Where is the Honor in Honor Killing?
Every once in a while we hear of an “honor killing” carried out by a family member against one of their own. Kawthar’s article about an Iranian father who stoned his daughter to death, for bringing “dishonor” to him and to his family, is a case in point. The girl may, or may not, have consorted with a man without the father’s approval, but he took it upon himself to restore his “honor” in the cruelest way possible, by taking the life of his own flesh and blood.
How is it that people come to believe in such things? And the Muslim world is not the only place where such thinking abounds. You could be riding a subway or a bus in a modern American city, and you make the mistake of looking at a young man in the wrong way. He pulls out a gun and shoots you in the head for “disrespecting” him, simply by looking at him in a way that, in his mind, demeaned his sense of “honor.”
A lot of times you see this kind of thinking among the poor and among the uneducated, but not always. If you are poor and uneducated, and if the weight of a hard life weighs heavily down upon you, then you man find yourself grasping at straws trying to reclaim a sense of honor and a sense of dignity. When you have nothing in your life that gives you dignity, or respect, you may end up looking for it in the strangest places: by stoning your daughter, or by shooting a fellow traveler for looking at you the wrong way.
What can I say? We have come to believe in a lot of stupid things. Why? Because many of us have no other reference point, and because sometimes it’s just easier to accept what we are told is right, instead of thinking it out for ourselves. But if we think things out before acting out, we may think twice about acting out in the wrong way, and against our own best interest.
Common sense would suggest that there is no honor in killing. Honor is not bestowed on us as a matter of right, but is earned by each of us with the good things we do for one another. We are not entitled to honor. We earn it as we go. Common sense would also suggest that we were put on this good earth to live; not to kill, and not to die, before our time.
But poverty and ignorance do play a part, as many of you rightly point out. They make it more possible for stupid thinking to grab hold. If a father, for example, has a decent job, and a decent education, and is able to provide adequately for his family, then chances are good that he will find his sense of honor in the good things he has, and does, without resorting to the perverse notion of “honor killing,” as a source of honor. If his daughter goes astray, he will find the strength, within himself, to set her straight with love and understanding, because his life gives him the self-respect he needs to respect others. But if that same father is left poor, and ignorant, he will find it difficult to respect others, even his own family, when he has no respect for himself.
People the world over will have to begin rethinking some of their deeply held beliefs, so that a semblance of order has a chance to emerge. We will need a new framework for rational thought based on universal notions of common sense—the collective wisdom borne of shared experience. We will also need to invest in one another, as many of you so rightly point out, so that the moderating influence of education and prosperity could begin to neutralize the influence of extremist thinking. Ideology plus Investment equals Hope, and with hope, all things are possible, even the kindness that we owe it to ourselves, to show one another.
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Nissim,
It is always inspiring and instructional, reading your posts. What I meant by the role of ecconomy is that the messages of upgraded quality and validity reach the civilians living in bigger cities, richer provinces, the poorer would hear the whispers of Al-Qaeda much easier and much sooner. The places that government does not invest, others invest, and they pick the fruits of their demand from the deserted fertility of the land of their needs…
I agree with you Elinor. Poverty is a good breeding ground for extremism. Like you say, if government or business does not invest, others will: in midrasas, in health clinics, in food distribution, etc. The trouble is that there is a high price to pay for such charity; the extremism that in the long run keeps the people down.
If a poor man looks at the table and sees only an ideology of hate, and some charitable dollars, then that’s what he’s going to buy into, because that’s all there is. But if he looks at the table and sees an ideology that makes more sense, and a job, then now there is a choice, and 90% will choose a life, and will fight those who would take that life away.
The West is well advised to put that alternative on the table. If the West is good at anything it is making and investing money. Why not use that strength to promote the peace and to win the war against ideological extremism?
Well, I think it’s mostly about a lack of education, which is nearly the same as the poverty you mentioned, Nissim. But I strongly disagree with your role for the West! It may help, yes, but real change comes from the inside, not the outside. As long as people rather bare their dictators, which spend money on luxury, but not on education, than to fight for change, nothing will happen. The West can’t help people which don’t even understand what’s their problem - they have to want the help before they get it. Pointing on others changes nothing.
Fyi: Here’s another very interesting article related to the topic, on stoning.
Simon, a certain system is in place, and it will stay that way if nothing else gives. Change does have to come from within, as you suggest, but sometimes there has to be a stimulus, something to empower people on the inside to do what they must.
Dictators have their agenda, and their reasons from keeping things as they are. Extremists have their ageenda, as well. But what about the people? Do they have to do everything on their own, and to bear all the risk themselves?
The West is not an innocent partner in all of this. The West has paid off the dictators, to fuel its economies. The dictators have paid off the extremists in a bid to hold on to power. And the people have had to pay the price. They suffer quietly in the shadows.
Everyone, including the West, realizes that the system in place, as presently consituted, will not hold. Something has to give. The West owes it to the people, and to itself, to begin investing in good paying jobs, and in projects which will protect the environment. The people will respond with hope, and will take the risk of effectuating change.
We can’t just sit and watch ourselves disintegrate before our eyes. We can’t satify ourselves by simply judging others. We must take it upon ourselves to bring about change, and thereby bring to ourselves a freshness of spirit, the the possibility of peace, and a more sustainable environment.
Nissim,
Baluchistan doesn’t need charity, it needs investments, if government approves of it, it pays back, it will create jobs and security for the locals and it will improve the region as well. There are many plans never permitted to be executed. For example, the late Dr. Farzad, an Iranian honorable scientist in the field od engineering set forward a plan that was connecting out Northern Caspain sea to the warm waters of Oman sea in the South. He calculated the hole project very minutely, when? some 15 years before the revolution his plan was published as a book. He argued that Russia did the same with its volga river and now it connects the Caspian to the free waters. The income of traffic alone would make the region rich, independent from the oil and its sales. He said this would also have an effect on the climate of the deserts and the arid lands in between. It would change many things for many people. Some countries offered investment through some conditions. Iran never took it seriously, although the plan seemed attractive. That would seriously change the life of people of Baluchistan for good. Anyway this professor passed away some years back. He had some hoped for the plan even after the revolution, but the never came true… G-d bless his soul.
