Don’t have to wear a silk veil over your head to have a closed mind
October 3rd, 2007Of course, living in an area of one of the largest concentrations of Arabs in the Chicagoland area means that the friction between extremist Christian activists and extremists Muslim activists is going to be an everyday occurrence. And sure enough, another controversy has erupted, this time in the public schools.
As we all know, religious conservatives believe all women must wear a Hijab and that their families and children must refrain from certain Western practices like Halloween, Christmas, Valentine’s Day and, yes, the evil of all evils, eating Jello.
This being Ramadan, the cause of the conflicts, a Muslim mother said all she wanted to do was “educate” non-Muslims about her culture. Instead, Muslims at a school in the Southwest Suburb of Oak Lawn have managed to force the school board to change the school menu — dropping pork and Jello — and ,for a brief time, considered shutting down all acknowledgements of Christmas and Halloween.
Sadly, these activists should try educating themselves first about living in a country with a traditional Christian belief system. Yes, the school systems shut down for Christmas, in much the same way that Islamic society comes to halt each day during Ramadan and other Muslim Holidays. Imagine if a Christian priest in ANY Muslim country asked if the schools and government would stop celebrating religious beliefs? They would probably be attacked, imprisoned or killed just as are Muslims in Islamic countries in the past who converted to Christianity have been attacked, imprisoned and sentenced to death. Ironically, Christians are a part of the Islamic World and its not like Muslims are unfamiliar with Christian practices. But one wonders if the hypocrisy of the conflict in the Islamic World is merely played down.
It’s a pathetic double standard, but the real crime is that the Muslim extremists in the United States can’t even get their facts right. And while they demand tolerance for themselves, they refuse to acknowledge tolerance for others.
Yet, despite the extremism, at least in this instance, cooler heads prevailed and the school boards refused to eliminate Christmas observance and Halloween.
Here are some links to some of the stories for background, but the television reports have been the most frightening as extremists on both sides let their emotions out last night screaming at each other over the issues:
Some facts:
There are about 7 million Muslims in the United States, but only 22-24 percent are Arab.
There are about 4.5 million Arabs in the United States, and the majority, more than 60 percent, are Christian.
Chicago has more than 250,000 Arabs, with the largest concentration on the Southwest Side, about 70 percent ar Palestinian, followed by large groups of Lebanese, the first settlers, and by Jordanians (my book “Arabs of Chicagoland,” Arcadia Publishing, gives the historical details on all of the major Arab settlers from the turn of the 20th century Chicago.)
Halloween is NOT a day when children worship the devil. Hundreds if not thousands of years ago, Pagans celebrated the Devil but Halloween was established by the Catholic Church as a counter to chase away the devils. It happens that Halloween is held the same time as the old long-gone Pagan celebrations and many Muslims, who do not know anything about Christian religious beliefs, sadly, insist that Halloween is the modernday practice of devil worship. Last time I looked, “Trick or treat, smell my feet, give me something good to eat” was not a spell for the Devil. Rather than close their drapes and lock their doors and tell their children this is a devil-worship holiday (as they in fact do), Muslims should allow their children to wear costumes that are among the most popular, clowns, cheerful icons and other non-demon-like masks. They can even paint their face in fun — and the last I heard, fun has not yet been banned as “haram” in the Islamic World.
Santa Clause and Christmas trees are associated with Christmas, one of the holiest religious celebrations for Christians each year, but they are secular symbols, not religious icons of the religious observation. Christmas Trees were created and so was the image of Santa Claus to help children understand the special belief during Christmas that Christians recognize the sacrifices of Jesus and extend generosity and a hand of friendship, through gift-giving, to others. Christians and non-Christians alike. It is a traditional Christian act to give presents at Christmas not just to Christians but to non-Christians, too.
Valentine’s Day is high on the hit list of extremist Muslims in America, because the day recognize the special relationship between human beings who have affection for each other. But rather than be the dirty image portrayed by some Imam’s in the Chicagoland area and around the country, Valentine’s Day is a secular day when people who care for others extend a hand in friendship and “love” to their husbands, wives, girlfriends and boyfriends (the real operative words the extremists hate), and to brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors and to strangers. Children give Valentine’s Day Cards to other children because it is FUN.
Schools with large Muslim populations already ban the serving of pork, and while that is a disgusting infringement on the rights of other people to deny food items from a menu because certain families dislike it for religious reasons, it has been tolerated. And, the schools have also dropped Jello, and to be honest I am tired of listening to why extremist Muslims don’t like Jello any more. It’s pathetic.
The truth is the real target of these extremists is “fun.” They live their lives demanding that societies around them acknowledge their rights and tolerate their differences, but as soon as they can muster a voice, they turn around and try to impose their views on every one else.
Fortunately, the Muslim mother who initiated this latest round of hate-sparking controversy, has backed down, claiming now that all she ever wanted to do was include Ramadan observances at the school — which was being done. They already allow, and rightly so, Muslim children to take time out during lunch to observe their fasting requirements and to even pray, something Christian kids are only allowed to do on their own time and not designated by a school official. And, the woman was allowed to put up a Ramadan display to educate others about Ramadan.
The school board, after a heated meeting last night where fanatics on both sides rose to scream at each other and accuse each other of racism — nice lesson being taught here — decided NOT to cancel Christmas, at least not this year. And Halloween celebrations for the children will continue.
More encouraging was that there are a growing number of Moderate Muslims and Moderate Christians who observe their religious beliefs without demanding that they be imposed on each other, who stood up and criticized the mother and those who said Christmas and Halloween should be cancelled. If you oppose Halloween — and many Christians also oppose Halloween because they dislike children wearing scary and monster costumes, not because of the unrelated Pagan rituals from the historical past of Europe (not even the United States), then don’t celebrate it — don’t go as far to shut the door on someone who does celebrate it.
During Ramadan, should Christians close their drapes and lock their doors and teach their children that the month-long holiday is sacrilegious? No. They should welcome Muslims who celebrate Ramadan with open arms, and teach their children about Ramadan so that we can live in a world that is more educated and tolerant. And Christians should learn more about Ramadan and all of the Islamic holidays if they insist on declaring themselves the “leaders of the free world.”
America is NOT a Christian nation as extremist presidential candidate John McCain has declared. It IS a FREE NATION where people of all religious have the right to celebrate their holidays and religious beliefs in freedom without oppression. Just don’t force anyone to do anything they don’t want to do.
And by the way, in this whole debate, I did not hear one Muslim, or many Christians, stand up for the rights of Jews who for years celebrated the Hanukkah quietly while Christians loudly celebrated Christmas.
The real tragedy here is this stupid debate continues in part because moderate Muslims refuse to stand up and tell the extremists in their communities to shut up and sit down. And it has become ammunition for the growing number of Christian fanatics who are all over the web predicting doom and gloom because a few Muslims are asking that their religious beliefs be accommodated, too. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck — the loser hate-mongers that they are, continue to promote extremist responses to false issues. The Muslims complaining about Christmas are not representative of all Muslims. But then, you don’t have to wear a silk veil over your face to have a closed mind.
Ray Hanania
www.ArabWritersGroup.com
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Great post Ray. Very interesting situation in Chicago. What the heck is wrong with Jello?!
I feel strangely indifferent to those bigots on cable television because I know that they are countered and checked when and where it matters. AS divisive and ignorant as they are, the best way to combat them is to let them talk. their ignorance and prejudices precede them and your average person knows this.
According to recent study there are actually around 3 million Muslims – not 7 million.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.html
There’s a more recent study, but I can’t find it.
I think gelatin has some sort of pork in it.
Yeah, pork skin and cattle bones, according to this site.
