Comments on: Are Clean Hands Possible In A World So Filled With Dirt? http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/ Promoting a fierce but respectful dialogue among the highly diverse youth of the Middle East Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:54:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: elinor(Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-211204 elinor(Iran) Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:17:59 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-211204 Hi devika:) Nice topic for a debate :) In a Persian poem it was said: " Esarat ra Asire Khasteh Midanad, ve ghadre marg ra AAn morghake Par basteh midanad."Meaning : " A person who had experienced being a captive, being in persionm this person is capable of understanding captivity, and the pain and horror of being killed, would a little bird understand, a bird with wings tied, awaiting slaughter."What I mean by writing down this poem, is that people who have bad experiences, they have two ways of dealing with it, one is to make all others suffer the way they have suffered, or they can help people around them, so that this wouldn't happen to them, so that no one would face the wrong things, so that people would have the chances the person never had, or the person obtained, struggling so hard. I can say the same thing cane apply to politicans as well. Mandela spent many many years of his life in prison, the moment he stepped out, he made sure that wouldn't be the destiny of any one, even his opponents,, now he cannot just be called a politician, he is a human being with a glorious human soul before being any thing else, and that indeed reflects in his policies and the way he handles politics as a politician. Devika :) Perhaps one day you will make a good politician yourself :) Hi devika:)
Nice topic for a debate :)
In a Persian poem it was said:
” Esarat ra Asire Khasteh Midanad, ve ghadre marg ra AAn morghake Par basteh midanad.”

Meaning : ” A person who had experienced being a captive, being in persionm this person is capable of understanding captivity, and the pain and horror of being killed, would a little bird understand, a bird with wings tied, awaiting slaughter.”

What I mean by writing down this poem, is that people who have bad experiences, they have two ways of dealing with it, one is to make all others suffer the way they have suffered, or they can help people around them, so that this wouldn’t happen to them, so that no one would face the wrong things, so that people would have the chances the person never had, or the person obtained, struggling so hard. I can say the same thing cane apply to politicans as well. Mandela spent many many years of his life in prison, the moment he stepped out, he made sure that wouldn’t be the destiny of any one, even his opponents,, now he cannot just be called a politician, he is a human being with a glorious human soul before being any thing else, and that indeed reflects in his policies and the way he handles politics as a politician. Devika :) Perhaps one day you will make a good politician yourself :)

]]> By: devikahttp://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-208588 devika Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:36:49 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-208588 I have a debate on Good people do not make bad politicians. Any thoughts comments quotes suggestions on how I can approaCH THIS TOPIC? I have a debate on Good people do not make bad politicians. Any thoughts comments quotes suggestions on how I can approaCH THIS TOPIC?

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100992 Elinor (Iran) Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:50 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100992 Nissim, I agree, the same little devils in Notre Dam's hunchback( the cartoon), they were cute :) Nissim,
I agree, the same little devils in Notre Dam’s hunchback( the cartoon), they were cute :)

]]> By: Global Voices Online » Arabeyes: Sad for Bhuttohttp://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100922 Global Voices Online » Arabeyes: Sad for Bhutto Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:42:54 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100922 [...] him of “the sense of hopelessness that permeates much of the world.” He further continues: I am not a student of Pakistan’s history. And I have been made to understand, of late, that in [...] [...] him of “the sense of hopelessness that permeates much of the world.” He further continues: I am not a student of Pakistan’s history. And I have been made to understand, of late, that in [...]

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100529 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Wed, 02 Jan 2008 04:11:14 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100529 I don't think we can get rid of evil, Elinor. But we can tip the balance between good and evil, toward the good, toward what makes sense. Evil will always be around, if for nothing else, than to give definition to good, good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil. God had no choice but to creat the possibility of both. But evil can be kept to a minimum, as you suggest, by our collective decision to pursue the good instead. I don’t think we can get rid of evil, Elinor. But we can tip the balance between good and evil, toward the good, toward what makes sense. Evil will always be around, if for nothing else, than to give definition to good, good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil. God had no choice but to creat the possibility of both. But evil can be kept to a minimum, as you suggest, by our collective decision to pursue the good instead.

