Comments on: Martial Law in Pakistan : An Update http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/ Thinking Ahead Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:46:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: eric/canada http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15043 eric/canada Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:17:53 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15043 well first as an ignorant white fuck I can certainly tell the difference between a Pakistani and Arab convienence store keeper! You just look at the phone cards they sell....:P On to the topic at hand: Pakistan is in no danger of anarchy if the current regime is overthrown, since, the last time I checked, it had a parliamentary and judicial system that unfortunately is subject to the occaisional military dictatorship. One would assume that this system would function quite well if only the gentlemen with the uniforms would SIT THE FUCK DOWN AND KNOW THEIR ROLE. 'pardon my language, how rude' well first as an ignorant white fuck I can certainly tell the difference between a Pakistani and Arab convienence store keeper! You just look at the phone cards they sell….:P On to the topic at hand: Pakistan is in no danger of anarchy if the current regime is overthrown, since, the last time I checked, it had a parliamentary and judicial system that unfortunately is subject to the occaisional military dictatorship. One would assume that this system would function quite well if only the gentlemen with the uniforms would SIT THE FUCK DOWN AND KNOW THEIR ROLE. ‘pardon my language, how rude’

]]> By: Alan(UK) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15042 Alan(UK) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:59:39 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15042 Tamara, Thank you for your reply. yes I agree, people showing courage is pretty awesome, please accept my apologies for taking your words in the wrong context. I found your suggestion that Islam might be numbered among the new enemies to be quite disturbing, is this how you see things? It is interesting to me in as much as that in the cold war both of the protagonists considered the other the enemy, your words suggest that in this new Global Conflict, if that is in fact what it is, one of the "sides" may be an innocent victim. And that may be true, but hey I,m going off a bit global for a thread on Pakistan, but really when you talk about politics, globals what it is. You think we didn't do intellectual and cultural revolutions 30 years ago? still got a lot of people killed though I,m afraid. By dark forces, I think I mean any power structure in particular, for whom a peaceful and equitable outcome for the ordinary people is not that important. Different dark forces often have different objectives. May be there is America et.al.= oil,power the continuation of the status quo, what about India next door? no love lost there. Russia, Saudi Arabia, The Global Caliphate as suggested to me by my next door neighbor, who is from Pakistan by the way, well 25 years ago anyway so she is probably as confused as me. Before you say anything,I am lucky enough to live in a very diverse neighborhood in London and in my local market the preachers of Jihad and The Global Caliphate, as they call it. are very loud and very seductive to some of our young peoples minds. By the way Tamara, Governments and corporations are not some abstract concept that are intrinsically evil or bad or delusional. They are people who may be all, some or none of those things. More Power to our Pens, and may our freedom to think and communicate be forever with us. enough from me, this is a young persons site. I shall now return to read and learn mode. Regards Alan Tamara,
Thank you for your reply. yes I agree, people showing courage is pretty awesome, please accept my apologies for taking your words in the wrong context.
I found your suggestion that Islam might be numbered among the new enemies to be quite disturbing, is this how you see things? It is interesting to me in as much as that in the cold war both of the protagonists considered the other the enemy, your words suggest that in this new Global Conflict, if that is in fact what it is, one of the “sides” may be an innocent victim. And that may be true, but hey I,m going off a bit global for a thread on Pakistan, but really when you talk about politics, globals what it is.
You think we didn’t do intellectual and cultural revolutions 30 years ago? still got a lot of people killed though I,m afraid.
By dark forces, I think I mean any power structure in particular, for whom a peaceful and equitable outcome for the ordinary people is not that important. Different dark forces often have different
objectives. May be there is America et.al.= oil,power the continuation of the status quo, what about India next door? no love lost there. Russia, Saudi Arabia, The Global Caliphate as suggested to me by my next door neighbor, who is from Pakistan by the way, well 25 years ago anyway so she is probably as confused as me. Before you say anything,I am lucky enough to live in a very diverse neighborhood in London and in my local market the preachers of Jihad and The Global Caliphate, as they call it. are very loud and very seductive to some of our young peoples minds.
By the way Tamara, Governments and corporations are not some abstract concept that are intrinsically evil or bad or delusional.
They are people who may be all, some or none of those things.
More Power to our Pens, and may our freedom to think and communicate be forever with us.
enough from me, this is a young persons site. I shall now return to read and learn mode.
Regards Alan

]]> By: Tor (Norway) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15041 Tor (Norway) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:59:11 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15041 I have started a thread in the forum, by attempting to summarize my ideological outlook. You will no doubt find fault with something, and then we will have a discussion going. Alternatively, you could delineate what you would have work differently in more detail, like what actions "the powerful" need to be held more responsible for, and the framework you would propose to do this. My thread starts <a href="http://www.mideastyouth.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1324" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Tor I have started a thread in the forum, by attempting to summarize my ideological outlook. You will no doubt find fault with something, and then we will have a discussion going. Alternatively, you could delineate what you would have work differently in more detail, like what actions “the powerful” need to be held more responsible for, and the framework you would propose to do this.