I never liked it anyway…
Those extremists you mentioned Ray are Salafis nutjobs. Most Muslims are traditional Sunnis or Sufis in America.
BANNING HALLOWEEN??? O YEAH????? well, you know what I’m gonna do? Come the 31st I’m gonna have 200 glowing skulls on my lawn baby! I’m gonna have a dozen ghosts hanging off the front tree! I’m gonna have spider webs, vampires that spring outta the ground at you, spooky music and a great big pumpkin pyramid in the driveway! I’m gonna get that dancing witches backlight for the front window, and a GIANT INFLATABLE SATAN for the front porch roof! And right across the front lawn in glowing purple bats I’m gonna write “Happy Halloween to the local Islamic Community!” & every kid who comes to my front door is gonna get enough candy to stun a goat. No crappy granola bars or apple chips either, but the kinda candy they hoard for months afterward and fight each other at recess for! And why am I doing this? Because back when I was a kid in old tightass Canada, the adults understood that the world was a cold, dangerous enough place without taking away one of the only traditions that let kids know that they didn’t have to be afraid or behaved all of the time, that sometimes it was ok to go out at night, run around like little maniacs and have some fun. And, when my daughter is old enough to go out (she’s a lil mermaid this year)I’m gonna chaperone her and her friends as late as they want. And any religious WHINER who so much as says Boo to me about it or have a problem with her wearing her costume to school…
Hey Eric … chill. It’s not ALL Muslims, just a small group. But keep in mind MANY Christians also oppose Halloween. But, I agree with you that Halloween is a KIDS HOLIDAY and not a day of devil worship
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Uh, many “moderate” Muslims have been standing up to them.
Here’s a few examples:
Ali Eteraz
Jihad of Umar
Tariq Nelson
keeping pork off the menu makes sense if a lot of kids aren’t eating it: i’m assuming at the school caf there’s only one option for the day plus a lot of jews don’t eat it either.
Origin: Celtic observation of Samhain
According to what can be reconstructed of the beliefs of the ancient Celts, the bright half of the year ended around November 1 or on a moon-phase near that date, or at the time of first frost. The day is referred to in modern Gaelic as Samhain (”Sow-in” or alternatively “Sa-ven”, meaning: End of the Summer). After the adoption of the Roman calendar with its fixed months, the date began to be celebrated independently of the Moon’s phases.
As October 31 is the last day of the bright half of the year, the next day also marked the beginning of winter, which the Celts often associated with death, and with the slaughter of livestock to provide meat for the coming winter. The Celts believed that on October 31, the boundary separating the dead from the living became blurred. There is a rich and unusual myth system at work here; the spirit world, the residence of the “Sídhe”, as well as of the dead, was accessible through burial mounds. These mounds were opened twice during the year, on Samhain and Beltane, making the beginning and end of summer spiritually resonant.
The Celts’ survival during the harsh winters depended on the prophecies of their priests and priestesses (druids), and the accurate prediction of how much food would be needed to sustain the populace before the next harvest. They believed that spirits would aid in making accurate predictions about the coming year.
sounds pretty boring and unsatanic to me.
Also I thought most gelatin products used synthetic collagen these days.
Hey Danial … not in Chicago! It’s one thing to stand up someplace else and Applaud these people — But I have never heard of them. Of course, I’m a journalis and I don’t read much
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Ray, here’s an example of an American Muslim speaking out against wannabe e-jihadis.
And as for Chicago, I guess the ISNA isn’t good enough?
Sadly, not all of those who speak out last long enough to be heard:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018328.php
Ray,
Are there any Muslims demanding a stop to the mass killings, and the destruction of property and infrastructure in Iraq and Aghanistan?
How come the Christian fundamentalists in America don’t speak up about the Congo? This Christian region is where the most number of killings and rapes occur. Not too much attention is paid to it because the United States, Israel, and Europe benefit from the diamonds, natural resources, and sales of weapons.
Don’t you think the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC should have an exhibit commemorating the 3 to 5 million Vietnamese and Cambodians killed by the United States?
PARANOID, you wrote, “According to recent study there are actually around 3 million Muslims – not 7 million.”
Isn’t it interesting how we don’t have an exact number for how many Muslims are in the Untied States, yet we have an exact number about the number of Jews that were killed during the Holocaust? Was there an exact number known for how many Jews lived in Europe before the Holocaust? If there was, how come we can’t be as accurate in the 21st century, as we were in the 20th century?
How come we don’t have an exact number for those killed when the United States bombed Vietnam and Cambodia? How many deaths is Joseph Stalin responsible for? How come we don’t have an exact number for any other genocide or atrocity?
Nice point but what did ISNA, a Muslim organization, say about extremist Arabs? I do distinguish between Arabs and Muslims, although not everyone else does. Most Arabs in the United States are actually Christian, a fact few acknowledge. Still, ISNA also has many extremists attend their meetings. So, what is it exactly that you are saying about ISNA. I’m curious to know. They don’t represent Arabs at all, just Muslims. And I know it may not be so clear (given that the two terms are so interchanged and miused) but the column above does address mainly Arab Muslims.
Hey Randall … why do we have to mix things in order to justify them. Why should the Holocaust museum address anything else except the Holocaust slaughter of Jews by the Nazis before and during World War II? I think that we do know many others were murdered during the Holocaust, too … but if the Jewish people have come together an dused their resources to recognize their suffering, good for them. Why don’t Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and others do the same and precisely pin down statistics? I don’t know the answer to that, except that I do know from experience that many Arabs and Muslims don’t work together … Islamicists do not work with secular Arabs, for example.
There are no exact numbers for Arabs and Muslims because the United States doesn’t specifically seek us out in the census in a formal way … there are methods in the census to extrapolate numbers … but I follow the numbers offered by the Arab American Institute on Muslims and Arabs. And I did an extensive study on the number of Arabs in the six county Chicagoland area back in 2000 which is on my website at http://www.hanania.com (under community history) …
Thanks
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Ray,
The Holocaust Museum and its website does have exhibits about other genocides, like Rwanda, the Armenians, Dafur, etc. I think I saw on its website something about the Congo. But it doesn’t acknowledge the role of Israel, the United States, and Europe in fueling and perpetuating the violence, while exploiting the natural resource in the Congo.
ISNA is mainly dominated by South Asian Muslims. I haven’t been to an ISNA gathering, so I’m speaking from anecdotal evidence from friends who attend ISNA conventions every year, and it’s hardly extremist. Hell, I know there’s another nickname for the convention, and that is “Innumerable Sluts Now Available” due to the fact that the convention is basically a meat market nowadays hahaha
If you want to go further, ask why don’t evangelical Christians condemn the Lord’s Resistance Army, a Christian group aimed at establishing Biblical Law in Uganda by any means necessary.
Randall Jones said:
You keep harping on this, “exact number” thing with the Holocaust, and dragging Jews into conversations about non-Jews. Well, Randall. What IS the exact number of Jews killed in the Holocaust since you insist there is one, and that it’s supposedly some sort of proof of special treatment for them? The US Holocaust Museum even says that the number falls within a range, but somehow, you are certain that there is an “exact number” to the point where you’re compulsive about it. This isn’t the first time you’ve done this.
So what is it, bro? I think it’s time for you to put up or shut up. Show us what you’re worth. Your credbility is on the line. And if you can’t find an exact number after having been so certain and insistent, then it’s clear that you cannot be trusted whatsoever; and that your mission is to spread propaganda, lies, and ultimately, hate and rivalry.
This has been a PeacefulVanguard public service announcement.
I’m completely with PV on this one. Randall, your comments are starting to become more and more disturbing. You seem to be on some kind of a vendetta and the theme is always the same, no matter what the post is actually about. All this finger-pointing is distasteful and doesn’t serve the purpose of constructive dialogue. Could you maybe try to stick to discussing the topic at hand?
