Wanna be famous? Bash Islam!
October 28th, 2007Insulting Islam is how the mainstream media and the right-wing blogosphere defines bravery. Anyone who hates the faith and is outspoken about it has a much higher chance of getting air time than let’s say, an honest activist somewhere in Afghanistan or Iran who actually maintain their faith. Forget human rights activism from real Muslims. You can be a rich Arab living luxuriously in North America with nothing to lose and much fame to gain if only you would declare yourself an ex-Muslim who is actively trying to destroy the source of all our problems (Islam, apparently.) Many powerful people will love and praise you if only you would hatefully attack this faith while speaking from personal “experience.”
Let’s admit it; Ayaan Hirsi Ali wouldn’t be where she is today if it wasn’t for the fact that her target is the Islamic faith as opposed to corrupt leadership, military rule, extreme censorship, gender inequality and other politically motivated bullshit. Many others are struggling to be like her, tempted by the dirty fame that comes along with this. They take cases like Kareem Amer’s and completely twist it to serve their own interests.
The fact that this campaign is led by mostly Muslims turned many people off from linking to it or joining our efforts; they have used Kareem’s case to feed their hatred against Islam and sometimes the inevitable racism against Arabs that come with it. But we have made a powerful point when we started this campaign; we redefined our struggles in the Middle East and made many people realize that the enemy is not in fact Islam. We make a point of refuting claims by both right-wing and Islamic extremists. In my opinion this is what activism should be about: fighting sources of extremism and hatred in all its shapes and colors. Not singling out a faith or a group of people and blaming it for all our problems. That’s not activism, it’s ignorance and stupidity, and it should no longer be fed from corporate giants who control what the majority can hear in the mainstream.
Really, what is going on throughout the media and the international blogosphere is revolting me; this constant need for certain people to gang up on others for the sheer sake of fame and uninformed ideologies.
What about those honest activists elsewhere in restricted countries? Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia? Who cares? Just because they don’t serve anyone’s religious and political agendas they are unworthy of making news? Sure, let’s forget the fact that they are risking their lives on a daily basis just trying to be heard, for trying to spread the truth about what’s going on in their countries and for struggling towards causes that not enough people are a part of: illiteracy, poverty, health care, genocide, war, tribal disputes, the list is endless. There are millions of people fighting for many forms of human rights right now as I write this, their bravery is unmatchable. Many are doing it as proud Muslims too. But somehow, in what seems like a twisted world, an ex-Muslim migrant somewhere spreading hatred on his blog/site from the comfort of Europe or the USA is much more worthy to listen to. This is what the media calls brave and courageous behavior. Why?
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Yeah… Smth to think about.
Moderate Islam has also been raped, now “moderate” means people who reject the Quran like those loons from Muslims Against Sharia. Of course they get tons of exposure because they’re exactly what the right-wingers want. Sometimes we just have to force ourselves to fight back, no matter how many enemies we gain in the process.
Simply, it’s because good news never sells. Look at all the threads that go unread and uncommented on because there’s nothing tanatalizing or shocking. It’s like what I wrote to a good friend last night that it seems everybody wants to be in on a cause, a passion or a scene, but very few will take the time to actually do something because they are either lazy, scared or posers/fakes or something of all three.
If Muslims would massively protest the violence and demand that the heads of all eight schools of fiqh disavow violent jihad, there would be **NO** so-called right-wing blogs at all. We would be able to leave this problem in your hands and get to solving other problems that are urgent.
After all, what is hate?
Is it being angry that people who have the power to stop debased violence in the name of Allah (I do not even remotely think Allah approves)?
Or is it declaring war on people of other religions, beheading other Muslims who don’t agree, stoning women, amputating limbs of petty thieves, honoring killings, bombing markets full of women and children?
The sad thing is that Islam DESERVES to be saved as a religion. It is a beautiful religion in its core transcendental verses. It is one nasty religion when it’s run from its often-spurious hadith — largely invented by warlords to justify their own whims — and the Medinan verses, which should be taken in historical context, not used as an excuse for bloodlust and domination.
There is no generation of Muslims in history that has so failed Islam as this one. But if you decide to grow a spine and take care of the problem inside the religion instead of focusing on critics who have had to take up the problem because you will not, you will find that the criticism ceases immediately and that you win the respect of the world. At this point, however, you do not deserve the respect of the world. You don’t deserve Allah’s respect, either.
And I think if you look more closely you will find that the opposition to shari’a is coming from the fact it has been shaped to give maximum control to men and discriminates against minorities. That is not rape. That is an attempt to take Islam back to its roots (Allah and his Prophet), not leave it in the hands of power-mongers.
What is really happening is that anybody who tells the truth sees it branded “hate speech” or blasphemy. If the person is a Muslim, often an accusation of apostasy follows, and in some places that’s a death sentence.
The people destroying Islam (and it is being destroyed) are the people who are handing it over to cults that bear nearly no resemblance to original Islam and are basically foci of desert tribalist customs and “reformations” (Wahhabism and Talibanism) that developed VERY late in the history of islam.
Take it back. Rid yourselves of these people and let Islam shine its light again.
By the way, I can’t stand Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ann Coulter, either. Just for the record, I think Hirsi Ali is reckless with others’ safety and inflammatory to be titilating. When I saw Submission I thought that if anybody ever made a film about Catholic suppression of women’s rights (and using them as baby factories) it would have been met with TOTAL outrage. The difference is that Catholics wouldn’t KILL anybody for having said it.
Ann Coulter is a mess. She made the statement (which Daniel Pipes deliberately made known he does NOT agree with) that Muslim leaders should be killed and the rest forcibly converted.
I believe that is a direct quote from a bin Laden lecture.
Look, this is a very sad thing. The first thing most Westerners ever knew about Islam was a terrorist attack. Started in the mid-70s and got worse for the next 30 year.
Then there was 9/11. Since 9/11 there have been (as of this morning) 9681 terrorists ATTACKS that have killed nearly 30,000 people, most of them Muslims.
During Ramadan alone — RAMADAN, the holiest time of the year — there were 282 attacks in 20 countries against the people of 5 religions. Those attacks killed more than 1,300 and critically injured more than 1,600 others.
I wish it had been different. I wish people had been able to know the good side of Islam before they learned the bad. But it just didn’t turn out that way. And now people want the violence stopped BEFORE they will be willing to listen to you about how good your religion is.
Expressing a concern for the violence and demanding an end to it BEFORE we get another article about “what my jihab means to me” is only natural. Nobody is going to care about that when day after day we watch a small, nasty batch of Muslims behead their way to power why American Muslims, the richest and freest and most powerful in the world, spend their time whining about so-called “Islamophobia”.
It is nothing of the kind. It is an unwillingness to give up the freedom of the world while the good Muslims — overwhelmingly the majority — cave in by doing nothing.
The opposite of love isn’t hate anyway. It’s apathy.
Yeshar koach Esra’a, I agree with every word you said. It’s sad that the right wing is constantly looking for Islamic “defectors” to justify their Islamophobic agenda. But I should say that this goes both ways. I and many other Jews feel that Jewish antisemites (Norman Finkelstein, Tony Judt, Ilan Pepe, etc.) are given way too much of a voice the Arab press, as if only to delegitimize the Zionist cause and support an anti-Israel political agenda. To me, both types of self-haters are discredited. What do you think?
Yeah, because the world doesn’t give us a chance to earn their respect. They shun and silence us and the world continues to fall under the illusion that good Muslims aren’t doing enough. They are doing a lot, much more than you think. Many died for their struggles. No one knows about it, no one cared enough to find out who these people were and what their efforts meant.
But I disagree with your remark that people are doing nothing. For the first time in history there is an active Muslim group in defense of Baha’i rights, led by our group right here. That is a huge step forward for us. And like I said Kareem’s huge campaign is led by Muslims. Also a very big step for us. There are many other Muslim groups condemning religiously-motivated crimes. How come people don’t focus on that?
Like Dawood said it’s because we consider it good news, and good news doesn’t sell. You only believe what you watch in the media and if we don’t make it past your media’s gatekeepers, guess what? We’re history.
You see, it’s not that people aren’t doing things. It’s just that we place this huge dependence on the media. If the mainstream doesn’t report it; it means it must not exist. I assure you these efforts are there and they’re real and what we are doing with our cyber activism doesn’t even come CLOSE to what many of our friends are doing in neighboring countries, not to mention in places within Afghanistan where they truly risk their lives doing this. They are unknown because you make no effort in getting to know them. We can’t blame them for doing nothing if we are the ones ignorant of their hard work.
It’s everyone’s responsibility to get involved in this. Not just ours and not just yours. We are doing what we can with little to no help. Can you blame us?
At times love seems very weak compared to the devastating ruin caused by hate. Yet all religions teach us that love is ultimately more powerful. And anyway, weak or powerful it’s the only way to go if we do not want to be infected with hate ourselves. Persevere.
Too damned right.
Is a person a “defector” if they simply have a different opinion than you do? This is just short of saying they’re an apostate.
Earlier this week at Tufts University Daniel Pipes spoke and took questions after. It was actually very mild as he is the major proponent of the theory that “Radical Islam is the problem and moderate Islam (as it exists right now) is the solution.” The problem is … who has the tiller of this ship right now? Right now it’s the radicals who are steering Islam. We’d just like you to take your power back.
The Muslims in this crowd were VERY respectful and carried on a good dialogue. The Leftists were disruptive and rude (as per usual).
One fellow got up at the end, and he talked about the social repression even of men in Saudi Arabia, and then he talked about fighting slavery in Mauritania and how Islamic leaders there had supported it. You may not know, but Mauritania was the last nation on earth to outlaw slavery — in early September of THIS YEAR — and some of this man’s family had been taken as slaves. So, he said, he quite understood the why Americans were concerned about Islam — but at the same time he was very offput by some of the screed he hears. I was right with him on this. Some of it (Coulter, for example, again) is done, as was said above, to be shocking or get attention or is … in fact … hateful, and bearing the same religious supremacist thinking that we complain about with radical Islam. Either there is “no compulsion in religion” or there’s not, and that applies to everybody, not just Muslims.
He really transformed the whole hall. (I think somebody from Gracen Intelligence is going to write an article about this.) His honesty was striking, and coming from a man who had risked his life to end slavery of Muslim people in Mauritania, it was profoundly moving.
The seminar ended, and he was immediately mobbed by a group of Muslims excoriating him — absolutely SCATHING him — for saying anything “un-nice” about islam in front of non-Muslims. The principle culprit in this was a very haughty, snobbish, control-freak of an adolescent who acted as if he had the power of Khomeini and the authority, too. He was disgusting.
And this man calmly listened to him and simply refused to back down. And I grew even more respectful of him because he had refused to be ordered back into herd mentality by people interested more in what happens to their “look good” than what happens to Muslims all over the world who are being forced out of the freedom of conscience given to them by Islam, as in NO OTHER RELIGION IN THE WORLD, and squandered and thrown away by Muslims today in an act of face-time prissiness for the cameras.
When Muslims think that defending their religion is refusing to carrying a blind person in a cab because he has a seeing eye dog or calling people hateful when they express concern for what the WORST among Muslims are doing, then there may be a phenomenon going on here that is well known in forensic psychology.
It is the transference of the IDENTIFICATION of the enemy from the real bad guys to people that it is safer to fight. The simple truth is that the safest to be when there is a real vicious tyrant about is RIGHT NEXT TO THEM. Preferably a little behind them where they don’t look straight at you, but definitely, definitely not in any position you can be said to oppose them. Because if you do, you’re dead, and your family is dead.
The evening of 9/11 I went to what I’ll call “The Alexandria Market” in a city in the South. I hung out there all the time because the food was good and the tea was the best ever made in North America. I went there because I knew my friends were going to have a hard time dealing with it. In fact, by the time I got there they were variously angry or crying that some people said that Muslims had done it. They were in shock that anybody could think this was true.
Everybody had this opinion except for my old Egyptian friend Ahmed, who was crying in the back of the story, inconsolable. “This is what we came to America to get away from, and now it is here.” He was very clear about who this was and what they were about. He also knew that the other people in the shop had NO CLUE about what was going on and what was coming.
Within two weeks, the mosque next door had had a visit from a Wahhabi imam. Within two months the market had fired all its female employees, and all the women of the mosque had been forced into cover.
My Moroccan friend Rusia, a young mother of 22 with a husband in his 40s whom she loved incredibly deeply, took the veil, she said, because the Wahhabi imam had threatened her husband if she did not. The tension in the Muslim community was absolutely incredible. On one side they had an American population, largely unaware of them previously so quiet had they been, now seeing them as a potential enemies. It was so bad that the electicity company wouldn’t put in a new feed line and the county inspectors wouldn’t finish the inspection for the dining room. So I put on my 4-inch Prada pumps, a Michel Kors black suit, grabbed a brief case and went down to the County Commissioner and filed a complaint myself. Then I went to the inspectors’ office and demanded that the inspection be finished, which it was, by 5 p.m. the same afternoon. So I know all about how this happens and how shaming and angering it is. I was furious, and it wasn’t even my shop.
BUT … the other side of this is what’s reared its ugly head on this thread today. It’s the forcing of a herd mentality in which dissent is not allowed. And because the Wahhabis are monied and threatening the Islamic community is being driven more and more into silence about things they know they should change, and they are giving their power away more and more, while TRANSFERING the identification of the enemy to Americans they know will defend their freedoms even while they’re being blamed for what is going on.
Now, no question, Bush is an idiot and Cheney is practically the anti-Christ. But the truth is also that the Shi’a community in the United States lobbied the US government for 25 years to go into Iraq and take out Saddam, and they made all kinds of promises about how the Shi’a would be fair, about how there would be no retribution, about how there would be peace and gratitude. We weren’t there TWO WEEKS before Al Sadr branded us “occupiers”, a term that in Iraq means much more than it would elsewhere.
Add to that the Sunni invitation to Al Qaeda, which they are now sorry they did. Al Qaeda came in and immediately began marrying high into the tribal leadership in all the Sunni groups in Iraq. By the time anybody figured out what was going on, they owned most of the women of the powerful families of Sunni Iraq. The backlash came when an Al Qaeda strongman demanded the daughter of one of the tribal leaders. She pleaded her father NOT to marry her to this man (despite the fact she is supposed to rights of marriage in Islam, in fact she did not), and her father heard her. He refused to give her to this man, and this terrorist then killed him, the daughter, and every other member of her family. And he didn’t just kill them. There was rape of all the women, amputation of some of the children’s hands and feet before they died, castration of some of the men before they died. The victims were burned and stabbed and tortured to death as a message to other Iraqi Sunnis that Al Qaeda would take any woman they wanted. The obvious attempt here is for Al Qaeda operatives to marry into the top power levels of all the Sunni tribes. In fact, they were subjugating them, taking wealth and power from everyone.
The tribes revolted. Since then they have killed more than a dozen tribal leaders, including Sheikh Maawia Naji Jebara, the man who would have made a GREAT president of Iraq.
Now, are the Sunnis wrong anti-Islamic in criticizing Al Qaeda? No, they’re not. They are also not treasonous toward Islam for publicly doing so.
Brave Muslims who stand up are NOT anti-Islamic or doing something wrong. They are brave, and they are the ones who will save Islam.
Just a reminder: The Prophet clearly stated that the destruction of Islam would come out of the Nejd.
As one said above, SMTH to think about.
If you haven’t read Khaled Abou El Fadl’s “The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam From The Extremists,” you really should. He addresses many of these issues with historical and religious backing.
Esra …
Stop whining. My complaint is with American Muslims who sit on their fat behinds while the people overseas stand up at the risk of their lives to save the Sunni community in Iraq from Al Qaeda, the Baha’i in Iran from the mullahs, etc. The former Grand Mufti of Marseilles has been incredibly brave. The Islamic feminists like Konca Kuris, who was tortured (they filmed it) for 38 days before she was killed by Turkish Hibzollah, stand up.
But American Muslims argue about whether they can get special footbaths in some university and strike airport taxi stands if somebody gets in a cab with a sealed bottle of alcohol and threaten to sue if somebody comes through a Kmart checkstand with a sealed package of pork chops.
Meanwhile, when six imams trigger 87% of all the terrorist-alert functions on an aircraft and are ejected at the request of a MUSLIM PASSENGER WHO HEARS THEM TALKING ABOUT 9/11 IN GLOWING TERMS (ALLAHU AKBAR!), US Air, TSA, and the passengers on the plane get sued!
Self-pity won’t get it. But self-pity disappears when you begin to deal with real problems.
I have only the greatest admiration for Muslims in other parts of the world who stand their ground against this assault on their freedom and on their faith.
I have little sympathy with Muslims who prefer to claim they are being ever-so done wrong and discriminated against when they will NOT stand up against their real enemy, and instead brand as hate speech the concerns of those who are at once the STATED TARGETS OF RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS and yet provide a safe haven for Muslims fleeing terrorist states at a rate of a million a month.
At first I thought that the saving of Islam would come from American Muslims. Now I am not sure, as many Muslims scholars are not sure, that Islam will survive the 21st century. The great danger, of course, is that some terrorist will be successful in detonated a chemical, biological or nuclear device in a Western country. If, or rather when, that happens, Muslim immigration to the West will cease entirely, everybody who doesn’t have residency will be deported, and trade will stop with all countries that support or tolerate hate-preaching and incitement to violence in their mosques and medrassas.
And, of course, there is the growing impetus in the West toward the creation of new energy sources. The radioflame technology is the most promising. Sonoluminescence isn’t bad. Cold fusion is unlikely. But if, tomorrow, American cars became plug-ins rather than internal combustion engines, it would be all over for Saudi Arabia.
So, while people complain about Bush (me, too), know this: If he did to the Muslim world what he could do by destroying the oil industry, there would be a worldwide depression from which America would recover, but the Muslim world would not. And that is coming if Islam doesn’t get itself straightened out.
And we can’t do that for you. We’d do it if we could. But we can’t, because Islam can only be saved from inside itself. There IS no solution that can be imposed from without, despite the stupidity of some foreign policy wonks to believe there is.
And while you are there feeling sorry for yourself, know this: I have been fighting for Islam since the day of 9/11, and I had one friend say to me the other day: Why don’t you get sick of doing more for Islam than the Muslims do? And I said, “Because it is beautiful and it is worth saving.”
But it won’t get saved by me. I’m an American. I can’t save it.
But you can.
Meredith,
Stop making this about Americans. This is not about American Muslims who sit on their “fat” behinds doing nothing nor is it solely about America.
I am talking about the millions of Muslims worldwide who are doing amazing things, and people like you ignoring it. Get with the program.
And stop treating Islam like it’s the one that needs saving. The religion still exists and is practiced by more than 1 billion people. It doesn’t need yours or anybody else’s “saving.” This is not what this post is about.
Esra …
Yes, I’ve read it. There are plenty of examples of brave Muslims saving Islam. But they’re not the American Muslims who bitch about cabs and footbaths.
American Muslims are safe, free, strong, powerful and rich. And American Islam is the only Islam in the world other than Saudi Arabia which is 80% dominated by Wahhabi imams, a calcalation of the House of Saud.
You need to think about this: The age of oil will end. When it does it will not be safe for the House of Saud, which has bled the country of the most unimaginable wealth to fall into the hands of a small group of people in the history of the world.
They have been working to subsume the American Muslim community for at least 35 years so that they can COME HERE WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE and be safe and run the Islamic community in the United States when that happens.
Start with the mosques. Rid yourselves of the Pakistani and Saudi imams who tell you to stay quiet and “defend” Islam by opportunistically pressing for special treatment (a Jew who refused to check pork chops at KMart would be fired for it) and push Americans with screed about “hate speech” and fake “discrimination”. I’m right with you on the real stuff and will defend you until I drop dead. But don’t play games with it. ALWAYS in this country the people really discriminated against are blacks, and hate crimes against blacks are 280 times those against Jews, the next most discriminated-against group, and 320 times those against Muslims. The total number of REAL acts of discrimination against Muslims.
For 2005, the last year that records are available, the FBI figures are these. MOST of the hate crimes in this country are against blacks and have a racial basis. I’m just going to give the figures for religious basis here, however, since Islam is not a race (therefore claims are racism are just stupid and spurious).
SOURCE: FBI
Religious Bias
Hate crimes motivated by religious bias accounted for 1,314 offenses reported by law enforcement. A breakdown of the bias motivation of religious-bias offenses showed:
* 68.5 percent were anti-Jewish.
* 11.1 percent were anti-Islamic.
* 7.8 percent were anti-other (unspecified) religion.
* 4.6 percent were anti-Catholic.
* 4.4 percent were anti-Protestant.
* 3.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, (i.e., groups of individuals of varying religions).
* 0.4 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism.
Now, look closely. The total number of hate crimes for ALL categories is 1,314. Of those, 900 were against Jews. There were 146 against Muslims. This is in a country of 300 million people.
In Thailand last year, Muslims killed almost 1,000 Buddhists. In Baghdad last year, the death toll of all Iraqi citizens was 16,791. Of those, 16,566 were killed in Muslim-on-Muslim violence.
That Islamic terrorists could threaten Americans with death, the destruction of their culture, law suits, name-calling, and the loss of their civil rights — while American Muslims stay silent or use the situation to demand rights no Christian or Jew could POSSIBLY get — and there are just 146 crimes against Muslims that could classify as a hate crime (900 for Jews), I would have to say that Americans have bent over backwards trying to be fair.
However, being fair does not include giving up OUR free speech rights to talk about REAL problems, and it is disingenous and manipulation of Muslims to brand hate speech everything said in defense not only of our culture but of true Islamic culture worldwide. It’s ridiculous and insulting.
I know many, many non-Muslims who stood up for the good in Islam from the beginning. Many, many of them have left now. The ranks of non-Muslims willing to tolerate this crap is shrinking fast. They watch daily terrorist attacks worldwide — attacks that can’t even remotely be pinned on American foreign policy — attacks in Indonesia, Thailand, Nigeria, Sudan, and against the citizens of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, and other Muslim countries — and they watch American Muslims play games instead of doing something about the problem.
All over the world Muslims are fleeing the fires of radicals that are burning down their religion and torturing and killing their poeple, and American Muslims file malicious lawsuits over their “civil rights” when their civil rights haven’t been violated by ANYBODY — and while the 146 hate crimes against Muslims in this country are DECRIED BY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO STAND UP FOR MUSLIMS AND REFUSE TO HAVE THEM THREATENED OR HARMED OR EVEN TO HAVE THEIR FEELINGS HURT.
All the while knowing there are sleeper cells run right out of American mosques.
You need to a have thought for the goodness of the people who have taken you among them and have loved and defended you as their own, and will continue to do so.
What you really need to be focused on now is the that fact that your religion is dying from the cancer within it, and you guys won’t even go get homeopathy for it, much less the chemotherapy it’ll probably require.
I think Izetbegovic said it best: It will take 1,000 years for Islam to live down that it has done in the last 35. And that if you get busy now.
In fact, most of the Muslims in this world have long since stopped living according the violent dictates of the eight mahdhabs (the eight was created just 4 years ago), and have lived a peaceful Islam that is gently responsive to modernization in a way that is completely healthy and incredibly and beautifully spiritually done.
In fact, those people are living what Sinclair calls “The Ninth Mahdhab”. It is now the responsibility of Muslims to create that mahdhab to GIVE MUSLIMS SOME PLACE TO GO THAT REALLY REFLECTS THEIR BELIEFS.
I would suggest you all start with the former Mufti of Marseilles. Or Gulen. Or the many others who have given you the ideological framework from which to build the Islam that can become the most beautiful religion the people of Earth have ever known.
I love you. I will continue to support you. But I will never stop the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Allah bless and keep you.
I have never been to America before, and I am not familiar with any American Muslims. I’ve never worked with them and I don’t even know the percentage of their existence. Maybe that shows how little impact they have in our part of the world.
That’s why we don’t seek them out and ask for help. They are safe, rich and powerful, they simply don’t care. Many of them probably aren’t religious at all (at least here in the Arab world, the rich are rarely amongst the religious.)
Esra, I’m real low on herd mentality. You’re in no position to tell anybody to “get with the program.” See, this is the problem. If somebody talks about something you don’t want to talk about, they’re told to “get with the program.” This kind of restriction of what Muslims and those who love them talk about it is not good for the resolution of the problem.
But, I’ve clearly had a lot to say, and will leave it to you now. Thank you for listening. And what I DEEPLY appreciate is what I find on this forum 99.9% of the time. I think you guys are great, and you do NOT simply censor everything you don’t particularly like. I think you’re brave and beautiful.
Read Fouad Ajami’s The Arab Predicament.
Meredith, “get with the program” means “get relevant.” My post had nothing to do with American Muslims whom I know nothing about.
I already did and I reviewed it for this site.
Esra … you wrote:
That’s why we don’t seek them out and ask for help. They are safe, rich and powerful, they simply don’t care. Many of them probably aren’t religious at all (at least here in the Arab world, the rich are rarely amongst the religious.)
That makes me so sad. I apologize. I’ve gone off on my own tangent, and perhaps I shouldn’t have done that. You can’t possibly imagine how brave I think Muslims overseas standing up against this problem really are. I think knowing how brave they are and have been makes me all the more shocked that American Muslims have taken the self-centered tack they’ve taken. It just shocks me. So I will leave this discussion now and thank you for your responses and your time.
Thanks a lot for your comments. I found them good and insightful despite some possible miscommunication here.
Thank you, too, Esra’a.
I read you guys all the time, and I think you are AMAZING and FANTASTIC.
Esra’a I agree with you, but also with levylevthuglife who said it goes both ways. I think it is a more destructive force when it comes to Islam however because of its size, growth, power and internal conflicts. I wish to see the day when everyone would put their differences aside and fight extremism in one hand, as people who all want the same things.
Isra’a,
As an American Muslim, I am insulted at the fact that you would say “They simply do not care”. You have your rights as a majority in a Muslim country while we struggle with breaking stereotyping. I personally have been explaining Islam at schools, Churches, Synagogues, Hindu temples etc, for 20 years, way before 9/11 and since I was a young girl in school. What I find is that Americans, who you say love those who hate Islam, are open and are willing to listen and even change their minds. I am yet to get ONE, only ONE Imam who would allow a non Muslim to explain his/her faith at a Masjid.
One of the issues that non Muslims have a problem with is why is it that we welcome Muslims, allow them to live freely and worship freely and give in to their demands for sensitivity and give them the right to preach about their faith, but the Muslim world will arrest and even kill those who they even suspect of doing the same? For Americans, it is hypocrisy, no matter what the Muslims say.
Ya Isra’a even the crazy right wind administration that we have, had opened its doors to Muslims and Islam and made it illegal to attack a Muslim (verbally or physically) just because they are Muslims but I read the news and watch TV and also visit of course, the Arab world. You want to talk about hate and eradicating hate? The amount of hate that is state sanctioned in the Arab and Muslim world against others, especially Jews, is not only appalling, it is the direct reason for the death of so many Palestinians, including members of my family. Yet, stupid, cheap, disgusting BUT harmless speech done by a small minority of nuts, offends everyone. Have you looked in a mirror and asked yourself; “Can I say that I do not hate any nation/faith/country/people etc, before I can tell others that it is wrong to hate us? Have you really looked at Islam (the way it is presented and taught) and asked yourself, would I follow this if I was not born into it? Did you see the petition that was launched against the Islamo-fascism week and are you aware that it is a Jewish website? Even though the Jews were the ones who launched an actual defense against Islam hate, did you read some of the comments by Muslims, including a dua, asking Allah to destroy all Jews (which was not even the topic for that petition)?
As a bit of background, I come from a Palestinian family. My mother was Catholic Palestinian from the original people who’ve been there since Jesus and my father was a so called Muslim. Because he was a so called, he didn’t practice and we grew up knowing very little about Islam and treating it as a culture. All my siblings remain “so called” and rightfully, hate it because they judge it by the people who practice it (again, so called) and by the well below intelligent and educated imams who are replacing the words of Allah in their teaching. I couldn’t make sense of their teaching, felt that I’m insulting my own intelligence to read about others from Islamic books, had enough of the same exact things repeated by different authors and refused to let a human, imam or not, to tell me what he believes Allah wants me to feel. I studied Islam as a way to give me a reason to leave it and not look back, planning to write about how vicious, anti women and anti humanity it is. However, I found that these ARE true traits of people, Muslims who really and truly insulted Islam and destroyed it by their damaging action, vs. words of non Muslims which causes no real damage to Islam.
I found Islam to be almost the opposite of the accepted practices and the mathematical manner of approaching doing the right thing (you do this and earn this many 7asanat) and I found that if I just allowed my conscious to lead, Allah will guide me to feel the right thing. I embraced the Quranic Islam, proudly wore my hijab and my faith is fully based on understanding and respect not blind faith but my experience led me to shun any means of tribalism and herd mentality. It earned me lots of critics (and some fans) from the Muslim community but I absolutely refuse to repeat what everyone says or believe something that I do not read about search and have 100% of its authenticity, even if it means that I’ll speak against my own. Islam taught me that unless the truth is as clear as the sun in my eyes, I can’t say it as a fact because that is bearing false witness; Haram!
