Maybe we deserve it…
“Ours is what we bring upon ourselves” or az maast keh bar maast or از ماست که بر ماست
A famous Persian saying (poetry, actually), even though somewhat pessimistic, I can’t help but think
that it stands true for the fate of us Iranians living under the Islamic “Republic”. Living in Iran, on some
days, I would find myself in situations where I could not help but think, ‘You know what?! We deserve it!
We deserve living under such a brutal dictatorship because we’re no less than idiots in our social interactions,
morals and standards.’
Aside from that element of rage, I am even more angered to see supporting evidence for what I think
in my moments of passionate fury.
I remember just a few years ago when Micheal Jackson, the popstar, was on trial for possible pedophile and
such charges, I came accross articles by Reutors and AP of pictures of Jackson’s supporters.
Of all place… they were from Iran. Iranian, young and old, held candle light vigils for their dear
Micheal suffering in pain. . . I really dont know if this is saddening or maddening–definitly what
I would call pathetic.
More recently countless Iranians, within and without Iran, signed petitions after petition, called to the UN to
protest the fictional movie 300 made by Hollywood because it portrayed Cyrus not in the form they appreciated. Such mobilization is impressive for us Iranians because we’re quite the individualist hot–headed people.
Supporting Micheal Jackson was surely not what angered me, rather, it was the time, effort and belief
that these Iranians spent on Micheal Jackson which was far more than–at best, equal to–the care
they showed for other more important topics to protest and commemorate. I would hate to think that
the victims of September 11th got the same commemoration as Jackson…
Ramin Ahmadi–a famous Iranian activist residing in the States–also voiced the same concern on VOA
a few days ago. His comparison was so poignent it has taken me a few days to actually be able to
type up what he retold.
Ahmadi is originally from Kerman, a south eastern state in Iran. Kerman has seen many political activists,
infamous and not politicitans, and notable historical characters rise from its cradle. A prominent member of Mossadegh’s cabinet Dr Ahmad Razavi, the former president of the IR Ali Hashemi-Rafsanjani, Ahmadi
himself and most famous, Saeedi Sirjani. Sirjani was a laureate, a scholar with a firm voice and writing
style. He is unrivaled in Iran’s written culture in the current century. Of his more political pieces, was an
open letter to the Supreme leader of the IR, in which he wrote his own death sentance–for lack of a better
description. Sirjani was soon taken into prison, and mysteriously died a few years later. Some Iranians mourned
the loss of such a brave, strong and honourable personality in Iranian hisotry. I don’t remember candle light
vigils…
More recently, Ahmadi retold the story of a Kermani poet who fell prey to the hands of the IR. As Ahmadi
described him, he was a humble school teacher from a lower middle class family who wrote poetry as a
hobby. Not as voiced as Sirjani was, however he did write political poetry once in a while. Very recently,
one night, agents raided his small house to rid society of such corruption. The murderers are linked by
ex-pat organizations as related to the famous Chain Murderer bandit of Saeed Imami who killed at least 20 laureates in the late 90′s in Iran. They went in to murder this poet with a knife. In the midst of the midnight
raid his eight year old son, sleeping in the room nextdoor woke up to the scene of his father being stabbed
to death. It only took a second for the slaughterers to murder the eight year old, stab him to death with a
knife just like his father. The bandit left the house untouched to prove that this was a political murder and
not theft.
His wife, some time later, went to the local Kermani police to start an investigation. The police attempted and a few days later sent a notice to the wife that, “We have recieved warning from higher authorities that this case
may not be investigated.”
Where were the candle light vigils for the eight year old boy and his father who were stabbed to death?
In chat rooms? At the mall to buy the latest mobile phones? Watching Haifa’s latest show broadcasted
from Dubai’s MBC2?
