The hateful chants of children in protests
November 26th, 2007Below is a video op-ed concerning a protest I attended a year and a half ago. It’s old, but the message is as relevant as ever today. It still happens, which is why I chose to publish this.
(Embed this video)
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It takes guts posting something like this. I don’t know how you do it, girl, but keep it up. This is some good stuff.
Not really. All it takes is a digital camera and an opinion.
I hesitated to post this video for the longest time because I felt that people were going to use it against Bahrainis. We’re not all like this. But we might be one day, if we let these things slide. I am glad I finally posted it.
Pretty tame considering. This won’t get anyone exited, the people looking to get upset have far better material.
I don’t get that comment.
People, or at least I, have been desensitized to hateful chants and indoctrination of children by the numerous clips supplied by islam-critics. They won’t consider this juicy enough to spend their readerships time on, and their readership wouldn’t get exited.
Who is they?
This video is for us. It’s meant to be an apology, for something that I think is wrong, and for something that is continuing to this day. This is a public condemnation, so that when it happens, people don’t whine “omg where are the Arab-Muslims condemning this behavior?”
Don’t mind Tor. He just thinks everything being posted here is for his eyes and pleasure only.
Don’t be mean. He’s just saying what’s on his mind.
Murad Wrote:
This place caters to me, do you have a problem with that?
Esra’a Wrote:
They are the islam-critics mentioned in the previous sentence.
I was responding to this:
Esra’a Wrote:
You have nothing to worry about, this doesn’t make the cut.
Condemnation duly noted.
I don’t think you really understand what’s going on.
Firstly, this has nothing to with Islam, or Islam critics. Secondly, you don’t understand the reasoning behind why I did not choose to post this right away during the heated time when the war took place.
I don’t care what you think about this, because it really makes no difference at all. I care what the people in this rally would think, should they see it. You are not my concern. I don’t care whether this makes the cut for you and your friends. This is a local problem, and one addressed by a local to other locals and Israelis whom this directly concerns.
So please, spare me the “this isn’t juicy” bullshit. This isn’t about you, or what you think of it. This is about us, the youth of this country.
And finally, seeing a bunch of kids say this, really does feed the MEMRI addicts. Don’t tell me it doesn’t. It does. Just like my article on the Arab sex sites fed them a banquet of hate-mongering propaganda, this will too. Seriously, don’t sit here and tell me “it doesn’t cut it,” this is exactly the kind of material that certain people want to get their hands on.
I think we are talking past each other.
This:
was meant to be funny.
This:
I get,
and this:
I don’t see happening. Maybe I’m wrong, we’ll see.
I think I’m gonna cry. And tear down all my walls. Therefore I must use caps.
THIS IS A LOCAL PROBLEM JUST LIKE THE SEX THREAD WAS A LOCAL PROBLEM BUT SOME ASSHOLES ARE GOING TO COME HERE AND MISUSE IT AND TWIST MY WORDS AND MAKE US SEEM LIKE A DEATH CULT WHEN IN FACT I AM NOT ADDRESSING YOU OR THEM BUT RATHER OUR LOCALS SO THAT THEY SEE WHAT IS GOING ON AND HAVE A HEART TO FIX THIS BULLSHIT AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? BECAUSE I TOOK NO PAUSE.
That’s pretty sad, but hopefully people won’t see this protest and judge Bahrain based on this.
It’s like judging Australia based on the Cronulla Beach protests/riots in December 2005.
Esra’a
Huh? Which part of that did I not acknowledge in my last post?
I’ve understood you perfectly from the beginning, It’s you who have been misunderstanding me.
On a more interesting note, if this is in Bahrain where people usually dress in tank tops, does that mean that only cultural conservatives go to protest Israel? Or do women dress in black for political events? Not to be creepy or anything, but what were you wearing? Would you have blended in with that crowd?
Seriously Tor. You are taking it too far and it’s time for you to shut the hell up. If you refuse to get it, it’s not my fault. Blame your reading comprehension problem.
Don’t comment in this thread anymore, because you obviously have nothing relevant to say.
OMG NAZI and GET ON MSN.
What kind of people would say “death to Israel”, Tank top and mini skirt wearing girls would or these ninjas?
n0000b I’ll kill you, I edited it to seem nicer. But that is how I really felt like! YOU QUOTED ME TOO SOON.
I’ll be on MSN later because there are some people there that I owe things to and I am avoiding them. But it ain’t drugs I promise. If I block them they’ll find out and I’d be in hell and these kids will be chanting “DEATH TO ESRA LOL” next. Actually if I pause halfway through they are really saying “death to Esra.” How creepy is that?
Edit my comment then u noob
No it’s funny.
Me too quick for you and and and… death to something bla bla something… I am so bored… fuck 30 more minutes till work is over.
You owe me 50 dinars, I’m waiting.
I already tried to change the subject, does that get me off the hook?
Jina:
According to the stereotype, that lot, but I’m trying to go light on stereotypes about Bahrain since they have proven unreliable today. Still, I thought opposition to Israel in actual conflicts was popular beyond the ninja community, and Esra’a went to that protest thinking she would fit in, so was there a separate section for regular people? Or was Esra’a just hoodwinked in regards to the nature of that protest?