Simon, how would the lack of education be mended? investment …
Shooting someone on public transit in cold blood isn’t a dishonor killing. . .it’s murder. And murders have occurred throughout time, across cultures.
Dishonor killings are, by definition, intrafamilial and have entirely different origins, motives, modus operandi, triggers, and means of prevention.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
“Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”
The sad reality about “honour” killings is that they cut across social lines. It’s not uncommon to hear of murders within highly educated families, such as the case of Samia Sarwar, who was murdered for seeking a divorce from her abusive husband.
As long as women are viewed as property, and a family’s sense of honour revolves around the sexual purity of its family members, “honour” killings will continue to plague our societies
“Honor Killing” is the sign of a backward Moslem societies where force and the gun is the master. It has nothing to do with poverty or education, just a society’s customs.
Money has been rolling into the Middle East for at least 80 years with no sign of change while Israel, starting with nothing, has become a modern State.
@ Elinor:
Yes, investment. Not help! Investment means: Giving money in exchange for some expected output.
I’m quite unhappy with Western countries giving their money to Oriental dictators - that’s something I really would like to be changed. But change can only come from the inside. The West’s role is to empower democratic movements. But look: In most Arabic countries, the dictator’s only powerful rivals are Islamists. And to those, the West wont give any money. That’s why I’m saying that people must stop to bare their dictators before the West can help. They have to stand up for democratic values before the West will empower them.
And to respond to emanuel (yes, I know, “don’t feed the trolls”…):
Israel started with plenty of money, support from all Western countries and, most important, an educated population, which was, from on the beginning, used to democratic values. That’s a real difference.
Ms. Sheeley, it is an honor to have an expert of your stature weigh in on the discussion.
I take note of the profound difference between an honor killing and a killing on the subway, based on a criminal’s sense that he has been “disrespected.” But I made the comparison for a reason.
You suggest that the subway situation is murder, perhaps implying that honor killing is not. I think they are both murder. Honor killing is the intentional taking of a life with malice aforethought. Such intentional motivation contains within in the elements of murder.
I also sense that there is a similar motivation, even though there are profound differences as well, as you suggest. To my mind, both culprits harbor an extreme and distorted expection of an “enetitlement to honor and respect.” The criminal on the subway has a distorted sense of himself, such that he feels he is disrespected even by the casual glance of a fellow passenger, and he feels, therefore, entitled or even compelled to take the life of another because he determines in his own mind that his worth has somehow been comprimised.
The father who attempts to restore his family’s honor by stoning his daughter to death is, in some ways, similarly motivated. He subscribes to the notion that he and his family are entitled to a certain measure of honor and respect. He feels entitled to measure that honor in terms of the sexual inclinations of his daughter, and to exact punishment with violence, even ignoring his religion’s laws against murder. There is a certain sense of arrogance there, not unlike the subway killer.
The comparison I am drawing can be summed up as “the arrogance of personal belief.” No matter who we are, and no matter how much we choose to believe the things we do, there is a point at which our beliefs no longer make sense in the face of the destructive things we choose to do in the name of our beliefs. We have no choice, in this dangerous world, but to pull back from some of our beliefs, when those beliefs compel us to do things, which are so evil, that they undermine the very basis of the beliefs in the first place.
People are quick to say that we are all entitled to our beliefs. I say no. We are only entitled to believe what makes sense. Anything short of that is playing God, without really knowing the rules of the game.
Kawthar, I agree with a lot of what you have to say. Treating women like property is at the core of a lot of the problems in the Middle East. Women can have a moderating influence in the face of ideological extremism, but if that influence is stifled, then the ideological craziness of the men will hold sway.
Also, even though sexual behavior does relate to the notion of honor, still, what does it say about our sense of honor when we are willing to take the life of another, simply because they fall in love with someone we don’t approve of? There has to be a sense of porportion in what we are willing to do in the name of our beliefs.
And Emanuel, with all due respect, everything has to do with poverty and education, even the notion of honor killing. The things people are willing to accept, as part of their religion, and as part of their custom, is highly influenced by their education and their economic well being.
Take Judaism, for example. That religion, like all others, has a lot of crazy ideas. For example, in Deuteronomy, if you marry a woman, and she turns out not to be a virgin, you’re supposed to kill her on her father’s doorstep. To the best of my knowledge, Jews, for the most part, have not done this. Why? Because they used their common sense to ignore such passages, even as they embraced others. And I have to believe that education and economics played a part in that sense of judgment.
And you’re right that money is pouring into the Middle East. The problem is, however, that the money is not being used to adequately educate the majority of the people and to help them obtain good paying jobs. If this were done in a concerted effort by the powers that be, then I think you’ll find that a lot of the ideological nonsense will fall by the wayside.
Simon,
Unfortunately, west tends to fund the groups who stand against what west disapproves and that way makes them strong and then he comes back to fight them when they are too strong to handle. Democracy needs a very strong frame within wich freedom is made possible, that frame cannot be shaped in the Eastern countries overnight. Democracy is a cultue that a group of people should come to the conclusion that they really have to fight for it. As you said, I am not also willing that each monarchy be dismantled. In case of Iran, it was a big failor, another groupof monarchs came by and this time they had turbins instead of studded trhones.
@ Elinor:
That’s really a big problem of Western foreign politics. But I hope that we can get rid of this cold war mentality with its black/white scheme. The way Western countries (especially the US) use to fund foreign groups is extremely impressed by the cold war, when it was all about the Soviets. Substitute wars were the main idea of foreign politics - to the bad of the people.
Nowadays, we’re coming to the conclusion that it’s better to empower the people themselves, but problematically most Western countries do this just to have a profit from it. Freedom is only given in exchange for economical profits… That’s why I’m saying the change must come from the inside: If not, it will be abused.
And, as you said, democracy is a culture. We can have a look at the countries where recently regimes were overthrown. By their people, but with Western money.
For example Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine… Yes, these countries are democracies now. But they are not stable at the moment - democracy must become part of their national culture.
