Conspiracy theories? All my links are from reputable sources and haven appeared in mainstream press. But it doesn’t make frontpage news or alot of airplay. It is often buried in the back pages or gets a minute of airtime.

It’s all I’ve ever seen you talk about on here. 9/11, American conspiracies, the same sources over and over.

I’m not dodging anything Esra’a, you’re the one trying to spin facts around a bogus and ignorant world view. If you “don’t appreciate” the tone of the conversation then I strongly suggest you get acquainted with the facts and stop being an apologist for American war propaganda. Don’t try to cover your ignorance and accusing others of “conspiracy theories” when they give you source after source.I did give you a source proving that “Iraq the model” is pro-occupation fraud site. Look at it again :

This source you linked doesn’t prove anything. I also hate it, by the way, when anyone claims to know what the majority of Iraqis want. Was this question asked of them when the majority of America’s representatives in government decided to invade Iraq? If not, how is it an argument for withdrawal?

You can’t go around labeling people you know nothing about just because it fits your world view. You may be right, you may be wrong (I’d argue the latter) but at the end of the day your buying into as much, if not more propaganda than any one else.

Well you children can continue the fling fest here then, just don’t expect anyone to take you seriously if you’re going to dismiss everyone as a collaborator just because they have a different perspective on things. Good luck kiddos, may your ignorance be as blissful as ever.

http://antiwar.com/blog/?p=1659

The 2 brothers who run the site are NOT average Iraqis, but a pair of rich professionals on the occupation payroll. The average Iraqi barely has 4 hours of electricity, much less the desire the support the invasion and rape of his own country on a website.
As for sources showing that the majority of Iraqi support attacks on occupation terrorists, here you go :
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14689
http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/20060627_occupation_iraq_hearts_minds/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html

American’s didn’t deserve to die on 911, but they sure as hell deserve to die in Iraq. And bury the lies that go along with them. I have zero sympathy for a country that rapes and slaughters children and carries on like nothings wrong.

Conspiracy theories? All my links are from reputable sources and haven appeared in mainstream press. But it doesn’t make frontpage news or alot of airplay. It is often buried in the back pages or gets a minute of airtime.

That’s like asking what does 9/11 have to do with your post.

Iraq has everything to do with your post. Every time an explosion goes off (or any other violent action occurs) in Iraq, it is blamed on AlQaeda and Muslim extremists. Many people in Western media use it to make negative generalizations about all Muslim people.

Sorry Esra’a, but you’re not an Iraqi either, so why do you choose to believe American war propaganda? The pro-occupation blog you pointed to was exposed years ago as fraud run by collaborators on the payroll.

This is far from the point that I was trying to make, thanks a lot for dodging the issue… again!

According to survery after surver, Iraqis want Americans out, and over 80% support attacks on American occupation terrorists.

Care to provide the exact stats and link us to these surveys?

I happen to have met one of the creators behind Iraq the Model. They are average Iraqis with a different opinion than us, why should we dismiss them as “collaborators”? Where is this “evidence” that you base your idea off of, is it because they have met the President? This means they’re being paid to do what they do?

You back up none of your claims with sufficient posts and evidence.

Lastly I do not I appreciate at all the tone that you are using in your comments; be more respectful in approaching others.

And people, what does my post have to do with the Iraq war?

In the link I gave about the Zbigniew Brzezinski it says “The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention.”

Susan Maneck wrote ”My recollection is that the the US helped the Ba’ath part launch a coup in 1963 but Saddam was not that high up in the party at the time. He was just a thug. His rise to power had more to do with Saddam’s ability to manipulate General Ahmed Bakr. Yes, the US supported Saddam in his invasion of Iran which was every bit as much an act of aggression as his invasion of Kuwait.”

The CIA took part in the 1963 assignation of Abdul Karim Kassim, who had nationalized Iraqi oil companies.. Saddam Hussein became head of Iraq’s secret service and collaborated with the CIA to massacre thousands of Iraqis who disagreed with the new regime. Also, the U.S. puppet Saddam Hussein got the okay from the United States before he invaded Kuwait.
By the way, the United States provided weapons and false strategic advice to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war. see http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292

Susan Maneck, wrote, “The best figures I’ve seen is that Americans are responsible for 37% of the civilian deaths. My figures come from the Iraqi Body Count Project which is anti-war.”