I’ve learned stuff about Bahrain today, and I’m eager to learn more. If protesting against Israel is the exclusive domain of a small segment (ninjas) of Bahraini society, while Bahrain is the most protesting country around, That’s worth knowing.
If rallies are usually segregated, with the quran-thumpers looking ominous in one corner, and a bunch of regular people hanging around elsewhere, that might explain why regular people don’t get in the news. Choosing between footage of regular people burning flags, and black humanoid figures burning flags, media will choose the humanoids every time.
Not really, most don’t give a damn. And sizable amount actually HATE the Palestinians, they think Palestinians are pests.
We went out for milkshakes after this protest, like nothing just happened.
The protest after this one had a barbecue stand.
“DEATH TO ISRAEL! Oh and one chicken biriani please.”
I have not laughed this hard in a very long time.
I don’t think you’re giving yourself enough credit. It also takes — what is the expression? — intellectual honesty. The willingness to expose negative or painful facts for the sake of open and honest discussion. I think you’re correct: you may have posted this as a wake up call to Bahrainis, but it is indeed “exactly the kind of material that certain people want to get their hands on.”
Some will be glad to see it for the “hate-mongering propaganda” effect they can use it for. Others will be happy to see it because in the past they’ve made criticisms about indoctrinating children with hate and been called ignorant racists. It did take guts to post this, knowing there would be unpleasant consequences, so don’t sell yourself short.
There will be a few who are simply glad that a previously taboo or denied subject is now a bit more out in the open. I hope that will apply to some Westerners, as well as your fellow Bahrainis.
Sorry, I meant to include this:
“There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world.” –Thomas Jefferson, 1826
Thanks a lot for your comment. It’s really nice.
free-esra.org here it comes…
I want you to design the banner for it. I will not have my campaign have one of those free WP themes. I’ll ask my friends to check the design and IE compatibility on a daily basis.
POIFECT!!! and get on msn or or or… i am bored and hungry… forgot to bring lunch gahh…
Hi Esraa,
I read this site a lot and I’d like to thank you for creating it. Unfortunately I do not agree with you. I don’t see anything wrong with saying “death to Israel” as long as the person saying it understands the meaning of the phrase. There is nothing wrong with saying death to a racist state. It is the same as saying “Death to Germany” if you disagreed with its Nazi policies, or “Death to South Africa” if you disagreed with it’s apartheid policies. I can believe that the state of Israel, as it is conceptionalized today, and as it has been conceptionalized at it’s inception,should not exist. I cannot agree that a state that was created on a racist premise – i.e. that this land belongs to Jews only – should exist. However this doesn’t mean that I am against the existence of Israel in it’s totality. As the Priest Paul Oestreicher of the Anglican Church best puts it -
“Once, in the days of Hitler, there was another Germany represented by those in concentration camps alongside Jews and Gypsies, the martyrs who are celebrated today. There is such an Israel too. Its voices are still free to speak, though often reviled and misunderstood. That Israel has my solidarity, as all Jews have my love and prayers.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1713544,00.html (link to the rest of the article)
It’s sad that you seperate the policies of Israel towards Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza from zionism and its actual existence. For these policies are a mere extension of the zionist ideology. Intellectually they cannot be seperated. This is why peace movements in Israel that do seperate the two such as “Peace Now” become stronger and weaker, and change their beliefs depending on the polical climate. On the otherhand peace movements in Israel that do not apologize for zionism and see the link between it and the current occupation, such as Gush Shalom, although smaller in number, still remain consistent in what they say.
There is no such thing as “extreme zionism” as you say in other parts of this site. Zionism is zionism. It’s a form of racism and it must, as an ideology be eliminated. How weird would it be if I created a country in Africa for Whites only and killed off or scared away the blacks in half of the country. In the other half of the country, the blacks still existed and were under the occupation of the newly founded white country. Over time, the blacks started to hate the whites – especially the black children who knew nothing but an occupation. Now, I, a supposed enlighted Arab comes along, and say no I am against this extreme racism that these whites have. This extreme racism is manifested by their occupation of the other half of the land that is majority black. I am okay with some racism though – i.e. saying that the country that the whites created, should be for whites only. Now how ridiculous would that sound?
This is not to say of course, that I condone the use of meaningless slogans such as “death to Israel” especially when the people chanting these slogans (in this case children) may not have the capacity to distinguish between the racist Israeli zionist state and Israel people who although may sitll espouse to this sickening ideology, should still be viewed as human beings.
Dear Rasha,
Thank you very much for your comment, I appreciate the input. However I find myself disagreeing with much of what you say.
Zionism in the traditional sense is not meant to be a form of racism. It currently is, with some of the more extreme Zionists using the term to cleanse Israel of “Arabs” and non-Jews. But first and foremost Zionism is a political movement. It doesn’t have to be eliminated because Zionism as an ideology is not harmful to us. The only thing the movement proposed is that a state of Israel, a homeland for the Jews is formed and this was indeed achieved in 1948. The concept was formed because Jews everywhere were being persecuted against, anti-Semiticism was on the rise, and a state was the only way they can secure their safety and religion. How that state came about is rather disturbing, but it’s not what Zionism originally stood for. Nowadays the term has been misused and redefined as Israeli nationalism, which comes in many forms, almost all of which I disagree with (the total disregard for Palestinian human rights for example is disgusting). What about Muslim Zionists? They exist. I meet a lot of Arab Zionists too. They disagree with Israel, yet they support the right of Israel to exist. Would you argue against the Muslim scholars who state that the state of Israel is supported within the Quran?
