‘Fitna’ Reaction
This post is cross-posted from my blog.
After watching ‘Fitna‘ yesterday, I wasn’t sure whether to post a reaction that night here on the blog. The film failed to move me either way. It was a series of images which we have all seen before, especially regular readers of blogs, while the only thing distinguishing it from a U.S presidential campaign ad was that Wilders’ argument is directed at the entire religion and not just at an identified radical strain.
Let’s face it, the film was boring. It didn’t live up to its hype. However now that it seems the initial reaction to the film was one of relief, it may very well shine the spotlight on Wilders’ argument. It is an argument that I do not believe can stand much scrutiny if considered honestly, and one that is not easily proven by a 15 minute film.
Of course, the IRI responded quickly. The Iranian Foreign Minister was quoted as saying “This heinous measure by a Dutch lawmaker and a British establishment … is indicative of the continuation of the evilness and deep vengeance such Western nationals have against Islam and Muslims.”
In Pakistan, a few demonstrations took place, none of them attracting over 100 people. The story still managed to make the IHT. Indonesia also issued a statement, saying:
“We are of the view that the film has a racist flavour and is an insult to Islam, hidden under the cover of freedom of expression,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. “We call on Indonesian people not to be incited.”
Once again, however, all this pales in comparison to reaction within Holland. I wrote this at the beginning of the month:
Yet what is worrying about this story is its’ propensity to attract judgment on the basis of foreign reaction. The movie’s release and broadcast may not necessarily stoke severe social tensions within the Netherlands, but looks bound to provoke an international reaction disproportionate to the issue itself. Religious leaders from Egypt and Syria have demanded the EU take action against those who insult religion, for example, bringing back into focus an increasingly familiar debate of cultural sensitivity versus freedom of speech.
I still think this story has a way to go before people forget about it, although it shouldn’t provide us with much more than increased calls for interfaith dialogue as well as the lowest common denominator protests we read about every so often. One hopes at least that we don’t see an exaggerated reaction to a movie that isn’t very offensive.
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http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/geert-wilders-fitna-farce/
Great review of it there.
typical biased response…The fact that this movie was banned before anyone had even seen it speaks to how intolerant muslims in general are to free speech. Even without the video being available to be view, there were numerous threats of violence to media outlets throughout the west who were considering airing the film. This fact alone lends some credibility to the issues the filmaker was trying to illustrate.
Muhammad, that is incorrect.
Here’s the real deal on why TV stations refused to air it: Wilders refused to show the film to the television stations, so how can you expect them to air it without even seeing the film? Hell, a Dutch-Muslim television network offered to show it on their dime if Wilders was to appear afterwards in a debate and as expected, he refused. So due to his blatant hatred towards Muslims, he would have no problem turning down a Dutch-Muslim network who would have had no problem airing this program in the name of freedom of speech.
What do YOU say about that?
Poorly argued, inaccurately simplistic, and I must have yawned like 8 times within these 15 minutes of utter bullshit. Hasn’t this all been said and done like 7 years ago in the exact same tone and style? I was expecting something of substance, something intellectually challenging. What a disappointing piece of trash. Only the armies of Islamophobic simpletons will be moved by this.
Of course, if this was about Judaism, you would cringe and claim that it’s anti-Semitic, supporting its ban. But Islampophobes and bigots who indirectly advocate hatred, with the only basis being on the words of very few shallow clerics (whom we ourselves consider to be “enemies” within our own societies), get away with it.
His website wasn’t banned due to hate speech. The host pulled down the website because they have a terms of use, and they do not allow racism and advocacy of hate crime. Had it been an attack on Christians, Jews, or whoever else, the host would have reacted in the exact same manner - but no one would be whining like a bunch of schoolchilren about it. It doesn’t win them the publicity.
So, if we go back to this trashy film, who were the people he quoted? Does this idiot think we consider such clerics to be heroic? Does he not understand that Muslims themselves suffer under such people’s power more than anyone else?
Because gay Muslims aren’t threatened, and flogged to death, by these same people?
Because millions of Muslim women aren’t suffering through violence in the hands these types of clerics, who treat their wives and daughters like slaves and animals?
Because the rape or murder of thousands of Muslim women is never being justified by such clerics?
Because Shiite and Sunni Muslim clerics never wish death upon each other, and no societal discrimination takes place as a result?
Because Muslim judges never support the imprisonment and torture of human rights activists who help minority religions or ex-Muslims gain their free speech?
Poor Gert is not aware that these Muslims - despite all of this abuse - remain proudly Muslim, whether be they activists, women, homosexuals, free speech advocates.
Fear-mongering Western chauvinists don’t understand (and are too arrogant to ever be willing to listen) to the fact that it is Muslims are terrorized first and foremost by these people. If you think what they say about Jews is shocking, why don’t you hear what they say about their own Muslim brethren, their own women? Why select only a few segment and not sympathize with the millions of Muslims who must suffer under this, and who have paid with their blood, despite loving their religion so much and knowing fully well that these monsters do not represent us in any way, shape, or form?
Anything from gays to women not wearing hijab, Muslim people are abused and insulted in their societies more so than any Westerner can ever imagine.
And if there are 54 million Muslims in Europe, wouldn’t there be a whole hell of a lot more violence if all Muslims were like this? 9/11, London, and Spain, is that really all he could muster to make this argument? Gert needs to get a life. And his followers need to be schooled properly. This is getting far too boring for us now.
Next please.
