RAPED yet Punished!
I have been following a case of a nineteen year old Saudi Shia girl from the eastern province who was gang raped fourteen times more than a year ago. The young girl was in a car of an unrelated man when they were attacked by seven Sunni men who raped her.
The victim was punished for violating Saudi Arabia’s laws on segregation that forbid unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was initially sentenced to 90 lashes for being in the car of a strange man as was mentioned in the BBC. The attackers’ sentence was one to five years in prison each.
On appeal, the Arab News reported that the punishment was not reduced but increased to 200 lashes and a six-month prison sentence for the victim. As if she wasn’t punished enough!
The rapists’ sentence was also doubled.. meaning a two to ten years in prison!
Now.. This sentencing really shocked me *although I should be used to such absurdity by now!* Isn’t it enough that this poor girl had to go through psychological trauma, physical abuse plus becoming socially outcasted and alienated for being in the wrong place at the wrong time ?
This girl’s life is destroyed in such a society where it is easier for people to point fingers at the female rather than use common sence! A woman is being blamed for being RAPED. Is there no justice for women in this country?
I am writing this in disbelief. I am sorry if I am repeating my self BUT we are punishing a young girl for sitting in a car with a stranger (non-related man)! Is it mentioned anywhere in Islam that a woman be punished for such thing? If so then they should punish most Saudi women because we all sit in our little cars with strange men driving us (drivers)!
Why are people punished? one may ask.
Deterrence is a very common reason given for why someone should be punished. It is often believed that punishment, especially if made known to or even witnessed by the punishee’s peers, can also deter them from committing similarly punishable offences, and thus serves a greater good preventively.
Deterrence which means dissuading someone from future wrongdoing, by making the punishment severe enough that the benefit gained from the offense is outweighed by the cost (and probability) of the punishment. It is calculated based on the gravity of the wrong done.
Let’s just assume that she should be punished for being with a man (although such thought is so hard to comprehend) Don’t you think what she went through is enough to punish her for the rest of her life? MY GOD.. I truly pray justice is met one day for her and many women like her.
A note before ending this .. Did someone mention we had Human Rights here? Hmmm..I thought so!
Join the Conversation
Freaky post, yet unfortunately not too surprizing… But just a side question – what is exactly going on with Shia in SA? In the US there is not much discussion of the topic, and to be honest I never heard of SHia in SA discussed on al Jazeera or Arab media either. Only the Israeli site like Debka claim they are very much oppressed. How exactly do the Shia fit in Saudi society and what is their situation in terms of human rights?
It’s horrible indeed. There were several similar cases that were recently reported from Yemen (where honor killings are also practiced but are not as common as Jordan and Pakistan.) Many of the victims were raped, some by members of their own family, and then they’re the ones being jailed or punished.
It’s not my place to answer but just thought I’d share the observation that sects are rather irrelevant in these types of crimes. As far as I know, it’s true that Shi’as in SA hardly have a voice in anything. When there are 2 sects, with one being dominant over the other (except for cases like Iraq under Saddam and Bahrain where the ruling party is Sunni yet the majority is Shi’a), it’s only natural that the other sect is oppressed so that it doesn’t rise up to power. Just like the Sunnis are heavily oppressed in Iran. It’s politics. I don’t think these guys raped her because they somehow knew of her sect and were punishing her for it – these details come later and only becomes relevant within the court system. I mean, she would’ve been punished too if she was Sunni, right? How much of a difference does it make?
The rapists should have their dicks cut off in a slow and painful way.
And your law sucks… poor girl.
That is an interesting observation.. I was just discussing this earlier today. It is said but I am not yet sure (will confirm when I can) that the judge was a Shia.
And yes I agree with what Esraá says, I don’t believe the incident had to do with sects rather it happened by chance.
And as she mentioned the Shia in S.A have little to no power. The Shia community is clustered mostly in the Eastern province.
Do you think it would have made a difference in the sentencing if the sects of the victim/rapists were reversed? Or is it more of a matter of the family and how influential they are, or do you think the same punishment would have happened no matter what? Just curious.
Is it that Sunnah are opressed in Iran in general or basically ethnic minorities? Aren’t most Iranian Arabs Shia?
She was not gang raped. No need to exaggerate to get attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape#Group_rape
Seven men gang-raped her. 14 times.
Check your facts.
I think it has to be made clear that these actions do in fact, as the girl’s lawyer says, violate Sharia Law. I think the judges of this case are the ones who should be removed from their positions and punished for their twisted reasoning and their violation of Sharia Law.
The reports I saw (I read two) said she was raped 14 times by 7 men. There was an article on arabnews.com a few days ago.
The reason for the increase in the penalty was that the judge didn’t like then media attention she and her lawyer (who is also being harassed) got for the first sentence. I guess the judge’s reasoning went something like, “This immoral slut has made us look like barbaric assholes: flog her some more!”
I wonder how many rapes go unreported because the victim is afraid of the law? I predict that number will increase.
If being chauffeured around by male Indian drivers is legal in Saudi, Are you sure she is not being punished for reporting the rape? That’s the impression I’m getting. Girl doesn’t know her place, so they’ll sentence her for breaking trumped up laws, to make an example out of her.
(Do they even have a criminal code in Saudi? How can judges just pull laws out of their asses?)
I suppose I’m going to step on some toes in airing this, but to me Saudi society seems deliberately rigged to facilitate the abuse of women, particularly domestic abuse. From the dress code to cover up bruises, and the travel restrictions to deprive women of a social network they might rely on in a crisis, to the financial restrictions that prevent them from being financially independent and, finally, the law enforcement who will track down a fleeing woman and return her to the abuser regardless of her pleas. I mean, they go to great lengths to deprive women of any chance of exiting an abusive relationship don’t they?
A quick google search on “domestic abuse” turns up this list of indicators:
Doesn’t that, appart from the angry drunk/druggie and feigned suicidalness bits, resemble the Saudi establishment? If a bunch of unscrupulous wife beaters got to determine the framework under which they lived, would they have anything any different?
How can the men, and I use that term loosely, of Saudi Arabia not see this?
This is just so unfortunate. Saudi Arabia has a long long way to go before women are treating like human beings. I know about Saudi guys and how perverted they are. I dated one in college and it was the biggest mistake I have ever made. Men from that part of the world are really disgusting and think they are the best in the world because of their male genitalia. I would never ever let my daughter marry a Saudi.
You know, what discourages us from posting these types of stories is the stereotypes that often arrives from them.
You dated one Saudi guy. One. You read this story about few Saudi guys out of like, 30 million. And now you’re basing this uninformed opinion about the WHOLE region and about ALL Saudi men, a lot of whom are decent by the way?
Please.
No doubt a lot of them are decent, but I find it hard to criticize a woman for being suspicious of men who grew up in a misogynistic culture.
I can say the same for a lot of men from all over the world.
It’s not misogynistic culture… and she’s basing something based on a single life experience…
Are you sure you want to go there, Jina?
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/08/women-or-birds/
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/10/14/back-entrance/
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/09/18/will-we-drive/
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/08/06/2-indonesian-maids-beaten-to-death-slavery-in-21st-century/
You call that suspicious? Bullshit, it’s downright racism:
What does “that part of the world” even mean? Are we all too gross to have a name now?
If you want to make or justify racist claims please go elsewhere. We don’t tolerate it here.
You want me to list the bs that happens where u live? Give me a break…
If a culture hates women… hating women goes against our biology… unless… nm don’t wona get into that.
There is a difference between oppression and hate.
It’s misogynist, law that’s the problem here.
And also, as opposed to the misogyny-free zone elsewhere in the world? Please.
Ehh.. enjoy this… you misogynistic Westerners… not only that you are even bigger pedophiles than anyone else… I can provide source for that also… so you hate kids and women? OMG.. OMG… again give ma fucking break.
http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php
Nadia Wrote:
Misogynist law that is there by popular demand, right? Or am I missing something?
Why is it that unless you angrily and profanely condemn someone it is assumed that you fully support and endorse anything and everything they every said?
I didn’t say I supported her claim, I said I supported YOURS:
Esra’a: “a lot of whom are decent by the way?”
MyTwoCents: “No doubt a lot of them are decent”
I didn’t say it was okay to be racist, I said “I find it hard to criticize a woman for being suspicious of men who grew up in a misogynistic culture.” And from that you assume I’m 100% behind princess’s “really disgusting” and “that part of the world” statements?
So, is SA a misogynistic culture?
Newsflash: SA is NOT a democracy! How can you make such a claim?
Careful, Jina: racist claims aren’t tolerated here, Esra’a says.
Now why don’t you and Nadia go tell the poor girl not to complain about her 200 lashes because things are worse in other places?
Popular demand? Dictators run these countries, what popular demand? Ohh dictators funded and armed by the West… People don’t rule these countries so take your bs somewhere else.