Translation of Surah 17:104 (al-Isra)-
“And we said after him [i.e, Pharaoh] to the Children of Israel, “Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise [i.e, appointment] of the Hereafter, we will bring you forth in [one] gathering.”
The Quran acknowledges the existence of Israel.
It’s not sad, it’s necessary. If you want to eliminate Zionism, it’s like saying you want to eliminate Israel. What you want to eliminate is injustice and racism. We need to put Israel in its place; making sure that no more human rights abuses take place in its name, no more illegal settlements, etc. And a lot of Israelis are working on that with their Palestinian friends. Some of them share this website with us. It’s really not fair that we want to take their country away from them and then mock their belief in their own state by wanting to eliminate Zionism or justifying chants like “death to Israel.” Because I am putting myself in my Israeli friends’ shoes right now, and it’s very unfair and unpleasant for us to be this way towards them. I dislike their government, and the unethical standards of the IDF. I feel the same way about Egypt. I dislike their government, and I consider the country to be a police state that abuses many human rights. I don’t see anyone saying “death to Egypt.”
Hi Esraa,
I have to get back to studying soon- this is my way of procrastinating, lol. It is difficult for me to understand how you could say that Zionism as an ideology, did not harm us or at least, did not harm the Palestinian people. Zionism was created because Jews were fleeing genocide and persecution from Europe. However, the problem with zionism is that it is based on the presumption that the people living in the land which is now israel, whether you want to call them arabs or palestinians did not exist. The problem is that they did. They existed and the zionists did not know what to do with them, so they massacured them, destroyed entire villages, forced many to flee their homes. Many also fled because they were scared and like other refugees they expected to come back to their homes after the hostilities were over. These are facts that you cannot deny and revisionist scholars in Israel such as Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe have documented these actocracies. Zionism did not start as a racist ideology. And your right at the beginning it had nothing to do with Arabs – in fact, the original candidate for the zionist state was Argentina. Zionism started as something really idealistic – “a land without a people for a people without a land.” The entire thing started getting messed up when they realized that there was a peopleand these people had to be eliminated in order to fulfill the dream of a Jewish state.
Concerning your(and a few random Muslim religious scholars) interpretation of the Quran, first of all, I consider it extremely offensive that you’d use a religious book to justify Israel’s existence. What if I’m not Muslim and I don’t believe in the Quran or the Torah? What if I’m athiest and I don’t believe in God? The Quran, Bible and Torah should never be used to justify political ideologies and racist policies. This was done before of course – colonialism, slavery, anti-semitism and the ban on interracial marriages was justified by the bible, the oppression of Bahai’is in Iran, anti-semitism (distinguished from anti-zionism), and “jihadist” operations are justified through the Quran. Also, if zionists managed to create a state in Argentina (that wasn’t politically feasible so that why that never happened) would they have the Quran and Torah to justify it’s creation?
As for the verse itself, I as a Muslim, find it hard to believe that God would allow a group of people to go and kick another group of people out of their land, that they have been living in for centuries. The Israel that the Quran and Bible talk about is different from the Israel today. Just because it is called “Israel” doesn’t mean the same thing. The Bible does promise that one day the Jews will come back to Israel after their exile. However, this does not mean that the Jews can unilaterally end their exile (through force, oppression and massacures) before God willed for that exile to end. This interpretation of the scriptures was the dominant one before zionism came into existence. [See http://www.nkusa.org Otherwise, Jews would have been calling for their own state a long time ago (instead they waited patiently in exile). If God promised my descendents a house, should my descendents wait until God fulfills “his” promise or should they go to the house, take it over, kick the people living there out of it, and then tell the entire world that what they did is okay because God promised them this house anyways.
The founders of zionism were secular and wanted to create a state for jews so that they can escape persecution. They chose Palestine because it was the most politically feasible alternative and they justified this choice because of the historical connection of Jews to Palestine.
I realize you disagree with me but there are many Israelis and Jews who don’t such as the Israelis in Gush Shalom, Norman Finklestein, Noam Chomsky, Benny Norris, Illan Pappe among others.
Oh one more thing.. Egypt and Israel are different. Egypt is a police state. But its existence is not based on the elimination of an entire people and their history from a land. Israel is a lot like America and Australia when they was first created. But the difference is of course, the Native Americans and the Aborigines were actually successfully eliminated and now Austrailia and America are dealing with that past. The Palestinians though, have not been eliminated. So instead of being something in the long distant past, they are a current reality.