Hate, my dear sister Isra’a, is a very “modern day Islamist” concept. Read your books. Ironically, Islam and Islamic in its true form is innocent of that. Therefore, before speaking, weight the damage done by the so called Islamic teaching and less than human Imams (some of them anyway) vs. the damage done by others who criticize Islam. For that matter, try to stand outside of being a Muslim and tell me, how, with all the hate and killing and justifications of it, can we really convince anyone that Islam is a religion of peace? You see, people like me speak against the accepted Islamic teaching and do not stand on the “Islam is peace” while hiding our heads in the sand to the actions of Muslims. We admit that bad Muslims exist like terrorist, hate mongers which includes imams who give hate filled khutba and dua such as May Allah destroy the enemies of Islam and break their mother’s hearts, those who treat women as 127th class at best, bashers of other faiths and nations, worshipers and creators of conspiracy theories etc… But when we say that they are bad but do not represent and may not even understand Islam and that they are wrong, we are seen as Anti Islam or those “who hates the faith and is outspoken about” as you say. Sorry my dear, Muslims, are just ordinary humans, nothing special and just like any ordinary humans they can be evil, bad, stupid, malicious and they can be good, upstanding, intelligent, caring etc… but I and so do many others who are trying to work with the Muslim and non Muslims to revive the real Islam and bury the sorry excuse for it, we refuse to become herds and tribal and to kill our perfect faith that was given in a perfect form from our creator to seek approval of the created so they won’t accuse us of hating our faith. For that, we take risks from both sides but regardless of what you believe and think, we do care much more than you can ever imagine.
Regardless, I agree with Meredith, you are great people here and the first time I actually see a website that has such an open and respectful discussion.
Thanks you
Salma
Meredith, you expect us to condemn every single bad thing other Muslims do yet I never see Jews condemning Robert Goldstein or people in the right condemning Congressman Tom Tancredo for his “bomb Mecca” comments. Or what about Catholics for what the Phalangist scum did in Sabra and Shatila, or the evangelicals’ inability to condemn the Lord’s Resistance Army?
Here’s some food for thought on your need for us to condemn every single thing Muslims do: Myth of Muslim Condemnation
Keep a leash on your own animals before commenting on others.
And Meredith, here’s some American Muslim bloggers who do exactly the same fucking thing that you are excessively PMS’ing about:
Here’s a blog post on extremist Muslims attacking this Muslim blogger
Another African-American Muslim convert who often speaks out against radical Muslims
from my perception I find that muslims never care about the bad things that go on in islamic countries, especially if its happening to non-muslims. but became ABSOLUTELY INCENSED if anyone else points it out, or in any way questions, criticizes, or mocks their religion.
this is shallow crap. muslims asking for freedom for THEIR religion are hypocrites as long as 99% of islamic countries, nearly all of islamic history, all the schools of sharia specifically outlaw freedom of religion. islam is the #1 destroyer of human rights on the planet, but if you listen to a muslim tell it some crazy christian fundie in ohio is more to blame than all the rulings done in the name of islam.
Ah, after a fairly civilized conversation, we get Danial, with a foul mouth and obvious misogyny. So it’s PMS to suggest that American Muslims get off their butts and do something other than try to weasel one more TV interview and special consideration?
For your information, you will find me all over the internet taking out the likes of Tom Tancredo, absolutely scathing him for his comments. And at the time that the Phalanges attacked the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and killed hundreds — which happened when I was about 35 years old — I vigorously protested, sending letters of protest both to the Maronite hierarchy and the Vatican and speaking out against it in the churches which I attended. This lost me a great deal of business and many friends (I am Melkite Catholic), who said then what you are saying now: Don’t criticize us. Don’t ask us to do anything. Don’t say we have to stand against our own.
But that is exactly what I said: The only morality is standing against your own when they are doing wrong things.
And no, condemnation is not enough. It’s tissue in the wind. You have to take political and probably military action, and you will need to do that BEFORE you are completely overrun and destroyed. The West will not be taken. It will fight and it has the capacity to win. And it will slam the door on Muslims eventually. It’s only a matter of time. There will likely be civil war in Europe to settle the matter there, as there has been before.
My concern is not about the West. My concern is about whether Muslims continue to be free to make choices rather than have the most vicious, radical element rule them like they are slaves.
The point is that it is ALWAYS the case that the worst among us, whatever our religion, are the ones willing to do horrible things that the rest of us could never do. With regard to the radical Islamists, ask yourself this question:
If you expect me to condemn the Phalanges and stand up against them (two different actions), then I expect you to do the same.
And I did my part. I fought the Vatican about it, and I caught considerable hell about it.
Are you willing to fight the schools of figh that will NOT organize the mass of Muslims to reject it in home, mosque, medressa, and government?
And as far as PMS goes, I would remind you that whatever pain there is involved with that, the rate of crime worldwide is 97.8% men and 2.2% women. The state of anxiety or irrationality that women experience occasionally seems to be the status quo for men, who can’t wait to go to war. The nature of women is two-fold: they are basically very gentle, but they will not be quiet when they see wrong.
Please forward the name of the film you reference. I should very much like to promote it here as I am a television producer, among other things. Thank you.
Esra’a, you forgot that you do have one American Muslim here in the ME, and that’s me, and there are others here in Bahrain who choose to live here and discover true Islam one day at a time, one act of kindness and love at a time… the Islam of beauty and peace and coexistence. Too much has been said here already (wow, 23 comments in a new thread?).
BTW, Danial, I think the truth is we are going to have to work on both things at once — radical Islam and the unfairness of some.
My point here is that AMERICAN Muslims are way off track and really basically full of it. They do nothing but talk, don’t strongly back women’s rights, the end of slavery in African states, the disenfranchisement of women in African and Middle Eastern states, and the advancement of EXTREME shari’a all over the place. Instead, they play like they are ever-so, ever-so discriminated against, which is a despicable manipulation. See the facts above for that.
Interesting that you expect us to be perfect before we can say anything about you. You certainly aren’t perfect, but that doesn’t stop you from bringing up our faults.
You SHOULD bring up our faults. And we should bring up yours. After all, fair is fair. Right?
My problem with the way you guys act is that while you are playing silly little games, your religion is being destroyed from within. And we don’t have the means to stop that. Only you have those means, and you squander your resources and energies pretending you are the victims of us, when, in fact, we’re protecting you all over the place as well as holding in trust the freedoms you have in the West and are losing everywhere else.
Now, I think you should consider whether you would like my son to talk to YOUR mother as you have just talked to me.
In fact, my son spends most of his time defending Muslims and he would not think of telling some woman angry at the United States to go take some Midol. Days like this, I think my husband is lucky to have died before all this happened. Otherwise, he’d be so angry he’d have been just beside himself to see a woman spoken of in such a way.
Damn… this is really a crap-slinging fest. As a person who has been living here in the ME for three years now, I came here with some stereotypes, thanks to western media. On a daily basis from that point on, I have seen so much and have been a part of many things that one does not hear about in the west, and what I am talking about is daily life. Everybody I know here in Bahrain, UAE, Qatar, Saudia, Kuwait and other regions of the ME have the same problems and concerns as any regular person in the west has. The west doesn’t see it because it is not news that sells. Everybody I know who is an expat or someone who was here for a short duration quickly comes to the same conclusions as I have- the western media has concocted a distorted view of the ME. As for Islam, the part you see in the west are the 1%’ers who have ruined our image with their own agendas covered with the false proclamation that what they are doing is for the good of Islam. They do not speak for the huge majority of us, and you are right in the fact that we, the Islamists, need to fix our own house. One of the characteristics of the average ME’er is one of no direct confrontation. This is a characteristic one can see in many different situations here, and yes, I get irritated by it, but it is something I cannot change. I can influence it, as I have on other issues, but I cannot eradicate it. In the west, notably America, issues that rile people up are confronted directly in a quick manner. If that is what the west is expecting from us, then one is in for a very long wait.
I was talking about the rich and powerful, not the average American Muslim, whom I hardly come across.
Bob,
That is absolutely incorrect, but it’s how we are portrayed in foreign media outlets, which pisses us off.
Most Muslim activists are active towards issues happening within their own countries especially if it’s religiously motivated. You will find many Muslims fighting for minority rights too. Like I said we even established the Muslim Network for Baha’i Rights, we defend Jewish and Christian minority rights through ME Faith and there are many Muslims who do much more than us as well.
It’s not our fault that your news doesn’t report them or make you aware of such efforts. You should never assume that they don’t exist just because you don’t hear about it. This is our biggest problem which my post revolves around. Assumptions based on ignorance is no longer inconvenient, it’s becoming dangerous, justifying things as big as war.
there are numerous muslim fluff stories here, but I do admit news is mostly bad, whether it be about mexicans or teachers or muslims; good news/human interest stories are decreasing in popularity. and I never said they don’t exist, absolutes like that are unnecessary. there are neo-nazi’s in america but I wouldn’t call america friendly to neo-nazi’s. just like I’m sure there are rights activists in the ME. but who stops those rights activists? islam. islam destroys the women’s shelters in afghanistan, islamic rulings declare the bahai heretics and slaughter them. islamic sharia courts in malaysia steal the children of apostates. you are fighting against this, but you are fighting against the ISLAMIC rulings.
I am very happy to know there are people against this. but from my perspective those ppl are fighting islam. and the more islamic a country gets, the more likely it is to slaughter human rights.
Well that is strictly a very personal opinion, an argument I profoundly disagree with but is too irrelevant to get into.
all my opinions are personal opinions. I was unaware there were other options. and you can disagree/discard it all you like. but a quick look at the justification used against human rights/womens rights/gay rights groups in any country that considers itself islamic is….wait for it….islam.
maybe this is uncomfortable for you that ppl scream allah ackbar while calling for the oppression of women, the stoning of gays and denial of religious freedom to minorities. but it is a pervasive reality of the world we live in.
Can you tell us how many Muslim countries stone gays?
May I remind you that gays are still strictly discriminated against in many parts of the Western world too? May I also remind you of the fact that many Muslims are discriminated against and stigmatized in the West by people who hold the similar stereotypical views that you do?
Stoning gays, denying religious rights and oppressing women is not common where I’m from. We have female ministers, a Jewish representative in government along with at least 2 Christian ones, and we also have 7 churches. We also have Hindu and Baha’i minorities. And yeah, I’m from a Muslim country. Take that for tolerance.
I hold no stereotypes against ppl. I do hold opinions against ideologies, conflating the two is disingenuous, and is one of the main reasons ppl are growing to hate muslims, because they can not hold an opinion about islam w/o muslims screaming at them.
I think what I’m running up again is the minority rule. are you denying the pervasive reality of islamic bigotry towards women and gays in the vast majority of muslim countries? or the denial of freedom of religion? most notably to apostates?
you want to argue from emotion, I want to argue from reality. reality is that islam is the #1 destroyer of human rights on the planet. its ideologies, its laws, its justifications are numero uno. and no pointing the blame at others, or talking about your exceptions changes that.
Esra’a …
Well, I need to jump in here again and say I do NOT, NOT, NOT agree with what bob says.
It is true that the way that sharia has been built BY IMAMS, not by ALLAH, entrenches bad laws against women, gays and non-Muslims. This is the result of abrogation, in which early religious “authorities” crafted an Islam that bore no resemblance to the transcendental religion found in the Meccan verses.
Worldwide, the VAST majority of Muslims do not subscribe to any sort of discrimination against any group, as evidenced by the Pancasila doctrine CRAFTED BY MUSLIMS, and now challenged by extremists. Pancasila treats the God concept as incorporating images from Islam, two forms of Christianity which are taken separately from each other, Hinduism and Buddhism. That’s Indonesia, the fourth most populous nation in the world and the having a population of Muslims equal to that of the Pakistan and India combined, and larger than the entire Middle East.
Be careful, bob. Islam has problem now, but the one it has it is no worse than the one we Christians had that was ALSO based on doctrinal distortion, the fiats of the Pope against the Knights Templar every bit as gruesome as anything Islamic now. And anybody who doesn’t think another religion can use twisted doctrine to make war on women has never read the Malleus Maleficarum, claimed by its Papal author as divinely given by God Almightly. This book details exactly how you torture a woman. It makes sadoporn pale in comparison.
Remember also that it was a Muslim Sultan of the Ottoman empire who saved 2 million Jews expelled from Christian Spain. The Sultan so jammed Cadiz harbor with ships come to take the Jews to seven UNWALLED enclaves built for them, completely with synagogues, trading centers, schools and housing, that Christopher Columbus had to set sail from Ponte de Frontera south of Cadiz on the Spanish Atlantic coast.
Have compassion. It is not easy to watch a religion go through this, but Islam today is no worse than the Christianity of the past. And as Danial pointed out, massacres by Christians in Lebanon (and also in Kosovo) are less than 25 years old in the first case and less than 15 in the second.
We can express our anger at being attacked, at the games played when the situation is so desperate, but Muslims deserve compassion as well as straight talk. But for the grace of God go we in the same place, because, in absolute truth, we’ve been there before, and the people who call for the nuking of Mecca and Medina are a hair’s bredth from the same mentality — a mentality NOT shared by the vast majority of Muslims.
Bob,
You did not answer my question.
List the number of Muslim countries that “stone gays.” I want to know, and most importantly I want to make sure you become aware of the dangerous fallacies you are throwing around.
Let’s argue the facts. If you cannot answer that question then you are clearly not knowledgeable enough about the faith to continue this discussion.
You say I argue from emotion; by presenting my country’s case with factual information? How is it that you speak from “reality”? What have you done here other than make uninformed claims about our societies?
I am not sure, now that I think about it I think iran merely hangs gays, though perhaps they stone them in some parts. I will concede to you the bigotry is varied. the more islamic places are worse, nigeria, iran, saudi arabia. while some more secular areas are better, but in the end it is still the islamic side calling for more bigotry and the non-islamic side pleading for more human rights.
one example is malaysia, once considered the shining beacon of muslim modernity now does its slow inexorable islamist march into more discrimination and more oppression. the sharia courts are granted more sway.
perhaps though you are not interested in the thrust of what I am saying, but interested in playing gotcha. and then “dismissing” me for some gotcha. again disingenuous, I am afraid you are slowly making it clear that you are being disingenuous in this whole discussion.
and btw meredith, I’m not christian.
Also, in Texas sodomy is illegal, and men have been tried for it and jailed for it. But not stoned, at least not legally. But I do remember the teenage boy who was lashed to a fence and tortured to death. You’ll remember that, no, bob?
True, in many non-Muslim countries there are not LAWS against homosexuality. But NOT ALL.
In India, it’s a LIFE SENTENCE. Trididad and Tobago, Aruba, Belize, etc., give people up to 25 years for being gay.
Don’t have time to do more on this, but the situation for women, gays, etc. is not good in many places.
Sure Bob, whatever blows your hair back. I’m not the one making baseless and uninformed claims here. Think twice before you publish your comments next time.
For a list of the laws re: homosexuality in the whole world and the sentences, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world
Bob, you know, rather than asking somebody else to provide information to them (making them your secretary cum research assistant) you could look it up yourself.
Esra’a re your last: Well said.
yes meredith, islam doesn’t have the patent on bigotry, its just leading the pack. obviously our christians here in america(where I’m from) mimic in kind if not extremeness many typicaly conservative “abrahamic” religious talking points. hating the gays being a popular one.
more generally as a liberal when I see islam the greatest threat I see isn’t from the terrorists. its from sharia law. sharia law is like the liberal anti-christ, it is the destruction of all we’ve fought for hundreds of years. its like communism vs capitalism. human rights vs sharia. the fight is on, it is IMO going to be one of the most important fights of the 21st century. and certainly the most important fight for human rights in the 21st century.
Meredith is absolutely correct. A great many Americans feel exactly that way but wouldn’t dare say it publicly for fear of the verbal bashing (and possible violence) that would follow.
Do you know what would make the West believe in and support the “moderate” Muslims? Action. Has there ever been a protest where people burned every copy of the “Elders of Zion” they could find, denouncing it as hate-promoting racism? Did the largest mosque in Sydney have its attendance drop to zero following the remarks of the “cat meat” Imam? Have there been protest rallies by the moderates of Lebanon demanding the return of the two Israeli soldiers? Have there been Fatwahs by American Imams that’s it’s okay to run a plastic wrapped package of bacon across the laser scanner in a supermarket, or to let a blind man’s dog into your cab?
Yes, there are many courageous individuals, including some authors on this site, but if the extremists are really only 0.1% of the Muslim population then the 99.9% ought go be able to drive them out. What the West wonders is: why is the huge moderate population so tolerant of those extremists they say are betraying Islam?
How many of you all understand Sharia Law? How many of you understand it to the point that you can call foul on a person who is professing Sharia Law? How many of you are just taking someone’s opinion of it and taking it as the truth? How many of you understand it enough to even form an opinion of it? How many of you even understand Islam? How many of you just form your opinions on Islam based on what you see on TV?
I invite those who have never even lived outside the USA or spent any real considerable time in a Muslim country to come out and experience it for yourself before making an assessment. Don’t rely on us who live here to give you an opinion. Just come out and experience it. I also invite you to visit a few mosques around you and talk openly with the imams and ask questions. I invite you to read the Quran, and if you come across something that does not agree with you, take that point up with the imams and get their interpretation. After that, go to a church and talk with the priest or pastor and ask them what do they know of Islam, the Quran and Sharia Law. As a person who was raised a Buddhist, who was a Christian and now a Muslim, I’ve done my reading and questioned the parts that did not sit well with me. The Quran requires study, just as any religious document does, for how can one be a good this or a good that if they don’t even know what their religion is based on or even if the faith one professes is even relevant to them? Would you follow a person who cannot answer the basic questions on all the faiths out there? With all this, again, I ask you how many of you understand Islam and the Quran? If you choose to not research Islam, study the Quran and compare it to the Bible, the Torah and to other religious writings, then you are in no way a person who can justifiably argue a point regarding Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Ba’hai or any religion, for that matter. All you are doing is basing your arguments on what you see on TV or read in the paper. How many of you have read a news article just to find that another medium of media presented that news article in a different light or even 180 degrees out? Believe me, it exists.
There are for too many posts for me to quote, so I’ll just make a big one.
Firstly, attacking Christianity or any other religion in defense of Islam is irresponsible. Their wrong does not make yours right. But for those insisting on bringing Christianity into this. 1. Crusades, Inquisitions, etc- none of these events can be justified through scripture. These atrocities were perpetrated by men with their own agenda, not God’s. And committed by the RCC who i believe are in many respects similar to Islam(but we will not get into that).2. All the verses quoted from the Bible trying to reveal it’s violent nature are all taken out of context. All of those verses from the Old testament pertained to a certain time, place, and territory(Canaan).
Now, for Islam. Yes, there are passages in the Qur’an that indicate a peaceful nature or a violent one. Passages in the Second surah for example seem to suggest war only if attacked first. While the ninth and fifth surahs speak of Muslims taking the offensive and killing infidels where they find them. So here is where a very important conecpt comes in- abrogation. Basically the newer verses override the conflicting prior verses. Chronologically the Fifth and ninth Surah were the very last revealed, therefore replacing the seemingly defensive verses with offensive ones.
Another key point is Islam’s history. Is wasn’t the Meccan’s who drew blood first, it was the Muslims. Right after they migrated to Medina they began raiding local Meccan caravans. Muhammad participated in 75 raids and battles, which of only two were defensive.
Dawoud …
It seems to me that to a certain degree we are all DOING what we are complaining about with each other.
For example, I have had Muslim friends from 19 countries for more than 35 years. I am a writer and producer and have spent extensive time in foreign countries, including three in the Middle East. I have read the Qur’an cover to cover four times, have a copy of the Tarjuman al-Ashwaq next to my bed all the time and read it before sleeping every evening, and have also read extensively on everything from Islamic poetry to interpretations and fatawa extending back to the Ottoman qada and previous to that to the times right after the Prophet’s death. My opinions are NOT crafted of television and newspapers.
The simple fact is that shari’a is the invention of scholars, not Prophets, and a great deal of desert tribalist cruelty from Arabia and Africa is absolutely threaded through it.
For example, FGM is NOT an Islamic tradition, but shafi’i Islam requires circumcism both of men and of women.
The Qur’an plainly state that there shall be compulsion in religion, but then surah 2.259 is abrogated according to classical Muslim interpretation. Surah 9.5, according to classical interpretion, abrogates no fewer than 124 peaceful, beautiful, purely spiritual verses of the Qur’an.
And *all of that* abrogation finds itself woven through the shari’a to the detriment of non-Muslims, women, and people of non-heterosexual orientation.
Yes, I quite understand that the Hanafi fiqh which is the most prevalent in the world does its dead-level best to get out of this abrogation disaster, but it, too, on balance fails. Not from a lack of trying, but because the heads of fiqh don’t want to mess with each other.
In fact, most Muslims in this world do NOT follow any of the classical schools of fiqh and have slipped out of province of such desert tribalist mores to go and live peacefully and happily all over the world.
And before you insult me again, Dawoud, maybe you ought to consult the women around you before you try to sell me the sharia.
I have many Muslim women friends, and 90% of the world’s leading Islamic feminists are personal friends of mine, and I KNOW what goes on, and I don’t need to hear it from YOU, who make completely unbased assumptions about what I do and do not know.
That said, I am happy that you have found peace and happiness in Islam. Truly, most people who follow the religion do find that peace and happiness, because despite the abrogation by warlords and others with a lust for power down across centuries of time, most Muslims have the good sense to follow the religion outlined in the original Meccan verses and to take the others in the historical context to which they belong. Long since have they stopped operating law according to the hadith, even of al-Muslim and al-Bukhari, because recent scholarship has shown them that the bases of those hadith are quite obvious of “Iraqi origin” in a time that the “memories” coming out of Baghdad were being transmitted under duress.
Those people I congratulate. May they win the day, the decade, the century and the future for the core of Islam as Allah and the Prophet intended it, not as the warlords and “scholars” who screwed it up made it.
I’ve read the koran, its often vile, sometimes nice. the hadith are worse. and its culminated into absolute illiberal horror in the schools of sharia. non-muslims get this a lot though. this “you are being insensitive and lied to by the evil media.” I find it all crap. islam and sharia are out in the open ACROSS THE GLOBE as some of the worst abusers of human rights.
I noticed another thing, muslim “inter-faith” days that always get pushed down our throats in the west, aren’t really inter-faith at all. they are muslim propaganda days. which again sours people even more.
btw meredith you keep talking about only the meccan verses. I understand that the koran is split somewhat in attitude between mecca and medina. do you have a version of koran with only the meccan verses? i would be willing to re-read it with only those verses to see if it makes a large difference.
preferably even one in chronological order too(man not having that is annoying).
And Dawoud …
I know it is painful to hear criticism of one’s religion. My point is that if the criticism isn’t heard and taken seriously while there is still time, the good Muslims of this world will be overtaken and cruelly treated by the bad guys. It’s happening everywhere already. In the last 6 years alone, more than 30,000 Muslims have been killed by other Muslims (and this is outside Iraq where the Muslim-on-Muslim violence is worst). Please see the work of Dr. Jerrold Post on the establishment of theocratic societies (Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the kind Al Qaeda is planning). His work explains why NO MATTER WHAT THE RELIGION, theocratic states MUST become ever more conservative, why they must find or invent an enemy, why in the end they torture the entire citizenry.
Before the advent of the 20th century, there was, according to Dr. Houchang Chehabi, a professor in some of my graduate studies at Harvard, no state other than Saudi Arabia that EVER had sharia as its only form of law, not even for Muslims.
If shari’a is instituting anywhere as the only form of law, you get … Saudi Arabia: repressive, with a conversion to Christianity carrying the DEATH PENALTY. How’s that for “there shall be no compulsion in religion”? It’s a COMPLETE distortion of the spiritual intent of Islam.
So, fear the purely theocratic state. Fear also the purely ethnic state for roughly the same reason, but with a slightly different face.
In Nazi Germany we got both: They created a religion based on ethnicity, invented an enemy, and then made war on the world.
Osama is not far behind on this, though he can’t manage the ethnicity part as Islam is not a racial or ethnic religion, but the first religion in the world to mark the equality of the races and the genders. It’s an almost unimaginable miracle in the time in history in which it comes. It is the only religion to make part of its recipe of giving the freeing of slaves, those poor souls singled out as one of the five recipients of zakat.
Got to go.
Thank you all for the conversation. You’re all magnificent, you know.
A suggestion:
Read Turkish Islamic theorist Mustafa Akyol. His whole site (www.thewhitepath.org) is wonderful. In English and Turkish, but, alas, no Arabic.
One very incredible article not to miss is:
http://www.thewhitepath.com/archives/2004/10/a_case_for_islamic_renewal.php
Mustafa Akyol is the most joyous Muslim I have ever met. He is the op-ed editor of Turkish Daily News. He is also becoming a major figure in Turkish politics. I have encouraged him to run for office, and I hope he does. I think he may one day be Prime Minister of Turkey. He is the best example of the best of Islam I have ever known. I hope you all will find in what he says the beauty and joy and hope I have found.
Much love to all of you …
Meredith
You have missed the point of my comment- questions and recommendations without taking a stance on anything. I am asking you all what are your qualifications on any religion to go making a judgement call on it. I am asking you what do you know of Sharia Law to even have an opinion of it. I ask all of you that know nothing of anything firsthand to study the subject matter before you even try to make an assessment. Is that too much to ask?
I insulted you? How so? You made the jump that I am a proponent of Sharia. SO don’t YOU ever make a judgement call on me again before you understand the jist and the meaning of what I wrote- simple questions and recommendations. You make me sound as if I am the type of person who loves to put the heel into the side of women. For that, I am insulted. I was raised by women most of my life. A woman brought me into this world. Women are the bearers of us all. No man could ever do that, nor can any man ever do or put up with what a woman can, and they have my total respect. Even as a Muslim man, I do not agree with the way women are treated and regarded. I do not need to justify myself to you or to anybody.
It hurts to hear of my religion? No, it does not. Again, you are making an assumption. With all of your studies and your works, you should know assumptions should never be made, for that is the thought process of novices. Thank for making me look like an ass because you failed to even see the context of my comment. Again, pre-charged/pre-judgmental.
Meredith, I take it that you did not even once bother to click on the links I posted.
The film is called Khuda Kiya Liye, for future reference.
Dawoud …
I’m not going to entertain your bashing any longer. If the efforts I have made to understand Islam aren’t good enough for you (and, in fact, there is great specificity in what I have said), then guess what? I don’t CARE if it’s not good enough for you.
The bottom line is this: ANYBODY WHO HAS BEEN MADE A TARGET OF AL QAEDA, WHICH HAVE VERSES OF THE QUR’AN SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS TO JUSTIFY THE SLAUGHTER, HAS **** EVERY RIGHT **** TO QUESTION ISLAM AND **** EVERY RIGHT **** TO DEMAND SOME ATTENTION FROM MUSLIMS TO THE PROBLEM, THE REAL PROBLEM, NOT THE MADE-UP LITTLE “I’M SO INSULTED” RANTS WE GET HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.
I have made it enormously clear that I greatly admire Islam and greatly support Muslims. If you knew how much time I spent defending Islam and Muslims you’d be shocked.
Meanwhile, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET has to go become an expert on Islam to suit you. And nobody has to become an expert to know that when verses of the Qur’an are used to call for war against them SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG SOMEWHERE.
As evidence I give you the following. Look at the Qur’anic quotes here, and then tell me I have to become an Islamic scholar or ask your permission to comment.
COME TO JIHAD: A SPEECH TO THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN
All praise is due to Allah, we praise him and seek his aid and forgiveness, and we seek refuge in Allah from the evil in ourselves and from our bad deeds. He whom Allah guides cannot lead astray, and he who is led astray cannot be guided. I bear witness that there is no God other than Allah alone, without partners and I bear witness that Muhammad is his slave and messenger.
To proceed:
To My Muslim Brothers In Pakistan:
Allah the Most High says:
“O prophet! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them. Their abode is hell, and an evil destination it is.” Quran 9:73
And the messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, says, “There is no one who abandons a Muslim in a place where his honor is violated and his sanctity is infringed upon except that Allah, the most high abandons him in a place in which he would like his aid. And there is no one who aids a Muslim in a place where his honor is violated and his sanctity is infringed upon except that Allah aids him in a place in which he would like his aid.”(Narrated by Ahmed)
Pervez’s invasion of Lal Masjid in city of Islam, Islamabad, is a bad event similar to the crime of the Hindus in their invasion and destruction of the Babri Masjid. And this event has crucial and significant connotations, most important of which are:
First, this event demonstrated Musharraf’s insistence on continuing his loyalty, submissiveness and aid to America against the Muslims, and this is one of ten nullifiers of Islam as the people of knowledge have determined and makes armed rebellion against him and removing him obligatory.
Allah the Most High says:
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.” Quran 5:51
And his statement “And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them” means that he is one of them in kufr (unbelief), as the people of tafseer (explanation) have said. This ruling was the one given and confirmed by Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, may Allah have mercy on him, in his famous fatwa following the raids on New York, and among the things he said: “If any ruler of an Islamic state provides aid to an infidel state in its aggression against the Islamic states, it is the legal obligation of the Muslims to remove him from power and consider him to be legally a traitor to Islam and Muslims.”
People Of Islam In Pakistan:
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, may Allah have mercy on him, discharged a great duty which was upon him and declared the word of truth and didn’t care about the anger of the creation. He endangered himself and his wealth and made clear the ruling of Allah regarding Pervez that he is a traitor to Islam and Muslims and must be removed. This fatwa enraged Pervez and enraged his masters in America, and it is my opinion that the murder of the Mufti, may Allah have mercy on him, was at their hands. And Mufti Nizzamuddin Shamzai died without having replaced the word of truth with falsehood, in contrast to what many of the ‘Ulema of vice’ do. And the obligation on us remains and we have been extremely late in carrying it out, six years having passed, so we should make up for lost time. May Allah forgive me as well as you.