Ours is what we bring upon ourselves…
Join the Conversation
good post; just a point:
it is said that democracy may not be injected to the body of a society from upside, rather it should rise from down. a kind of social structure to bring organized group activites to the public sphere is the primary thing needed to establish a democracy, and that is what we need first and foremost. as long as people fail to show their feelings, oppositions, etc through a group activity, it would be much easier for the ruling Brothers to crack down single voices.
Meenoo
As an Iranian, what do you advise? How would you react in collaboration with people in order to show you denounce what you denounce? As a woman in Iran does your voice count? If you suppose try to legally set a demonstration to show your resentment of assassinations, war, war crimes, and many other issues,will you be allowed to do you? How would people know about the assassinations you talked about some 10 years back? Michael Jakson was a legend in Audio Visual Arts which could find its audience among people who even didn’t understand what were the words to his songs.
Some time back, perhaps when you and me, we were both so young, talking about Michael Jakon was like opposing the regime, because they wanted us to chant slogans and we listened to Jakson instead, not that Jakon was the best in all his ways of dancing and touching himself while he performed ( a legacy he left for many others to join the club), but the fact that later on ( thanks to Mr. Shmuley Boteach from USA) Michael voiced issues that many people around the world could relate to.
Do you remember the years that A VCR was forbidden, and if they found one in a car trunk that would be confiscated? and any kind of VHS movies? untill it couldn’t be controlled any more, then cd players were forbidden, then music was forbidden, then any foreign movie , unless summitted to censureship…. to make the long story short, it was like an adventure for younger people to watch all the music vedeos that right now it is on every channel on the sattelite, and suppose watching Michael Jakson sing for the endagered species of a wale would mean an opposition, a forbidden apple.
The honorable deceased Saeedi Sirjani , with all the bright portfolio of his writings and his actions, did not have the same charm. Where could younger people find his name? from the distorted history books or from the well inspected book stores of the capital?
Where was he voiced? Who did help him, to promote this supressed idea? did he have a finantial supporter? We usually focus on some thing zoomed out for us , from an outside source. I don’t recall a period in the history where we have ruled as a people, well, every now and then we have made an effort to be influential.
Some time back I got a copy of one of Sjrjanee’s books and i found a great writer in him, with a sense of humour, with a criticizing approach, it was pleasing to read his writing, it was elevating, it was fun, and then I felt so bad about losing him, I didn’t know I had him to begin with !
Then an old person in the family passes a way and I move to one of the central cities to attend the funeral, there are many other elderly people in my family who might pass a way any moment, so I visit the ones left, I visit a village I never saw before, to meet one of those lederly people and I understand from the pictures on the walls that he had been a great friend of Saeedi Sirjani, that they were coleagues, as both being lawyers and socialist.
I ask the old man, who cannot hear a word with out a hearing aid, ” Why do you think he was killed , why? ”
It takes some time till he manages to answer, ” He spend many years of his life in prison at the time of Shah as well, then he spend much time in jail after the revolution, as both the systems didn’t like socialist, he was active and he was a non-conformist, he was not sitting in a corner quietly ans waiting for things to happen, but he did not deserve to be killed like that…”
I talked to this old man, I told him things will change, I made him listen to some music through my mp3 player, and he was amuzed that technology has gone so far as to make him hear music after so long with this quality.
How would I even know about this old man perishing in a an old house in a village if I didn’t go for the funeral?
We are cut from the roots. We have to find out what are the reasons behind this being stoned, and find applicable Non-violent ways to provide for the change needed.
I dont quite understand your point. What I am saying is that the people are not ready and willing to participate in or believe in particular activities/standards. . . namely that of freedom of speech.
indeed many people are at least eager to do something (not to overthrow the regime, but just to make things better), but they are afraid that a single movement might face a harsh crackdown. I was saying that this ‘eagerness’ should be formed into some group activities in order to (1) make an effect, (2) save the people from any harsh response (by the regime or some crazies).
Meenoo from Eeraan, a name that nobody knows what the hell is this name?! are you talking about pathetic?! Oh yeah, I call your country name that you wrote for yourself, pathetic!