Is US a misogynistic culture?
Westerner is not a race.
We are no longer talking about this. Irrelevent. Ohh and… maybe you’ll be happy if she was being raped by a priest on a daily basis I guess…
Yes, Jina: the US is a misogynistic, racist, colonialist, expansionist culture of morally bankrupt prostitutes and drug addicts. We also have bad breath.
So, is SA a misogynistic culture?
Don’t push it, those are the Brits.
Anyways, I am getting rather tired of watching people here resort to racism and stereotypes in threads that are meant to RAISE AWARENESS. Please for once in your lives try to understand our situation: we don’t post these things so you can be hateful and judgmental. We post these things because like many other people within our societies we want change and a recognition of our human rights. We are doing our best here to shed some light upon our region, to give hope and inspiration to others, and we would really appreciate it if the rest of you can make an effort to understand what the authors are doing here.
Don’t use this website to further your own stereotypes against us. This defeats the purpose of this place.
I knew that.
No
But you are all misogynistic, why bother.
Now why don’t you and Nadia go tell the poor girl not to complain about her 200 lashes because things are worse in other places?
Do you have a learning disability? We’re not saying the sitch in Saudi Arabia isn’t worse than most places in the world. We’re saying that the law is the issue, not the culture.
Rapes happen everywhere, including the West because we live in a culture that assumes it is ok; however Saudi law punishes the rape victim. That’s what the original post was about, I have no idea how you could actually read it and miss that.
Hey hey hey I have wonderful breath and lovely shiny white teeth!
I wrote:
Esra’a wrote:
The rethoric here as well as other places, arguing for the softly softly approach to reform, as in the case of women driving, states pretty much outright that there is cultural inertia at play. In other words, that there is popular support for these policies. In the same vein, I keep reading that the king fancies himself a reformer, but is restrained by an unwilling populace.
If I am missing something now is the time to enlighten me.
Nadia wrote:
I assure you that it is not culturally understood in the west that rapes are “ok”, rather quite the opposite.
Tamara – Sure you do
He does so so he can get weapons and money from the West… you know the place where you probably live.
I have the perfect podcast that proves that you and your ilk are mistaken in your judgment of the Saudi public, particularly of the women and how they choose to empower themselves. I will share it tonight.
And please – if this thread ends up being “East vs. West,” I am going to stab my screen. Please rid yourselves of the superior mentality and try to understand others and where they come from before pointing your fingers and mocking them. It makes this whole exchange worthless and tedious. I am positive that this discussion is NOT what Rasha was aiming for when publishing this article.
He can fancy himself anything he likes, that doesnt make it so…
And yes Tor, I do! :p
Can we all just take a chill pill please? Can we try more consciously to read others comments a little better and try to understand what the other is saying. This arguing is so so so counter productive. Regardless of our ideologies, aren’t most of us here because we are unhappy with the way things are and would like it to change?
TOR:
That’s from the Beauty Myth, p 165. That’s just the number of men that openly said they would force sex on a person. When you ask them what they consider rape or not, the numbers may be higher.
I really need to keep that Beauty Myth quote in a text file, I end up typing it up so much in these types of arguments.
Nadia,
Although that unfortunately doesnt surprise me…I wonder how many of those men would actually go through with it though. Speaking of which, I just watched the Hillside Strangler yesterday and it disturbed me so much.. its sick and perverse.. have any of you seen it?
Nadia, “Do you have a learning disability?”
No, do you have a short-term memory problem?
You claim, “We’re not saying the sitch in Saudi Arabia isn’t worse than most places in the world” but I don’t remember you saying that. I do remember you sarcastically asking, “as opposed to the misogyny-free zone elsewhere in the world?”
Where in the West do you live that rape is culturally “ok”?
Jina, “Westerner is not a race.” Neither is Middle-Easterner. You sound just like princess talking about people “from that part of the world.”
Tamara:
Well the common stat cited is something like 1/4 girls are assaulted in their lifetime, I don’t know what the number is for boys, but yes I was using it as a point about culture and attitudes, not on raw numbers of actual rapes. If 60% of men openly think this way, don’t you think that says something about our culture and maybe why so few girls ever say anything about being assaulted. Statistics on rape are really unrelaible anywhere. Not just because about 99% of them are unreported, but also because people generally don’t have a good idea about what is and isn’t rape.
I have no doubt most of the girls are sane, it’s the middle aged male establishment I’m skeptical about. I do emphatise with the lot of you here, and I’m sorry if I come off as overly confrontational, this sort of stuff just gets my blood boiling.
I would be happy to be proven wrong, really, but I am not going to misrepresent my understanding of things in order to fit inn here or anywhere. If you want me to change my tune on this you will have to change my mind.
Eagerly awaiting the upcoming podcast.
Tor
TwoCents: I was perfectly clear, twice, and you’ve still understood nothing. I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.
I’m sure you’re right, yet one stupid remark has us all at each other’s throats over who’s the biggest racist, who’s the most misogynistic, etc.
What words did I put in your mouth, Nadia?
Nadia:
Next ask them what they think should be done to people found to have committed such actions.
It would be silly to say that bank robbery is considered a-ok because people would admit to wanting to go ahead with it on the condition that they get away with it would it not?
Aaaah.. exactly.. thats what these people come here to do! Distract us from our real purpose.. to try to raise awareness and try to change things. Am I mistaken?
I think rapists should be castrated..
and I would rob a bank if I could.. if I knew I would not suffer the consequences!
Really? I don’t really like the idea of shooting someone in the stomach regardless of whether there are consequences. Because, you know, I think it’s wrong.
Do you think violating someone is like running away with $50k?
No one is asking you to lie or to “fit in.” You just can’t go around misrepresenting us; this is why we take every opportunity to correct any claim made against our societies.
If people come here and say “men from your part of the world are disgusting” then it discourages us to write these types of posts, even if it is so empowering and necessary for us to write these posts.
Do you see this clash and the conflicting interests?
The last thing we want this website to be used for is to feed and inspire racism against our people.
We’re proud of who we are. We’re here to correct the mistakes that are happening in our name and to our citizens. We’re not here to applaud those who attack and judge us because of the issues that we wish to highlight. We don’t want these things to be used against us as people, it only makes our situation so much worse and it often endangers the outspoken authors who write about these things. If you really cared about these issues you’d help us make it better not worse by claiming things like we’re disgusting and pigs (not you specifically; this is an overall example of the typical reactions we’re beginning to get here from foreign readers.)
this was in response to this
If that wasn’t clear.
I think this is exactly the point. Maybe you should make this MY’s slogan!
Both of these are wrong, only one provides you with a motive.
I think that yes, men would consider sex of value, similar to money. The whole business of prostitution is based on it.
Except in this case we’re talking about hurting someone and possibly ruining their life.
Esra’a… One person made one remark like that (on this thread) and it unleashed a hate storm.
Now, I did say I considered SA to have a misogynistic culture: was that too blunt? People can certainly argue whether it’s true, but it’s hardly a gross and insulting racist diatribe.
Esra’a wrote:
Great, correct me.
I get that, and oh, that wasn’t me.
Esra’a wrote:
Absolutely.
Look, the only reason things like this incident happens is because there are indeed people who support this sort of thing. They are typically men, and more often than not from “your part of the world”. As much as that might hurt, that is fact. They also appear to wield quite a bit of power in some countries.
Now, since we all agree on the existence of these people, we should consider it legitimate to hold opinions on the general prevalence of them. I volunteered my impression, it was challenged, and so I explained how I arrived at my conclusions. That gives people who want to change my opinion a better idea of why I think what I think, enabling them to show me where, if anywhere, I’ve gone wrong.
My opinion is not carved in stone on this.
Seriously? You call this a hate storm? Standing up for who we are is now considered hateful? Sorry, I wasn’t aware that I should bow down to your claims. I wasn’t aware that foreigners were experts on the majority of our men and how they think about such cases.
Did you even bother reading the responses and the trackbacks we got from my previous article about Arab sex groups on Yahoo? “Muslims are porn dogs”? How they’re like this because they cover us all up in “garbage bags”?
Seriously. Listen to yourself. Try for once not to justify these types of attacks by claiming that we’re overreacting.
When people make racist claims against us, we will stand up and correct them, whether you like it or not.
It is racist when you label an entire nation something without providing any statistics.
And especially when it’s said in a condescending manner.
MyTwoCents wrote:
I suspect my initial reaction to this might also have caused some offense. I got pissed of, and let loose a broadside against the institutionalized subjugation of women in Saudi Arabia. I was viscerally disgusted with whatever collection of people gives this system sufficient legitimacy to function, and I let it be known. I addressed the criticism against saudi “men” in general, though I know that the generalization does not hold across the board, and that most would stop short of this travesty.
