Arab and Muslim homosexuals: Who dares defend them?
A few months ago, a young homosexual couple from Morocco contacted us noting that Mideast Youth does a good job of defending all kinds of rights, whether those of religious minorities, migrant workers, or sex slaves, and they asked a vital question:
“What about us?”
So I immediately wanted to consult our team on having a gay rights campaign directed at Arab and Muslim youth. Liz wrote an e-mail and sent it to our active authors, and we had mixed reactions, most of which included “don’t do it.” Not that they don’t support such efforts, but they felt that we simply weren’t ready.
I was kind of hoping for an enthusiastic “YEAH, LET’S DO IT!”
We’ve always been like that for anything that deserves support.
I believe everything deserves a shot no matter how ugly the situation can turn out. But this time it was different. Since the majority of our team were not willing to do this I had no choice but to respect that and distance ourself from this, at least for now.
I wrote the couple back, I told both of them that as much as we’d love to do such a campaign, we can’t handle the burden right now. They were disappointed that we were willing to tackle absolutely everything except homosexuality. They figured we were cowards.
It’s really sad that most of the homosexual campaigns are minimal and are by homosexuals themselves. Everyone else doesn’t seem to care about what many homosexuals are being put through… by the government, by their parents, by their friends, by society as a whole. They get labeled and stigmatized, treated as if they are mentally ill. Some get disowned by their own families. Some are hanged. Some suffer in fear of honor crimes.
Maybe it’s time for us to actually do something effective.
I mean, why are we so scared?
Can someone tell me?
When Liz sent out the e-mail, I abstained from voting , it is a very sensitive topic to me that I’d rather not associate myself with.
I just think it’s not right to sit back and watch these people get severely abused and discriminated against for petty reasons like “I disagree with their lifestyle.”
So?
Muslims disagree with the Baha’i Faith - that doesn’t justify them having no rights in countries under Islamic law. I think it’s very disgusting what we have allowed Baha’is to undergo in our name for decades, with little to no efforts being dedicated to their support. I would hate to say the same with regards to homosexuality, too. Whether you find them wrong or not, they’re people, harmless to say the least. Why should we sit back and watch them go through shit?
Fighting for their rights doesn’t mean promoting their lifestyles. It means you believe in equality and human rights in every sense of the word - not just people/notions you agree with.
This is what’s so hypocritical about many activists in our societies.
[By the way this isn’t directed just at you; but mostly to the others who expressed their dislike for homosexuals, to the extent that I would refer to them as “homophobes.” I was extremely disappointed at how some people reacted at this, completely intolerant.]
shouldn’t we also campaign for the incestious couples?
of course not when one of them is underage, but i mean when they are both adults, i.e a brother and sister who are i love, or even a father and his “adult” daughter? two adults with free choice who happen to have different life style.
don’t scream “SICK!” yet please, i accept it is so frigging sick but, if you accept homosexuality today you will accept incest tomorrow, or maybe sooner than that.
if (homosexuality)
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why not (incest)
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}
}
I see what you are trying to do, but it’s not going to work in this case. You obviously regard homosexuality as something so utterly abnormal that is worth equating with incestuous behavior, and maybe you are right. No one said our campaign’s slogan is: “Be gay today, HOORAY!”
If you think it’s abnormal, that is your personal choice. I also don’t agree with the lifestyle of homosexuals, but I know better than to dismiss the entire minority as disgusting and justify all kinds of abuse that they have to suffer from.
We are once again not promoting homosexuality by questioning whether or not it’s time to pursue a campaign for their rights.
But if homosexuals undergo torture - then, you’d have to strengthen your argument on why we shouldn’t do it, other than calling it severely abnormal. What harm do they pose to us personally for us to justify their death and/or social isolation and discrimination? You think by allowing them to have rights the entire region is going to be ridden with them? Do you say the same about religious minorities? “Oh no, if we give Jews rights, they’re gonna take over!”
“It’s wrong and gross” simply doesn’t cut it. Find an argument. You can condemn homosexuality in every way, especially from a religious perspective as a Muslim, while still advocating for their human rights. And if you don’t, then yeah, I do consider you to be a hypocrite if anyone here claims to be a human rights activist and then picks and chooses who is human enough to fight for and who is not.
Spanky, your logic statement doesn’t make sense, just like your argument.
Torture is wrong no matter who it is applied to. However, I also disagree with you when you try to state that incest is wrong (or more wrong) but homosexuality is not.
I think if non-Muslims wish to engage in homosexual acts then that’s their deal, but it’s a very slippery slope to try to keep the non-Muslim/Western standard for Muslims. I think you are falling far too deep and exclusively into the Western paradigm.
Clearly, in Islam homosexuality is considered the same kind of sexual transgression as incest and adultery (something to be sternly disapproved of in the Islamic context) and there is nothing wrong to say so explicitly to each other or our western counterparts. Point is is that there are certain sexual concepts in Muslim culture such as marriage between cousins or polygamy which are equally as anathema to modern western culture and equally criminal in Western law. Yet, I don’t see anyone trying to change those Western statutes and laws, so why the double standard with Islamic norms and mores.
First, of course, one must recognize that homosexuality exists, for a great many people that level of understanding has not been achieved. That it exists then brings into play how one politically, morally and personally deals with its existence.
We reserve considerable prejudice for homosexuality, are our prejudices as baseless as were others? Can we apply lessons learned from exacting those prejudices?
Some in the US would not drink from the same fountains as people whose skin was darker, nor would we sit, eat, watch movies, go to school together. Before that we would not permit women access to equality. We overcame, to a degree, those prejudices. Why not this one?
Homosexuality is NOT a Western trend! Homosexuality is a TRAIT that is shared by humans of ALL origins and within ALL regions of the world! Absolutely anyone, anywhere can be homosexual, it’s not something isolated to the Western world. Nor is fighting for their rights.