I’m involved in an interfaith dialogue meeting here in Amsterdam (to be held Sunday 30th) that we have called ‘hiwar’ (dialogue) to promote the opposite of what ‘fitna’ was trying to achieve: sound knowledge, understanding and exchange of views instead of fear. With concerns of both muslims and those feeling threatened by what they perceive as ‘Islam’ (or religion in general) to be taken seriously.
by the comments I’m reading I have to say that we [muslims] should STOP judging the book by its cover.. n take some time to ‘read’ it. then start bashing if we have to. Looks like its the same old BS with a new name
SO its just a racist guy with a thing against Islam out with a movie mixed with old pictures of terrorism done by [the extremists of our faith], He finds a program, put the pix n quotes from some ‘clerics’ in some special order designed [and failing ] to make it “too shocking, too frightening, too disturbing and much of the world was holding its breath in morbid, anxious, wait for its release”
and we find tht he’s a p$$y who doesnt stand up for what he believes in
a friend said that this movie is more like extremists on both sides making life miserable
Oh n abt me not watching it
Esra’a, don’t forget that there are Muslims in Europe who have been living there longer than the birth of Protestant Christianity.
How is Geert Wilders a racist? Is Islam a race? Is it even a religion? If you read the Qur’an, you would have a hard time finding any religion in it. Islam is a political entity much like Nazism or Communism.
Tantstaafi,
It is meant to serve as our constitution, yes.
But it is wrong not to see the religious aspects of it. The whole book is based only on one thing, faith. If you have no faith, then you would have no direction in life, basically. That is what all religions are about. Guidance. Just because certain parts of it have political implications (and indeed the majority of it is scientific, yet no one claims it’s a “science”) doesn’t mean it’s a political movement. The Islamic political ideology, created mostly by Islamic leaders (corrupt as they are) is totally different than what most of the Quran suggests and proposes.
And sorry, but comparing it to Nazism and Communism is just plain ignorant.
Just a hateful bigot with no sense of “film-making.” This thing was done using what, iMovie? In 5 minutes? Ali Eteraz is right, it’s an insult calling this thing a film or a documentary in any form. Just a poor and propoagandist slideshow, boring and typical of any Islamophobe.
hi tanstaafl…
Thanks for your wise observation… Indeed, Islam is a doctrine if you will.
Honor and faith have a very particular ‘taste” in Quran. The individual is less
important than the whole of the faith. Whereas in the west personalities are result of individual development and choice. Religion is one of these choices.
No doctrine, faith or political conviction comes above the constitution or law for that matter. Those in the west accepting Quran as their constitution and sharia as law form a state within a democracy, based on difference. No matter how distatefull this film,some of the fears in the west seem justified. Spain’s elections have been influenced by violence, politicians have been murdered, Indeed; a political system within these democracies seems to have formed. Would the westerners take the same position as many of the “voices of Islam” in Europe, the bloodshed and hatred would be without precedent. Only the decency of
politicians over here, so far, has kept tolerance as a rule…
Please explain also what the difference is between the Quran in Bin Laden’s hands and the Quran inthe hands of our local iman?
People… who is Love…the Lord…who has declared the Truth and set us free and inspired freedom of thought…the Lord…who said women and men were equals…the Lord…who has told us how it all will end…the Lord…read His Word and see how He triumphs over the real infidels and the dark one that is inspiring them…He chose the Jews and has always been their defender…that is why America is strong because we stand by His chosen people…the Arabs have never wanted to accept that the Lord was pleased with the Jews’ blood sacrifice over their manual labor offering and who then chose to murder instead of drawing near to the Lord…as the Arabs chose, who else is called the father of lies and a murder?…is intolerance and threats to kill and fear to speak your heart, born of a Spirit of Love…who said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree good fruit?…I’ve read the ending and Love wins…their is still time to accept his free gift of forgiveness…Allah will be cast out along with his father into the lake of fire…glory to the Lord! Mr. Wilders is courageous and but the Arabs are drunk with the desire for power that Allah (i.e. Satan) is blinding them with. Just come to the Lord and he will remove the scales from your eyes, you poor Arabs…
Fitna – A film extracted and compiled by western ideologist and non believer. As it seem the more we learn from the live we are given and the benefits we harvested, the bolder we become, doing evil biding for Satan pleasure. The non believers forget God and they forget the true meaning of love and respect.
It is foretold that with our Faith in God and with God protection, no harm shall fall onto the believers. Only by way of Satan whisper shall evil deeds be done through the non believers and deceivers.
Prime example is the war on Iraq. The west draw up self claim analyze of Iraq WMD that can be fire within 45mins, showed clips of WMD, even to the extent of creating a 3D image of mobile WMD, to show cause of concern Iraq have against neighboring countries specially to Israel, all European countries and America. The western fault ideologist went out of the way by fueling the same treat to the whole of Asia and inflicting their western treat by deceiving word of “You are with us or against us”.
Five year on, No WMD had been found, western admission of fault analyze of Iraq WMD, killed the only man who had manage to separate the two Iraqi tribes and keep away the Kurdish from his people. Recent article is most disturbing as it had show no proof Saddam Hussein had any link with the Al Qaeda except for being another Arab whom the western try to deceive.
Five years on, no apology is being surrendered out by Western and Asian countries that had support the war in Iraq. Sighting that without them, the flow of democracy will not be in place. The only thing flowing out of Iraq is oil for the west. Soon after the oil is diminishing, the Iraqi and Arab nation will wake up asking themselves, what had hit them?