I agree with PV and Sheema. This is one of my favorite sites to read except when Randal starts up with his links and comments that are generally completely irrelevant to the topic at hand
Yeah I agree with the last two comments.
“Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck – the loser hate-mongers that they are” What exactly makes them hate mongers? Their hate for Islamists? Hannity and Beck promote moderate Muslims every chance they get. I hate Islamists more than Limbaugh, Hannity or Beck ever will. Does this make me a hate monger?
Khalim Massoud
Muslims Against Sharia
Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck hate Arabs and Muslims and bring on token Muslims and Arabs to counter the criticism and only started inviting moderate Muslims on the show in order to make themselves look great … it’s not about hating Sharia law, which is in effect religious politics, but the hating of people and the stereotyping of people … now, if you see an Arab or a Muslim and say they are terrorists because of the way they look — as Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck HAVE DONE int he past, then yes, you would be a racist bigot. But simply opposing Sharia law is a non-issue in this debate. These bigots have led the hate Arab and hate Muslim movements in the United States and have denied Palestinian rights, the rights of Arabs and Muslims in general … but then, they don’t just slander us, although they do slander us the most. Beck is the most naseaus of them all, a real phony hypocrite.
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Oh God now I really know you’re a neo-con shill. You’re nothing but a fake-ass. Shame on you.
Ray,
“Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck hate Arabs and Muslims” can you please provide a specific example? Calling them racist is just silly. Even if they did hate all Arabs and all Muslims, neither of these groups is a race. Calling them bigot just for advocating profiling is stupid. I look Middle Eastern, and when I get pulled over by TSA, I don’t get pissed, but when they let me through and start frisking an 80-year-old grandmother, I get worried. People, who are most likely to blow me up, look like me. This is not bigotry; this is a fact of life. Is it an inconvenience? Yes. Is it an insult? Absolutely not! As for Palestinian rights, pa-leese! Just because they think that Jews also have rights doesn’t make them bigots. Besides, Muslims under Jews are much better off than Jews under Muslims. And in a lot of instances, Muslims under Jews are better off than Muslims under Muslims. I, or especially my wife, would rather live in Israel than in Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Khalim
“now I really know you’re a neo-con shill. You’re nothing but a fake-ass.” Why am I not surprised? When someone is too stupid to discuss the issue, they have the urge to discredit the messenger. If you ARE the Mideast Youth, our future looks pretty bleak.
Danial does not speak for us all and rest assured we will all express our impassioned opinions. In any case, the 3 mentioned do have agendas and although they may side with moderate Muslims, I can almost guarantee that they do it because they have to or the FCC would fine them for speaking what they really think. Those three are not open to discussion or dialog.
In any case, we like to say that we are here.
And Danial, lets try to keep it respectful. If you want to refute his claim, don’t revert to name calling, it really discredits everything else.
Omid Townsend
Moderator/Legal Advisor, MEY
Omid,
Everybody in the media has an agenda. I’ve watched/heard enough hours of Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck, but I failed to see their anti-Muslim / anti-Arab agenda. They definitely have anti-Islamist agenda, but shouldn’t we all have it?
“Those three are not open to discussion or dialog.” Beck went to Secular Islam Summit, which I’m sure he didn’t have to do, FCC or no FCC. I saw him interviewing Dr. Tawfik Hamid and CAIR’s Bedier. Bedier (just like Danial) claimed that Hamid is not a real Muslim and knows nothing about Islam.
Khalim
can you please provide a specific example?
When Glenn Beck asked the Muslim Congressman to prove he wasn’t working for the enemy. I don’t watch the other two.
nadia
“can you please provide a specific example?
When Glenn Beck asked the Muslim Congressman to prove he wasn’t working for the enemy.”
Considering Ellison’s Islamist ties, I hardly consider this question inappropriate. Furthermore, I firmly believe that nobody, Muslim or non-Muslim, who is in bed with radical Islam should have a post in government, even less Federal government.
I didn’t see the Beck interview, but if he really asked Ellison for proof of innocence that’s far over the line in the US for reasons that have nothing to do with race.
What are his Islamist ties? Beck didn’t mention any.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JegKCAO6N7I
Here it is. All he mentioned preceding the question was a)his religion, b)that he was a democrat c)that he wanted to pull out of Iraq.
nadia,
“What are his Islamist ties? Beck didn’t mention any.”
CAIR, MAS, ISNA. I’m sure I can find more if I dig.
Quoting Beck: “I know Muslims, I like Muslims … I really don’t believe that Islam is a religion of evil” What an asshole! I see your point now, he really is an Islamophobe.
But seriously, don’t you think that non-Muslim Americans might have a reason to question Muslim American’s loyalty when we are at war with radical Islam and half of American Muslims say that they are Muslim first, American second?
There’s nothing in either of your comments that’s even worth responding to.
Well, if you don’t consider CAIR, MAS, and ISNA terrorist fronts and if you don’t think that we, as a community, deserve some blame for turning a blind eye, then I’d have to refer you to my “bleak future” comment.
Wow, you guys are still posing as Muslims? I thought you’d give up once you’re ousted.
Like Omid said, you must be a weak irrational tool if you think my opinions represent the site. I’m just a poster here, there are plenty of people on here with different views.
Is labelling everything as monolithic the only thing you guys can do?
LOL now I heard it all. Ellison is now an Islamist, despite the fact that he supports Israel’s right to exist and is an advocate of gay rights.
Surely you would know that Ellison has been denounced by al-Qaeda supporters as being a kaafir. Tariq Nelson has more:
Yeah, he surely has ties to Islamists. Who would have thought despite being condemned as a “Jewish Muslim” that he would still have ties to “Islamists”.
*yawn find some new material
I have met Evangelical Christians who consider themselves Christians first and American second so perhaps you should also chastize them as well?
BTW, ever heard of this hadith: “hub ul-watan min al-iman”? It translates to “love of your country is part of the deen (faith)”.
“I have met Evangelical Christians who consider themselves Christians first and American second” – this is just as wrong. However, it is relevant for two reasons. First, not too many Christians have been flying planes into buildings lately, second Christians should clean up their own shit, we have ours to be concerned with.
“the first Jewish Muslim that goes to Congress.” The only think that is proven by the fact that many Jews voted for Ellison, is that Jews can be as stupid and ignorant as everyone else. Not many Jews would have voted for him if they knew that one of his main backers was CAIR
Out of curiosity, is there a Muslim organization in this world that you actually support?
Islamophobia is a huge disease of this century and the root cause of much of the hatred that we as Muslims are facing worldwide. Real Muslims oppose it, not justify it. Real Muslims are against Islamic extremism, not the Qur’an.
My love is for Allah and the message that is the Qur’an. The qur’an is the only book in existence today that has been in publication for 1400 years unchanged. In it, you will find tolerance for “people of the book” Jews and Christians, for we sprang from the Old Testament and can trace the lineage all the way to Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon Him). I suggest that everyone take an interest in Judaism, Christianity and Islam for the sake of educating oneself. I am a former US Navy Officer, and I flew FA-18C for 12 years, and our objectives were never targeted at Islam, but at terrorist and extremist operations. Islam just so happens to be a faith practiced by these groups (even if it is a weird/distorted view of Islam). If you really look further, you will even see Muslim imams who are serving as members of the US military clergy.
Stamping out Islamophobia starts with education and promoting/encouraging “no fear” in wanting to learn about true Islam.