Lots of women support this system they have their… not just men…
I am very proud of the women here who stood up for Saudi men and to the rest of us in the Gulf too. You did very well.
Jina
Lots? Can I get an actual estimate on the proportion of Saudis who think their penal system is not in need of a major overhaul? Or the number who support requiring the consent of a ‘Mahram’ for a woman to handle her own finances?
True. My argument still holds.
Do you mean this one?
Because I don’t think you would compare a crime relating to property to forcing yourself against a woman’s will unless you consider her to be less human.
*to be less *than* human.
Is this what you call “standing up for who we are”?
“you misogynistic Westerners”
“you are even bigger pedophiles than anyone else”
“maybe you’ll be happy if she was being raped by a priest on a daily basis”
“Do you have a learning disability?”
“as opposed to the misogyny-free zone elsewhere in the world? Please.”
That’s not standing up for yourself, that’s ad hominem.
I do like it. Now, can you point to a racist claim I made? And, no: Jina is not correct that it was racist of me to “label an entire nation something without providing any statistics.” For one thing I linked to four other articles on this site deploring the way women are treated in SA.
right because
isn’t inflammatory at all.
OR completely misrepresenting what I said.
That didn’t come out of the blue, Nadia: it was in response to some of the remarks I quoted above.
You are correct, however: that was an inflammatory remark.
Inflammatory: Not racist.
I didn’t see any statistics on those links… did you? If so please enlighten me or do you not understand the English language?
These are made by a non-Arab, non-Muslim Westerner… you don’t learn do you?
Nadia
My argument was that admitting that one might, or would, commit a crime, if not for the possibility of getting caught, does not equate to approval of the crime in general.
And also a complete fallacy and clearly a personal attack that has nothing to do with reality or my actual opinions.
Maybe not “racist,” definitely completely wrong.
What sort of statistics would prove misogyny?
My argument is that wanting to commit violence says something of your opinion of the people that you would be willing to commit them against.
Sexism and Racism.
First figure out what statistics is then figure it out on your own… you have brains don’t you? And if you are still not sure look at the link I linked… that is an example of proof based on statistics.
Tell you what, Folks. I’ll take my disruptive ass out of here so maybe you can actually talk about 200 non-misogynistic lashes for being alone with an unrelated man.
Thank you for the article, Rasha.
What we would need in that case is a similar poll sampling gay men, for calibration purposes. I doubt we would find one.
I however thought your point was:
And in that case you are simply wrong.
MyTwoCents Wrote:
I think I’ll follow your lead, it’s getting late anyway.
MyTwoCents Wrote:
Indeed.
How am I wrong? Almost 60% of college age men said they would rape a woman if there were no law against it. If you say you would do something, one would assume that that means you are on some level ok with doing it.
And gays in general make up like 2-3% of the population, straight males make up a much larger segment of society, I don’t see why you would need to poll them to get a drastically better idea of how rape is viewed in our society. Just because rape isn’t the solely male on female violence that doesn’t change that this is an extremely telling statistic.
Actually, it said no repercussions, not no law. The prospect of becoming a known rapist would no doubt change a lot of these peoples minds.
More to the point, I’m from Norway. Being gay, black or atheist is considered ok here, though they might not be in other places or at other times. Neither of these things would hinder you in seeking political office. Endorsing rape would disqualify you, and that includes in the eyes of that 30 % of college kids. There is an all but universal consensus on this, rape is not up for debate.
Telling sure, but I don’t think it tells what you think it does. I don’t think a devaluation of women relative to men is instrumental.
But I’m going to bed now, sleep well.
Yes funny that the numbers doubled in the affirmative that you would commit rape when the word “rape” wasn’t used, despite the fact that it was still describing an act that still fit the legal definition of rape.
and I take it you think there would be no difference in the results whatsoever between that of a public official and what’s said anonymously at a poll. Which do you think would be closer to the truth?
Your example is bullshit because all rapes don’t happen in public venues with in full disclosure, they happen in private places and the perpetrators are not revealed far more often than they are. THAT is the reality we live in, which is closer top the analogy to the poll. Men are far more likely to commit rape and get away with it than not. That is our reality no matter what people say in public. If you refuse to recognize that then I’m sorry, you’re an apologist.
Fresh from the AFP:
Maybe now the relevant authorities will start paying attention to some of the Kingdom’s absurd laws?
As Esraá and Nadia mentioned the objective of this post was to highlight the injustice of the sentence by the court(judge). There should be laws that protect women in need of help rather than harm them.
I assure you there are so many silent women out there who do get abused either physically, mentally or emotionally but prefer to be silent knowing there is no where to go for help..
I wanted to highlight that the sentencing was non-Islamic in my opinion.. too harsh on the girl (she should NOT have to go through any ruling in the 1s place) and too lenient on the rapists.
I assure you.. we do have good Saudi men who respect women.
By the way.. It is not only men who point fingers and blame the female for putting her self in such a situation as I mentioned in my post.. women can be worse..
Rules and laws should be implemented to protect women.. that is my dream.
Thanks..
It’s time for Iran to invade Saudi Arabia.
They should finish off what they left off in Afghanistan against the Taliban.
Defend the plight of the Shi’ite woman.
Nadia:
I don’t think we are on the same page here, I’m still refuting your assertion that rape is culturally considered a-ok, in which case public officials shouldn’t be hampered by it.
And I reckon even some risk of exposure, here at least, is sufficient to keep most would be rapists in line, the social stigma is a force to be reckoned with. Harsher sentences would still be good, but that goes for crime across the board.
I reckon a public official is a better measure than anonymous people of what is, and is not, considered acceptable in our culture, which is still what I am on about. Culture is the very thing that would have those kids change their answer if the poll was not to be anonymous, precisely because the culture does not accept their answer.
HUH?
I am not in any way excusing people who commit rape, nor am I excusing people who let them get away with it. I’m the first, whenever the topic comes up, to call for stricter sentencing and more resources dedicated to investigation and prosecution. Being of the right, I back those sentiments with my vote.
And by the way, culture is precisely what people say in pubic.
I really should skedaddle and leave this thread alone.
I don’t know what world you live in but most of the time here when a girl says she was raped people say, oh she shouldn’t have drunk so much she doesn’t know what she’s talking about//she shouldn’t have dressed like that//been in that neighbourhood so it’s her fault//she’s lying for attention and money//i could co on for a while. When Kobe Bryant got accused of rape, people were furious, photos of the girl, her phone number and directions to her house were posted all over the internet and I assure you they weren’t spreading that info so people could call her with messages of support. When the victim is a child people are much more sympahetic, when it’s a girl, people always seem to find a way of saying that either she’s lying or she deserved it.
Your example of a politician is ridiculous, yes people aren’t going to come out and say “I’m pro rape,” so what? If a majority of people think it’s ok even if they wouldn’t say so to a room full of girls and journalists, and would never consider the fact that rape entails assaulting A FUCKING HUMAN BEING THAT HAS A BRAIN A HEART AND FEELINGS just like them when asked if they would do it or not, yes they’re a misogynist. Because rape does never not have the consequences of violating someone and destroying their life. And if you can’t see that, I have nothing more to say to say to you.
Well, all the dumbass laws and arguments about who has the biggest population of troglodytes aside, how about some real solutions to this problem? Since apparently wearing a cloth phone booth and being extremely socially curtailed is about as effective as the “good behaviour” system here in the west, I propose a different solution entirely: SHOCKY SHOES! All men above the age of, say, 12, will be required to wear shoes that have a built in taser like device that can be activated several different ways, primarily from a signal from a range of stylish jewellery issued to all women above the age of 9 (women maturing earlier, doncha know) Activation by either party will be accompanied by a GPS signal to the local law enforcement authorities, and both parties will have to account for their shocking behaviour. There can also be pheremone activators as a failsafe, “clapper” options for convicted rapists and child molesters, and each shoe will come with a locking mechanism that can only be de-activated to allow the shoe to be removed…by a female signal device. Too authoritarian, you say? Too open to abuse? Tell ya what: Let’s try this system out and when the proven cases of shocky shoe abuse become greater than all the proven sexual abuse cases in the history of mankind, then we can have a comprehensive inter-governmental committee study the issue, which should neatly take us to the end of time. Problem solved. (Now, I only have to figure out how to stop the Chinese from stealing my patent….)
Nadia:
Whatever world I live in, I obviously don’t share with you. None of this would fly here, I am certain of it.
I have made my case to those who will listen, and I see no point in continuing this line of conversation. We’re not breaking any new ground.
You are in bloody denial.
You didn’t have a case to begin with. You are so full of yourself that now it comes to you running away. Very typical of those who think they are morally superior to everyone because of who they are or where they come from.
You are in denial about everything negative about the place they live in and at the same time your racist attitude makes your view about rest of the world seem as if though only they do all the “immoral and bad” things it.