My thread starts here.

Tor

]]> By: Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15040 Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:17:23 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15040 Alan, My comment of 'awesome' was in fact in reference to the actions of these people in Pakistan. I am very well aware of what the situation is like in Pakistan, and the fact that they did that, regardless of the possible consequences, was in fact awesome! <blockquote>During my time, revolutions were often not political in the sense that Pakistan appears to be, rather, the age old story of an oppressed people finally finding the courage, the resources the right time in history etc. to break out from under boot of the ruling class, whoever they happened to be in the particular struggle.</blockquote> Is this not what these people are trying to do? And is this not what I am saying? And the simple fact that it is the oppressed people fighting the 'ruling class' make it political? <blockquote>There was a serious confrontation going on called “the Cold War” the east versus the west, the communist ideology against the capitalist free market global economy. </blockquote> I am aware of the Cold War and what it entailed. But does it not sound frighteningly familiar? The enemy has simply changed from communism to Islam/Middle East/Terrorism (I use these terms very loosely). As for your point about my 'romaticisation' of revolution, by no means am I doing that, I understand fully the consequences of such a thing. And I would also like to point out that revolution can take on various forms, not just physical. The world is a very different place to 30 years ago, and that means things can happen differently, more than anything I support an intellectual and cultural revolution. <blockquote>Who are the dark forces in the shadows of this one ,because I believe that they are there, and they will put the beautiful country of Pakistan into a dark place for a long time. </blockquote> I am unsure what you mean. <blockquote>the world is amazing</blockquote> I agree with you there, and that is why is it unjust to allow what is happening to it to continue. The corruption and absurdity of the governments and corporations are not just harming people, they are harming the environment too, so what if we sit back and do nothing, will happen to this amazing world of ours? Alan,

My comment of ‘awesome’ was in fact in reference to the actions of these people in Pakistan. I am very well aware of what the situation is like in Pakistan, and the fact that they did that, regardless of the possible consequences, was in fact awesome!

During my time, revolutions were often not political in the sense that Pakistan appears to be, rather, the age old story of an oppressed people finally finding the courage, the resources the right time in history etc. to break out from under boot of the ruling class, whoever they happened to be in the particular struggle.

Is this not what these people are trying to do? And is this not what I am saying? And the simple fact that it is the oppressed people fighting the ‘ruling class’ make it political?

There was a serious confrontation going on called “the Cold War” the east versus the west, the communist ideology against the capitalist free market global economy.

I am aware of the Cold War and what it entailed. But does it not sound frighteningly familiar? The enemy has simply changed from communism to Islam/Middle East/Terrorism (I use these terms very loosely).

As for your point about my ‘romaticisation’ of revolution, by no means am I doing that, I understand fully the consequences of such a thing. And I would also like to point out that revolution can take on various forms, not just physical. The world is a very different place to 30 years ago, and that means things can happen differently, more than anything I support an intellectual and cultural revolution.

Who are the dark forces in the shadows of this one ,because I believe that they are there, and they will put the beautiful country of Pakistan into a dark place for a long time.

I am unsure what you mean.

the world is amazing

I agree with you there, and that is why is it unjust to allow what is happening to it to continue. The corruption and absurdity of the governments and corporations are not just harming people, they are harming the environment too, so what if we sit back and do nothing, will happen to this amazing world of ours?