]]> By: elinor(Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100497 elinor(Iran) Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:36:01 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100497 Nissim, What I grasp from your vision reminds me of what and inspiring figure said, some years back in a message to the world.He said there are ways to push back evil, and many decide on fighting back the evil so good would be resulted in through this struggle, but there are some other ways as spreading good all over the place and that way gradually, by the grace of G-d evil will be replaced by good. Nissim,
What I grasp from your vision reminds me of what and inspiring figure said, some years back in a message to the world.He said there are ways to push back evil, and many decide on fighting back the evil so good would be resulted in through this struggle, but there are some other ways as spreading good all over the place and that way gradually, by the grace of G-d evil will be replaced by good.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100448 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:01:47 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100448 I couldn't agree more, Elinor. It is still possible to set this world on a slightly different path, one that points to the possibility of peace. But to make it more than possible, we will have to find a way to come together, and to speak, as you say, with "one voice."This website is a good start in that direction. But much more will have to be done:1. Start spreading the word.2. Find a way to talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity.3. Get the ear of wealthy and powerful people who feel like leaving this earth a little better than they found it.4. Invest in projects which resonate with hope, which create jobs, and which protect the environment. What if you could make money, by creating jobs, which protect the environment? What a trip.5. Sell people on a Vision of Hope, and chuck all the BS which clouds our thinking.6. Sustain the hope with projects that give the hope a basis in reality, like empowering women.7. And when you have to, you fight. But you'll know what the hell you're fighting for. You're not fighting a "war against terror." You're fighting a war to win the peace, to realize a Vision of Hope on the ground.Elinor, a lot of good people have a lot of good ideas. Somehow, we have to find a way to give substance to these good ideas by creating realities on the ground which speak louder than words. We have the power to do that. Especially the power of the young people on this website, such as yourself, who sense that change is needed, and that it may just be possible as well. I couldn’t agree more, Elinor. It is still possible to set this world on a slightly different path, one that points to the possibility of peace. But to make it more than possible, we will have to find a way to come together, and to speak, as you say, with “one voice.”

This website is a good start in that direction. But much more will have to be done:

1. Start spreading the word.

2. Find a way to talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity.

3. Get the ear of wealthy and powerful people who feel like leaving this earth a little better than they found it.

4. Invest in projects which resonate with hope, which create jobs, and which protect the environment. What if you could make money, by creating jobs, which protect the environment? What a trip.

5. Sell people on a Vision of Hope, and chuck all the BS which clouds our thinking.

6. Sustain the hope with projects that give the hope a basis in reality, like empowering women.

7. And when you have to, you fight. But you’ll know what the hell you’re fighting for. You’re not fighting a “war against terror.” You’re fighting a war to win the peace, to realize a Vision of Hope on the ground.

Elinor, a lot of good people have a lot of good ideas. Somehow, we have to find a way to give substance to these good ideas by creating realities on the ground which speak louder than words. We have the power to do that. Especially the power of the young people on this website, such as yourself, who sense that change is needed, and that it may just be possible as well.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100437 Elinor (Iran) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:00:09 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100437 Nissim, I guess you looked into the same thing from another angle. Why I stress on Middle East is because I belong here, and there are too many issues in this little strategic region that load the atmosphere with more than it can bear. To make a difference we have to start from some where, so it is more convenient to look about and find the right ways and right tools and right people who would collaborate. Now as to indivituals, they cannot do any thing in particular if they do not have a voice, if wise people who would stress on non-violent methods are backed and elected by people, if constitutions of the regional countries support all those fundamental issues you were discussing, then we can assume things will move forward in the right direction and the course of eents will lead to the development of the region, our region as a constituent of this little globe. Nissim,
I guess you looked into the same thing from another angle. Why I stress on Middle East is because I belong here, and there are too many issues in this little strategic region that load the atmosphere with more than it can bear. To make a difference we have to start from some where, so it is more convenient to look about and find the right ways and right tools and right people who would collaborate. Now as to indivituals, they cannot do any thing in particular if they do not have a voice, if wise people who would stress on non-violent methods are backed and elected by people, if constitutions of the regional countries support all those fundamental issues you were discussing, then we can assume things will move forward in the right direction and the course of eents will lead to the development of the region, our region as a constituent of this little globe.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100433 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:47:32 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100433 Elinor, I think I can see where you're going with this. You envision a time when cooperation between the Middle Eastern countries will trump the tendency to fight and out-do one another.That same scenario may come about in the world as a whole, but most of the time it seems like a long shot.Througout recent history, countries have competed with one another for wealth and power. But there is a pattern emerging. Because of the expanding universe of knowledge, technology is brining the world together, and so too is the world coming together economically, at least in some areas. And yet, with all this "coming together," there are problems emerging which will require unprecedented amounts of global cooperation. Global Warming is an example. Technology and econonmics have created the problem. And only extreme levels of cooperation will solve it. Another example is the widening gap between the rich and the poor. As this gap widens, the pressure is on to find a way to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future, for the sake of peace.The people of the world are therefore poised to make a momentous decision. Are we going to find a way to come together- technologically, economically, and ideologically- in order to solve some of these big-ass problems? Or are we going to allow our out of control technologies, our unjust economies, and our off the wall ideologies, to be turned against us in war.This is the real issue of our time. We have progressed to the point where critical decisions have to be made which will ultimately define our destiny as a species. What our generation does in this regard will very much determine our collective fate. Elinor, I think I can see where you’re going with this. You envision a time when cooperation between the Middle Eastern countries will trump the tendency to fight and out-do one another.