Jina:
I don’t think so. “Blaming the victim” is a term here, and the practice it refers to is universally frowned upon. This did happen here a generation ago, before we, as a society, addressed it.
Jina:
I am tired of you moving the goalposts all the time. I objected to your assertions that rape is “culturally considered a-ok” here, that our culture is permeated by misogyny, and that we react to news of rapes by blaming the victim, and you keep arguing against some phantom position that none of this ever occurs here. Both rape and misogyny exist, but you have not made your case that they are culturally endorsed or tolerated. The burden of evidence is on you, and rather than backing your accusations up, you just keep making more of them. This time you accused me of being racist.
Calling me a racist simply because I disagree with your assessment of these aspects of my culture is nonsensical. I am morally superior to everybody not because of who I am or where I come from, but because of the moral code I choose to adhere to, and the fact that I live in accordance with it. Besides, this has no relevance to your other baseless accusations.
The principal shortfalls of our culture are socialism and pacifism, and I am very much aware of them.
I am sorry for hijacking your thread Rasha, I am just no good at leaving accusations like this alone.
What the are you talking about? I’ve been talking about the same thing the whole time, I’ve provided you with various examples, plus my observations during my 25 years living on this planet; you rebut with some hypothetical scenario involving a politician and that’s your proof that my evidence is irrelevent? Give me a break.
I still don’t get why you people have so much trouble distinguishing between culture and law.
I doubt anyone ever said rape is “a-ok”, we keep saying it’s the law that’s making it possible for rape to go by in the Arab world, NOT culture. While you who probably have no connection, understanding and/or knowledge about this very culture keep saying it’s the culture. How about you stop watching FOX and maybe befriend few Arabs and learn about them etc… then come back and post. Ohh and whatever you see on TV does NOT represent a single Arab I know, that’s half the people I know, including my wife.
Your assessment? Your assessment based on what? Provide me with statistics to backup what you wrote or drop it. Until you provide statistics, you are a racist. Like many racist before you, you are a racist in denial about your own racism.
Hahahahaha so you do say your are morally superiror to everyone else. Great!!!
So our moral code involve being a racist? Great again. Good luck with that.
your not our
I fully agree with Jina and Nadia on this one.
I would also have to agree that this sounds extremely arrogant … and messed up.
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this just sux…
someone neeeeeeeeeeeds to do somedamn thing abt the stupid arrogant rules like this
I thought some might be interested in knowing America’s response to this.
Oh they just CANNOT be any more hypocritical. “Liberty” and “human rights” my ass, they simply only care about their own personal gains and interests even if it means funding dictatorships. They should stop claiming otherwise or attacking other nations in the name of democracy.
Jina
Either gather together a series of quotations from which one may conclude that I am a racist, or refrain from calling me a racist.
Esra’a
It was a response to Jina calling me “Very typical of those who think they are morally superior to everyone because of who they are or where they come from”. I don’t really feel morally superior to everyone, only to people who fundamentally disagree with my ethics, and/or who fail to live in accordance with them. If that is arrogance then color me arrogant.
Nadia
Nadia:
We disagree on the extent to which many students admitting that one would want to commit a crime, if guaranteed to get away with it, signifies cultural acceptance of that crime. I happen to think more of the students would have admitted to wanting to commit robbery, of private residences as well as banks, than rape, under the same conditions. Robbery is nevertheless not culturally accepted.
Your personal observations differ from mine.
That about covers it doesn’t it?
Nadia:
I have no problem distinguishing between the two, though I believe the first often shapes the second. I have no idea how law is relevant to the exchange we’ve been having here though.
Nadia
I was under the impression that the allegation was shifting from the one of cultural acceptance of rape that I first took issue with to one of rampant misogyny. Then it shifts back to rape when I attempt to debunk the argument backing the accusation of misogyny. Then a conditional accusation of being an apologist for rapists is issued. (I recognize that rapists are likely to get away with their crimes, but not that most men commit rape)(And I don’t know what you are arguing in that post, but it is not on topic) I take issue with that, but later posts still imply that I am somehow ok with rape.
I finally get fed up when I mistake Jina accusing me of racism for you.
I suppose some of that might have been honest mistakes, and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I was accused of being an apologist and racist. (the latter by Jina, though I didn’t notice at the time)
Hello All!
I’ve just read through the postings from the last few days on this thread. The Arab News had a good column on this issue by Lubna Hussain, “A Slap in the Face of Justice”.(November 21, 2007). As a “Westerner” living in Saudi….I thought I might bring my perspective to this.
There is no question in my mind that rape is definitely taken very seriously here both culturally and legally. That’s part of what’s remarkable about the current victim and her lawyer. They are standing up on this issue and pushing for their voices to be heard and looking for justice. Just as in the West, people here traditionally take this so seriously that they would be humiliated to raise the issue…and so…so many victims have suffered in silence because of the embarrassment and shame that the victims and their families feel. In my work with young Saudis….I can see a great deal of idealism and hope that issues like this can be worked out in a just way….in the long term. In the short term…there’s no doubt that people need to call on the authorities to step in and re-examine this situation. There is a great risk here that if such a ruling stands…it will definitely dissuade other victims from reporting these crimes…as they will be risking being made a victim a second time. The heart of the issue is…..When will Saudi women be considered adults? When will Saudi women be able to be fully independent, mature human beings who can have all of the rights and responsibilities that they deserve? I hope others will find the courage to stand up as this young lady has….and not suffer in silence as so many have. It’s courageous individuals like her which will bring the society to a tipping point.
Yes Robyn,
I do see some future and hope in our youths too..
In this situation, it is the LAW that was un-Islamic in my opinion. This woman and her lawyer are being punished for speaking out. What kind of message is the law giving? not only for rape victims but in general?
I believe these courageous and pioneer women are the ones to suffer the most in such society. But are they prepared for such sacrifices knowing there is not even legal support?
I read an article a while ago about women in prison. The article discussed women who have served their sentences fully and were disowned by their families. They had no place to go so they were kept in prison!
I think this will give a clear picture of why women are afraid to speak out.
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How many times do people have to tell you that Saudi Arabia is DICTATORSHIP. Which means, the rulers don’t make laws accordance with what the people want. So the culture does not shape the law in a dictatorship.
Take back what you said about Saudi Arabian culture being misogynist and I’ll refrain from calling you a racist.
When you say culture, you include the roughly 50% women population, I am pretty sure that majority of them don’t like to be rapped or want their rapist to get free pass out of jail.
Your logic is really fucked up.
Jina, do you think that there are enough indications or symptoms of misogyny in SA culture that a reasonable person might consider it a possibility deserving of discussion? Or is racism the only possible explanation for anyone even considering such a thing?
I think a way to get a fairer idea of the culture is to look at the neighbouring countries in the Gulf that don’t have these ridiculous laws. Just saying. Saying that the House of Saud represents the culture and attitudes of the region is like saying Trotskyites are representative of European culture.
I’m not even going to bother responding to anything else here it’s just ridiculous.
Also, I find it interesting that no one is commenting on the fact that the man she was with in the car was also raped and lashed.
@Tamara
The problem as I see it is: If USA will protest against that and other laws in the ME many arabs and/or muslims would say that it is not any business of US or the west. If US does not protest your are saying that US should protest.
Regarding mysoginist culture
Tell me, where are real statistics for rape in the ME countries? How many women can report rape to the authorities without being afraid of getting to prisons? How many shelters for abusing women do you have, say in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Jordan? Does a woman whose husband is abusive can report his behaviour to the police, without any consequences to herself?
If there are consequences for reporting abusive husband/relative/outsider to the police how can anyone get correct data on rapes in KSA or other ME countries?
On the other hand there are data in the West simply because at present woman are not afraid of going to the police. That is why there are data on rapes in the West and why allegedly the incidence of rape is high – not because it is really so high but because women are not afraid to go to the police.
And to Jina – why do you think law have nothing to do with culture?
You accuse US and others of high incidence of rape but excuse your own country because there is Dictatorship.
Jina, what the hell dictatorship have anything to do with laws on women? USSR was also dictatorship and its laws had harsh punishments against rape.
Now, I do not live in US, but that constant accusations of westerner’s racism is getting boring. Look at yourself, you are accusing westerners of racism whenever there is slightest criticism of any of your countries, but you can criticize the West and that, in your view, is not racism.
I think you’re being overly defensive and misunderstanding the point that Jina is trying to make.
No one is excusing what is happening. What he is saying is that it happens in your own countries too in rates that are alarmingly high – are you denying that it does? Why do you point your fingers at Saudi and forget what’s going on in your backyards? Do you enjoy feeling morally and “culturally” superior, that this kind of thing happens only in SA and that misogynism is non-existent in the USA or elsewhere?