It’s extremely ignorant to dismiss homosexuals or gay rights activism as products of Westernization. Many Arab homosexuals can’t even speak English, let alone be exposed to the Western world in general, so to consider them “Western” is just wrong and couldn’t be further off the mark. This is a physical orientation; many would argue that it’s not even a personal choice.
Then why shouldn’t I also fight back, even as a non-homosexual Muslim, when I see gay friends being abused, threatened with death, disowned by their families? Because they chose to love someone else of their own sex? Suddenly that is the biggest abnormality in our societies? The biggest crime? Ask yourself: Do they really deserve it?
Our faith forbids us from engaging in such activities. It does not, however, forbid us from fighting for their rights. No one can use Islam to argue that we shouldn’t fight for gay rights - you can only use it to state that “homosexuality is bad and therefore has severe consequences.” Just like no one can use Islam to justify abuse against any other minority in the world, even if they are dismissed as wrong in our Holy Book. Furthermore no one can use Islam to justify the politicized oppression that we see in our countries. So my post has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with human rights in its purest form.
I respect and love my faith, I therefore do not in any way promote this lifestyle. Our campaign would not state or even imply that you SHOULD be gay, but it does promote a level of tolerance towards homosexual people. You’d need a real argument to convince me why that is wrong, instead of equating it to other abnormalities.
I noted now that many gays in the region go through things like honor crimes, hanging, severe social discrimination and much more.
So tell me once again why we shouldn’t campaign for gay rights, and why doing so, would be falling under a “Western” paradigm, an argument I find preposterous!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
OMGZ WESTERNIZED ANIMALS… damn these English speaking, English reading lions… damn it… only if the only learnt Arabic… they’ll be bared from all these Western influences.
Now to all those who think homosexuality is a Western trend, get a gun, put a bullet in, point to your head and pull the trigger. You will be happy that you made the world a better place.
i didn’t quite understand why the incest is big “no no :s”, while homosexuality is big “yes yes :D” until i read about the US laws regarding incest. until they change the “outrageous” incest laws in the US i expect you guys to defend furiously against relevance between homosexuality and incest.
oh my bad
so you believe that Sodomy should NOT be legal?
don’t twist the guy words, he didn’t say that homosexuality itself is a western trend, he was talking about the “woooh sodomite is legal” and “yeeeeh gays are normal” and “yaaaaahaaa embrace the rainbow”
homosexual activism is what he was talking about, the malicious campaign to normalize the act of sodomy and forcing the Muslim population to accept it as a “”"”"”"lifestyle”"”"”"”"”
we had homosexuality for long long long time, it was a global “trend”, no one deny that.
and to be more precise and honest, i believe that homosexuality activism was an eastern trend long before it became a western trend, in some city in the east homosexual activism made big gains thousands of years ago…..a city called Sodom
yeah, let me take a look at your logic and sense
no kidding?
animals?…because animals do this then errrr…..fabulous logic.
anywayi want to make an important point here….i am a Muslim…
but i had (and still having) my share of premarital sex
alcohol? occasionally
beer? sure
Hashish? puff pass puff puff pass
but i would never campaign for premarital sex, alcohol consuming or beer
oh wait…maybe not premartial sex…i saw dogs have sex orgies the street before
ok for dogs, got to be ok for humans…..right, Jina?
No one is denying homosexuality exists and has existed throughout all societies most likely throughout all times. I mean the the Ancient Greeks considered homosexual love to be the highest form of human love, of course they also treated women in very much a Taliban-style.
However, the “Western paradigm” of homosexuality which I am arguing against sees homosexuality as not just a physical act (which it is in my opinion and I believe to be the standard historical perception in the Muslim world and elsewhere), but more significantly as also a political identity, a cultural identity, etc. This is what I argue to be a modern phenomena indigenous to Western society as it was developed there and one which manifests itself in such things as Gay Pride Parades, Gay political organizations, Gay bars etc., and what some want to export into Muslim societies under the discourse of Human Rights.
Furthermore, I would argue that Muslim societies in general have treated human sexuality historically in a much more libertarian manner than Western society as long as discretion is respected and maintained. For instance, even though adultery is a crime in Islam to be convicted of this crime Islamically requires 4 different witnesses seeing the actual act of penetration. This standard is far too high for a witch hunt and would only be evoked in the case of explicit and unashamed public indecency. Truth is in general everyone’s personal sexual lives are supposed to be kept in the closet, hetero or homo, and whatever authorities there may be should not molest them if it so. This is just the traditional adab of Muslim society and has been so, but it is obviously something many in the Western world (amongst other things) fail to understand and consider.
People trust me, I’m just as much a product of western influence as anyone else here and I am not trying to particularly indict the West on anything. I’m simply stating that there is an embedded cultural/historical/societal difference here between the West and the Muslim world and to approach this issue in mimicry of the West will inevitably lead to failure. No different than trying to import and construct an American democracy in the Middle East without understanding and exploring the foundations of your own society if that makes sense.
Does anybody in the world recognize the needs of homosexuals? Even in the US there are still killings…not by the government, certainly…but by individuals who are whipped into a state of frenzy by religious leaders. Hatred of homosexuals is rampant.
“That’s so gay” is now a phrase spoken by school children in the US when they talk about something bad or something that isn’t “cool.” Homosexuals only have themselves…they must fight for themselves. The problem remains that so many homosexuals don’t stand up or stand out. It’s easy to hide in this world. If two people find themselves…and are happy…who needs to know? I think that’s the answer more than anything in the world. Be comfortable with your lives and not worry about broadcasting your sexual orientation. There are dangers everywhere. And yes, it sounds as if I suggest going into the closet. The closet doors are open only if we open them in our own minds. No one can control our thoughts…or feelings…if we are with the one we love. Certainly, we want to share our love.