Second, the government showing Maulana Ab al-aziz Ghazi in women’s clothing in the media is clear evidence of the extent of the great hostility, hatred and contempt held by Pervez and his government towards Islam and its sincere ‘Ulema, and that is greater kufr which takes one out of Islam.
Allah, the most high says:
“And if you question them, they will most surely say, “we were only talking idly and jesting”. Say was it Allah and his signs and his messenger which you were mocking. Make no excuses, you have certainly disbelieved after believing. If we forgive a party from among you, a party shall we punish for they are criminals.” Quran 9:65-66
And read if you wish, read the tafseer of Ibn Katheer may Allah have mercy on him regarding this ayat.
Third, in such events, the people are tested and the friends of the most merciful are separated from the friends of Shaytan. The Ulema who are from the friends of the most merciful declare the truth, and if they are unable or are weak, they observe silence and don’t help falsehood with their words of actions. As for the friends of Shaytan, they are led by Pakistani military intelligence to speak falsehood and help its people. Some of them deem it obligatory to unite with Pervez and his army, while others deemed martyrdom seeking fedayee operations against the soldiers of the Taghut (idol-king) as haraam, while still others assail the Mujahideen, slandering and defaming them. And this is the way of Munafiqeen (hypocrites).
Allah the Most High says:
“They are stingy (in helping) you and when the danger comes, you see them looking towards you, their eyes rolling like one fainting as death approaches. But when the fear has passed away, they assail you with sharp tongues being stingy with good deeds. Those have never believe, so Allah has rendered their words null and void and that is easy for Allah.” Quran 33:19
So everyone who refrained from helping the Imam Maulana Adb al-Rahid Ghazi is from the sitters, whereas those who attacked him to help Pervez, claiming that Islam isn’t established through fighting and calling fighting in the path of Allah “terrorism”- in the context of criticism and saying the way is through peaceful demonstrations and democratic methods are from those who have gone astray and followed the path of Munafiqeen.
Nearly two decades ago, the soil of Pakistan saw and was watered by the blood of a great Imam of Islam, the Mujahid champion Imam Abdullah Azzam, may Allah have mercy on him, and today, we have seen another great Imam not at the level of Pakistan alone, but at the level of entire Islamic Ummah, the Imam Maulana Abd Rasheed Ghazi, may Allah have mercy on him. He, his brothers, his students and the female students of Jamia Hafsa demanded the application of Shariah of Islam as understood the reason for our creation is that we worship Allah the Most High through his religion al-Islam, and they were killed because of this great objective.
Allah the Most High says:
“And I have not created jinn and men but they may worship Me.” Quran 51:56
They sacrificed the great thing they owned; they sacrificed themselves for their religion. I ask Allah to accept among the martyrs. They were killed treacherously and treasonously at the hands of the apostate infidel Pervez and his aides. They purpose of the army, so they say, is to protect the Muslims against the kuffaar. But now we see the armies becoming tools and weapons in the hands of the kuffaar against the Muslims.
Pervez threw away the cause of Kashmir and restrained those fighting to liberate it, in accordance with the wishes of the Hindus and the Nazarenes. Then he opened his bases and airports to America for invading the Muslims in Afghanistan and so you’ve seen before, the army attacked the people of Swat who also demand the rule of Shariah, and attacked the people of Waziristan, in addition to betraying and extraditing hundreds of Arab Mujahideen from the grandsons of the Sahaba (Companions), with whom Allah was pleased, to the head of kufr America. So Pervez, his ministers, his soldiers and those who help him are all accomplices in the spilling the blood of those of the Muslims who have been killed. He who helps him knowingly and willingly is an infidel like him. And as for those who aid him knowingly under compulsion, his compulsion isn’t legally valid as the soul of the one forced to kill isn’t better than the soul of the one killed.
And the messenger of Allah peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said, “Were all the inhabitants of the heavens and earth to participate in the spilling of a believer’s blood, Allah the great and glorious would throw them to the fire.”
So I tell the soldiers who perform the Salaat (prayer) in the military organs; you must resign from your jobs and enter into Islam and disassociate yourself from Pervz and his shirk (polytheism). Some of the munafiqeen among the Ulema of vice and others may say that Islam orders to stay together and people to unite with the army and government to stand in the face of enemies and avoid fitnah (strife). I say; the one who says this is creating lies about Allah. The government and army have become enemies of the Ummah, after becoming a weapon in the hands of the kuffaar against the Muslims. And they refuse to rule by the religion of Islam in all of life’s affairs, like politics, economy, social life and other matters. Allah has ordered these and their like to be fought, not to be united with and hung onto, as those hypocrites claim.
Allah the Most High says:
“And fight them until there’s no fitnah (polytheism) and religion is wholly for Allah.” Quran 8:39
So if someone of the religion is for Allah and some of it is for other than Allah, fighting is obligatory to make the religion entirely for Allah, the most high.
By the grace of Allah the Most High, we performed Jihad with the Afghan Mujahideen against the Russians, and the afghan army was a weapon in their hands against us. They would pray and fast but despite that the senior Ulema of the Islamic world, including the Ulema of Pakistan, ruled that they are to be fought. After the exit of the Russians, the Ulema of Pakistan also supported Taliban against the Northern Alliance, although they also pray and fast. So is there any difference between Pervez and his soldiers and Ahmed Shah Masood, Rabbani and Sayyaf and their soldiers? There is no difference at all; all of them have pledged to the cross worshippers to fight true Islam and its people. And those who say it is forbidden to fight Pervez and his soldiers and exclude him from the general ruling have an illness in their hearts; they prefer this life to the next.
Allah the Most High says:
“Are you unbelievers better than those or have you an immunity (from punishment) in the sacred books?” Quran 54:43
I tell Pervez and his army; your betrayal of your nation and people has been exposed, and the people are no longer fooled by your showing off the military by launching some missiles after the disaster and massacre you commit against the populace as has occurred repeatedly in the border regions, or after the enormous massacre in Lal Masjid recently. How is the nation benefited by the weapons and tests of yours? The same goes for the nuclear bomb itself. When the American foreign minister Powell came to you, you cowered, bowed and submitted to him like a lowly slave, and you permitted the American cross worshipper forces to use the air, soil and water of Pakistan, the country of Islam, to kill the people of Islam in Afghanistan, then in Waziristan.
So woe to you and away with you. Against the people you attack like lions and against the enemy like rabbits and ostriches? Your going to Makkah and performing the Tawaf (circling) of the Kaaba won’t benefit you when combined with kufr and combating of Islam and its people. Were it to benefit anyone in combination with kufr, it would have benefited Abu Lahab, the uncle of the messenger of Allah peace be upon him. Then some might say that armed rebellion against Pervez will lead to the spilling of blood. But I say; were the order to fight the apostate ruler from the people like Amr and Zayd then it would be permissible for minds and opinions to intervene and discuss what they should or should not do. However, as you know, the order of fight the apostate ruler is an order in the Shariah of Allah and it is not permissible for the Muslim to make his opinion rival to the word of Allah and order of his Messenger, peace be upon him.
Allah the Most High says:
“And it is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and his messenger have decided a matter, to exercise their own choice in the matter concerning them. And whoso disobeys Allah and his messenger manifestly astray.” Quran 33:36
So when capability is there, it is obligatory to rebel against the apostate ruler as is the case now. And the one who disbelieves that the strength required to rebel has not yet been completed must complete it and take up arms against Pervez and his army without procrastination. Pervez and most of the Muslim’s rulers jumped to power and usurped it and ruled us by other than what Allah sent down by force of arms, and the situation will not return to normal through elections, demonstrations and shouting. So beware of the polytheistic elections and futile actions, for iron is only dented by iron, and it is through fighting in Allah’s path and exhorting of the believers that the might of the kuffer is restrained.
Allah the Most High said:
“So fight in Allah’s cause- you are held responsible only for yourself- and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the might of the unbelievers. And Allah is strongest in might and strongest in punishment.” Quran 4:84
Fighting in Allah’s path is an act of worship, and it is based on sacrifice of selves. Muslim blood is spilled and poured to protect the religion which only reached us after his (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) cusped tooth was broken, his head cut open and his noble face bloodied and after the blood of best of people like Mus’ab, Zaid and Ja’far (with who Allah was pleased) was poured out. This is the path so follow it. The people have forgotten the path of victory, they think it comes easily or without blood running. Where is the Jihad of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him?
So to summarize, it is obligatory on the Muslims in Pakistan to carry out jihad and fighting to remove Pervez, his government and his army and those who help him. And it is obligatory on them to pledge allegiance to an Amir of believers who observes the rule of Shari’ah rather than Pervez’s polytheistic positive-law constitution. And the Muslims will not be successful in liberating themselves from slavery to Pervez and his polytheistic laws from many of the leaders and Ulema falsely affiliated with Islam who are in fact the first line of defence for Pervez and his government and army. You have seen with your own eyes the stances they took previously, when rather than moving to break the siege placed on the Muslims of Afghanistan, they moved to break the siege placed on their bases and airports which Pervez gave to America and from which the planes were taking off to pound us in Tora Bora, Kabul, Kandahar, Paktia, Nangarhar and other places.
And for your information, Pervez only dared to invade Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa after he was satisfied that most of the Ulema and leaders of the Jama’ats (groups) had renounced the Jihad which Allah the Most High legislated to enforce the truth and whose banner was tied by the messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). They replaced it with polytheistic democratic solutions and with peaceful demonstrations and bogus threats to absorb the anger of masses. Pervez had tested them before, when he broke the back of the Islamic Emirate in Afghanistan, after which they came to him voluntarily and of their own accord to participate in the polytheistic parliament as if nothing had happened.
So O people of Islam in Pakistan: the truth is greater than everyone, and if truth is not greater than everyone and if we don’t apply the Hudud (punishments) to both the nobleman and weak, that is road to ruin as the messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) informed us when he said, “Those before you were ruined because when the nobleman among them stole, they would let him go but when the weak one among them stole, they would execute on him the Hadd (punishment). And by He in whose hand is my soul, were Fatima, daughter of Muhammad to steal, I would cut off her hand.” (Agreed Upon)
O youth of Islam in Pakistan: the pen is writing what is for you and what is against you, and it wont benefit you to make excuses by saying that many of your Ulema and leaders have allied themselves to infidel rulers and the rest have failed to speak the truth and declare it out of fear of the ruling Taghut, except those on whom Allah has had mercy and these are either in prison or on the run. This huge disaster like the marching of the ulema of vice in line with the apostate ruler and their currying favor with him and attacking of the sincere Mujahid Ulema isn’t peculiar to Pakistan but rather is a disaster covering the entire Islamic Ummah. And there is no power nor might except with Allah.
So O people of Islam in Pakistan: every one of you will come alone to Allah the Most High and be held accountable for his own actions, so discharge your duty. The messenger of Allah peace be upon him has said, “ The smart one is who subdues himself and works for what comes after death, and the feeble one is he who lets his self chase after its desires and then hopes from Allah.” And be aware that as the jihad becomes an individual obligation, as is the case today, there are only two ways with no third: either jihad which is the way of the messenger peace be upon him and those who believed with him, or sitting which is the way of the disobedient ones and munafiqeen. So make your choice.
Allah the Most High has says:
“They prefer to be with the womenfolk who remain behind at home, so their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. But the messenger and those who believe with him strive(in the cause of Allah) with their wealth and their persons, and it is they who shall have good things and it is they who shall prosper.” Quran 9:87-88
And we in the al-Qaeda organization call on Allah to witness that we will retaliate for the blood of Maulana abd al-Rasheed Ghanzi and those with him against Musharraf and those who help him and for all the pure and innocent blood, foremost of which is the blood of the champions of Islam in Waziristan, both north and south, among them the two noble leaders, Nek Muhammad and Abdullah Mahsud. May Allah have mercy on them all. The tribes of Waziristan have made a great stand in the face on international Kufr America and its allies and its agents and the major states have been unable to make the stands they have made. They have been made resolute in this stance by their Iman (faith) in Allah the Most High and their tawakkul (reliance) on him. And they have withstood huge sacrifices of souls and wealth. We ask Allah to compensate them well. And Muslims shall not forget these magnificent stances, and the blood of the ulema of Islam and leaders of the Muslims and their offspring will not be spilled in vain or neglected as long as there remains in us a pulsing vein or a blinking eye. We ask Allah to fulfill that.
O Allah our Lord accept those of our brothers and sisters who have been killed and among the martyrs and heal the wounded; O Allah make their graves spacious for them, and take care of their families and raise their grades in ‘Illiyen’ (heaven);
O Allah Pervez, his ministers, his Ulema and his soldiers have been hostile to your friends in Afghanistan and Pakistan especially in Waziristan, Swat, Bajaur and Lal Masjid; O Allah break their backs, split them up and destroy their unity; O Allah afflict them with loss of their dear ones as they have afflicted us with the loss of our dear ones;
O Allah we seek refuge in You from their evilness and we place You at their throats; O Allah make their plotting their destruction; O Allah suffice for us against them with whatever You wish; O Allah destroy them for they cannot escape you; O Allah count them, kill them, and leave not even one of them;
O Allah our Lord, give us in this world goodness and in the last goodness, and protect us from the fire; O Allah send prayers and peace on our Prophet Muhammad and all his family and companions.
Sheikh Osama bin Laden
Ramadan 1428
September 2007
Now, my basic point here is that Muslims need to kick this creep’s ass for using Islam like this.
And it is NOT Islam bashing to say so.
Danial …
Nobody here has died and made you God such that if you post a link we must all rush and read everything you suggest. Considering the source, and given your foul mouth and misogyny, I would be disinclined to do so on principle.
Oh really? So the efforts by Pakistani Muslim human rights lawyers Asma Jehangir and Hina Jillani mean little now, despite their track record of defending Hindus and Christians in courts?
When’s the last time any American gave a shit about what was going on in Rwanda? Where was the mass outrage by the white trash militia freaks over the Oklahoma City bombing?
Yeah that is why the U.S. supported the likes of General Zia-ul-Haq, General Papapadopolous, Suharto, Ferdinand Marcos, Bashir Gemayel, House of Saud, Hosni Mubarak, Ngo Dihn Diem, Augusto Pinochet, Manuel Noriega, General Yahya Khan, and Manuen Noriega?
Funny you don’t bother to bring up the number of dictators that the U.S. government backed since World War 2? Do you know what President Lyndon B Johnson said to a Greek ambassador in 1964? Something along the lines of “Fuck your constitution and your Parliament” should ring a bell to you. Or how about overthrowing democratically-elected leaders in Iran and Chile?
You’re just as big of a hypocrite as you accuse Muslims of being.
No sweetheart, it’s PMS to suggest that we should protest over a crime that we had nothing to do with. Why should I, or any other American Muslim, apologize for what goes on in other Muslim countries? You think we’re all guilty by association, as if we all are collectively to blame for the acts of a few lunatics. It’s the same logic faggot Assyrian douchebags and Moronite dipshits engage in by blaming all 1.5 billion Muslims for the acts of a few.
Should I start blaming ALL Anglo-Saxons for ruining my country after colonizing it for so many years?
And for your information, American Muslims have been doing just that, and have been doing it since 9/11. Perhaps if you took the time to do a simple Google search that says “Muslims condemn terrorism”, then you might get yourself something.
But you prefer to stay as a one-trick pony.
And I will find numerous comments on sites such as LittleGreenFootballs and FreeRepublic endorsing his views and his call to nuke Mecca. You assume that extremism is only limited amongst Muslims, which I assure you it is not.
I appreciate that, and that is a change since many Christians believe that extremism is not rife within their own communities.
By the way, if you assume that I am just another hypocritical Muslim who shouts bloody murder when non-Muslims murder Muslims yet say nothing when Muslims murder other Muslims, you are gravely mistaken. Here is a post I made on the MEYouth forum regarding just that, criticizing the victimization mentality of many Muslims.
Cannot disagree there.
So you think burning effigies will suddenly make al-Qaeda and the rest of the Islamists think twice? Give me a break! al-Qaeda have been killing Sunni tribal sheikhs that recently turned against those bloodthirsty animals!
I assure you, many Muslims have been making the choice to stand up to the radicals.
11/9/05 – After Zarqawi bombed the hotels in Amman, hundreds of thousands of Jordanians poured out in the streets of Amman and cursed Zarqawi, calling him to go to Hell.
Last month – After a terrorist bombing in Algiers, thousands of Algerians rallied against the extremists in that city (BBC NewS)
April 07 – Tens of thousands of Pakistanis came out in the streets in Karachi, denouncing the Lal Masjid fanatics and expressing their opposition to a “Kalashnikov Islam”.
Which is what I’ve been fucking doing way before 9/11.
Indeed I am.
Feminists, always blaming us men for your own misgivings. Spare us the tripe.
Mentioned it above.
Yeah, quite ironic coming from someone who forgets about what happened to Matthew Shepard 9 years ago, who was beaten and tied up to a fence in Wyoming and left to die by white youth.
And lookie here, fundamentalist Christians from the Soviet Union threaten Western states in the U.S.:
Give me a break, I’ve heard vile shit in many of my classes and nothing happened to them.
Now I wonder what do you say about the white trash rednecks who beat up Middle Eastern and Eastern European folks in Cronulla Beach 2 years ago? Do you support that? I’ve met my fair share of Aussies who supported the actions of the white trash bogans beating Lebanese people. Must be the convict in them, after all Australians are nothing but a bunch of cultureless descendents of exiled British convicts who should have been executed in the first place, but that’s for another discussion.
I’m sure the Muslim world wonders the same thing about the tolerance of evangelical crackheads and wannabe warhawks who talk about nuking the entire Middle East.
Given your inexcessant whining and your tendency to make hyperbolic statements, perhaps you would have been eager to go to the links I gave you.
That’s too bad, since you’re only interested in hearing what you want to hear.
You’re missing out on Ali Eteraz’s writings, which have been featured on the Huffington Post and The Guardian’s CommentIsFree. It would help you if you got to familiarize yourself with his writings.
You must be a fool to believe most Muslims support the Lal Masjid fanatics. A lot of Pakistanis supported the government action against those vigilante hoodlums. Too bad it took the hostage-taking of foreign nationals to get the government action against them, since they view foreigners more worthy of protection than their own people.
danial all you’ve posted is fairly unintellectual example arguing. obviously you’ve been fed all sorts of hate towards all that is unislamic, so at convenient times like this you can “defend” the vile bigoted nature of sharia law by attacking whoever it is you think is questioning it.
in this case I’m american, so you attack america and/or christianity. if I had been hindu some slander against hindu’s would come, and if I had been buddhist you’d reach into your bag to attack buddhism. I see it all the time, islam is about attack.
I would say, as I pointed out above, islam does not have the patent on bigoted behavior. its just winning the race right now. as any sane look at the world situation would tell you.
and why not talk about the dictators we backed IN world war 2, we gave technology, supplies, arms, intelligence, and training expertise to STALIN. one of the worst mass murderers of all time! america is evil! we helped stalin!
of course even after america helped stalin that doesn’t change the bigoted nature of sharia law, now does it? no the fundamental bigotry of sharia is harder to run away from then just slandering your opponent.
bob, more inexcessant LGF-like ramblings. Come up with legitimate arguments. You can’t handle the fact that America supported and facilitated the overthrow of democratically-elected governments.
Failure to admit that makes you a HYPOCRITE. Inability to refute my claim means that you got yourself cornered.
And I’m American too, you retard. Dissent is the cornerstone of a functioning democracy. Sorry, but it isn’t democracy when it is on your terms. It’s all or none.
Dipshit.
BTW, Why don’t you go to India and see what Hindu fundamentalists do to Christians there? Just recently in June of this year, an Indian pastor was beaten and stripped naked by a Hindu mob, and paraded in the streets of Bangalore because he was Christian. That’s just the tip of the iceberg, my friend.
why am I cornered or a hypocrit? does america need to be a saint for sharia to be bigoted? or islam to be the #1 destroyer of human rights? I doubt it.
this just proves my point, you are all attack. I’m not going to fall for it. I’m not going to let you attacking america throw me off. I know where my morality lies and it is against the horrible, oppressive, mysoginist and bigoted sharia laws. thats not LGF, LGF is a conservative site, Im a liberal. you know liberals right? pro gay marriage, pro free speech, all that stuff?
Meredith, you really need to get out of the house a lot more. My questions and recommendations were for EVERYBODY. Nobody elected you as the spokesperson for EVERYBODY. I’m bashing you? I merely responded in defense of my own, for you attacked me, for you labeled me as some kind of male chauvanist. You want respect and an audience who would be willing to listen to what you have to say? The read the damn post in its entirety and understand the meaning implied before you go poking someone and then trying to overpower them with incessant writing followed by wrapping up your posts with sweet words.
The Islam I seek is the truth, and any help I could have received or any enlightenment you could have imparted has basically been flushed in the toilet. Why? Because you are judgemental and you do not read things clearly before you respond.
Let’s put in an extra effort not to turn this thread into a bloodbath, please.
The bottom line here, folks, is if Muslims don’t get about the process of forcing radicals out, it won’t be done by anybody, because nobody else CAN do it. Apparently some of you can’t deal with even hearing that, so after some good conversation the entire thread devolves into BULLYING AD HOMINEM ATTACKS. And that is why Islam is going to be destroyed — not from without as the contemporary fantasy goes, but from within.
I’ve spent the last six years trying to build bridges between religions and cultures. Congratulations, you’ve convinced me it’s futile. Find somebody else.
Esra’a
I’ve just unsubscribed from this forum and all notifications, but I wanted to thank you for the conversation. But, as usual, the rest of you don’t call the thugs down, so the thugs always win. A microcosmic example of the larger problem.
The rise of ex-Muslim organisations is interesting given than conversion from Islam is punishable by death in some countries.
Apostates of the world, unite!
The rise of ex-Muslim organizations doesn’t change the fact that it’s still one of the fastest growing religions in the world, with millions of converts worldwide.
Islam has survived all this time and won’t be destroyed by a man or a group of them. Eventually, the people will have enough and the tables will turn. I’m tired of people who have something to say about someone elses religion and what’s wrong with it and then telling that group how to fix it. It’s funny how those who seem to have the “right way” aren’t even here, and they are as it was already said- pontificating from a distance. It’s also a shame when someone spends so much time and energy to study something and then does not invest in listening skills and reading carefully before responding and then doing the most stupidest thing of stereotyping someone and assuming he or she is this or that or whatever. A thug? Hell… I spent more time hunting down terrorists and thugs who profess what they do is for the good of Islam, and I’m Muslim. I wasn’t when I was doing it, but just the same, I am now Muslim. Anyway, you did incite some feverish reaction Esra’a, but do not fear, for we will eventually root out the bad in Islam. Every religion has had its ups and downs. We saw that with the RCC and they are still around and we don’t have anymore Inquisitions, do we? I cannot explain it, but at some point in time, the divine intervenes and the tables turn. Have faith in Allah, the true message of the Quran and in yourself and in the good acts of others.
Bottom line is that YOU cannot stand hearing the fact that Muslims have been doing the same thing you are complaining about.
Again, it’s a shame when someone spends so much time and energy studying something and then, I should add, thinks they are the savior of someone or a group of people and cannot bear being questioned and takes things way tooooooooooo personally and then accuses someone of “bashing” them and their efforts and tries to drown out the voices of others. There’s no place in any forum or any group for such a person, regardless of how enlightened and intelligent he or she is. I hope she can figure it out and come back and dialogue fairly.
Congratulations, Danial, you successfully subverted the purpose of this website “dedicated to eliminate extremist ideologies and ignorance from the Middle East.”
Whenever there is a discussion of “extremist ideologies and ignorance from the Middle East” it is quickly cut off by those screaming about everyone else’s problems. How many threads have there been that started as a discussion of Islam or the ME and ended as just another list of Western/Christian crimes?
Well, here’s one more. ‘Bye.
May I suggest we close the thread as it is becoming counter-productive to what MEY is trying to do.
yup danial, the islamist thug has just nosedived the entire discussion. which is exactly how muslims react to any criticism. they can’t hear that their sharia is anti-thetical to human rights. but because they can’t intellectually deal w/ that information they go on the attack, they have been taught always to attack. this works fine in your echo chambers where you can outnumber all sane and rational opinion. but in real life its not so easy to jump around the fact that stares people in the face.
sharia is awful horrible, and bigoted.
I think we shouldn’t close threads here, rather just put our comment policy to use by taking action against the relevant abuses.
and btw about the talk of being famous. Islam makes the anti-islamists famous. who was ayaan hirsi ali to anyone outside the netherlands before islam murdered theo van gogh and stabbed into his chest a death threat against ali? who was the danish mohammed cartoon producer before muslims shot a nun dead and burned dozens of churches in reprisal?
if you call islam violent and nothing happens, you are just one person. if you call islam violent and get shot by a muslim. that is another thing entirely.
Really, care to show any figures for that?
I think it’s sad how the FASCIST mods on this blog suppress/delete unpublished posts. I had one deleted yesterday responding to a comment that was not in any way hostile to Islam. “Muslims who aren’t afraid of criticism”*
*not really.
Yeah:
There’s a lot more where that came from here.
And according to this site, we make up about 1.5 billion of the world’s overall population.
Here’s a list of notable converts.
A PBS special on Muslims and Muslim converts in the USA.
JPost: Islam converts change face of Europe
European converts to Islam
According to NBC News, as much as 20,000 Americans convert to Islam annually.
Here’s a video about Australian converts to Islam.
When it comes to converts (for any religion, not just Islam) the list and stories are endless. But these figures just go to show that our religion is not going anywhere, no matter how much some people want it to.
Well, I would also think that another aspect for the high growth rate would be the reproduction rate of some Muslim groups and countries that tend to come more often then not from poorer regions in the world. Having more than four kids is certainly not strange in some parts of the world, as well as a places practicing multiple wives like in a few places in Africa or with some Bedouins, well, that would certainly create a rather large family tree and population increase.
The moderation que is empty; so if your post is not here then it probably got hooked in the spam files. We have ours set on ultra-high, sometimes legitimate comments get crammed in there.
So really, if you don’t have a blog and don’t understand the technical issues that come with handling one, you need to stop complaining about fascism and start asking the moderators where your comments are like a real grown up would. We get ridiculous comments that never go moderated here including all forms of criticism, so don’t even.
To my brothers and sisters in Islam:
Assalamualaikum. In all our discussions let as not forget the words of the glorious Quran:
An-Nahl (The Bee)
16:125 CALL THOU (all mankind] unto thy Sustainer’s path with wisdom and goodly EXHORTATION, and argue with them in the most kindly manner- [149] for, behold, thy Sustainer knows best as to who strays from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided.
waasalaam
Perhaps so, but even then, the fertility rates of many Muslim countries are in the decreasing trend. Iran, for example, has a population growth rate comparable to Western Europe!
lol I’m now an Islamist thug? Is it because I’m calling you out on your idiocy? I’m far from an Islamist, my blog is living proof of it.
Always to attack? I can say that liberal crackheads such as yourself are always taught to play the victim whenever you are cornered like the spineless little girl that you are.
The same can be said about European colonialism and post-war US foreign policy, which has done more to quash human rights than Islam has.
I’ll add Japan in on this. Of the Muslim population in Japan, the number is roughly 70,000 with 90% consisting of Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Turkish and others while 10% is ethnic Japanese. Compared to the rest of the Japanese population, this is hardly a dent, but Islam does exist. Islam has been known since the earlier times when trade with the west in the port of Nagasaki with visiting traders from Malaysia, India and other countries of the Middle East, but it did not make any headway until the early 20th century when the Japanese government was collecting information on Islam and Muslim life. The first mosque in Japan was built in Tokyo in 1938 and still exists today and is the epicenter of Muslim affairs in Japan. Most Japanese profess either Buddhism or Shintoism, but this is mostly in name only. Most Japanese live a faithless lifestyle, even with all of the technological advances. The few Japanese who have converted in recent times do so because they question why the world is the way it is and that there must be more to life than birth, school work and death. If you are interested, there are some personal stories here
If you’re unable to admit and acknowledge your own faults, then you are in no position to bring up the faults of others.
To reiterate what I stated earlier, keep a leash on your own animals before commenting on others.
As far a birth rates in Muslim countries increasing the number of Muslims, that is a stupid assumption. I know all kinds of people here in Bahrain and in other countries who were born of Muslim parents but are not practicing Islam or even giving it or any other religion any mind. The same can be said of some of my friends born into Jewish, Christian and other faith households.
Danial, don’t you have a 240SX to work on? You are falling behind, broham.
I saw a fascinating special in Tokyo on Japanese Muslims, including an interview with an Arab imam of a popular mosque who speaks fluent Japanese. I took a video of some parts, it’s just really awesome stuff. I’ll share it here soon.
My issue with Japanese Muslims, like with other converts, is that they often discard their ethnic and cultural identity in order to be more Arab. Instead of being proud of their identity, they [converts in general] believe that in order to be a better Muslim, one must has to emulate everything a Gulf Arab does.
Take a look at Chinese Muslims in Hunan, they managed to integrate and stay true to their Chinese identity, despite being Muslims. Centuries of their adherance to Islam had managed to combine Chinese cultural traits and Islam very well. This is evident in the architectural style of Chinese mosques, that are built with Chinese traits in mind.
danial, again you attack. thats why I called you a thug. that is your response to criticism. but like I said, and I will repeat for your pleasure. sharia law is HORRIBLE, BIGOTED, VIOLENT, OPPRESSIVE AND MYSOGINIST and nothing you say about me will ever change that. that sharia law is the #1 obstacle to human rights wont’ change no matter how “exposed” you think your meandering unintelligent attacks make me.
if you believe in human rights, sharia law is the enemy of all that is good in the world.