We admitted and condemned a grave problem. We will not say that SA is the only country it happens to or allow people to refer to our cultures/people as disgusting whenever we admit such issues. It is disrespectful and quite frankly, stupid.
Not half as boring as having foreigners bash SA’s culture when the fault is with the law itself and yes there IS a major difference. Call it racism or paranoia or whatever you want, either way it’s annoying and uninformed and we’re going to refute it whenever we get the chance. It’s important that people grasp this fairly simple concept, because it’s destructive when they don’t.
Hardly the case.
If the USA didn’t financially support these countries; we simply wouldn’t care to involve them.
But for as long as the USA supports these countries financially/politically then yes we are going to butt in and request that it stops being so embarrassingly hypocritical. Like bombing Iraq into oblivion in the name of “liberty” and then funding dictatorships that get away with the region’s most horrendous crimes. Do they really think we’re not noticing these double standards?
You can’t tell us that the USA is “damned if they do or damned if they don’t.” If they don’t want us to complain about the manner in which they choose to get involved in our issues; ask them to change their foreign policies to reflect the nature of human rights the way they claim to. Ask them to stop funding dictatorships. Then come back and maybe you’d have a point.
another anonymous,
I see the problem as this: America picks and chooses what to ‘protest’ about depending on whats in it for them. And this is evident with their actions, or lack there of, throughout the world.
And also tell me, do you know anything about Arab culture? Syrian culture? Jordanian culture? Saudi Arabian culture? Kuwaiti culture?…….. and now I am not talking about the ‘laws’ of the countries, I am asking you about the ‘cultures’.
No one is debating that many Arab nations’ laws are inadequate when it comes to human rights and freedom, that is what we are here discussing.
Nadia
Fair enough. As with communism in Europe though, I suspect the policies of the Saudi regime is supported at least by a significant subculture. Not even authoritarian regimes exist in a cultural vacuum.
One of the observations I count in support of the proposition that Saudi Arabias general policy toward women has some popular support is the non-confrontational approach taken by reformers. I imagine if popular opposition to this policy was as clearcut as some here would have me believe, the Saudi opposition would sound more like the Iranian. So here’s a challenge for those of you in the middle east with time on your hands, if my observations don’t support my inferences, help me make better sense of them.
Jina:
Humor me, provide a linked citation of the offending remarks. Let’s see if they are so obviously wrong as to warrant calling me a racist on account of them.
Jina:
I never expected people to endorse punishing rape victims, even the perpetrators of this travesty is hiding behind some technicality of mandatory chaperoning. On the topic of culture though, how would you explain the following observation?
I keep reading though that victims, having done nothing wrong, are afraid of stepping forward not just because of legal repercussions, but also because of shame. That is cultural.
In “the west”, or at least in my corner of it, rape victims are only ashamed when they are somehow ashamed on behalf of the rapist. For instance, a person having been violated by some family member might be ashamed of belonging to a dysfunctional family. This is a problem since most rapes here happen in precisely such circumstances, and it does lead to fewer rapes being reported.
In the middle east shame and even social isolation is alleged to follow from having been raped, often in the context of someone having been raped by a complete stranger. This then would be an entirely cultural practice of punishing the victim. Are these allegations baseless?
Is this not true in Western societies? Women don’t feel ashamed or isolated once they’re raped? Are people used to getting raped there, or what?
“Is this not true in Western societies?” Fair question: off-topic and already discussed, but fair.
“Women don’t feel ashamed or isolated once they’re raped?” The point — as I’m sure everyone knows — is that rape victims are less stigmatized in the West, have greater support systems, more legal protections and are therefore more likely to be willing to report an attack.
“Are people used to getting raped there, or what?” Is there a point to that other than to be insulting?
Law vs. Culture. The Law requires that she be lashed, what does the Culture say? What percentage of the people agree with the law, at least to an extent? How many folks in SA — just average, everyday people — think it is right that women not be allowed to be alone with unrelated men, or to drive, or that they get 2nd rate public facilities, etc.?
Well jee, if I knew you were that sensitive I would’ve thought you’d use some of that emotion to realize how insulting you’ve been throughout this thread.
I’m not apologizing this time. You made a mistake.
We might actually know these things if they live under a democracy which for the billionth time; they do not. So don’t claim to know the answers when you’re here asking the questions. You don’t know how the majority feel and you therefore have no right dismissing an entire culture as “misogynist.” It’s pathetic.
I think misogyny is a near universal trait of civilization, but what to I know? All I know is I posted in a 100+ comment thread to explain to a European guy that it’s sexist to speak about women and their vaginas like they are a commodity and the majority of people anywhere saying they would rape someone is, in fact, a bad thing. A sexist bad thing.
Labels like “dictatorship” and “democracy” here are really not very helpful. What is more helpful is how responsive governments are to their people. Anybody out there seen “V for Vendetta”…..”Governments ought to be afraid of their people”…”The people ought not feel afraid of their government.” Try polling American and Saudi citizens and see….who is afraid of their government and who is not. Of course the nature of the systems of power seem more balanced and subject to oversight by the people in the U.S. rather than in Saudi….however that doesn’t mean that the government will be responsive. In watching the day to day life of both countries….Saudi leaders are clearly more responsive and by extension more respectful of their people’s wishes. Most Saudis are quite happy to allow power to be used and sometimes misused…as long as it keeps them basically going in the right direction. Saudi has undergone tremendous change over the years. A religious minority was clearly given too much power in the ’80s…. Taliban style thinking was tolerated far too much…the pendulum swung too far one way…it is now swinging away from that kind of extremism….but the authorities clearly know….that if they make too many changes too quickly they will risk a revolution from the most extreme elements of the society which will sweep away all of the progress that they have made. The authorities have to appear to be in control of everything that is happening….even if they aren’t….if people feel that they are not….if they have a crisis of leadership than Saudi will be in serious danger of descending into real chaos. There is a huge population of young people…most of whom want to enjoy all of the freedoms that their Gulf neighbours enjoy….but they are also scared of losing their beliefs and their culture in the process. I cheer on the young lady…her husband…her lawyer…get as much media attention as possible with this situation. The authorities will find some way of righting this wrong. I’ve watched many situations in Saudi…where the court system failed the people and people in power stepped in to make sure that there were fair outcomes. Saudi is not a society based on rule of law. Let’s get that straight. It’s based on relationships. Of course there are huge problems with that. Because… people will use their personal wealth and influence to make things easy for themselves at the expense of others. Hypocrisy has been mentioned. This is also a huge issue. Hypocrisy seem to be largely understood and accepted in Saudi…as just part of life. The young man and lady unallowed to meet in public will be at special clubs and parties together in any number of places around the Kingdom. This is another reason for the frustration of many young people….that the wealthy and influential can live life virtually as they wish…while those less well off have to follow the regular norms. Appearing in public with a boyfriend or girlfriend apparently is quite common in Jeddah while Riyadh lags behind with a public image of great social strictness. Other urban areas seem to be somewhere in between.
It seem clear to me that this new generation of young adults have been exposed to so much of the outside world that they simply will not accept the ways of the past. They will surely do their best to live as they wish and live with whatever level of inner schitzophrenia necessary to live the lives that they wish. Their youth and idealism can accomplish much if they are willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of others. The question is….will they allow the comfort of oil money to keep them subjegated…at least in a superficial…image conscious sense. Take the London based group of Saudi students and their recent elections….pushing for girls to be able to vote and be elected. This commitment to fairness and equality is largely embraced by this new generation. These young men also have sisters and mothers. They know that their mothers and sisters have been mistreated and left behind by their society. The young ladies have to stand up for themselves and keep standing up regardless of the consequences. They need to use the technology that is here and build relationships with their sisters around the country. They must develop solitarity with one another and focus on bringing about the most important changes necessary for their betterment. I’ve seen the respect that people will give Saudi ladies who stand up for themselves in public….usually doctors or business people…there is a mirage of a wall in the mind of many…it is largely not there. But they must develop support networks to encourage each other and to come up with the best ways of pushing forward their agenda.
Pretty good thread on it
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148890
@Esra
[quote]I think you’re being overly defensive[/quote]
Well, you did accuse “my country/countries” of alarmingly high rates of crimes. So I do have to explain, don’t I?
[quote]What he is saying is that it happens in your own countries too in rates that are [b]alarmingly high[/b] – are you denying that it does?[/quote]
Yes. .
Now lets talk about why the rates are so “high” in, as you said it “my countries”
First of all, the rates are not allarmingly high, they are higher than, say 20 years ago, because more people call police when there is rape or other crime. On the other hand the crime rates, at least in the US are lower now than they were in 1999 (the statistics somebody given on this website). There are still relatively high but getting lower.
Secondly, I have to point at what is going on in Saudi Arabia because the subject is bilad al haramayn and not Amrika.