That isn’t always possible especially in the middle east. But nobody needs to know. Only we who love someone of the same sex need to know. Our love is private…just as everybody’s love is private. Let the “straights” have the illusion they control the world. Let them think they are the only love that is worthy. It’s more fun to know they are wrong quietly than to demand their respect. If we love someone, what does it matter to others? It’s doesn’t. Oh, I’m all for human and civil rights for gays and lesbians. And if the word is public, fine. But in reality…if you love someone, it’s an exclusive relationship…exclusive of all others…and in that relationship nobody else matters in the world.
Hi Esra’a, I think I still do not get everything about your position on homosexuals… You say they do exist everywhere and that it is a “trait”. Which means it is something rooted inside of you, so no choice. But yet you say you do not support “their lifestyle”. Is it because it is against Muslim belief? So would you say that someone who is born homosexual should not lead their life that way, like live with and care for their longtime partner, but instead marry the opposite sex? I think it is very strong of you to say that you support their rights (even if you do not support their “lifestyle”)! I think it is just unbelievably sad what gays have to face in the Mideast.
Em84:
As previously noted, we are not promoting a homosexual lifestyle, so when you state this:
You are practically implying that campaigning for gay rights would mean that we would be promoting such things, which is not true. That is as nonsensical as saying that campaigning for Jewish rights in the Arab world is the same thing as destroying mosques and replacing them with synogogues. When you lead a campaign for interfaith activism; does that mean you are also promoting religious values and lifestyles of these other religions? Certainly not, the only thing you promote is coexistence and primarily, tolerance. So why do people use this logic with gay rights activism? It means protecting them from abuse. That’s all there is to it.
There are people in the Middle East who are undergoing torture (societal, familial, political, and religious) simply for being homosexual. Like I noted, some get killed, imprisoned, disowned by their own families.
Now I am not sure about you, but I personally don’t like to live in a society where innocent people go through that just because of who they are, as much as we personally disagree with how they’re living their lives.
Spanky:
You obviously didn’t read the second part of my phrase where I said, “nor is fighting for their rights.”
If you want to dismiss and justify torture and systematic abuse against homosexuals (simply for being themselves) then that just speaks volumes of who you are and what you represent. Frankly, I don’t respect that mentality. I think it’s destructive and inhumane. This is my personal take on the matter.
Hanna:
A homosexual lifestyle means being in a gay relationship and/or being attracted to and/or being emotionally attached to people of the same sex.
That goes against our societal norms. I don’t agree with this particular lifestyle, especially because it goes against my faith.
But just because I feel that way, I should watch them suffer?
As for homosexual rights, in one of my comments above I have extensively expressed my views on them and why they should be protected at all times despite them being against our norms/faith/personal values.
My advice to homophobes: If you don’t like gays - the answer is simple. Don’t be one. But don’t force everyone to live likewise. Human rights is all about individual choices, and if no harm is involved, they should be allowed to live their life under these choices. Same thing happens with religious freedoms, free speech, and all other elements of a free and just society. Why should gays be excluded from the notion of “human rights,” suddenly they are not human enough to be fought for?
Dear Esra’a
As you mentioned, we don’t have to be homosexuals to understand the urge for protecting homosexuals in our conservative societies. I believe that these people need protection every where, even in western countries, I have talked to them and I have understood they are abused at least verbally. People can live with their sexual orientations in the eastern countries, as long as they do not collide with the laws, and I guess that means to keep a low profile.
As far as I’m concerned, there are few things in this world as meaningful and important as to stand up for the rights of the least popular amongst us, particularly when they suffer abuse, discrimination, and oppression at the hands of a group of powerful elite.
Sticking up for gays and lesbians is not a western trend; it’s a universal necessity because their abuse doesn’t stop with them. Human rights issues are often connected. As long as people think they can control the body parts of others — even during (innocuous) love — homosexuals, women, and minorities will continue to face extreme abuse.
Actually, although I hear this argument a lot, it’s totally inappropriate and illogical, Spanky. Incestuous relations cause direct problems to our gene pool, and can create a drain on government resources, so society has a vested interest not to allow them. Conversely, homosexuality creates no problems for anybody except for those straight folks who can’t stop obsessing over what gays and lesbians do with their private body parts.
Thanks a lot, PV. You’ve hit the nail on the head here.
You are not a Muslim then, stop deluding yourself.
Haha, yeah, hypocracy at its best.
“Oh no! I hate homos! It’s against our religion! But I drink, have premarital sex, and even do drugs!”
Beacuse somehow these are the new pillars of Islam. Let’s all condemn one aspect of the Quran while committing the sins noted in the other 99% of the book! And then let’s all talk about it on the internet! Wow!
IDIOT, my response was to some idiot saying homosexuality is a Western trend or something along the line. So tell me, if homosexuality is a Western trend then why do these animals exhibit these behaviors?
Anyhow, this conversation isn’t going anywhere. It’s ironic the “human rights” advocates is declaring takfir against Spanky, this should show you how erroneous and superficial your thinking is. Here again is the point where you have to differentiate between beliefs and actions. You may very well believe as a Muslim (or as any human) that something is wrong, but still partake in it everyday. It’s in our very nature and a sign of all of our various weaknesses and this is why there is a special place in Islam for mercy, repentance, and eventual redemption. Point is is that partaking in homosexual activity does not preclude one from being a believer, no more than back-biting or theft. However, this is a more theological discussion and less a legal/societal one, which is what I guess you are interested in.
Here I stick with my original position that the only realistic and proper option is for homosexuality to remain in the realm of private vices as it as has always been in the Muslim world along with gambling, fornication, and adultery. Advocating for Gay Rights in the Muslim World makes as much sense as advocating for Polygamy in America, it’s a non-starter. Where it comes to the treatment of those accused or stigmatized, certain rights need to be accorded to prevent abuse such as torture etc. However, this is a different matter than advocating for the legalization of sodomy.