The sources that Iraqi Body Count uses do not have the will, money, time or resources to investigate the causes of all the deaths in Iraq. Many of the people on the political left like to pretend that what is going on in Iraq is just a civil war so that they do not have to bear the responsibility have allowing a genocide in Iraq to occur.

Susan Maneck wrote,” The actual reason may not be as conspiratorial as you think. I think Bush just wanted revenge for Saddam’s attempt on his father’s life. Afterwards he uses it to benefit his cronies, it’s true.”

The Kuwaitis are the source of this claim of an attempt on Father Bush’s life. The same ones who told us that Saddam’s army was pulling babies out of incubators and throwing them on the floor. Even if it were true that Saddam attempted to assassinate Bush, I hardly think it justifies the murder of over a million of Iraqis? George Bush should be put on trial for his war crimes, what do you think?

Susan Maneck wrote, “It is highly unlikely they will remain in Iraq after US withdrawal. It has been much too dangerous for them as it is. Over a thousand contractors have been killed.”

Are you aware that the United States has built an embassy in Iraq that is 104-acres, the size of about 80 football fields?

Randall,

My recollection is that the the US helped the Ba’ath part launch a coup in 1963 but Saddam was not that high up in the party at the time. He was just a thug. His rise to power had more to do with Saddam’s ability to manipulate General Ahmed Bakr. Yes, the US supported Saddam in his invasion of Iran which was every bit as much an act of aggression as his invasion of Kuwait.

You wrote: “You have no proof that more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.”

The best figures I’ve seen is that Americans are responsible for 37% of the civilian deaths. My figures come from the Iraqi Body Count Project which is anti-war. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

“What needs to be done is an announcement of what was the actually reason that the Pres. Bush Administration decided to invade Iraq. Those who benefited most from the invasion need to be watched because even if the troops are withdrawn, elements of U.S. government and corporations will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.”

The actual reason may not be as conspiratorial as you think. I think Bush just wanted revenge for Saddam’s attempt on his father’s life. Afterwards he uses it to benefit his cronies, it’s true. It is highly unlikely they will remain in Iraq after US withdrawal. It has been much too dangerous for them as it is. Over a thousand contractors have been killed.

“If a foreign power did to the United States what has been done to Iraq, there would be race and religious wars throughout the land and no child, woman or man would be safe in America”

I don’t doubt for a second that this is true, in fact that is my point. When you destroy a country’s infrastructure you destroy all law and order with it. The fact that Hammurabi’s Code was one of the first casaulties of the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure symbolizes a great deal. And as in the case of Iraq if such damage was done to America the violence would only escalate once the foreign power left. So the question remains, how do we leave Iraq without that happening?

Did you hear about about how the United States had helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities?

Susan Maneck wrote, “Give me a scenario for US withdrawal that doesn’t end in masscres for one Iraqi faction or another? Because as it is, more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.”

You have no proof that more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis. This is just repeated over and over again in the mainstream media, so that the United States does not have to take its responsiblity for the genocide in Iraq.
What needs to be done is an announcement of what was the actually reason that the Pres. Bush Administration decided to invade Iraq. Those who benefited most from the invasion need to be watched because even if the troops are withdrawn, elements of U.S. government and corporations will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.

Susan Maneck wrote to John (who wrote “They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.”)
“Prove it. Stop killing one another. It is understandable that Iraqis would kill a foreign invader but internecine slaughter is another thing. Compared to Vietnam, American casualties in Iraq have been rather light. Most of the violence has been Iraqis killing Iraqis.”

Susan remember the chaos that ensued after Hurrican Katrina? But this was a natural disaster that occurred in an unoccupied wealthy country.