Bob, I’m sure you prefer to live under the Ten Commandments in Uganda under the rule of the Lord’s Resistance Army, wouldn’t you?
Yeah sure it’s an enemy, if you believe the rule of the Taliban was Sharia, even though it was far from it.
Perhaps you should do some research on how Sharia was applied historically before coming up with lame assumptions. Typical libtard.
BTW, I’m definitely far from an Islamist. I’m a staunch supporter of secular democracy in Muslim countries, as well as seperation of mosque and state.
Danial, bro… I’m half Japanese and I am Muslim. Do I look like I shed my heritage and my culture or that I am about to? You’ve seen my MySpace. The answer is Nope! I will take what I feel is the best and discard the rest. As for the rest of the Japanese brothers and sisters and your comment that they throw away their ethnic and cultural identity, where’s your proof? In what way did they throw it away? Granted, Japanese do like to emulate and mimic, but if you ask them what they are, they will tell you they are Japanese. Islam does not take away a person’s identity. If you are going to say that it does, then you may as well say the same for Malay, Filipino, Thai, Indo Muslims as well. The Chinese have been Chinese longer than any civilization on this planet and everything they do is Chinese. Back to Japan, as I said 90% of the Muslim in Japan are not Japanese, while 10% are. These 10 percent are mainly Japanese women who have converted after marriage to a foreigner who happens to also be Muslim, and the history of Islam in Japan is very new. If we can jump ahead 600 years, we may see Japanese architectural styles in mosques in Japan.
That sounds cool, Esra’a! When was the last time you were in Japan? I have not been back since last year. Gotta get back home soon because I am starting to miss speaking Japanese. Oh! There is one family in Manama now- the husband is Japanese and the wife is Egyptian. One of the sisters at Al Fateh Mosque told me about them.
Dawoud, I didn’t have you in mind, and I should have said some do. It’s just a trend I have noticed with Muslim converts in general who feel the need to discard their identity thinking it will make them more Muslim. I’ve seen this first-hand with white and Latino converts in America. Many of them become so obsessed with the faith that they end up becoming more, excuse my use of this term, fanatical in the process.
For one, like other converts, they would disown their own culture as kufr and un-Islamic. Since I am Pakistani, I’ve witnessed this with the rise of Salafism amongst some who feel that many aspects of our culture is un-Islamic, such as qawallis and Sufi shrines. Nevermind that Sufi missionaries were the main forces responsible for spreading Islam peacefully in the Indian subcontinent. Sufi poets are living proof of this, such as Bulleh Shah and Shah Latif.
Second, I feel that many are quick to adopt Arabic names and discard their native names in order to be more Muslim. Now I feel nothing wrong with this, but I think that they should stick with their Japanese names so they can show that Islam isn’t an Arab religion. If it were names that have a religious connotation, then yes I could understand that, but I highly doubt many Japanese names would be in direct conflict with Islam.
As mentioned earlier, they throw it away by condemning many aspects of their culture as kufr, and I think that’s not right. I agree with you that Islam doesn’t take away a person’s identity, but to many converts, they feel that should have to, but I disagree with that sentiment.
Well with Muslims from the Southeast Asian countries, Islam penetrated into those countries for centuries which allowed a distinct and unique form of the faith to take hold. Islam practiced in Mindanao and Sumatra is vastly different than it is practiced in the Middle East, that’s for sure.
I do not disagree with what you mentioned above.
Yes the Turkish Sultan welcomed some (2 million!?) Spanish Jews to Salonika (where these Sephardic Jews replaced a previous group of Jews who had some time earlier been massacred or forced to leave by an earlier Sultan). But within twenty years this very same new “tolerant” Sultan was putting the screws to those very same Spanish Jews.
BTW: and guess where Jews went when they were persecuted by Muslims. That’s right! They were protected by the evil old Christians. For instance there was a notable net immigration of Jews out of the Muslim world into the Crusader states.
Gotta love historical revisionism like the one above.
Here is a thought how’s about the Muslims actually do something to improve the imgae of islam instead of blaming others, wanting others to do something, and just talking about doing something but nothing else? Yeah like that’s going to happen anytime soon
Here you go.
With all this talk about conversions I thought I might just throw this in…with some commentary…
It is so annoying when journalists get it all wrong. First of all its not “Bahaist” or “Bahaism”. The Baha’i Faith does not have a leader, we have democratic institutions as guidance, elected from among the Baha’is to serve one year terms. Second of all, secrecy has nothing to do with it. Our obligatory prayers are to be performed alone, yes. But that is as closed as it gets.
If we would all stop pointing the finger and criticizing the other side, we could seriously get some work done.
Ya Ilahi…(sigh)
Danial, thanks for sharing Umar Lee’s stuff with us. That video of the sister standing up to the thug in the hoodie is inspiring!
Good response.
Oh, the irony…
antiwahhabi.blogspot.com
Don’t those two things cancel each other out? Is it ironic or oxymoronic? Lol!
I have read about sharia historically as well as currently. it is vile bigoted and horrible. anyone who supports sharia is a hatemongering bigot in regards to human rights. and all the ppl like you can do against that is attack other things. attack, attack, attack.
all your attacking wont make sharia one ounce better, and you will have to face that reality someday.
Meredith wrote, “Look, this is a very sad thing. The first thing most Westerners ever knew about Islam was a terrorist attack. Started in the mid-70s and got worse for the next 30 year.”
You have a lot to learn. That matter of fact is the United States and its allies are responsible for more deaths of Muslims and destruction of infrastructure in Muslim countries than the other way around.
The United States and Western countries have had a long relationship with Muslim extremists, but you have chosen to remain ignorant about it. Read about it here http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=9615
It could be that Meredith did indeed know that but simply didn’t mention it since she was trying to talk about Islam rather than the United States (this being mideastyouth.com rather than middleamercia.com, after all).
Meredith,
You have a lot of suggestions for Muslims, but I’d like to hear you plans of how you will be stopping Western governments, who while preaching human rights and democracy, go around engaing in regime change and supporting brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding. This is not only happens in the Middle East, but also in Africa, Asia and South America as well. If you are not aware of this, here is an introductory lesson by journalist John Pilger in this two part vidoe.
http://gettingtruth.blogspot.com/2007/07/here-is-two-part-lecture-form-john.html
Never said I was perfect, was I?
Contrast that to Rush Limbaugh who believes he’s the perfect embodiment of humanity, despite popping a few pills, getting into a divorce, and calling soldiers who disagree with the war as “phony”.
Name the books that you have read about Sharia that was not written by polemics such as Bat Ye’or, Robert Spencer, Mark Steyn, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Come on, what do you have to lose?
You’re judging Sharia based on the gross interpretation of the Taliban and Saudi Arabia. Sorry but that’s not Sharia but backward village Pashtunwali culture of the Taliban and backward Bedouin customs of Saudi Arabia.
RandallJones, Meredith just likes to whine for the sake of whining. She expects us to condemn every single bad thing Muslims do yet others aren’t adhered to the same standard.
MyTwoCents,
The United States is occupying two Muslim countries. It has declared a war on terror after 9/11 which is affecting the foreign policy as well as national pollicy of many countries in the First to Thirld worlds. People in the media are constatly asking where are the Muslim moderates to condemn terrorism, but at the same time they refuse to interview Muslim moderates and instead fill the media with the message of the extremists.
Meredith,
Are you aware of the growing grass roots movemnet (many are non-Muslims) that is questioning the official explanation of 9/11? Here is one of many websites that are doing this http://www.911truth.org/
Meredith wrote, “I have made it enormously clear that I greatly admire Islam and greatly support Muslims. If you knew how much time I spent defending Islam and Muslims you’d be shocked.”
You don’t need to defend Muslims and Islam, you need to educate yourself and fellow Westerners about the wrongs your fellow citizens have done in many developing countries. You can start by look at the links I have provided.
I think she’s gone, Randal. Poor woman: missed her chance to learn how 9-11 was the work of the secret BushCo/Zionist conspiracy…
Will there be any more discussion of Islam on this thread, or are we through with that?
Quote: Ayaan Hirsi Ali wouldn’t be where she is today if it wasn’t for the fact that her target is the Islamic faith …..
No, no, no. Ayaan Hirsi Hirsi Ali wouldn’t be where she is today if it weren’t for the hate and threats of violence against her by Muslims. As usual, Muslims blame everybody but Islam and themselves for their problems.
It is always so touching when Muslims condemn “corrupt leadership, military rule, extreme censorship, gender inequality and other politically motivated… ” It is even more pathetic when Muslims condemn America and the west for supporting corrupt leader and invading other countries.
Read the ahadith. Read Tabari, Hisham and Kathir.. Read your own traditions and the early biographies of your dear prophet. If you want corruption, military rule, censhorship, agression, gender inequality, your will find it in Islam’s own scriptures.
It is one, long brutal story of raids, battles, wars, attacks without warning, plunder, enslavement, killing, greed and ambition. It is a story of hate and violence against non-Muslims. It is a story of fights and killings among different factions of Islam.
Nothing has changed. Islam cannot, will not live in peace with others. It must subdue or fight to subdue.
There are no Muslims that can accept criticism of Islam, or at least none that I have met. That is why there is no freedom in Islamic societies. If people were given the freedom to discuss, to think and to choose, there would be no Islam.
Please tell me how anyone can say or write PBUH after the name of a man that did so many vile things Mohammad did? When will Muslims stop making excuses for the hate and violence in the Quran and hadith? When will Muslim apply the same standards to themselves that they expect of others? When will Islamic societies stop oppressing other religions and women? When will Muslims start using simple logic to examine the tenents of Islam?
Let me give you one example. The Qur’an says “there shall be compulsion in religion” (surah 2.259) but the hadiths say that Islam’s prophet ordered the killing of apostates (3 places, at least). So, wouldn’t that mean Mohammad is a murderer? You can’t have it both ways. Please do not start the “that was then” explanation or “it was really treason against the state”
excuses. It was murder. Or why don’t Muslims wonder about all those exceptions granted to Mohammad by Allah — as declared by Mohammad. Isn’t that suspicious? Did not Aisha herself sarcastically comment to her husband that “Thy lord (Allah) makes haste to do thy bidding”. Can’t Muslims figure it out?
And all those passages in the Quran about obeying “Allah and his prophet”, about praising “allah and his prophet” and giving tribute to “Allah and his prophet” and so on. Don’t Muslims have a clue? I doubt that Allah ever showed up to claim his share of the money and power.
Think, people, think.
Kactuz
say y with lamperhaps all
- and the is abrogated according to classical Muslim interpretation. Surah 9.5, according to classical interpretion, abrogates no fewer than 124 peaceful, beautiful, purely spiritual verses of the Qur’an.
It is not a pretty story.
and the Medinan verses, which should be taken in historical context, not used as an excuse for bloodlust and domination.
pathetic when M
Perhaps you folks have read the ahadith…
bullshit.
The point is that it is ALWAYS the case that the worst among us, whatever our religion, are the ones willing to do horrible things that the rest of us could never do.
sharia is also bigoted in iran, malaysia and nigeria just to name a few. that you want to defend the violent, bigoted historical and modern practices of sharia gives me yet again another insight onto how muslims really view the rest of the planet. and thats w/ hate and contempt.
omg randaljones, another truther. who would have thought. you know that truthers are universally ridiculed right? I doubt there is a coincidence that a truther advocate also wants to talk about “the crimes of the west.” its all the same sick mindset.
MyTwoCents,
There are many legitimate unanswered questions of 9/11 you don’t want to deal with. I won’t get into a debate about it here, but lets look at one point which involves a government website.
The FBI’s webpage on Usama ben Laden does not mention 9/11. Why wouldn’t an attack that killed 3000 people be specifically mentioned on his wanted poster? I discuss this here http://gettingtruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/where-was-osama-ben-laden-on-sept-11.html
It includes a video of a news report asking the question why hasn’t the U.S. government indicted Usama ben Laden for 9/11?
J. Kactuz Wrote, “No, no, no. Ayaan Hirsi Hirsi Ali wouldn’t be where she is today if it weren’t for the hate and threats of violence against her by Muslims. As usual, Muslims blame everybody but Islam and themselves for their problems.”
But this doesn’t explain why much of the mainstream media refuses to interview Muslim moderates? The mainstream media ask why aren’t the moderate Muslims condemning terrorism and human rights violations in Muslim countries; there are many who do this, but the media doesn’t want to deal with them and wants to paint Muslims as a one dimensional monolithic block that interpret Islam only one way.
You say Hirsi Alsi is famous because she gets death threats from Muslims. So why aren’t people who get death threats for criticizing Israel, the Iraq war, or the official government explanation of 9/11 getting as much media attention as Ali?
Regarding your commentary on Islam, how come you and other Westerners are not as knowledgeable about the violent and vile parts of the Bible (Old and New Testaments). See here for some examples http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac12.htm#links
Yes, I know, Randal: you’ve posted that exact same thing — word for word, I think — several times.
The subject was bashing Islam. For whatever they’re worth, I was giving my thoughts on one of the causes of the hostility: the perception Americans have of moderate Islam. It’s not good. We can waste time complaining about media coverage but it’s just a waste of time. If your current activities aren’t getting enough attention then do it louder and bigger (a lesson from the protests of the 70’s).
Imagine the world’s (especially America’s) reaction to something like this: Well organized, absolutely peaceful rallies in several cities across Egypt where they burn copies of “The Protocols of Zion” and ask the government to ban the book and all video versions. I don’t think it would be very dangerous, but tell me if I’m wrong.
Blog the rallies everywhere, upload vids to youtube, film them and send copies to all the media you can find whether they use it or not. Keep shouting louder until you are heard.
Is there any merit in this idea?
Can’t you find a Christian site to discuss that on?
MyTwoCents Wrote, “We can waste time complaining about media coverage but it’s just a waste of time.”
But media coverage is an important aspect of a well run democracy. WE need the media to help us make decisions about out government.
MyTwoCents Wrote, “Imagine the world’s (especially America’s) reaction to something like this: Well organized, absolutely peaceful rallies in several cities across Egypt where they burn copies of “The Protocols of Zion” and ask the government to ban the book and all video versions. I don’t think it would be very dangerous, but tell me if I’m wrong.”
Imagine the world’s reactions (especially the Muslim World) if there were rallies in several cities across the United States, where they burn the “9/11 Commision Report” and demand an open and thorough investigation of 9/11?
More money was spent investigating Bill Clinton than 9/11.
Oh man, this thread got boring pretty fast.
Yeah, reading the same damn thing for the 20th time bores me, too.
Rallies burning the 9/11 Commision Report: That’s a great idea, Randal. Are you volunteering to organize it?
This thread in a nutshell:
Esra’a: Only way to get famous is by insulting our religion
Murad: Moderate Islam has been raped
Meredith: Do something about it
Esra’a: We are
Meredith: I’m American
Esra’a: Alright
Meredith: Stop whining
Esra’a: omg
Meredith: I have examples
Bob: Islam sucks and so does your Sharia, mmk?
Danial: Yeah right
Dawoud: How many of you actually understand Sharia Law?
Bob: I hate it HATE IT HATE IT
Murad: WTF?
Esra’a: You don’t know what you’re talking about, Bob!
Bob: Oh ya well at least I don’t stone gays!
Esra’a: hey shut up we don’t even do that
Meredith: Bob doesn’t represent me, NO WAY! Islam is ok but rich Muslim Americans suck
Danial: Ali Eteraz
Randall: What about the West and Christianity? 9/11, anyone?
Bob: I hate Sharia I HATE IT HATE IT
J. Kactuz: Sigh, me too! Stupid Muslims whining all the time
Randall: 9/11 check it out
Bob: HATE IT
Esra’a: This thread got boring real fast
MyTwoCents: Stop talking Randal
Isn’t it kinda funny that the majority of the people who are on here are not even from here or live here? “Here” is the Middle East. Islam is worldwide. Sometimes it gets hard to separate the two, doesn’t it? I am starting to think that individual opinions on Islam depends on where the individual currently lives. The further away from Mecca one gets, the louder the criticism seems to be. I share what is written by most on this forum with my local friends whose faith runs stone cold to red hot, and it the overall resounding question is- do any of these people even know anything about normal life of everyday people here? People in the ME don’t really pay attention to what the west or Muslim in the west have to say, for the overall opinion is that the majority in the west only pick on the things that make news, which is usually bad news that is over-dramaticized and don’t really care about normal life here. Normal life is getting up, going to school or work or both, texting friends, meeting friends for a meal or coffee, how to make a little extra money to take their family on vacation, can I afford that loan, avoiding getting hit by another car because of lousy drivers, going to see grandmother/grandfather on Juman after the noon prayer, etc. Here in the ME, bashing Islam will only get you a fat lip and maybe a fatwah if you are really arrogant, and Christians and Jews here won’t come to your rescue, not out of fear, but they will look at you as another outsider troublemaker and everybody will dogpile you. We don’t go around bashing Christians and Jews and definitely not Hindu or Buddhism. Everything and everybody has their place. If not, this whole place would be anarchy and Islam would have never survived, nor would have Chritianity and Judaism. It’s basically, believe how you want, recognize that Islam is the national religion by majority and follow the laws of the nation. If you don’t like it, nobody is holding a gun to your head to be here, and yeah, I mixed Islam with the ME because as I said it is sometimes really hard to separate the two.
Whenever I or anyone else writes an entry like this we are often flooded by people who aren’t from here and aren’t familiar at all with us as people, our culture and history, our faith and how we practice it.
That is why I and many others don’t even bother responding to such uninformed (and sometimes abusive) comments. I guess I’m just waiting for those who are actually relevant to react.
Dawood, even a Muslim like me will tell you “Mr. I’m learning real Islam in the “real so called Muslim world” that Islam survived because:
A. Muslim OCCUPIED by ATTACKING and CONQUERING other lands, including most of the Middle East and Turkey, and let’s not forget Spain. YES by the sword, and Muslims tell the stories of victory over the infidels. The reason? “WE MUST GO AND SPREAD ISLAM”.
B. Non Muslims had/have no rights in the Muslim world. They had to pay taxes (Jezya) more than others, they had to wear different colors and they could not build new places of worship. There are no CHURCHES that were built in Spain at the times of Muslims. Therefore, people were FORCED to convert so they can survive.
Ayman Elzawahri, Bin Laden’s buddy said that “we will not stop untill we retrieve all the Muslim land, not just Palestine, but Spain” Excuse me, Spain? even Palestine was a conquered land by Muslims but Spain? Give me a break, where were Isra’a, You, Danial and others saying hey, back out…. In fact, Most Muslims think of Spain as Occupied Muslim land yet they talk about others, What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Mongols kidnapped children and put them in Gov, and eventually became the white Turks that we know today. Let’s not forget another reason for the survival of Islam, MURDER, government sanctioned MURDER of converts. When people went to help the Tsnami victims, they were kicked out because the virus of stupidity that ate at the brains of these people dictated to them that they are here to convert us. Israel was the first on the scene with kitchens, portable kitchens, food, and people to help and Jews do not believe in converting at all, yet, they were sent back. There are medications for this condition called weirdo paranoia. They prefer to see their own die rather than rethink their stupid mad man made ideology.
While you are talking about the west and the HATE, check out how many websites here are about DAWA, radio commercials saying, Islam is the religion of peace, on major highways you’ll see huge billboards advocating Islam. Can you, Mr. “I traveled and now I see the fairness in Islam” say that this would even be fathomed in any Islamic country? Christians and Jews alike chritisize their governments and people. Israeli scholars spoke against Israel’s actions and guess what, they live there and have good jobs, ALIVE AND WELL! One guy has a stupid Mecca remark and everyone sticks to it, how about the many others who voted to make Ramadan an official month in the US because they respect Islam and Muslims? Typical “negativity” the Muslims employ along voluntary amnesia.
Maybe you should look deeper into this Islam you speak of all of you; this man made strange cult that says if you do not cover your mouth when you yawn, satan will pee in your mouth. Look for the real Islam, the one that advocates peace and forgiveness and the one that makes sense. So far, all I’ve seen is competition in who is the worse one. I have news for you THE CRUSADERS ARE DEAD, IT IS OVER FOR A LONG TIME and one point, MULIMS ARE AND WERE CRUSADERS ATTACKING OTHERS UNDER THE FALSE CLAIM OF RELIGION.
Christians including the Pope, condemned the crusaders and Jews condemn the actions of their people but the tribes of Arabia and their spread mentality the one that really tainted Islam and ruined it, would defend their own, and as with all the Muslims here, when they have nothing to say, they come up with a counter attack, a lame one too, and as an Arab I can tell you that it means that they KNOW that what was said is the truth but they are too defensive and proud to admit it.
Wake up, look in a mirror, take responsibility for your own befor you dare stone others. YES, the house of Muslims is made of very weak glass.
I concur with you. I am sure that people would say to me that I have no idea what I am talking about, since I emigrated here and I am still finding out more and more of the rich and colorful history, cultures, the different peoples and their heritage and all of the good and bad and in between things that come with everyday life here in Bahrain interlaced with my faith as a Muslim. I had a conversation with a friend of mine over at Gulf Air a few days ago regarding all of the outside comments and opinions of Islam and the ME and the ME brand of Islam in addition to the stereotypes concocted by the west. I am starting to see the things from the perspective of a local and a Muslim man. It’s not that I was ignorant of things, but now that my life is 24-7 Bahrain and local life, I understand a lot of issues more clearly. The point of view of many in the ME is that all that is happening now will pass and that the memory of ME people goes back very very far and nothing is ever forgotten. People talk of Salahuddin and the Crusaders like it was yesterday, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Isa (PBUH), how Islam was used in good ways and bad ways, the same characteristics of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the way of the bedouin, the thousands of years of unrest in Saudia down south towards Yemen, the Levant peoples and so much more. I could have never received this had I decided to pursue life further in the west, and I proved something by doing what I did… one can never truly understand people, culture and their history unless one actually lives and becomes one with them and does things in the ways and fashion of local peoples.
I don’t think you know a single thing about the Muslims here to stereotype us like this in true hypocritical fashion.
We have defended religious minorities (especially Baha’is), condemned religious extremism, defended the freedom of speech of ex-Muslims serving prison time, stood up against religiously motivated crimes within our communities and many of us are risking our lives doing this.
Spare us the lecture. Let’s see what you are doing that amounts to the efforts of many Muslims here.
What have we been too proud in admitting? Does it bother you that some of us feel the need to stand up for our faith when it’s being attacked ruthlessly and by people who are uninformed? Can you show me where any of us have EVER denied a crime that took place in our communities?
Because you were being Ghandi and preventing this from happening, right?
So let me ask you a few questions: where were you when Kareem Amer was arrested for expressing “un-Islamic” views on a blog? Where were you when homosexuals and raped women were being executed in Iran? Where were you when Baha’is are being denied higher education in Iran and denied ID cards in Egypt? Where is your interfaith spirit when Arab Jews are discriminated against? Where were you to defend Kurdish minorities who have no rights whatsoever in several Muslims countries? Where were you to speak out against honor crimes taking place within Muslim societies?
The fact is, I don’t see you actively campaigning as much as you love to lecture us on what we’re doing wrong and what you’re doing right. Don’t ask us where we are – for once maybe you should be the one standing up instead of waiting for others to. We are not superheroes. We are doing more than we can handle and that’s probably more than you can say.
We are doing what we can – and we are doing much more than many others are wiling to do. I am not interested in your uninformed criticism if you are doing none of these things yourself. You’ll prove yourself much more credible if you actually show us what you’re campaigning for – how many campaigns do you run as a Muslim, against crimes taking place in our own communities and in our name?
I don’t see how you personally could serve as an example to follow. Maybe if you enlighten us about your own activism, you’ll have a point, but until then… really, just spare us.
This is the strongest point made yet. It really does nothing to blanket categorize Muslims. This group of people was here doing this way before I got here and there can be no doubt that they are taking huge risks by doing so.
It really is shallow for people to come here and bag on Islam while, right here in this very forum there are people doing very noble things for others who they may not necessarily agree with religiously or politically, but they do it because of their humanity, virtue, and what they consider to be in accordance with true Islam.
It is this very humane and caring sense of urgency that lacks in all the detractors that come here and start to whine about one reason or another about Islam, Sharia, the Quran or whatever…
For those of you who don’t have anything nice to say, especially about Mideastyouth.com, bugger off. We know we are doing good things. Your opinions are yours to make but frankly, get a life.
Salma, go get a life. You are the type of person that I am talking about. You pick out things I write and then you twist it and make it sound like I am attacking Islam. I am not. You take my own personal opinion, and it is mine, and contort it. Salma, go to hell. You are just a jealous, envious I don’t know what to call you person. For one thing, you don’t know history, and before you go taking something in history, such as conversions of Christians and Jews, you better quote your sources. White Turks- again, you better quote some sources.
So, go back, reread what I wrote, which are my personal feelings and daily observations here in the country I live. And if you can refute any of it, then do so and stop being an ass-clown.
really dawoud? because I”ve talked about sharia bigotry across the globe. funny how muslims have all these layers of defense mechanisms that prevent them from owning up to the bigotry of sharia.
in the end muslims dont want to face sharia, they want to tell us its not sharia, or its not islams fault, or its not “really” that way. which is just more defensive lies.
and yes dawoud, I agree, criticizing islam is not done in the middle east. islam also hates all freedoms including freedom of speech and religion. thank you for pointing that out. nice to see some honesty about the bigotry.
Name some books you read you LGF fuckhead. I’m waiting for you to cite some sources to back up your claims.
Malaysia isn’t even governed under Sharia you idiot.
You’re not even a liberal, you’re just some LGF/JihadWatch fucktard masquerading as a liberal. You’re unable to criticize US foreign policy for brewing dictatorships, tool.
malaysia has sharia courts. you didn’t know that? you lose. HAHAHHAHA, all this holier than thou attitude and you don’t even know the impact of the bigoted sharia in malaysia.
oh well, it was fun while it lasted eh? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. attack, attack, attack, and the first little defense you make questioning malaysia and you appear to not even know about its sharia courts. its hard not to fall out of my chair laughing, if the bigotry and hatred of sharia wasn’t such a serious matter, that muslims ignore talking about at all costs then it would be truly funny.
You still didn’t prove shit, FOB. The only state that is under Sharia is Kelamantan in Malaysia.
As I said before, name books where you claim your view of Sharia that isn’t written by Bat Ye’or, Bernard Lewis, Robert Spencer, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, David Horowitz, and Nonie Darwish, among others.
Come on little bitch, what do you have to lose? Where do you live you war geek? At least I’m not afraid to confront losers like you in person. I know how tough you little wannabe hawks are in real life, unable to fight in the battlefield thousands of miles away from home.
Loud mouthed coward you are, go back to wacking off to Ann Coulter and Michael Savage, miserable faggot.
Lets tone down the name calling and profanity. Please.
Care to cite any vile and violent passages for me? No?
Anyway, people will all think the way they want and say what they want in the end, so it really doesn’t matter what gets written here, does it? Basically, it’s nothing more than mud-slinging and battle of wits and everybody wants to flex. Name-calling leads to nothing and doesn’t benefit anybody. Omid is right.
As for peoples opinions and how we each live our life and what we believe in, that for each their own and we are in no position to dictate what is right and wrong.
As for Sharia… where in any of my posts did I say I condone Sharia? I ask what you know of it. Is the mere question of what you know imply that I am a proponent of it? I asked you all what your qualifications are. Did I say I was a subject matter expert? No.
I can see how Meredith is right in the sense that nothing is being solved here and efforts to make something good must be made elsewhere. This is nothing more than a bunch of people who are spouting opinions.
I’ll play a Meredith and just refrain from posting anything. Short bus people win again. Later!
well, um people get defensive- i do suspect that regulars here dont support sharia- yet, by saying ‘what do u know of it” does sound offputting. As if to say ‘u have no right to speak’, yet to ask it as a real question, its hard to answer clearly. We’ve all heard plenty about sharia. I know i would not want it.Is it immutable? Or less malleable than manmade law it is thought to come from Allah? also, do children and women have the same guarantees of their rights being upheld? Are there systems to protect them if they are in disagreement with a decision?
oops- i didnt see all the foul language a few back- forgot my comment – i am gone- no comment necessary
Look at that list again: every single one is an action that Americans understand and respect. There have been several statements of admiration for Muslim activists in this thread, one of them by me.
Yes, it is. Not every negative observation should be considered offensive “bagging,” however. This thread has seen both hate-filled screaming against Islam and reasonable, legitimate criticisms. How do I know they’re reasonable and legitimate? Because many of them are points previously made by the authors themselves. Strict Islamic law being misogynistic, for example.
My comment wasn’t addressed towards Americans, it was directed towards another Arab-Muslim who claimed that we were doing nothing but making excuses for other Muslims’ behaviors when we are the first to condemn and campaign against them.
Standing up for one’s faith is something that should be respected, clearly many people within this thread do not believe this. Each time we stand up for our faith we are attacked and insulted. It makes me sick.
I know your remark wasn’t addressed towards Americans: I just want you to know that American culture sees these actions as admirable.
war geek? wth kind of insult is that? what war am I supporting? now you are a pathetic liar danial who is just making up slurs because you know your vile and bigoted sharia can not stand on its own.
and sharia courts are across malaysia. so again you are a liar in your pathetic “defense” which isn’t really a defense but just a bunch of slanderous attack for your barbaric sharia.
I think this has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that muslims react grotesquely to questioning of their bigoted laws. danial being the prime example of the hatred bred by the bigotry of islam and sharia.
limpia, Sharia isn’t monolithic. A basic understanding of Islamic history would have informed you and Bob of that.
