Feedback is always one way and it reflects the impact of what is written on the person…

So, try not to take it personal

I wasn’t expecting much from Vogue of course, but Time highlighting it is what irked me.

Saudi have to wear icky black gowns.

Last I heard Saudi women were suing Batman claiming that his costume was a serious copyright violation.

… Not really.

In any case, just because they have to wear that doesn’t mean the entire world has to look down on and pity them. It makes a lot of hard-working, intelligent Saudi women sick to be repeatedly treated like this.

you are saying most people in the Muslim world would still choose religious rule over democratic rule.

Be aware of the many hypocrisies involved in certain Muslim people claiming to want democracy. It is alarming. A perfect case is Kareem’s, lots of Muslim activists and supposed advocates for “free speech” refused to support him and in fact justified his imprisonment, simply because they were “offended” by his posts. Many people who want democracy here barely understand what it means, all they want is political freedom, but they would have no idea what to do with it, it seems. Not if they justify people like Kareem being imprisoned. I am against religion dominating people’s lives when they lead to illogical situations such as this. Everyone wants freedom for themselves, but many refuse to understand that real democracy means feelings will get hurt all the time, ideologies will be questioned, people will be criticized. And what are they going to do? Burn tires in violent rallies and threaten others with death every time someone writes a blog post or article criticizing their political or religious beliefs? It drives me nuts. I want to see more Muslims fight for minority religions, and those being violently persecuted in our societies, before they run around claiming to want democracy. I dislike it very much when Muslims pout about discrimination and Arab-Muslims racism when we ourselves discriminate and are racist against so many minorities in our own cultures. Who are we fooling? Anyways, this is besides the point. But I felt like mentioning it here to prove how hypocritical and self-important many people are. I’m sure this applies to people other than Muslims, but our experiences are somewhat worse and more frequent than in other societies (at least that I’m aware of.)

I admire anyone who is in that situation and who is still able to steadfastly hold onto their ideals and principles.

It is very hard, my heart goes out to the thousands of people who as we speak are being tortured in prison simply for holding and expressing certain opinions. For as long as such people are being imprisoned, and whose imprisonment is being justified and uncared for by the masses, we can’t possibly function properly under any democracy. Not until people learn to fight these grave injustices, regardless of political and religious stances.

I’m saying is that I don’t believe that the seperation of church and state should be an ideal “impossible” for Muslims to accept, because it may be the only viable solution.

I don’t see this happening without the extremist elements in our societies rising violently. Right now, simply too many people oppose this idea, and something like this can result in major political and social instabilities. There are many steps to take before putting this sort of thing into action, don’t you think so Jessica?

I think it comes down to the extent of the interplay between religion and politics. I still vote with my morals and religious principles in mind, but I live in a democratic system where if I am in the minority on such issues I ‘lose.’ This is the choice one would have to make, and from what I understand of your comment, you are saying most people in the Muslim world would still choose religious rule over democratic rule.

I think many Christians, too, used to feel that seperation of church and state was a sin – look at the Catholic/Protestant issues in Ireland, the Church of England, ect. However, society (and religion’s reaction to society) was able to evolve and still keep religion as founding principles for democracy. In fact, many Catholics would credit Catholicism with the ideal of seperation of church and state…although that’s debatable, in my opinion.

I understand that there are many people who are persecuted in the Muslim world for purporting these ideals, as there were many people jailed/killed for making this same argument back in the time of Queen Elizabeth and Mary, Queen of Scots. Unfortunately, it’s often persecution that moves change, so it’s a necessary evil. I admire anyone who is in that situation and who is still able to steadfastly hold onto their ideals and principles.

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t believe that the seperation of church and state should be an ideal “impossible” for Muslims to accept, because it may be the only viable solution. If it is right now impossible to accept, then I would say that there needs to be an evolution of understanding what is acceptable or not.

Of course, this is easy for me to say because I am not Muslim and I would not be persecuted for stating this opinion in my country.

Since no religion can remain perfect or “ideal” once put in the hands of sinful humans, isn’t this actually an argument for the seperation of Church and State?

This is impossible for many Muslims to accept, the Quran is supposed to act as our constitution. While many Muslims understand and dislike the consequences of that, more would pick this religion over human rights (and let’s face it, “ideal” Islam is rarely being practiced in any of the Muslim countries right now, where censorship and crimes are rampant.) If this wasn’t the case, we would have crawled out of these struggles a long time ago.

For a lot of people, just the idea of separating religion from politics is a sin. Remember, there are many people suffering in prison all over the Muslim world simply for putting these discussions on the table.

sorry about that!

However, in reading the comments for this article, I found myself questioning what exactly the MEY readers feel is the solution here.

I often hear (or read) that “ideal” Islam is not being practiced in any current Muslim countries, but if it were, all human rights would be respected (or at least to a larger degree then they are now). This leads me to 2 points:

1. Who agrees on what is “ideal?” Which religious scholars, and which sects? If we are talking about a democratic system, then you immediately run the risk of fairly electing extremists who will not support or protect human rights….but who are still implementing their idea of a “perfect” religion. (Please note, this is not a comment simply on Muslim countries – as a Christian living in the US, I would put President George W. Bush in this same category….I don’t think he has made many “Christian-like” decisions in office, but I do believe he is convinced he has.)

2. Since no religion can remain perfect or “ideal” once put in the hands of sinful humans, isn’t this actually an argument for the seperation of Church and State? Most of the world’s countries which “best” defend human rights (and I put “best” in quotes because certainly every country has significant room to progress) do practice the seperation of church and state.

Therefore, it seems unproductive to me for a society to strive to implement a more “perfect” religious ideal when often people don’t agree on what is “ideal;” and that history has clearly taught us that countries who seperate religion and the state are the best defenders of human rights.

Well, Dear Saudimedic.
If you read what I wrote carefully you would understand that what I ask for is not to use Saudi Arabia in every sentence that degrades women.

I am only reminding everyone the fact that women were marginalized in most societies, but the rest of the world is ahead of us. Women in the past had the same problems we are having in Saudi Arabia today. We are taking progressive steps.. I am proud to say, although we Saudi women started much later.
As I mentioned in the article, Girls schools were only open in the 1960s!! that is not too long ago. Even then many parents didn’t allow their girls to attend! Now, almost 50 years later, we have Saudi women teachers,doctors, researchers, nurses, businesswomen and even lawyers.. There is still so much lacking before women reach an independence and the rights they seek.. but we are moving towards that..

Your description of how women were treated in the West is very close to the way Saudi treats women today. Blacks in America were given the right to vote long before women.

I find whenever someone says a bad word about Saudi Arabia, instead of dealing with the issue, you point a finger back at the USA instead of facing the problem head on.

It reminds me of little children. “MoM said you ate to many cookies” Johnny repliied “but mikey ate more than me” same mentality everytime Saudi shown in a bad light.

Or at the very least, the equal status does not translate into equal respect.

Unfortunately true, but if Islam was being correctly applied, it wouldn’t really be this way.

Are you referring to the “ideal” Islam or Islam as it is currently practiced? Actions speak louder than words; based on the position and accepted treatment of women within certain Muslim societies, it would appear that women are, indeed, considered lesser beings. Or at the very least, the equal status does not translate into equal respect.

By saying this ain’t Saudi Arabia, I don’t think she cares about what rights women have in Saudi Arabia(or in North America for that matter,) just how unglamourously she thinks they dress over there. I could go into all the levels of how her statement makes no sense whatsover, but I wouldn’t think about it too hard-she obviously didn’t.