(As a German, I have to bring up the example of our “Weimarer Republic” between the two world wars. In this time, Germany had a very progressive democracy, i.e. with women’s suffrage and a Jewish foreign minister. But democracy wasn’t part of our national culture. Prime ministers changed nearly every half a year, political parties where fighting a clash between right-wing nationalists, monarchists, socialists and communists. You know, it ended up with the election of Adolf Hitler, who right after it turned the state to a dictatorship - without any bigger rebellion from the people, who yearned for a strong leader instead of an unstable democratic government.)
This example shows, that democracy needs its time to grow. I think, that’s the time for the West to back democratic leaders - after a revolution lead by the people themselves.
Simon,
I didn’t know Germany had a Jewish foreign minister before Hitler…If and only if Hitler was not elected…. how things could be defferent. The fact it we cannot change the course of history, history has its own route and its own pace. Democracies need their needed time to develop within a country. I just cannot see the borders any more, the borders are merging and the world changing into a single nation through trade and communication and multinational companies and organizations working in all the spots of the the world. I wish I could be reborn some 500 years from now and see how different things have become
“history has its own route and its own pace”
oh no, fatalism!
But what you say about the world becoming a single nation is interesting. I’m living in the EU, a project, that perfectly shows the problems of this process. I.e., we have a common government, which defines guidelines for some parts of our law. It consists of the elected members of our national parties, which build fractions (I still can’t believe it, but there’s a nationalist’s block too - consisting of xenophobic Romanians, Poles, Austrians…). But we don’t feel as one country or even one union: Nobody would call himself a European rather than a German.
Ok, it’s a really young union. But its main problem wont be solved within near future: We just can’t communicate. We don’t have a common language, we can’t communicate (many people still don’t speak English, sad but true…). In fact, I’m reading only one single blog from a fellow European which is not written in German - because there aren’t many English-language blogs. I’m rather able to communicate with Arab bloggers than with our French “neighbours”. That’s weird, isn’t it? But I wonder how things will change in the next - now, let us say 50 years. I’m not gonna bear this life 500 years long just to see what happens to my country
But after this “short” digression, I have to say I agree with you in the point that we’re going towards a globalized world where borders become less influential, if they keep existing at all. But the question to me is if people can bear this situation of change. Will they keep struggling for values such as democracy, freedom and peace? Or will they, like 1930’s Europeans, yearn for a powerful, strong leader to take them through the waves of history like a modern Moses? I think, that’s nothing to be left for fate’s decision. It’s up to us - we can, yes we can ;-), fight for these values: Democracy, Freedom and Peace. And change the world - from the inside.
O.k., I’m becoming pathetic. Time for bed now
“Don’t feed the trolls”
The stock phrase when you have nothing to say and only want to read those who agree with you.
Israel started with nothing, no money, with Holocaust survivors and with Jews from Arab countries who had no knowledge of the West or Western technology. That’s what Israel had.
Those who can’t stand the idea that Israel’s culture is way ahead of the surrounding , backward, medieval Arab Moslem culture will cite Elinor’s arguments but to no avail. Where do the Moslems go for medical treatment? Israel. Their own doctors will refuse them treatment unless they get paid in advance.
Honor Killing is the sign of a primitive culture where the man has life or death powers over his property - women and sheep.
Who has the real money? The Arab petro billionaires while Israel has had to earn her foreign exchange with real products, not the oil commodity.
With the half exception of Turkey, the Moslem world is not suited for democracy, only kings and dictators. The Moslems can be as “educated” as any Westerner but,as the 9/11 people showed, they use it to create terrorism.
Simon,
There will always remain the borderlines that defines the individuality, depending on how this individuality is defined. I understand EU is a promising project and there are more or less problems that make it seem less successful than it should be. But in essence it is a very smart project that could bring people of a region togethere and give them more power to prosper, or share the prosperity with less fortunate territories…within its defined territory..
I guess the nations who will come after us will say Aye to a Union, European or non- European. I wish the same thing for Middle East. I know about the scope of problems to deal with toward such an ambitious goal, but if a region comes to this point that this is the way to survive decently and advance, perhaps things will change in a way countries plan for a Union as yours, instead of shapening the sharpnels and buying all the junk toy weaponary to feel assured of safity and security.
I remember reading about Israel being established and the problem of language and how it was solved. A group of smart people mopdified the Hebrew language and updated the Biblical sysntax as to meet the requirements of people who might adopt the language for daily communication. At the same time there was a tendency to adopt German language as the national language of the Holy land, because of the great number of Ashkenazim migrating from Europe to Israel and their language being Yiddish, which is a combination of old Germanic terms and syntax, embedded by a good number of Hebrew and Aramaic terms.
Finally the decisions were in favor of Hebrew as the national language and people had to adopt that. In a Yiddish speaking Kibutz they decided to talk in Hebrew one day a week, in fact in that one day every one had to talk only in Hebrew. That day was the of silence
Emanuel,
A holy book of one of the religions people of the Middle East practice argues :
There is nothing for human being, unless he/she has worked hard to achieve it.
That is how Israel was born. A group of ambitious people invested in the land, with all their efforts, sharing money and knowldge and ambition, looking to a very far reaching future, which did not look very promising to begin with.
Emanuel, Mizrachim were Arabs as you say, they had their share in building the country. WHat I want to say here is that being uncivilized had nothing to do with the nationality of a group of people. If we want to judge people that way, we have to be very shocked about a civilized Europe and Holocaust being its bitter fruit whose survivors are still alive, only 50 years back this ugliest scenario of human race was played out in the setting of Europe.
We can also remember well the mass killing of Bosnians and that happened a decade back? In Europe, right? Israel helped the Bosnians a lot, that I know.
So if in a phase of history a group of people are not in their best state of integrity, we will not racially deny them, as a group of bad people.
In fact, we will need to join forces and come together despite all the differences to celebrate all what we have in common. One day the problems of Palestine-Israel will be solved, like problems of Iran and the rest of the Middle East, Arab nations and non arab nations, Mulims and non muslim nations, because we all have very important issues to focus on and help each other prosper.
When there is no equity, the society bears a fruit called extremism. Extremism fades away when democracy ( or equity in general) is perserved.
Emanuel, I agree with you about the medical help of Israel. Before the revolution, even the very religious people in Iran, some times the clerics would go to Israel for treatment, specially eye surgeries. I know that Haddasah operates the wounded from Gaza and it pays half the price itself and the rest the NGO’s take care of.
