Ignorance over the issue of Christian persecution in the Middle East
I always get very ignorant letters, many hateful, which I don’t mind. I find it fun to reply to those who hate and especially to those whose hatred has moved them to close their eyes to reality and turn other people’s tragedy into a political benefit for themselves. What’s also fascinating is that everyone who reads my columns which criticize Israeli government policies assumes I must be a Muslim. (By the way, these same ignorant people who read my columns that ALSO criticize Hamas and Palestinian and Arab and Islamic government policies, always fail to mention that!)
Here’s one such letter from a writer based in France, followed by my response (Every letter written to me is public, by the way, since I am a journalist and I write about public issues.):
—–Original Message—–
From: Jean-LouisTaffarelli [mailto:………]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 3:46 AM
To: rayhanania@comcast.net
Subject: Facebook and Bethlehem
Dear Mr Hanania,
I just read your article about Facebook, thinking you were a muslim.
Now reading another of your articles I discover you are a christian.
You are most certainly aware of the fact that the christian population of Bethlehem is down to ten thousand, from about sixty thousand when the Palestinian Authority took over.
The reason being harassment and insecurity.
And this in spite of the fact that most christians in Israel side with the Palestinians.
Remember the occupation and looting of the Nativity Basilica for instance.
Just imagine the few christians in Saudi Arabia occupying the Kaaba to protest the interdiction to celebrate a christian ceremony.
What should we make of all this ? As a christian, if I lived in the Middle East I would certainly feel more comfortable in Israel than anywhere else.
Very sincerely Yours
Jean-Louis Taffarelli (France)
Dear Jean-Louis:
As a Christian, I am shocked and disgusted that you would abandon the plight of your fellow Christians in Bethlehem. In fact, as I read your email, I realized how ignorant you are about the facts and how political and hateful you must be. My relatives live in Bethlehem and I can tell you that the greatest oppression they face is not from the Muslims but from the Israeli government and the illegal, and brutal Israeli military occupation that is stealing their christian lands, denying them travel, destroying their homes and even killing their family members.
Israel says it doesn’t “intentionally” kill civilians but has “unintentionally” killed hundreds of civilians in the past two months in Gaza claiming they are trying to murder alleged terrorists — alleged in that they have never been accused, tried or convicted of crimes, nor where they killed in the act of a crime. But who cares about the laws, when you hate Muslims, correct?
Then there are my Christian relatives in Nazareth who are oppressed by Israel even more. Their Israeli Citizen ID Cards have special numbers on them so that the Israeli police will know immediately that they are Christian and NOT Jewish. They are routinely denied health services and many other state services, because they are not Jewish. Their land has been taken also, they are restricted on what they can own, build and farm.
And finally, most of my Christian relatives are denied access to East Jerusalem’s Holy Sites because they are NOT Jewish. Israel says Jerusalem is an open city. Open for whom? The Israeli government is worse than the Jordanian Government ever was, which restricted entrance to East Jerusalem to anyone with an Israeli passport but allowed Jews to enter Jerusalem if they did so from some other country than Israel. Yet Jordan is vilified but Israel’s government is not?
You are pathetic. And you are certainly not a Christian.
Thanks for writing
Ray Hanania
A PS to everyone to continue this topic further:
It is a fact that Christians are oppressed in the Islamic World. Muslims discriminate against Christian Arabs all the time, in Palestine and even in the United States. Christians are also equally persecuted by Muslims living int he United States. They are targeted and harassed by organizations like CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations) excluded by groups like the IAP (Islamic Association for Palestine), and slandered by dozens of other Muslim American groups all the time.
Worse, Muslim Americans also boycott, blacklist and slander Christian Arabs who challenge their political views. In other words, if you agree with the Muslims, they love you and invite you to speak at their conferences. But when you question their policies and challenge their hypocrisies, they become worse fanatics against you than anyone.
And yes, Christian Arabs are discriminated against in Palestine. They have their churches burned down in the Gaza Strip and in Nablus and elsewhere when morons in the Islamic world protest the posting of cartoons that the Christian Arabs had nothing to do with. They are murdered and targeted as they were on the streets of Iraq, as was the Archbishop near Baghdad recently.