Animals are not Homosexuals, they prefer being heterosexual
Coexistence and tolerance: that really says it all, don’t you think?
and homosexuality is the number one reason of STD spread and the homosexual marriage is not really a productive alternative of the family institute
you guys sure you know the ABC of Islam?
the sinner (even the sodomizer) is still considered a Muslim unless he/she arrogantly defend his sin by claiming that it is not even a sin.
actually i am the one here who is the most far from hypocrisy….i am very honest with myself….what i do is called a SIN..no IFs…no BUTs….i am a sinner but not an arrogant deviant
Whatever. You still haven’t addressed the majority of the argument. Nothing is more pitiful than “human rights activists” who pick and choose who is “human” enough to fight for.
Some are simply too proud to put that ahead of their personal biasis.
Everyone loves free speech and activism until it comes to fighting for an unwanted minority or the speech of people they disagree with. That’s when all the abuse is justified instead of being fought for.
It’s so disgusting.
Esra’a:
there is a difference between supporting ‘gay rights’ and supporting ‘human rights for gays’.
Homosexuality has a well-documented history in this country, Iran, as well as the whole mother earth. this phenomenon happens very often in Iran, and as I know, nobody has ever been executed or lashed just for being gay or practicing homosexual activites in recent years (yeah, some got executed, but that had raped younger boys). Even a park in tehran, called Parke Daneshjoo or Students’ Park is famous for hosting several male whores.
thats the point. they (i.e. gays) do not (and should never) suffer persecution for just being gay. but if they are going to make a movement, do some social activites in the name of Gay Rights, request some special gay bars, etc. they wont be tolerated.
and I still see that argument of ‘incest and gay’ valid. for the same reason a western society might forbid incest or public nudity (in some cases), another society might forbid something else.
Hi Mohammad,
A commenter has already outlined how these two things are very different and are thus not worth equating:
As for this statement:
My argument here is that gays are also “human” and thus they, too, deserve “human rights.” People treat them as if they are mutants, unworthy of any kind of consideration of support.
Just because we find their lifestyle disturbing does not mean they are not worth fighting for.
And again this has nothing to do with gay marriage, gay bars, etc (these things, I am very much against, as it goes against our core values as Muslims.) I noted that gays suffer from extremism in our region, and it’s not right to watch everyone, even human rights activists, dismiss them as unworthy.
Gay rights activism is not the same in the Middle East as it would be elsewhere. In the ME they are punished severely for being gay; and I am entirely against how they are being treated.
So let me ask you a question…
A young gay teenager, 17 years old, was sentenced to execution due to his homosexuality. A petition was launched to help save this young boy, whose life is being taken away simply because of who he is, which ultimately does not cause harm to anyone at all as it is a very personal matter. This petition opposes his sentence and requests that the government and religious authorities set him free.
Would you sign it; why or why not? If not, how would you justify his death?
Let’s first acknowledge that western and eastern cultures are and probably always will be different. Great, we need diversity. However, there should be worldwide standards such as the right to live your life without the threat of torture. Setting out to change laws against gays in a Muslim theocracy is pointless, but conceding that the punishment shouldn’t involve torture would be a huge step. Look at a universal crime such as murder; in the west, the convicted at least knows that he/she cannot be punished by inhumane and brutal torture, despite how despicable we may find the crime. While I personally disagree with calling homosexuality a crime, i am not naive enough to call for a change in government (and I fully admit that our president is an idiot and I am ashamed of him).
Maybe the biggest way to tackle the issue is in the family. For all of you advocating against Esra’a, put yourself in this scenario. You go to see your family. You walk in the door and almost no one will even look at you, those who do tear you apart with their eyes as if you are some kind of monster. Your only crime has been to be yourself and for that you are no longer accepted in your own family. Eventually you are told it would be better not to come back. That scenario happens worldwide everyday to countless gay youth; it’s heartbreaking. Spanky, this is perfect for you. Despite the fact that you knowingly sin, I will bet that you have no doubt in your mind that your family still loves you.
To campaign for the rights of all humans, even the gay ones, simply promotes a message of tolerance. If you can love your heterosexual lover then I should be able to love my homosexual lover. Treat me how you would like to be treated.
a note: If you feel the need to pick apart my opinion for flaws go ahead its your right, but please don’t reply nastily towards me.
Esra’a:
I do understand what you say and claim; my comment about ‘gay rights’ and ‘human rights for gays’ was just to make it more clear, because many people are mistaken here when they compare this act to gay rights movements in west.
Indeed, I do also believe that sexual orientation of people and whatever acts they practice (as long as they have not made it a public offence) can never justify any kind of persecution.
I remember a story of a person who run toward Holy Prophet and said: “Mr. A is doing a woman who is not his wife, in his own home”. Muhammad asked the man: “How did you find it?” He said: “I looked in his home through a hole in the wall or over the wall”. Muhammad said: “then, firstly you should be punished for investigating the personal life of people, which is forbidden. Secondly, you should be again punished for accusing a person of adultery, while you cant bring 4 just witnesses”. Period.
and about that petition:
you know, whatever activities I do here in cyber world is under my real name. then, let me tell honestly that if a good deed is likely to endanger my life and is less likely to do a fair favor to the wronged, I might avoid it.
about this exact example: if I know that this person is sentenced to death just for doing a consensual homomsexuality and this matter is said explicitly in that petition, I would sign it; for in this case, I can support my cause even in a court. but if there is rape in his case, I would avoid.
sorry if Im too coward.
Can you quote the Quran that says all the things you just said.