Under one Heaven. Only with a strong leader can China be united during the Qin dynasty. Although the emperor is not famous for his down play manner, those who understand his ways, will realize what he need to do and rule the country under one Heaven.
This is why we all should be aware of what modernization and globalization bring along. God is most merciful and most gracious. To make live better for all God’s subject, those who ask shall be given. When it is given, do it in the name of good and with God blessing. End day we all shall be called upon for our time and ways we have had chosen to live our life.
To nurture good, is to is to love and respect each other, but
“In the Name of God, the Infinitely Compassionate, Most Merciful”
“All praise is God’s, The Sustainer of all worlds”
“The Infinitely Compassionate and Most Merciful”
“Sovereign of the Day of Reckoning”
“You alone do we worship, And You alone do we ask for help”
“Guide us on the straight path”
“The path of those who have received Your favor, not the path of those who have earned Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray”
Some people need to understand the concept of paragraphs. I lost interest in the above post after 2 sentences.
You’re not missing much from the 1st of the above 2 comments, Danial. Just some weird troll calling Allah Satan and blah blah blah “I hate Arabs.”
I have no idea what Geert Wilders is trying to pull off with this stunt, I mean if the majority of Dutch people agree that Islam is a threat to Dutch freedom of speech and way of life, wouldn’t his party be a majority in parliament??
Why is he so angry about extremist islamic clerks calling for extreme measures under the cloak of Islam, don’t they have the right for freedom of speech as well like him. If they preach in a mosque, Geert preaches over the internet. Maybe it would have been wiser to engage in a dialogue with them rather than just blaming Islam for everything bad in the world. Geert is very shallow minded indeed, no wonder he is a minority in his own country. Democracy really works!
may i ask a ‘racist’ and ‘vulgar’ question worthy of censorship?
what is the major differences between “Fitna” and what Kareem was writing in his blog?
why no support for Geert Wilder by the Moslems who support Kareem? or will we see soon a call for mass support mails to be sent to the Hague?
Wilder and Kareem are a world apart. Not everyone who criticizes Islam does so in the same manner and due to similar circumstances.
Kareem has first hand, traumatic experiences with the religion and has been silenced and abused on many occasions. Wilder doesn’t and he seems to be criticizing Islam only due to his Xenophobia and fear of Muslims. I don’t see him being fired from work or arrested, like Kareem was expelled from University, and arrested twice, as well as experiencing attacks and abandonment from his family merely because of his views (both political and religious.) Kareem also is sentenced to one full year in prison merely because he insulted the President, calling him a “dictator” (I’m sure the irony in this escaped Mubarak’s mind.) That is wrong and is an abuse of human rights. Wilder never experienced such a thing, and so why should we support him? Just because he criticized Islam? Doesn’t make sense. Support comes if something happens to him due to his criticism. This is why I think you totally miss the point of the Free Kareem campaign. He is not just a critic of Islam, but a victim of major human rights abuses.
Secondly, Kareem doesn’t hate nor advocates the hatred against Muslims. His friends are Muslims, and I consider him my friend too, and as a Muslim he had nothing but respect for me and my personal beliefs. Many of his other friends who visit him are devout Muslims, most wearing hijab, and he also trusts them and has respect for them. Wilders doesn’t, he considers all Muslims to be a threat and enemies to his country and to Europe in general. He does in fact hate Muslims and he abuses his right to free speech (even though he is entitled to it) for the sake of abusing other people’s human rights (limiting their religion, and attempting to limit immigration of Muslims into Europe, as well as discouraging European converts.) Again, Kareem never did this.
Wilder also doesn’t focus on the separation of religion from state politics. Kareem does. He spoke out against the radical politicization of Islam within Egypt and beyond. To be imprisoned for that is an abuse of human rights.
Finally, Wilder is not being attacked nor imprisoned, so why should he generate support for his hateful ideas?
The comparison just doesn’t make sense. It’s like comparing Nazism with people who criticize Israeli foreign policy. Irrelevant and ill-informed.
The difference that Esra’a points out is a very important one, to be sure. It is one thing to criticize the political manifestation of Islam in some countries as being oppressive and extremist, and quite another to issue blanket condemnations of the religion itself.
Wilder’s film, nothing more than another crappy montage of already seen footage (obviously lifted from Utube)is racist not because it condemns Islam, but because he is obviously talking about oddly dressed brown people in his little “immigration and population graph”. There are plenty of Muslims in the world who are “white”, but I guess they’re not as much of a threat to the Dutch…
I also take offense to his “ripping out the offensive pages of the Quran”. There are plenty of nasty little rules in both the Old and New Testaments (which apparently has been shredded a few times) that most of their adherents don’t take seriously at all. Should the Jewish and Christian communities be told to edit their holy books to match current sensibilities?
On to the topic of free speech. There is currently a movement to enact laws to forbid insulting religion that many Islamic dominated countries are promoting that the whole world (well, mostly the West) should adhere to. I wholeheartedly agree in curtailing hate speech, but I wonder of this will be enforced against all those pundits that Wilders film does show.
Finally, on the topic of “Islamist” violence and threats influencing politics. The US will most probably elect Barak Obama in the next election, the most inspiring and hopeful president since Kennedy. Muslims didn’t shoot Kennedy.