You’re telling me that Sharia under the Fatimids was the same as Sharia in Iran? Or Sharia under the Ottoman Empire was similar to Shariah in Taliban-run Afghanistan?
Yeah right.
danial is right, sharia is even different from iran to saudi arabia. of course saying “sharia isn’t monolithic” and pretending thats a salient point is a pathetic unintellectual argument that fundamentally ignores the sustained, historical and modern bigotry of sharia.
bored Wrote, “Care to cite any vile and violent passages for me? No?”
Yes, I already put a link to violent and vile passages to the Bible (Old and New Testament) See http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac12.htm#links
MyTwoCents Wrote, “Can’t you find a Christian site to discuss that on?”
But Meredith and many others have this attitude that violent and vile scripture is is unique to Islam, I wanted to remind her that this is not true. By the way, why did you say find a Christian, but not a Jewish site, to discuss this on?
MyTwoCents Wrote, “Rallies burning the 9/11 Commission Report: That’s a great idea, Randal. Are you volunteering to organize it?”
I’m not into burning books; it was you who first mentioned it. I prefer to blog and put comments on websites and send emails to various media outlets to try to spread the word on the problems with the official explanation of 9/11. Actually, I think that it is the use of the internet to spread information that has helped prevent any further lynching of Arabs and Muslims for 9/11.
Esra’a Wrote, “Oh man, this thread got boring pretty fast.”
That is easy for you to say, it isn’t your country that is being bombed and occupied.
You claim that you are for justice and human rights and have taken up various causes, but founding out the truth about 9/11 is none of your concern. This despite 9/11 being used by the most power country in the world to affect foreign and national policies of many countries.
Those who you criticize as “Muslim bashers” in the beginning topic you have posted also use 9/11 to demonize all Muslims.
bob wrote, “omg randaljones, another truther. who would have thought. you know that truthers are universally ridiculed right?”
President G.W. Bush is often ridiculed inside and outside the United States. SO what’s your point?
I just look at the evidence, not on whether somebody ridicules it.
Besides have you checked out the FBI’S webpage on Usama Ben Laden? It doesn’t mention 9/11. See my post about it here http://gettingtruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/where-was-osama-ben-laden-on-sept-11.html
It includes a video from a news report that asks why has Usama ben Laden not been indicted for 9/11.
bob wrote, “I doubt there is a coincidence that a truther advocate also wants to talk about “the crimes of the west.” its all the same sick mindset.”
If you want Muslims to look at their crimes, why not set the example by looking at the crimes of the West? You are the one with the sick and hypocritical mind. When colonialism was ending many Muslims admired the West, but when they saw that they wanted to take their natural resources by supporting brutal dictators and kings who would do their bidding, that was when they began to hate the West. The West doesn’t just do this in the Muslim world, it also does it in the non-Muslim parts of Africa, Asia and South America.
Dude, seriously, get a life.
Salma wrote, “Israel was the first on the scene with kitchens, portable kitchens, food, and people to help and Jews do not believe in converting at all, yet, they were sent back.”
There were non-Muslims countries that refused help from Israel as well, like Sri Lanka. Maybe they have reason to do so. In Victor Ostrovsky’s (former Mossad agent) book “The Other Side of Deception” in CHapter 17, he mentions how Israel sold weapons to both sides of the conflict in Sri Lanka.
I wonder what kind of human being you are when you have nothing to say about the repeated incursions and destruction of the infrastructure of the occupied Palestinians. This has resulted in the suffering of millions of innocent children, women and men. You expect Palestinian Muslims and CHristians to behave as if this is alright because Israel is giving a few crumbs to Muslims in Indonesia.
Salma wrote,, “Christians including the Pope, condemned the crusaders and Jews condemn the actions of their people but the tribes of Arabia and their spread mentality the one that really tainted Islam and ruined it, would defend their own, and as with all the Muslims here, when they have nothing to say, they come up with a counter attack, a lame one too, and as an Arab I can tell you that it means that they KNOW that what was said is the truth but they are too defensive and proud to admit it.”
Do you know where the most number of killings and rapes are currently occuring? The Christian COngo.
But the Pope, other Christians and Jews have nothing to say about this because the United States, Israel, and Europe benefit from the diamonds, other natural resources, slave labor and sale of weapons. See http://zmagsite.zmag.org/JulAug2007/snow.html
Esra’a Wrote, “Dude, seriously, get a life.”
How about you? You took on the cause of Burma. how much do you really know of what’s going on in Burma? It’s as if you don’t have your hands full already trying to change things in the Middle East.
Is this really what you waste your time doing? Spamming other sites with “9/11, 9/11, 9/11!” even when it’s completely irrelevant to the thread at hand?
If you don’t like what we do on this site: go rot in your own blog. Don’t bother us with irrelevant shit.
Esra’a, you chose to post a topic about Muslims bashers, not one of them fails to use 9/11 to demonize Muslims. So I am on topic.
Ex-Muslim ones to be specific. Islamophobia has existed way before 9/11, our lives do not revolve around this single event. This obsession with 9/11 is getting out of hand. What happened is horrible and unjustifiable, but these lives that were lost are not any more valuable than the lives being lost everyday in most parts of the world. I wish that we can just move on.
randall, I failed to use 9/11. and trust me, even ppl w/in the psychotic truther movement are losing their esteem. anyone not motivated by racism or hatred of america is becoming pooped. read this from inside the ideological counter-culture that envelopes the truther movement:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=2275
and the brutal dictators that survive in the arab world have ZERO, let me repeat, ZERO to do w/ the west. we “support” mubarak in egypt, but don’t support assad in syria. both are still alive. we don’t support kim jong ill he’s still there. what happens to dictators in shitty third world countries is about 5% influenced by the west. some we hate, some we hate but do deals w/, some we have AND do deals w/. its not a particularly moral stance, but its not the crazy “we’re propping them up” which is observational bullshit.
you’re just another crazy truther randall.
To answer the original question, people who are attempted silenced in the west get attention because the attempts at silencing them are an assault on OUR freedom of speech, the foundation of our civilization. We are used to reports of all sorts of abuses happening in faraway countries. The amnesty international people always seem to have some petition for us to sign, that is routine, censorship at home is not something we are desensitized to yet.
I think Naser Khader, to name a moderate muslim standing up to the kooks, is at least as famous as ayaan was before van Gogh got murdered, and a brutal murder would propel him on to the international scene just as it did her. A global orchestrated riot might also do the trick.
While suiting a political agenda helps, especially on the internet, I don’t believe it is a prerequisite for fame. And remember, there is no shortage of critics of Islam who are still waiting for their 15 minutes.
Either copy/paste Meredith saying that “violent and vile scripture is is unique to Islam” or be caught in a lie, slandering posters you disagree with.
LOL. Because that was sufficient to make the point that you were trying to divert the conversation, as you are doing now.
Can you read? I asked for a direct quote from the New Testament that calls on Christians to use violence, which is what you implied. Please provide a quote that from the NT that encourages Christians to use violence. Revelations, btw is a metaphorical apocalypse. Please learn about religion before you copy/paste or link from other sites.
Tor,
Freedom of speech is not a Western value. Westerners have no problem supporting brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding.
When Alex Odeh a Palestinina Christian living in the United States was killed for his views, it didn’t give sympathy to the Palestinians. It didn’t get much media attention at all.
I would still like the answer to the question, if the mainstream media keeps on asking where are the Muslim moderates to condemn terrorism and human rights violations in Muslim countries, why don’t the media interview theses moderate Muslims? There are plenty of them.
I agree with you there.
Bob,
Nope. He’s just a guy with a different opinion.
yes murad, he is a crazy truther. now he’s talking about kings “doing our bidding” which isn’t even REMOTELY how it works. often any deals we enter into w/ dictators we get screwed on. the saudi’s have leveraged oil against us to spread islamic hatred for 50+ years. tons of dictators have taken technology they needed to drill and extract oil(especially arabs) and then “nationalized it” which is a fancy word for using the army – all those ppl with tanks and guns – to steal it.
in the end dictators more often than not do exactly what the west doesn’t want. just look at all the examples, mugabe, saddam, saudi’s, mubarak, kim jong ill. even musharaf now, DIRECTLY AGAINST what the US wants is declaring mashall law. now why do you ask even though time and time again dictators screw the west that truthers and their conspiratorial brethren can pretend that they are “doing our bidding?” that is a good question.
MyTwoCents Wrote. “Either copy/paste Meredith saying that “violent and vile scripture is is unique to Islam” or be caught in a lie, slandering posters you disagree with.”
Meredith wrote,
What arrogance this woman has. Muslims need to win the respect of the world? SO its okay for the United States to bomb Iraq and Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is a U.S. creation.
DOes Meredith have anything to say about the 3 to 5 million Buddhists killed when the United States bombed Vietnam and Cambodia? DOes Meredith have anything to say about all the regimes the U.S. and its allies have toppled, even democratically elected ones? DOes Meredith have anything to say about how the United States sell weapons to both sides of conflicts (like in the Congo and the Iran-Iraq war)?
Randall,
I specifically emphasized ‘OUR’ freedom of speech. While in foreign policy one often has to settle for the lesser of evils, domestic policy doesn’t suffer the same constraints. For democracy to function people need to be able to inform themselves and each other, constraints on speech at home thus undermines our democracies, constraints on speech in allied countries, while regrettable, don’t.
And we do care with regards to dictators and the like, but there’s only so much we can do, unless you advocate liberating more countries.
I looked up Alex Odeh, and his murder seems not to have been solved. We don’t know who killed him or why.
As for the MSM, I haven’t heard them requesting moderates at all, though I don’t watch/read them much anymore. I get that more from blogs and on forums.
Arrogant or not, she didn’t say that “violent and vile scripture is is unique to Islam,” now did she? I’m just asking that you quote people correctly and not put words in their mouths: that’s not unreasonable.
Your question “why don’t the media interview theses moderate Muslims?” is on-topic and a very key issue. In my opinion there are several factors, one of which is that interviews are not as dramatic as warfare, terrorist attacks, and abuse (film at 11). TV is a visual medium and they want film, the more dramatic, the better.
I do not think it is deliberate censorship, but I do believe that bias plays a role. Not bias against Arabs or Muslims: bias against the Bush administration. The American MSM is predominately anti-Bush and therefore not inclined to show any good news that might reflect well on him. You can find the good news coming out of the ME on moderate right websites, but of course most people dismiss that as the extreme right making excuses. Why? Because good news doesn’t fit their agenda.
For the record, the US has many times supported and even created non-democratic governments which committed gross human rights violations. This was done — despite the human cost — to serve our own political or commercial interests. These stains on our history can never be erased because history never changes: they happened. They are happening today, they will be happening tomorrow. Stopping them is one of the fronts on which the struggle for a just society is being fought and I am all in favor of discussing these issues in the proper venue.
Tor wrote,
While in foreign policy one often has to settle for the lesser of evils,…
The millions of Iraqis and Afganis are not evil. You are just making excuses. You don’t think any of them value their freedom, their lives, their homes their families?
Thge United States did not liberate Iraq. The United States had helped Saddam into power and supported him strategically and financially, when he was commiting his worst atrocities. The Iraqi people are the scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy.
The United States had recruited and trained Muslim extremists in Afghanistan so that it could give the Soviet Union its Vietnam. AS a person from the Revolutionary Association of Afghan Women (RAWA), says
Regarding the MSM, I know it doesn’t request Muslim moderates, thats my point. Why wouldn’t they, they seem to want to perpetuate fear and mistrust amongst the different religions.
notice here people w/ randall, when you’re a truther its not just “questioning 9/11.” the truther is far beyond that in terms of conspiratorial matters. a real truther has a vast array of conspiracy theories from which to draw on.
bob Wrote, “randall, I failed to use 9/11.”
Have you written a book and are you invited to television and radio programs? Are you invited to do paid lectures at universities, churches and synagogue If not, then I was not talking about you. Besides how do you I know you haven’t mentioned it under different topics or at different websites?
bob wrote, “often any deals we enter into w/ dictators we get screwed on. the saudi’s have leveraged oil against us to spread islamic hatred for 50+ years. tons of dictators have taken technology they needed to drill and extract oil(especially arabs) and then “nationalized it” which is a fancy word for using the army – all those ppl with tanks and guns – to steal it.”
The Saudis invest trillions of dollars of money in the United States. The U.S. has made billions of dollars selling sophisticated weaponry to Saudi Arabia, even though it doesn’t have the qualified personnel to use it. This is why the Saudis have to depend on the U.S. to defend them. BY the why the United States buys more oil from Canada and Mexico each, yet these countries don’t invest as much money in the U.S. or buy as much weapons either.
MyTwoCents,
Meredith wrote,
Did Americans massively protest when Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Venszuelan president Hugo Chavez? Have Americans massively protested the long history of the U.S. collaboration with Muslim extremists?
Not addressed to me, but I’ll answer anyway:
The Vietnam war was almost won, and the Vietnamese would have been way better off if it had been. Half a century later they are still living in huts, while other countries have joined the first world starting from similar beginnings. Nobody seems to care about the massacres of the communists after winning the war, only deaths which can somehow be laid at the feet of the US matter.
Toppling regimes helped win the cold war, and the world is better off than it would have been without our winning it, including for the citizens of the countries affected. And Allende was about as democratic as Chavez is today.
To my knowledge we didn’t sell Iraq/Iran anything that couldn’t be aquiered from the Soviet Union. Better then to keep the Soviets from gaining influence. I am not familiar with the Congo.
I know they do, we are working with them to help them secure these things. Already fewer people are being killed in Iraq than during Saddams dictatorship, just different people (less Kurds, more arabs) dying in more spectacular ways.
Also, we are not to blame for the vast majority of civilian casualties, the enemy is.
Did too liberate Iraq, it is now a democracy. It just needs some help fighting off the iranian proxies.
Saddam was “our son of a bitch” during the cold war. We didn’t like him, but we were better off backing him than having him side with the soviets, or being annexed by Iran. We fought communism and won, it was ugly, but nowhere near as ugly as a communist victory, or even a continuing cold war, would have been.
As for supporting the afghan insurgency, that support happened entirely on the premises of Pakistan, and was mostly carried out by their intelligence service, which is still heavily involved with the taliban. There was no effort on our part to establish a puppet regime after the Soviets abandoned Afghanistan.
Esra’a is going to give us hell about going off on this tangent though, I’m not sure what would be the proper place for it.
Don’t attribute to malice what can be attributed to laziness or incompetence. Listing car bombs and death tolls is a lot easier than doing actual journalism. Other than that I don’t know.
There has to be a story for the news media to pick up on though, I doubt they’ll go for just an interview.
I don’t really want to get involved in this line of argument, because I don’t think the people behind this project can be accused of tacitly accepting the radicals, but I just couldn’t let this slide.
Did you just draw a parallel between Pat and the eight schools of fiqh?
Seriously?
I think its official, randall “truther” jones has hijacked this thread completely w/ endless conspiracy theories. don’t worry this happens to a lot of threads that you let a truther into.
Nested quotes do not work.
Good to know.
Tor,
How many Muslims actually listen to these eight schols of fiqh? Most Muslims are just trying to earn a living to provide food for their family.
WHo has killed more people the Muslim terrorists or the bombs of the United States?
You say no one cares about the killings of the Communists, sure we do but does that mean the United States has to kill as many people in the name of stopping Communuists? Many times the United States used the excuse of the fear of spread of Communism for its illegal actions. People in other countries have a right to self-determination.
Again you make excuses for the United States. BUt then that is the easier thing to do isn’t do.
Tor wrote, “I looked up Alex Odeh, and his murder seems not to have been solved. We don’t know who killed him or why.”
Are you aware that Usama ben Laden has not been indicted for 9/11? See http://gettingtruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/where-was-osama-ben-laden-on-sept-11.html
bored Wrote, “Can you read? I asked for a direct quote from the New Testament that calls on Christians to use violence, which is what you implied. Please provide a quote that from the NT that encourages Christians to use violence. Revelations, btw is a metaphorical apocalypse. Please learn about religion before you copy/paste or link from other sites.”
Yes, I can read, you first wrote. “Care to cite any vile and violent passages for me? No?”
You did not specify the old or new testament. But if you want a violent passage from the New Testament, what about Matthew 10:34-35 where Jesus says
But more important than what the Bible says is what the U.S. administration is saying and doing. It preaches human rights and democracy, yet goes around engaging in regime change, supporting brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding. It is the number one seller of weapons, even to unstable regimes.
Okay, I’m just gonna ignore the off topic stuff and try to carry one.
That’s probably true: easier and safer. Just how good are the sources of Western journalists?
This just in, and it’s good news, or at least it’s spun that way:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
I don’t know, but I’ve heard of them before so they must be pretty influential. If authorities didn’t matter in Islam the Egyptian dude wouldn’t have been able to set off the cartoon riots.
Otherwise I plead ignorance.
In this century? Terrorists hands down.
And if they determine to align with the Soviets to muck up their region they will suffer the consequences. Note that in the case of Allende, the mechanisms of self determination had been put out of play, with the media nationalized etc. There is no reason to believe that a communist dictatorship would have been more benign than the military junta.
I’m not sure what you mean by that second sentence, but yes, I’m sticking up for the US. These aren’t post facto excuses, they’re what people said at the time. One can look back on the cold war and wish many things were done differently, but we didn’t have the luxury of being choosy with our allies, nor would it have been advisable to allow a Soviet proxy to gain a foothold on the American continent. In hindsight, mistakes were made, especially in the prosecution of wars, but I don’t envy those on the spot having to make the decisions, and I think many of the political ones you are harping about were the right decisions to make.
The most humane thing to do with regards to the cold war was win it. And lots of peoples gained self determination as a result of that victory.
The sources of western journalists range from the absolutely certain to the made up. Casualty figures shouldn’t be hard to establish, you have people reported missing, people showing up at morgues etc. The authorities compile statistics, so merely parroting the numbers, and adding a template background and simple commentary is easy.
I recommend Michael Totten by the way, his stories are always worth reading.
Tor wrote, “Did too liberate Iraq, it is now a democracy. It just needs some help fighting off the iranian proxies.”
Tor wrote, “I’m not sure what you mean by that second sentence, but yes, I’m sticking up for the US.”
Oh really than would you have anything to say about Israeli proxies in Iraq?
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/elmer.php?articleid=2959
Tor wrote, “The most humane thing to do with regards to the cold war was win it. And lots of peoples gained self determination as a result of that victory.”
SO then why did the United States recruit and train Muslim extremists (many of them foreign) instead of pro-democracy Afghans to fight the Russians?
Thanks for the link: Totten looks interesting.
Randall, I read many of your posts and I keep wondering – if you hate the US so much, why do you live here? Your tax dollars are supporting the very policies you oppose on this and other blogs. Why do you support this country by living here? Why not put your money where your mouth is, and move to a country in the developing world? And if the developing world is a little too much to handle, certainly you can move to a country with a benign foreign policy like Sweden. When I lived in Sweden, not a day went by without someone complaining to me about US policies, so I’m sure you’ll fit right in. And the Swedish social system will take care of you and your family. Why not move there?
To be fair, I don’t agree with many of the domestic and foreign policies of this country, and I am planning to leave the US in 2-3 years, once I finish my studies. Care to follow my example?
levylevthuglife,
Thank you for your suggestion, but if I have no plans of leaving the United States. Criticizing the United States does not mean I hate it, I just want it to do better. This is no different than criticizing a family member who I see doing wrong.
Randall
Randall wrote:
Never heard of them.
Now for Israel not to have an intelligence presence in Iraq under Saddam would have amounted to criminal negligence, and I don’t think they would have dismantled that capability, so I find the basic claim of such a presence credible. I don’t think the article you posted confirms it though, it’s full of shaky assertions like “mounting evidence” and “significant documentation” with no references to anything substantive. It even resorts to quoting Seymour Hersh at one point.
At any rate, an intelligence presence is not a proxy army. I’m sure lots of foreign intelligence agencies are active in the US as we speak.
Pakistani territory, Pakistani terms. they did the funneling of arms and supplies, and they determined the recipients.
Wow what a slugfest! It’s like July vacation at the family cottage.
The whole right wing “Islam is Evil” thing reminds me of the Reformed Smoker. You know the type: smoked like a damn chinmey for the longest time, didn’t care about what people said or thought about it, then, with much pain & effort, finally quit. Then they started in on the evils of smoking, and how it should be banned, and how smokers should be ostracized, and denied medical treatment if they got sick, and tobacco companies sued, when for freaking CENTURIES they were not only smoking but involved in the industry and got rich off of it. They chased and harangued other smokers, insulting them and calling them weak and insensitive to the feelings of others because they could not summon the superior willpower to “do the right thing”. hypocritical jackasses…
As Westerners, there are some things that we identify with Islamic culture and possibly with the religion itself that we find contrary to our experience of human rights. But, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. These same human rights that everyone seems to wave around are less than a century old in the west in most cases, and only a couple of decades old in many. Islamic inspired terrorism is a troubling phenomenon, but is a bucket compared to the sea of blood generated by the “Christian” and Secular West (the US, Britain, Germany, France, Russia) in the 20th century. As for the journalists? Bad news sells, fear keeps em coming back for more, and peace is bad for sales and ratings.
Oh, and Tor? Applied US technology killed more civilians in Hiroshima one morning than have ever been killed by terrorist bombs, and can we end the competition now? In conclusion, let me say that I believe that a similar attack, whether nuclear or chemical, will be achieved against the West by these extremists everyone is so afraid of sometime in the near future, and will constitute the traumatic apex of their influence in the Muslim world. I do not fear this event, but the vengeful response of the above mentioned powers who, which everyone seems to forget, ARE armed with the most destructive and hideous arsenal in all of history, and, as the actions of the Bush, Blair and Putin administrations have shown, wear human rights, liberty, and civilized conduct like cloaks, flashy in public but easily discarded when one wishes to fight.
I thought it was obvious that I was speaking of the New Testament when I boldened it.
As to Matthew 10, this isn’t as much encouraging violence as it is a prophecy regarding what is going to happen because Jesus has come, and it has turned out to be quite true in many instances.
Dawoud,
Thank you for proving my point, you say: “Salma, go to hell. You are just a jealous, envious I don’t know what to call you person….you don’t know history, and before you go taking something in history, such as conversions of Christians and Jews, you better quote your sources. White Turks- again, you better quote some sources…….then do so and stop being an ass-clown.”
I said:
“….and as with all the Muslims here, when they have nothing to say, they come up with a counter attack, a lame one too, and as an Arab I can tell you that it means that they KNOW that what was said is the truth but they are too defensive and proud to admit it.”
Maybe if you actually bothered to go beyond what you claim that I said and going out of your way to show defensiveness, you would have noticed that I am a native, Arab, Muslim, not someone who is being taught what they want you to know and see, the romantic version of a perfect history filled with perfect leaders and perfect wholesome takeovers. At any rate, going to the Arab world to learn Islam is like going to a pond to learn deep sea fishing. One would assume that they know it all and argue with those who’ve been in an actual deep see; ain’t helping…
Since you’ve determined my ignorance, maybe you can clear something up to me?
1-Jealous and envious of what?
2- How do you explain that Muslims conquered lands with no bloodshed at all, even when those nations didn’t even pose a threat, like Spain?
3- Do you suggest that in order to “understand” anything I need to ONLY read the version of those who you want me to?
4- How did the Mongols become white? Maybe evolution and a miracle??
As a Historian and a ME Expert (YES, PROFFESIONALLY) I am very verse in the history of the region so much so, that universities world wide, even in Islamic states ask my opinions AND my predictions of the ME and Islamic world issues. I’ve never been wrong because I base them on history. You see, I actually read everyone’s side to get the full picture and despite the defense of Muslims of the way non Muslims were treated, I don’t know anyone who ever refuted Jizya and to this day, Saudi will not allow Churches to be built; the Muslim world has a specific law forbidding conversion and base that on Sharia (THOUGH NOT FOUND IN THE QURAN), which was my initial point to you.
If you can show me something to say that the Muslim world allows freedom of religion, that they let others choose, just like the freedom you had when you converted to Islam, go ahead.
For now, you are the one who needs to get out of the self imposed bubble, and if you want to be a Muslim learn to see all the bad as well and stay there, as I did, and then call yourself anything you want. Denial of the facts in the name of rationalization only exhibits insecurity and doubt, but this is a general statement and does not apply to you or anyone else who chooses to deny it….
Thank you for the Islamic manners that you exhibited here and for proving to me again that any disagreement about Muslims, past and present, is unacceptable. It explains the “progressiveness” of the Islamic world.
Nice going ya sheikh.
Salamat
Salma
Bash Muslims, by the way, does not mean bash Islam… Here is something for your reading pleasure, Dawoud
The following excerpts for discussion are from:
Erdem, Y Hakan, Slavery in the Ottoman Empire and its Demise,
Inalcik, H. The Ottoman Empire, “The Palace”
(Erdem, p.1,2)
Employment of slaves: it is commonly concluded in modern historiography that what differentiated the Ottoman military-governmental slave system from its Muslim predecessors was the introduction of the child-levy, the Devshirme. Many Muslim states imported slaves from outside their domains and employee them as soldiers, officials and administrators, whereas the Devshirmehad its sources of supply within the Ottoman Empire.
Discussion about the legality of the Devshirme has given rise to the rarely challenged axiom that it was illegal and incompatible with the Sharia.
{Why might that be?}
There is no question about the legality of the capture of non-Muslims from the dar-al-harb (’Abode of War’). After a battle or a conquest it was up to the sovereign to decide the fate of the captives or the defeated.
1. He could order them to be executed. This was clearly a case in which slavery failed to be an alternative to death.
2. He could set them free on the condition either of ransom or of release of Muslim captives, or both.
3. He could set them free without ransom [the granting of zhimmis status had this effect].
4. He could order their enslavement.
It was practically impossible physically to enslave a whole defeated non-Muslim people, although vast numbers of non-Muslims are known to have been enslaved after important battles. The effects of enslavement on a grand scale would be detrimental to traditional Ottoman policies in regard to captured cities and lands, for it would lead to the destruction of local economies through the dispersal of inhabitants as captives, which in turn, would decrease Ottoman extraction of taxed from these regions. But the enslavement of the defeated was a theoretical possibility from a Sharia point of view… A theoretical enslavement of this kind could have paved the way for the Ottomans actually to enslave non-Muslim children for military-governmental service when they required their services.
(p.4,5)
It seems that the non-Muslims’ way of entry into Ottoman jurisdiction helped to determine their future status to a great extent. Those peoples of the scriptures who, like the Iberian Jews, willingly submitted to Ottoman rule were granted full zhimmis status. One of the very obvious signs that they were zhimmis was exemption from the Devshirme. On the other hand, once they were theoretically enslaved, the Sultan, as the leader and representative of the Islamic community, would have the right of ownership over these forcibly conquered ‘captive’ populations According to the sharia principles, the offspring of parents who were both slaves would inherit the parents’ status. Even conversion to Islam was not sufficient to make either the parents or the offspring free.
The advantages of the Devshirme system of slave recruitment over casual enslavement are obvious. Through this system the Ottomans were enabled to choose appropriate slaves from among their pool of available ’slaves’.
(Inalcik, pp.78,9)
[already in operation at the end of the fourteenth century, it continued to evolve through the fifteenth] In the sixteenth century, when a levy was to be made the sultan’s ferman first appointed a commissioner and a janissarie officer for each district. Under the supervision of the local qadi and sipahi, at each village the commission summoned all male children between the ages of eight and twenty, and their fathers, choosing those children who appeared to be fit. The levee included only the children of Christian villages engaged in agriculture, excluding urban children and any only child. The commission recorded each child’s name and description in a register and sent the boys in groups of a hundred to a hundred and fifty to the aga of the Janissaries in Istanbul.
An Ottoman source of the early 17th century explains the exemption of Muslim Turks from the Devshirme: “If they were to become slaves of the sultan, they would abuse this privilege. Their relatives in the provinces would oppress the reaya and not pay taxes. They would oppose the sanjak beyis and become rebels. But if the Christian children accept Islam, they become zealous in the faith and enemies of their relatives.”
The government considered the Devshirme as an extraordinary levy on the reaya [tax paying subjects] not as the enslavement of its own subjects. There were levies every three to seven years, according to need. [Estimates very from 1000 to 3000 taken annually]
[note the difference in interpretation from that of Erdem: what, as historians, do we make of this 'debate'?]
When the youths arrived in Istanbul the best of them were selected as pages for the Palace. …They then went to Palaces in Istanbul and Edirne to receive a special training, while the remainder were hired out… to Turkish villagers in Anatolia before entering the Janissary corps. According to Ottoman sources, Mehmed the Conqueror established this practice which was intended to teach the boys the Turkish language and Turkish customs. … European observes record that the temperament and capabilities of each boy were carefully considered. Those who showed an ability in the religious sciences prepared for the religious professions; those proficient in the scribal arts prepared for a career in the bureaucracy.
According to [one writer] who had himself been a page, the Palace education aimed to produce “the warrior statesman and loyal Muslim who at the same time should be a man of letters and polished speech, profound courtesy and honest morals”. But its fundamental aim was to instill complete obedience and loyalty to the sultan.