I hpe things will change before any thing else in your region, because that is very painful and very unnecessary, people are already living together, there are already Arab MKs in the Israeli parliament and both the nations agree on the two state solution. What remains is the particulars and that doesn’t need all what is going on. I hope that countries around be supportive of the peace plan and we tend to a better Middle East.
ERS
In a province where stoning as a punishment is practiced by law, it is not very surprising that an individual personally decide to punish the guilty that way. For some years during the time that reformists had the power, the UN intervention stopped the stoning in Iran, but it all happened again after the extremists regained power. I think before any thing else the laws should change to meet the human rights atandards, then people will gradually be affected, specially in the less developed provinces.
To Elinor
First, those who bear us ill will start by chipping away at our history and language. Hence the nonsense about the German/Yiddish kibbutz and Hebrew. No, the opposite is true. We, the natives of the land, torn away by Roman imperialism, have returned to claim it from Arab/ Moslem imperialists. Go back to Arabia!
Second, you call us “ambitious” - a snide term instead of what you’d call yourselves - patriotic.
Third - there is no Iran, only Persia with whom we dealt with in the past before the Moslem conquest. The Parsees, the Zoroastrians, are the only true Persians. The ones in charge today are merely fanatical Moslems with a Persian veneer. Their nation means nothing; just stoning women, persecuting Bahais, and suicide using the coming nuclear program is what excites them.
Fourth - Mizrahim are NOT Arabs. They are Jews, same as I am, but who unfortunately were born in Arab or Moslem countries. This filth was washed away with the Hebrew language reborn.
Now, as we speak, the Iranian Moslem leadership is busy creating a crisis atmosphere which will result in a nuclear exchange if not stopped by respect for us, Israel, as our right to live in our own house instead of being dhimmis under the Moslem foot. Forget it.
Us not being “In our best integrity”? Bad English but good Iranian. What does it mean? We don’t have to answer to you or anyone else, same as Ahmadinejad. He answers to his own group. Fine. So be it.
What you will have to put aside is this Arab/ Moslem idea that you will get “justice”. Forget it. The Arabs around us are not your business but you will bring disaster on yourselves ( Iran) because they’re “Moslems”. Pain and blood will be your reward and the 77 virgins. What will you, as a woman, get in Moslem heaven? 77 boys?
NO, we don’t have to or want to come together with you if it means savage treatment of human beings - men, for changing religion, or dancing with women, or reading forbidden books, or wearing western styles. For women, the crime of falling in love.
Fine anecdote you brought up, Elinor. It tells a lot about human communication!
I wonder, if panarabism will live up to a revival. Not now, as none of the dictators would agree to step down for the sake of a union, but in a couple of years. Before, the countries to unify had to be democracies, but then the common language Arabic could build a good foundation for such a union.
And to emanuel: You ARE a troll. Look at what you wrote: Have you come here for participating in the discussion - or just for flaming and nationalist propaganda? I think, you know what I mean.
Wow, you reek of brutish ignorance. Without the U.S’s financial and military support Israel wouldn’t be close to what it is today. Without the U.S and Britain shutting up the UN, the EU, and many other international organizations Israel would be facing a hideous amount of war crime charges. Be sure you understand where the sources of your success come from, lots of Israeli leaders achieved things with a lot of innocent blood on their hands. And you honestly think all Arab Muslims get medical treatment in Israel? What a fool you are. Without the U.S, the UK, financial support and international acceptance/recognition despite many faults, Israel would be nothing. So don’t go celebrating your so-called achievements just yet. Perhaps you can grab a book or two and try to educate your witless self on the world around you and on the many great things that Muslims contributed to the world, instead of resorting to this distasteful self-important attitude.
In any case, you’re a racist, hateful nationalist with a laughable superiority complex. It’s due to people like you that many of our problems in the Middle East still exist. I pity you, and anyone else with your retarded mentality. Have some shame, child.
To those who don’t like to hear the truth re Israel and the Arabs
The head of Iran threatens another sovereign State, Israel, with nuclear destruction just for being the land of the Jews. The Arabs like Nasrallah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza and the PLO deny Israel the right to be unless she surrenders her independence and self determination to Arab terms. The Imams actually go on TV and call Israel the sons of lower animals.
Yet, there are those here who call me “racist”. It’s the Arab logic. I get to hit you but you can’t hit back.
Iran and other Moslem societies force women to go around in black, the color of death in the family. Some take away a woman’s sexuality by forcibly cutting the clitoris at puberty. And this is what you want to force Israel to agree to in order to have “peace”. No, my own ways and my own soul and if war is the price, I’ll double it.
You are in fact a seething racist. It’s not the Arab logic, you pitiful soul, especially since neither Elinor nor Simon are Arabs. Everyone thinks you’re a racist, I’m sure many Israelis do too and are ashamed that you have to misrepresent them in this horrible light.
What about the MANY Israelis who refer to Arabs as leeches and insects? What about the rabbis who call for our death? Suddenly they don’t exist? Fool!
Take a dosage of your own medicine and be quiet, Emanuel, your cheap racist comments are not welcome in this website. Go educate yourself and your ilk.
Simon:)
I was always fascinated by languages and Hebrew is very atractive in a term that it is a rebirth of an ancient language, and this happened simultaneously by the rebirth of the nation. Languages in the words tend to die, and rarely we witness the revival of a language. Some have decided to make use of artificial languages to create a single language all people could communicate, that had been a failor as well. But Hebrew, which was not spoken as a language by non of Jewish communities in non of the Jewish people in Diaspora, became the language that vitally contributed to the daily lives of people living in Israel. The biblical Hebrew sentence would start with a verb at the begining of a sentence but the modern Hebrew placed the subject before the verb, to make it easy. Now we have a large number of Israelis who read and speak and compose poetry, write books in Hebrew. The interesting feature of the language is that the youth speak it better, because the ones who migrate may not adopt it very well and their kids go on correcting their mistakes.
About the Pan Arabism and its rebirth, it is possible. I personally agree with nationalism as much as it doesn’t mean denying other nations or looking down at other people, that much that would make people pull themselves together and help one another build and preserve a well-shaped society is healthy
Emanuel, you write with a lot of anger, but unfortunately, anger will not cut it, and will not protect Israel in the long run.
