Comments on: Are Clean Hands Possible In A World So Filled With Dirt? http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/ Thinking Ahead Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:46:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: elinor(Iran) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16385 elinor(Iran) Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:17:59 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16385 Hi devika:) Nice topic for a debate :) In a Persian poem it was said: " Esarat ra Asire Khasteh Midanad, ve ghadre marg ra AAn morghake Par basteh midanad." Meaning : " A person who had experienced being a captive, being in persionm this person is capable of understanding captivity, and the pain and horror of being killed, would a little bird understand, a bird with wings tied, awaiting slaughter." What I mean by writing down this poem, is that people who have bad experiences, they have two ways of dealing with it, one is to make all others suffer the way they have suffered, or they can help people around them, so that this wouldn't happen to them, so that no one would face the wrong things, so that people would have the chances the person never had, or the person obtained, struggling so hard. I can say the same thing cane apply to politicans as well. Mandela spent many many years of his life in prison, the moment he stepped out, he made sure that wouldn't be the destiny of any one, even his opponents,, now he cannot just be called a politician, he is a human being with a glorious human soul before being any thing else, and that indeed reflects in his policies and the way he handles politics as a politician. Devika :) Perhaps one day you will make a good politician yourself :) Hi devika:)
Nice topic for a debate :)
In a Persian poem it was said:
” Esarat ra Asire Khasteh Midanad, ve ghadre marg ra AAn morghake Par basteh midanad.”

Meaning : ” A person who had experienced being a captive, being in persionm this person is capable of understanding captivity, and the pain and horror of being killed, would a little bird understand, a bird with wings tied, awaiting slaughter.”

What I mean by writing down this poem, is that people who have bad experiences, they have two ways of dealing with it, one is to make all others suffer the way they have suffered, or they can help people around them, so that this wouldn’t happen to them, so that no one would face the wrong things, so that people would have the chances the person never had, or the person obtained, struggling so hard. I can say the same thing cane apply to politicans as well. Mandela spent many many years of his life in prison, the moment he stepped out, he made sure that wouldn’t be the destiny of any one, even his opponents,, now he cannot just be called a politician, he is a human being with a glorious human soul before being any thing else, and that indeed reflects in his policies and the way he handles politics as a politician. Devika :) Perhaps one day you will make a good politician yourself :)

]]> By: devika http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16384 devika Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:36:49 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16384 I have a debate on Good people do not make bad politicians. Any thoughts comments quotes suggestions on how I can approaCH THIS TOPIC? I have a debate on Good people do not make bad politicians. Any thoughts comments quotes suggestions on how I can approaCH THIS TOPIC?

]]> By: Elinor (Iran) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16383 Elinor (Iran) Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:50 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16383 Nissim, I agree, the same little devils in Notre Dam's hunchback( the cartoon), they were cute :) Nissim,
I agree, the same little devils in Notre Dam’s hunchback( the cartoon), they were cute :)

]]> By: Global Voices Online » Arabeyes: Sad for Bhutto http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16382 Global Voices Online » Arabeyes: Sad for Bhutto Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:42:54 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16382 [...] him of “the sense of hopelessness that permeates much of the world.” He further continues: I am not a student of Pakistan’s history. And I have been made to understand, of late, that in [...] [...] him of “the sense of hopelessness that permeates much of the world.” He further continues: I am not a student of Pakistan’s history. And I have been made to understand, of late, that in [...]

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16381 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Wed, 02 Jan 2008 04:11:14 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16381 I don't think we can get rid of evil, Elinor. But we can tip the balance between good and evil, toward the good, toward what makes sense. Evil will always be around, if for nothing else, than to give definition to good, good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil. God had no choice but to creat the possibility of both. But evil can be kept to a minimum, as you suggest, by our collective decision to pursue the good instead. I don’t think we can get rid of evil, Elinor. But we can tip the balance between good and evil, toward the good, toward what makes sense. Evil will always be around, if for nothing else, than to give definition to good, good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil. God had no choice but to creat the possibility of both. But evil can be kept to a minimum, as you suggest, by our collective decision to pursue the good instead.

]]> By: elinor(Iran) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16380 elinor(Iran) Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:36:01 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16380 Nissim, What I grasp from your vision reminds me of what and inspiring figure said, some years back in a message to the world.He said there are ways to push back evil, and many decide on fighting back the evil so good would be resulted in through this struggle, but there are some other ways as spreading good all over the place and that way gradually, by the grace of G-d evil will be replaced by good. Nissim,
What I grasp from your vision reminds me of what and inspiring figure said, some years back in a message to the world.He said there are ways to push back evil, and many decide on fighting back the evil so good would be resulted in through this struggle, but there are some other ways as spreading good all over the place and that way gradually, by the grace of G-d evil will be replaced by good.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16379 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:01:47 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16379 I couldn't agree more, Elinor. It is still possible to set this world on a slightly different path, one that points to the possibility of peace. But to make it more than possible, we will have to find a way to come together, and to speak, as you say, with "one voice." This website is a good start in that direction. But much more will have to be done: 1. Start spreading the word. 2. Find a way to talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity. 3. Get the ear of wealthy and powerful people who feel like leaving this earth a little better than they found it. 4. Invest in projects which resonate with hope, which create jobs, and which protect the environment. What if you could make money, by creating jobs, which protect the environment? What a trip. 5. Sell people on a Vision of Hope, and chuck all the BS which clouds our thinking. 6. Sustain the hope with projects that give the hope a basis in reality, like empowering women. 7. And when you have to, you fight. But you'll know what the hell you're fighting for. You're not fighting a "war against terror." You're fighting a war to win the peace, to realize a Vision of Hope on the ground. Elinor, a lot of good people have a lot of good ideas. Somehow, we have to find a way to give substance to these good ideas by creating realities on the ground which speak louder than words. We have the power to do that. Especially the power of the young people on this website, such as yourself, who sense that change is needed, and that it may just be possible as well. I couldn’t agree more, Elinor. It is still possible to set this world on a slightly different path, one that points to the possibility of peace. But to make it more than possible, we will have to find a way to come together, and to speak, as you say, with “one voice.”