Thirdly, in the west there is a difference in the crime rates between different ethnic groups. In majority of ME countries this kind of problem is much smaller because the population is much more homogenous.
In fourth place let me ask you which ethnic group have the highest incident of committing rapes in Germany, Sweden or Denmark? I won’t tell you, try to look at Interpol data.
Finally. I did not call your culture and/or people disgusting. If I thought so I would not be writing on this website.
[quote]Not half as boring as having foreigners bash SA’s culture when the fault is with the law itself and yes there IS a major difference.[/quote]
No, unfortunately the law is the only thing at fault. If it was only a fault of a law there would not be so many instances of maid rapes or of wrong treatment of foreigners (muslim foreigners) or of wrong treatment of women (inside family) in Saudi Arabia. This rapes or wrongful treatements were not committed by people who are outsiders in Saudi Arabia. The law of SA is part of the problem but the behaviour of many people is another and it is connected to the Saudi Arabian culture.
[quote]It is disrespectful and quite frankly, stupid.[/quote]
I am disrespectful? I am definitely not. I never said that the SA is the only country such things happen. I also never said that in the West such things do not happen. What I [b]try to say[/b] is that there is no data on SA on the crimes because of your law and culture. And in your country people do not go to police because of the law, because they often prefer to “solve” such things in the family and because admitting that someone is raped may give a shame to the family of raped person.
[quote]Like bombing Iraq into oblivion in the name of “liberty” and then funding dictatorships that get away with the region’s most horrendous crimes. Do they really think we’re not noticing these double standards?[/quote]
Double standards are from both sides.Yes, US sometimes has a double standard, but so do people of the ME – shia in Saudi Arabia come to mind.
@ Tamara
[quote]And also tell me, do you know anything about Arab culture? Syrian culture? Jordanian culture? Saudi Arabian culture? Kuwaiti culture?…….. and now I am not talking about the ‘laws’ of the countries, I am asking you about the ‘cultures’.[/quote]
Well, that is difficult question.
Some of the muslims with whom I spoke (living in the West, mind you) tried to tell me that there is one umma and there are no differences between the people of umma.
However……….Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait. That is quite difficult, there are the differences but there are also similarities. For example in Saudi Arabia Riyadh and Jeddah do differ from each other, with Jeddah being more cosmopolitan, more “free” and you, living there would say that they are quite different. However, for an outsider like me the differences are quite small.
Now let me ask you in return. Do you know the culture of Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Russia? The differences between them? Do you know culture of USA, the differences between people living in Florida and these living in Dearborn, Michigan? Or between Alberta and Ontario in Canada? Or the culture of Japan?
No? That’s what I thought. But you see, these are all western countries, even Russia, even Japan, even Hungary.
[quote]Women don’t feel ashamed or isolated once they’re raped?[/quote]
A very good friend of mine got nervous breakdown, and afterwards, for some time, had a trouble having normal relations. But she went to police anyway and got medical psychological help afterwards.And no, she was not isolated, her friends and family helped her. Yes, there is some thinking – was it my fault?, how could it be? – but there was also anger at the rapist, anger of her family at the rapist and help of the familly. [b]Not an anger at a woman or her isolation from a familly, but anger at a rapist!![/b].
@ Nadia
You never, ever, thought “I wish he/she were dead”? If you did should I call you a killer then?
There is a difference between thinking and doing. If there would be none half of the population of this earth would be dead….. or raped.
Sorry, I used wrong code, I will try once again as it is not very clear. I do apologize.
@Esra
I think you’re being overly defensive[/quote]
Well, you did accuse “my country/countries” of alarmingly high rates of crimes. So I do have to explain, don’t I?
[quote]What he is saying is that it happens in your own countries too in rates that are [b]alarmingly high[/b] – are you denying that it does?
Yes. .
Now lets talk about why the rates are so “high” in, as you said it “my countries”
First of all, the rates are not allarmingly high, they are higher than, say 20 years ago, because more people call police when there is rape or other crime. On the other hand the crime rates, at least in the US are lower now than they were in 1999 (the statistics somebody given on this website). There are still relatively high but getting lower.
Secondly, I have to point at what is going on in Saudi Arabia because the subject is bilad al haramayn and not Amrika.
Thirdly, in the west there is a difference in the crime rates between different ethnic groups. In majority of ME countries this kind of problem is much smaller because the population is much more homogenous.
In fourth place let me ask you which ethnic group have the highest incident of committing rapes in Germany, Sweden or Denmark? I won’t tell you, try to look at Interpol data.
Finally. I did not call your culture and/or people disgusting. If I thought so I would not be writing on this website.
Not half as boring as having foreigners bash SA’s culture when the fault is with the law itself and yes there IS a major difference.
No, unfortunately the law is the only thing at fault. If it was only a fault of a law there would not be so many instances of maid rapes or of wrong treatment of foreigners (muslim foreigners) or of wrong treatment of women (inside family) in Saudi Arabia. This rapes or wrongful treatements were not committed by people who are outsiders in Saudi Arabia. The law of SA is part of the problem but the behaviour of many people is another and it is connected to the Saudi Arabian culture.
It is disrespectful and quite frankly, stupid.
I am disrespectful? I am definitely not. I never said that the SA is the only country such things happen. I also never said that in the West such things do not happen. What I try to say is that there is no data on SA on the crimes because of your law and culture. And in your country people do not go to police because of the law, because they often prefer to “solve” such things in the family and because admitting that someone is raped may give a shame to the family of raped person.
Like bombing Iraq into oblivion in the name of “liberty” and then funding dictatorships that get away with the region’s most horrendous crimes. Do they really think we’re not noticing these double standards?
Double standards are from both sides.Yes, US sometimes has a double standard, but so do people of the ME – shia in Saudi Arabia come to mind.
@ Tamara
And also tell me, do you know anything about Arab culture? Syrian culture? Jordanian culture? Saudi Arabian culture? Kuwaiti culture?…….. and now I am not talking about the ‘laws’ of the countries, I am asking you about the ‘cultures’.
Well, that is difficult question.
Some of the muslims with whom I spoke (living in the West, mind you) tried to tell me that there is one umma and there are no differences between the people of umma.
However……….Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait. That is quite difficult, there are the differences but there are also similarities. For example in Saudi Arabia Riyadh and Jeddah do differ from each other, with Jeddah being more cosmopolitan, more “free” and you, living there would say that they are quite different. However, for an outsider like me the differences are quite small.
Now let me ask you in return. Do you know the culture of Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Russia? The differences between them? Do you know culture of USA, the differences between people living in Florida and these living in Dearborn, Michigan? Or between Alberta and Ontario in Canada? Or the culture of Japan?
No? That’s what I thought. But you see, these are all western countries, even Russia, even Japan, even Hungary.
Women don’t feel ashamed or isolated once they’re raped?
A very good friend of mine got nervous breakdown, and afterwards, for some time, had a trouble having normal relations. But she went to police anyway and got medical psychological help afterwards.And no, she was not isolated, her friends and family helped her. Yes, there is some thinking – was it my fault?, how could it be? – but there was also anger at the rapist, anger of her family at the rapist and help of the familly.Not an anger at a woman or her isolation from a familly, but anger at a rapist!!.
@ Nadia
You never, ever, thought “I wish he/she were dead”? If you did should I call you a killer then?
There is a difference between thinking and doing. If there would be none half of the population of this earth would be dead….. or raped.
Esra, Tamara and all
I have to apologize once again. I have changed the codes but it did not do what I wanted. It is not very clear and I hope you can figure it. I am very sorry.
I have a couple of questions for you all. In your ME culture, can a husband rape his wife? This is a debated question in the west, and in many countries the answer is yes.
And have you heard of the bloody wedding dress tradition? In some cultures, the home of the newly-wed husband is supposed to wave the bloody wedding dress that proves the “purity” of the new wife. If the wife is not a virgin and the dress is not bloody, this creates shame on the bride’s family.
One day I was told the story of my grandmother’s grandmother from Baghdad, Iraq. She was wed when she was only 9 years old (nine, no typo!). It was difficult for the new couple to get the wedding dress bloody, but finally after 3 days they succeeded. So, was my great-great-grandmother raped?
I believe I said earlier that there are enough symptoms and indicators of a misogynistic society that any reasonable person would consider the possibility. Is it proven? No: I’m not even sure such a thing can be “proven” in a scientific sense.
I don’t need to list the many symptoms we see in SA: the archives of this site are full of articles about them.
Nadia:
And once again you are insinuating that I disagree with the bolded part when in fact I do not. I just happen to think that the people answering the poll would have answered the same in regards to men if they were sexually attracted to them. That is, I suspect their attitude to others in general need adjustment, not just their attitude toward women.