There is quite enough brutal and underhanded politics in Western societies without hunting for an Islamic scapegoat. I consider right-wing zealots like Wilders and their “homeland security” ilk far more of a threat to freedom, human rights and democracy.
errmmm…..but Kareem did exactly that!
it was not like he was jailed for ‘criticizing’ the ‘radical’, ‘extremist’ and ‘backward’ interpretation of Islam by the ‘extremists’ as our vanilla news reporters said to mislead the public who didn’t have access to Kareem’s blog.
the truth is, Kareem attack Islam itself just like our Dutch good friend Geert Wilder.
i am afraid Eric that your proposed ‘very important difference’ doesn’t even exist in this case.
and Esr’a
and where exactly did Geert Wilder advocated hatred against Muslims? before the launch of the movie he said that his problem is with Islam not Muslims, just like our Egyptian good friend Kareem Amer.
or do you mean that by defaming Islam and its samples with such a provocative manner he is advocating hatred against the adherents of Islam?
a friendly advise, don’t destroy your creditability by answering with “yes”
Spanky, seriously? You call that a refutation?
I already thoroughly explained the difference between Gert and Kareem, summarized here:
As for your misleading argument:
Kareem attacked and questioned Islam. No big deal in that, it invites theological and historical discussions, if anything. Gert attacked Muslims, in an intentionally provocative manner, blaming them for all of Europe and USA’s atrocities. Big deal in that; it invites racism and hatred. Huge difference between both.
Kareem also got into a lot of trouble for criticizing Al Azhar scholars. You seem to overlook the fact that he got one full year for criticizing the president, which, for anyone who advocates free speech, is very deserving of public condemnation and support.
Did you even see the film?
What do you think he meant by playing with the percentage of incoming Muslims to Europe, that they are good people with different beliefs whom he doesn’t hate, and whom should be respected? It is fear-mongering. There is not a single decent message in the whole film. Propaganda. I explain the difference further in this post.
Finally, Gert undoubtedly has a hatred for Muslims. He fears them and wants them out of Europe. Every shred of his film and his statements point in that direction. You don’t make a film about how awful and terrorist-ridden Jews are and then claim “I am not an anti-Semite.” It’s illogical. Gert stated the equivalence of that.
As for your last statement, sorry, but I don’t take advise from trolling homophobes.
Spanky, as usual, doesn’t make sense.
Kareem got imprisoned for his views. That warrants support.
As long as Geert maintains his right to free speech, which he does, then why exactly should that warrant support? He still has his freedom to say these things, as stupid as they are. Kareem doesn’t have the freedom to say these things, even if they are equally stupid. Unlike Geert, Kareem’s freedom of speech was forcibly taken away from him, and that’s why he deserves support.
Did Esra’a or anyone else here say that Geert should be silenced? I don’t recall reading anywhere here that he should be imprisoned for his beliefs. I see no hypocrisies, just a few people practicing their own right to free speech by articulating a reaction to Geert’s film.
Your comparison is therefore based on nothing but confusion. Know the subject of your comparisons very well before comparing two entirely different situations. One critic of Islam is roaming his country freely while the other is behind bars, even if there were similarities between what they said.
Geert has free speech, fine. People are condemning him but not silencing him, that’s also fine, and also within the context of free speech. This is democracy in action.
Kareem doesn’t have the right to free speech, he was censored, tortured, and imprisoned. So we should fight for his human rights, the same rights that Geert enjoys. Both critics deserve it. Or will you admit your own hypocrisy by stating that Geert does deserve his rights while Kareem doesn’t?
I guess Geert was a proponent of Serbian ethnic cleansing against Muslims in the Balkans.
I wouldn’t worry too much about Spanky, because he doesn’t seem to be too much of a reader.
He seemed to have missed (maybe intentionally?) this integral disclaimer of the Free Kareem campaign:
Yup, not comparable to Wilders, who’s still free and continues to practice his right to free speech, why should that invite support? It doesn’t.
Now, if he gets shot or imprisoned, only then would the situation be comparable to Kareem’s and would thus win the support of the Free Kareem Coalition under similar circumstances.
Until then, Wilders doesn’t deserve any support. Just a xenophobic troll with too much time on his hands, and horrible video editing skills.
Nasser, what does Saddam have to do with this?
What, you actually believe that is a good thing?
It is a mistake to think that Mr. Wilders is free. He lives under police protection, can’t sleep in his own bed and is in constant danger of assassination. It seems that Kareem is rather comfortable in comparison.
You got to be kidding me… Kareem is beaten and tortured almost every day and he could loose his life any time and he doesn’t have any protection like this Wilders guy.
Wake up from your little dream world please.
Eva, you are obviously incredibly ignorant when it comes to Kareem’s case. This innocent 23 year old blogger was tortured by both prison inmates and guards and has been suffering in prison under very poor conditions for over a year now, and has also been abandoned by many of his friends and his own family. His father called for his death until he repents and takes back his beliefs. You think that is “rather comfortable” in comparison? To be sentenced to 4 years in prison simply because of blog posts?
What an ignorant, shallow remark. I’m disgusted. Urgh, the things people say for attention!
Whether you like it or not, Wilders is a free man. Most politicians around the world have police protection. Do you ever see presidents walking around without being surrounded by hundreds of guards? No, would you claim that they too are “imprisoned” in your twisted little defintion of who is free and who isn’t?
Common sense is lost on people these days. Have some decency.
And by the way:
Hmm, are we supposed to sympathize with this?