So, Jean and the rest, yes, there are issues. but don’t be a naive, ignorant fool and think that you can claim discrimination takes place by one group and pretend it doesn’t take place by others. Jean’s letter above would have made some sense if Jean had addressed the issue with PRINCIPLE. Yes, principle. That means when the Israeli Government murders a civilian Palestinian, Palestinians must denounce it. And when the Palestinian terrorist organization Hamas murders a civilian Israeli, Palestinians must denounce that. PRINCIPLE ALSO MEANS that when the Israeli government murders a civilian Palestinians, Israelis should stop setting aside morality and principle, and they SHOULD DENOUNCE THAT TOO and stop making stupid excuses that “Israel doesn’t intentionally murder Palestinian civilians.”
The extremism among the Islamic fanatics, the extremism among the Israeli fanatics and the extremism from non-Arabs and non-Jews in France disgust me, and I am not going to stop writing about it at all.
Ray Hanania
www.RadioChicagoland.com
www.ArabWritersGroup.com
Since we are on the subject of hate, there at least one million Jews who were kicked out of their Arab home land since Israel was created 60 years ago. I was one of those Jews. Why don’t you as a journalist comment on our plight. As you know, most of them migrated to Israel after we lost most everything. I dare you to write truthful story.
It reminds me of how Muslim blogger Tariq Nelson gets branded a heretic for speaking out on the wrongdoings of many Muslims, and he isn’t going to quite either.
Good post Ray.
Joseph Darwish, why don’t I see Jews talk about other genocides, why must they always talk about theirs?
Hope you get what I just wrote, or else…
“Israel says it doesn’t “intentionally” kill civilians but has “unintentionally” killed hundreds of civilians in the past two months in Gaza claiming they are trying to murder alleged terrorists….”
…who have been shooting barrages of rockets night and day at civilian populations in Israel. And (when they aim badly) hitting civilian populations in Gaza. And who often choose to carry out their acts from areas populated by civilians, for the very reason that this will either 1) limit Israeli response or 2) result in civilian deaths if Israel does respond.
You seemed to have inadvertently left out a critical part of the story. Allow me to fill in a blank or two here.
” Open for whom? The Israeli government is worse than the Jordanian Government ever was, which restricted entrance to East Jerusalem to anyone with an Israeli passport but allowed Jews to enter Jerusalem if they did so from some other country than Israel”
Hmmm…I just want to make sure that I am following:
Jordan did not allow Israelis to enter East Jerusalem, unless they happened to be Israelis with dual citizenship and another passport. But Jews from other countries could visit East Jerusalem.
And Christians from other countries now cannot visit East Jerusalem?
At worst, we are no worse than the Jordanians. Given that the Christians and Muslims are still living in East J’lem, and have not been kicked out (as happened to the Jews in 1948), we are arguably better.
If you could provide more information on limitations on Christian Arab access to their holy sites, I would appreciate it. My understanding (based partially on time spent in the Old City) is that there is a significant Christian Arab population in East Jerusalem–these holy sites would be their neighborhood churches.
Sincerely,
Gila Weiss
” Jina Wrote:
Joseph Darwish, why don’t I see Jews talk about other genocides, why must they always talk about theirs?”
I don’t known why you think this Jina. For example, many Jews are active in fighting against the genocide in Darfur. In 2006 a number of Jews visited Rwanda to help commemorate the Rwandan genocide. http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/issues/rwanda/rwanda.html
Please do some research before you make such a broad generalization.
Many Israeli Jews are also active in fighting the genocide in Darfur. For that matter, it bears pointing out that refugees from Sudan are trying to make it…to Israel.
He’s not saying they don’t acknowledge other genocides.
He’s saying they don’t actively talk about them half as much as most Jews talk about their own.
And frankly, I share that viewpoint.
Because we all know how concerned Arab nations/Palestinians are with the Darfur genocide.
If “genocide” is the buzzword, how about the tendency of the Palestinians to cry “genocide” where none exists? (Probably at the expense of those actually experiencing it, like the Sudanese).
No, Jews and Israelis are not perfect, but in this, I believe that we hold our own and more against any of our peers. In between the crying for our own, we do for others.