Dawoud, nice link to 180sfaktory
Muslims against sharia, wrote, “not too many Christians have been flying planes into buildings lately,”
Are you aware their is a growing grass roots movement (many non-Muslim)that are questioning the media’s official explanation/investigation of 9/11? DO a Google search for the film “Loose Change” about 9/11, you can see it for free.
Here is important information I posted on my blog about Usama Ben Laden. http://gettingtruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/where-was-osama-ben-laden-on-sept-11.html
“Out of curiosity, is there a Muslim organization in this world that you actually support?” That may surprise you, but we actually do. However, you would probably claim that those organizations are non-Muslim either: AIFD, Arabs for Israel, Muslim World Today, Secular Islam Summit, SEMUS.
“Islamophobia is a huge disease of this century” “Real Muslims oppose it, not justify it.” No, dumb Muslims just oppose it, without doing anything about it. Smart Muslims are trying to eliminate the basis for Islamophobia. If we do that, Islamophobia will disappear from public arena and will be confined groups like KKK.
“Real Muslims are against Islamic extremism, not the Qur’an.” We are not against the Koran. We are against parts of it that provide basis for Islamic extremism.
What’s funny is that explaining to you that our views do not render us non-Muslim, is about as easy as explaining a redneck who thinks that “once Mohammedan is always a Mohammedan” a difference between Islam and Islamism. At least the rednecks have an excuse; their inherited bigotry, third-grade education, and an IV filled with beer do not provide for high expectations. What’s yours?
Dawoud, we agree with everything you said except for “The qur’an … for 1400 years unchanged.” Please look at http://reformislam.org/verses.php and tell me how Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate could possibly be the author of that.
“Are you aware their is a growing grass roots movement (many non-Muslim)that are questioning the media’s official explanation/investigation of 9/11?” This “movement” proves that non-Muslims are not exempt from being idiots, which is not really a big secret.
PeacefulVanguard, wrote, “You keep harping on this, “exact number” thing with the Holocaust, and dragging Jews into conversations about non-Jews. Well, Randall. What IS the exact number of Jews killed in the Holocaust since you insist there is one, and that it’s supposedly some sort of proof of special treatment for them? The US Holocaust Museum even says that the number falls within a range, but somehow, you are certain that there is an “exact number” to the point where you’re compulsive about it. This isn’t the first time you’ve done this.”
The “exact number” given by mainstream historians and media is six million. What is the range that the Holocaust Museum gives?
Muslims Against Sharia,
Did you read the link I put on OBL? TheFBI’s website doesn’t even include 9/11 on Usam Ben Laden’s webpage.
You have to be an idiot to think that the people will believe your website is run by Muslims.
“You have to be an idiot to think that the people will believe your website is run by Muslims.” Have you ever considered a possibility that we might not give a crap what some conspiracy theorist think about our site? People, who agree that Islam must be reform, do not question out faith. People, who question our faith, do not think that Islam needs to be reformed. We don’t really have a goal to convince people of anything. Our goal is to give voice to people that already know what they want. So, give me one god reason why should we give a crap about someone when their opinions mean nothing to us?
Who is “we”? It is an individual thing. You can ask the same for the Old Testament and the New Testament. You can even question how we came to be and even question our own existence. Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Loving gave you one thing that is either a gift in your hand or the source of your own undoing- freedom of choice, the freedom to question, the freedom to live as you wish. I choose to accept certain principles, as you do you. I am educated, reasonably intelligent and I know what my heart tells me. Yes, Allah did write that book. Say what you will, but my faith is personal and is simple.
Conspiracy… I could have told you that two medium sized passenger aircraft could not possibly have caused the demise of the Twin Towers. Both buildings came down not from fire, water or the aircraft weakening the base of the towers. Those buildings went down via explosive charges ala demolition experts. The Pentagon hit by another commercial aircraft? The remnants of the stuff outside the Pentagon were not of the type of aircraft that supposedly hit it. As a former strike/fighter pilot, I do recognize engines, and those turbine blades, which are made of inconel (can’t melt them via fire) are not from the aircraft in question. Also, why wasn’t there any damage leading up to the point of impact? The angle of attack that this supposed aircraft took, would have taken out some cars and a light poles and would have tore up the ground just prior to the building. The supposed terrorist pilot would have had to have more experience to have taken a higher angle of attack and smash it into that wall. A multi-engine aircraft is not an easy aircraft to control. With only training in a small aircraft with basic instruments, there’s no way that this guy could have successfully controlled the aircraft. That aircraft would have been “porpoising” all over the place, and my money is that if this really did go down, this guy would have put it into the dirt well before the Pentagon. A few hours in a Cessna will not give you the precision skills neded to do something like what was said. Anyway, say this guy did do it. At the airspeed that is required, debris from the aircraft would have flown over the Pentagon and would have been found in a spread pattern. I’ve always known it was a conspiracy.
It’s very disappointing that such a great site seems to attract some very dysfunctional individuals who fill the comments section with so much trash.
Anyways, here’s a legit source (Popular Mechanics) debunking a lot of the crap that’s been floating around with the 9-11 conspiracy nut jobs.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1
Here’s a government link ( which of course wouldn be unacceptable to come folks…): http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
And while this goes against academic training for citing more established sources, here’s a guy who dedicated a whole web page for debunking Loose Change and all that nonsense:
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
This is all I will post about this… Honestly, this type of continuous junk being spewed ruins the opportunity to have real discourse and discussion about some interesting topics. It might also get people turned off and not visit the site either.
Ah shoot… spelling errors.
Corrected:
( which of course wouldn’t be unacceptable to some folks…)
Arg, again. Never mind. Too tired. Will stop my procrastination then. Cheer all.
Well there’s a lot of dysfunctional commenters around here. Randall aside, I regret ever linking to the Muslims Against Sharia site, such a brainwashing team of non-Muslims who prance around thinking they have a lick of credibility.
So much for tolerance and mutual understanding, eh?
Please go back to your sorry excuse for a website and stop trashing ours. Thanks!
Dawoud, I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t be calling yourself educated or intelligent and discuss 9/11 conspiracy theories in the same post.
Arabs for Israel is not a Muslim organization. At least TRY to come off as credible, put in some extra effort mate and stop being such a Little Green Footballer! And be respectful to others instead of calling them uneducated or unintelligent.
Seriously, your website is sad, your comments here are disrespectful if not even hateful and no one at all buys that you’re Muslim, so why do you keep coming back?
Well, propagandists are usually paid or have too much time on their hands, what can we do? We just have to live with their shallow idiocy.
“Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Loving gave you one thing”
Yeah, “and kill them wherever you find them”, this is a loving and compassionate as it gets. I’m sorry if the fact that I refuse to believe that this crap could come from Allah makes me a non-Muslim in your eyes. Wouldn’t it be plausible that this was inserted by some Wahhabi-like war monger some when during the last 1400 years?
You don’t even know me or the sum of my experiences. Why ae you so pompous? What experience do you bring in relation to 9/11?
I have believed it to be a conspiracy well before the incidents were being called a conspiracy. Are you familiar with aviation, laying down ordnance and taking something out with precision-guided weapons first hand? I am. I have over 3000 flight hours logged, 1010 carrier traps/landings and I am a certified aviation accident scene/mishap investigator. Yeah, I’m not smart nor can my testimony be credible. Until you have done the things I have done, until you carry the same credentials, don’t consider yourself an expert on things I know firsthand. I’ve seen the tapes, was in the vicinity of the Pentagon at the time the “crash” supposedly happened. Reread what I wrote before you start throwing rocks.
You may have succeeded at fooling yourself into believing that you’re a Muslim (even though hardly anybody buys it!) but you are certainly not succeeding at fooling us or anyone else with the brain cells required to see right through your ignorance and website scam.