BIG DEAL. Activists, politicians, film-makers, and bloggers in the Middle East, both Muslims and members of other religious and ethnic minorities, suffer through much worse on a daily basis, not on the 3 days that this stupid excuse for a video creates as a hype. Kareem has suffered for the majority of his life and has even escaped several attempts of serious abuse before getting arrested for the 2nd time.
Don’t you dare compare and say Wilders is going through worse when people, including our friends, are assassinated and attacked in their own homes on a daily basis all across our region. This guy has like 3 guards and people are feeling sorry for him. Cry me a freakin’ river. People as young as 9 have been assassinated for expressing their beliefs in the Middle East. I don’t see you shredding tears for them. Why, are Muslims not worth your concern?
What kind of bubble are you living in that you think 3 guards is comparable to an abusive Egyptian prison where people barely come out sane or even alive?
Disgusting.
The biggest threat to Islam is not a dutch man with a bad hairdo, the biggest threat to Islam is the violent muslims who threatened the moviemaker and the staff at liveleak for simply hosting the video
Until these violent idiots are subdued, you will always see this sort of reaction from extremist europeans/americans
As long as humans are on this planet, violent people from all religion will exist.
Not gona happen and it’s not practical.
This Wilders guy advocates ripping of parts of the Quran. He advocates that his country only allow Western immigrants into his country. This guy seems like your regular book burning nazi. Keep supporting him, shows how much of a racist prick you are.
Why is it that every critic of Islam is accused of being a “racist”? Islam is not race specific, it is a political ideology that recruits from all races and nationalities.
Wilder’s film quotes from the Qur’an and features Islamic “clerics” using the Qur’an to justify violence against the infidel, non-believer or kuffar. His offense - calling like it is.
…Eva, you are obviously incredibly ignorant when it comes to Kareem’s case. This innocent 23 year old blogger was tortured by both prison inmates and guards and has been suffering in prison under very poor conditions for over a year now…
I translated Kareem’s letter from prison for a Czech website. He was understandably upset that he had to live among common law criminals but mentioned nothing about torture. I this is true, I’m sorry. That prison conditions are harsh in Egypt and elsewhere in the Middle East is common knowledge. That Muslims are killed by their own fanatics is also well known. I don’t see how can anyone blame Geert Wilders for not wanting his country overrun by Middle East customs. After all, when it comes to insulting Islam, he didn’t say half of what Kareem said. If you are fighting against obscurantism and injustice, you can’t take sides along the religion divide. If you agree with Kareem, you must also agree with Wilders. Both exposed the ugly face of Islam. Had Wilders lived in Egypt, he would now be in Kareem’s place. Kindly chew on this for a while before you call me names.
You are mixing up the issues. Free Kareem campaign exist because Kareem is in jail for what he said, not because those who run it agree with what he said. The campaign exist to support his rights to free speech that was taken away from him. No one has silenced Wilders, Wilders is not in prison. Wilders is not being tortured for what he said. SIGH… get this through to your thick head before you make any more annoying comments.
No they didn’t.
Of course Wilders would have been in Kareems place if he had lived in Egypt. What part about the below quote did you not understand?
Kindly read what is written before making another idiotic comment.
Eva, like Spanky, has reading comprehension problems when it comes to the Free Kareem Coalition and the purpose of it, and failed to read the rest of the comments concerning this. Not at all shocking, considering the fact that she thinks walking with full protection in the wonders of Europe is the same thing as being stranded in an Egyptian prison beaten senseless by guards and inmates.
What is wrong with people who comment on the Free Kareem campaign without having read the “about” section of it and the mission of the website, other than securing his release? Are people really content with just running around making baseless claims about other campaigns relying only on the voices in their heads?
Your comments are infuriatingly ignorant. Read stuff, especially the Free Kareem campaign, before you make any further comments.
Newsflash: Kareem wrote over 6 letters from prison. His torture took place in November and was covered here.
Comparing his experiences with Wilders’ is incredibly insulting.
Since I’m so dense I beg you to explain this: Kareem, because he is where he is (in Egyptian prison) has a right to free speech. Wilders, who is not in prison (at least not yet) doesn’t. Did I get it right?
Not every critic, just overwhelmingly shallow ones. Eric already explained this by saying:
No! WHY CAN’T YOU READ THE COMMENTS!
Please scroll up and read my comments that were addressed to Spanky before I shoot myself right here and now.
If hating Islam is what it takes to create a fanclub in Europe then I’m game. I’ll just write a book and win myself a few extra friends, and maybe create a MySpace account to state how many people want to kill me, maybe even a YouTube video of me crying and clutching to the bedsheets while asking people to leave me alone. I’ve always wanted this much attention. I guess all I have to do to get it is start visibly hating Islam. Free publicity has never been easier before this.
Dear Esra’a, I would hate to be responsible for your premature death. I think I got my answer in this interesting tidbit:
…Now, if he gets shot or imprisoned, only then would the situation be comparable to Kareem’s and would thus win the support of the Free Kareem Coalition under similar circumstances…
I’ll get back to you when he’s imprisoned, shot or beheaded. Until then, no sympathy. Cheers!
Sigh. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Let me make it painfully easy for you to understand the simplest concept in this thread:
In Murad’s words-
Moreoever, did you miss the part of my comment where I said we support Geert’s RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH, which he fully has (and thus doesn’t require FIGHTING FOR) but disagree with his message and its intent?
I think I will continue using caps, to emphasize certain words, which you love ignoring so you can get away with making up silly little things in your head.