(Erdem, p.9-11)
Like other mamluks in other Islamic countries, the sultan’s slaves were theoretically cut off from their natal culture, and were expected not to develop any ties in society except for those to their master, in this case, the Sultan. This would ensure their loyalty. However, in addition to their development of ties among themselves as well as their continued relations with their homelands, it seems that there was ample opportunity during their basic training for them to develop ties to their ‘temporary masters’ whether they were Turkish peasants, artisans, high-ranking askeris or ulema. But it still can be maintained that the Devshirme boys in Anatolia and the novices in Istanbul and in other cities were the nearest kapakulus to the position of ordinary slaves in the Ottoman Empire. Till the day of their admission into the janissari regiments, they performed many tasks similar in nature to those which were performed by slaves who belonged to private individuals, and these tasks bore little, if any resemblance to their future function as military slaves. Considering the tendency to manumit slaves after a certain period of service, usually seven years, in Ottoman society we can regard this period of basic training as the Devshirme boy’s term of actual slavery.
Randall is the one pelting stones, I’m mostly just parrying them.
Courtesy of Nazism, Fascism and Communism, you’ll notice I’m the one arguing that we did the right thing in stamping those out. If we are able to nip Islamism in the bud, before it topples a bunch of governments, we might be able to avert a similar bloodbath.
Obviously you missed the “In this century” qualifier. I meant to emphasize that we are hardly the ones massacring civilians in this current conflict. I don’t see the relevance of the aforementioned history.
Also:
1) Not a competition
2) Not initiated by me
3) Not very relevant
“Competition” ended.
Interesting, 9/11 seemed to have the opposite effect, and the Muslim world was less antagonistic towards us then than it is now. Why do you think another high profile attack will impact their popularity negatively? And even if it does, won’t that be offset by the polarizing effect turning sympathizers into terrorists?
I’m addressing this question to those on this forum actually living in the Middle East, and thus having a clue; How would your societies react to islamist terrorists breaking new ground with a nuclear or large chemical attack in a western country in the current political climate? Ignore the rest of this post, this is more interesting. I know it’s off topic, but that seems par for the course for this thread right now.
From where I sit human rights and liberty seem better entrenched now than they would have been if not for the actions of the Bush and Blair administrations. Putin is another matter, but then dictators will be dictators.
I am hijacking this thread, and I thought it deserved a post of its own:
I’m addressing this question to those on this forum actually living in the Middle East, and thus having a basis for speculation:
How do you think your societies would react to islamist terrorists breaking new ground with a nuclear or large chemical attack in a western country, given the current political climate?
Campaign against it. And this time, they’ll do their best in being as visible as possible, so the West (not the government – actual communities) know who their friends really are instead of creating an invisible enemy through obsessive and inaccurate media coverage.
But as usual, we are going to have arrogant people claiming to know us and our societies better than we know our selves, so before they start with the bitch fest, I suggest they do not answer this question for us via stereotypical bullshit and allow Middle Easterners to answer this themselves.
Indeed.
Said arrogant people won’t get far unless they’re given something to work with though, the footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets after 9/11 served that purpose for that event. Mass rallies protesting the attack would, I think, have a significant impact.
At present the first negative stereotype of Muslims that comes to most peoples minds here is that of cartoon-rioters, an icon of unreasonability, rather than that of suicide bombers. This stereotype is compounded by intermittent stories of muslims making silly demands, like refusing to transport guide dogs in cabs, or refusing to check out “haram” foodstuffs at the mall, and the far left pandering to them. Basically local issues.
However, as with the stereotypes painting the English as stuck up nobility and uncivilized hooligans depending on the season, people are fully aware that these stereotypes are caricatures, and not representative of the general population. Currently a widespread perception here is that militant views are held by a sizable minority, but rarely acted upon, with the right considering the problem somewhat more widespread than the left.
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and to a lesser extent Egypt are seen as the more radicalized societies, with Palestine set aside for another debate. Saudis are seen as bankrolling militancy worldwide. Those following the news know that Iran operates militia proxies in Lebanon and Iraq, and many stories have aired on Iranian discontent with their regime. Iranians are chiefly perceived to be victims of a regime instated by the previous generation.
And that is how the world looks from Norway.
That came off as way negative and critical, it wasn’t intended to be.
I just went off on a tangent describing public perceptions, I did not intend to dismiss your answer or anything. This place needs an edit function, I am making an ass of myself.
Salma, I am here in Bahrain not to just learn true Islam. Islam came after the fact. My choices for deciding to make my home here after 25 years of moving around were- I am at peace here, I have a lot of good friends throughout the GCC, I started a business and lastly, I am not comfortable with living full time in Japan or the USA.
What’s with
Show me where I wrote that remark.
Also, what’s with
That sounds so envious or jealous.
In fact, Most Muslims think of Spain as Occupied Muslim land yet they talk about others, What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Mongols kidnapped children and put them in Gov, and eventually became the white Turks that we know today.
I have news for you THE CRUSADERS ARE DEAD, IT IS OVER FOR A LONG TIME and one point, MULIMS ARE AND WERE CRUSADERS ATTACKING OTHERS UNDER THE FALSE CLAIM OF RELIGION.
I concur with you. I am sure that people would say to me that I have no idea what I am talking about, since I emigrated here and I am still finding out more and more of the rich and colorful history, cultures, the different peoples and their heritage and all of the good and bad and in between things that come with everyday life here in Bahrain interlaced with my faith as a Muslim. I had a conversation with a friend of mine over at Gulf Air a few days ago regarding all of the outside comments and opinions of Islam and the ME and the ME brand of Islam in addition to the stereotypes concocted by the west. I am starting to see the things from the perspective of a local and a Muslim man. It’s not that I was ignorant of things, but now that my life is 24-7 Bahrain and local life, I understand a lot of issues more clearly. The point of view of many in the ME is that all that is happening now will pass and that the memory of ME people goes back very very far and nothing is ever forgotten. People talk of Salahuddin and the Crusaders like it was yesterday, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Isa (PBUH), how Islam was used in good ways and bad ways, the same characteristics of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the way of the bedouin, the thousands of years of unrest in Saudia down south towards Yemen, the Levant peoples and so much more. I could have never received this had I decided to pursue life further in the west, and I proved something by doing what I did… one can never truly understand people, culture and their history unless one actually lives and becomes one with them and does things in the ways and fashion of local peoples.
The evidence against Iranians is shaky, yet the mainstream media acts like it has 100% proof. Israel has a long history of setting off bombs and blaming it on Muslims. The more well known and acknowledged one is the Lavon Affair. Why is acceptable for Israel to have intelligence in Iraq, but not acceptable for Iran to have intelligence in Iraq?
What did Pakistan gain from the Afghan-Russian war besides millions of war refugees and extremists wanting to overthrow the Pakistani regime? Pakistan could have used the money to fight for Kashmir. It was the Untied States that benefited the most from the war: giving the Russians their “Vietnam” and when the Soviet Union collapsed, the United States became the number one super power in the world.
But here is an interview with (National Security Advisor to President Carter) Zbigniew Brzezinski at http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
where he says
and
Tor wrote, “Said arrogant people won’t get far unless they’re given something to work with though, the footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets after 9/11 served that purpose for that event. Mass rallies protesting the attack would, I think, have a significant impact.”
Were there mass rallies when those Israelis were caught on 9/11 in New Jersey dancing and cheering while filming themselves, with the Word trade Center towers in the background?
In case you plead ignorance about this, see these videos
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=575834042418696847
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6110095161238848541
Also see these videos about Israelis that were caught on 9/11 in a van with explosives headed for the George Washington Bridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2nVkN983fU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7-hSEyVDz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFImTQm6Kk
I believe there is much confusion out there. I truly believe that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has the right picture, and I truly believe I, too, have the right picture. At one time I did not have the right picture. I truly believed that Islam was the Religion of Peace. Now, I know that it isn’t. Hirsi Ali and I know that the good so-called Muslims are not Islamic. The good Muslims are just good people, who are following the light of their conscience that was given to them by the God of Love. That’s all they’re doing. The good Muslims are not imitating Muhammad at all! Not at all! If the good Muslims studied the Qur’an, Hadiths, Sunnah, and other Muslim historical documents, they will see that they are not followers of these Muslim historical documents. Why is Ayaan Hirsi Ali fearing for her life? She fears for her life because the true Islamists are very evil, and are following their historical documents. These true Islamists want to murder Hirsi Ali, and that is why she fears for her life. Do the good so-called Islamists want to murder Hirsi Ali? No, absolutely not! Study the philosophy of Jesus Christ and the philosophy of Muhammad, and the good so-called Muslims will see that they are far more like Jesus Christ than they are like Muhammad. Be fair, and study Muhammad and you’ll see that Muhammad was a scoundrel. Muhammad married little Aisha when the child was only six years old. Why would Muhammad want to marry a little girl six years old? Only an unbalanced person would do that! Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was about eight years and nine months old. In a civilized world, Muhammad’s act is called rape. Mahammad had at least nine wives and two steady concubines. Muhammad was cruel, a murderer, brutal, disrespectful and chauvinistic. He taught that women are inferior. Do the good so-called Muslims think that women are inferior? The so-called Muslims that I knew din’t think so. Look it up and you’ll see that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is correct. So don’t blame her or me either. Maybe you should blame yourselves for not reading the historical documents of Islam. I mentioned that you nice so-called Muslims are only nice people. That’s all you are. You are not true Islamists. You just think you are. You are not at all like Muhammad, and I’m glad that you’re not. God bless you for that! Study Jesus Christ and you’ll see that you are far more like Jesus Christ than you are like Muhammad. Jesus Christ was kind and humble, and so are many of you who call yourselves Islamists, but actually are not Islamists simply because you are not at all like the founder of Islam. So don’t be angry with me and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. That poor soul gets it from all sides, from the true Islamists who want to murder her, and from the good so-called Muslims, who don’t know her and don’t like her. May the God of Love bless you. I’m not asking Allah to bless you. That’s another story.
There is nothing I find more annoying than inconsiderate Christian missionaries who think it’s right and just to shove their own religion down our throats. Don’t tell me to go read about Jesus or to consider him my Savior. Don’t try to convert us to your religion. We are happy with ours; we are not interested in converting to yours or anybody else’s.
You’re quite arrogant to present a mere opinion as “fact.”
Everything you said is just that; an opinion. Nothing more.
And don’t dare try to use this website for your missionary purposes.
Dear Esra’a, why are you so angry? I present historical facts that I got from the Muslim historical documents. They are not opinions. Don’t you believe the historical facts presented in the Muslim historical documents? When I said that nice and humble so-called Muslims are more like Jesus Christ, than like Muhammad, I’m presenting a fact. Why did it ruffle your feathers? Will you have the courage to answer the following questions: Would you like to emulate Muhammad? Are you trying to emulate Muhammad at present? Do you think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali should be punished? Do you believe I should be punished for writing sincere facts? Will you have the courage to answer the above questions? May the God of Love bless you and also my enemies. I really mean that. I pray for enemies of mankind every day. Do you? I’ve gotten along very well with certain Muslims, but that’s because they were very nice. Are you very nice? Perhaps I received the wrong vibe, but I don’t think you are Christlike at all.
Randall: The evidence against Iranians is shaky
Not really.
Randall: [9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy]
snicker
Randall: Why is acceptable for Israel to have intelligence in Iraq, but not acceptable for Iran to have intelligence in Iraq?
Intelligence agencies are not proxy armies, and are not staffed with commandos. Iran supplies arms, funding and training to Iraqi militias, and even dispatches IRGC forces to work with them on missions.
Randall: What did Pakistan gain from the Afghan-Russian war besides millions of war refugees and extremists wanting to overthrow the Pakistani regime?
The Taliban weren’t looking to overthrow Musharaf before he turned on them after 9/11, and even today the taliban overlap significantly with the Pakistani intelligence services. The taliban used to be a Pakistani proxy.
Randall: Pakistan could have used the money to fight for Kashmir.
Our money, our arms. We didn’t run the day to day operations, but we weren’t about to let the Pakistanis divert our assets to a different theater.
Randall: It was the Untied States that benefited the most from the war: giving the Russians their “Vietnam” and when the Soviet Union collapsed, the United States became the number one super power in the world.
The US, though they did bankroll the effort, didn’t benefit nearly as much as did eastern Europe. Countries across the world were freed from Russian domination, economic planning (which was discredited as the true state of the soviet economy became known), and communist guerrilla movements (discredited and demoralized). The Russians also benefited, though they lost geopolitical influence.
Even with the taliban, regrettable as they are, the world is better off than it would have been without the afghan debacle.
Good, that makes me happy. I don’t want to ever end up like you missionary folks going around telling people what to believe and how to live their lives. It’s pathetic and sad.
I am not angry; I am just extremely annoyed because I come across people like you in my own Muslim country too. “Ohh, you are so wrong, Jesus is the right path for you!” Why don’t you just shut up and let others believe what they wish to believe? It’s our personal choice. Not you or anyone else gets to make it.
And yes, you thinking that our God is fake and that we are not real Muslims is simply a matter of opinion. Not a fact.
Philip Saenz,
I find your ignorance extremely offensive. Simply because you claim things as fact does not make them fact. Your argument regarding the similarities between the ‘good people’ and Jesus or Mohammed is baseless and well quite frankly rather infantile. Firstly, little is really know about the Prophet Mohammed just as little is really known about Jesus. And secondly, how on earth could you possibly measure, or compare the ‘goodness’ of the people. Have you carried out a study that may prove this fact of yours?
As for your references to Aisha, Prophet Mohammed’s wife, we do not know exact ages of when they married, or of when they consumated their marriage. She was likely to be very young, in our current perspective. But you also fail to mention the other things talked about with regard to Aisha, namely her significance to the spread of Islam, both before and after the Prophets death.
And I dont think it is anyone’s place to punish anyone else. You are free to say and believe what you want, but that does not make it right. I would insist however, that you search a little harder before you claim your words as fact.
Dear Tamara, why are you saying indirectly that what you have written are opinions, and, therefore, cannot be reliable? Perhaps you can help me. Why is it that authentic Muslims never say that they would like to emulate Muhammad? That question interests me most of all. You see, I want to know who my enemies are. Why are you saying that you cannot rely on Muslim historical documents? Do you believe history only when it enhances your agenda, and reject those parts when it goes against your philosophy? Is that the thing to do? All you need to do is see many evils in your philosophy. For example, women are treated as inferiors in some parts of the Muslim world. Do you believe it is proper to see women as inferior to men? I hope it isn’t dangerous in your country to say that women should have equal rights as men. I’ll be waiting for your answers. I’ll be praying for you today to the God of Love. Do you mind?
Oh this guy’s a missionary alright, he’s hard at work turning Christians into atheists. Don’t know if he’s aware of it though.
This tedious argument just never gets old to you, does it? What happens in some (certainly not most!) Muslim countries is not representative of the faith. It’s politics, tradition, and society. It could even be pre-Islamic.
Even though I am a free woman in a religiously tolerant Muslim country, free to make my own choices; I’d pick a Muslim society over a Christian extremist one where I’m forced to be “Christlike” any day.
Philip,
I am not saying ‘indirectly’ that your comments are only opinions, I am saying bluntly that what you are saying is baseless, and could not possibly be taken seriously, never mind taken as fact.
I dont really know what you mean by ‘authentic’ muslims, or if you or anyone could ever measure that. But taking it as I pressume you intend it to be understood, I do not infact agree that a muslim has never said they would want to ‘emulate’ Prophet Mohammed. Also, Mohammed was at the end of the day, only a man, he never pressumed to be perfect and without flaw.
I would like to point out, that you do not know my philosophy. But indeed it will have its flaws and evils, just like any. I think history is a lot more complicated than you seem to understand, and the history that we think we know, is only really a version that we are allowed to know. You also seem to forget that we can not continue to live in our history, we can not find our ‘enemies’ through an invesitgation into ‘history’, change is constant.
And why are you so insistant of having an enemy? On having your god vs. our god? Do you really know so little about the esoteric essense of so many religions, specifically with Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
As for your remark towards inequality for women, yes that is present in certain Muslim countries, as it is present in every country in the world. It has only been 50odd years since Women had rights anywhere! Do you not know your history?
I lived in Syria and the UAE for the first 20 years of my life, and I currently live in the UK. There are issues I dislike in each of them, issues that need to be resolved, and that is what needs to be worked on. Not this unnecessary religious bigotry that you so strongly possess. It is people like you that prevent war and hate from ending, and people like you exist within every nation, every race, every religion, and every philosophy.
I’m glad you mentioned that Muhammad wasn’t a saint. No, he wasn’t. But I have seen some Muslims that were far, far saintlier than Muhammad. In fact, they were more like Jesus Christ than like Muhammad. No, I’m not a missionary. I’m just an inquisitive person, who writes facts even if they hurt. Now,here are some more problems. There are 73 contradictory sects in Islam. Which one is the true sect? I’m sure you understand that these sects contradict each other here and there. That of course means that at least 72 are teaching errors and maybe all. There are always errors in contradictions. Which one of the sects if any is teaching only the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I’m sure you also understand that the solitary sect, if any, which is teaching only the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth needs the charism of infallibility to keep it from diviating. Which one of the sects never diviates? In other words, which sect has remained constant with the infallible truths? I’m sure you understand that the God of Love never contradicts Himself. I’m sure you also understand that the God of Love is immutable. Okay which Muslim sect, if any, remains constant with the ingredients that are necessary for salvation? I’m sure you understand that infallible truths would help immensely in leading a person to the God of Love. I cannot believe that contradictions lead a person to the God of Love. If anything, since there are errors in contradictions, contradictions would lead a person in the opposite direction since errors are not compatible with the God of truth, and nothing but the truth. Here is another big problem: The argument is that if the whole world were Muslim, there would be peace. Do you believe that? If that’s true, why are the Muslim Sunni’s murdering the Muslim Shiites and the Muslim Shiites are murdering the Muslim Sunni’s on a daily basis? This is also true with the Kurds, the Wahabbis and many other Muslim sects. Why isn’t there peace among these contradictory Muslim sects? Aren’t they all Muslims? Don’t they all belong to the Religion of Peace? Where is that peace among them? Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like to see people murdering each other, no matter their religion. Which Muslim sect would be the safest to join? Which Muslim sect do you belong to? Is your sect infallible with its truths?
Hahaha.. are you really serious? Is this your argument? If it is and if you indeed do believe yourself to be a Christian, then you just nullified your own Christianity and your Christ.
I would ask you, how many different divisions are there in Christianity? Have these different ’sects’ not been at war throughout Christianity’s history and is it not also ever present today? The fact that these differences exist, even within the same religion, simply shows the possibility of the destructive nature of man, through the desire for power.
Personally, I do not have a label for myself, I have a strong beleif in the sacred, God, and my relationship with this divine is private and cannot possibly be expressed in mere words.
Yeah, does Northern Ireland ring a bell?
I realize that this is not central to the argument, but in the interest of accuracy the conflict in Northern Ireland was not a religious one.
Northern Ireland Was a conflict pitting Irish Nationalism against a majority of Scottish descent. When the Irish voted, county by county, whether to leave the united kingdom, six counties in the north voted no, and formed Northern Ireland. This happened because the Scottish expatriate formed a majority in these six counties, and they wanted to remain tied to Scotland.
Parties to the conflict are more accurately described as unionists and republicans (favoring merger with the republic of Ireland), the reflection of that division in sectarian adherence is a historical coincidence. The Scottish immigrants had brought protestantism with them from Scotland, and the Irish were almost uniformly catholic.
The Republicans considered land ownership by people of Scottish descent illegitimate because the land had often been sold or granted to them by the British when Ireland was still a British colony. The Unionists considered bygones bygones, and backed their claims by a majority in parliament. (all counties with republican majorities had elected to partake in the formation of Ireland leaving the unionists with a two thirds majority in Northern Ireland)
Neither party to the conflict based their case on religious arguments, or fielded religious grievances. Neither party sought to infringe on freedom of religion. Christianity has a rich, though not very contemporary, history of internal sectarian strife. In all fairness though the Conflict in northern Ireland does not fit into that tradition.
The conflict ended when funding for the IRA, coming mostly from the Irish diaspora living in the US, mysteriously dried up at the end of 2001. The diaspora had held on to old grievances that the Irish themselves had mostly let go of.
So? Neither are ours (Sunni/Shiite), it’s always been about political dominance but no one ever bothers to categorize it as such. When it has to do with Islam, sure it’s just Muslims always killing each other, no need for facts or history. Apparently everyone else but us are saints! praise jezuz!
I think you are gravely mistaken if you think the war in Ireland/Northen Ireland was not a religious one. I am not an expert on the issue, I do not know the specifics of the origin of the conflict, but I do know that religion was a MAJOR factor.
The issue derives from the desire of the predominantly Catholic Northern Irish not wanting to be governed by the English and their Protestant Church of England.
Bob,
I have a suggestion.
It’s called books. Try reading some. Preferably by Reza Aslan. It might help you get over the Fox News syndrome and who knows? Maybe you’ll even get a clue.
Dear Tamara,
I’ve noticed that Muslims don’t answer hard questions. That’s okay. What you say is true. There are many splinters in the Protestant faith. But there are no splinters in the Holy Catholic Church so long as it remains with the papacy. It’s also true that Christians war against each other when they diviate from the infallible truth of Christianity. Can you see that I’m not afraid to face facts? I face facts even when those facts go against me. Can you do that? Can your friends do that? However, there is one religion that has remained constant with infallible truths when despensing the truths in faith and morals, the two ingredients that are necessary for salvation. It is the Holy Catholic Church when dispensing divine laws that it is infallible. Be careful. I said Divine Laws. I did not say penal laws, or church laws. Divine Laws in the Holy Catholic Church have never changed since the inception of Christianity. Again, be careful. I said Divine Laws.You accuse me that it’s people like me that keep wars from ever ending. Dear, if all people were like me, no one would ever murder another person. They would never rape. They would never steal or rob. Probably, they would never even lie. Put yourself in a good position and you would never place yourself in a position where you would have to lie. I do evade when people ask personal questions. Some times I simply tell them that it’s a personal question, and will not answer. That was uncharitable what you said. But that’s all right. I have forgiven you. I’ll pray for you to the God of Love. Yes, I have failed at times. I have not always been a perfect Catholic, but if I were, I would be like Jesus Christ. And yes, there is a Blessed Mother. Her voice is very beautiful. God, of course, has known you for all eternity. The Blessed Mother has not known you for all eternity because she was created in time. However, she does know you very well. Although she is limited, she, nevertheless, has been endowed with great powers coming from God. And yes, the Holy Catholic Church is the true church. Jesus is Divine. Some day you will know this. I have witnessed many miracles in the supernatural order. I pray that you too may witness miracles in the supernatural order. May God bless you. No, I’m not a missionary.
PRAISE THE LORD. CHRIST HAVE MERCY.
Philip,
There are far more divisions in Christianity than Protentantism and Catholicism. Please read a little more than the Bible and maybe you would learn a little more and finally get your head out of this primitive thought of yours.
I did answer your questions, you are just too blind to see. I care no longer to respond to any of your backward bigotted remarks. I do not care for any laws, except those of life itself. Your words are wasted here, and I think I would be speaking for more than myself on that. I do not need your judgement or forgiveness. You speak so much of this God of Love .. so tell me why does he seem to have failed to provide you with any?
“Even though I am a free woman in a religiously tolerant Muslim country, free to make my own choices” That reminds me, Esra’a: on another thread I asked which Muslim country you thought was the most liberated in terms of equal rights for women, then I couldn’t find the thread again to see if you answered.
Don’t worry about this stuff: “praise jezuz!” “PRAISE THE LORD. CHRIST HAVE MERCY.” It’s not like there are any rules against being deliberately offensive to someone’s religious beliefs, are there?
Sorry if that last part pisses you off, but I can’t just ignore it. You wouldn’t ignore it if someone was making sneering, sarcastic remarks about Islam, would you?
I apologize for any offense taken. I wasn’t trying to mock the religion however (especially when it comes to Jesus, it is against our religion to do so), just the mentality of those who fault and insult other religions in the light of their own. At the time I was just being playful but it was wrong for me to have gone that far and I am sorry if it was offensive to you or anyone else.
Oh to answer your question.
Muslim country most liberated. That’s a tough one. Because it depends.
In terms of women’s rights? I would say Tunisia. But that country is corrupt when it comes to political freedoms. You can dress like a slut there and it’s fine, and I know that many people get away with insulting Islam. I don’t consider it completely liberated because you can’t get into politics without getting yourself in serious trouble.
In terms of being a religious minority, I’d say Morocco. But insulting Islam is against the law there. Some people do it in public but not in print. If you can get your hands on a film called, “Angels of Satan,” you will see this in quite detail. It’s about a hard rock group of young boys who were being punished by the extremist elements in Moroccan society simply for liking rock, “devil music.” In the end it shows how human rights lawyers used the law to defend these kids, and how they won. It sounds irrelevant but it’s not, lots about freedom of speech and Islam.
I’d say the UAE is fairly liberal as a Muslim country, but mostly due to the number of foreigners there. I consider Bahrain to be liberal, but like any other country we also have our extremists. Fortunately they are not the majority, many people get away with saying and doing many things. And religious freedom is respected by law. Jews, Christians, and Hindus have no trouble living there.
All of this is based on personal experiences. I don’t think I’m too far off the mark, these countries are definitely at the top. I haven’t been to all Muslim countries yet and for me to be able to answer that question as accurately as possible I’d have to do that. Seeing the situation of religious minorities and freedom of speech in terms of religion is really how you can measure how tolerant and liberal the society is. Most of the countries I’ve been in respect that first part; but not the latter.
please enlighten me, what is the major differences between Kareem Amer and Hiri Ali in regard to how they “criticized” Islam?
should i make a quick research and bring you some quotes by Kareem and Hirsi Ali and see if you can tell who said what?
You are obviously missing the point.
1) Ayaan is not arrested. She is free and is living in the West.
2) Kareem doesn’t make a career out of it. Unlike Ayaan, he is actually suffering in prison because of what he wrote.
3) Disagreeing with either doesn’t mean I justify what they are going through. Show me a single sentence where I even imply that Ayaan should be attacked or threatened. I disagree with her and I think she’s profoundly wrong and offensive. I feel the same way about Kareem, it doesn’t mean I can’t consider him a friend or that I can’t fight for his freedom.
Basically, you don’t come here and tell others not to criticize such individuals if you are defending their rights to criticize. It’s hypocritical. Criticizing them doesn’t mean we are justifying any threats or attacks made against these individuals. I can criticize whoever I wish to and I am free to call them out when I personally disagree. The same rights apply to them unless violence comes in question.
There is nothing wrong with that.
like he had a chance to make a career out of it in a country like Egypt!
in Egypt you don’t have a chance to make a career out of such nasty habit…..you may receive national fame (and 500 pounds monthly) but in Egypt you will receive national contempt and a jail sentence
really, is it the first major difference to come to your mind??
I edited my response.
Kareem’s intention was always to speak his mind; he never wished to do it for the sake of limelight. That’s why he deserves to be respected and fought for, even by Muslims. He actually loves his country and the people in it.
He had the chance to leave Egypt and didn’t. When he’s free, he most likely won’t leave the country either. He is studying for his high school diploma now so that he can re-enter university as soon as he’s released in 3.5 years. That means he’s truly not interested in international fame or money the way Ayaan obviously is.
I second her sentiment. I may not agree with Kareem’s opinions about Islam, but I still have respect for him since he spoke his mind without fear of repercussions. He has more integrity than any of the shills in the West, who milk it for what it’s worth.
Thank you, Esra’a: no harm done.
Kareem’s actions speak volumes about his motives: I believe he is a genuine patriot. It’s harder to say about Ayaan: there are people who make a nice living as professional victims/bashers, and perhaps she is one. She’s certainly in more comfortable circumstances than Kareem. On the other hand, her support of free speech, women’s rights and human rights should not be dismissed. Her criticisms of Islam and Islamic societies are sometimes the same as those made by authors here at MEY, although her attitude sometimes reminds me of Ann Coulter. If you take a legitimate criticism, exaggerate it, stir in a lot of personal hatred, present it in the most attention-grabbing way you can find you can ruin the message. It can also make you look like a screaming fanatic.
I do have to agree with one point made earlier: she wouldn’t be the media darling that she is if not for the threats against her and the murder of Theo Van Gogh. Anyone extremists want to kill will be perceived as having some credibility.
Thanks, you said that way better than I did but that’s what exactly I meant.
Tor,
Here is a video news report about Israeli commandos training Kurds in Iraq
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=689217324327988215&hl=en
How nice of you to trivialize a genocide by calling it a “Debacle.”
So you admit it was U.S. money used to training these oppressive Muslim extremists? Yet you than deny U.S. responsibility in fuelling a war resulting in the deaths of millions and the destruction of infrastructure?
Tor,
Tor you are the one that asks why weren’t there mass protests concerning the Palestinians cheering on 9/11? So I am asking you were there no mass protests concerning the Israelis cheering on 9/11?
I suggest you and everyone see the videos I linked to in a previous comment (See http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/10/28/wanna-be-famous-bash-islam/#comment-81834 ). They do not say that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy. But they do discuss Israeli individuals who if not directly involved with 9/11, may have facilitated the attack.
Tor wrote: Intelligence agencies are not proxy armies, and are not staffed with commandos. Iran supplies arms, funding and training to Iraqi militias, and even dispatches IRGC forces to work with them on missions.
Here is a video news report about Israeli commandos training Kurds in Iraq
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=689217324327988215&hl=en
RandallJones, I’m inclined to agree with most of your opinions, but you need to realize that 9/11 was in fact not perpretrated by our government. It was done by Muslims, and that’s a fact.
If it wasn’t done by Muslims then why pray tell were there idiotic Muslims celebrating the attacks and referring to the hijackers as the “Magnificent 19″?