Lets review what the United States, Britain and their allies have done in this second invasion of Iraq, a country already devastated by a first invasion and sanctions. They
#1) bombed the country and destroyed its infrastructure
#2) rounds up thousands of Iraqis and jails them without justification
#3) makes decisions when elections are to take place and whether the results are valid
#4) benefit more from reconstruction projects than the Iraqis
#5)can break into jails to release prisoners against the Iraqi’s governments wishes. (Remember when two British men where caught disguised as Arabs carrying explosives and weapons in their car? Their fellow British soldiers broke into the jail they were in and helped them to escape) see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20051015&articleId=1089

If a foreign power did to the United States what has been done to Iraq, there would be race and religious wars throughout the land and no child, woman or man would be safe in America

There was some aid at that point which was given to opponents of the communist regime. Not enough to overthrow the government, just enough to entice the Soviets into intervening. And it wasn’t given to Muslim extremists at that point. That occurred later, after the Russian invasion, when all aid had to go through Zia’l-Haqq in Pakistan. He decided which groups would receive the Aid and he was the one who favored the extremists. That is not to say it wasn’t our responsibility.

“You don’t think this is terrorism?”

No, I just think it’s wrong.

“Do you think any American high level government officials should be put on trial or this should be done only to leaders of small economically/militarily weak governmnets?”

Leaders of government, whether big or small aren’t usually put on trial for terrorism, they are usually tried for war crimes which as I said is another thing entirely. Has the US ever committed acts of terrorism? Yes. When they blew up a Shi’ite mosque in Lebanon during Friday prayers a couple of decades ago in reprisal for the Hizbullahi suicide bombing of a US Marine Base, that was an act of terrorism because a mosque is a civilian target. The Hizbullahi attack on the Marine base was not an act of terrorism because Marine bases are military targets. Do you see the difference? It doesn’t necessarily make one act more right or wrong than the other.

Terrorism is one particular type of violent act and it may not be the worst one.

What do you mean “released false intel to the Russians?” THe U.S. didn’t release any intel to the Russians, it was actually involved in funding and training Muslim extremists in overthrowing the Afghani regime. See this interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

The United States could have chosen pro-democracy (instead of Muslim extremist) groups to work with, but doing this would mean that Afghanistan would not be a puppet state, the way Saudia Arabia is. An unoccupied democratic Afghanistan would do what’s best for its own people not what’s best for the United States.

You don’t think this is terrorism? Do you think any American high level government officials should be put on trial or this should be done only to leaders of small economically/militarily weak governmnets?

“The Iraqi people want you out of their country, but you won’t leave and thats why they’re killing your precious war criminals.”

Except they are killing more Iraqis than Americans.

“Susan is repeating the old lie common amongst apologists for the war that its just Iraqis killing each other while the invaders are innocently stuck in the middle.”

Did I say we were innocent? We are stuck in the middle because we put ourselves there, not because we are innocent. That doesn’t change the fact that removing ourselves without a proper infrastructure in place could have catastrophic results.

“They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.”

Prove it. Stop killing one another. It is understandable that Iraqis would kill a foreign invader but internecine slaughter is another thing. Compared to Vietnam, American casualties in Iraq have been rather light. Most of the violence has been Iraqis killing Iraqis.

“Iraqis were not killing each other UNTIL after the invasion.”

I heard tell that Saddam Hussein killed more than a few people.;-} But yes, it was the American destruction of the Iraqi government which caused the current chaos.

“Anybody who has read a history book knows occupation powers bear direct responsibility for what happens under their watch.”

They are also responsible for what happens after they leave, which is my point.

Randall asks:

“What about when the United States provides weapons, training, and/or strategic advice to both sides of a conflict, is that terrorism?”

No, it is not terrorism. What I’m trying to tell you is that not every immoral and dastardly deed is an act of terrorism. And yes, the United States has done this numerous times. We now know for instance, that the United States deliberately released false intel to the Russians that we were about to intervene in Afghanistan to destroy the communist government which led to Russia’s invasion of that country. We did it because we knew it would mire them down in their own Vietnam. The cost to Afghanistan itself wasn’t even considered. It was a terrible thing to do, but it wasn’t terrorism. In any case, we now have two Vietnams on our hands. What goes around, comes around.