That same scenario may come about in the world as a whole, but most of the time it seems like a long shot.

Througout recent history, countries have competed with one another for wealth and power. But there is a pattern emerging. Because of the expanding universe of knowledge, technology is brining the world together, and so too is the world coming together economically, at least in some areas. And yet, with all this “coming together,” there are problems emerging which will require unprecedented amounts of global cooperation. Global Warming is an example. Technology and econonmics have created the problem. And only extreme levels of cooperation will solve it. Another example is the widening gap between the rich and the poor. As this gap widens, the pressure is on to find a way to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future, for the sake of peace.

The people of the world are therefore poised to make a momentous decision. Are we going to find a way to come together- technologically, economically, and ideologically- in order to solve some of these big-ass problems? Or are we going to allow our out of control technologies, our unjust economies, and our off the wall ideologies, to be turned against us in war.

This is the real issue of our time. We have progressed to the point where critical decisions have to be made which will ultimately define our destiny as a species. What our generation does in this regard will very much determine our collective fate.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100280 Elinor (Iran) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:35:08 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100280 Brian, defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our " willingness to fight". Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world. I don't call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface. So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story. There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa'di from Shiraz. It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa'di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa'di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says," Wait, he will learn his lessons." The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa'di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons. You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else. extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation). We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don't worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn't meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining. As to myself, I feel for all people of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce). Brian,
defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our ” willingness to fight”. Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world.
I don’t call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface.
So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story.
There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa’di from Shiraz.
It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa’di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa’di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says,” Wait, he will learn his lessons.”
The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa’di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons.
You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else.
extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation).
We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don’t worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn’t meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining.
As to myself, I feel for all people of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce).

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100279 Elinor (Iran) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:34:52 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100279 Brian, defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our " willingness to fight". Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world. I don't call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface. So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story. There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa'di from Shiraz. It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa'di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa'di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says," Wait, he will learn his lessons." The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa'di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons. You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else. extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation). We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don't worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn't meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining. As to myself, I feel for all peoiple of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce). Brian,
defence is honorable, yes we need to learn to fight in order to restrain our ” willingness to fight”. Maybe this willingness will go too far, as to victimize too many innocent lives which has a more severe backlash in store and then it delievers much more willingness to fight vs another pack of too much willingness to fight, and this will be the ongoing process of cause and effect untill the last day of living on our little village of world.
I don’t call religons ignorant, I do find some approaches to religions backward. i tend to respect all religions and beliefs and I hope people who are affiliated to different religons and differnt schools of thought share the beautiful aspects of theri religon as to bring peace and harmony to the surface.
So you were talking about boots and kisses and kicks and things likewise, it reminded me of a story.
There is this famous poet and travelller from centuries back, well an Iranian one. People who are more exposed to Persian writings and peorty know him more, Sa’di from Shiraz.
It is said that a little guvenile comes beside Sa’di and insults him ( perhaps pinches him or so), then Sa’di gives him a date. Friends get annoyed and say, this little guy is disrespecting you and you are giving him a date? What the hell you are doing? he says,” Wait, he will learn his lessons.”
The guvenile thought he did some thing good, because he was rewarded, he thought if pinching Sa’di would get me a date, then pinching the king will make me a wealthy man! He does the same thing to the king and the king punishes the guy seriously. See this is a strategy, why one would need to kiss and kick, you give them dates and they learn their lessons.
You get what you give, you need willing to fight, you fight and you fight, you focus of living, surviving, you survive, you live despite all the denying fact. You give peace and harmony a susbtantial role in the scenario you write , then peace and harmony will be on the stage more than any thing else.
extremism arises in a society where eguity is not preserved. Society swings back into normal, extremism fades away for a good period of time ( like viruses, you fight them you make them more, you prevent their cultivation).
We will have a unified Middle East. We will have our independant but inter-related neatly woven harmonious Middle East, Brian, Europe will lag behind with an open mouth when Middle East comes to that point( she can compete don’t worry). Some times wars serve as introductions to peace, a long term peace, in a way that contradicting foreign interests wouldn’t meddle in the persistance and the duration and the quality of Middle Eastern bliss. Instead, foreing interests are treated in a wise manner, in a way all countries could have interactions and benefit, and we will benefit as well, without we fighting each other for their benefits, or they fighting on one side against the other and no one knows who exactly is gaining.
As to myself, I feel for all peoiple of my region, I cannot define exactly how far my Mid east has stretches its beautiful body, it is all mine , and I belong to her. From Israel to Pakistan , from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, from Persian deserts to the beautiful emirates in the southers waters( Persian and Arab what is the differnce).