[…] blog post on the Mideast Youth network is a call to action for gay rights, a touchy subject that some are not […]
Hmm…
Now, I don’t know if any of you will take me seriously, since, as a seller of alchohol I’m kind of an Uber Sinner in Islam, but over the course of a few years I delivered spirits to the gay district in Toronto. When I started this route, I didn’t particularly approve of gays, and didn’t like thinking about gay sex (anal and oral sex not really being my thing). However, I soon found the gay population to be polite, nice people, witty and charming. I ate a free lunch twice a week at Woody’s (heh), one of the largest gay bars in the district, and never wanted for a coffee, a bottle of water or pop, or a beer at the end of the day. Now, some stuff I found pretty uncomfortable (bathhouses, bondage clubs) but no more so than seeing some poor cracked out stripper or barfly in the “respectable” part of town. During my time there I was never harassed, insulted, treated badly, assaulted or pilfered, statements I cannot make regarding the rest of the city. I was certainly never asked or pressured to become gay, but was welcomed gratefully when I demonstrated simply that I was not a homophobe. As to whether or not being gay is an innate or developed trait, I have no idea. I can tell you that virtually all of the gay friends I have are bearing a burden of sadness because of the judgements of others, not themselves.
Now, the limits of tolerance in any society are always grey areas. What is legal is not always what is acceptable, and vice versa. The fundamental principles, however, are unchanged. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Perhaps there are people who prefer that their private lives or sexual activities be monitored by the general public, and their private activites (consenual adults, mind you! Child molesters deserve a bullet) be subject to criminal legislation. I just never met anyone who actually didn’t turn out to be a hypocrite in this preference. Spanky, and all the rest who choose to judge homosexuals:
“Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone”
As for me, i’ll keep it short in simple.. It took me a while to scroll down to the reply box, going through the essays you guys conjured up on this issue..
I’d vote No..
Why?
Three main reasons come to mind..
- I’m a muslim, and Homosexuality is a serious issue that cannot be tolerated in islam for several reasons.. (But being that this is a biased reason, and not all human kind are muslims, so you can cancel that)..
- Gay relations for both genders have given rise to HPV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis and the all might GBS “it’s called gay bowel syndrome”.. I mean we’re having problems with STD’s and HIV’s in premarital sex (which is on it’s own a hetero problem) then do we need to add more?
- I think we should learn from what happened to Rome before it begins on a larger scale..
Other than that, i guess that sums some of my views on this..
Yours,
Lou..
If you stop and think about it … the real perversion is for a government first to determine who is helping Citizen X have an orgasm before deciding the extent of his/her human and civil rights.
@ Lou:
You don’t give any serious reason.
1) You’re a Muslim. Here I have to take my “western” values - I’m a strong follower of the idea of laicism, which means religion and government (including the judiciary) should not be mixed. So, religious rules should not stand higher than the equality of all human beings. Even religion cannot be counted if it does not give reasons.
2) No reason. Whoever has sex while knowing he’s infected with HIV or some other sexually transmitted disease commits a crime. Nobody should be punished for ‘maybe’ committing a crime - he either does or does not. If he does, he may be sentenced for it.
3) haha, funny.
—
I’m living in some of a very liberal country. Our two largest cities have gay mayors, there’s some of a same-sex marriage, CSD’s attended by millions of people. And I’m damned happy about that because it means a bit more freedom in our society. Freedom which is not my freedom as I’m not gay, but, as everybody should know: There cannot be a free society if the individual is not free. Therefore I cannot understand how anybody can say he’s for freedom (or human rights or however you may call it), but than deny the rights of homosexual people on it.
eric,
I like your appraoch, you are not a gay and you don’t hate or discriminate them as well, you will not try to put your kids in situations that they might habitually fall into that category, but you respect them as a man should respect another humand being.
But that is in Toronto, life is different here. One may get killed for being gay and announcing that publicly.
There are two simple opposing points the debate reflects:
1) Is religion to be enforced for the greater good?
One side believes that for there to be purity of heart, each person must choose to believe and follow religious teachings.
The other side believes that adherence, even if involuntary, is required to be pure of heart.
This in Islam is the same argument in Christianity - Faith or Works which has also been battled for millenia. Those who believed in forcing people were the ones that slaughtered many during the Crusades.
2) The tie breaker is whether you believe Human Rights are inherent to the human experience and endorsed by your diety.
If every human being has the right to be alive and free from oppression by another human being - answerable only to their maker, then forcing anyone to act like you want them to violates human rights.
If the way you dress, the way you talk, or the way you are outwardly to other people is the way to purity of religion then you also believe in forcing others to look, talk, and be outwardly as you are and human rights don’t exist at all.
So, the question comes down to - in your own heart - do you believe that true religious purity comes from inside or at the end of a whip?
One answer allows for human rights, the other allows for the most base human violence in its pursuit.
The third question is whether you believe the final question to be asked of you when you shed the mortal coil is “How many have you killed?” or “Did you live my way in purity of heart, respecting ALL of my creation?”
These questions are not western questions, put any religion to these questions and the answer will be the same. Every deity wants those who believe, not just mimics.
Well I have tried “campaigning” for some events [nothing compared 2 this!] n it gets turned down just bcuz there are not many ppl in it…
maybe when there are more homosexual’s declaring them selves.. u’ll have more support
Partaking in a homosexual lifestyle or in homosexual acts is a choice. Yes, there may be a confluence of biological underpinnings and even environmental factors that lead to this sexual preference, but people are still accountable for their actions. Just b/c one can argue for a biological basis for kleptomania does not excuse the actions that are derived from it since there is no such thing as a “gay gene.” Similarly, adulterers could similarly excuse their actions on the basis of some biologically derived sexual addiction should not make it be perceived as any less wretched of an act by society.