Elinor speaks of the possibility of hope, and you choose to extinguish that possibility. Is that in Israel’s best interest? Is Israel really strong enough to cope with an endless reality of hopelessness?
Israel has been innovative in many ways. It’s true. And now, it is time to use that innovation to point to the possibility of peace. You paint with too broad a brush. It is true that Israel has achieved quite a lot, but she has her share of problems as well. And it is also true that there is ideological extremism in the world, on both sides of the political fence, but the vast majority of Muslims are good people, who want a better life for their children. We have to find a way to tap into that positive energy.
As for the extremists; they will have to be defeated, wherever they may be found. The question remains; what is the best way of doing that. And this is where Israel, and America, and the West, and moderate Muslims, will have to put their thinking hats on, and use their innovation for the good.
The best way to defeat ideological extremists is to beat them at their own game- to co-opt their strategy and to do what they do, only better.
If they are ideological about Jihad; you be ideological about Common Sense.
If they invest in charitable handouts; you invest some serious dollars in jobs, jobs which inspire a sense of hope, and jobs which protect the environment.
If they sell a vision of hope for martyrdom, or paradise, or 72 virgins; you sell a Vision of Hope for Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom.
At every turn, you cut them off at the pass. You beat them at their own game, and you marginalize them in the eyes of their own people. The ideological extremists will not be able to capture the public’s imagination, once people begin to imagine a better life for themselves.
Emanuel, this is the only way to move forward. Holding on to our resentments, or to our indignation about past events, will not move us forward, and will, in fact, endanger the things we value most.
Dear Nissim,
I respectfully disagree.
I’m not angry, just realistic. Israeli tactics to this point have not worked.
Sixty years after the State was founded you have frontline communities like Sderot. First Sderot and last Tel Aviv. Ben Gurion would be ashamed of you.
Some of your elders and teachers have betrayed you and are willing to sacrifice you for their immediate comfort. Rather, look for people to follow who will look
after your welfare and will avenge you, not bargain over you if you’re a prisoner. That’s what kills morale in any army.
The first job is to change the idea that this forum is only for people who have the same ideas. It’s a very Arab concept, the sheep nodding in 100% agreement with
the leader. That’s why you have Saddam hussein, Arafat, melon head in Syria and the little rat in Iran. Any disagreement from the Arab or Leftist norm is considered
“racist”. Tyranny of body and spirit is what the arab/ Moslem world knows and it’s stupid to want to come close to it.
@ Emanuel,
People who write here, I mean most of them are the ones who are sharing their views despite all what is plitically happening, we all know about the severity and brutality, one way or the other, we have either been subject to that or at least we have had some relatives, some frieds being faced with all the harsh things you are concerned with.
Emaunel, I think you are very angry, very much frustrated because of all the peace plans that never mean stability and security and an end to the threats and dangers.
If I said Mizrachim were Arabs, that is the language they speak, even now after years of migrating to Israel you see that Jews from Iraq take pleasure in listening to Om Kulthum or watching Egyptian old movies. Parsees are Iranians or Persians, even though they are Israeli. That is not denying their Israeli identity, that is rather a flavor in their Israeli nationality. Well you might be in Israel, and you might have Parsi friends who are still in touch with their Persian roots, I don’t know much, but I have heard that every year the Nasi( the previous Nasi) and Mufaz would send a greeting message via the Israeli tv to Israeli Parsis. I know of some of them who come to Iran and visit their relatives, some who go from Iran to visit their relatives and pary at the Kotel. Both Iran and Israel know that this is happening but it is like they cannot find a serous way to object this very natural behavior of people trying to meet up and pray.
Religion is only second to humanity, as human beings we are all the kids of Chava, we can live together in peace. Emanuel you are not the only person who is very angry about how politics and shortcomings and all the bad things you were talking about have affected our region.
I think there are many people in your country who do not think exactly the way you think, even though they might feel very bitter about the same things you feel. It was not long back that President Shimon Peres was in one of these Arab countries you are talking about. He went to the market and chatted with the shop keepers in Arabic. It is not defiling, in fact communication could lead to much better results.
Emanuel, if you are Israeli and angry because you are in the middle of a conflict it is uderstandable, as it is understandable from a Palestinian who might wire in the forum with much anger and passion. Right now we are not directly in a conflict or war, but we understand it, at least partially because more or less we have all had our share of bad fortune. We had 8 years of ugly war with Iraqis, I really don’t know why, and I lost my dad in the war. I do not blame Arabs, Iraqis or even other countries, it happens, wars are inevitable when the crisis reaches its peak. In the summer time in the tropical regions you cannot stop the monsoon rain when the heat and humidity reaches its highest limits.
I hope things will change for better. Nations will come to recognize one another’s rights and respect each other, as individuals like you and me will practice doing that, right?
By the way, I did not insult you, or your religon, your country, your race, your being, your identity. What made you feel so negative toward the word ” ambition” does not mean I used the term in a negative sense. I respect all the nations, I blame the ignorance of some of our people on the entire population of mankind, not a single race or single country or a group of specific individuals.
@ Esra’a:
Elinor is Iranian, I’m German - we’re devils!
@ Elinor:
Yes, the rebirth of language - that is, definitely, something which can only happen together with rebuilding a national community. I have read about other language revival projects - i.e. Manx or Cornish - but none of it is really successful. The rebirth of Hebrew is a fascinating story, something I would not expect to be possible in this short time if I didn’t know about it.
But, as I have no connection to it, I have to keep on watching my own language changing. Still interesting. We’re adopting English words and phrases, sometimes without even knowing it. Evolution at its best, live and now
I’d like to respond to the first few comments posted to this article, although I realize it is slightly off the topic of honor killings.
Nissam: “The West is well advised to put that alternative on the table. If the West is good at anything it is making and investing money. Why not use that strength to promote the peace and to win the war against ideological extremism?”
The West does this. US and Europe pay extremely high taxes, a lot of which goes to ending poverty and supporting education, ect, in other countries. WHICH countries and HOW this money is spent is up for debate - especially because that differs with each administration’s needs and goals - but it is done. Of course, this tax money is also used - as you pointed out - to pay off dictators or otherwise self serving purposes.