Seriously, you should just give up, because we’re not buying it nor are we interested in your tomfoolery.
MAS, if you hate our religion so much you should just leave it. We won’t let you change it especially since you’re clearly some Islamophobic bigot who has no idea what he is talking about. Leave our religion alone and go get yourself a job with Jihad Watch or something.
One carrier landing for every three hours of flight time?
Dawoud,
I knew something suspicious was going on when on 9/11, Israel released a video that was shown around the world, a video that allegedly showed Palestinians cheering about the WTC attack. On television they showed a split screen, on one side was the destroyed WTC towers and on the other side was the cheering Palestinians. I thought to myself, we are in shock about planes being flown into the towers and who knows how many people had died, yet all Israel was concerned about was demonizing the Palestinians. The video could have been shown on another day.
Ironically, the story of the Israelis cheering on 9/11 did not get the same type of attention. They were caught in New Jersey dancing and cheering while filming themselves, with the WTC towers in the background.
See these videos
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=575834042418696847
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6110095161238848541
There were also Israelis that were also caught on 9/11 in a van with explosives headed for the George Washington Bridge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2nVkN983fU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7-hSEyVDz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFImTQm6Kk
Muslim Against Sharia,
Your website does a lot of backing and promoting of Israel’s views and actions, yet you have nothing to say about Judaism and the Talmud. Read “Judaism’s Strange Gods” by Michael A. Hoffman. Where you will find information about Judaism the mainstream media won’t tell you about. For example in the Talmud,
“You don’t even know me or the sum of my experiences.” I’m sure your experiences are extremely impressive and mine may not mean anything, except for one little thing, I was in Crystal City on September 11.
“if you hate our religion so much you should just leave it.”
I don’t hate my religion; I want to save it from the likes of you.
“When a Jew murders a gentile there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.” When I wrote Christians should clean up their own shit, it meant everyone should clean up their own shit, Jews, etc. I’m not going to enumerate every religion. And if you are so concern about this, post it on Jewish forums. What is the point of posting it here? If someone is an asshole it is OK for me to be one too?
No. Your experiences do mean something, but don’t throw rocks. You started it by basically saying I am uneducated and not intelligent. I am not a Rhodes scholar, but I am average.
It seems to be so (1 trap for every three hours). A lot of flying, especially during deployments. I’m not even counting my hours from basic through advanced. It’s ancient history to me now.
Take it for what it’s worth.
Esra’a, I apologize for adding fuel to the fire here. Not gonna comment any further for I am over this thread.
Muslims Against Sharia,
SO why does your supposedly Muslim website back up everything that Israel has done?
Why have you not condemned the funding and collaboration of Western countries with Muslim extremists? See See this article Today’s “Islamic Fascists’ Were Yesterday’s Friends at http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=9615
Nice try, but it’s not your religion if you disagree enough to insist on changing it. Echoing Salama: leave our religion alone. We have enough abusive bigots attacking it and we don’t need some self-important loners pose as Muslims on the internet thinking anyone is actually going to fall for it. We don’t. Hardly anyone does, except for your over-zealous Islamophic friends, and I’m sure they too have their doubts.
Do us all a favor, just switch your name to “Pseudo-Muslims Against the Qur’aan” and get it over with. Stop wasting your time and ours by continuing to embarrass yourself here.
Dawoud, if you claim that you were in the vicinity of the Pentagon at the time of the crash, than you know that all those conspiracy theories are bullshit. The fact that you keep talking about them raises legitimate questions about your intelligence.
Congress Crosses the Line. Where is the Outrage?
Muslims Against Sharia condemn politically correct cowardice of the United States Congress. We call on every American Muslims to contact their congressmen, and voice their disgust with Congress’ blatant disregard for the United States Constitution.
Congressional Resolution HRES 635 EH:
“House of Representatives … acknowledges the onset of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal”
First Amendment to the United States Constitution:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
In the garbage where it belongs.
Seriously, find a new hobby.
Congress mandates Holocaust education in grades K-12; science and math requirements to be dropped. New legislation would also replace arts and crafts in senior citizens’ homes with workshops on Holocaust denial.
See http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=97
Muslim Against Sharia where is the outrage?
Well, propagandists are usually paid or have too much time on their hands, what can we do?
Moderate off topic comments.
Seriously I don’t know what’s going on here. Can’t a religious guy not eat jello in peace without having his head bored off?
nadia,
I am sorry that the idea of Islamic equality is so repulsive to you, you find it propagandistic. I guess we’ll have to wait for the next 9/11 for you to realize that Islamic supremacy is a dead end.
Anyone who wishes for another 9/11 to put people in their place is quite appalling.
Cut the charade and go back to licking the boots of Lizardoids.
Danial,
I do not wish for another 9/11, I am just being realistic. Anyone who believes that the next, worse, attack is not coming is living in “danial”. I pray that I am wrong. However, I wouldn’t expect anything less from a degenerate like you.
Such a “good” Muslim you truly are.
Go crawl back into your hole you came from. Go back to wacking off to Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter, faggot.
“Such a “good” Muslim you truly are.” I’m sorry; does this mean that as a good Muslim I am supposed to take the insults without responding? That might work with Christian targets of your pathetic verbal excrements, but I’m not about to turn the other cheek. And only a true genius would suggest to wack off to a girl and call someone a faggot. Oh, the legendary Islamofascist tolerance, you homophobic scumbag! May the camel rupture your anus next time you engage in the unholy congress.
Ann Coulter is really a man.
MAS,
Stay on topic or leave. Simple as.
I believe that tolerance will come about over time and generations. Maybe not in this lifetime, but in the lifetime of our children and their children. Where do we start? We start right here. It seems that some people will jack a thread regardless of the agenda, but looking beyond that and getting back to the topic, I am fairly confident that tolerance will come about from more positive exposure, and that will definitely have to come from the communities. Reliance on the news is not the way. News is in the business of making money reporting on other people’s suffering and it is slanted. That’s not just a North American phenomena, but a world one. Here in Bahrain, we can read newspapers about a topic and then compare it to other papers, as well as online and on TV, and the stories are never 100 percent spot on. As a father and a grandfather, I definitely want a world that is safer for them than it is right now.
Hopefully, we can have some healthy dialogue on this subject.
Hey MAS … you really do embarass those Muslims who are against extremist religioud doctrine. People think that the legitimate complaints against excessive Islamic religious decrees are like you, someone who doesn;t hesitate to use foul language, disgusting descriptions. Psychologists would say that people who use such language or who avoid addressing issues and turn attacks into a personal thing know their views are wrong so they make up by distracting people with ugly disgusting language. Mosy people I think would ignore someone who uses such poor judgment. If you really cared about the issue you would change. But then, maybe the issue is not the real topic of your disgusting language.
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Danial
“Ann Coulter is really a man.” You got it partially right. She’s is more of a man than you will ever be.
Dawoud
“I believe that tolerance will come about over time and generations.” We have no time to wait. One or two 9/11-type events and there will be mass Muslim genocide all throughout the West. If we don’t fight extremist with all we can, we might as well invest in some beachfront property in Antarctica. You think the Jews had it bad in Nazi Germany? Go to http://www.haloscan.com/comments/rednecktexan/8945057620142870872/?src=hsn and see what the future holds. “I am fairly confident that tolerance will come about from more positive exposure” If you look at this thread, you can see that the only reason I came under attack is because of my opinions are different than those of the attackers. Either I misunderstand the definition of tolerance or the users of this site are not that tolerant. What do you think the chances are of intolerant people being able to “to eliminate extremist ideologies and ignorance”?