The point remains the same that the Muslim world has its own certain set of sexual mores and propriety. Just b/c the West does not follow these standards or has different standards does not make ours any less valid or valuable. If the West considers homosexuality, pornography, and the overall commodification of sex to be something worthwhile and “alright” then so be it, it is obviously a conclusion they have come to through their own natural development.
However, if you are so uncritical of the western discourse on sexual rights or what constitute human rights, then how do you feel about prostitution? In much of the western europe not only is prostitution a human right, but these “progressive” governments go so far as to tax and derive revenue from the bodies of these women. Is this too something we should be fighting for in the Middle East? while the real issues of economic exploitation and government mismanagement go uncontested and are often abetted (even if indirectly) by those who abuse as uncouth and backwards.
Simon..
As much as i love the snide attacks on my personal views, let us play around with words.. Shall we?
- My islamic reason behind my views were cancelled by me, if you actually took the time to read what i wrote between brackets.. So yeah, i know that secular rule can be better not to mix both religion and humanity, but in my opinions, and for my reasons and the other religious reasons (which for me are convincing enough), i stated that opinion.. That cancellation i did was to avoid remarks like yours.. But still, thanks for that slice of pie..
- I think i specifically mentioned the garden variety of diseases that came out of Anal-insertion affiliated sexual relationships.. Wether you wear a condom or some space material rubber, there’s still that small chance of getting something off the buffet.. Plus, Bowel related issues are inflected more than infected to be honest with you.. When i added HIV and AIDS, it was creating a small glossary of a sort..
- Am glad you liked it.. Haha, i made another funny..
All good, be a sport, and protect what YOU believe in.. As i always love to say “Justify your reasons to believe”..
Jeff, in Middle East religion is playing a vital role which one cannot just dismiss, perhaps it is better to consider the brighter aspects of religion being practiced and the practice being demanded, like less HIV ( among those who really practice it), many other things. SO instead of taking a powerful aspect out of people’s lives, why not making a proper use of it, in a way that benefits people. Yes religion should not be forced upon the seculars or people who do not share a religious point of view with others, but religion is a sensitive issue, people shouldn’t think they are being played with, regarding their religious sentiments.
I can look this up if you want me to, but I believe sometime in the Spring of this year Iranian and British MPs were conferencing over something and the subject came up and was later reported. One of the Iranians said that Gays should be tortured and killed, but that it wasn’t a problem if kept private.
I wasn’t quite sure what to make of that; it sounds like he’s saying, “just don’t get caught” which is really confusing.
You know what people? As far as I’m concerned, much of the problem is that “society” is too consumed with everyone else’s irrelevant private business, like what they’ve got going on in and out of their pants/skirt, and not concerned enough with whether they have enough food to eat, clean drinking water, or access to medicine for curable diseases.
Well said peaceful
Indeed
ADMIT IT, YOUR GAY AREN’T YOU PV!!!
It’s more like, “don’t do it, because if we find out, we’re going to torture and kill you. So you better be good at hiding it.”
It’s not like “great, we’re happy for you, but shhh don’t tell anyone.”
Gay rights is a women’s rights issue. The vast majority of gay men in a society that doesn’t tolerate homosexuality are married to women and lead a secret life. Their wife becomes the victim. She only serves one purpose - to make it look like her husband isn’t gay.
Since you seem to be having a debate about a group who is not very well represented in this forum (kind of like a bunch of evangelical Christians in the US debating the merits of Islam- what do they know about Islam?) I will give my story. I am gay, Jewish and Israeli. I do not have a “lifestyle” (unless you consider heavy coffee drinking a lifestyle). I did not choose to be gay. I did not choose to be attracted to other men. At 11, when talking with friends about women and sex, I realized pretty quickly that although women are gorgeous, I am sexually attracted to men. I do not act like a woman. I do not have an inclination to dress like a woman or be a woman. I actually LOVE women and have tremendous respect for women (and what they have to put up with from men). I am just attracted to men. Not little boys, Men. I have been waiting to see if this is a phase. 26 year later, still waiting. Not a phase.
I am married to another man and we have a son. He thinks we are amazing parents and doesn’t care that he has two dads and no mom. We lived in Israel and Canada and were accepted by everyone who ever spent more than 5 minutes with us and this includes religious, non-religious, traditional, non-traditional, Muslims, Christians and Jews and even those who thought gay people were disgusting and should be put in concentration camps. My husband comes from a traditional Yemenite/Kurdish family who thought being gay was a disease. They changed their views when he told them he was gay and they have accepted me fully as his partner ever since. They are amazing grandparents to our son and I have total respect for them.
My concern is not with this ridiculous argument of what a gay lifestyle is or whether it is a choice or can be compared to incest. My concern is with the many Palestinian and Israeli gays I know who risk their lives not based on something they chose, but based on who they are as human beings. It is estimated that 25% of suicide attempts are made by gay youth. I too planned my own suicide at 16 assuming that the world would never accept me. It is not being gay that makes you suicidal. It is dealing with cultures around you, your own family, who prefer you to be dead than gay. That is my concern.
So if you want to have this ridiculous argument about what is says in the Koran or the Bible or if it is Western influence, feel free. Meanwhile, approximately 4% of youth that you likely know, are suffering because they live in a society or are believers in a religion that won’t accept them. I think you are cowards to not reach out to gay youth.
Thanks for sharing your story, but something about your tone ticks me off:
I think you haven’t clicked on the “homosexuality” category to see how much voice we have given to homosexual men and women in the Middle East, which very few websites dare to do. So please be careful whom you call cowards. We did very much in terms of homosexual activism within this website, just by speaking up for their rights, by inviting them to write with us, by empowering intiatives. Here we are not talking about cowardness, so much as we are talking about homosexuality being a justified taboo, an untouchable sin that is treated far worse than actual crimes. We are talking about hypocricy, religious and otherwise.