However, Americans are still the #1 private donors to charitable organizations worldwide…..and one of the reasons for this is because Americans pay lower taxes than other 1st world countries (like in Europe). It’s a direct correlation between private giving and the government giving. It may sound productive for this to be done through government, ie democratically, but as you already pointed out there are a number of problems with this.
Following your logic in what the West should invest in (protecting the enviroment, jobs), there would be two options for this in a democracy: one, you agree to pay a higher %age of taxes and try to convince your elected officials that these causes are more important than other causes (like, for example, fighting AIDS and malaria); or two, you pay lower taxes and invest in those things you personally find important. Of course, the risk there is that what you personally value might not be the same as others, therefore not putting enough money into your causes.
Simon, you said: “Investment means: Giving money in exchange for some expected output. I’m quite unhappy with Western countries giving their money to Oriental dictators - that’s something I really would like to be changed.” By your definition, this is a form of investment - the West gets something out of this exchange.
As Elinor stated, the West funds what the west agrees with….of course they do, and it’s their discretion to do so. Changing that would be, to a certain extent, changing the ideals on which the West was founded on and believes works. This is not a legitimate criticism of the system - what is a legitimate criticism is that the West also gives money in exchange for other investments which belie their founding principles (ie saying you support democracy and then giving billions/year to Egypt).
I completely agree with your statement that democracy needs to come from the inside and that it needs time to grow. This is a double edged sword for the West….fund the people who believe in democracy on a ground level, and it’s still considered a form of interference and many times the recipents are rejected because of where the money comes from (example: Saad Eddin Ibrahim in Egypt).
Simon you said: “But the question to me is if people can bear this situation of change. Will they keep struggling for values such as democracy, freedom and peace? Or will they, like 1930’s Europeans, yearn for a powerful, strong leader to take them through the waves of history like a modern Moses? I think, that’s nothing to be left for fate’s decision. It’s up to us - we can, yes we can ;-), fight for these values: Democracy, Freedom and Peace. And change the world - from the inside.”
I feel the same way - that we can fight for values of democracy, freedom, and peace…..but it seems to me that one of the only ways to do this sucessfully is to separate religion from the state. As Esra’a so eloquently pointed out to me on a different thread, many ME countries are simply not ready to accept this idea yet.
Esra’a
Some thing makes Emanuel think that I am the representative of the Iranian government with all the threats and measures. One of the problems we have in Middle East is we cannot represent ourselves as individuals, individuals who think the way they think.
It is a pity that people affected by the conflicts come to the conclusion that they might deny one another in any possible way, well, that is what the Iranian government is doing with Israel right after the revolution. The Iranian claim is even much harser than many Arab countries, I don’t know what is the objective of the regime. I once asked some one who was an expert in politcal science here. I asked him why Iran after the revolution suddenly changed and changed that dramatically in its foreign policy, he answered that Iran and Israel are both powerful in the region, before the revolution they belonged to the same block of power, so that made them less of rivals, but after the revolution Iran changed ” blocks” , and that brought about all differences. The Iranian claims are also disturbing the peace plan that Arabs and Israelis and the International representatives are trying to put to practice.
Esra’a I guess Emanuel does not know that Iran had the largest Jewish community in the region, after Israel.
Dear Elinor,
I object to any view not within the arab or Moslem concensus being labelled as “racist’ or “angry” as if you’re some sort of psychiatrist.
Any woman living in Iran is amde to walk out the door dressed in black as if a family member had died. Yes, the nation has died and the corpse is rulled by Moslem fanatics. Any Iranian woman should be “angry”. If Israel adopted the same policy and made Arab women wear Western dress only, the outcry would be great. But, the same Leftists and Moslem apologists turn a blind eye to Moslem religious tyranny.
Yes, that makes me “angry” and proud of it.
Jessica,
What I said about west funding what West agrees with was not a criticism of the legitimacy of a system. Here the intervening factor is how the investments and interests of different countries and their competition in gaining more or making more profit would turn the underdeveloped country into a battlefield and make the process much longer than what it should be, or some times the results would show less of the profit for the investor and the country being invested in, regarding the concequences of copetition which i do not believe the constitution of the United Stated of America would support that.
Emanuel seems to think that having an anti-troll policy means that we only allow fellow Arab sheep to express their opinions, where everyone agrees with each other. This is a further testimony of his ignorance, as more than 80% of the authors here completely (ideologically, religiously, politically, socially, and ethically) disagree with each other and don’t represent each other’s values (with the exception of the core ones - freedom and mutual respect.)
Not a single one of them resorts to such racist and hateful tactics the way Emanuel rudely has.
This is just an FYI for everyone out there who complains about us only allowing comments we agree with get through. Express them nicely and without resorting to racism, and no one would have a problem!
Simon,
Germany denounces the racists and I have heard from some Israeli firneds that they had been treated well in germany as students or trourists.
Right now Israel and Germany are in good terms
Now we serve as the badmans of the movie:) Not that I ma happy about that, I cannot do any thing about it
By the way I was thinking of learning German, because of the Yiddish German roots. I heard some Rabbis talking and their Yiddish sounded a beautiful German. The reason that Hebrew as a language could survive was the strong sense of people who called it ” Kodesh”. Kodesh in Hebrew and Kuds in Arabic ( both rooted in Aramaic) mean Holy. By the way I am a noahide, that makes Hebrew Kodesh for us as well
Nissim:)
Thank you for bringin back the vision of Hope. I feel much better when I am hopeful. I am not hurt by Emanuel, because I am used to it, Iranians some times treat me that way ( it happens more because I am an Iranian living in Iran). Nissim, do I look like Ahmadinejad in the forum?
Elinor, I completely agree that sometimes foreign investments create bad results….but is that worse than not investing at all?
You’re right in saying that the US Constitution does not support economic failure of investments….but the constitution does support free will and choice in finances, and the people’s right to direct - through their elected officials - where their tax money is spent. Investment failure is simply one of the downsides of capitalism….and one I’m willing to accept in the face of other economic system choices.
Jessica,
It is not safe to invest in an unstable country, right? Or it requires much fight in the battlefield to make the area of investment being secured.
Investment is so good, but the fact that the investor might fight and many innocent lives be challenged, that would distords the dignity of capitalism, not an investment which needs less of tragedy.