Ray Hanania
“Psychologists would say use foul language” I appreciate your extensive expertise in psychology, but you might want to consider another psychological concept: double standards. You seem to have no problem when someone who disagrees with your views is being insulted. But when that someone dares to respond in kind, it is so inappropriate! But I do not blame you, because you, because when it comes to Muslims, you seem to represent the rule rather than exception. However, I failed to see the reason why when we do something wrong, it is OK, but when someone else does, it is unacceptable. This site is supposedly a “network dedicated to eliminate extremist ideologies and ignorance from the Middle East.” Are you really that blinded by your own hypocrisy? How do you expect to eliminate extremist ideologies if you think that someone who thinks like you can do no wrong?
Pagans don’t worship the devil, Satanists worship the devil. VERY different, look up your information before you post it.
I am definitely not for extremists of any religious or political cause, since it is usually those factions that resort to terror to make their point. We’ve seen it in Northern Ireland (thankfully, they now talk and don’t promote violence anymore), the Basque Separatists, the Jewish sector in pre-Israel Palestine and the list goes on to the present situation. Violence is usually countered with other acts of violence. Humans have not reached that level of sophistication where we can agree to disagree without knocking someones lights out. That is why I am saying change starts in the communities and with people in it who share the same ideologies as others in different communities. It has to be a willful effort to actually give a s*** about how the world is doing and to make it a place where future generations can live in harmony. It’s not an easy stance to take and to constantly promote, but it has to be done. It’s not gonna happen in our governments because our governments are filled with self-serving types. Show me one government in existence today that is not corrupt to some extent. It happens when a parent teaches a child that it is ok to play with that other kid who doesn’t have the same color skin, that it’s ok to listen to stories of the creation told by people of different religious backgrounds, that it is ok to be different and so on. I wish it were as easy as snapping my fingers and all these problems in the world disappeared, but that’s not reality or the human experience.
Don’t flatter yourself kid, you’ve been attacked by pretty much everybody because you’re being offensive and insulting. If you have nothing but disrespect and inconsideration of others then please do leave and spare us your incessant whining.
Dawoud,
I agree with everything you stated in your last post, but I have a feeling there are still things that we disagree on, i.e., your perception of the events of 9/11. I suggest you visit our blog at http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/, pick an item that you find the most outrageous and we can discuss it like adults. Unfortunately some morons on this blog are not interesting in arguments they know they cannot win.
Esra’a
You must be not terribly bright if you fail to grasp a concept of a timeline. First personal attack towards me on this blog occurred on 05.10.07 at 21:48 MDT. I’d like you to find anything said by me prior to that time that was “offensive and insulting.” There is a difference between to “have nothing but disrespect and inconsideration of others” and to “have nothing but disrespect and inconsideration of” hypocrites like you. But given your modest abilities, that difference is probably lost on you.
Touché. *Slits wrists*
No seriously, a guy on the internet who claims to be Muslim yet wants to change the Qur’an and the Islamic faith called me a “hypocrite.” However shall I sleep at night?!
FYI, after the attack you referred to, Danial got warned several times by Omid who is a moderator of this website. When Danial gets warned, he shapes up. When you get warned, you whine like a baby and resort to personal insults.
I said this before and I’ll say it again: please find a new hobby. Any personal attacks from this point onwards will be deleted.
LOL
Well said.
Esra’a
“If you have nothing but disrespect and inconsideration of others then please do leave and spare us your incessant whining.” What a nice way to treat a guest, though. Your mother must be proud!
So, “you are a moron” is an insult, but “you whine like a baby” is not?
And why do you find the fact that we want to remove “and kill them wherever you find them” from the Koran so reprehensible and un-Islamic?
MAS got pwned by Ali Eteraz so there’s no need to respond to the degenerate.
MAS, learn Arabic to truly understand the Qu’ran.
Well jee I don’t know, maybe because you want it removed from the holy book of our faith! These are the words of God, you cannot change it or do anything about it and if you do then you are not a Muslim by definition, and you shouldn’t pose as one either.
You’ll get treated the way you treat others, live with it.
Honey I admire the way you keep trying, but you have already been exposed here.
Salama
“Honey I admire the way you keep trying, but you have already been exposed here.”
This “exposure” is based on an opinion, not on facts. It is just as valid as me exposing bin Laden as a transvestite. But what can you expect from some “open minded youth” who is not bothered by little things like facts?
I really planned on staying out of this mess, but I have to ask you … do you really think you are providing a context for the words you preach about reforming Islam? For example, would you expect me, let’s say as a potential convert (which I’m not, but for the sake of this argument), to look at your version of Islam and find it to be merciful? Based upon your behavior, I don’t see your reform as any more peaceful than the one you advocate against, and maybe you don’t care, but then I’d be confused as to what your real motives and intentions are. If you want Islam to be reformed, then show us how you expect Muslims to act toward each other and toward non-Muslims, don’t just demand it. If you’re going to lose your cool over being called a few names on a website, how are you going to tackle the real issues that will need mercy, compassion, and forgiveness?
I hope you will think about this with an open mind, as it comes from someone who is not Muslim. The message I am getting from you is that “reformed Islam” is one that incorporates hostility, name-calling, and an inability to rise above pettiness, into it, wrapped up in a bunch of self-righteousness. I have yet to experience from you tangible proof of the reform you want to see, all I get is demands. It looks to me that what you are doing is ultimately counterproductive and a disservice to your community because people will get burned out on hearing about reform if it doesn’t walk its talk. I think perhaps your manifesto needs to include messengers who can control themselves even when under attack, and who can stay true to their ultimate message. Support for reform isn’t going to come about by being immature and wishing for camels to rape your rivals.
I hope you’ll take my perspective into consideration and use it as an opportunity to ask yourself, what kind of role models should your reformed version of Islam have, and are you acting as one of them. Thanks.
Yet another personal attack from someone who could very barely keep up with his own arguments. You mean to tell us that you inviting all of these Islamphobes to write for your website is just an “opinion” and not “fact” even if your darling non-Muslim right-wingers were personally approached with this question? You mean Ted Belman is not your team member? What about Atlas Shrugs?
I think we are giving you way too much credit just by talking to you. You’re not answering any of our questions, instead you keep insulting us while claiming to “win” these arguments. If these so-called arguments of yours are flame wars, something you enjoy and obviously excel at, then this game you’re playing is only with yourself. But I doubt that anyone here is actually interested, most of us are way past grade school and I suggest you grow out of this phase and start arguing like a respectful gentleman.
Don’t hold your breath. Chances of this happening are very slim.
PeacefulVanguard
“would you expect me, let’s say as a potential convert”
I am not interested in converting anyone into anything. I consider religion a strictly personal matter and advocate freedom of, to change, or from religion as a personal choice every individual.
“I don’t see your reform as any more peaceful than the one you advocate against”
I’m sorry if a few words confused you to the point that you can’t see the big issue. I’m not about to blow someone up just for calling me names.
“If you want Islam to be reformed, then show us”
I’m not sure I understand why do I need to show YOU, a non-Muslim, (no disrespect intended about you being non-Muslim) anything is we are working on a reform from inside Islam? When we want the reform to come from the outside, we’ll talk.
“I have yet to experience from you tangible proof of the reform you want to see”
I suggest you visited our site, http://www.reformislam.org rather than concentration on comments posted on some (an obviously hostile) blog. As a matter of fact, the only hostility we have encountered are from “moderate” Muslims and rednecks. Everybody else, even some pretty close-minded forums remain civil.
“who can control themselves even when under attack”
That would be nice in a perfect world. Unfortunately, in real world, the more crap you take from bullies, the balder they become. How do you think radical Islam spread? Good Muslims did not want to stand up to it. I think your perspective is valid in general, but it does not apply to this blog.