Danial,
First of all I didn’t say no Muslims were involved, but I am questioning who was it exactly that committed the acts and was it only Muslims that were involved in the attack.
Second just because Muslims were cheering and they were called the attackers the Magnificent 19 is not enough to prove the named 19 are guilty. Let us not forget that some of the men named as the hijackers turned out to be alive.
Are you were the U.S. government hasn’t officially indicted Usama ben Laden, even though there is that supposed “confession” video?
Regarding people cheering about 9/11? It was not only Muslims. As I have already mentioned there were also Isrealis. There have been others. In the book The Clash of Fundamentalisms by Tariq Ali, he writes
I’m back. I was taking a break. Hey, “Wanna be famous? Bash Islam!”
The Muslim Shiites and the Muslim Sunnis are very famous. They bash each other every day.
Philip Saenz,
how come you have nothing to say about the violent and vile things in the Bible? See http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac12.htm#links
How come you have nothing to say about the region where the most killings and rapes are occurring, the Christian Congo (predominanly Catholic)?
Is it because the United States, Israel and Europe benefit from the diamonds, other natural resources, slave labor and sale of wepons that their suffering doesnt matter?
Dear Mr. Randall Jones, Why don’t I say anything violent of the vile things in the Bible? Sir, don’t you understand? Those vile things that happened in the Bible happened thousands of years ago? I cannot undo what happened thousands of years ago. No one can! I’m not a Jew. I’m a Christian. Jesus was very peaceful. As a Christian, I’m very peaceful. The atrocities that are happening are happening today. Perhaps we can do something about it. Do you think I chortle when violent Muslims murder innocent people, even though innocent victims are Muslims? I hate that probably more than you do. It’s happening every day even as I write. I hate it when thugs pick on especially little children, any child, regardless of his color and creed. I and an army killed thousands of such thugs that were kidnapping little children and then doing with them whatever they pleased. I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to know what they were doing to them. But there is one thing you cannot imagine. After they finished with their fiendish sexual acts, the thugs would drink the children’s blood. Thugs are thugs, sir. They are not Christian simply because they were not Christlike. Thugs are not good people. They are more like demons. I’m sure the nice Muslims could do more, but they don’t. I’m trying to goad good Muslims to do more. As far as the Congo, Sudan and other places in Africa go, again they are generally Muslim thugs that are killing Christians. The good Muslims are actually not authentic Muslims. The good Muslims are not true followers of Muhammad. Thank God for that. If they were true followers of Muhammad, they would also be rapists, murderers, polygamists, child molesters, pedophiles, slave owners and just about everything else that is vile. I’ll say it again. The good Muslims are far more like Jesus Christ than like Muhammad. Do you resent that statement? If so, why? So why don’t the good Muslims, who are not true Islamists, join forces with the good Christians, and maybe we can do something about the wanton killing that is going on right this very moment? No, I didn’t say for them to join forces with the Ku Klux Klan. Those crazies are more like Muhammad than they are like Jesus Christ. The good Muslims will never turn their true religion into a good religion because their founder was violent and evil, and the historical documents of Islam are violent and evil. There will always be people who will take these documents seriously and follow them. Their are people who honestly think they should emulate Muhammad and some of them are doing a damn good job in emulating Muhammad! And that will always be the problem in Islam. That’s why Islam will always have a bad name. Are the Klukers trying to emulate Jesus Christ? Hell no, and everybody knows it! Everybody knows that the Klukers are not true Christians. But do the nice Muslims know that they are not true Islamists? They do not know that. There are people today that take Hitler seriously and follow Hitler’s violent Mein Kampf, just as their are people who will always follow Muhammad and the violent historical documents of Muslims. That’s why we have authentic Islamists, yes, those who are very evil and violent. And that’s the reason I’m saying that the good Muslims should take a strong stand and denounce every thing that was violent about Muhammad. Again, since the good Muslims are more like Jesus Christ, why don’t they say that they are trying to emulate Jesus Christ? What’s wrong with that? Read the new Testament and you’ll see that Jesus was kind, humble and peaceful, pretty much like the kind, humble and peaceful Muslims. But do these good Muslims, who aren’t real Islamists since they are not at all like Muhammad, have the humility to say that? I wonder if you understand me. Did you know that it takes authentic humility to admit to the truth? That will be a good test for to see if you are truly humble. I’m not afraid of the truth even when it hurts. For example, am I afraid to admit that about three popes were evil? I’m not afraid to say it. But these popes were evil because they were not at all like Jesus Christ. I’ll admit that I haven’t always been Christlike. Now, if you know that Muhammad was evil, will you admit it? Is admitting to the truth a stumbling block to you?
I suppose that Muslims can? Can we change what happened thousands of years ago in the name of our religion?
You still can’t deny the violence that took place in the name of Christ and Christianity throughout history, just like we can’t deny what happened in the name of our religion today, yesterday, and thousands of years ago. Why do expect Muslims to take responsibility for other people’s actions, actions that we as individuals are not directly responsible for, but you don’t take responsibility for yours?
Because we don’t believe as Christ as our savior, we don’t try to be Christlike, we have another mission in life and that is to be loyal to God and the holy Quran. We act with the Prophet Mohammed being our source of inspiration, someone we love dearly, as well as other Muslim figures who fought, amongst other things, for equality, such as Abu Bakr al-Sideeq. These are the people we try to emulate. They are the ones that represent us and our religion, the values that we stand for.
Firstly, you are implying here that the Prophet actually is evil, a claim that is just completely inconsiderate and disrespectful. It is against our religion to claim that Jesus or any of the other prophets were evil – how dare you come here, enforce your views upon us and insult our religion in this despicable manner. Is this really being Christlike? Does your religion inspire you to harass others, insult them, offend them, and threaten them to be like-minded as you? I call people like you mental terrorists. You are absolutely no different from the corrupt Imams that we despise and who intentionally misinterpret our religion for the sake of their own personal gains – calling Jews and Christians lovers of Satan when in fact they are respected in our holy book, which again speaks highly of Jesus Christ and has a verse dedicated to the Virgin Mary, full of praise. I’m sure many Christians, even some of the most religious ones, consider you an embarrassment to their faith and realize your equivalence to corrupt extremist elements in Muslim societies. As much as you try to deny it, you’re no different at all.
Dear Esra’a, I think you are a nice person, and I think you are sincere. May the God of Love bless you.
Philip:
Paragraphs! Ever heard of them?
Dear Danial, Which specific paragraphs are you talking about?
There are a lot of paragraphs in this world, tons. May the God of Love bless you.
So Philip, do you believe that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be subjected to death, as advocated in the Bible?
Oh Lord, here we go again. Sir, I’m a Catholic. That’s means that I don’t think anyone should be put to death for working on a Sabbath, unless a person is in the process of mowing down people with an AK-47, or unless a suicide bomber is in the process of trying to blow up innocent people in a crowd on a Sabbath. Yes, I believe assassins should be shot, put to death, immediately, for working on the Sabbath, before they murder innocent people, even if it is the SABBATH. Sir, our Holy Catholic Church is not an idiot church. It makes allowances when nurses and doctors have to take care of sick people in a hospital, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, even if it is the Sabbath. Quit wasting my time. I’m interesting in saving people today even if it is the Sabbath. Today is the Sabbath where I am. How are we going to stop suicide bombers today from murdering innocent people? I’m interested in saving innocent people, no matter their skin color, creed, et ceter, et cetera, et cetera. Don’t you want to save innocent people? I do, even on a Sabbath. And if I saved them on a Sabbath, the Holy Catholic Church would not punish me. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees when they condemned Him when he cured a paralytic on a Sabbath. There are many more stories about Jesus performing works on a Sabbath. Remember that I try to emulate Jesus. Like I said, the Holy Cathoic Church isn’t an idiot church. Gee, when are you going to understand me? Just how young are you? I’ve been in this world for more than seventy five years. I’ve seen a lot. I’ve saved many innocent people even on the Sabbath. No, the Holy Catholic Church would not put me to death for performing wholesome acts, no matter if it’s the Sabbath. Please settle down and get sensible. Again, my main quest is to save innocent people. Don’t you want to help? How are we going to stop crazies from preaching hatred? That happens in many places, and you know that. If you’re honest and kind, is it a reflection on you when Imams preach hatred? If a priest preached hatred, believe me when I say that I and many other Catholics would rebuke him immediately. No, we wouldn’t put him to death, but we would rebuke him IMMEDIATELY! Would you do that to an Imam? Muslims don’t do anything when Imams preach hatred. Why do you fear to rebuke them? I’ll understand if you would fear for your life. But if you would fear for your life, have the courage and humility to admit it! Seek help, and maybe together we could make that Imam to shut his big mouth. How are we going to stop suicide bombers before they murder innocent people, sometimes even their own people, unless you get more involved? Whether you believe it or not. So far, I have never heard a priest preach hatred. This very morning we prayed for people of other faiths. Believe it or not, Islamists were included within those prayers. We never preach for God to damn Muslims. NEVER! How many times have you prayed for the pope and other Catholics? We pray for all leaders, imams, politicians et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Does your religion do that? I’m not looking for a fight, but it seems that you are. I have fought in the past, even violently, but it was always in self defense. Here’s the question again: How can we join forces so that we can save innocent people, all innocent people, regardless of their creed? AND DON’T START A FIGHT AGAIN! I’m not interesting in fighting. If you are interested in people of the Catholic faith, then buy the universal catechism of the Holy Catholic Church.
Phillip: If your goal is to stop “the wanton killing that is going on right this very moment (emphasis added)” then historical criticisms are counter-productive. Especially when presented with a total lack of diplomacy: if you’re not interested in fighting, then don’t come out swinging. Your message might be better received if you concentrated on what you see as the central issue, “How are we going to stop crazies from preaching hatred?”
Esra’a: I’ve never met a Christian who denied the Church’s long history of murder, torture, oppression and corruption. We do accept responsibility for it, but we also claim credit for the reformation. Like most children, I wet my bed when I was very young. I don’t do that anymore.
Silly question, Daniel: “do you believe that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be subjected to death, as advocated in the Bible?” Christians no longer execute, imprison, or torture people for religious crimes, so far as I know. The world would be a better place if the same could be said of the followers of every religion. I’ll be greatly surprised if anyone denies that.
I don’t claim that they do. But I do think that Muslims shouldn’t be held responsible for NOT apologizing on every single thing that certain Muslims do in the name of our faith. There are Muslims who go out of their way to do it, like many do here, and that’s great. But people are beginning to expect us to do this all the time, and even when we do, we are still being held responsible somehow.
I’m a Muslim, my whole family is Muslim, most of my friends are Muslims and not a single one of them advocates violence or justifies it or wishes for anything but peace for their non-Muslim neighbors. So when I hear everybody coming here treating us like the majority of us are monsters, yes we do feel the need to bring examples from other religions who have similar histories in terms of violence. Because we want to make a point; that you and I are not that different, and it’s no longer acceptable for people to keep treating us like we’re different because of the actions of a few.
I think not denying that terrorism happens in our name is enough. Condemning it is a must, but not everyone has the power and resources to do it publicly and actually be heard. This is partly what Ray said in his most recent article here. People think Muslims like us don’t exist because news networks want to play the tape of Osama’s latest video rather than a bunch of Muslims talking about peace and interfaith.
I have met many that deny that the Christian actions you speak of, were in fact torture, oppression and corruption. They will call them acceptable consequences of creating this ‘reformation’ that you speak of. Like many would say the consequences in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, etc. etc. are worthwhile in the face of their objectives, namely the ‘war on terror’. I do not think that war is justified or authentic, just as I do not see the justification or authenticity in the Islamic extremists call for Jihad.
I’m not quite sure of the relevance, are you saying the church helped you to stop wetting the bed? Or are you saying the fear of God is no longer with you?
So Philip, do you believe that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be subjected to death, as advocated in the Bible?
__________________________________________________________________
The law to which you are referring to is an Old Testament law which applied to the Jews under the Mosaic covenant. For Christians, this covenant was abolished in favor of the New Covenant with Christ. It is a covenant which doesn\’t kill anyone be they adulterer or homosexual. And while the Bible was used to justify a lot of terrible things, that doesn\’t mean that the Bible does justify those things, just that it has been used that way.
Esra’a: “So when I hear everybody coming here treating us like the majority of us are monsters, yes we do feel the need to bring examples from other religions who have similar histories in terms of violence.” I understand completely and often have the same feeling when there are wild generalizations about Christianity. I try to restrain myself (sometimes I even succeed!) because I don’t think it’s helpful. Better to point out that the majority are NOT monsters and provide examples that these people don’t know about because of MSM incompetency.
“People think Muslims like us don’t exist because news networks want to play the tape of Osama’s latest video rather than a bunch of Muslims talking about peace and interfaith.” Not quite: Americans know people like you exist, just not how many and how widespread. That’s the damn MSM again; thank God for the internet and websites like this one!
Tamara: you’ve met Christians who deny that Christ drove the moneychangers from the Temple? The abuses of the Church resulted in the reformation: it is not possible for a previous event to be a “consequence” of something that happened later.
I will quote you again,
This to me appears as if you are saying that the Church, (long after Christ drove the money changers from the Temple), commited abuses, murder, torture, oppression and corruption (this you claim is not denied by Christians), which eventually resulted in the reformation, (which you claim) Christians will claim credit for. Am I mistaken?
The top 100 political/religious blogs on Technorati (LGF, Malkin, JihadWatch, et al) don’t think so. They consistely and tirelessly abuse us and our religion (and we often have their troops coming here and doing the same.)
Secondly when a bunch of Americans come here to say, “why aren’t Muslims condeming this and that?” then no. I do not think it’s safe to claim that Americans know that people like us exist. I mean our entire blogsite is dedicated to condeming, admitting, and attempting to fix our mistakes. This is what we spend most of our time doing. Yet still a lot of them come here with the sole purpose of saying “you are part of a very small minority,” etc. Please read the various threads on Islam that we have written in the past, and see for yourself what was going on there, where the majority of the commenters were American.
Oh I see what you are saying Mytwocents..
The choice of word may be somewhat contradictory, but I think it is still clear what I mean. i.e. the loss of life in Iraq, both of soldiers and civillians, is a price worth paying for the democratic nation that is on its way. Or the abuses of the church can now be acceptable or at least justified, in light of the fact that we were able to start the reformation.
Gee, did I finally get through? I’ve said it over and over and over that not all Muslims are evil. You mean that some one finally heard me? Heck, I even said that Esra’a was nice and sincere, and this was after he blistered me. That’s okay, I can take it. At least I wasn’t stoned to death. I’m thankful for that. I’m glad I live in a free country where it’s a bit safer. I’ve noticed that what bothers Protestants and Muslims is clear logic or tough questions. One writer here claims that the Protestant Reformation straightened everything out. How? How can thousands of contradictions straighten things out? There are thousands of Protestant contradictory sects. In Islam there are only 73. But that, too, is pretty bad in my estimation. Contradictory sects create wars, don’t they? Haven’t you noticed? Okay. Which contradictions should we believe? Is God a Father of contradictions? Isn’t it clear that there are errors within those contradictions? If you can understand that there are errors in contradictions, and of course there are, how can those errors lead you to God Who is the Father of truth and nothing but the truth? Does God love errors? Don’t you wish you could choke me to death? If so, why? Is it because I asked all these questions that could demolish your philosophy composed of contradictions if they were answered with sound logic? May the God of Love bless you! Don’t you think I mean that?
I’m female.
Stoning is carried out in less than 3% of the Muslim world. If you’re going to insult us, at least try to be accurate.
Evangelical Christian crackheads who subscribe to the beliefs espoused by the 700 Club are idiotic and should not be taken seriously.
Tamara, could you wait for my answer instead of putting words in my mouth? Please point to anywhere I said the abuses were “acceptable” or “justified.” If the practices were acceptable and just there would have been no need for change, right?
The moneychangers is a very old example of corruption but I thought it would be a good one since it can’t be denied by anyone who believes in the Bible.
Yes, that is the historical sequence of events I am claiming. Corruption (the primary cause of the reformation) was endemic in the Christian Church. The abuses led to a reformation, which actually caused a schism. The resulting sects are now less powerful, less violent, and properly ashamed of their bloody history.
Obviously, that’s the really short version; there were also economic and political factors and the reformation was more concerned with corruption and internal oppression than with religious wars and violence, but I don’t want to divert the discussion to 16th century European Christianity. Can I just say that Christianity has a long and messy history but — like a small boy who once wet his bed — has now grown and doesn’t do that anymore?
And none of this has anything to do with the war in Iraq. I was addressing the question of whether it’s appropriate to invoke your opponent’s ancient history as a defense against criticisms based on current events.
Yes, Esra’a, I realize that “the majority of the commenters were American,” but that doesn’t mean the majority of Americans agree with the commenters. Ray said once (speaking from professional experience) that the people who agree with you are much less likely to write in and say so than the ones who disagree. Your point about the blogs on Technorati carries a lot more weight: you could be right, I could be wrong. I wonder if there’s ever been a good survey of Americans on that particular point: American awareness of the struggle of Muslims against extremism?
If you don’t mind my asking, do your website statistics show how much traffic MEY gets from the US?
Philip,
You accuse us of failing to answer your profound questions, yet you are unable to answer but the most modest of questions. You are a fanatic, and a fanatic of a catholocism that a Catholic would be ashamed to be associated with. You and the blessings of your God of Love are becoming boring.
Heh, heh. Right on, Daniel!
Mytwocents,
I was not attempting to put words in your mouth, after having posted my response, I was rereading things, and realised why it may not have been clear. I do appologise for seeming to do otherwise. I feel to try to clarify ourselves to each other would be an intrusion on this post. I would appreciate if you would allow me to withdraw that part of my comment, and allow me then to respond to the point you were initially trying to make.
I would say Yes it is appropriate. We must be able to understand the processes of religious, political, cultural, social and economic development and change. Of which, each religion, society and culture must go through. The Arab world as we know it today, has been in existance for a very short time, and was created, not by the Arab people, but was forced upon them by foreign forces. It takes time, tragedy and thought to get us where we need to be, as human beings, nations, societies, cultures and religions.
If you cannot see our similarities in light of our similar historical development and change(regardless of wether or not they are parallelly linked in time), then we are doomed in failure.
Well, well, well, I have finally found someone that I can apologize to. Dear Esra’a, I’m sorry, I thought you were a “he.” I’m not familiar with Arabic. Thanks for the info. What are the 3% of the Muslim countries that stone people, mostly women, to death? I want to make sure I avoid those countries. And don’t you go there either. It pains me when a poor woman is stoned to death. I don’t think it’s fair for men to do those horrible things. I have not laid a hand on a woman since I was thirteen. I promised myself that I would never hit a woman again since that age, and I never have. And no, I would not ever hit a wife, not even “lightly.” I think that is also cruel and unfair. If I saw a man hitting a woman, things would go bad for him. I hate it when grown men take advantage of women and children. I don’t think that a husband hitting his wife comes from God. If it doesn’t come from an imperfect man like me, how can it come from a perfect God? May the God of Love bless you. My goal is not to insult, but to present the truth even it hurts. I still believe you are nice and sincere.
About 55%
Thanks, Esra’a: do you know how many people (”visitors”) that is?
Yes, Tamara, I do see “our similar historical development and change,” but sometimes the historical context of the other side is irrelevant to the current discussion. For example:
David: “Hey, Fred, you’ve got a spot on your shirt.”
Fred: “Oh, yeah!?! Well, three years ago YOU had a spot on YOUR shirt!”
David’s laundry history isn’t really relevant to the issue of Fred’s stained shirt. Some other time, though, I would like to discuss the historical similarities of development.
And I feel the same way about fake wannabe mullahs who espouse support for the Taliban while living comfortably in the West.
Dear Tamara, where are your “modest questions”? Ask and I’ll try to answer them? I have no fear of answering questions if I can.
Mytwocents,
I do not think that is in any way an acceptable comparison. I was talking about deep rooted processes of political, cultural, religious and social change, that have been evident throughout history. If you can not see the difference, there is little to discuss in the future.
Philip,
I have asked you a number of questions, do you know anything of the esoteric aspects of the three Abrahamic religions? Why do you feel the need to have an enemy? There are others, you may check if you so desire.
Dear Tamara, You still don’t understand me, do you?. Are you my enemy? Aren’t you nice? If you’re nice, how can you be my enemy? I do have enemies, and aren’t they also your enemies? I’m against, for example, those crazies that are mutilating the sex organs of little girls. Aren’t they also your enemies? If they are, what can we do together to save future little girls from getting mutilated? I don’t think it’s fair for men to do what they’re doing. I’m sure you can see that it is men who take advantage of females. Why don’t men believe that they themselves should have their sexual organs mutilated? Does that mutilation come from the God of Love? The God of Love gifts little girls with a clitoris. Do you honestly believe that the same God of Love wants it cut off? Notice that it is men who are allowed to beat their wives. Do you think that comes from a God of Love? I don’t. Why aren’t women allowed to beat their husbands for disobedience or some other reason? Why should it be the other way around? Notice that men are allowed, according to their religion, to have four wives. I once knew one that had nine wives. Is that fair? Does this actually come from a God of Justice and Love? How can I say this without hurting your feelings? I don’t want to hurt women’s feelings, especially women. I simply don’t believe that the above injustices came from God. And if you believe the way I do, what can we do to save women from getting an unjust beating, or save little girls from haveing their clitoris cut off? God is Just. What Muhammad had to say doesn’t follow if it’s true that God is a God of Love and Justice. Here is my way of thinking: If God gifted a little girl with a clitoris, why would he want a man or woman to cut it off? Some men say that it pleases Allah. If it’s true, then Allah isn’t the God of Justice and Love. I’m sorry, but the first thought that comes to my mind is that Allah must be someone else. To my way of thinking, something is askew. Tamara, if you think the way I do, can we join together to overturn these injustices? How can we save wives from receiving a beating from their husbands? How can we save little girls standing in line to have their clitoris cut away? Don’t you have feelings for them? I do. How can we help women so that they can have the same equal rights as men? Why should men have more rights? If you want the above injustices overturned, you would be very surprised to see how many men would come to your defense. Good men are not against you especially if you are nice, and I believe you are nice and sincere. In my country, at least around here, if a man strikes a woman even lightly, that man immediately gets at least 30 days in the slammer. And that’s the way it should be. Throughout history men have taken advantage of women for one reason or another. I think we should put a stop to these things. If you think that your philosophy wants the injustices against women to continue, there is nothing I can do. May the God of Love bless you, and your wholesome endeavors.
So tell me Philip, where do we find these bad people? How do we distinguish them from others? And, practically, how can we go about finding them and stopping them?
I know what you’re talking about and it’s not the point. If you can’t see that crimes committed by Christianity do not make it legitimate for other religions to commit the same crimes then there really is little to discuss in the future.
Why individuals like Ed Hussain, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Taji Mustafa are greeted with an adulation that is both undeserved and unwarranted? Persons such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali reinforce stereotypes and fuels the isolationism she claims to oppose.
Your review of Ayaan Hirsi Aly’s books deals well with the issue. Here is more in support of your arguement:
“Only One Side of the Story” is the title of an article in the Newsweek. One of Europe’s foremost critics of Islam is drawing attention stateside with her controversial new memoir, ‘Infidel.’ But how fair is the book? asks the magazine.
Newsweek, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17204802/site/newsweek/from/ET/
In a review of her earlier book The Caged Virgin published by TLS [http://www.powells.com/review/2007_02_11.html] Maria Golia remarked:
Although it is admittedly hard to footnote sprawling generalizations, Hirsi Ali cites her references infrequently. A favoured source, however, is David Pryce-Jones, Senior Editor of the National Review, an influential publication in US neoconservative circles. Hirsi Ali echoes Pryce-Jones and the like-minded Bernard Lewis in her discussion of “the mental world of Islam”, a dark planet governed by “tribal values” essentially at odds with those of the enlightened West. In Hirsi Ali’s mental world, the link between Islam and violence is clear.”
The very title of her book reinforces stereotypes while providing no new information about the evolving status of Muslim women in their own and adopted countries. It overlooks Muslim women’s participation in economies, elections and government. Likewise, in discounting the contributions of fruitfully integrated first-generation Muslims and immigrants to their societies, Hirsi Ali fuels the isolationism she claims to oppose.
“I do not despise Islam”, she says, without offering a shred of evidence to the contrary. While acknowledging that her criticism has been called “harsh, offensive and harmful”, Hirsi Ali is undeterred. Although Hirsi Ali states that it was not her intention to provide Islamophobes with ammunition, this is exactly what her one-dimensional portrayal of Islam does.
http://www.powells.com/review/2007_02_11.html
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,,2005267,00.html
Mytwocents,
I did not say it legitimises their actions. It just has to be understood in relation to development. I do not support what these crazy individuals are doing, in the name of their ‘apparent’ religion.
But simply ‘bashing’ Muslims will achieve nothing, except fueling more hate and violence. And attacking (militarily) Muslim countries, will not provide the people, who desire change, with an opportunity to work towards that change. Instead they will be left either dead, homeless, familyless and having to pick up all the pieces once again.
Therefore, it is not the point to just ‘understand’ the current stages of development in the Arab/Muslim world, in light of the West’s historical development. It is instead to use this understanding to work towards much needed change. The environment in many Arab countries is already not ideal for change, but the people are trying, and all the foreign attacks (of every form) are only providing the worst situation/envirnment from which to work from.
So, Tamara, when someone makes a reasoned and legitimate criticism of the social status of women in a present day Islamic nation it is appropriate to divert the discussion with a historical diatribe about Christianity? Because we just can’t discuss the flogging of women protesting peacefully for equal rights in the ME without first considering Christianity’s offenses from a century or more ago?
My objection is that people use criticisms of Christianity and the West to divert, distract, or otherwise cut off debate about Islam and the ME. It happens very frequently here, have you noticed?
If you can point to the place I did that I will most certainly apologize.
Mytwocents,
I was not accusing you of saying anything against Islam, I was speaking in general terms. I haven’t re-read all your comments, but I am not under the impression you have ‘bashed’ Islam.
I understand your objection. I encourage valid criticism, especially of backward and callous thinking, which is present among all religions and nations, even at this current time. The thing is, there isnt much to debate, most governments are corrupt and there are a bunch of crazy mother fuckers trying to bring the world to their knees. I think we should discuss what the hell we are supposed to do instead of wasting our time ‘debating’ who is right and who is wrong. The state of the world is wrong, most things require radical change. My objection is of people who divert, distract, or otherwise cut off discussion about WHAT WE CAN DO.
“My objection is of people who divert, distract, or otherwise cut off discussion about WHAT WE CAN DO.”
I am with you 100%
[...] days ago I read Esra’s article on bashing Islam and found it helpful to bring out my new viewpoint about religion related [...]
I think you are quite right Ezra. All the time I hear the question, “Where are the moderate Muslims.” I point out that moderate Muslims don’t make news. When some Palestinians cheered in the streets after 9-11, that was covered. When all Palestinian children joined in prayer in their classrooms for the victims of 9-11, that was not covered.
Dear Susan Maneck, the Palestinian children that you mention were probably Catholic Palestinians. Yes, there are many Palestinians who are Catholic. I worked in a Catholic school, and I know that when there was a catastrophy, all Catholics immediately began to pray. Every day, Catholics pray in churches for world peace. Yes, every day!! I go to mass every day. Just out a few days ago: According to undercover work, three-fourths of the Muslim Imams in the United States preach hatred in their mosques. If I recall correctly, it was in the drudgereport.com.
And this is for the poor dear nice Muslims: I’m sorry, but you cannot reform Islam anymore than Protestants can reform Christianity. Notice that the more the Protestants try to reform Christianity, the more they splinter. That’s because they are not protected by the Holy Spirit in such a way that they cannot make mistakes. Isn’t it obvious? There are now about thirty thousand Protestant contradictory “Christian” sects.
In Islam, there are at least seventy three contradictory Muslim sects. Unfortunately they war against each other as well as against others of other faiths. Now, we all know that the God of Love doesn’t contradict Himself. So naturally all those contradictions in Protestantism and Islam do not come from God. So naturally some of those contradictions are errors, and errors cannot lead you to heaven. Only one religion remains constant in faith and morals, be careful I said “faith and morals.” That church is the Holy Catholic Church which is infallible in Faith and Morals, the two ingredients that are necessary for salvation. Again, be careful, I said “faith and morals.” The Holy Catholic Church isn’t infallible in astronomy, math, et cetera.
My dear Muslim friends, just because some of you are very good, doesn’t mean that all contradictions in Islam are good. It also doesn’t mean that Muhammad was good. Many of you are far better than Muhammad. You’ll have to admit that. Did you hear me? You must admit that many Muslims are far, far holier than Muhammad. As a Catholic, I cannot claim that I’m better than Jesus. Jesus is and was far better than anyone, yes, including myself. However, I do try to imitate Jesus. Do you Muslims try to imitate Muhammad? Thank Almighty God that not all of you try to imitate Muhammad. It’s sad when Muslims do imitate Muhammad. That’s why we have problems, big problems, all over the world. May God Almighty bless all who read this. Of course this old man loves you more than you could ever imagine. Good-bye for now.
Philip,
I’m well aware that there are Christian Palestinians. Prior to the rise of Hamas it was the predominantly Christian wing of the the PLO (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) which was the most radical. I had a friend who was attending a meeting of Palestinian bishops when Sadam Hussein fired scud missles into Israel. Those bishops toasted to his health!
As to whether the school in which prayers were said for the victim of 9-11, my understanding was that this was done in all the schools sponsored by the PNA, not a single parochial school.