Hi Rasha, unfortunately you do not understand the Jewish connection to Israel and Judea/Samaria/West Bank/Palestine. Jews, as a collective people — a nation — have our patrimony, culture, ethnicity, institutions, philology (language), liturgy (religious rites), folklore, national heroes, and archeological treasures directly related to that land. We meet all the relevant criteria for being an indigenous community. We use the most ancient names for cities and towns. Much of our legal code is uniquely specific to there. You may also be interested to know that the only native-born rulers of that land before and after Roman occupation have been Jews; everyone else, for thousands of years, has been a foreigner. Whereas it’s true that there are many issues to work out, you are unfair to make Zionism sound as if it’s on par with a white, settler, colonialist movement in Africa, Australia, or the USA. Zionism represents a return of many of a land’s original inhabitants after a long exile, not a foreign invasion. Yes, there are problems with discrimination, but it is not at all the way you make it sound. Just go to Haifa and see for yourself the level of coexistence that really does occur.
You insist that Zionism is a racist ideology built upon massacring and eliminating an entire people, and that chanting death to it does not seem bad. Although chanting death to a nation is sociopathic, I can nevertheless understand how you can have preconceived notions about Israel given all the propaganda that is out there, so I hope you will keep an open mind and open heart and let the evidence speak for itself.
For example …
The Palestinian population has significantly increased under Jewish sovereignty. Palestinians practice their culture, language, religions, and customs generally without interference. Neither of these jive with being eliminated. Is it racist and eliminationist to give Palestinians functional control over the Jews most holy site? And let us also remember that Israel is the only nation in the Middle East that has willfully relinquished control over large swaths of land it has controlled, even without a peace agreement.
If Zionism is so racist and eliminationist, how do you explain this?
Or this?
Or this?
I hope you will allow your opinion to evolve as you continue to learn more. As far as I’m concerned, that’s what we’re all here for.
It should also be pointed out, on a separate but equal note, that these are little kids who are chanting about death and politics in Esra’s video, and they deserve to be treated far better than that by adults who are responsible for nurturing them. Those kids are being used. Thanks to Esra’a for upholding the rights of those children.
Because your argument is typical of many Muslims, yet not you or they see the relevance of Israel’s existence to the Quran, which I personally find offensive. Because you’re denying what’s there. It’s my faith, and I choose to justify my opinion based on the Quran because as a Muslim it’s a duty for me to do so and believe what’s there. It’s not offensive. It’s my personal understanding and you can choose whether to respect it or not.
Very well said Esra’a and PV.
I would like to take this opportunity to ask Arab readers a few questions, that I, as an Israeli, don’t understand. And ahead of time I will say, I sincerely hope that these comments don’t come off as racist, and I appologize if they do.
So here goes. Can someone please explain to me why Arabs hate Israel so so so much? I know Israel has some terrible policies in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon. In the past we’ve also had confrontations with Syria, Egypt, and Iraq. But seriously, what has Israel done to people in the Gulf? Did we ever directly attack SA, UAE, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, or Kuwait, the countries themselves or their people?
Now I sometimes watch Arab TV wirh my Iraqi grandmother. Why does it seem like the first 10 minutes of the news are always about how Israel oppresses Arabs? Is there really nothing else going on in the Arab world?
Over the course of my life I have met plenty of Arabs who tell me things like “I was always taught to hate Jews but I actually think they’re ok”. Why are Arabs children taught to hate? I say this because when I grew up, I was never taught that Arabs and Muslims are bad. And most of the people I knew as a child in Tel Aviv were similarly taught to be tolerant of Arabs. When I was 9, socialist Zionist peace activists came to my school to recruit people. In contrast, no right-wing Zionists came to recruit. On the 1 TV channel we had in the 80s, there was a children’s show called “פרפר נחמד” (kind butterfly). One of the main characters on that show, Uzi Khitman, was a peace activist who played peace songs and embedded them in the heads of millions of our children. So how do you guys think we feel when we see your children, over and over again, chanting “Death to Israel”? Or the Hamas Mickey mouse video about being a martyr? Do you really think that is helping the Palestinian cause?
And can someone please explain to me why Arabs are taught (and many preach) that they are the only victims in this conflict? Why we always hear about the Palestinian Nakba, but never about the Jewish Nakba, the Jewish expulsion from Arab lands in 1948-52? My grandparents were expelled from Iraq when my grandmother was pregnant with my mother. My mother was born in a refugee camp near Haifa, and when they were in the hospital a few days later all our belongings were stolen from the refugee camp. My uncle, whose family has lived in Jerusalem since before the crusades, was also expelled in 1948.
And did you ever hear about how the Arabs/Palestinians of Hebron murdered every Jew in the town in 1929? These Jews have never left during the Roamn expulsion 2000 years ago, they have been there just as long as the Arabs who killed them. In 1939, Arabs murdered Jews who were fleeing Nazi Europe, one time killing over 300 in a single day. In the 1960s, it was Nasser who said that he will throw all the Jews in the sea, but it was Zionism that was equated with racism. Israelis are well versed in massacres we are responsible for, from Deir Yassin to Kibya to Kfar Qassam to Sabra and Shatila and Qana. These incidents are looked down upon in our society. In contrast, Hamas and Hezbollah shelling civilians inside the green line is cheered in the Arab world.