Salam,
Does the fact that I am able to post on this blog make me Mideast Youth? Ted and Atlas are contributors to our blog, so is, by the way, Freethinker. Why is that so hard to understand the difference between a member of Muslims Against Sharia and a blog contributor? Besides, if we wanted to keep their participation a secret and not discovered by the inquisitive journalists like “Freethinker”, don’t you think we would? Everybody who has something valuable to contribute to our debate, is welcome to do that. You must agree that Freethinker’s views are not so much to our liking, but he is welcome to express them on our blog. And so are you. Would this make you a member? Not bloody likely.
Guys. Troll. Do not feed.
And you call yourselves moderates? I’d hate to see the hardliners.
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot that being moderate means being pompous and having our heads so far up the rightwing’s ass that it’s impossible to breath.
PAT BUCHANAN FOR PREZ, 2008!
What are we trying to reform? To reform the Holy Qur’an leads to nothing more than more strife, misery, death and senseless violence. Allah, the Most Magnificent, Most Compassionate has already stated that to change one book, one page, one phrase, one word, one letter renders Allah’s message as false. Do you think that Martin Luther and the Reformation movement was interested in changing the Holy Bible? No! Martin’s sole purpose was to shake the Roman Catholic Church and bring it to its knees because the Pope and other self-serving clergy were deviating from the Bible, adding other meanings to it and making up stuff to trick the masses in order to keep them dumbed down and to profit from their ignorance. Martin knew that to bring about change, the Bible needed to be translated with as much of the original meaning intact into the language spoken by the German people. Latin was reserved for the Church and for those who were educated. The poor, uneducated people who attended church services could not understand anything that was said. These people were at the mercy of the priests and the Roman Catholic clergy. This power they held was abused and misused. The Gutenberg Bible was Martin’s gift to the German people, to hear the teachings and the books in their own language and to help them to come to their own understandings of the teachings that are listed in it. Martin knew also that for the people to be able to read it, he needed to help educate the common person in learning how to read and write.
If his reformation movement is what you are speaking about, then say so, but if your aim is to change the Holy Qur’an to suit your tastes and how you want to hear it, then this is not a reformation. It is nothing more than self-serving ploy.
Allah, the Magnificent, the Most Compassionate gave each one of us a mind and right along with it, free will. With your mind, the challenge is put down to learn of all things that are before us, to study them, debate on them and come to our own conclusions and make our own choices with the Message in our Holy Qur’an as guidance. Do you think every imam speaks the same as the next? No! But there is a binding together of the them in that the Holy Qur’an is to remain unblemished and unchanged. It is when people take the Messsage and for some reason or another take on a messiah-like persona knowing fully that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet and there are no others, yet challenges Allah and attempts to change everything to suit his or her own tastes.
To love and agree to disagree and to do positive works from the heart without wanting anything in return counts for everything.
Khalim, do you even speak Arabic? If not how can you possibly fully understand and want to change the Qur’an? Did you just wake up one day and feel that you were good enough to start a new cult?
Dawoud, you couldn’t have put it any better when you say:
That’s exactly why little to no Muslims believe in this cause, follow it, or take it seriously. It’s a failure, and will always be as such because it goes against the very essence of our faith. The site itself really does come off as nothing more than a scam.
This is another great article by Ali Eteraz concerning translations of the Qur’an.
The Quran I Hate, and The One I Love
Actually, osiri, a lot of the authors here would probably be arrested if their governments knew who they were.
Esra’a, are there generally accepted definitions of liberal, moderate, and orthodox? Ones that don’t involve heads and asses but are based on issues?
No there’s not. Everyone makes up their own biased definition and a lot of us are tired of it. To me you’re either a decent human being or you’re not, I don’t believe in the whole moderate/liberal/labels.
Dawoud,
Some of my replies are censored here, so if you are interested in a conversation, we can continue it on our blog. Otherwise you will only hear the parts that please the moderators.
Oh please, none of your comments have been censored here. You just want to increase your own traffic, did you think we were going to fall for that one too? With everything that you posted here, it’s VERY doubtful that anyone is going to fall for your outright lies. So please, come back when you grow up.
Let me get this straight:
You post over 20 comments on this very thread, got away with some personal insults, and now you complain that you are being censored? LOL.
You have been a comedy, thanks for stopping by. Go back to your own dead blog, I assure you that you will not be missed.
“Oh please, none of your comments have been censored here.” I love it when I can show liars for what they are. Screenshots proving that comments were censored will be available shortly on our blog.
By the way, you list Dr. Wafa Sultan as a “prominent moderate Muslim”? Are you insane? She is one of the biggest critics of Islam! She’s not a Muslim. She insulted our prophet on Al Jazeera TV and considers Islam to be a backwards, violent religion, just like you do. Don’t hide under your invisible cape of Islam, we all know you’re nowhere close to being a Muslim. You don’t even associate with any actual Muslim organizations, and that’s the least of why most of us (hm, all of us!) find you suspicious and incredibly misguided.
I love it when people give us free publicity. I’m itching for you to post these so-called screenshots of our site, I hope that’s not asking for too much sweetheart.
Would you hurry up so the rest of us can have a huge laugh at your expense? Tickity tock, we want those screenshots!
Guys you’re being a bit harsh. Give him some time to at least Photoshop it!
Just to chime in here. I did delete some comments. SO where others may have not, I did. I apologize. It really seemed childish and simply trash talk.
MAS you are not abiding by our terms and conditions. Then again, we all should work on being respectful.
Nonetheless, obviously your comments are posts are nothing but inciteful. We have every right to delete what may spoil the atmosphere here, which coincidently turned south when you showed up.
I take full responsiblity for the deleting of the comments.
Omid you should not apologize if you were simply doing your job. We have a clear comment policy; MAS does not respect it. As Murad noted earlier, MAS has at least 20 comments in this thread. Therefore he was not being censored, he simply refused to play by the rules that are stated very simply. It’s worth noting that he was not the only one. There are other commenters here who faced similar consequences, Danial and Murad.
There is a difference between censorship and taking out the trash, and it’s our job here to do the latter. No one is getting special treatment and no one will, the rule applies to everybody and is being practiced on everybody as well.
I just didn’t want there to be confusion. I should have said earlier that the comments were deleted.
FYI EVERYONE: We are trying to rise above the silly bickering and although we can not avoid a pointed debate or exchange every now and then, the least we can do is not piss other people off by sarcasm and idiocy.
We cannot follow in the footsteps of our leaders. Display a little of the teachings that we all so emphatically defend.
Consequences I understand and accept, as opposed to complaining about it, which I never did as it hasn’t got much to do with me being ‘censored’ as much as it is me being ‘disciplined.’
MAS, thank you for the invite, but I must decline. When a person starts to verbally attack someone with little to no tact, uses foul language… I basically tune them out, even if they may be right or have something constructive to say, for the initial impression is pretty hard to erase.
Anything I have to say, I will say it here at MEY. I am here to help promote healthy dialogue and understanding, and if that is also your intent, then please learn to practice common courtesy and refrain from making vulgar comments and try to stick to the original topic.
Dawoud,
Sorry, I didn’t realize that bravery does not extend beyond a friendly forum and that any challenge is a manifestation of vulgarity. But I appreciate you honesty.
A challenge is a challenge, but if the challenge has been prefaced with profanity and unfounded insults, nobody will listen. Bravery has nothing to do with it.
If I can put what I see in plain words, it’s like you have put up a department store right across the street from Wal-Mart. You want people to come in, right? In your effort to do so, you have ridiculed them, questioned their intellect without revealing anything or have taken the time to get to know them and then wished forced bestiality on them. Nobody will want to come into youre store after that, and the words that get spread on how you treated them gets out like a virus.