There are certain narrow-minded people in this thread who think anyone who criticizes Islam deserves support (which according to you means agreeing fully with them) just for the sake of it, without understanding the difference between AGREEING WITH AN AUTHOR and SUPPORTING HIS RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH WHILE DISAGREEING FULLY WITH THE AUTHOR.
The latter is the point of the Free Kareem Coalition, and it is the point of our comments here, which you have an extremely hard time understanding (I am not sure why, we aren’t using any big words.)
If Geert is still roaming around freely, spewing hatred as much as he wishes, well, why the hell does that require support? HE HAS WHAT WE WANT KAREEM TO HAVE! FREE SPEECH, AND LIBERTY! There is no freakin’ need to campaign for him. Are you seriously that shallow to think that we should all join you in supporting him just because of his views which we disagree with (just the way we disagree with Kareem’s?) You want us all to be like you in hating Islam, and supporting THE ARGUMENT of everyone else who hates Islam? Or do you want us to just support their right to free speech, which we do, for the 100th time!?
It’s against human nature to be this incredibly thick. Please make an effort to fully comprehend these issues before attempting to write another comment. I might throw up.
I took the liberty to create a nice little case study for those having a very hard time understanding. It is more painfully obvious now than ever; if you are still confused, well, something is wrong with you.
Take a look at the image below.
Eva, I think you are confused about what Esra’a and I are trying to say.
We are not saying that Wilders doesn’t deserve his free speech or deserve to be imprisoned. Both of us share the opinion that we don’t need to fight for Wilders’ human rights because he still maintains those rights, so what is the point in actively fighting for them if his human rights remain intact? Kareem on the other hand doesn’t have these rights, this is why we are fighting for him, despite equally disagreeing with his views like we do Wilders.
She is also not saying that Wilders deserves to be put in prison, I don’t know where you get that implication from. We wish no harm for Wilders. We hope he will remain free and we hope he continues to practice his right to free speech. What is wrong with that? Nothing. What is wrong with Kareem’s comparison? It’s totally different. The Dutch government did not silence Wilders by placing him behind bars. The Egyptian government did silence Kareem by placing him behind bars.
I think Esra’a put it more simply in her image above. Maybe if she calmed down more she would have made this point before I did
Well put Murad.
I lost my patience the first few times she insisted on putting words in my mouth and making illogical comparisons, which I really do find to be shallow and insulting.
Geez, I did not ask you to fight for Wilders’s rights! Just acknowledge that this is a guy who sticks his neck out for what he believes. He can be killed every minute of every day. That’s psychological torture. So, all right, I agree that Kareem is in a worse situation. I couldn’t read all his letters because most were in arabic at the time. However, I was the one who introduced his court case to the Czech public and then followed with translation of his letter from prison. In a way I was working in tandem with you. So please stop abusing me. I admire all men and women with guts regardless of their creed. Wilders renounced his peaceful comfortable life, exposed himself to abuse even by fellow members of the Dutch government and everything possible within the limits of democracy was done to silence him for good. By European standards this is martyrdom. Not as spectacular and gruesome as the martyrdoms in the Middle East but then we are not keen on imitatig the Middle East conditions. Wilder’s effort to save Europe from the dreadful sharia law is appreciated by disillusioned people all over that continent. Nobody in his right mind wants the extreme right to take hold in Europe but the loathsome customs imported to the host countries (terror, honor killings, underage forced marriages and other garbage) must not take root in our cultural landscape. If no one except Geert Wilders want to lift a hand to clean this appaling mess, then I must stand by this right winger and support his free speech.
It’s hilarious the way you are trying to win pity for this guy. Why does he need our pity? People are suffering through worse for expressing their beliefs, Kareem is just one of them. Others have been hanged or burned alive for speaking out. What do you call such suffering? A fun walk in the park?
No one stopped Wilders from expressing his opinion. Why you bring that up is irrelevant. People all over the world, especially in the Middle East, jump on our throats for bringing up issues as moderate Islam, homosexuality, rape, women’s rights. People get arrested and tortured, if not killed, for these things. Don’t compare it to Wilders! It’s an insult to everyone else who has had to suffer in the name of free speech. He is not suffering. He’s just troubled due to heaps of criticism - THAT IS DEMOCRACY, and doesn’t deserve sympathy. People speak out, they get criticized. This is what happened. Nothing more.
Really? Big deal. More than half of the writers here, from Saudi, Iran, from Pakistan and elsewhere, stick their heads out and can also be killed every minute of every day for just writing the things they do on this blog and on their own blogs. I don’t see you expressing sympathy for them or expressing your outrage with the situation. Why?
One big mouth in Europe runs around saying “islam sucks lol” and suddenly you feel sorry and are in tears. Are you at all familiar with what happens to people who express political, religious, or any other sorts of beliefs in Russia? Uzbekistan? Pakistan? China? Libya? Yemen, et al? Do you understand what they go through? I’m sure you don’t. Wilders’ situation doesn’t even compare!
You expect us to have pity for this guy because he’s walking around fully protected in the wonderful atmosphere of Europe?
Unbelievable!
So please, stop trying to win our sympathy, when our own friends and families are suffering through things that are unimaginable by both you and our free little nose-picker, Wilders.