Esra’a Wrote
If you read the rest of the post you will find I already adressed this. Rape victims here are not in any way shunned by friends, family or aquaintances. That doesn’t happen. A rape victim who had been assaulted by a stranger would also not feel ashamed here, at least most women wouldn’t and society wouldn’t make them. Rape victims do often feel ashamed here on behalf of their family or circle of friends, on account of the rapist being part of it. This is a problem, and one that is often brought up in the context of rape, but it doesn’t paralell what articles describe happening in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and other countries.
levylevthuglife:
In which western countries is this debated? I thought we all agreed that rape was rape regardless of marital status some time ago. Where is this still not settled?
Tor
I think what levylevthuglife meant the following situation: they are both married and the husband wants to assert his sexual rights right now, the wife does not want to do, it for whatever reason. The husband asserts his “rights” forcefully, without permission of wife.
The answer is, yes, it is rape.
In some, specific, circumstances it is difficult to prove if there are little or no outward signs of rape, but with modern techniques it can be proved.
It is a crime, like any other rape. He violates her person.
Yeah I know all that. levy says it’s “a debated question in the west”, I’m asking him to name countries. It certainly isn’t up for debate in Norway, and I sort of assumed it had been settled in other developed countries as well.
another anonymous,
I think you have a problem with your understanding of ‘culture’. My point was that there are distinctive cultures in each country, in the Middle East, Europe, Asia etc…. I am not an athropologist, so I do not know the intricate detail of these cultures, but I am aware of their presense, their disinctiveness and their richness.
You on the other hand, as you have said, merge all the Arab nations into one, finding little difference and hense dehumanising all the people.
Also, Japan isn’t actually a Western country, as you pressume.
The thing is, the issue of rape is a very difficult issue to examine, in all countries. Women, and Men for that matter, do more often than not feel degraded and ashamed and do not want to report it. There is also the debate, as has been discussed here, what is rape? A lot of people are likely to just put it down to a one of incident, and try to forget about it (in the case of the preditor being someone you know). There are numerous reasons why rape incident reports can not be soley relied on for a real estimate of rape occurances.
Rape is wrong everywhere, I don’t think that is much debated, I do however think that from place to place, from certain states in America, places in Europe, Asia and the Middle East, people are uncomfortable and ignorant with how to deal with it. Families will try to keep it quiet, churches will try to cover it up and crazy judges will sentense a girl to 200 lashes.
@ Tamara
Where do I have problem with understanding culture? There are differences between the countries in the ME. Did I not say so?
I wrote Some of the muslims with whom I spoke (living in the West, mind you) tried to tell me that there is one umma and there are no differences between the people of umma.
However……….Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait. That is quite difficult, there are the differences but there are also similarities. For example in Saudi Arabia Riyadh and Jeddah do differ from each other, with Jeddah being more cosmopolitan, more “free” and you, living there would say that they are quite different. However, for an outsider like me the differences are quite small
Is it not acknowledging the differences even between the behaviour or/and culture of people in one area of SA and another? Not to mention between one country of the ME and another? However apart from differences there are also similarities, majority of people in the Gulf States are more similar to each other then to Egyptians. Even the daily language of people in Gulf States is more similar to each other then to the language of Syrians, not to mention to Egyptians.
And how your claim relates to the claims of the muslims in the west that there are no differences between people in the ME, that “we are all Arabs and Muslims therefore if there are a differences between us there are a very small ones”.
You, yourself, are making the same mistake when you do are talking about “the West” or “Europe”
As for churches …….which church is trying to cover up rape? A protestant church, a catholic, orthodox, some other denomination? Where in Europe people are ignorant of what rape is and ashamed of their relative when she is raped? Do you mean UK? Switzerland? France? Russia? Hungary? Sweden? Albania?
As for Japan, why do you say that japan is not a western country? It has its own culture, a very distinctive one, with their own religions – Shinto and Buddhism, belief in powers of ancestors and counting their beginnings from goddess Amateratsu, but it is also a western country with many similarities in the realm of politics and the government.
.
I am not sure I follow you.
Japan is in the Eastern Hemisphere. Look at a map.
Western as applied to countries is not a geographical identity, it is a political, cultural and economic one. Western is synonymous with developed secular liberal democracy. Some people from the US mix religious heritage into that identity, and some, often from Asia, consider it in part an ethnic identity. While Japan’s status as a western country will be disputed on religious and ethnic grounds by people who consider those aspects of society intrinsic to the western identity, no one is challenging Australias or New Zealands status as western countries on account of them belonging to the eastern hemisphere.
Tor,
To my knowledge, the issue of whether a husband can rape his wife is still debated in some parts of the US. This was a big deal about 10 years ago when Lorena Bobit chopped off her husband’s dick after he supposedly raped her. The subject was hotly debated then, and I am not sure it has been totally settled in the US. I imagine the issue has not been totally settled in conservative communities in Europe either. However, I think that societies with a strong organized feminist movement (like Scandinavia) do consider cases in which one partner (husband) sexually violates/exploits the other partner (wife) as rape. At least this has been my impression from living in DK/SE.
Alright, so you’re saying conservative christians still don’t get it. Figures.
I don’t think the feminist movement matters as much in this as the general absence of conservative christianity does though, I believe they need to reach “critical mass” and enclose themselves in a bubble before they start getting these sorts of ideas.
Our political spectrum ranges from socialists on the left to liberals on the right, with a small socially conservative party in the middle trying to play king maker. The people who vote for it all have gray hair.
Ezra
I believe that there are couple of meaning of a “western country”
If you are talking only about geography, then definitely Japan is far eastern country, but then Israel is definitely Middle Eastern country, Australia would belong to the east, Taiwan would be a far eastern country and Albania would be a European country.
If you are talking about “western” countries, then Japan is a western country and so is Taiwan, US and the Israel.
So what, now if your country is not considered “Western” you’re backwards and must be shunned?
Japan is an Eastern country and should be considered as such. The term refers to geography; not standards.
And further to the above:
You also mentioned Estern Hemisphere vs. eastern hemisphere.
From Wikipedia:
The Eastern Hemisphere, also Eastern hemisphere[1] or eastern hemisphere,[2] is a geographical term for the half of the Earth that is east of the Prime Meridian (which crosses Greenwich, England, United Kingdom) and west of the International Date Line. It may also be used in an imprecise geographic sense to refer to Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, vis-à-vis the Western Hemisphere which includes the Americas. In addition, it may be used in a cultural or geopolitical sense as a synonym for ‘Old World’.
The West:
In a political or economic context the term the “West” often includes developed nations such as Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.
Sorry; but that is silly. I will always look at such things in terms of geography the way it should be.
The thing is, even if you dont look at it from a geographical perspective, Japan is still an Eastern country, its cultural identity is Eastern. It may be a democratic nation, but that is not what determines a country as ‘Western’ or not. If that were the case, would you say that one day, if the Middle East becomes democratic, they would be ‘Western’ countries?
I agree with Esra’a this is indeed a strange direction to be taking this discussion.
Esra’a:
I would recommend interpreting comments according to established standards for the meaning of words. This cuts down on miscommunication.
Anyways, developed liberal democracies form a group of countries which one may generalize about, we need a term for them. “Western”, for the time being, is it, regardless of how that term came to be.
Tamara:
If the countries there became developed secular liberal democracies, then yes. Isn’t this what the lot of you keep fretting about with regards to “westernization”? It’s not like continental shift is about to move your countries to the western hemisphere any time soon.
Esra’a
Yes
Tor,
I fear you are mistaken, the desire not to become ‘Westernized’ on behalf of the Arab people at least, is mainly related to the cultural aspects of the ‘West’, such as dress, drinking and sex, although I do not say this is all.
There are certain countries, that although may be more ‘western’ or have similarities with the ‘west’, wills till never be ‘Western’ countries, such as all countries in Asia, and the Middle East. Look at people, thinkers, philosophers, psychologists that were interested in ‘Eastern’ or ‘Western’ thought, Carl Jung, Herman Hesse… these places won’t become ‘Western’ because they become democratic, that is just absurd.
And what happens if a country we consider to be ‘Western’ turns fascistic?? Will we then call it ‘Eastern’????
Tamara:
I know, I meant that “westernization” becomes rather meaningless if “western” is interpreted as a function of geography rather than as a series of societal qualities.
Tamara:
Then how do you explain the widespread notion that Japan and South Korea are already “western”? Kind of refutes your argument doesn’t it?
Tamara:
“Eastern” is not a term in the sense that western is. If the country gets messed up beyond recognition, we will cease to call it western.
Tor,
Are you joking?
If not; then how can you deny being a racist?
Esra’a:
Mostly yes.
If “western” is defined to mean “not backwards”, and it’s not all that far off (which is the point of the joke), then non-western countries being backwards becomes a truism. My concept of ‘western’ does not have an ethnic component, when South Africa get their economy up to par, they’ll be just as western as Australia, Germany and the US. South Korea and Japan are examples of western nations with an other than white ethnicity.