Stop saying “gay lifestyle”. IT’S NOT. It’s like saying hetero lifestyle, did you choose to be attracted to the opposite gender or are you attracted to the opposite gender naturally?
What do people don’t understand about “gay lifestyle?” And why are people obsessing about terminology?
A lifestyle means a certain way in which people do things.
Activists have a certain lifestyle. Pregnant people have a certain lifestyle. Different communities or different sub-cultures have certain lifestyles. We all live differently. Get over it.
Lifestyle refers to personal choices and behavioral choices, being gay is not a freaking LIFESTYLE. It’s not a choice.
Hi gay guy,
Gay guy, if you find my questions intimidating please ignore them, i did not mean to offend, but I need to ask these questions from a gay person not from a sraight person talking on behalf of a gay.
I have some questions
When the kid grows up, how would you like him to be a gay or a straight person? Would you leave that all to him? How much having gay parents might influence the sexual orientation of the kid when he/she grows up?
Are you in Tel Aviv when you are in Israel? How do religious people react when you openly tell them you are gay? Does that treatment differ city from city in Israel?
Thank you very much and have a happy new year gay guy
Lifestyle doesn’t mean a choice. Arabs have a particular lifestyle too, distinguishable from all others, it doesn’t mean any of us “chose” to be Arabs, just like people don’t particularly choose to be gay. Lifestyle simply means a distinguishable way of life, in which a certain people lead their lives a certain way.
Hi Elinor,
Don’t worry. Your questions are fine.
Do I care if my son is straight or gay? No. And I don’t think it is a choice. I have never met a gay man in my life who suddenly decided to be gay. It is like choosing to be attracted to the opposite sex. It is out of our hands. I suppose the only reason I would want my son to be straight is only to prove that gay parents can’t create gay children. But regardless, it would be a little hypocritical of me to try to make him turn out one way or another. Trust me, my parents didn’t try to make me gay
From the friends we have who are lesbian or gay parents, I don’t see any difference in how their children are over our non-gay parent friends. Again, if parenting style or example could make someone gay, there would probably be a lot more gay people everywhere. I had a co-worker who was sure being gay was a trend that cool people try to aspire to. Trust me, I am the least cool person you will ever meet. I am a total geek.
I have found in Israel that bigotry can be anywhere and towards anyone- small minded people are small minded people who often choose not to ask questions. I have also found that everyone I have met, when challenged on their views, accepted me as a human being instead of a concept that they hear about. That includes religious people as well. One co-worker who was in the process of becoming religious told me he decided to come out of the closet at work (being a religious Jew) as a joke. I don’t really believe that I changed their entire view on homosexuality but my hope is to create a better world for my son (with less bigotry in general) and for other gay people particularly youth.
Sorry, a few things I forgot to mention.
First, (to Elinor) this is Corey who writes in GNBlog some times. I gave the name gayguy to make it obvious that I was writing as a gay person. I don’t like when people describe a group they don’t know very well yet are sure they know the issues. Most gay people (particularly in the Middle East) hide and may feel uncomfortable posting so I wanted to make a strong statement.
No, we never lived in Tel Aviv (can’t afford it). I have always lived with my husband in small villages/towns or in the suburbs. The last place we lived is a small town outside Tel Aviv called Yehud. It is not a very progressive place- lots of “arsim” (lower class people- hopefully I won’t get in trouble to that term. I come from a family of arsim if that makes people feel better :-)) We had great friendships with out neighbours who had the same “lifestyle” as us: working families, trying to get dinner made, tidy up the house, wanting our kids to have the best opportunities possible, hoping the mother-in-law won’t tell me how to raise my son, etc. We did get some looks at the beginning when the gossips in the building couldn’t understand why two men had a 1 year old. Once we got to know them and were invited over for kubbe, the ice was broken.
Esra’a, I meant no personal offence. I will check out the homosexuality category.
Corey
Hi Corey!
Any way thank you for your responses, it is good to know how the issue is handles around Middle East and around the world, later here in the saem post I will tell you about how the issue is treated in my country. Take care Corey
Esra’a,
I do agree with you dear, we do not chose to be who we are to begin with, if we are Arabs, if we are Persians and Jews. Some how we refedine ourselves as we grow up and we alter the way we are defined, extending the defining borders as to reach out to more people who are difined differently at least in the surface structure of society. This is what is happening right here in your forum MidEastYouth
Ahhhhhhh, you can change your lifestyle because it’s a choice, you can wake up one day and say I am going to be a hooker go prostitute yourself to strangers. As a gay person, you can’t wake up one day and go… ohh gee.. I think I am going to start being attracted to women. No you can’t, that’s what I am talking about. Your attraction to the same gender will be there forever, till the day you die. It won’t change and you can’t change it.
You’re right to an extent, Jina. In addition, I often wonder whose lifestyle in particular we are talking about since the gay community is extremely diverse and not easily represented by any particular sub-group. Gay men and women live all sorts of lives. I can tell plenty of stories about who and what I saw in Hollywood nightclubs when I would sneak out my house late at night during high school, and rest assured, the folks I’m thinking of definitely are not living the same lifestyles that “Gay guy Corey” above does.
However, all that said, Esra’a is also right since it cannot be denied that some gay people in fact do adhere to a certain culture and politic that revolve around their homosexuality, which means for them it is a lifestyle. Most likely, the reason why this occurs within the gay community is because gays and lesbians historically have not been allowed self-expression within mainstream society, are forced to feel like unrepresented minorities, and denied many rights, so it’s only normal to choose to create identities that incorporate that sense of disenfranchisement and, hence, rebellion into them.
I guess what this all boils down to is that, yes, there absolutely is a gay lifestyle as anybody who has been to the French Market Cafe in West Hollywood knows, but it is not mainstreamed throughout the gay community.