Great! Do that! Fight any honor crimes or any “Islamisation” of Europe! We support his and your right to free speech too! Just don’t try and shove it down our throats and make it sound like he’s going through torture when the guy, really, is having a blast in comparison to millions of people worldwide. Comparing his “torture” (and I can’t believe you even call it that, it’s an abuse of the word) is insulting to what others really have to go through in our region and in countries such as China, Indonesia, and many others.
You won’t find pity here. Trust me. So, stop trying. There’s no reason why we or anyone else should visibly campaign for a guy who has his human rights and freedom which millions of others are dying for. He has them, he took advantage of them, perfect. We took advantage of ours too by criticizing him. That’s democracy.
@Esra’a that was very, very well put.
Dear Eva,
I am going to hang myself.
Good bye cruel world.
Dear Editor and readers,
I have learnt with indignation about the”Fitna”, the anti-Islamic film of the right-wing Dutch politician, Mr G. Wilders
The film is to be seen on http://www.youtube.com
Warning: Shocking images
As to be expected from the political views of Mr Wilders, the film is giving a onesided and negative image of the Islam, which is hateprovoking and discriminative [1]
To legitimize his point of view, Mr Wilders is quoting some Qurantexts, which are used out of their context.
Also he is referring to the terroristic attacks of WTC and Madrid, which have been committed by individuals and organisations, who are using the religion for their own political purposes
Typical for his strand of thought is also the fact, that he doesn’t refer to the political causes regarding those attacks
An analysis:
Religions:
The fundaments of Islam, as of Christianity and Judaism, are based on the God of Love, peace and human rights
However, through the centuries, politicians, religious leaders and military have used the religion for their own political and power aims
I don’t have to mention the Pope Urbanus II, the initiator of the Crusades, who broke with the fundamental principle pf Christianity by mentioning, that it was no sin to till ”infidels” [2]
I presume also, that you’ll be familiar with the massacres of the Jewish and muslim inhabitants of Palestine, by the so-called Crusader-knights, all in the name of the ”christian faith”
Spoken about fanatism
Also need to be mentioned the Spanish Inquisition, which slaughtered thousands of Jews and muslims and during the Reformation, the socalled protestant ”heretics”
Every religion knows its religious fanatics
Stigmatising of the Islam:
Typical for Wilders is his onesided and discriminative approach of the Islam.
Not only he is making no distinction between the great scala of muslims, from ”moderate” untill ”extreme”, his selective use of Qurantexts and his denial of the use of similar texts in the Old Testimony and the Torah
Example of a horrible story of the Old Testimony is the genocide on the Amelecites [a nation, which waged war with the Israel from the time of King Saul], which would have taken place ”on the command of God” [3]
That this horrible old story has its consequences in this time, shows the existence of a Jewish religious fanatical group, the Gush Emunim [which means, the Blocj of Believers], who put several years ago an advertisement in the Haaretz, with a summon to slaughter all Palestinians, after the example of the Amelecites [4]
Religious fanatism:
Example by ALL religions
The dangerous character of ”Fitna” is not only the onesided quotes out of the Quran, but also the suggestion, that all muslims were religious fanatics
First, that is a very small group
Secondly, as being mentioned already, there are also ”christian” or ”Jewish” fanatics
I mentioned already the Gush Emunim, who are also present under the religious fanatical Jewish settlers, especially at Hebron, who are terrorising the occupied Palestinian population [5]
In the USA, the ”christian” fundamentalists can be mentioned, who have assaulted the abortus clinics, especially in the nineties
The Netherlands:
Also in the Netherlands, religious fanatism existed, especially in the sixties, when IN THE DUTCH PARLIAMENT, a Mr van C Dis [of course NOT the writer A van Dis!], being member of parliament of a fundamental Dutch ”christian” party, the SGP, defended the South African apartheid, by stating that negroes were inferior, being cursed as ‘’sons of Cham” on the ground of an old misinterpreted Old Testamentical Story
Yes readers, the Netherlands of the sixties! [6]
Terroristic attacks and the political causes:
WTC and Madrid
In ”Fitna” Mr Wilders is referring to the images of the WTC and Madrid attacks
Of course the attacks were illegal and horrible, being military attacks on civilians, but it is demagogical to lay the guilt upon a specific religion
All religions are based on human rights and love
However, the interpretation of men is human work and stems from the own choice, for which only human beings are responsible
Causes:
Further Mr Wilders is denying here the political causes of the terroristic attacks, which stem from the political-military British-American behaviour in the Middle East
The WTC attacks were a reaction on the American military attack on Iraq, with as humanitarian result thousands of civilian death, because of the use of clusterbombs and depleted uranium, which sickened also a great number of American soldiers [7]
And not to be mentioned the UN sanctions against Iraq, which especially have hurted the elderly people and the children
Because of lack of medicines, more than 500.000 Iraqi children has died
The Madrid attacks were a reaction on the Spanish political and military support for the illegal second American attack on Iraq
As in the first attack and Afghanistan, thousands of civilians have died because of the use of clusterbombs and depleted uranium
WHERE IN THE WILDERSFILM CORPSES ARE SHOWN FROM THOSE CIVILIAN VICTIMS, THE DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN BECAUSE OF THE UN SANCTIONS AND THE TORTURED PRISONERS IN GUANTANAMO BAY, ABU GRAIBH, BAGHRAM AND OTHER AMERICAN PRISONCAMPS [8]