Pathetic, you’re within that you think so all Michael Jackson supporter where Iranians, open your eyes! stupid! many people in US supporting Michael Jackson! who do you think you;re to even let yourself to write non-sense? If you have never ever seen because you put you’re head in somewhere but not the place it hsould be, go read how many petitions Iranian-expat run and support against IRI? open your eyes!
Pathetic is your approach to write “has seen many political activists, infamous and not politicitans,” so what the hell is this talking about whole people in kerman to come to conclusion about a poet? Go ahead and write about the poet.
How many people do you think in Iran and overseas have had access to the news about recent incident in Iran?! you have no clue! where are you from? are you Iranian or f###ing someone else?
Go spell censorship! probably you should write it 100000000000000000 times!
Try Pathetic for yourself before call people Pathetic! Don’t generalize, Pathetic!
Meeno. Thank you for your eloquent post and for hearing my voice.
Gandhi once said, no society can possibly be built on a denial of individual freedom. Recent history show that he was right. Iranians will sooner or later rediscover the power of their solidarity and repair their broken moral compass. Only then we will have justice for the voiceless victims of state violence. Only then we will have peace.
Truely yours
Ramin
Aghaayeh Ahmadi-yeh geraami, vagh’an az didanetoon rooyeh forum khoshaalam va eftekhaareh bozorgi bood keh gozari beh neveshtehaam kardin!! aan barnaameyeh VOA shomaa vagh’an mano tahteh ta’seer gozaasht.
I do enjoy seeing people judge my writing from how I spell. Thank you for the entertainment!!! I think I should get bonus points though because English is my second language and I’m managing pretty well
As I mentioned in the begining of my post, I do realize that I am attempting to state a generalization and many might slip through the crack–indeed they do, and luckily so.
I do however believe that blind nationalisim which some of you have protrayed will only lead us to a horrible downfall, lower than where we fell to right now in history.
It is important to see the truth of what many Iranians’ moral standpoint is and how they act. Many are phenomenal and many are low.
It is important to not point fingers at those who present this status quo–i.e. me or Ramin Ahmadi, rather, we should point fingers at people who are truly (maybe partially) at fault.
In fact, I do not even wholly blame Iranians. The systematic demoralization and corruption of values prevelant in Iranian society today is greatly a product of the Islamic Republic’s tactics to gain hold of the people. Much like colonists’ use of opium for numbing the Chinese, the IR has created such a difficult and unmanagable set of circumstances which inevitably lead to such behaviour on people’s behalf.
When basic needs such as education and social freedom are taken away from the youth, they spend all that energy on what they have minimal access to-namely satellite TV, fashion and such.
When rising to the top of the social echelon has become virtually impossibly, people resort to very low acts of Hobbesian realities to get their daily bread on the table.
The Islamic Republic’s deep roots of infiltration in the youth in Iran–myself even possibly included–is going to be hard to get rid of.
Lastly, I do not offer a solution and I don’t believe anybody can. But there is something to be said about the effort that some Iranian youth do NOT put into enlightening themself. It is hard to attain copies of Sirjani’s writings. It is also hard to get the latest porn DVD’s, alcohol, Jackson’s new CD . . . for some reason many opt to get the latter and not the former. During the previous regime, a certain amount of restriction and censorship did exist but it was common for youth to read The Red Book, Engels, “night-ly reports” or shabnaameh’s and enlighten themselves.
(Part of this credit is due to the Shah’s Iran. He was a dictator and restrictive but at least he did not corrupt Iranian youth to such an extent of numbness and idiocy. . . but that too is a generalization and matter to discuss in another post!)
What an excellent elaboration!
good english na?!
no it’s pathetic, btw what the hell is this name, do you even speak en-glee-z
khoda Hafez baba ur too pathetic i wont bother
Menoo Wrote:
Well, since you brought it up:
Menoo Wrote:
should be: beginning, nationalism, portrayed, prevalent, unmanageable, behavior and themselves.