]]> By: Alan(UK) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15039 Alan(UK) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:57:44 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15039 Hi Tamara, Revolutions are very seldom "awesome". not to the the poor people caught up in them, they always turn very bloody and violent because people who require revolutions to remove them do not give up easily. However, sometimes they are necessary, and in the long run turn out to be a good thing. Having said that I find myself very worried that you do not fully understand the underlying reasons and power currents that dictated the courses and outcomes of the majority of revolutions that have taken place hitherto and particularly during my life time. here I need to tell you,I am not a youth, but I hope you will indulge me on your excellent website. During my time, revolutions were often not political in the sense that Pakistan appears to be, rather, the age old story of an oppressed people finally finding the courage, the resources the right time in history etc. to break out from under boot of the ruling class, whoever they happened to be in the particular struggle. In the 1960,s and 1970,s they often became politicized by the intervention of outside powers. There was a serious confrontation going on called "the Cold War" the east versus the west, the communist ideology against the capitalist free market global economy. we called it the cold war because we never actually got down to the dirty business of fighting , but I can tell you if there was a "revolution" anywhere then both superpowers would pick a side and the victims in these viscous conflict or wars, because thats what they became,found that war/ revolution is very hot indeed. What have a lot of them got these years later? often a (perhaps) not quite so corrupted ruling class, and maybe they moved the process forward a bit and they aren't so outrageously oppressed as they were. maybe. Oh, maybe the revolutionaries are now the ruling class and they learn,t their skills well at the point of their former masters swords. it does honorable struggle and sacrifice no justice to romanticize it as you appear to me to be doing Tamara, I apologize if I misunderstood. Who are the dark forces in the shadows of this one ,because I believe that they are there, and they will put the beautiful country of Pakistan into a dark place for a long time. Because thats how it works. I love this web site. I am not an internet head particularly, but the world is amazing, as well as our "home" and places like this are fascinating to me. Dear Tamara Think wisely and be careful what you wish for others,I don't need to finish the quote because I am sure you will know or can guess what it is. Best Regards to all. The Pen is often mightier than the sword. I believe that. Hi Tamara,
Revolutions are very seldom “awesome”. not to the the poor people caught up in them, they always turn very bloody and violent because people who require revolutions to remove them do not give up easily.
However, sometimes they are necessary, and in the long run turn out to be a good thing. Having said that I find myself very worried that you do not fully understand the underlying reasons and power currents that dictated the courses and outcomes of the majority of revolutions that have taken place hitherto and particularly during my life time. here I need to tell you,I am not a youth, but I hope you will indulge me on your excellent website. During my time, revolutions were often not political in the sense that Pakistan appears to be, rather, the age old story of an oppressed people finally finding the courage, the resources the right time in history etc. to break out from under boot of the ruling class, whoever they happened to be in the particular struggle. In the 1960,s and 1970,s they often became politicized by the intervention of outside powers. There was a serious confrontation going on called “the Cold War” the east versus the west, the communist ideology against the capitalist free market global economy. we called it the cold war because we never actually got down to the dirty business of fighting , but I can tell you if there was a “revolution” anywhere then both superpowers would pick a side and the victims in these viscous conflict or wars, because thats what they became,found that war/ revolution is very hot indeed. What have a lot of them got these years later? often a (perhaps) not quite so corrupted ruling class, and maybe they moved the process forward a bit and they aren’t so outrageously oppressed as they were. maybe. Oh, maybe the revolutionaries are now the ruling class and they learn,t their skills well at the point of their former masters swords. it does honorable struggle and sacrifice no justice to romanticize it as you appear to me to be doing Tamara, I apologize if I misunderstood.
Who are the dark forces in the shadows of this one ,because I believe that they are there, and they will put the beautiful country of Pakistan into a dark place for a long time. Because thats how it works.
I love this web site. I am not an internet head particularly, but the world is amazing, as well as our “home” and places like this are fascinating to me.
Dear Tamara Think wisely and be careful what you wish for others,I don’t need to finish the quote because I am sure you will know or can guess what it is.
Best Regards to all. The Pen is often mightier than the sword. I believe that.

]]> By: Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15038 Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:23:20 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15038 I appoligise in advance for the divergence. Tor, <blockquote> but I fear you are still trying to foment revolution without a comprehensive plan for winning the peace, or even for defining victory</blockquote> Unlike some I do not pressume to be an expert, or to have all my thoughts and ideas formed in stone. The world is constantly changing and I can not ignore that by holding strict and unchanging ideas. The revolution is not something I myself intend to foment, (I would be no better than a fascist if I did). It is something that needs to happen from within nations and cultures and that will happen through creative thought for an alternative. At this point, my only intention is to encourage people to think critically and to not just accept everything they are told in the mainstream media. <blockquote> I encourage you to, some day when you have the time, explore these ideas on your blog.</blockquote> That is what I am currently pursuing in my PhD. Shall we move this to the forum then? In case you do, I have created a new post in the International Politics section, under World Revolution? I appoligise in advance for the divergence.