IT IS NO WONDER, ONE WILL NOT SEE THOSE PICTURES, SINCE MR WILDERS HIMSELF IS PLEADING FOR A DUTCH GUANTANAMO BAY FOR TERRORSUSPECTS
SINCE MR WILDERS IS OF THE OPINION, THAT ASYLUMSEEKERS SHOULD NOT GET MEDICAL CARE, EXCEPT WHEN THERE DIRECT LIFE IS AT STAKE
Also it is to be mentioned, that those attacks, HOWEVER HORRIBLE, are a reaction on the structural American political and military support for the 40 years long Israeli occupation of the Palestinian terrirories [9]
Mohammed cartoon:
As well at the beginning as the end of ”Fitna” one of the notorious Danish Muhammed cartoons are dispayed, by which the for the muslims holy Profet is being imaged with a bomb in his turban
Again, yet apart from the insult to the Profet Muhammed, that association, that all muslims are terrorists
Therefore it is to be applauded, that as well the Dutch prime-minister mr Balkenende, as the EU, the UN Sectretary General, as the mayor of Amsterdam, mr Cohen, have rejected this film sharply
With all due respect for a number of Dutch muslims, who were relieved about the relatively not extreme character of the film [there was the fear of tearing or burning the Quran], the film IS EXTREME, HOWEVER
It is stigmatising, hateprovoking and discriminative
Again I wholeheartedly support the statements the Srs H de Winter, E van Thijn and rabbi Soetendorp, that the points of view of Mr Wilders have comparisons with the rising anti-semitism from the thirty years in nazi-Germany [10]
From their Jewish background, they can feel, better then the average Dutchman [of course not to be named those, who are resisting against Wilders] the danger of those hateprovoking points of view
Epilogue:
Every military violence or torture against civilian people, hostages or prisoners of war is a war-crime, despite whether it is done by a regular army or a resistence group
But war-crimes, which are inspired by religion, take place under each religion, whether christian, jewish or muslim
Regarding that I want to recommend the film of the AEL Belgium [11]
it is called ”Al Mouftinoun” and also seen on http://www.youtube.com
Warning: shocking images
Of course everyone can form his own opinion about the film, but it represents the other side of the story
Down with racism, anti-semitism and xenofobism
At the end of the day, we are all people
There is only ONE race, the human race
Kind greetings
Astrid Essed
Amsterdam
The Netherlands
NOTES:
[1]
Article about the political views of Mr Wilders
http://quebec.indymedia.org/en/node/27273
[2]
non-believers in Christianity, in casu muslims
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#Siege_of_Jerusalem
[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
[4]
http://www.cactus48.com/fundamentalism.html
[5]
http://www.btselem.org/English/
http://www.btselem.org/English/Hebron/
[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham
http://www.helium.com/items/367210-bibles-blacks-cursed-godmany
[7]
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/clusters/index.htm
[8]
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/27/usint10545.htm
[9]
http://www.btselem.org/English/
[10]
Mr H de Winter is a Dutch filmmaker and an initiator of a Different Jewish Voice, a critical Jewish organisation, regarding Israel
See also:
http://www.eajg.nl/uploaded/Mission_Statement_EAJG_English.pdf
Mr H de Winter should not to be confused with the Dutch well known writer, Mr L de Winter, who is a fanatical Israeladherent and a notorious muslim-basher
Mr Cohen is the mayor of Amsterdam
Mr rabbi Soetendorp is a very respected Dutch Jewish liberal rabbi
[11]
http://www.arabeuropean.org/index.php
No one can ax an idology as widespread, as settled and as deeply rooted as a Religion. There are ways of interpreting its messages in a moderare way and practicing what gives a religion a good name. Well people who are not concenred with a religion are not concerned with its name and reputation, but here, I guess if a religion is insulted, misjudged, misinterpreted, practiced in a wrong way.. the followers of the same religion should help to give it a fresh look, help it come clear with the accusations, if what is said about it is wrong. Islam is not the only religion targetted, religions in general, they are targetted today and that is because of how the religion is practiced. It is not wise to try to take a religion away from its followers. People identify themselves with their religion, how would one wish to take some one’s identity away from him/ her? There should be a wise, peaceful and G-dly way of demonstrating religious rituals. Better to stop blaming religion for all our wrongdoings, trying to make up for our personal shortcomings instead of laying the blame on religions, which in essence are nothing but different way people have adopted to communicate with what Man believes is beyond material. By the way, people with ugly minds fopcus on ugly things, people with fresh minds focus on what is beautiful, or could potentially be good, and many things are Potentially Good, religion has its own very promising potentials that could really help the stupid problems we are all facing. A wise man from Yemen ( I refrain from talking about his religion) once called religions different remedies for the pains of different grroups of people in the time and place they lived.
So is Captain Hook, aka Abu Hamza al-Masri, but you won’t find me sympathetic to him.
So why should I be sympathetic to Wilders?
I have no tolerance for hate-filled fanatics, be they Western or Islamic.
…So is Captain Hook, aka Abu Hamza al-Masri, but you won’t find me sympathetic to him…
Oh yes, there are hundreds of bloodthirsty Christians sharpening their knives to do him in a la Theo van Gogh. Oops, Theo van Gogh was living in Europe where he could exercise his free speech and therefore did not suffer enough.
…We support his and your right to free speech too!…
Well, thank you! That’s all I wanted to hear. To me this debate is not a contest about who suffers more. Obviously, you do and I willingly admit that. So please calm down, don’t shoot yourselves, don’t hang yourselves. I wouldn’t want to have that on my conscience.
Good bye and all the best!