If you take a lot of flack from the spelling nazis, perhaps you should try using a browser with a built in spell checker, like firefox. It keeps me from embarrassing myself on a regular basis.
Menoo Wrote:
Well, you’ve got the vocabulary. You need to add a space on either side of the ‘-’ sign though, when using it in the manner you do, and in some places you should use commas instead.
Your post is easily readable at any rate, with the possible exception of this sentence:
Menoo Wrote:
Oh please! Are we really going to turn this excellent post into a grammar check?
This is a blog. It’s not an academic paper! There are no linguistic rules as long as we get the idea. Grammar Nazis are extremely frowned upon as they are nothing but distracting.
Leave her spelling alone and stick to the actual topic at hand! She’ll spell things the way she wants to and in fact, I hope she misspells every single word from now on just to piss you off.
Get relevant.
Thank you Menoo jan.
By the way; you forgot to mention Jahangir khan Razavi among the Kermai intellectuals.
A sharp, warm and lovely man full of political insights. I have great memories of him from my childhood and learned a good deal from him.
Please keep up the good writing, ignore the ignorants and email me when you have a moment.
Yours
Ramin
Meenoo
Perhaps people are scared? I asked my husband the saem question, I asked him why the same people who revolted in masses are now doped and dozed off?
He said no one confronted people in the revolution, in fact shahleft the country so that the army wouldn’t kill people to stop the revolt, so it was like handing the power to the next people to come and take charge, and the people who came are still very much scared of the role an opposition might play. Any little gathering or any little demonstration, suppose in the name of human rights or freedom means ” planning to over throw them”, they cannot stand a normal demonstration which does not feature their rhetorical slogans.
Elinor:
A very exact point it is. indeed, when the army took a neutral position in those pre-revolution clashes, it would be very clear who was going to win.
Ive heard it from several military officers that “we were who made the revolution… if we had shown a harsh crackdown, the revolution would have never happened.”
So the part of the problem is that you are scared, now. You are convinced that police or Guards or army will come and start to shoot at you. That they will shoot at you even if you go out in large numbers.
But what happen if, perhaps, they will not do it? After all before revolution police and army did shoot at people.They put people in Evin prison. During the revolution most people were convinced that Shah’s army will fire on them, or they were unsure. But army did not fire.
This is a fascinating post, issues with spelling and grammar aside…
There are some fundamental questions regarding fomenting a “new revolution” that will see overthrowing the existing dictatorship in your country. Since the actual rulers of Iran currently are religious figures, would these revolutionaries overthrow them? Is there that much of a secular-minded movement existing in Iran, and if not, could it even come into being? Would the armed forces support such an uprising? It would be natural for the current regime to accuse any serious movement of this type of being agents of the US and Israel. How would such a movement refute these accusations, and could it survive them? And please don’t dismiss me by going on about how I don’t understand Iran. I don’t. I have a few Iranian friends who are really great guys, but they won’t talk about their country other than to be sad about it. So, I’m asking these questions.
We are charged with the often difficult task of bringing meaning into our lives. Life is not inherently meaningful unless we choose to make it so. We can easily be manipulated by fear. We can be lulled into numbness by material things, like a drug addict who gets his fix.
How will change come about? It will come when the promise of tomorrow becomes more important than the despair of today. When hope begins to displace hate. When common sense begins to trump nonsense.
And what will it take for all this to happen? It will take a vision of hope, and some heavy duty courage to make it real.