And again–the Sudanese are trying to get OUT of Muslim Arab countries and into a Jewish one. That does say something.
Another point in respect to the original post, there are also limitations on non-Muslims who wish to visit the Dome of the Rock. I, as a Jewish Israeli, probably cannot visit. These limitations are placed by the Waqf. Are these okay?
Oh God, here we go again with the superiority complex.
Can the Palestinians even afford to be? A chunk of them don’t even have electricity to keep in touch with the outside world. I trust that if they knew the extent of what is going on, yes, they would be concerned. I hate the fact that you are trying to make them sound immoral and uncaring, it’s the furthest thing from the truth. You are obviously so disrespectful towards them and unappreciative of any effort they make. And not all Jews give a damn about other genocides, a handful doesn’t represent the entire faith or the Israeli people in general. I rarely come across Jews who at length discuss genocides other than their own. Instead many use it to justify violence and abuse. It makes me sick that no one can as much as criticize Israel without it falling under the banner of “anti-Semiticism,” and “oh they want to kill us all.”
Jews in the Middle East always say they are the most discriminated against minority, which is untrue. The Baha’is go through much worse, and as an ethnicity, so do the Kurds. Do you give a crap? I don’t see you talking about them.
Also, are you really concerned just to brag about your concern and show others how much you care, or do you honestly, sincerely care about these genocides from your heart? Is it your love for humanity or your love for PR? Makes me wonder. I don’t see anyone else posting links to “Muslims caring about other genocides, and here’s proof.” It’s really quite silly that you are competing for “who cares more.”
You shouldn’t be doing any of this as a Jew, you should be doing it out of your love for humanity. Unfortunately this seems to be far from the case here. Instead we see a case of “we are better and here’s why.” I’m revolted.
Uhm, hello? Because Israel has been such a kind recipient to them? How many African refugees have “disappeared” since Israel sent them back to Egypt which just shoots the incoming ones? According to my friend Ben from Jerusalem (read my latest post here) Israel has been doing some shooting of their own. And Ben is a Jew by the way, so don’t give me that “omg, anti-Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda!”
And there are more refugees spreading across everywhere, they are just desperate to leave. I hardly think they consider Israel to be an ideal location for them. I don’t see you bragging about Egypt and how many refugees still continue to go there. Don’t you have some kind words to share about Arabs and Muslims now, even if they shoot some of these refugees, kind of like your own government does? (Or they can just of course send them to Egypt so they can do the shooting there and Israel can bask in its utter moral perfection.)
You feeling morally superior to others is really quite laughable, and pitiful in my opinion. It’s like you’re going “oh look, someone take a picture of me feeding this poor man, and consider how much us Jews care for the poor, unlike the filthy Palestinians.”
Does this really surprise you? Most groups tend to focus on their own suffering more than that of others. So I don’t know why you think Jews should be held to a higher moral standard than others. It’s lack saying all you hear Africans-Americans talk about is slavery.
Hmmmm…these are the same people who celebrate and pass out candies when Jews are murdered at a shopping center, murdered in cold blood at a school. I suspect that the same thing was done when I was bombed.
Trying to make them sound immoral and uncaring? Oh no, they do need my help with that. Hamas is doing just fine on their own.
Then be revolted–clearly that is what you are looking for. The argument was raised that Jews only talk about the holocaust. I raised the example of Jews worldwide fighting to help Darfur as a counterargument. My understanding was that this site was intended to present a space for dialogue. My apologies if I am mistaken.
I see…so now it is Israel’s fault that Egypt shoots people? Thanks, but no thanks. If Egypt is going around shooting people, they can take the heat all by their litle selves.
Interesting! The criteria for believing something written about Israel is that it be written by a Jewish Israeli? Well I’ll be! This means I can believing everything I read on Arutz Sheva and other fine far crazed-right wing blogs. Because they are written by Jewish Israelis. And to think that, up to this point, I thought I had to be discerning. Silly me! What a shame. All the fine conspiracy theories I have missed.