And 5 years ago my cousin was hanging out with her friends in the mall. When she went to the bathroom, a Palestinian came up to one of her friends to ask something, and then detonated his explosives belt. If my cousin didn’t go to the bathroom she could have been killed or seriously maimed. Afterwards the family of the killer were celebrating that he killed and injured a bunch of 12 year old girls. What I don’t understand is, why does Arab society accept this vile vicious celebration at the death of children. To my knowledge, Israeli society doesn’t celebrate when an IDF soldier kills a Palestinian youth. And if you can show that this happens, please tell us sp that we can correct these faults in our society.
Sorry this turned out into my bitch fest. I really would like to make peace with the Arabs and create a Palestinian state, but whenever I read comments that look like regurgitated propaganda I get sick and lose the willpower to fight the extremists in my country.
The thing is, we tend to complain so much, as if we actually make an effort to help the Palestinians.
It’s not like we invest in Palestine, send troops to fight there, or build shelters for Palestinian refugees. We consider Israel a threat to the legitimacy of our Arab states, and that’s pretty much as far as it goes. We oppose illegal expansions, torture, some immoral acts by the IDF, etc. And what else do we do?
I am pro-Palestine, pro-Lebanon, pro-Arab in general. To this day I oppose any human rights violation happening in the name of either Palestine, Lebanon or Israel and then I realized, hey. There are many Israelis and Jews who fight the IDF, their government, and are building homes and shelters for their Palestinian brethren. Have we for once acknowledged their efforts?
We’ve created an enemy that doesn’t exist, expanded on our imaginations, submitted ourselves to collectivist ideologies in the name of pan-Arab nationalism and we’re total hypocrites. Why don’t my Arab and Muslim friends oppose the hatred we see against Palestinians from Arabs?
What about this Kuwaiti author who wants Palestinians dead? Or the Facebook group that want to eliminate Palestinians’ existence within Lebanon?
No because we’re perfect right… it’s always just the Israelis who threaten our existence. It’s not like we Arabs hate our neighbors more than we hate Israel, right?
I pride myself on having Israeli friends who recognize their problems, admit them, and make a huge effort to oppose them, helping, befriending, and building the lives of many Palestinians. I acknowledge these efforts, admire them, and thank them for it. Because frankly, I don’t see my Arab friends doing the same.
I agree with you Esra’a, I have good Israeli friends too, they are peace activists and they work on enhancing co-existence between Israelis and Palestinians.
On another front, we in Dude of Arabia’s Fan Club are going to sign a petition to demand that Dude of Arabia should the right to comment here on this forum, if this forum is the oasis of freedom it claims to be, there has been a great injustice done to our idol (Dude of Arabia) and we demand that it stops.
We look forward to hearing a positive response from your side.
If Dude of Arabia (whom I suspect is you) finds the manners to post here without threatening our members with death or attempting to hack our website, he is more than welcome to come back. Otherwise, sorry, but threatening comments are against our comment policy and our host considers hack attempts to be illegal. No petition or amount of complaints will let us lift the ban on threatening and abusive comments. It has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with constructive dialogue. We have standards. If you don’t meet them, you don’t get to post here. We couldn’t be any clearer or lenient than this.
Esra’a,
Thank you for your comment. I have been following what you write for some months on this blog, and in many ways you and people like you represent the answer to my stated frustrations. I was just really surprized to read that Rasha (who was one of my favorite authors on this site until yesterday) thinks it’s ok for children to say “Death to Israel”. In the long run, I think Israel’s best security can only be achieved with a viable, democratic, financially independent Palestinian state. But getting there is very risky for Israel, and we need all the help moderate Arabs can give us in order to get there without destroying ourselves or the region.
PS – I have loads of respect for you for running this website. You really do bring people fromm many backgrounds with many different viewpoints together, and although the discussions are at times tense, I still think they are worthwhile. Besides, what is more Middle Eastern than long political arguments
?
Levylevthuglife,
The Rasha above is NOT Rasha from Saudi Arabia, our author here!
I was worried that people were going to confuse the two… I hope people read further enough to this comment to see that they are 2 different people.
Thanks very much for your comment. I really appreciate the encouragement.
I think it is important to remember that Zionism is a complicated, multifaceted ideology, not some monolithic, uniform hammer that came crashing down on the Palestinians in 1948; to think such a thing is no different than assuming that Stalinism is the standard of Socialism and Communism everywhere. The truth is, Zionism has a complicated internal history, with lots of internal fighting between widely diverse camps over control of the movement and its direction. Just like in any movement, one or two camps eventual win and assume control, while all the others fade from memory like branches cleaved off an ideological tree.
The victors in the fight to control Zionism were the right-wing fascist types in the Stern Gang and centrists like Ben Gurion and Weizmann. But there were groups opposed to their hostile takeover and overt racism against the Palestinians, one Zionist group called Brit Shalom wanted a secular one-state with equal rights for Jews and Arabs. But they had no guns to put up a fight in the war, and no real support from the majority of Zionists and Palestinians who were just itching for an all-out war to settle the business once and for all.
History is written by the winners, but we should always look back to the beginnings of things like Zionism and the Soviet Union and realize what they could’ve been.
