Thanks for this post. I found it thoughtful and articulate.

I’ve quoted you here.

Much respect,

Maya Norton

The New Jew: Blogging Jewish Philanthropy

I think we are basically making the same argument using different language. From my point of view the examples you give do not contradict my point. Supporting a corrupt government X may well be in political interests of the US (or any other country, since the US is not the only ones using these tactics). Same goes for all the other examples. So I think we are saying the same thing on this point.

I did google the CIA drug trafficking and came across this article on Wikipedia. Frankly there was not much. I think my main point about CIA was that as powerful as it appears, we should be careful to maintain a line between legitimate criticism and conspiracy theories. By saying that, I am not trying to personally attack anyone. Quite the opposite. I really enjoy the very informative and down-to-earth conversation here, and it would be sad if it would take off to the wonderland of conspiracy theories.

As to the other point, maybe i did not explain myself well or (more likely) made a wrong assumption. I didn’t read your comment as assuming any kind of CIA involvement in creating of FB, but i did read in it an assumption of cooperation between the two. In any case, if Carnivore is penetrating FB and listening to conversations there, it still does not express any threat on any government, unless of course this government is using FB for some classified communication (which would be a little bit bizarre i think). And we can continue theorizing about potential scenarios forever

I think we agree on the main point, the involvement or not of CIA in FB is not the core reason for it being banned. That is the important point.

Certain actions of the CIA have been solely to benefit the interests of the people in power, politically and economically. one e.g. to keep a corrupt foreign government in power, by aiding in fighting off the resistance, because that corrupt government is supporting their economic interests, and thus their political dominance. There is also evidence that they have been, on more than one occassion been involved in drug trafficking from Latin America. Just do a search in google and the CIA’s involvement in certain issues, especially in a number of Latin American countries, there are released CIA documents as proof.

I am not sure I understand your point about ‘Carnivore’. This is an internet monitoring device, created by the FBI to enable the government to access and monitor information on the internet, so that they can track people. I’m not sure if you thought this, but I was not saying they created FB etc.. I was just saying they are able to, and are also likely to, monitor it and sites like it.

I am not sure what you mean by CIA’s action going “beyond the political interests of their governments”. Are you suggesting that they have their own, independent set of interests? Or i completely misread you?

Also, as to desire to access information i don’t think they are very different from others. I do agree that they have more ability to gain it compared to others.

At the same time, the US has an entire federal agency/program dedicated to developing solutions of internet monitoring (i think the system is called “carnivore”, but i may be mistaken). As far as i understand this, if it would be so simple for CIA to plug into Google/FB/other database, there would be no need to spend millions or maybe billions of dollars on creating something like that. Am I wrong?

Not related to spying and CIA, only today i had a conversation about how wonderful it would be to have access to FB database for social research. I think we could find some interesting things…

I was flabbergasted when Tamara answered in a way that suggested they were indeed undermining islam, among other things.

I don’t think I actually did suggest that. I said:

The CIA is involved in far more than trying to undermine Islam

I think that actually suggests that the CIA have more important things to do than undermine Islam. They are involved in much more cynical dangerous things.

I don’t think you know even that, I think you merely suspect they’re doing something, and have decided a-priori to oppose it.

I don’t suspect they are doing something. Everyone knows they are doing something. I do not claim to know what precisely they are doing. And I do not claim that that is all they do, or that everyone involved with the CIA is part of this type of thing. What we do know is that there have been and there continues to be instances where the CIA has been/is exposed of committing certain crimes, (even illegal for the CIA).

I understand Tamara is something of a Deist,

Would you care to elaborate? I’m not quite sure how you would come to such a conlcusion based on what we have been talking about, and also how this is even relevant?

so I’m attempting to rule out the possibility that she is taking the Spencer line on Islam in claiming the CIA is undermining it.

I did not say the CIA was ‘undermining Islam’.

Dima,

As to CIA itself, I don’t think it is different from any other intelligence force. They all act in the (political) interests of their governments.

I think their actions go beyond the political interests of their government. And undoubtedly most intelligence forces act similarly.

I think however that you are mistaken about the ability and desire of the CIA when it comes to gaining access to information on FB or any other sites that may be of interest. And as I said before, the CIA is, more commonly than not, unliable for their actions.