Russia and Belarus are examples of non-western nations of caucasian ethnicity, and much of eastern Europe is transitioning as we speak.
Tor,
Who calls Japan and South Korea Western countries??
Tamara:
href=”http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/11/16/raped-yet-punished/#comment-89630″>Anon guy for starters.
Actually lots of people do, why?
That’s “Anon guy for starters”.
Caucasian is not an ethnicity… Arabs, Persians and South Asians are also Caucasians.
Well it certainly is an ethnic group.
Anyway, the point stands that ethnicity neither guaranties nor bars a nation from being “western”. “western” is not an ethnic identity.
No it is not an ethnic identity, it goes far beyond that. I would like to see how many Japanese or South Korean people would call themselves ‘Western’ nations. And please Tor, I would like to know who or where these nations are officially labeled as such. Not just some random persons opinion.
I don’t think there is an official list of western nations, the term is colloquial.
And as I mentioned here, people from various areas have different criteria for what passes as western, in asia ethnicity is often considered part of the “western” identity, and Japan and South Korea would likely count themselves out for that reason. Americans tend to mix “the judeo-christian tradition” in as a criterion, which would disqualify Japan, and leave South Korea in limbo.
The term originated early during the cold war, as a reference to the non communist industrialized nations, then located in western Europe, North America and South-Eastern Oceania. As countries in east Asia and elsewhere grew to resemble these nations, they have been considered to be covered by the term to different degrees by different people. I don’t know of any formal definition, but actual usage varies.
Quotes from Wikipedia:
It’s a mess.
Scratch that, the term has apparently been in use since the division of the Roman empire
Well then doesn’t this prove the point? Should it not be the role of the people of a nation to determine their own identity? Where is the authenticity of an identity otherwise?
Would that not then also include Islam, also coming from the Abrahamic tradition?
here’s the facebook grp:
Oppose the flogging of a Saudi gang rape victim
‘Common Interest – Politics’
Tamara Wrote:
That depends, the answer would likely differ from individual to individual in those nations as well, and wikipedia has a different impression from mine regarding east asians perception of the term:
The South Koreans I know are warming up to the “western” label with the spread of christianity, and South Africans would likely self identify as westerners in spite of their economic situation, but I still think most Japanese consider “western” in part an ethnic identity. I don’t really know though. Anyways, the answer would tend to depend on which of the myriad criteria for delineating the west is being used.
‘The west’ is really just a glorified ‘us’. We being the capitalist wealthy free peoples. The term refers to those with whom we identify, hence the christian insistence to restrict the scope based on creed. Delineations may vary slightly depending on the topic being discussed, for instance Japan would be counted among the western countries when discussing geopolitics or economics, but not when discussing religion or cuisine.
A country that westernizes becomes western, no geographical criteria. You will be assimilated.
Tamara:
Devout Christians, who are usually the ones insisting on a religious element to the western identity beyond religious freedom, don’t recognize Islam as a ‘true’ religion. Hence the answer is no, they would not include Islam. Atheists and ‘apatheists’ who might go for the abrahamic or monotheistic categories usually consider freedom of religion a sufficient criteria.
I have already said that there are certain nations, and certain people that will identify with certain characteristics of ‘Western’ culture. There is no country in the world that is more cosmopolitan and international than the UAE. And at times it will be referred to as more ‘westernised’ than other Arab countries. But that does not imply that it will ever be a ‘Western’ nation. And not just for political reasons.
Well lets go over what has been said then and see what conclusions can be reached.
We have established that it is not entirely a geographical description of location.
We have established that it is a term that can be used with regards to:
Culture
Religion
Economy
Politics
And we have also agreed, I think, that there is a distinction between the way a particular people regards themselves, and of how others will perceive them.
As we have acknowledged that there will be differences among the people themselves.
Is this right so far?
As in I know they are, I don’t know any South Koreans.
Yes.
Japanese would consider themselves far easterners (nothing to do with ME) as regards their culture and religion but westerners if you are considering their politics and economy. Of course they are japanese first and foremost. It is nearly like SA, Koreans still after couple of generation in Japan are considered to be gaijin, i.e. outsider.
Eastern europeans would consider themselves westerners.
Russian would also consider themselves mainly westerners or europeans but first they are russians
South Korean – probably similar views to japanese, at least a few I talked to
Iranians may consider themselves easterners, but if you call them arabs they would consider you a racist.
And so it goes.
BTW Tamara I am not sure that I agree that UAE is the most cosmopolitan and international place on earth. It is international true, lots of extremely modern buildings, lots of businessmen from all over the world, but that does not mean that citizens of UAE are cosmopolitan.
So I showed your comments to my Japanese classmate. She disagrees entirely. Therefore what you’re saying is merely an opinon, it is not “fact” that Japanese is Western by political and economic standards. It is just stable. It really has nothing to do with being “Western.” Western does not necessarily imply that you are morally, culturally, intellectually, religiously, and economically superior, which seems to be partly your argument here.
Rightly so, even if they aren’t all economically and politically stable.
Esra’a Wrote:
And did she agree with mine, that the Japanese largely percieve ‘western’ to be a partially ethnic identity?
I bet her objection was that ‘westernness’ can not be determined on the basis of economic and political development alone, not that Japan is not comparable to what she percieves as ‘the west’ when measured by those metrics.
Esra’a
This is what I’ve been saying for a while now, the term ‘western’ doesn’t really have a solid definition, and usage varies both within countries and among them. The term appeared with the division of the roman empire, and associated division of christianity into the catholic and the eastern orthodox church, then associations shifted to prosperous liberal democracy vs communism and the third world during the cold war. Following the cold war, with the eastward expansion of NATO, democracy and capitalism, countries previously considered eastern are now considered western to varying degrees. The same holds true for previously impoverished countries now prosperous.
In east asia the term is understood in the context of an ‘east’ which is different from the one the term ‘western’ has been contrasted against in europe and north america. There is also a greater tendency to conflate nationality with ethnicity than in America especially, and Europe as well. (Here various nations are made up of people who are ethnically either identical or very similar, and the perception of ethnic minorities as foreign, understandable given that most of them are recent arrivals, is being associated with racism and surpressed)
They may also be influenced by the attitudes of many americans, who consider religious heritage part of the identity.
Esra’a
‘The west’, to people around here at least, is very similar to the term ‘us’. It is the transnational collection of countries with which we identify, and among which we count ourselves, anyone we percieve as identical to ourselves in every relevant respect is liable to be lumped in. Perceptions differ somewhat as to what is relevant, and that can change according to the topic discussed.
anonymous:
Esra’a:
Wikipedia:
For a South Asian, Arabs are Westerners… you guys are forgetting the fact that this Eastern/Western is in the eye of the beholder… definition varies based on who you are so STFU and move on.
another anonymous:
Well I would definately say that Dubai is one of the most cosmopolitan, international places in the world. And it is not just the buildings and businesses that make it so, the citizens of the UAE are extremely cosmopolitan. I lived there since 1986 and have seen the country change dramatically. I grew up with people from all over the world, something that has not been experienced to that extent by anyone I know who lived elsewhere.
Please Start a new thread if you want to debate what is “Western”. Western has traditionally been Western Europe, Canada, The U.S., Australia, New Zealand…because of it’s size, wealth, and being formerly a part of the British Empire…South Africa is generally included as well….although a strong case could be made against that one. I think that it fundamentally has to do with law and order, democracy(however imperfect), capitalism. If Japan, Korea, or the Phillipines is included….then it is a reflection of U.S. influence over them when they were run by the U.S….on the surface there is much about these countries that appears Western..however they have much deeper older traditions of a communal kind which is at great odds with Western notions of individualism…..but I say again….what does all of this have to do with the “Qatif” Girl and how she was “RAPED yet Punished!”???
Did anyone hear that the Saudi Foreign Minister has been quoted as saying that he thought that the court decision was a bad decision? Do you think the international reaction…..i.e…. comments from countries and human rights organizations on the case are helping matters? Does anyone have a sense as to how big a subject this actually is in Saudi…anyone monitoring Arabic or English message boards…chat rooms from the area about reactions to all of this?
Geez guys, what do you think? This story hit the US media and everybody I talked to thinks you ‘rabs are animals. Right or wrong, all arabs get painted with the same brush…..and it comes off as very uncivilized, barbaric and (most importantly) as UNFAIR. How do you guys feel about it?
RE Konrad
I talked with some friends and we all (apart from one person) agreed that decision was wrong. Some people blamed the arab culture, some people blamed the officials in SA, some people blamed religion. Most of us think that the decision was barbaric and should not have taken place in 21 century. However neither I not my friends thinks “you ‘rabs are animals”. You are generalizing or perhaps we have different kinds of friends.