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100082 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:06:17 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100082 Brian, I agree with you that the willingness to fight has its place. But actually, in the challenge we now face, the willingness to fight is only a small part of what is needed to win.People say to me that in World War II we fought Germany and Japan, and only after winning we invested via the Marshall Plan, to help create vibrant economies and democracies there. Why not do the same here; fight first, and then invest?The difference is that World War II was in large part about territory. Once you defeated the enemy, and controlled his territory, you could go ahead and impose your will. To the victor goes the spoils.This is a different situation. The ideological extremists are to be found in every nook and cranny around the world. This is not about territory. This is a war of ideas. This is about winning hearts and minds. And in that contest, we have no choice but to know our enemy, and to beat him at his own game; to do what he does, only better.If the enemy is ideological about Jihad, we will be ideolgical about Common Sense. If the enemy invests peanuts in social welfare programs, we will invest in jobs. If the enemy sells a vision of hope for Paradise, we will sell a Vision of Hope for Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom. And if the enemy wants a fight, we will fight, and we will fight hard, but we will position the fight within a Vision of Hope. We will raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose.At every turn we will cut the enemy off at the pass, by doing what he does, only better. That way, we will win the most important battle of all. We will win the battle for hearts and minds. We will marginalize the extremists, wherever they may be found, in the minds of their own people. <strong>The extremists will not be able to capture the public's imagination, once people begin to imagine a better life for themselves.</strong>So Brian, yes, you have to be willing to fight. But fight with all your weapons. If the West is good at anything, it is making and investing money. Why not to use this strength as part of our strategic arsenal to win the fight that lies ahead. And when we have to fight on the ground we will, but we will position the fight within a Vision of Hope.Does any of that make sense? Brian, I agree with you that the willingness to fight has its place. But actually, in the challenge we now face, the willingness to fight is only a small part of what is needed to win.

People say to me that in World War II we fought Germany and Japan, and only after winning we invested via the Marshall Plan, to help create vibrant economies and democracies there. Why not do the same here; fight first, and then invest?

The difference is that World War II was in large part about territory. Once you defeated the enemy, and controlled his territory, you could go ahead and impose your will. To the victor goes the spoils.

This is a different situation. The ideological extremists are to be found in every nook and cranny around the world. This is not about territory. This is a war of ideas. This is about winning hearts and minds. And in that contest, we have no choice but to know our enemy, and to beat him at his own game; to do what he does, only better.

If the enemy is ideological about Jihad, we will be ideolgical about Common Sense. If the enemy invests peanuts in social welfare programs, we will invest in jobs. If the enemy sells a vision of hope for Paradise, we will sell a Vision of Hope for Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom. And if the enemy wants a fight, we will fight, and we will fight hard, but we will position the fight within a Vision of Hope. We will raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose.

At every turn we will cut the enemy off at the pass, by doing what he does, only better. That way, we will win the most important battle of all. We will win the battle for hearts and minds. We will marginalize the extremists, wherever they may be found, in the minds of their own people. The extremists will not be able to capture the public’s imagination, once people begin to imagine a better life for themselves.