You may be right, that moderates cannot reform Islam anymore than Protestants reformed Christianity. Christianity has fragmented, Islam has fragmented. In that case, one should look for the religion which *can* meet the needs of our present age and unify humanity. That’s not going to be the Catholic church under a man like Ratzinger. The idea that the church which launched the Crusades and was responsible for the Inquisition cannot make mistakes or is morally superior to Islam stretches credibility. I don’t see why these contradictions are any easier to live with than the ones Muslims have to wrestle with.
As for what is necessary for salvation, I can only qoute the Muslim poetess Rabi’a,
“If I love Thee in fear of hell
May I burn in hell
If I love Thee in hope of heaven
Deny me heaven
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake
Deny me not the Beauty of Thy Face.”
We should be trying to save the world, not ourselves. That is one thing Islam has over Christianity. It cares more about community than individual salvation. If Muhammad fought rather than died on the cross it was because he had a community to protect.
Meredith wrote:
“If Muslims would massively protest the violence and demand that the heads of all eight schools of fiqh disavow violent jihad, there would be **NO** so-called right-wing blogs at all.”
Meredith, figh schools have no heads, but there are plenty of ‘ulama who have done disavowed terrorism as un-Islamic. Most hold that in the absence of a legitimate caliph there can be no jihad. There hasn’t been a caliph since 1921. As for al-Qaeda’s activities in Iraq, let’s not forget there was no al-Qaeda there before the US occupation.
I don’t know how many of you have read the book *Good Muslim, Bad Muslim* but I highly recommend it.
Dear Susan Maneck, The Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church has never sanctioned abuse. Does that mean there isn’t abuse in the Catholic Church? Of course there is abuse. Its members are not impeccable. You will always have some of its members committing abuses. For example, not too many years ago I led an army that went against a huge satanic cult, 6,000 satanists, strong. My army, mostly Catholic, destroyed these satanists that were kidnapping little children every day, raping them, then murdering them, and then, yes, drinking their blood. Although my army went on a holy mission, sometimes some of the soldiers abused and committed things that weren’t professional. Of course I got on their case for this. The American armies are sometimes on a justifiable mission, but sometimes some of the soldiers will commit things that aren’t always professional. Abu Graib comes to mind.
But this is something that really bothers me: Why is it that especially liberals will condemn vociferously the armies that are doing something wholesome, but not condemn the opposing satanic armies that are committing unspeakable crimes? If liberals would find out what I and my army did, they would scream bloody murder, but they wouldn’t say one word about the satanists, who were kidnapping little children, raping them, and then drinking their blood. Why? Why? That is one reason I will not report when this war took place, nor where it took place. I will say that it wasn’t too many years ago.
What some of my soldiers did pales compared to what the satanists were doing. Yet we would be condemned, and not one peep would be said about the satanists. What my soldiers did was no more than what you might see at college hazings. At Abu Graib, did the American soldiers draw blood? No! Did they break bones? No! Did they humiliate? Yes. That’s all, and the whole world condemns the Americans, and nothing is said about the Muslims who slit throats every day, murder every day, maim, rape, have their honor killings, suicide bombers, et cetera, et cetera. How vociferously does the main stream media condemn theses Muslim atrocities? It doesn’t. Instead, they condemn the college hazing that went on at Abu Graib. Why is it that way?
In the beginning, I said that Catholic members abuse, but is it sanctioned by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church? No. You mention the Crusades. Okay, but why didn’t you mention what took place before the Crusades? Was it convenient for you not to mention what took place before the Crusades? Did you know that Turkey, Iran, Irag, and other Middle Eastern countries were once Christian? Were you aware that Muslims swept across these countries, killing, maiming, raping, looting, and enslaving some Christians? Why didn’t you mention that? That’s what led to the Crusades. Personally, if some one came into my house, raped my kids, and drove me away, I believe I would have the perfect right to come back with an army and kill the intruders, and recover my home. Of course liberals would disagree. That’s the way it was before the Crusades. But because Muslims never rest, like Satan, they continue to attack, attack, attack. At the time of the Crusades, it was decided that Christians had a perfect right to reclaim their lands. Because there is no end to Muslim attacks, I would agree with the Crusaders. However, I would not agree with their abuses anymore than I would agree with the abuses perpetrated by my army, nor would I agree with the abuses at Abu Graib. Although these abuses were far less deleterious than the atrocities committed by the opposing evil forces, I would not lower myself even a tiny bit to the level of the opposing satanic forces.
About the Spainsh Inquisition: Were there any abuses there? Yes. Are abuses sanctioned by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church? No. It was well meaning in the beginning because Muslims and some Jews were trying to destroy the Catholic Church. Isn’t it still that way especially coming from the forces of the Muslim front? Yes, very much so. However, during the Spanish Inquisition, again, Satan reared his head, some Cathoic members unfortunately abused. At least, I’m glad that the Inquisition was confined mostly in Spain. I will still maintain that the Holy Catholic Church is infallible in its magisterium, but not its members.
Philip wrote:
“The Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church has never sanctioned abuse.”
Dear Philip,
Are you saying that Catholic Church never called for the Inquistion or sanctioned it? ”
You wrote:
“For example, not too many years ago I led an army that went against a huge satanic cult, 6,000 satanists, strong. My army, mostly Catholic, destroyed these satanists that were kidnapping little children every day, raping them, then murdering them, and then, yes, drinking their blood. But this is something that really bothers me: Why is it that especially liberals will condemn vociferously the armies that are doing something wholesome, but not condemn the opposing satanic armies that are committing unspeakable crimes? If liberals would find out what I and my army did, they would scream bloody murder, but they wouldn’t say one word about the satanists, who were kidnapping little children, raping them, and then drinking their blood. Why? Why? That is one reason I will not report when this war took place, nor where it took place. I will say that it wasn’t too many years ago.”
What this sounds like is the blood libels which Christians have said about Jews for centuries. But I note from postings you made elsewhere on the net, that it is Muslims and not Jews that you regard as satanic. This smells very much like ethnic violence not a satanic cult, but if you call them satanic and associate them with blood libel then you can justify doing whatever you wish to them. So yes, I become very suspicous of people who talk this way. No one acts more sanatically than those who imagine they are fighting demons innstead of human beings.
You wrote:
“Okay, but why didn’t you mention what took place before the Crusades? Was it convenient for you not to mention what took place before the Crusades? Did you know that Turkey, Iran, Irag, and other Middle Eastern countries were once Christian?”
Me:
Turkey and Syria were once Christian. Iran and Iraq never were. Before the rise of Islam those countries were part of the Sasanian Empire and predominantly Zoroastrian.
You wrote:
” Were you aware that Muslims swept across these countries, killing, maiming, raping, looting, and enslaving some Christians? Why didn’t you mention that? That’s what led to the Crusades.”
Me:
Uh, no. Only in the case of Anatolia (Turkey) did the Muslim invasions have anything to do with the Crusades. The initial Arab invations (which included Muslims and Christians) had taken place some five centuries earlier. The Seljuk incursions into Anatolia *was* one of the factors that precipitated the Crusades but the Seljuks conquered Arab lands as well so it was not really a question of “Muslim” invasions. However, the Byzantine Emperor did ask the Pope for assistance in regaining control of Anatolia. The Pope responded by calling for the Crusades the Crusaders ignored Anatolia entirely and instead headed straight for Jerusalem.
“Personally, if some one came into my house, raped my kids, and drove me away, I believe I would have the perfect right to come back with an army and kill the intruders, and recover my home.”
First off, the Middle East was never the home of medieval Europeans who fought in the Crusades. Neither they or their ancestors had ever lived there. Second, even if they were, are you trying to tell me that a Native American has the right to kill me and take my home because of what my ancestors did this to his ancestors hundreds of years ago? I don’t think so!
You wrote:
” About the Spainsh Inquisition: Were there any abuses there? Yes. Are abuses sanctioned by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?”
Are you telling me that the church did not approve of the use of torture in the Inquistion? I’d like to see some documentation for this.
You wrote:
” No. It was well meaning in the beginning because Muslims and some Jews were trying to destroy the Catholic Church.”
What you really mean is that they were forcibly converted and some of them tried to practice their own religion secretly.
And aren’t you forgetting that the Inquisition was used against Protestants as well? Before that, it was used against Cathars.
You wrote:
“However, during the Spanish Inquisition, again, Satan reared his head, some Cathoic members unfortunately abused.”
Me:
As I said, people who demonize others tend to do that. I’m reminded of a talk Abdu’l-Baha gave in America:
“Religionists have considered the world of humanity as two trees: one divine and merciful, the other satanic; they themselves the branches, leaves and fruit of the divine tree and all others who differ from them in belief the product of the tree which is satanic. Therefore, sedition and warfare, bloodshed and strife have been continuous among them. The greatest cause of human alienation has been religion because each party has considered the belief of the other as anathema and deprived of the mercy of God.
The teachings specialized in Bahá’u’lláh are addressed to humanity. He says, “Ye are all the leaves of one tree.” He does not say, “Ye are the leaves of two trees: one divine, the other satanic.” He has declared that each individual member of the human family is a leaf or branch upon the Adamic tree; that all are sheltered beneath the protecting mercy and providence of God; that all are the children of God, fruit upon the one tree of His love. God is equally compassionate and kind to all the leaves, branches and fruit of this tree. Therefore, there is no satanic tree whatever—Satan being a product of human minds and of instinctive human tendencies toward error. God alone is Creator, and all are creatures of His might. Therefore, we must love mankind as His creatures, realizing that all are growing upon the tree of His mercy, servants of His omnipotent will and manifestations of His good pleasure. ”
Until we all stop demonizing one another there can be no peace.
“
The majority of terrorists in the world are Anglo-American types. Thats a fact, deal with it! Whats up with all these ridiculous hater babbling nonsense. Meredith is obviously off her medication.
How many Americans here will condemn the hundreds of thousands of American terrorists in Iraq? The silence is deafening.
Dear John,
Plenty of Americans are prepared to admit that the US invasion of Iraq was an act of aggression. To call it terrorism is another matter. We need to decide what we mean by terrorism. I define terrorism as the deliberate targeting of non-combatants in order to instill fear. That is certainly not what hundreds of thousands of American troops intend to do in Iraq, though I don’t doubt there have been individual acts that would qualify.
I do think that the terrorism which afflicts the world today was started in the West and has only recently spread to the Islamic world. It grows out of two Western concepts 1)the right to rebel 2) the concept of total war which developed during the World Wars which came to regard civilians as legitimate military targets.
warmest, Susan
I hate break it to you Susan, but American troops in Iraq are indeed terrorists, just ask any Iraqi. Yes, these are the same guys that throw puppies off of cliffs, shoot indiscriminately into crowds, sodomize and force broomsticks into prisoners, rape woman, kick down doors of people’s homes, put their feet on top of people’s heads, drive tanks over cars, shoot wounded enemy soldiers, so on and so on. Thats terrorism.
Its been 5 years and 1.1 million Iraqis are dead so theres no need to hide behind semantics, and obscure the stark reality that Americans simply don’t care. Its called American exceptionalism, and I’m sick and tired of it. Its the same paranoid nonsense we hear from yanks.
I can understand why so many Americans have become atheists…its too scary for them to think of accountability for their actions. Rest assured, a just and real God will make them burn for their crimes.
“John,” if that is indeed your real name,
You really shouldn’t speak for all Iraqis. Many would agree with you, but many also have different perspectives, like these guys for example.
American marines (U.S forces in general) do not represent American views or American people. Please distinguish between a government and an entire nation, many of whom are also against the war and have protested it on many occasions.
John,
I don’t doubt atrocities have been committed. That doesn’t make hundreds of thousands of American troops terrorists. Personally, I thought invading Iraq was wrong. I still think so. But I also believe if we were to suddenly get up and leave the result would be genocide. And genocide is worse than war, worse than terrorism.
As for Americans becoming atheists, in fact Americans are the more religious than any other developed nation. Over 80% of the population believes in God.
Susan
To add, Islam is the fastest growing religion within the country (according to Clinton anyways.)
To add, Islam is the fastest growing religion within the country (according to Clinton anyways.)
Dear Ezra,
Not just Clinton. There are currently more Muslims in America than Presbyterians or Anglicans. 44% of Americans have changed their religion. It is a good thing we don’t have apostacy laws.
warmest, Susan
Susan Mack wrote,“But I also believe if we were to suddenly get up and leave the result would be genocide. And genocide is worse than war, worse than terrorism.
So placing sanctions that hurt the people more than its leader is not genocide? Bombing the infrastructure, water supply, and schools is not genocide?
Let’s not forget that it was the United States that helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities. The Iraqi people are scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy.
Since the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq was not to help the Iraqi people, if the United States leaves Iraq, it will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.
Susan wrote, “I define terrorism as the deliberate targeting of non-combatants in order to instill fear.”
What about when the United States provides weapons, training, and/or strategic advice to both sides of a conflict, is that terrorism?
The U.S. did this in the Iran-Iraq war and the Congo.
Do you think it was alright that the United States killed 3 to 5 million people in Vietnam and Cambodia, just because it did it in the name of fighting Communism?
How many does people the United States government have to kill before it is considered a war crime and high level government official are put on trial for their actions?
Ignorance and gullibility reigns. Esra, I speak for a hell of lot more Iraqis then the charlatans running the “Iraq the model” blog. If you want to learn who really runs that pathetic neocon site, read this :
http://antiwar.com/blog/?p=1659
Susan, what the US has done to Iraq since 1991 is GENCODE, with over 2.5 million dead from a combination of sanctions and the 2003 invasion and its aftermath. Americans soldiers are TERRORISTS, thats a fact and no amount of pathetic excuses by you and other Americans will change that. The Iraqi people want you out of their country, but you won’t leave and thats why they’re killing your precious war criminals. Iraq is the seat of the oldest civilization on earth. They invented government. They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.
America is the most religious country in the western hemisphere, but recent figures suggest that a significant shift has been made in the direction of agnosticism and atheism.
Bravo, Randal for speaking the truth at a time when lies are the standard.
Where did I suggest that what the US did was right, either in Vietnam, Cambodia or Iraq? It doesn’t make it terrorism, it doesn’t make it enocide. (Whether war crimes have been committed is an entirely different question.) Look what happened in Indochina when the US created a mess and then threw up its hands and left. Do we want Iraq to end up like Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge?
Give me a scenario for US withdrawal that doesn’t end in masscres for one Iraqi faction or another? Because as it is, more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.
Susan is repeating the old lie common amongst apologists for the war that its just Iraqis killing each other while the invaders are innocently stuck in the middle. Let me refresh your memory : There were no death squads in Iraq prior to the invasion, where did they come from? Who blew up the shia shrine 2006? Iraqis were not killing each other UNTIL after the invasion. How interesting is that? Anybody who has read a history book knows occupation powers bear direct responsibility for what happens under their watch. Go read the Lancet report on Iraqi casualties.
Iraq is the seat of the oldest civilization on earth. They invented government. They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave. The occupation is simply amplifying the natural differences that you will find in any country, and there has never been a history of civil war in Iraq. Removing the troops from Iraq will seal the disastrous failure of the neo-cons. So, staying in Iraq, and pretending to prevent a civil war will give them a little (fat) chance at redeeming themselves. They created the problem, and now are offering to solve it. Same crap that went into the invasion. They build up Saddam into a monster threatening to take over the world, and then in search of phony glory, went in and destroyed the Iraqi society, expecting to earn the honor of saving the world. This is like those firemen who committed arson in hopes of being called to put out the fires, and become heroes.
Not if you’re not Iraqi yourself.
John wrote:
“The Iraqi people want you out of their country, but you won’t leave and thats why they’re killing your precious war criminals.”
Except they are killing more Iraqis than Americans.
“Susan is repeating the old lie common amongst apologists for the war that its just Iraqis killing each other while the invaders are innocently stuck in the middle.”
Did I say we were innocent? We are stuck in the middle because we put ourselves there, not because we are innocent. That doesn’t change the fact that removing ourselves without a proper infrastructure in place could have catastrophic results.
“They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.”
Prove it. Stop killing one another. It is understandable that Iraqis would kill a foreign invader but internecine slaughter is another thing. Compared to Vietnam, American casualties in Iraq have been rather light. Most of the violence has been Iraqis killing Iraqis.
“Iraqis were not killing each other UNTIL after the invasion.”
I heard tell that Saddam Hussein killed more than a few people.;-} But yes, it was the American destruction of the Iraqi government which caused the current chaos.
“Anybody who has read a history book knows occupation powers bear direct responsibility for what happens under their watch.”
They are also responsible for what happens after they leave, which is my point.
Randall asks:
“What about when the United States provides weapons, training, and/or strategic advice to both sides of a conflict, is that terrorism?”
No, it is not terrorism. What I’m trying to tell you is that not every immoral and dastardly deed is an act of terrorism. And yes, the United States has done this numerous times. We now know for instance, that the United States deliberately released false intel to the Russians that we were about to intervene in Afghanistan to destroy the communist government which led to Russia’s invasion of that country. We did it because we knew it would mire them down in their own Vietnam. The cost to Afghanistan itself wasn’t even considered. It was a terrible thing to do, but it wasn’t terrorism. In any case, we now have two Vietnams on our hands. What goes around, comes around.
Susan Maneck wrote,“We now know for instance, that the United States deliberately released false intel to the Russians that we were about to intervene in Afghanistan to destroy the communist government which led to Russia’s invasion of that country. We did it because we knew it would mire them down in their own Vietnam.”
What do you mean “released false intel to the Russians?” THe U.S. didn’t release any intel to the Russians, it was actually involved in funding and training Muslim extremists in overthrowing the Afghani regime. See this interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
The United States could have chosen pro-democracy (instead of Muslim extremist) groups to work with, but doing this would mean that Afghanistan would not be a puppet state, the way Saudia Arabia is. An unoccupied democratic Afghanistan would do what’s best for its own people not what’s best for the United States.
You don’t think this is terrorism? Do you think any American high level government officials should be put on trial or this should be done only to leaders of small economically/militarily weak governmnets?
“What do you mean “released false intel to the Russians?” THe U.S. didn’t release any intel to the Russians, it was actually involved in funding and training Muslim extremists in overthrowing the Afghani regime.”
There was some aid at that point which was given to opponents of the communist regime. Not enough to overthrow the government, just enough to entice the Soviets into intervening. And it wasn’t given to Muslim extremists at that point. That occurred later, after the Russian invasion, when all aid had to go through Zia’l-Haqq in Pakistan. He decided which groups would receive the Aid and he was the one who favored the extremists. That is not to say it wasn’t our responsibility.
“You don’t think this is terrorism?”
No, I just think it’s wrong.
“Do you think any American high level government officials should be put on trial or this should be done only to leaders of small economically/militarily weak governmnets?”
Leaders of government, whether big or small aren’t usually put on trial for terrorism, they are usually tried for war crimes which as I said is another thing entirely. Has the US ever committed acts of terrorism? Yes. When they blew up a Shi’ite mosque in Lebanon during Friday prayers a couple of decades ago in reprisal for the Hizbullahi suicide bombing of a US Marine Base, that was an act of terrorism because a mosque is a civilian target. The Hizbullahi attack on the Marine base was not an act of terrorism because Marine bases are military targets. Do you see the difference? It doesn’t necessarily make one act more right or wrong than the other.
Terrorism is one particular type of violent act and it may not be the worst one.
Susan Maneck wrote to John, “I heard tell that Saddam Hussein killed more than a few people.;-}
Did you hear about about how the United States had helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities?
Susan Maneck wrote, “Give me a scenario for US withdrawal that doesn’t end in masscres for one Iraqi faction or another? Because as it is, more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.”
You have no proof that more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis. This is just repeated over and over again in the mainstream media, so that the United States does not have to take its responsiblity for the genocide in Iraq.
What needs to be done is an announcement of what was the actually reason that the Pres. Bush Administration decided to invade Iraq. Those who benefited most from the invasion need to be watched because even if the troops are withdrawn, elements of U.S. government and corporations will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.
Susan Maneck wrote to John (who wrote “They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.”)
“Prove it. Stop killing one another. It is understandable that Iraqis would kill a foreign invader but internecine slaughter is another thing. Compared to Vietnam, American casualties in Iraq have been rather light. Most of the violence has been Iraqis killing Iraqis.”
Susan remember the chaos that ensued after Hurrican Katrina? But this was a natural disaster that occurred in an unoccupied wealthy country.
Lets review what the United States, Britain and their allies have done in this second invasion of Iraq, a country already devastated by a first invasion and sanctions. They
#1) bombed the country and destroyed its infrastructure
#2) rounds up thousands of Iraqis and jails them without justification
#3) makes decisions when elections are to take place and whether the results are valid
#4) benefit more from reconstruction projects than the Iraqis
#5)can break into jails to release prisoners against the Iraqi’s governments wishes. (Remember when two British men where caught disguised as Arabs carrying explosives and weapons in their car? Their fellow British soldiers broke into the jail they were in and helped them to escape) see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20051015&articleId=1089
If a foreign power did to the United States what has been done to Iraq, there would be race and religious wars throughout the land and no child, woman or man would be safe in America
“Did you hear about about how the United States had helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities?”
Randall,
My recollection is that the the US helped the Ba’ath part launch a coup in 1963 but Saddam was not that high up in the party at the time. He was just a thug. His rise to power had more to do with Saddam’s ability to manipulate General Ahmed Bakr. Yes, the US supported Saddam in his invasion of Iran which was every bit as much an act of aggression as his invasion of Kuwait.
You wrote: “You have no proof that more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.”
The best figures I’ve seen is that Americans are responsible for 37% of the civilian deaths. My figures come from the Iraqi Body Count Project which is anti-war. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
“What needs to be done is an announcement of what was the actually reason that the Pres. Bush Administration decided to invade Iraq. Those who benefited most from the invasion need to be watched because even if the troops are withdrawn, elements of U.S. government and corporations will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.”
The actual reason may not be as conspiratorial as you think. I think Bush just wanted revenge for Saddam’s attempt on his father’s life. Afterwards he uses it to benefit his cronies, it’s true. It is highly unlikely they will remain in Iraq after US withdrawal. It has been much too dangerous for them as it is. Over a thousand contractors have been killed.
“If a foreign power did to the United States what has been done to Iraq, there would be race and religious wars throughout the land and no child, woman or man would be safe in America”
I don’t doubt for a second that this is true, in fact that is my point. When you destroy a country’s infrastructure you destroy all law and order with it. The fact that Hammurabi’s Code was one of the first casaulties of the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure symbolizes a great deal. And as in the case of Iraq if such damage was done to America the violence would only escalate once the foreign power left. So the question remains, how do we leave Iraq without that happening?
Sorry Esra’a, but you’re not an Iraqi either, so why do you choose to believe American war propaganda? The pro-occupation blog you pointed to was exposed years ago as fraud run by collaborators on the payroll. If you actually think Iraqis, or any other people like being occupied, you’re living in a fools paradise. According to survery after surver, Iraqis want Americans out, and over 80% support attacks on American occupation terrorists. Welcome to the real world.
Susan unfortunately continues to repeat American war lies, its a fine example of a people who are throughly brainwashed. Notice how she didn’t answer my questions about Iraq before. Most Iraqis have been killed by American terrorists, and the death squads they armed and let loose on the Iraqi people for supporting the resistance. Do some research if you have the courage. You can make all the feeble excuses and lies you want…but it wont wash the blood that is on your hands.
You had better hop there is no God, otherwise hell will be one heck of a crowded place.
Susan Maneck wrote” There was some aid at that point which was given to opponents of the communist regime. Not enough to overthrow the government, just enough to entice the Soviets into intervening. And it wasn’t given to Muslim extremists at that point. That occurred later, after the Russian invasion, when all aid had to go through Zia’l-Haqq in Pakistan. He decided which groups would receive the Aid and he was the one who favored the extremists. That is not to say it wasn’t our responsibility.”
In the link I gave about the Zbigniew Brzezinski it says “The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention.”
Susan Maneck wrote ”My recollection is that the the US helped the Ba’ath part launch a coup in 1963 but Saddam was not that high up in the party at the time. He was just a thug. His rise to power had more to do with Saddam’s ability to manipulate General Ahmed Bakr. Yes, the US supported Saddam in his invasion of Iran which was every bit as much an act of aggression as his invasion of Kuwait.”
The CIA took part in the 1963 assignation of Abdul Karim Kassim, who had nationalized Iraqi oil companies.. Saddam Hussein became head of Iraq’s secret service and collaborated with the CIA to massacre thousands of Iraqis who disagreed with the new regime. Also, the U.S. puppet Saddam Hussein got the okay from the United States before he invaded Kuwait.
By the way, the United States provided weapons and false strategic advice to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war. see http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292
Susan Maneck, wrote, “The best figures I’ve seen is that Americans are responsible for 37% of the civilian deaths. My figures come from the Iraqi Body Count Project which is anti-war.”
The sources that Iraqi Body Count uses do not have the will, money, time or resources to investigate the causes of all the deaths in Iraq. Many of the people on the political left like to pretend that what is going on in Iraq is just a civil war so that they do not have to bear the responsibility have allowing a genocide in Iraq to occur.
Susan Maneck wrote,” The actual reason may not be as conspiratorial as you think. I think Bush just wanted revenge for Saddam’s attempt on his father’s life. Afterwards he uses it to benefit his cronies, it’s true.”
The Kuwaitis are the source of this claim of an attempt on Father Bush’s life. The same ones who told us that Saddam’s army was pulling babies out of incubators and throwing them on the floor. Even if it were true that Saddam attempted to assassinate Bush, I hardly think it justifies the murder of over a million of Iraqis? George Bush should be put on trial for his war crimes, what do you think?
Susan Maneck wrote, “It is highly unlikely they will remain in Iraq after US withdrawal. It has been much too dangerous for them as it is. Over a thousand contractors have been killed.”
Are you aware that the United States has built an embassy in Iraq that is 104-acres, the size of about 80 football fields?
This is far from the point that I was trying to make, thanks a lot for dodging the issue… again!
Care to provide the exact stats and link us to these surveys?
I happen to have met one of the creators behind Iraq the Model. They are average Iraqis with a different opinion than us, why should we dismiss them as “collaborators”? Where is this “evidence” that you base your idea off of, is it because they have met the President? This means they’re being paid to do what they do?
You back up none of your claims with sufficient posts and evidence.
Lastly I do not I appreciate at all the tone that you are using in your comments; be more respectful in approaching others.
And people, what does my post have to do with the Iraq war?
Esra’a
That’s like asking what does 9/11 have to do with your post.
Iraq has everything to do with your post. Every time an explosion goes off (or any other violent action occurs) in Iraq, it is blamed on AlQaeda and Muslim extremists. Many people in Western media use it to make negative generalizations about all Muslim people.
I just what to know why every single thread you participate in turns out to be about the exact same boring shit. Yawn, etc. Stick to your blog for the conspiracy theories. Thank you.
Esra’a,
Conspiracy theories? All my links are from reputable sources and haven appeared in mainstream press. But it doesn’t make frontpage news or alot of airplay. It is often buried in the back pages or gets a minute of airtime.
I’m not dodging anything Esra’a, you’re the one trying to spin facts around a bogus and ignorant world view. If you “don’t appreciate” the tone of the conversation then I strongly suggest you get acquainted with the facts and stop being an apologist for American war propaganda. Don’t try to cover your ignorance and accusing others of “conspiracy theories” when they give you source after source.I did give you a source proving that “Iraq the model” is pro-occupation fraud site. Look at it again :
http://antiwar.com/blog/?p=1659
The 2 brothers who run the site are NOT average Iraqis, but a pair of rich professionals on the occupation payroll. The average Iraqi barely has 4 hours of electricity, much less the desire the support the invasion and rape of his own country on a website.
As for sources showing that the majority of Iraqi support attacks on occupation terrorists, here you go :
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14689
http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/20060627_occupation_iraq_hearts_minds/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html
American’s didn’t deserve to die on 911, but they sure as hell deserve to die in Iraq. And bury the lies that go along with them. I have zero sympathy for a country that rapes and slaughters children and carries on like nothings wrong.
John’s post in a nutshull:
“Whine whine whine you’re ignorant I have sources to prove it [INSERT LIBERAL BLOGS] really I do check this out [INSERT ZIONIST THREAT] oh my god seriously [INSERT PERSONAL ATTACK] oh and did I mention you’re ignorant?”
Well you children can continue the fling fest here then, just don’t expect anyone to take you seriously if you’re going to dismiss everyone as a collaborator just because they have a different perspective on things. Good luck kiddos, may your ignorance be as blissful as ever.
It’s all I’ve ever seen you talk about on here. 9/11, American conspiracies, the same sources over and over.
This source you linked doesn’t prove anything. I also hate it, by the way, when anyone claims to know what the majority of Iraqis want. Was this question asked of them when the majority of America’s representatives in government decided to invade Iraq? If not, how is it an argument for withdrawal?
You can’t go around labeling people you know nothing about just because it fits your world view. You may be right, you may be wrong (I’d argue the latter) but at the end of the day your buying into as much, if not more propaganda than any one else.
I have always found racism a tough issue to deal with. Especially being Jewish, I often find myself considered one of the gang, but not always feeling like it on another level. I even get confused whether to consider it racism or prejudice when I think I’m being discriminated against. For example a guy named Tarek Abdel-Aleem who I went to college with was a hardcore Palestinian who was extremely anti-Semitic and I tolerated it for some time. Actually he basically was anti every religion except Islam. What an ugly gapped toothed fuck he was. I eventually learned tos tand up for myself but not sure how to react. I wish people would know the harm they cause others….
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