Tor,

but I fear you are still trying to foment revolution without a comprehensive plan for winning the peace, or even for defining victory

Unlike some I do not pressume to be an expert, or to have all my thoughts and ideas formed in stone. The world is constantly changing and I can not ignore that by holding strict and unchanging ideas. The revolution is not something I myself intend to foment, (I would be no better than a fascist if I did). It is something that needs to happen from within nations and cultures and that will happen through creative thought for an alternative. At this point, my only intention is to encourage people to think critically and to not just accept everything they are told in the mainstream media.

I encourage you to, some day when you have the time, explore these ideas on your blog.

That is what I am currently pursuing in my PhD.

Shall we move this to the forum then? In case you do, I have created a new post in the International Politics section, under World Revolution?

]]> By: Tor (Norway) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15037 Tor (Norway) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:09:52 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15037 Tamara wrote: <blockquote>What I am interested in, which I have made very clear, is the people in power being forced to take responsability for their actions, being forced to be honest with its people, and putting the interests of their citizens before their financial interests and their desire to dominate other countries. With regards to Arab nations, I would also add that I would want them to allow their citizens to be free to express themselves, even if that means threatening and possibly overthrowing the existing government. Is that clear enough?</blockquote> Much better, but I fear you are still trying to foment revolution without a comprehensive plan for winning the peace, or even for defining victory. It is hard to fashion structures which adequately restrict the potential of those in power to do damage without granting similar power to others. I encourage you to, some day when you have the time, explore these ideas on your blog. Tamara wrote:

What I am interested in, which I have made very clear, is the people in power being forced to take responsability for their actions, being forced to be honest with its people, and putting the interests of their citizens before their financial interests and their desire to dominate other countries. With regards to Arab nations, I would also add that I would want them to allow their citizens to be free to express themselves, even if that means threatening and possibly overthrowing the existing government. Is that clear enough?

Much better, but I fear you are still trying to foment revolution without a comprehensive plan for winning the peace, or even for defining victory. It is hard to fashion structures which adequately restrict the potential of those in power to do damage without granting similar power to others.

I encourage you to, some day when you have the time, explore these ideas on your blog.

]]> By: Tor (Norway) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15036 Tor (Norway) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:59:41 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15036 Ah, forgot to refresh before posting. Ah, forgot to refresh before posting.

]]> By: Tor (Norway) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15035 Tor (Norway) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:58:51 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15035 You can respond in the forum or on your blog, and just link it here, I think I am at my quota for hijacking threads this year. You can respond in the forum or on your blog, and just link it here, I think I am at my quota for hijacking threads this year.

]]> By: Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15034 Tamara (Syria, UAE & UK) Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:53:32 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/15/martial-law-in-pakistan-an-update/#comment-15034 Tor, I dont think I or anyone else can pressume to know what an ideal end state should be, that is what needs to be worked out over time. And no, I dont think Cuba should be a model that should necessarily be followed. No I think you are mistaken, I am not against Capitalism, I am just not a big fan of Capitalism in its current state, it is out of control and will continue to become worse if we do not put some form of restrictions upon multi-national corporations. And yes I am against this so called Democracy that is present in America and Britain (although to a lesser extent). Europe is much closer to real democracy, which I do support. What I am interested in, which I have made <em>very</em> clear, is the people in power being forced to take responsability for their actions, being forced to be honest with its people, and putting the interests of their citizens before their financial interests and their desire to dominate other countries. With regards to Arab nations, I would also add that I would want them to allow their citizens to be free to express themselves, even if that means threatening and possibly overthrowing the existing government. Is that clear enough? Tor,

I dont think I or anyone else can pressume to know what an ideal end state should be, that is what needs to be worked out over time. And no, I dont think Cuba should be a model that should necessarily be followed.

No I think you are mistaken, I am not against Capitalism, I am just not a big fan of Capitalism in its current state, it is out of control and will continue to become worse if we do not put some form of restrictions upon multi-national corporations.

And yes I am against this so called Democracy that is present in America and Britain (although to a lesser extent). Europe is much closer to real democracy, which I do support.

What I am interested in, which I have made very clear, is the people in power being forced to take responsability for their actions, being forced to be honest with its people, and putting the interests of their citizens before their financial interests and their desire to dominate other countries. With regards to Arab nations, I would also add that I would want them to allow their citizens to be free to express themselves, even if that means threatening and possibly overthrowing the existing government. Is that clear enough?

]]>