Esra’a, There are things a Westerner can not say first without causing offense, and even once the subject is broached it’s best to tread carefully. So, in reference to your 5am post I’ll just say I agree with you and I have the same impression of how things are.
civilwar, Brit Shalom is still alive and kicking, you know.
Esra,
You have a level of political sophistication that some others here do not.which is why they either dont understand you or misrepresnt you.
As stated earlier,Jews have a several thousand year history in Israel,as well as Egypt. It is not and should not be exclusively Arab,nor Jewish. And in fact,based on biblical accounts jews and arabs are cousins.
I am American, and lived for several years in Israel. I had,of course many Israeli friends.. several palestinian friends,as well as Beduoin friends. I can say without hesitation,that Israeli schools do not teach systematic hate of arabs though people have their own private opinions.Israelis are sick and tired of war.They are upset that they have become what they detest the most. It is antithetical to Judaiism to be occupying land,and would gladly LEAVE arab territories… if they knew that upon leaving..they wouldnt be shot in the back! Israelis want peace.. want to live in cooperation with peoples and countries surronding them. Those of you that have been fed,brought up on and assimilated hate and propaganda.. are sadly out of touch with realities. Israeli mothers mourn their children when they die in war… they dont glorify their death because it was while on duty in Gaza.. THEY DONT WANT TO BE IN GAZA!! STOP THE HATE and watch peace fill that vacuum! Peace,contentment for all of us in the new year… please????
“Because your argument is typical of many Muslims, yet not you or they see the relevance of Israel’s existence to the Quran, which I personally find offensive. Because you’re denying what’s there. It’s my faith, and I choose to justify my opinion based on the Quran because as a Muslim it’s a duty for me to do so and believe what’s there. It’s not offensive. It’s my personal understanding and you can choose whether to respect it or not.”
The problem with you Esraa is that you think you have the entire world figured out. You have a very essentialist understanding of what Muslims think and believe. You choose to stereotype an entire group of people and to stereotype my arguement into one which you think only a typical muslim can make. Not all anti-zionists are muslims or muslims with particularly strong muslim beliefs. In fact, many people see religion all together as the anti-thesis of being pro-palestinian, as dogmatic interpretations of religion can be viewed as the entire cause of the palestinian issue. You cannot say that my arguement is typical of muslims because you are not the spokesperson of what muslims believe. Like I said, many anti-zionists are not muslims and are against Islam as a belief system. In fact, two of the most prominent anti-zionist activists in the United States, Edward Said and Asad Abu Khalil are athiests. Yet surprise surprise to you, they make the same arguements I do. Just as bringing a verse from the Quran to justify zionism doesn’t work for them, and the numerous non-muslim anti-zionist activists, it doesn’t work for me. Although I realize that religion plays a role in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, because it shapes the consciousness of both sides, I do not use religion to justify or attack the arguements of either side. Just like I believe that the biblical (and according to you) Quranic arguement justifying the existence of Israel does not have any intellectual merit, I also believe that Palestinians, Muslims, and Arabs that use the arguement that Palestine and Jeruselum in particular belongs to muslims because the Quran said so is also without any merit. I am against zionism because of the implications it had on the people living in palestine before the creation of Israel. That’s all. I don’t believe that zionism is evil or even racist in its essence. However I believe that it’s idealism and the fact that it is based on the idea of “a land without a people for a people without a land”, and the clash this ideal had with the reality on the ground (i.e. the fact that there was a people who existed)lead to the creation of a state which is racist against the original inhabitants of the land. It is racist because it denied the connection that the palestinians had with the land the lived in by erasing their existance from the national physce (excuse my spelling). They became a nuisance which just had to be eliminated. There very existence is a threat to Israel and what Israel means. That’s why the biggest fear in Israel today is not Palestinian terrorism, but the Palestinian demographic time bomb. The existence of Palestinians in and of themselves is problematic. In fact, Olmert said so today in Haraatz “”"If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights (also for the Palestinians in the territories), then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished.”
Esraa please don’t stereotype me and say that my viewpoint is “typical of muslims.” You preach tolerance but then you brush aside my viewpoint. You don’t know who I am and what I believe. You don’t know what books I read, who I respect, which causes are dear to me. You don’t know what I think about religion, life, human rights and most importantly you don’t understand my world view. But you think you do by offering arguements which you think would challenge my worldview which you apparently think is “typical of most muslims”
The way you think Esraa is really sad. You divide Muslims and Arabs into two groups – people who think like you and are therefore enlightened and then people who don’t think like you and are therefore backward and typical. You only take up causes that are acceptable within a western discourse such as darfur, the rights of homosexuals, migrant rights, and religious tolerance (nothing is wrong with any of these causes) but then you are typically against causes that are not acceptable within western discourse. I challenge you to read Orientalism by Edward Said, books by Noam Chomsky and Norman Finklestein and then to reply to me. I spent four years of my undergraduate education discussing these books and reading books by important israeli intellectuals and writers and authors. At the beginning it was very painful for me intellectually but I then came to understand the stregth of the connection that Jews today have to Israel and what the “legacy of the holocaust” really means. I have had arguements with zionists (and notice I don’t say Israelis because not Israelis are zionists.. at least in the sense that I have been using it) who don’t recognize the suffering that Palestinians had to go through with the creation of Israel, and I’ve had arguements with zionists that do. Some of them told me that its a dirty part of their history that they have to deal with, just as how Americans have to deal with the existence of Native Americans. These zionists believe that something can be worked out. Other people have just told me that the injustice done to the palestinians during the creation of Israel is just a necessary evil.