Is any of this possible? Maybe and maybe not, but everything we know and love hangs in the balance.
another anonymous:
I’m scared of a revolution, for I think it is not a solution but just temporarily removing the question! i.e. necessary social infrastructures of a democracy are not available in this country, and then, any full-scale democracy might lead to a disater, for example to the election of a person like Ahamadinejad or even worse. in addition, right now, there are some rational creatures in the regime who stop Ahmadinejad sometimes and do not let him do every stupid thing he desires. then, I’m scared if such a person is going to be elected with a full scale power without the people being mature enough to control the regime… and unfortunately, Iranians are not mature enough to acquire democracy.
you might want to know what I propose as a solution; do I suggest to sit and watch? absolutely no. there is a need for a social movement guided by intellectuals, and that is a thing underway in Iran, I believe (or at least hope!)
eric:
these are some answers to ur questions, obviously based on my experience of this society, and not necessarily true answers or applicable to the soicety as a whole.
If you mean denouncing the religion itself, the answer is this: Absolutely No. today there are some new trends of religious life (close to mysticism and etc.) on rise between some youth, which shows that people are still bonded over religion, though they might hate the political (ab)use of it.
If you mean removing religious figures from power, that is an option, and another option is finding some moderate religious figures… suppose that a sudden regime change happens in Iran; do not get surprised if you read some day in news headlines that ‘Khatami: new president of Iran’ (khatami: reformist president before Ahmadinejad)!!
Iranians, even some devout ones, are increasingly getting used to a new model of religious life which saves the religion in private and follows social norms in the public. if you call it a ‘secular-minded’ movement, yeah! congratulations! that is happening!
But this movement is almost based on personal experiences, not on some social or philosophical grounds. the ‘personal experiences’ of the people are converging to the point of secularism: they feel that it is better to let everybody live his/her preferred life.
Not at all. Two major parts of aremed forces are: Artesh (classic army) and Sepah (Revolutionary Guards). latter is a fanatic supporter of Regime, in all levels of its employees (anyone to enter Guards should pass several examinations, and a full investigation would be done to ensure that he is also a fanatic supporter of the regime). Sepah, as well as country’s ministry of intelligence, enjoys a supervisory role over Artesh.
People usually dont care much about these matters, I think. Its very usual to hear a sentence like ‘God may forgive Shah, he was a better ruler’ from everyone who faces/hears a trouble somewhere in this country (troubles ranging from getting a permission from municipality to the holes of the roads, to the price of bread, to the earthquake news, to weather forecast!), and that means that people would embrace every person (even Shah) who might help them make a better life.
mohammad
You said that Iranians are not mature enough to acquire democracy.
I agree that one have to be very careful to do any changes and I, more or less, agree with what you wrote to eric. But….I think that Iranians have history of democratic movements, these movements certainly were not perfect, nevertheless they were democratic. I understand that under the Shah you also had communist movements and all kinds of other movements only loosely termed democratic, but I think that you are putting down your people.
I might be wrong, I hope I am not.
another anonymous:
you are almost right. just want to add a point to your last comment: those movements failed mostly due to the fact that they were not elevated from the Iranian society, but were just some imported Ideas. Im sure that you will agree that a democracy will happen in a society whose people can appreciate it in its very essence.
another anonymous:
by the way, I dont mean that Regime’s pressure mean nothing in this case. for sure I do understand that such pressures tend to make it less likely for these movements to grow in the society, and makes it harder (if not impossible) for the people to grow gradually.
Mohammad
Are you saying that because the ideas are “imported” and not “elevated from Iranian society” they have to fail?
So funny.
Do you think that “parliamentary rule” is a Japanese idea?
No way, that idea got “imported.” Japan has parliamentary rule now.
Do you think that “democracy” was a German or a French idea?
It was neither, it got “imported” to the rest of Europe from Greece, via Romans. The rest of Europe for a long time did not appreciate the idea of “democracy”
You think that Irish loved idea of human rights? That this was their own idea? Think again.
And what about idea of totalitarian rule in Russia, that was Russian idea?
It was a Mongols idea and a way of ruling, Russians just “imported” it from them.
What about “sharia”? This is an Iranian “idea” and Iranians did not imported it but “elevated it from within” Iranian society?
How long it took for Iranian to appreciate it in its very essence?