So Brian, yes, you have to be willing to fight. But fight with all your weapons. If the West is good at anything, it is making and investing money. Why not to use this strength as part of our strategic arsenal to win the fight that lies ahead. And when we have to fight on the ground we will, but we will position the fight within a Vision of Hope.

Does any of that make sense?

]]> By: Brian Hhttp://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100066 Brian H Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:52:18 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100066 It is a common assertion that force and war solve nothing, that violence and evil cannot be defeated by guns.Bullshit.War defeated: Imperial Germany (WWI), Hitler, Imperial Japan, Milosevic, and Saddam. And the willingness to fight stopped the USSR from overrunning Europe after WWII, and elsewhere, later. Failure to maintain that willingness handed South Vietnam to the brutal Hanoi regime, and allowed Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge to murder millions. Israel defeated huge (but incompetent) Arab armies to stay alive. Unwillingness to fight may yet drown Europe in Islamic Ignorance.If you won't fight for what you have, be ready to kiss the boots of the next guys with guns who happen to want it. It is a common assertion that force and war solve nothing, that violence and evil cannot be defeated by guns.

Bullshit.

War defeated: Imperial Germany (WWI), Hitler, Imperial Japan, Milosevic, and Saddam. And the willingness to fight stopped the USSR from overrunning Europe after WWII, and elsewhere, later. Failure to maintain that willingness handed South Vietnam to the brutal Hanoi regime, and allowed Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge to murder millions. Israel defeated huge (but incompetent) Arab armies to stay alive. Unwillingness to fight may yet drown Europe in Islamic Ignorance.

If you won’t fight for what you have, be ready to kiss the boots of the next guys with guns who happen to want it.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100054 Elinor (Iran) Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:20:28 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100054 Nissim, Ty Ty, Amen ve Amen :) Nissim,
Ty Ty, Amen ve Amen :)

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100042 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:58:04 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-100042 Good luck with your exams Elinor. We need you to be as smart as possible if you are to change the world.Nissim Good luck with your exams Elinor. We need you to be as smart as possible if you are to change the world.

Nissim

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99982 Elinor (Iran) Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:46:13 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99982 Nissim, Thank you :) I have checked the website, and will soon check it bit by bit :) after I am done with my exams and I will write here how did I find ot, take care. Nissim,
Thank you :)
I have checked the website, and will soon check it bit by bit :) after I am done with my exams and I will write here how did I find ot, take care.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99770 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:09:19 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99770 Yaman, think it over buddy. You walk down the street and see an old woman getting beat up by a young man, because she is not dressed properly. You decide to intervene, to protect her. The young man does not back down, and continues to beat the old woman. You can't help yourself. You punch his lights out to get him to stop.In this case, did "good ends justify bad means?" It isn't very nice to punch his lights out. Is it? But you felt compelled to do it, to protect the old woman. You did what you had to do, even resorted to violence, which we all abhor, to do what you felt was morally right.Yaman, God did not make this world a simple place. He clouded our lives with moral ambiguity, where the difference between good and evil is many times a fine line. Why did He do this? Why not make this a good and perfect place where right and wrong are clearly defined, and where people always opt for what's right?Because that's not the kind of world He chose to create. If He wanted to create a perfect place He could have created a world of rocks, like the moon. That place is perfect. But that's not what He wanted to do here. He created a clash between good and evil, and He has us struggling to sort out one from the other. His hope is that out of that struggle, something good will emerge, some sort of meaning that will confirm the efficacy of His creation.It's not like God has His mother telling Him who good he is. He depends on His creatures to confirm the possibility of perfection, and the goodness of creation. We have choices to make, and in making those choices we confer meaning to what otherwise would be a meaningless world.And Elinor, I am blessed to have you as a customer. Tchai, and Nargilla, and shesh besh, sound great. And maybe one day, those beautiful things will fill our day. But for now, we have a lot of work ahead of us. I don't want to put the emphasis on fighting, even though we will have to fight. But more importantly, we have to sell each other on a Vision of Hope. And then we have to implement, and to put on the ground an economic and ideological reality that speaks louder than words. And if you could partner with me on that, like you are doing here, it would make the impossible that much more possible. Yaman, think it over buddy. You walk down the street and see an old woman getting beat up by a young man, because she is not dressed properly. You decide to intervene, to protect her. The young man does not back down, and continues to beat the old woman. You can’t help yourself. You punch his lights out to get him to stop.