I will check out the article and then check out the story with a friend of mine who works with foreign workers and the refugees (that is her full-time job). She has been very involved in fighting for the rights of Sudanese refugees here in Israel and recently helped the “Bnei Darfur” organize a non-for-profit in Jerusalem to fight for the rights of refugees. I will get back with her response.
In respect to the shooting–again–I will verify the story. In respect to kind words…. when you can stop the knee-jerk bashing of Israel, and express some kind words about Israel as opposed to just demonizing it, I will of course be far more inclined to lose some of my defensive stance and be equally as gracious in respect to Israel’s neighbors.
Easy on the generalizations and pitiful racism, Gila. If you want us to say some kind things about Israel, earn it. We are not here to feed your silly propaganda. You have your own blog to do that in.
Greg,
No one says that they should, but some of them, like our friend Glia here, seriously need to stop acting like they are morally superior when quite clearly they are not (especially if they are hateful and racist.)
By the way Gila, for someone who feels so pathetically morally superior, why don’t you answer this thread and apologize for some of your country’s crimes? Or are you too proud to acknowledge the fact that there are abusive criminals amongst your own kind, too?
Of course not, you and your ilk are perfect, the rest of us are all immoral terrorists who would point and laugh at your tragedies. I’m sure you’re the only poor victim here. I am pouting for your sake. Aw.
Finally, I love the fact that you show no concern whatsoever to the Christians persecuted in the Middle East which is what this post is essentially about. Do you know that Baha’is in much of the Arab and Muslim world suffer so much more than Jews? You wouldn’t know about that, I assume you were too busy complaining about living in such poor conditions (all our fault!)
Thanks for dominating yet another thread, and making it totally irrelevant only to paint your attention-seeking self as the victim. It’s not at all typical of many Jews, right? Not at all.
Now please do us all a favor and stop making every single comment you make here about yourself and your irrelevant problems or about how much you hate the Palestinians (because making racist remarks is the equivalence of hatred, yes.) I am sick of people like you dominating the discussions when people have more problems to deal with all over the Middle East and you uncaring self-important commenters make it all about yourselves. Grow up. Get a clue about the other problems out there which are far worse than you can ever imagine to live through. For once in your life, try to give a shit about someone other than your own and try to put yourself in their shoes.
All forms of racism should invite a knee-jerk bashing and fierce criticism. I do not know why you expect to be treated any differently than anyone else in your position. I find most of your comments on this site to be very distasteful, in all honesty.
Careful Murad, if you disagree with her any further, she will claim that you are an antisemitic terrorist who wants her dead.
And then of course insist that we would all laugh at her tragic death (because let’s face it, don’t we all?)
Don’t worry though, I’m sure MEMRI and Palestine Media Watch will do a perfect job at justifying this shallow viewpoint. We just have to suffer from such hateful, racist, and typical comments on here until they too start getting bored of their own repetitive “Look at me, I am a victim. Please feel sorry for me” arguments.
Only then would we finally be able to discuss the people who are really being oppressed throughout the region, from Christians to Kurds to Baha’is, when others stop being so utterly obsessed with themselves.
Hahahahah Jews care about other genocides… only reason Darfur is on the omg list for Jews is because Muslims are killing each other or killing Christians. Rwanda… how did that go… 1 million dead in 90 days… Israel’s best friend USofA was the one who threatened to veto any move to send UN peacekeepers to stop that genocide. Or how about Israel’s creators, the British, responsible for a genocide of the Bengalis that left 12 million dead in the first 2 years of WW2 while it only took 4+ years for Nazis to kill 6+ million Jews. This doesn’t account for the other Bengali genocide by the same monsters. Of course all the Jews on this website denied that ever happened, do a search on it… you’ll find the post. Just so you know, Bengalis are from South Asia and they are brown and sometimes looks like brown Chinese and not Arab. Last Jew I talked to thought they are Arabs…
And naturally it was denied by a person who considers Arabs and Muslims to be insects who need to be “shunned by civilization” and eventually killed off. But these opinions don’t exist amongst Jews and Israelis of course, no. How dare we imply otherwise, they are God’s flawless creations and we must worship the ground they walk on, even if this ground was ever to be forcibly taken away from us.