So please do not tell me that because ideas are “imported” and not “elevated from society” they usually fail. Some ideas fail, many get incorporated into society and often improved upon, by the said society. Of course they might fail more easily when the government and clerics of the said country are saying over and over again that the idea is foreign, or that it does not agree with the country’s religion But tell me how many of so called “Iranian” ideas are really Iranian?
As for the pressure, it depends on what kind of pressure we are talking about. Any kind of pressure would not make it easy to for the movement to convince government that it has nothing to do with “foreigners”, but on the other hand without pressure the story is the same, the movement would be called “foreign” because the government does not want to believe it can be Iranian.
another anonymous:
you are true. But I didnt mean what you think I meant. let me explain:
Iranians had had a kind of traditional tool for caluculating, called Chortkeh, since a very long time ago. few decades ago, some people brought (i.e. imported) a new device from western countries, called electronic calculator. Businessmen had the chance to give it a try, find out that it is more powerful and reliable than Chortkeh, very easy to use, etc. People learned many positive things about the new device, and finally this imported thing turned into a part of their daily life. after a while, some changes were made in the style and even keys of those calculaters to make it more appealing to the Iranians… and this way, an imported device might become an ‘indigenous’ part of the society.
Ideas follow almost the same pattern. lets consider the case of Democracy. One day, intellectuals come and say: ‘Hurray… we found the ultimate cure for corrupt governments, come and see’. People go and find out that this thing is in conflict with many features of their lifestyle and beliefs. Should they give up on their lifestyle & beliefs as soon as a new idea enters the market? No. People come and test, though in a limited sense.
very often it happens that people fail to test the new idea with a long-term perspective: we vote in favor of advocates of democracy, but unfortunately economy fails. then a good dictator comes and reforms the economy, bringing more bread and butter to our dinner-tables. How do you expect us to behave? the history may repeat several times until peole get to understand that a democracy is better than monarchy, even if the monarchy works better in short-term in financial ground.
The imported idea was this: “democracy is better than monarchy, even if the monarchy works better in short-term in financial ground.” but people have to find out this thing themselves: sometime through trial and error, and sometimes going directly to the last station (lucky!)
This way, an imported idea turns into an indigenous one. Probably you agree that sometimes there is a need for some changes in the shape or some elements of the idea (of course to an extent not damaging the whole thing) to make it a proper choice for a certain society, and this change: (1) takes time to happen, (2) should be done by the soicety itself.
Now, let me say that the core idea of those movements usually came to this country as single packages which were usually: (1) not fitting Iranian society, (2) intolerable of people’s trial and error, (3) intolerable of any change to make an Iranian Style of them, (4) trying to make a rapid change, (and in the case of democracy) (5) not fully understood by those who imported the thing.
This is what I call ‘not elevating from Iranian’. the idea should be offered to the society, and society itself should ripen it, I think.
Mohammad
I think you are right and you are wrong.
Yes, people will, at first, prefer “good” dictator to something loosely called “democracy”.
Let’s look at that.
Your dictator will give bread on the table and good things to play with and he will educate people. But then your “good” dictator will refuse to allow people to make more decisions – they are educated, you know, so they will want more saying in the government. Your “good” dictator will close newspapers and censor books – but at the same time he give people ability to read and discuss. Your “good” dictator will get angry with people because they will want more bread, more things to play with, more saying in the decisions how to rule country, more reading of newspapers and books.
You are asking me how I expect you to behave?
How did you behaved and why did you made your revolution? Certainly not because majority of you wanted theocratic government.
Now, why do you say that this government put bread and butter on the tables of Iranian. Most of Iranians live now in worse economic conditions than under the Shah. True, what people in the west are saying about how you live and how you really live are two different things, I think. Many of you have a second job, many of you buy smuggled things, if you have money you can buy everything in Iran. But………..imagine how better average Iranian life could be if Iranians paid less for these things? Smuggled things cost more, one job is better then two, chinese things are overall not as good as european and many US made things are smuggled or reverse engineered (that cost money).