LOL LOL LOL Becuz of course only a gay dude would dare defend the rights of gay people, aint that right you brute?
I just want to say the discussions I’ve been having lately with some other Arabs on this issue really makes me appreciate this site a lot more.
Nice to see such a great input on this topic. And I think it is important to clarify the implication that the word “lifestyle” has. (That is why I asked you, Esra, and thanks for your answer!) I can just confirm what some of you wrote: Being gay is not a choice. And as far as I know in American or English-speaking debates the people who use “gay lifestyle” are suggesting that you can cure people from it. But you cannot. Maybe the only choice you have (in some countries) is whether you accept it for yourself and decide to live in a same-sex partnership. Or if you hide it and try to play straight. But in my opinion the only way you can feel as a whole complete and happy person is to accept it. And of course by playing straight in a heterosexual marriage will also be unhappy for your husband/wife.
Hi Hanna, thanks for your comments.
Just to pick up where some others left off: I just don’t see how “choice” has anything to do with any of this, to be honest. Every time I bring this up, people start talking about whether it’s a choice or not, and it distracts the whole discussion. I think people bring up “choices” in almost every thread about homosexuality we’ve had, and it has stopped so many great debates from taking place, because we’d all be discussing this instead which we have done many times before.
Lifestyle has nothing to do with choices, in this particular case, and in the manner in which I used it. I don’t know how we ended up having a discussion about something that is essentially irrelevant to what I was aiming for with my post.
Gay guy Wrote:
Gay guy also Wrote:
Would you say then that the perception of intolerance is as big a problem as intolerance itself? In places such as Canada and Israel I mean?
MOST teenager’s have had a sucide thought go through their head sometime or another.. and MOST of them come really close to doing it.. its not just gays who think of Suicide.. :S
Dr. Abdel-Sabour Shahin of Cairo University called on authorities to prosecute the director of the movie Hina Maysara (Until Further Notice) and the two actresses, Ghada Abdel-Razeq and Sumaya Al-Khashab, who enacted the lesbian encounter on the big screen.
Shahin claimed the movie is part of “a Zionist and American conspiracy” which uses this sort of movie to destroy the moral fabric of society.
alarabiya.net
Even in Australia statistically gay and lesbian youth are about 3 times more likely than a straight kid to attempt or commit suicide. I think this is why reaching out to gay and lesbian youth to let them know that they are not alone, and despite what their family, peers and media say they are a valuable person, is important.
My partners mother from Syria just visited us (she was told we are housemates). At the end of the 3 weeks she told me that I was part of the family now (and the discussion that she initiated with her son made it clear that SHE knew what was going on between us).
At the age of 42, I have found that many people I have met in my life get to know you as a a person, and if and when your being gay becomes relevant, they like you for who you are and accept it.
Its only what you do when you close the bedroom door that is “different”. I dont ask about or judge them for what they do in their bedroom, and dont expect they will judge me. I have never understood why Christian Fundamentalists are so interested in what people do behind their bedroom doors, and they choose to spend millions of dollars in supporting anti-gay politicians (ie the right wing christian cult called Exclusive Brethren).
Anyway, initially I thought that a traditional Syrian mother in her 70s would go crazy if she found out about her sons homosexuality and relationship - but no, she is fine with it - “Just dont tell your father”. Thats because father is VERY WORRIED about what others think… its all about reputation and what he thinks others will think of him and the family.
She would no doubt prefer my partner was “straight” and had kids to carry on the family name, and to look after him when he is old - but thats what I am here for - and why we have superannuation (insurance) - as our Australian society is different to the overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern, Asian and even European cultures where the family is first - and kids support the family.
Even here in Australia many people who are homosexual choose NOT to act on it and take the “hetero” route - marry and have kids. Often they can carry it off for life - but more often than not they cannot “live the lie”, and separate from their spouse and share the kids (or often lose access to them). In the process they affect lives of many around them - and go through a lot of trauma - but hopefully everyone (adults and kids) survives the coming out and usual break up of the family unit.
With education about homosexuality as a valid sexuality, and acceptance of it (or tolerance as a first step on the road to acceptance) many of these people may then have chosen to move forward with a same sex relationship, rather than choose to try to bow to society and family pressure by “appearing” to be straight.
There was another comment in this thread about Iran being a fine place to live for homosexuals.
Unfortunately I think the writer is out of touch.
A Persian friend I have made (who was kept in immigration detention in Australia for 6 years), was running 30 mins late to go to a gathering of some gay friends at a private home in Tehran. As he pulled up in the taxi the police were dragging out the 10 or so other guys who had already arrived. He had heard of this kind of thing before (with people disappearing never to be heard of again - assumedly either being left to rot forever in a jail, or executed). So scared for his life he fled in the clothes he had on his back, accessed his bank accounts to get his money and contacted the people smugglers and made his way via Indonesia to Australia.
Unfortunately that does not sound like a very tolerant country to me - remember recently the leader said in the UN that there are no homosexuals in Iran (maybe because he knows he has driven most of them out of the country with fear).
And unfortunately, a few male whores in a park do not mean a society is “tolerant” (from what I can gather from the current Iranian regime it probably means that they are on the payroll of someone in the police to get information on the clients in order to round them up). Even in the “enlightened west” male prostitutes are not always homosexual, but often heterosexual men who will engage in homosexual acts for money (gay for pay).
It seems in past years Iran HAD been a wonderful enlightened place - but the current regime is certainly on record as not tolerating homosexuals in any form. Changes in regimes/leaders in other countries in the Middle East certainly have led to greater enlightenment for the society, while still retaining the core values of Islam.
I am new to this forum and find it intriguing, and hope that your work can keep the discussions happening, and help in some way to influence public perceptions.
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