Well, some times it is the will of people, how one should blame the investor, when people themselves call for it, suppose, in the process of investing in Iraq, I am not sure if people of America approved of this one. I mean I still don’t know if it was an investment, a war, a way to offer or impose democracy ( could democracy be imposed?).
I guess Iranian regime was happy to see less of Saddam, Kurds too, and Israel as well, perhaps Kuwait was relieved as well.
It is amazing that Iran and America negotiate the ways to secure ( investments) in Iraq.
I mean when it comes to politics I gues very confused and that’s why I mostly refrain from political issues. What we see is a distorted picture, we never have to whole picture, we put the pieces to gether and try to interprete what we see.
Jessica,
I never understood why America did not attack Iran after the hostage-taking crisi. I never understood why Shah of Iran could not come to USA when he moved out of Iran, although it seemed America was a friend, a friend who helped the coup de tat which diminished the government of the our most nationalistic prime minister, and helped Shah keep his throne. Now the same shah could not enter the USA after the revolution pushed him out of the country. The whole story and the fact that the low prices of oil durting the war of Iran and Iraq was benefitiary for 1) the consumer who bought millions of barrels daily from the gulf, 2) the oil dealers inside the country who were mostly the people who possessed authority.
Turning a blind eye on this fact for some decades made the most unwanted group of extremists brqce themselves and provice the suiciders with as many grenades as they wanted.
Elinor, you certainly don’t look like Ahmadinejad, much to your credit. And by all means, keep believing, beyond hope, that things can get better, and maybe one day there may actually be something that truly is worth believing in.
Jessica, you say that the West does it’s share to help others. Yes, but not enough. According to the noted economist, Jeffrey Sacks, in his book The End of Poverty, the West invests about .2 of one percent of its income in helping the underdeveloped countries. That’s not a lot, Jessica. In fact, if this amount were increased to .7 of one percent, then we would be able to eliminate extreme poverty and disease.
The West, until now, has not seen it as in its interest, to engage the developing world in this manner. About 11,000 people die every day in Africa from hunger and disease. Most of us in the West are perfectly comfortable to allow this reality to persist. Afterall, it doesn’t really touch us. Does it?
And yet, as the world becomes smaller technologically, and economically, we realize that we really are a part of a global village, and if we don’t do something drastic to bring about justice, then the injustice will come back to bite us in the ass. This is especially the case in a world where everyone can see how the other half lives on their TV and computer screens.
In terms of higher taxes, versus direct investment, I would advocate both. Our government should invest much more in Public Diplomacy, and in tax breaks to those in private industry who are willing to carry the mantle of opening up new markets in the Middle East and in Africa; to create new jobs, and to launch products which will protect the environment is some substantial way. Arab governments should also underwrite some of these investments. They should use the “black gold” of oil profits to fund the “green technology” of the future. It would be good for PR and for neutralizing the extremism with good paying jobs.
And Emanuel, you mention the loss of morale in the Israeli army. When people are asked to fight, and they don’t know what the hell they’re fighting for, then there will be a loss of morale. And if you lose your morale, how are you going to be able to protect your country?
Peace loving people, in Israel, in the West, and throughout the Middle East, will have to fight. The enemy if fiercely determined and is emboldened by ideological conviction. But in order to sustain and win the fight that lies ahead, we will have no choice but to position the fight within a Vision of Hope. We will have to raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain and give the fight a moral clarity of purpose. We are not fighting a “war against terror.” We are fighting a war to realize a Vision of Hope. There’s a big difference.
Emanuel:)
Dear, I liked this dear so much, you know after all those harsh words this dear was like a nargilla, or a cigara. See how easy an Iranian could be your dear? vice versa applies as well:)
There is one thing that i want to tell you, me being sheepish had nothing to do with my being Parsi, Arab, Muslim, Non muslim. I am sheepish because thats what i am, sababa?
If I have a rat on the hat, I have the cartoon ” Ratatuille”. That compensates for it doesn’t it?
The melon head could be dealt with, using a base ball cap:)
Well I am angry for wearing all black ( being imposed on me). Well I don’t hate the ones who believe this is a good way of exercising a religion, but I hate the ones who impose than on me, because i don’t believe in it. If there is freedom of choice the lady who likes to dress that way would do so, and a woman like me would wear her casual jeans every where.
Emanuel, don’t tell me you hate all arabs, all Iranians, sure you have some friends whom you think are not like others.
Here in Iran we do have racist people who think even a single arabic word in their language makes them less of an iranian. But man that doesn’t feel good. Yes once we were Zarostrians, untill the time that our kings did not live to the pious standards of the religion and consequently we had a very strict cast system and the laborors or farmers meant nothing and people of wealth and name and fame were the masters of the land. That was the reason Persia failed. That was the reason people sais Aye to a new culture, new system, new religion that preached for equality of man. In pracice that didn’t happen, because the ruller, oppressor was replaced by a man of religion, doing all the same things….,
How can I feel like a psychiatrist when I am a psycho myself?
And I’s proud of it
Now is there a translation for :
Echad stain shalosh, nafalti al harosh?
@ Jessica:
What you said about Western subventions for the “rest of the world”: In fact, a group of Western countries have promised to spend some share of their income for helping developing countries. I think it was 0,75% of their GDP, but no matter how much it was: None of the countries actually gives that much - most of them don’t even spend half of the money for the promised help.
And then, much money is spent for military help. i.e., the US give a yearly amount of 2 billion dollars to Egypt - but only 800 millions of it are for purposes…
@ Elinor:
Well, I wouldn’t advise you to learn German, as it is a very complicated language with a hard sound, I’m far from considering it easy or beautiful… Yiddish is softer sounding and has, for German eyes, an ancient touch. It’s always like it had been conserved for the last few hundred years. As you said it, a beautiful German
Ok, I’ve just started learning Arabic, will see how that goes - maybe I’ll find German much easier after that experience
Elinor, it means: “One, Two, Three…I fell on my head.” This explains some of the warped thinking we see around here. Just kidding.
I never said the West does “it’s share” of helping other countries, because I believe no one can actually judge what is what country’s fair share…and I do believe the West should do more.