Ohh the Jews concern for the Darfurians…
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/19/israel.darfur/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6954663.stm
Ya handed back to the same people who kills them on site from the CNN article.
These issues may not be too widely known due to Israel’s PR campaign on refugees, which American Jews have publicly condemned.
One can only wish more people within Israel reacted in this manner. Unfortunately this is not the case. Instead we get more people trying to carry out Israeli PR strategies here within our own forums.
What’s also ironic is this particular note:
Shock and awe. Seems like censorship and oppression within the Jewish community, no wonder why great Jewish authors of blogs such as ‘Jewschool’ who publicly condemn Israel’s many crimes get labeled as “self-hating” and receive death threats. High morals, you say? Please come back with a better argument. What this looks like to me is a painful case of tyranny of the majority. Allow people to criticize Israel for its crimes before you engage yourself in what is obviously a PR stunt. We criticize our own governments on a daily basis, and allow you to criticize ours, now it’s time for you to stop making shallow excuses and learn what it means to be “moral” and open-minded.
Man, you guys are disappointing. This includes the staff of the website. It’s like watching a pack of rabid hyenas. *rubs temples* I’m getting a headache…
Gila said some less than stellar points, including the holier than thou crap about about Jews and or Israelis caring about Sudan. The average Joe (in any place) probably does not care, but I would say over 90% of the people in the world fit in this category. There certainly a handful of activists, aid workers, simple citizens, etc. who care and are involved in this. Again that’s how it works in a lot of things, from politics to whatever. Greg said it best that most groups just care and, as how some other authors here mentioned, “whine” about their groups issues. Jina keeps mentioning about the Bengali genocide (I’m not trying to belittle the topic, the colonial powers were bastards), other Arab commentators about the Palestinian issue, etc, etc, etc.
Most folks probably watch TV, read a little news, see some bad images, say how bad it is, perhaps wipe away a tear, get a little angry and blow some steam and move on. Perhaps they donate a little time and charity, which makes them feel good after sipping a nice latte somewhere.
As for her bias and bigotry, well, the chick was involved in suicide bombing blast… at least what she states in her blog. With injuries still healing as a result of it. I think that would probably cause some issues. I don’t think most would necessarily try reaching out to the ‘other’ afterwards which I give kudos, but it would be better to cool off before answering like a bulldozer.
I must say the same goes for the site staff. Chill. Think. You just sound like petty 3 year old jerks when this type of rant thing goes off. Quite frankly, some of the comments on your end were also a bit bigoted.
Most folks who participate here are probably of minimally of middle class standing with relatively comfortable lives. No need to get all self righteous about the suffering of others, as most here would certainly have no clue about pain and suffering.
No one is perfect, and one can easily flip the arguments over to the others end, especially in this verbal flame war. It won’t achieve much other than finger pointing, name calling and bad vibes. Certainly not a forum for discussion and understanding.
Have a good Saturday. Cheers.
Firstly, I am the only “staff” member who commented on this thread. Secondly, I’m not very surprised at the follow-up of another tedious comment by you, Curious. Justification of utter bigotry by saying “stop acting like children.” God help me, I’m yawning.
Wow, Curious thinks we are disappointing. Let’s all go slit our faces in the bathroom.
Aww. Curious takes a shot at humor. And fails.
Newsflash: We are not here to cater to your interests. We confront others, that is the point of this website. We are not here to kiss your ass and act like your racism doesn’t bother us, because it does. You give us the moral superiority bullshit, we will react, whether you silly children like it or not.
That being said, go whine somewhere else about your headache which no one here cares about, and shove your PR down someone else’s throat.
Jina said:
Not true. In fact, I provided you with a link from a Bengali author to demonstrate that it did, in fact occur. So you created a whole jack-story in your head that turns out not to be true.