In this case, did “good ends justify bad means?” It isn’t very nice to punch his lights out. Is it? But you felt compelled to do it, to protect the old woman. You did what you had to do, even resorted to violence, which we all abhor, to do what you felt was morally right.

Yaman, God did not make this world a simple place. He clouded our lives with moral ambiguity, where the difference between good and evil is many times a fine line. Why did He do this? Why not make this a good and perfect place where right and wrong are clearly defined, and where people always opt for what’s right?

Because that’s not the kind of world He chose to create. If He wanted to create a perfect place He could have created a world of rocks, like the moon. That place is perfect. But that’s not what He wanted to do here. He created a clash between good and evil, and He has us struggling to sort out one from the other. His hope is that out of that struggle, something good will emerge, some sort of meaning that will confirm the efficacy of His creation.

It’s not like God has His mother telling Him who good he is. He depends on His creatures to confirm the possibility of perfection, and the goodness of creation. We have choices to make, and in making those choices we confer meaning to what otherwise would be a meaningless world.

And Elinor, I am blessed to have you as a customer. Tchai, and Nargilla, and shesh besh, sound great. And maybe one day, those beautiful things will fill our day. But for now, we have a lot of work ahead of us. I don’t want to put the emphasis on fighting, even though we will have to fight. But more importantly, we have to sell each other on a Vision of Hope. And then we have to implement, and to put on the ground an economic and ideological reality that speaks louder than words. And if you could partner with me on that, like you are doing here, it would make the impossible that much more possible.

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99762 Elinor (Iran) Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:23:26 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99762 Nissim, Thank you for your kind word, I already buy the hope you vision you sell, how much a kilo? :) I really don't want to fight, not me, as much as possible and to the point it is possible, i rather sit down drink Tchai and smoke Nargilla, play shesh besh :) Nissim,
Thank you for your kind word, I already buy the hope you vision you sell, how much a kilo? :)
I really don’t want to fight, not me, as much as possible and to the point it is possible, i rather sit down drink Tchai and smoke Nargilla, play shesh besh :)

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99761 Elinor (Iran) Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:19:18 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99761 Yaman if the words are to bring peace why not? what else can we do? how else can we communicate? We are rather demanded not to have any kind of relationship at all. My sprotsmen are demanded not to play with their counterparts from his country, and this is not fair, we do not approve this, this is not going to being hope to our region. We need different people making decisions for us, or we need to decide for ourselves, at least as much as we are partially satisfied. Yaman, now what do you suggest? Now you bring up a plan, less words more action. You suggest some thing (possible of course), that could contribute to all what we share here as a common goal, common vision. Some thing that will bring us together, some thing can make us feel we all belong to the same region with all its ups and downs, sooner or later a generation is going to be too aged to keep the reins and then the younger generation is going to come up , more or less. Are we going to make the same mistakes? Are we going to be a copy cat? Do we have any thing in store as to say we differ from the previous generation who did what they did in our gem of Middle East.. Yaman if the words are to bring peace why not? what else can we do? how else can we communicate? We are rather demanded not to have any kind of relationship at all. My sprotsmen are demanded not to play with their counterparts from his country, and this is not fair, we do not approve this, this is not going to being hope to our region. We need different people making decisions for us, or we need to decide for ourselves, at least as much as we are partially satisfied. Yaman, now what do you suggest? Now you bring up a plan, less words more action. You suggest some thing (possible of course), that could contribute to all what we share here as a common goal, common vision. Some thing that will bring us together, some thing can make us feel we all belong to the same region with all its ups and downs, sooner or later a generation is going to be too aged to keep the reins and then the younger generation is going to come up , more or less. Are we going to make the same mistakes? Are we going to be a copy cat? Do we have any thing in store as to say we differ from the previous generation who did what they did in our gem of Middle East..

]]> By: yamanhttp://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99669 yaman Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:17:43 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99669 Nissim, you have a penchant for using a lot of words to say nothing. It is nothing but nonsense to believe that good ends justify bad means. Nissim, you have a penchant for using a lot of words to say nothing. It is nothing but nonsense to believe that good ends justify bad means.