This website is a good start in that direction. But much more will have to be done:

1. Start spreading the word.

2. Find a way to talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity.

3. Get the ear of wealthy and powerful people who feel like leaving this earth a little better than they found it.

4. Invest in projects which resonate with hope, which create jobs, and which protect the environment. What if you could make money, by creating jobs, which protect the environment? What a trip.

5. Sell people on a Vision of Hope, and chuck all the BS which clouds our thinking.

6. Sustain the hope with projects that give the hope a basis in reality, like empowering women.

7. And when you have to, you fight. But you’ll know what the hell you’re fighting for. You’re not fighting a “war against terror.” You’re fighting a war to win the peace, to realize a Vision of Hope on the ground.

Elinor, a lot of good people have a lot of good ideas. Somehow, we have to find a way to give substance to these good ideas by creating realities on the ground which speak louder than words. We have the power to do that. Especially the power of the young people on this website, such as yourself, who sense that change is needed, and that it may just be possible as well.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16378 Elinor (Iran) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:00:09 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16378 Nissim, I guess you looked into the same thing from another angle. Why I stress on Middle East is because I belong here, and there are too many issues in this little strategic region that load the atmosphere with more than it can bear. To make a difference we have to start from some where, so it is more convenient to look about and find the right ways and right tools and right people who would collaborate. Now as to indivituals, they cannot do any thing in particular if they do not have a voice, if wise people who would stress on non-violent methods are backed and elected by people, if constitutions of the regional countries support all those fundamental issues you were discussing, then we can assume things will move forward in the right direction and the course of eents will lead to the development of the region, our region as a constituent of this little globe. Nissim,
I guess you looked into the same thing from another angle. Why I stress on Middle East is because I belong here, and there are too many issues in this little strategic region that load the atmosphere with more than it can bear. To make a difference we have to start from some where, so it is more convenient to look about and find the right ways and right tools and right people who would collaborate. Now as to indivituals, they cannot do any thing in particular if they do not have a voice, if wise people who would stress on non-violent methods are backed and elected by people, if constitutions of the regional countries support all those fundamental issues you were discussing, then we can assume things will move forward in the right direction and the course of eents will lead to the development of the region, our region as a constituent of this little globe.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16377 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:47:32 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16377 Elinor, I think I can see where you're going with this. You envision a time when cooperation between the Middle Eastern countries will trump the tendency to fight and out-do one another. That same scenario may come about in the world as a whole, but most of the time it seems like a long shot. Througout recent history, countries have competed with one another for wealth and power. But there is a pattern emerging. Because of the expanding universe of knowledge, technology is brining the world together, and so too is the world coming together economically, at least in some areas. And yet, with all this "coming together," there are problems emerging which will require unprecedented amounts of global cooperation. Global Warming is an example. Technology and econonmics have created the problem. And only extreme levels of cooperation will solve it. Another example is the widening gap between the rich and the poor. As this gap widens, the pressure is on to find a way to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future, for the sake of peace. The people of the world are therefore poised to make a momentous decision. Are we going to find a way to come together- technologically, economically, and ideologically- in order to solve some of these big-ass problems? Or are we going to allow our out of control technologies, our unjust economies, and our off the wall ideologies, to be turned against us in war. This is the real issue of our time. We have progressed to the point where critical decisions have to be made which will ultimately define our destiny as a species. What our generation does in this regard will very much determine our collective fate. Elinor, I think I can see where you’re going with this. You envision a time when cooperation between the Middle Eastern countries will trump the tendency to fight and out-do one another.

That same scenario may come about in the world as a whole, but most of the time it seems like a long shot.

Througout recent history, countries have competed with one another for wealth and power. But there is a pattern emerging. Because of the expanding universe of knowledge, technology is brining the world together, and so too is the world coming together economically, at least in some areas. And yet, with all this “coming together,” there are problems emerging which will require unprecedented amounts of global cooperation. Global Warming is an example. Technology and econonmics have created the problem. And only extreme levels of cooperation will solve it. Another example is the widening gap between the rich and the poor. As this gap widens, the pressure is on to find a way to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future, for the sake of peace.

The people of the world are therefore poised to make a momentous decision. Are we going to find a way to come together- technologically, economically, and ideologically- in order to solve some of these big-ass problems? Or are we going to allow our out of control technologies, our unjust economies, and our off the wall ideologies, to be turned against us in war.

This is the real issue of our time. We have progressed to the point where critical decisions have to be made which will ultimately define our destiny as a species. What our generation does in this regard will very much determine our collective fate.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16376 Elinor (Iran) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:35:08 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-16376 Brian, defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our " willingness to fight". Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world. I don't call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface. So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story. There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa'di from Shiraz. It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa'di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa'di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says," Wait, he will learn his lessons." The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa'di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons. You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else. extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation). We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don't worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn't meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining. As to myself, I feel for all people of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce). Brian,
defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our ” willingness to fight”. Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world.
I don’t call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface.
So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story.
There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa’di from Shiraz.
It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa’di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa’di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says,” Wait, he will learn his lessons.”
The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa’di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons.
You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else.
extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation).
We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don’t worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn’t meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining.
As to myself, I feel for all people of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce).

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