I think that anyone who defends Ann Coulter on this web site really is a phony. So MAS or whatever you really are — your views seem to reflect a vulgar extremist anti-Muslim hatred. Clearly you are here to promote your blog or whatever it is, but like everyone has already said, namecalling, and ugly comments that typify your responses have no place in any debate. If you have been censored, I can only imagine the ugliness you have written that has to be removed. I think MEY has been way over tolerant of your comments.
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Ray,
Why can’t you admit it that the only reason you hate me is because of my opinions. Stop being a hypocrite by bringing up name calling. Look up the thread and see that I’m not the one who started it.
What are you, 5?
You’ve already ruined this thread with your gibberish, now get back on track or don’t post at all.
Salama,
Not too friendly with logic, are we? I being blamed for name calling which I did not start, because people hate me for my opinions. Danial, who originated the name calling is not being blamed. Why? Because you, people, agree with what he says. Your double standards are soooooo transparent.
Ray,
You don’t have to imagine the ugliness of what was removed. It is posted on our blog. But you prefer to base your opinions on your assumptions, rather than available facts, because it fits your agenda.
I find it hard to believe that anyone hates you. You’re not clever enough to inspire such emotion. People find you annoying because of your childish indecency and overall shallow behavior. Allow me to remind you of this rule in our comment policy, which you have yet to follow:
Follow the rules so we can finally move on. If not, you’ll be moderated, as will anybody else not sticking to the topic at hand.
Here in Bahrain, we have the Bahrain School, which is a a US (Dept of Defense) DoD-run and funded school whose primary purpose is to provide children of US military, DoD and US State Dept personnel a place to attend school. Additonally, many Bahraini and expatriate families send their children to school there for a fee. In 2004, all families of US military and DoD were removed and sent back to the USA or other locations, with the exception of State Dept employees. It should have closed, but special concessions were made between the govts of Bahrain and the USA to keep it open. What does this have to do with the original thread? All faiths are given equal footing here. The kids get a great education (from what I hear from my friends) and exposure to other nationalities and cultures. It sounds like the American Public School System could learn a few things from Bahrain School.
I am always entertained by MAS … MAS has a blog and he has tried to get me to read it but frankly after reading the MAS posts, I just assume it is no different
… so what’s the point?
Ray Hanania
http://www.ArabWritersGroup.com
I just had to find out what this controversy was over Jello. As I was shopping today at the supermarket near my home here in Bahrain, I found Jello. It was not located in the non-Muslim grocery section, but it was displayed and for sale in the ordinary place where Jello and other things like pudding mix can be found. I looked at the contents and the ingredients and see that it contains dehydrated pure beef gelatin, fructose, food coloring and other artificial flavors. So, what’s the big deal about it? We eat Jello here in Bahrain. Does USA JEllo contain pork or some other haram product?
Ray Hanania, you wrote, “The real tragedy here is this stupid debate continues in part because moderate Muslims refuse to stand up and tell the extremists in their communities to shut up and sit down.”
Do you see any one telling Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach or Rabbi Joseph Potasnik to shut up and sit down?
They are all given public forums to speak their minds, no matter how bigoted their words are.
You are no different than the neo-cons when you say moderate Muslims are afraid to stand up to the fundamentalists.
You are no different than many in the mainstream media who ask why are there no Muslims who are condemning terrorism? There are many Muslims that condemn terrorism much of the media refuses to interview them.
The problem is with the media, and not just the right wing media. Much of the mainstream media chooses to ignore moderate Muslims. Muslims and Arabs have to create alternative media that is geared to people, all peoples, not just to Muslims and Arabs, otherwise we will never hear the views of the moderate Muslim and Arabs.
Randall has a point that media has given little attention to the moderate Muslim and any movements to counter extremist Muslim tendencies. I catch pieces of it here and there, and the way it is presented makes moderate Muslim viewpoints look unique. There’s nothing unique in wanting to eradicate the ugly image that extremists who profess Islam have done to our Islam. As long as the average person is bombarded with media presentation of all the bad things, we moderates have a hard time trying to convince non-Muslim that we are not like the bad ones seen on TV and in other mediums of current media. It makes Islam easy to hate and blame for the ills of the world.
I’ve heard many Muslims say how dangerous it can be to oppose the extremists: does that make them “neo-cons”? Ask some of the tribal leaders in Anbar how safe it is to take a stand.
Dawoud: what movements to counter extremist Muslim tendencies is the MSM ignoring?
MyTwoCents, “Ask some of the tribal leaders in Anbar how safe it is to take a stand.”
Maybe if the United States didn’t help Saddam Hussein into power and support him, financially and strategically, when he was committing his worst atrocities, we wouldn’t have these problems. Maybe if the United states hadn’t bombed the country twice in two invasions and destroyed the infrastructure of the country, we wouldn’t have these problems. Maybe if thousands of Iraqis had not been jailed without reason, we wouldn’t have these problems. Maybe if the United States did not use agent provocateurs to fuel the violence in Iraq, we wouldn’t have these problems. Maybe if the United States had put on trial the Westerners who collaborated with Saddam Hussein, we wouldn’t have these problems.
During the civil rights movement in the United States, there were many assassinations and lynchings, the most famous being Martin Luther King, but there were lesser known, as well as unrecognized thousands killed during this period. But of course there is a big difference between Iraq and the United States. The United States was not under occupation and had not had its infrastructure bombed out and chemical weapons had not been used throughout the land.
MyTwoCents asked Dawoud: “what movements to counter extremist Muslim tendencies is the MSM ignoring?”
So many times I’ve seen or heard television and radio news reporters, talk show hosts, as well as newspaper columnists, ask where are the moderate Muslims who will condemn the actions of terrorists and extremists. But they hardly if ever interview moderate Muslims. They give the impression that Muslims are one big monolithic thing in which everyone thinks alike. It’s as if though those who work in the mainstream media don’t want to see moderate Muslims, they need someone or something to hate. Here is a website that has many Muslim activists and writers who would love the opportunity to address the mainstream media and its audience. http://www.altmuslim.com/
The mainstream media not only ignores moderate Muslims in their words but also in their images. The vast majority of Muslim women shown in media either have their face covered or dressed from head to toe in black, even though the vast majority of them don’t dress this way.
Hi, RandalJones.
In response to your short history of the great satan: what does that have to do with you calling Ray a “neo-con”?
In response to your second post, about what movements to counter extremist Muslim tendencies is the MSM ignoring? I was thinking in terms of actions, not words. I haven’t been through all the six or seven sites in the ring, but a quick scan didn’t turn up any actions (actually doing something as opposed to just more talking) being taken or planned against extremist elements locally or nationally. Should I look again?
Frankly, I don’t care how many people “condemn” terrorists and extremists: talk is cheap. “By their fruits you shall know them.”
Just one comment about ‘Hundreds if not thousands of years ago, Pagans celebrated the Devil’. Wrong. Actually they didn’t worship the devil but it was their new years celebration, Samhain. They didn’t ‘worship the devil’, but simply remembered the dead on so called ‘Halloween’. I think it’s a bit hypocritical to talk about ‘religious tolerance’ in this article and not getting the facts right.
Hey People
I wanted to share with you a wonderful site I just came across teaching Krav Maga like they teach it in the Israeli Army (IDF) If you guys have seen the Discovery Channel TV Show called Fight Quest you would have seen their chief instructor Ran Nakash there. Anyways, I think it’s worth a look. I’ve been a member for the last 4 months, and I’ve been loving every minute of it.
Hope I’ve helped someone here,
regards
Hola people, Happy day-after-Halowen! Today the real scares come when all you one night standers find out you just got a nasty case of herpes.