These people I could have discussions with because they understood where I came from. They had their own ideas that were obviously opposed to mine but at least were willing to engage in a dialogue with me that did not involve essentializing what I or other muslims believe.
PeacefulVanguard – I understand the Jewish connection to Israel. I just have a problem with what that connection meant for the people living there before 1948.
levylevthuglife – There is no need for someone to explain to you the “problem” “Arabs” have with Israelis. Since you seem to care about this so much, maybe you should make the effort to do a little research yourself. Go get a couple of books and try to learn about the Palestinian perspective more. No one says you have to change your viewpoint. I suggest “In Search of Fatima” by Ghada Karmi, and The Question of Palestine and Out of Place by Edward Said.
civilwar – There is nothing you said in your post that I disagree with or have a problem with.
toysax – I’m glad you spent several years in Israel. My fiancee spent several years in Israel too. It’s great that Israelis are sick of the occupation. So are palestinians. However, I wasn’t talking about the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. That’s a different issue (which is inter-related of course). I am talking about the creation of Israel in 1948 and the impact it had on Palestinians living there before 1948, and what it means to be Israeli.
I never said that Israel should be exclusively Arab as you seem to imply. I actually believe in one SECULAR state for both Arabs and Jews, where arabs and Jews have equal rights, and where the Palestinians living in the occupied territories are co-opted as Israeli citizens. I believe in an Israel for everyone – for the Jews who fled the holocaust and became Israeli citizens, for the palestinians who were forcibly kicked out of Israel, and for the ones occupied. Of course that Israel is the exact Israel that Ehud Olmert fears. I don’t believe that Jerusulem belongs exclusively to Jews or Palestinians (who are both chirstian and muslim), I believe in a Jerusalem that belongs to all. I don’t believe that Israel should be exclusively Jewish because I don’t believe in a state that basis citizenship on religion or ethicity. In the same light, I don’t believe in an Israel that is exclusively Arab. Edward Said and Ali Abu Ni’mah (of electronic intifada) are among the many pro-palestinian scholars who have written books subscribing to this view point
Let me get this straight.
I express an opinion.
Get attacked and stigmatized for it.
Defend myself against the baseless claims.
And due to that, I apparently assume that I have the entire world figured out.
Wow, this certainly has been an intelligent debate! If you want to run around wanting to wipe Israel off the map, please don’t let anything stop you. But I won’t stand for it. Like many others I am finding this attitude more and more destructive and revolting and I’ll keep apologizing on the behalf of those who react like this at every opportunity.
And for the record, you’re being irrelevant by asking me to read pro-Palestinian scholars. What does Noam Chomsky and Edward Said have to do with this? I am already aware of their arguments. I already stated that I am pro-Palestinian, which is not necessarily associated with not believing in the right of Israel to exist. Express your own opinions, don’t recycle the opinions of others by telling me to “go read a book.” Frankly your comment has nothing to do with the entry in question.
What about the post do you not understand for you to see the intention? This post is about the morals of protesting! It is NOT about Israel/Palestine politics! Don’t turn this discussion into that!
You state that Zionism is racist, that chanting “death to Israel” is justifiable, and then resort to personal and petty attacks “the way you think is really sad; you think you have the world all figured out,” etc. Seriously, make an effort to stay relevant to what this post is really about. This isn’t about politics.
Rasha, what precisely is the point of your argument? The last one you made here is particularly personal and not in any way challenging Esras opinion of finding the phrase “death to Israel” distasteful. You are very wrong in trying to justify the use of this phrase by children in ur first comment here. You still got many questions to answer from the reactions.
Brushing aside disrespectful viewpoints like yours is not intolerance. Silencing it is. No one here stopped you from expressing your opinion, you have practically nothing to complain about in regards to tolerance here. Stick to the topic Rasha and stop making this topic about you when it’s not.
Thanks Murad. People have the weirdest definitions of tolerance and free speech, claiming that we practice neither yet we let pretty much anything slide. I will never understand the complaints against this site and its standards.
Great video Esra’a. Very touching.
