Jerusalem
I was watching Kingdom of Heaven this past weekend, and yeah, I do not know how accurate the movie was in potraying what was happening, but the scene where Baylion is talking with Salahuddin regarding Jerusalem and surrender terms, Baylion remarks that if Salahuddin’s army intends to take Jerusalem by force after many days of fighting and seige, he will destroy every block of stone in the city, including every place that is regarded as holy for Jew, Christian and Muslim, and for every knight who is killed, 10 of Salahuddin’s men will will follow that knight. Baylion’s statement regarding detroying the holy places is meant that these places drive men mad and are the reasons nobody can ever agree which is the true religion and who should rule Jerusalem. Salahuddin comments back that maybe that is a good idea, because Jerusalem has been the cause of so much bloodshed during that period. Salahuddin’s terms were in exchange for surrendering the city to his army, all who want to leave Jerusalem will be permitted to do so with protection from Salahuddin’s escorts to the Christian cities on the coast.
What Baylion said in this movie makes a lot of sense. Jerusalem is the holy city of all Jews, Christians and Muslim, and as then, nobody has brought any peace to that city and it continues to be a thorn in the feet of everyone both directly and indirectly.
Here’s what I am thinking- what if Jerusalem became its own city-state free of any other country and a place were Jew, Christian and Muslim all share the responsibilities of running the city as one entity? Each head of state would rotate in succession of a Jewish head, Christian head and Muslim head so that neither religion could take the upper hand and a governing/judicial body that is made up of equal shares of the three. Protection of Jerusalem would be the responsibility of a police force made up of its own citizens with a wider role being provided by the UN with a rotating multi-national contingent on hand forever. A free city-state that can control its destiny and a place where Jew, Christian and Muslim can come and worship unmolested. A sanctuary. A place where nobody can emigrate to without special consideration and invitation. I believe with Jerusalem out of the equation, it would take a lot of the wind out of any cause that it should be Jewish, Christian or Muslim, for it would be all three without outside influences. Ask yourself how many groups are outside of Jerusalem who are currently active and working to see that it falls to one faith or the other. Ask yourself how much money Jerusalem has cost the world directly and indirectly for all these centuries. Ask yourself why it should belong to one faith or another and then ask yourself is Jerusalem worth all of the fighting and the bloodshed that has been spilled all this time up til now.
It is my belief, and I really don’t care if you like it or not, but all three groups have done a piss poor job of keeping the peace, and to me, Jerusalem does not belong to anyone. Jerusalem belongs to the world, and it should be the center of peace and neutrality and a place where we can take our grievances if we cannot solve them without mediation.
Your thoughts?
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Nice idea, but it would never work. The bureaucracy needed to create this type of system would be monstrous. Christian might go for it, but some believe that for Jesus to retur, J’lem must be under Jewish control. Tradtional Judaism cannot see the messiah coming without Jewish control of J’lem. Muslims might go for it, but keep in mind that there are so many extremists currently involved in the situation on their side (and the Jewish side) that it would be almost impossible from that angle.
I guess we would have a better chance of an off-world visitor from another solar system coming down and taking it, eradicating the extremist groups in Jerusalem or in close vicinity, setting up shop and then setting up the new rules and then turning Jerusalem over to the UN with a stern warning that if Jerusalem is violated again, it would be the end of the world for the aggressor. It would definitely leave a lot of people here confused and out of a job or a cause.
An interesting suggestion. Could work perhaps but as pointed out rightly by David, it just would involve too much bureaucracy and also certain faith items require the possession of Jerusalem in the hands of a certain faith.
In fact, the problem lies somewhere else rather. If Jesus has to return by the will of God then he will return, regardless of the fact whether Jerusalem is in Muslim / Christian / Jewish hands. The problem lies where people of either start considering Jerusalem holier than human blood & life.
If inter-faith relations keep in view the human life to be most holy than whatever our differences are over Jerusalem, will fade away.
I’m with you on that, broham! That is my argument whenever the Judgement Day comes. It’ll come and it won’t matter who’s hands Jerusalem is in. The facts are right there in the three. God will judge each by their works, not by who’s hands Jerusalem is in, for Jerusalem will be in God’s hands and earhtly pursuits will mean nothing. Human blood is worth more than any religious site. The three faiths forget that we cannot undo what God wants to do, and we are just stupid for falling into the romantic notion that Jerusalem is worth sacrificing ourselves for. This is definitely a man-made cause.
That was the idea for the UN partition plan in 1948. It was going to be an international city, under the UN (a corpus separatum). A little bit different from yours, but in the same spirit. I agree with your idea, but I do think it’s a pipe dream. I don’t see Israeli Jews or Arabs (especially the Palestinians) letting that happen.
While I agree with the spirit of the debate, I think the main problem with making Jerusalem a “free city” rules by the 3 faiths is that a large part of the city is Haredi – i.e., ultra-orthodox Jews. They don’t seem to get along with any government (Israel’s included), they live by their own rules (they throw rocks at your car if your drive through their beighborhood on saturday), they pay no taxes, they don’t work, they study Torah all day, they don’t serve in the army, they are horribly corrupt, and unfortunately they breed like rabbits.