]]> By: Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99585 Nissim Dahan (Israel/USA) Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:21:25 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99585 Yaman, yes, sometimes we are called upon to engage in evil, for the greater good. I wish it weren't like that. I wish that a good heart would hold sway over those who would do it harm. But the world is too filled with evil, and in order to confront it, we may have to do what we prefer not to do.I'll give you an example. I believe in Selling a Vision of Hope. I believe that it's time to chuck the BS and begin to believe in what makes sense. I believe in investing in one another. I believe that common sense and investment can be used to sell people on a Vision of Hope. I believe in sustaining the hope with public diplomacy.I believe in all that, but in the final analysis, I also believe that we will have no choice but to fight. But we will fight within a Vision of Hope- by raising the fight on the gound to a higher moral plain and by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose. I don't like fighting. But I know that in this world, there will be no choice. I just hope that our intention to sell a Vision of Hope will confer some justice to the fight, in God's eyes.And Elinor, I admire your idealism. No, I don't think reform can be imposed from outside, or with guns. Reform will come from people like yourself, who see the truth, and who are willing to give expression to that truth. Ultimately, the will of the people will not be deterred. We just have to figure out, you and I, how to spread the word, and how to implement the vision we come to share.I think it's possible, Elinor. God tried to make things fair. He gave us one thing to bring order to this world, our common sense. He is standing back and saying, "Use your common sense, and enjoy the bounty of my creation. Deviate from what makes sense, and it's your baby. And everything you know and love hangs in the balance." Yaman, yes, sometimes we are called upon to engage in evil, for the greater good. I wish it weren’t like that. I wish that a good heart would hold sway over those who would do it harm. But the world is too filled with evil, and in order to confront it, we may have to do what we prefer not to do.

I’ll give you an example. I believe in Selling a Vision of Hope. I believe that it’s time to chuck the BS and begin to believe in what makes sense. I believe in investing in one another. I believe that common sense and investment can be used to sell people on a Vision of Hope. I believe in sustaining the hope with public diplomacy.

I believe in all that, but in the final analysis, I also believe that we will have no choice but to fight. But we will fight within a Vision of Hope- by raising the fight on the gound to a higher moral plain and by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose. I don’t like fighting. But I know that in this world, there will be no choice. I just hope that our intention to sell a Vision of Hope will confer some justice to the fight, in God’s eyes.

And Elinor, I admire your idealism. No, I don’t think reform can be imposed from outside, or with guns. Reform will come from people like yourself, who see the truth, and who are willing to give expression to that truth. Ultimately, the will of the people will not be deterred. We just have to figure out, you and I, how to spread the word, and how to implement the vision we come to share.

I think it’s possible, Elinor. God tried to make things fair. He gave us one thing to bring order to this world, our common sense. He is standing back and saying, “Use your common sense, and enjoy the bounty of my creation. Deviate from what makes sense, and it’s your baby. And everything you know and love hangs in the balance.”

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99533 Elinor (Iran) Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:37:47 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99533 Nissim, I am really looking forward to finding a way we can stop brutality. Nissim we are some random selection of people living in this Middle East. There should be ways that we can make a difference, I am as disgusted about the terror as you are , as many other people in the Middle East who await the elections and hope each election would make it much better, each time people go to vote they think ok this time their representative is going to really represent them... Do you want to be in war ? In a conflict? Do you hate your nreighbor? Do you wish ill for the kids of people whom you don';t know ? No of course not, but we have wars, conflicts demonstrations, burning of flags, assassinations, riots, we have too many things going on which we really do not identify ourselves with them. This is sickening, this is liek a cancer , a big tumor in the weak body of our societies. What should be done...? Do you think other countries from far far away lands could come and bring us order ? with their numerous warships and bombers ? Do you think our people will even trust them even if we imagine they are totally earnest? Why can't we do it ourselves, why ? What is wrong with us? These are few of the many questions that eat up my mind, and i still perhaps naively believe we are capable of making a change and making it better for our children and the generations that come after, when we are gone.. Nissim,
I am really looking forward to finding a way we can stop brutality. Nissim we are some random selection of people living in this Middle East. There should be ways that we can make a difference, I am as disgusted about the terror as you are , as many other people in the Middle East who await the elections and hope each election would make it much better, each time people go to vote they think ok this time their representative is going to really represent them…
Do you want to be in war ? In a conflict? Do you hate your nreighbor? Do you wish ill for the kids of people whom you don’;t know ? No of course not, but we have wars, conflicts demonstrations, burning of flags, assassinations, riots, we have too many things going on which we really do not identify ourselves with them. This is sickening, this is liek a cancer , a big tumor in the weak body of our societies. What should be done…? Do you think other countries from far far away lands could come and bring us order ? with their numerous warships and bombers ? Do you think our people will even trust them even if we imagine they are totally earnest? Why can’t we do it ourselves, why ? What is wrong with us? These are few of the many questions that eat up my mind, and i still perhaps naively believe we are capable of making a change and making it better for our children and the generations that come after, when we are gone..