So, i doubt FB and other social networking websites are getting banned because of the CIA threats. I am afraid they are getting banned because because of the grassroots interaction that is happening there, similarly to interaction that is happening on this website, similarly to the conversation we are having here…

Well that’s exactly it!

As to CIA itself, I don’t think it is different from any other intelligence force. They all act in the (political) interests of their governments.

Of course, websites such as FB and others have a lot of information about us (which we put there voluntarily), but that does not mean that CIA, or other intelligence agencies have access to it. There is a rather developed legal infrastructure that guards websites from such abuse and there is a very vibrant civil society that monitors it all. So, it is not that CIA can just knock on the FB’s door an plug a pipe into their server.

Just look at all the buzz around FB opening its platform for targeted advertisement, and imagine what would happen if CIA tried gaining access to FB’s database (or more so to Google’s database, which is much more serious deal than FB). Only recently there were numerous articles about worldwide security forces’ frustration with Skype’s encryption, because they cannot intercept conversations taking place on that platform.

So, i doubt FB and other social networking websites are getting banned because of the CIA threats. I am afraid they are getting banned because because of the grassroots interaction that is happening there, similarly to interaction that is happening on this website, similarly to the conversation we are having here…

Perhaps they should have executed them more humanely. And I do thing backing fascists against communists was the right thing to do during the cold war, otherwise they would either have aligned with the soviets for support, or been overthrown by those that would.

… you have no moral high ground any more… you are either sick or fucked in the head.

These communists you speak of where fighting against fascist regimes that the US supported. They put these communists into planes… and when high enough, threw them out. I don’t think that is in any way justifiable.

Perhaps they should have executed them more humanely. And I do thing backing fascists against communists was the right thing to do during the cold war, otherwise they would either have aligned with the soviets for support, or been overthrown by those that would.

Tamara:

And I do not know what you mean when you refer to Esra’a’s Islam.

The variation that supports womens and minority rights and objects to terrorism. I could understand the allegation that the CIA was undermining Islam as Hamas and Al-Qaeda knows it, that’s what they ought to be doing.

Tamara:

All I do know though, is they are committing great crimes in the interest of the powerful in America and their allies.

I don’t think you know even that, I think you merely suspect they’re doing something, and have decided a-priori to oppose it.

Esra’a

Why do you always have to bring up Islam and then associate each thread on this site with it?

Sorry, it was just the first contemporary, middle eastern, gripe against the cia that entered my mind, and then I was flabbergasted when Tamara answered in a way that suggested they were indeed undermining islam, among other things. I understand Tamara is something of a Deist, so I’m attempting to rule out the possibility that she is taking the Spencer line on Islam in claiming the CIA is undermining it.

This wasn’t planned. I thought I would get some sort of rationalization for opposing the cia in the middle east in the present. Or maybe it would just get people thinking who didn’t seem to be. (about that issue)

I’m happy to let it rest now.

They were undermining communism and communist proxies.

These communists you speak of where fighting against fascist regimes that the US supported. They put these communists into planes… and when high enough, threw them out. I don’t think that is in any way justifiable.

And overthrowing DEMOCRATICALLY elected leaders… leaders whom the CIA thought were “Commies”. This include the democratically elected leader in Iran, Mohammed Mosaddeq.

These communists you speak of where fighting against fascist regimes that the US supported. They put these communists into planes… and when high enough, threw them out. I don’t think that is in any way justifiable.

And I do not know what you mean when you refer to Esra’a’s Islam.
All I do know though, is they are committing great crimes in the interest of the powerful in America and their allies. They are also completely unliable for their actions.

The CIA is involved in far more than trying to undermine Islam, and this is not a new thing. Just have a look into the history of their involvement in certain nations in Central and South America, Africa, the Middle East or Asia.

They were undermining communism and communist proxies.

Do you really think they are looking to undermine Esra’as Islam though?

Well that just explains it all.

http://forecasthighs.wordpress.com/2007/11/25/syrias-relationship-status-complicated/

Come on, I know you’re not into the whole “they’re out to undermine Islam” angle, so what could they possibly be up to?

Dude, they’re called the CIA for a reason. If I knew what they’re up to, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be sipping an espresso with the president and high-fiving Condi over a game of charades.