I think it will be very difficult to divide the city, and am not sure what the best solution is to have both Israeli and Palestinian capitals there. One solution I read is to make the Old city like the Vatican, i.e., the same idea Dawoud proposed but only for the holy city, and have the joint international protection of its soverignty by the US, Arab League, EU, and Russia. I should also say that neither Israelis nor Palestinians want this solution, and maybe it should be forced upon them.
I’m not sure what to do with the rest of the city. Maybe have a powerful neighborhood governments to administer each area?
As for peace makers, check out this site.
LLTL- The Haredi sound like very religious trailer park trash. Lol! I just had to say that because that’s what they sound like.
If the idea I am proposing were forced upon Jerusalem, well my excuse is that in the hands of any one state, the place is like a keg of dynamite and no single entity has proven they can bring peace there. Under international protection and under a flag of neutrality, I feel it stands a better chance and gives no more ammo for the extremists for Jerusalem would be a “World City”. If it could only be applied to the Old City, then that’s what it should be.
Not letting it happen (Jews and Arabs)? Then what do they propose? We, the collective world, are tired of the BS and the causes that result in nothing but further separation, further loss of life, further fuel for someone’s extremist fire and further loss of time, money and effort that could best be used in other parts of the world to fix the stuff we need to fix. I don’t understand why we, the world, can’t get it right.
Right on Dawoud. Keep in mind that the city was destroyed and rebuilt 17 times (one of the highest counts in the world to my knowledge) so anyone and everyone will have problems holding it together. I think the most unique idea I heard was to move the UN to Jerusalem. I don’t how much support this idea has but what do you think?
I was actually mulling over that same idea. The UN needs to be located in an area that is not governed by a national entity not its own. Moving it to Jerusalem and making it a worldwide exclusion zone of peace would actually give the UN some clout if Jerusalem can become its own city-state. To move the UN there with Israel still running it or any other bordering country running it would just escalate things. Jerusalem needs to be its own entity. 17 times… wow! It sounds like some groups of people have been pissed off for many many centuries at certain other groups. I would sure love to see the vinegar of hate removed from that place in my lifetime.
Actually, all these ideas have considerable merit. It is about time the UN was moved to a more neutral location (I always thought the idea of it being in a permanent spot was somewhat counter-productive) and making Jerusalem a DMZ, it’s own city state and UN headquarters is an excellent solution. Imagine what benefits the region could realize! Not only the dividends of peace and stability, but also the economic windfall that is sorely needed in that area. It would also make an immensely powerful statement about the commitment to diplomatic means over military ones. If this could actually be pulled off, and all the players, political and religious, could agree and commit enough protective resources to ensure that it would be safe and workable, it could actually become the centre of a viable world government! VERY good idea! Mabye the kind of thing all sorts of young activists could rally around…
You know, I was a little hesitant to even post up something that has been on my mid for a while when I initiated this thread, but I said “F@ck it!” and did it. I won’t be afraid to speak my mind anymore. Instead of comments of anger and hate and threats, this thread has received positive energy and realism. It’s nice to see that others feel the same way I do about Jerusalem and that there is merit in making it a “world city” and the home of peaceful diplomacy and harmony amongst the people of the world. I also see that there are forces who have gnashing teeth, baited breath and hate-influenced agendas with lots of backers and money to lose if this were to happen. We (all of us in the world) have been warned about these types for years, for centuries, and the only product they have produced has been the suffering of this world, stunted intellectual growth, stunted peace initiatives, stunted advances in the sciences and turning our world into a toilet. These crazy megalomaniacs (put in here any name you choose) wish to hurry the Day of Judgement as if they were chosen to do Allah’s work. Allah will come when Allah wants, and there is nothing humans can do to affect or control Allah. There are no more special persons. It’s just us.
Imagine the advances we could have made if we did not have this thorn in our feet? Imagine the numbers of lives that did not have to necessarily end? Many would say that all that we have gone through is part of the predestined plan, a test. I believe in this, but nowhere in any religious writing does it say that we must not promote peace and improve our world and the lives of the people, the myriad of species and the wonders created. As a Muslim, I am not speaking of blasphemy, yet there are those who would say I am, but I am just like you… I love the life Allah gave me and the opportunities Allah provides to excel and work together to make a postive difference. I, too, feel this idea for Jerusalem would be a positive cause for all young activists to rally around and make happen. The way up is steep and a lot of people may grow weak and fall off, but nobody said works of peace and purity was easy. We just have to be smarter and stronger than the ones who actively hunt us down or stand on the sidelines hoping we fail.
Ok, I’ve talked enough. With all of this energy, how do we put the ball in motion?
Jerusalem as a ‘world capital’ under UN government. What an excellent idea!
I do not mind the Jews and the Muslims fight to get the city. I am angry at the Christians, because they want to bush the coming of the Christ. In other words, the Christians believe that the city has to be in the hand of the Jews, according to the prophecy, before Christ could come. The Christians want to bush the coming of Christ in the account of the Palestinians. They do not care who should get Jerusalem, but they care to bush for the coming of the Christ and give the city to the Jews even if they have to kill all Palestinians forgetting the words of the Bible: the day of the lord will come as the thief in the night