]]> By: Elinor (Iran)http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99531 Elinor (Iran) Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:26:40 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99531 Yaman that could be a mere accusation as well, do you think I believe in all the documents that load all the empty space of internet? Don't you think its quite simple to make some one as cheap as a penny if one has got to look cheap? It also could be true, but the fact that we read things on internet and that we see some more things on TV doesn't make us aware of facts, we could rather be far from knowing the facts.I just know you and me, we are no saints so we deserve that people rule us who are no saints as well, the difference would be: they will have more poer and that's scary. DO you believe in yourself becoming a prime minister and acting as a saint? perhaps you wish so , but later on when you become a president and then you do one thing wrong and then you want to cover that some thing else happens and in a haste you have to handle some thing which harms some one and in consequence you will hurt some one you don't mean to.... I mean the whole thing is very confusing and you wouldn't even wish to hold power, because it is as burning as fire. I don't want to judge any one, I even salute the authorities who are less evil, and that is because i want to be less evil, at least i know that about myself. Benazir was killed very brutally, like many other people in Pakistan, I don't know if she was good or bad, she was good for her country or she wasn't, she was there to persuade people as to vote for her, if she wasn't good for the country it was enough not to elect her, not to kill her like that... Right we are not Pakistanis and we don't know enough, but i am sure people of Pakistan denounce this brutality...it all comes from ignorance...ignorance of people who hold the mortar in their dirty hands ( I wish they were trying to tend to the gardens at least). Yaman that could be a mere accusation as well, do you think I believe in all the documents that load all the empty space of internet? Don’t you think its quite simple to make some one as cheap as a penny if one has got to look cheap? It also could be true, but the fact that we read things on internet and that we see some more things on TV doesn’t make us aware of facts, we could rather be far from knowing the facts.

I just know you and me, we are no saints so we deserve that people rule us who are no saints as well, the difference would be: they will have more poer and that’s scary. DO you believe in yourself becoming a prime minister and acting as a saint? perhaps you wish so , but later on when you become a president and then you do one thing wrong and then you want to cover that some thing else happens and in a haste you have to handle some thing which harms some one and in consequence you will hurt some one you don’t mean to…. I mean the whole thing is very confusing and you wouldn’t even wish to hold power, because it is as burning as fire.
I don’t want to judge any one, I even salute the authorities who are less evil, and that is because i want to be less evil, at least i know that about myself.
Benazir was killed very brutally, like many other people in Pakistan, I don’t know if she was good or bad, she was good for her country or she wasn’t, she was there to persuade people as to vote for her, if she wasn’t good for the country it was enough not to elect her, not to kill her like that…
Right we are not Pakistanis and we don’t know enough, but i am sure people of Pakistan denounce this brutality…it all comes from ignorance…ignorance of people who hold the mortar in their dirty hands ( I wish they were trying to tend to the gardens at least).

]]> By: yamanhttp://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99522 yaman Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:59:14 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/12/29/are-clean-hands-possible-in-a-world-so-filled-with-dirt/#comment-99522 "It is not enough to know that your hands are clean. It is sometimes necessary to get them dirty for the sake of the greater good."This might make sense if you are tending your garden, planting your crops, or building a house. But what you are saying, behind all the misleading metaphors about game-play and gardening, is this:"You must do what is ethically wrong in order to pursue the ethically good."That seems unethical, to me. That aside, I fail to see how killing your brother and <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html" rel="nofollow">accepting $15 million in bribes</a>, among other things, is simply "playing the game" for "the greater good." Or maybe that is what you meant.We don't have to forgive her for what she did in order to condemn her murder. “It is not enough to know that your hands are clean. It is sometimes necessary to get them dirty for the sake of the greater good.”

This might make sense if you are tending your garden, planting your crops, or building a house. But what you are saying, behind all the misleading metaphors about game-play and gardening, is this:

“You must do what is ethically wrong in order to pursue the ethically good.”

That seems unethical, to me. That aside, I fail to see how killing your brother and accepting $15 million in bribes, among other things, is simply “playing the game” for “the greater good.” Or maybe that is what you meant.

We don’t have to forgive her for what she did in order to condemn her murder.

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