Anyway, the back-and-forth finger pointing and whining on this thread about how how much concern one feels toward “the other,” is really lame and stupid — you don’t give a crap except about yourselves … oh no, we care more that you do and we can prove it … oh no you don’t, you’re just a bunch of self-centered wannabe victims like most of your people who only want to talk about yourselves … no you are … no you are … no you are — blah! Hey, let’s all micromanage each other’s feelings, ha? I’m so glad to know that Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, and Jews don’t give a shit about others, regardless of whether it’s Christians, Darfurians, or people suffering from genocide, so I guess we better take some time, scratch our heads, and wonder what we’re all doing here. The ironic part is that MEY is working to dispel all these myths and stereotypes, yet we even find authors here perpetuating them. I have always appreciated that we function “outside the box” here at MEY, but let’s face it, that nasty little vortex of intergroup conflict and rivalry right smack in the center of “the box” keeps trying to suck us back in. Resist! We’re all entitled to be angry.
People need to learn some self control when they get hot under the collar from a rival and to be sure to direct their arguments to that individual and not to their entire group.
Matthew, you were not yet an author on this website when Howie and a few others claimed that the Bengali genocide never happened. Not only that, but Palestinians were also referred to as insects. I presume this is okay with you all.
I think there is in fact something else going on here, you also whine like a baby (and well, like the rest of us too) when someone criticizes Israel. Not only that, but you also write and say that we need more Israeli authors who say GOOD things about Israel and spread good PR, and try to have us get rid of people such as Ray or to remove articles that reflect poorly on Israel.
Sorry, but this sounds a lot to me like propaganda, and a quest for editorial control over this website which practices no level of censorship and you of all people should know that.
I refuse to swallow this pathetic racism. Not in this website, not ever. I am sick of racist bigots in all shape and form and will be proud to point it out at every opportunity in order to publicly condemn it, something so many of you do not do for the sake of your national pride and in the name of good PR. Sickening and embarrassing.
It is funny that threads such as these are flooded by comments from our Jewish and Israeli friends but Tamara’s thread which asks for the opinion of Israelis considering their country’s criminal acts has yet to be addressed. Funny, that’s all.
Iranians, Egyptians, Saudis, and other Arabs all criticize their countries consistently here. I still consider them all to be brave patriots. Israelis.. not so many criticisms on their part. But why? And why get angry when the rest of us do criticize? All Tamara was asking for in that thread is your apologies for some crimes which occurred in your name. Please leave this thread if you want what’s best for this argument and give us some hope by answering Tamara’s straight forward question.
Jina I do not appreciate your generalizations and your bigotry. The Save Darfur Coaltion includes a number of Arab and Muslim organizations. Also included in the coalition is Tikkun an organization that is often ostracized by the mainstream Jewish community because it often harshly (and justifiably) critical of Israeli policies. Furthermore, why does no one point out this bigotry which this site claims to be against.
As Esra’a said, you weren’t there when this took place. Not proper to talk when you only know half the story.
The whole thing was started by bunch of Jew’s with their ignorant comments, rest are reactions to that.
My childhood was wasted in a warzone, so thank you, try again.
Greg, the Save Darfur campaign is a laughable farce. Please do some reading on that.
Of course your own bigotry and total racism is fine, but if someone else disagrees with you, you and your ilk just want us to remove comments and other people’s content. I cannot number the amount of times that Israelis and Americans abuse the “contact” form because this and that author offended their sensitive souls, let alone excuse the fact that the latest hacker of this site was an Israeli who had sent us many alarming threats throughout this past summer. Only because we refused to remove certain authors and that we publicly disagreed with their own bigoted comments.
I don’t see you pointing that out, or apologizing on such people’s behalf. Why?
Do you agree with this behavior, as long as it’s in the good name of your reputation and ideology? Would you only protest if it went against your opinions?
Removing commenters and authors from this site just because they “hurt your feelings” is never going to happen. This is an open website, this is why you always get away with such comments. People get offended, feelings get hurt, get over it. We are here to discuss the issues. I see no reason why you should whine if no one is censoring you. You are free to talk here, the site takes pride in offering such freedom. Yet you claim to be oppressed because a few people here disagree with you. Yes, I guess that makes the whole site bigoted. What a brilliant concluding remark.
Explain which part of what I wrote was bigotry. And Save Darfu Coalition is the biggest scam I ever seen. Last time I visited that site, it had more about China than about Darfur. It seem like a big anit-China site than a save Darfurian site. And I sent them an e-mail asking them what exactly they done for Darfur about few months ago and few before that, I haven’t gotten a single response yet.