I simply presented the question of the specific ecnomic means of HOW the West should “do more.” After all, there is not unlimited money in the world to be invested.
The Dutch, for example, pay extremely high taxes and their government is one of the leaders in giving foreign aid. Americans, comparatively, pay lower taxes but are the leaders in private charitable donations. Both countries could do more, but which system is better? I would argue the latter.
Nissam, when you quote that book, what percentage of income are you talking about? Are you speaking of .2% of all tax monies given to the government, or are you speaking of each individual’s income after taxes?
I completely disagree that the West is content to sit back and watch people in Africa die of hunger. Multiple foreign organizations that are on the ground in Africa are supported by Americans. I firmly believe that poverty and disease in Africa affects me in a number of ways (one of which you stated, which is that it will come back to bite me in the ass), which is why I - privately - donate to organizations that address this issue. My point is that the government shouldn’t dissaude me from making such donations by raising taxes and spending it in ways I don’t agree with - as in the case of the current US policy: spending money on teaching abstinence as opposed to buying condoms for people who have HIV/AIDS.
Simon: Yes, much of the foreign aid given by the US is used for military purposes. In the case of Egypt, last year the US Congress allocated $1.3 billion to be used for military purposes, much of which is then used to buy planes and tanks made by American companies. This is a self-supporting system - indirectly, the taxes I pay go to maintain American jobs and the economy.
However, this is not the type of aid I was speaking of - I was only speaking of civillian aid, which last year for Egypt was allocated at $415 million. This $415 million does go to support schools, clean water systems, religious tolerance programs, democracy, ect. It is not a perfect system - many of the people that USAID has supported in democratic reform, for example, are then persecuted by the government - but then the question is would you rather have a curropt system where some money is still going directly to the people, or would you rather delete the system all together? Or, the third option, which requires more checks and balances on the system to ensure there is no curroption…which ultimately also lessens the amount that gets directly to the people?
Jessica, you seem very well informed about charitable giving, and how it relates to foreign policy.
I think that Dr. Sachs is speaking about .2 of one percent of Gross Domestic Product. As part of the millenium goal of eliminating world hunger, disease, and extreme poverty, it has been calculated by the UN and by Dr. Sachs, that if we in the West can increase our giving to .7 of one percent of GDP, then we will be able to eliminate hunger, disease, and extreme poverty.
You seem very well informed about what form this giving should take. And I am certainly no expert on the matter. However, my sense is that the most effective way of doing it is to have government fund extensive Public Diplomacy Programs, and have the private sector create jobs abroad by opening new markets and creating jobs. The government could use tax incentives to promote such projects. Arab money wouldn’t hurt in this regard, and may be feasible to obtain.
If you create jobs in the Middle East that inspire hope, and that protect the environment, you could solve a number of problems at the same time: you could begin to overcome the poverty trap, you could help neutralize the influence of extremist elements, you could begin to turn around a number of threats to the environment, and you could revitalize American and Western morale.
I agree with you that Americans, by their nature, are very giving people. But it is time to do more, and to do it in such a way that is able to solve a number of critical issues at the same time.
I wish I could start such a project in the West Bank. Maybe you could suggest where to start. I envision a consortium of Arab and Israeli investors who hire and train Palestinian workers, and who produce a product which protects the environment in some substantial way. If we could get Saudi funding, that would be the icing on the cake. Such a project would resonate with hope and would say to the world that a Vision of Hope could be made real if people choose to make it so. This could result in worldwide attention, which could result in more investment, more jobs, and more protection of the environment. Imagine, meeting our greatest challenges by inspiring in one another a sense of hope. Any suggestions?
Jessica, Nissin,
As you probably know, there are many in the US that think that ALL foreign aid and government sponsored investment in “unsupportive” countries should cease immediately and never resume. The problem is that americans see their tax dollars go to benifit people who are ungrateful, who hate us and advocate killing us. How much money went to IRAN (for Pete’s sakes) for “earthquake relief”???? Then the recipeints bitched that the aid was “not as generous as it should have been”.
Americans see the “Petro Czars” as insanely rich tyrants who don’t care about the welfare of their people or their muslim brothers in other, less well oil endowed, countries. For example, the guy with the solid silver mercedes, a dozen palaces the size of a sports arena, and a 500 million dollar airplane with solid gold bathrooms. Or how about that “ski slope” built in the hottest desert on earth. So why should americans care? Americans working low-pay jobs and can’t get health care and see their jobs going overseas ask this question. So answer it for them…..why should we care???
Silly claim. The USA is doing this for the sake of their own political interests - this money is NOT personal investments to Arabs. The USA couldn’t care less about the development of these nations or democracy or human rights, nor is anyone asking them to care. The USA is paying to secure their own position in the region, nothing more than that. For as long as your tax money is going towards terror-ridden dictatorships in our region, WE care!
Boohoo. If that is really what you think, then I feel very sorry for you. Obviously you are unaware at all of how most Arabs generally feel, and the fact that in many ways, this feeling has been mutual for decades.
Because your stupid tax money is supporting dictatorships that terrorize their own civilians. You don’t go through 1% of what most Arab and Muslims go through under their own misled governments, all the torture and gore, supported financially and backed politically by none other than the “heroic” USA. So don’t even start.
Nissam,
If I am understanding what you want to propose correctly, you should look into the ONE campaign (www.one.org)…which - minus the enviromental protection aspect - strives to do many of the goals you speak of, namely advocating the US Congress to put more money towards the people in a number of different countries in order to end poverty, disease, ect. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is another one that is doing GREAT work in Africa. Both these organizations are supported with private donations, not public tax money.
I’m afriad I don’t know how to guide you to create an organization like this in the West Bank because the laws will differ in each country. Here in the States, it takes a lot of paperwork and a very specific application to get an organization to have non-profit status. All donations to such an organization are tax-deductible, hence giving people more of an incentive to donate.
I do have a lot of experience with non-profit organizations (ones based in the US and internationally), so if you have any specific questions I’d be happy to try and answer them as best as I can.
To respond to your point that the solution would be increased money to public diplomacy matters, to do this would automatically mean higher taxes (meaning, for every American, their salary or wage would be the same, but their checks every week would become smaller because the government is taking more and more out each time). I