t come across right. I didn’t mean to make it seem as if I were referring to you specifically. I was just using your post to highlight an issue.

The mistake here, I think, is the belief that just because I posted a note about Christians who are being persecuted, that somehow that means that I don’t care about Muslims whoa re persecuted or that I ignore the great efforts of many Israeli peace groups like BTSelem and the New Israel Fund, and others Jewish and Israeli organizations that have done great things.

The problem is instead of addressing the issue, people take it out of context and want to use it to address their own issues. Why not debate whether or not these Christians are the victims of discrimination rather than addressing saide issues like, oh, the Israeli peace movement is robust, or, Muslims are discriminated, too, or Israelis are great people, or Muslims are discriminating against Christians in Bethlehem.

It’s human nature, I guess, but fortunately we have this web site — ONE OF THE FEW — where Arabs (Christian and Muslim) join Jews and Israelis and discuss issues. We may not always agree and we may be upset with what some say, or moved to tears by what others say, but there is no other place like this in the universe where these issues can be discussed openly and without fear.

Many of the other “Arab” news sites refuse to permit Jews and Israelis to participate as bloggers — I left one a while ago, and many of the Jewish and Israeli news sites are no different, too.

The tragedy is peace is failing and we are not doing much about it anywhere else, except, in my opinion, here.

Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com

Israel has a robust infrastructure in which many human rights organizations go out of their way to provide services and to cultivate peace on behalf of their adversaries. It sure would be nice if someone would finally show some appreciation for that.

You are taking things out of context. No one said we didn’t appreciate the existence of such groups. I just think that it’s apparently lacking in this respect. Just like people tell us we’re not doing nearly enough, I don’t think Israelis are doing enough in this respect either, and especially in the blogosphere the majority to me seems to be freakishly right-wing and many are just downright abusive.

Seriously, I am so sick of hearing people complain that there aren’t any moderate Muslims or Arabs, well guess what? People all over the Arab world ask the same about Americans and Israelis. Unlike in our countries, where censorship is rampant, Americans and Israelis don’t have much of an excuse to not take part in this struggle for change.