SO SAD.. LET ME REMIND OUR MUSLIM FRIENDS THAT JEWS/HEBREWS/ISRAELITES HAVE BEEN LIVING IN THAT AREA CONTINUOUSLY FOR ABOUT 4000 YRS AND HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO LIVE THERE. SECOND WHEN ISRAEL BECAME A STATE THEY INVITED ALL ARABS TO JOIN IN GOVERNING.. THEY REFUSED. 3RD “PALESTINE” WAS ONCE PART OF TRANSJORDAN.. A FABRICATED STATE DESIGNED BY BRITAIN.. BUT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A WAY OF ORGANIZING THE LOCAL BEDUOIN TRIBES INTO AN AREA THAT COULD BE GOVERNED. AND FOR THAT MATTER SO WAS SAUDI ARABIA… THE SAUD TRIBE AS WELL AS OTHERS TRIBES WANDERED THAT DESERT AREA.. SO WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS?… JORDANIANS? THEN WHY DID JORDAN KICK THEM OUT? EGYPTIANS? THEY WANT NO PART…
MY MUSLIM FRIENDS.. YOU ARE PART OF GENERATIONS OF HATE PROMULGATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT THE WORLD AIRLINE TERRORISTS,OLYMPIC TERRORISTS,SUPERMARKET TERRORISTS,SCHOOL TERRORISTS. SHOW ME A JEW THAT BLOWS UP AIRPLANES,SCHOOLS SUPERMARKETS STUDENTS? YOU MIGHT SAY ” JEWS DONT HAVE TO.. THEY ARE THE ONES IN POWER… WHY THEN.. DO WE NOT SE JEWS CLASHING VIOLENTLY IN THE STREETS OF TEL AVIV DISAGREEING ABOUT HOW TO HANDLE THE PROBLEM OF OCCUPATION.. WHY DONT JEWS BOMB ONE ANOTHER?? SEND ROVING BANDS OF THUGS INTO THE STREETS TO INTIMIDATE GOVT OPPOSITION? CANT YOU SEE THAT YOUR CULTIRE HAS BECOME ONE OF HATE,AND VIOLENCE..? ENCOURAGED BY LEADERS WHO STEAL HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF AID???
PLEASE WAKE UP! INSTEAD OF BLAMING JEWS FOR YOUR MISFORTUNE,WHY NOT DEMAND MORE RESPONSIBLE LESS VIOLENT LEADERSHIP? NO.. ITS EASIER TO BLAME OTHERS.. IT DEFLECTS THE ATTENTION FOR THE REAL PROBLEM OF PALESTINAIANS… POOR LEADERSHIP… CORRUPT LEADERSHIP.. HATE FILLED LEADERSHIP MANIPULATING THE ARAB MASSES TO HATE ISRAEL RATHER THAN SEE THE TRUTH… LOOK INWARD TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Easy with the caps. We’re not blind. And the things you’re talking about hardly represent our majority. Take a good look at the authors of this website, who share the opinions of and represent many members of our societies. Obviously you let the mainstream media’s melodrammatic coverage get to your head, hence your belief that only Muslim and Arab countries are capable of terrorism or hatred. There are Jewish extremis, there are Israeli terrorists, just like there are Arab and Muslim ones too. Extremism is not a racial or religious trait. It’s a human trait. Everyone is guilty. You can choose to do something about it; or you can choose to stereotype in ignorance. Here, many of us have chosen the former.
Esra,
A jewish extremist assasinated the prime minister of israel,yes. But jewish extremists are not the heart of Israeli policy. If Palestinians would do as Egypt has done.. just TRY and sit and talk. Now I am under no illusion thinking Egyptians love Israelis.. but 2 diverse people have put aside most of their differences to try to find common ground.. this is called diplomacy.. this is humanity… this is godliness. Israelis are willing to do the same with any Palestinaian leader that comes to talk responsibly. I realize Abbas does not have 100% of his peoples support.. but neither did Begin.. or Sadat. As Golda Mier once said ” the Arabs will desire peace,when they love their own children,more than they hate us”
Esra,
As previously stated..I lived and worked in Israel and had several Palestinain friends. I know that many are not violent,and are tired of all the hate,but want a homeland. But as commonly happens, the few extremists have hijacked the desires of the many.
Muslims and Jews pray to the same god.. have the same Biblical roots.. in Jeruselem the air is thick with the spirit of the worlds 3 great religions. Isnt it time for the beleivers of god do what G-d has asked them to do?
I like peanuts.
Talking, talking, and talking, to establish what, and when? For how long have we talked, shook hands, and then as soon as we turn around we stab each other’s backs and expect to win more land, more public support, more money, more international recognition?
It’s a vicious cycle.
And it’s still not what this post is all about!
You are all turning this into politics, and I am NOT interested in this debate that never changes.
This is about ethical protests. NOT who’s historically right or wrong in this conflict. Please stop turning this thread into that discussion.
If you want to talk about the past, stay in the past… if you want to progress then stop talking about the past and do something meaningful NOW!
Exactly. This post’s intention is to generate understanding, to express a public condemnation of something that happened, which I personally felt was wrong. I didn’t post this here to inspire a political hate fest!
Not a single aspect changes in the way people argue politically here. There are many other threads that you can talk about the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict, this one is certainly not it. I don’t want to talk about the politics of either states. It bores me, it’s tedious. If you hate what’s happening so much do something about it other than complain for once.
Now, I please ask of the future commenters on this thread to focus on what the video’s all about. The real message it is trying to convey. Enough politics, please.
Well said.
ok to stick to the subject! In any democratic society it is incumbant on the people to object to policies if they dont agree. Yes morally and ethically people who have problems should always have the right to object in public demonstrations. But . as I think you have said… shouting “death to ….” is teaching children morally objectionable behavior. Can we object and demonstrate without going over the boundaries of decency?Martin Luther King had it right. It is the moral obligation of us to be involved in the decisions and policies we live by… withing the boundaries of decency and integrity