Now lests look at this “imported” idea of yours.
When you are saying that an idea do not fit an Iranian society you have to
- change yourself to fit to that idea
- change the idea to fit your society
You want the second solution, but usually you do both…………. change the idea a little and change the society a little. And all societies change over time. How close your views are to the views of Iranians living in 18 century?
It is intolerable of people trial and error (Sorry, did not understood what you mean, I think that you wanted to say that the idea can not tolerate trial and error).
But you did tried that idea many times. Mosadeq may not got the whole idea right, and Khatami was far from democrat western media call him, but they did try. Trial and error, you said.
What is “Iranian Style”? Could you explain in detail what do you mean by that, because I think what you are saying is meaningless. Is there “Iranian style” sharia? Is there “Iranian Style” religion? Is there “Iranian Style” army? Iranian style economy?, Well yeah, perhaps there is Iranian Style economy but it does not do so well, does it?”
Why do you think everybody wants to make a rapid “democratic” change? I thought one of the aims of some people demonstrating during your revolution was introduction of democratic rule. Their revolution was hijacked by islamists, but many people wanted democratic rule and their idea of democracy was pretty close to the real stuff. So why are you saying that some people want “rapid democratic changes”? You mean you want “slow democratic changes”, say, one change every two millenia?
As for the ideas not fully understood by those who imported them……………..yes, they may not have fully understood, but I think majority understand it just enough for it to work in a way it should work. I think they understand it better than people in other countries in the ME.
Now, so we will be completely clear. I am against military “change of regime”, the only regime change I would support would be the Iranian change done from within. But at the same time I am not against the sanctions.
After all, Iran want nuclear weapons because it would make you a country which would be a power-house in the ME. I would like Iran to be an important country in the ME and outside it. But your government also want to bomb some people to the smithereens. I would be against the sanctions if you did not threaten other countries and if you did not help terrorist organisations. But you do threaten and you do help, so I am all for sanction.
another anonymous:
as I see, we are closer than that I could imagine. just note that:
(1) bread and butter was just an abstract example, not an objective one referring to IRI or Shah: it was just to show that immature society might prefer a dictator for a while… and that is a stage in the way of social evolution, as you pointed out very well.
(2) “their revolution was hijacked by islamists” many emphasize on this point. agreed.
“2 revolution or 1″ was a good article I read about this argument, which stated that the revolution itself was a populist one in essence, but Islamists hijacked it in its last stages.
(3) about importing an idea, rate of change, tolerating people’s trial and error, changing the idea or the society to fit each other, etc:
Democracy, as I understand it (maybe an incomplete understanding), is a set of values plus a set of well stablished procedures to support and protect those values. but these 2 sets are not a complete system/order, and every democratic society makes its own system based on these values and using those procedures.
you do agree, I think, that the swiss democracy is somehow different from that of french, leave UK aside which still believes that some people are born common and some are born noble
. many details of a democratic order should be determined with regards to that society’s history, roots, ego, etc.
but what happened in those ‘import’ acts was this: Mr X visits France (fro example), writes every single thing he observes there, comes here and wants to make a COPY of that model here, i.e. a democratic order (rather than democracy) comes in a single package, while this order is neither fitting the Iranians’ needs nor is the ultimate must to establish democracy.
this is why such movements were doomed to fail. but right now, the democratic movement in Iran is growing up much speedier than what even most optimistic people could imagine.
*****
and about the sanctions: I think they are less likely to help your cause, and indeed it is a counter productive strategy. it wont stop crazies, I believe.
We do what it takes to do it if even it’s setting fire on Quran and burning Mosques and put all clergies on behind of bars. they have no respect in Iran, they are shameless inhuman Islamic dictators with huge ego to carry their Islamic stupidity.