Esra, I speak for a hell of lot more Iraqis then the charlatans running the “Iraq the model” blog.

Not if you’re not Iraqi yourself.

Listen, no one is arguing against your opinions that certain Americans are doing horrible things in Iraq and that this war is more commonly referred to by many Iraqis as an “occupation.” That is a perfectly legitimate opinion with enough news to back it up. What is distasteful about your comments however is that they really come off as racist if you blame the entire American nation for the actions of less than 0.01% of their population, referring to Americans in general as “sick people” who will “burn in hell” for their “crimes.” What crimes? Most of them have nothing to do with this, a bunch of marines do something stupid and you can’t stand any Americans? It’s irrational.

And I am not interested in conspiracy theories, so I won’t bother arguing about Al Qaeda. We have a heck of a lot more extremists running around to be bothering about conspiracies anyways.

Give me a scenario for US withdrawal that doesn’t end in masscres for one Iraqi faction or another? Because as it is, more Iraqis than Americans are killing Iraqis.

http://antiwar.com/blog/?p=1659

Susan, what the US has done to Iraq since 1991 is GENCODE, with over 2.5 million dead from a combination of sanctions and the 2003 invasion and its aftermath. Americans soldiers are TERRORISTS, thats a fact and no amount of pathetic excuses by you and other Americans will change that. The Iraqi people want you out of their country, but you won’t leave and thats why they’re killing your precious war criminals. Iraq is the seat of the oldest civilization on earth. They invented government. They will do just fine when the occupiers pack up their bags and leave, or sent home in body bags.
America is the most religious country in the western hemisphere, but recent figures suggest that a significant shift has been made in the direction of agnosticism and atheism.
Bravo, Randal for speaking the truth at a time when lies are the standard.

So placing sanctions that hurt the people more than its leader is not genocide? Bombing the infrastructure, water supply, and schools is not genocide?

Let’s not forget that it was the United States that helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported him, strategically and financially, when he was committing his worst atrocities. The Iraqi people are scapegoats of U.S. foreign policy.

Since the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq was not to help the Iraqi people, if the United States leaves Iraq, it will still have members of the CIA, military, and agent provocateurs stay behind in Iraq to perpetuate the violence until the U.S. gets what it wants out of Iraq.

Susan wrote, “I define terrorism as the deliberate targeting of non-combatants in order to instill fear.”

What about when the United States provides weapons, training, and/or strategic advice to both sides of a conflict, is that terrorism?
The U.S. did this in the Iran-Iraq war and the Congo.

Do you think it was alright that the United States killed 3 to 5 million people in Vietnam and Cambodia, just because it did it in the name of fighting Communism?

How many does people the United States government have to kill before it is considered a war crime and high level government official are put on trial for their actions?

Dear Ezra,

Not just Clinton. There are currently more Muslims in America than Presbyterians or Anglicans. 44% of Americans have changed their religion. It is a good thing we don’t have apostacy laws.

warmest, Susan

As for Americans becoming atheists, in fact Americans are the more religious than any other developed nation. Over 80% of the population believes in God.

To add, Islam is the fastest growing religion within the country (according to Clinton anyways.)

I don’t doubt atrocities have been committed. That doesn’t make hundreds of thousands of American troops terrorists. Personally, I thought invading Iraq was wrong. I still think so. But I also believe if we were to suddenly get up and leave the result would be genocide. And genocide is worse than war, worse than terrorism.

As for Americans becoming atheists, in fact Americans are the more religious than any other developed nation. Over 80% of the population believes in God.

Susan

You really shouldn’t speak for all Iraqis. Many would agree with you, but many also have different perspectives, like these guys for example.

I can understand why so many Americans have become atheists…its too scary for them to think of accountability for their actions. Rest assured, a just and real God will make them burn for their crimes.

American marines (U.S forces in general) do not represent American views or American people. Please distinguish between a government and an entire nation, many of whom are also against the war and have protested it on many occasions.