I have decided to set Quran on fire as long as Islamic dictatorship of Iran:
1. doesn’t commit to Universal Declaration of Human Rights rules;
2. doesn’t stop executions;
3. doesn’t free students and opposition from prison;
3. doesn’t bring justice in Judiciary system and society.
I believe religious disobedience is the key to save Iranian people from ruling mullahs. They preach that Islam is religion of peace and freedom which is a hypocrisy in reality.
So as long as this hypocrisy goes in Iran, this fire is on Quran and I will continue to do so for unlimited time. Also I encourage you to set fire on Quran in every corner and leave the rest of it in the city because this movement should spread itself among everyday people.
I chose this date because it’s Islamic sacred month in the Islamic calendar which in this month the Hajj Pilgrimage takes place. So setting Quran on fire, I am sending this message to mullahs (clergies) who live in hypocrisy that if Islam has not brought peace and prosperity in Iran for Iranians as logic suggests, we should get rid of it like what I am doing.
Also I am asking from world citizens including Iranians to support this campaign.
Please promote ‘Fire on Quran’ and fight against Islamic dictatorship regime of Iran
by the way, above comment is coming from my friend in Iran which he is totally against any Islamic government and I am responsible to send his message to you.
Mohammad
I have read couple of books on Revolution. Every author has different take on. One author, who I lived through it, wrote that what happened after revolution was somewhat planned in advance. I think he might be right, people who supported Islamic revolution could use mosques, and clandestinely prepare many things. Other people (communists, democrats ) did not have that opportunity. That is also the problem with theocratic system, it is very difficult to change some things. I am not religious person, but some of my friends are religious and I am pretty sure that they will have to really search their conscience before doing something which their religious people (clerics, mullahs etc) say is wrong. And in Iran some mullahs say democracy is not compatible with Islam. Myself, I think it is bullshit, but some ( I hope, not many) people believe them.
Imports. True, some people concentrated on one thing forgetting that idea of democracy consists of many things linked together. It is true that democracy in Switzerland is somewhat different from democracy in Ukraine or in the USA but many things are the same. So although I think that there are some things which can be changed, many can not be changed, because to change them will make this word/idea meaningless.
Hmm………..I guess I wrote nearly the same thing what you wrote in your post, I think.
***********
I still believe that sanctions would not be counterproductive. They may not stop crazies but they may make their life much more difficult.
pls read: “One author, who lived through it” i/o “who I lived”
wrote too quickly, sorry, my bad.
another anonymous:
Are you an Iranian in exile or something like that? you are apparently very close to this country.
Mohammad Memarian
I am not an Iranian in exile or anything like that.
As for closeness – does liking for and appreciation of Iranian jokes counts?
another anonymous:
yeah, that counts, and any other thing which might help people get closer counts as well.
Mohammad Memarian,
Let us leave what happened in the past, perhaps that was inevitalbe. I know that we are scared of another revolution, that is because a revolution like that of 1979 did not bring the justice and freedom people demanded, it did not bring people into power, it just change the setting of the ruling class. If another revolution take place there is no garanty that people who are concerned about the future of Iranians take power again. A revolution may crack down the sense of integrity and make Iran prone to other wars and other conflicts that we faced from the time of revolution upto now. At the same time reform might not be that effictive as well, as we witnessed some years back, it did not serve the cause.
Mohammad there should be a way, the best possible way to bring aobut the changes necessary for our people and our country, without hurting the already hurt people more. what do you think…
Nissim
We all need a change, in a better word, you in Israel would not find me in Iran your opponent, or any Arab country around in the Gulf would not feel that I, as an Iranian want less of happiness and intergrity for them in the region. Perhaps gradually we have no other way but to realise our future is interrelated, and if one country peospers it will affect all of us in a positive way, and the other way round is true.
Nissim what do you think would bring the change needed in the region, if we wish to have a peaceful and humane way of applying for the requirements. If we do not wish to contributed to the troubles of our already troubled region, what do do think could be done, by all of us to make that change possible?