Hardly anyone within Sudan and Darfur seem to know who they are or have positive views about this initiative. I wonder where all the money they make go.
Agreed with Jina. None of my Sudanese friends have any faith or hope in “Save Darfur.” I remember one of their volunteers once e-mailed us looking for “Arabs” in the campaign in an effort to make it look more credible, perhaps to invite more donations, those millions of dollars whose locations are never clear.
Please demonstrate, Greg, the transparency in their donation system and list their notable achievements (something other than their cute “Save Darfur” shirts and mouse pads.)
And also point out the bigotry that you love to complain about so much from Jina’s comment. Do you call all disagreements “bigotry”? That’s an obvious misuse of the word.
Esra’a wrote:
Just who exactly are me and my ilk? You do not know me. Furthermore, I don’t share Gila’s views. I do not know why you feel that I do. I have never advocated for anyone or their comments to be removed from this site either.
As for The Save Darfur Coalition, I was not discussing whether or not it was effective. My point was that there are Jews who care deeply about both the rights of Palestinians and are actively involved in stopping the genocide in Darfur.
Jina: When you write that Jews are that or Jews or this, it comes across as deeply offensive to me. How would you like it if I were to write something like “ha ha Arabs caring about innocent people being murdered in terrorist attacks”.
You and your ilk means you and people who are like-minded.
But so what, really?
Because others don’t equally care about such matters? Is it a “Jew” thing to care? I see no reason to brag. Millions of others care, for the sake of humanity. It’s not inspired by or limited solely by faith or nationalities.
This is what bothered us, that Gila took advantage of your comment and made it seem as if Jews did this simply because they are morally superior to others while Arabs and Muslims are not. Read her comment:
This is offensive and is without a doubt a racist and shallow generalization.
Instead of others pointing this out, she was defended. Further adding to the offense and is what triggered our heated responses here. Then we have people like Curious rudely claiming that we reacted like “children.” It’s racism. All racism should be reacted with such an attitude that shows no tolerance for such hatred.
I don’t see you or anyone else in this thread putting Gila in her place for such a pitiful remark. I find that to be incredibly hypocritical.
If you were offended, so were we. Hence the emotional reactions that these comments triggered. Why are we not allowed to be offended at comments here? We’re not entitled to our opinions and emotions?
Well I’ll say it right now, I think what Gila said was wrong and bigoted. As seen through this site it is true that many Arabs do clearly care about the genocide in Darfur just as they care about Palestinians.
You do not know anything about my political opinions. I have posted a total of five posts on this site. I do not know why you think I support the actions of both the Israeli government and my own (the U.S.)
If you are angry at Gila that is fine, but don’t take it out on me.
I think you have brought up a good point Murad. I have posted a response to Tamara’s question.
“You and your ilk” does not suggest that I am an expert on your opinions. I believe I already implied this earlier.
It simply means people who think in the same manner that you do, and you don’t need to write a book or give a month-long speech for people to use this phrase. If I said “I love Palestine,” that’s all I need for someone to come and say “you and your ilk,” as in, other people who love Palestine. I could not imagine why you would claim that I know anything about you. God.
Greg, I generalized Jews because Gila generalized another group and claimed Jews are somehow doing something better than the other group. So I replied toward Gila’s comment. Take what I wrote under that context and don’t call me bigot because of it.
Actually, I will agree with this on some way, most Arabs to me don’t seem to not give a damn about innocent people being killed by terrorist attacks.
This website seems to be one of few who actually points the mistakes from all sides and not take sides. This is the only reason I read this website.
I see a very sad pattern on this website when Israel is put in a negative light. When someone talks not so nice things about Arabs, everyone adds to it and Israelis and Americans come here to pat the author on the back, but when crimes committed by Israel is the topic, Israelis and Israeli supporters come here and cry and call everyone anti-Semites because they don’t agree with the point of view of the article. Seen it happen in dozens of threads since I started to read this website. It doesn’t seem to be getting any better.
Also I hope you didn’t assume I am an Arab.
Okay—so now that I have been branded a rascist, traumatized, etc….I thought I would go back to the beginning of the comments and see how this all developed.
My first comments were in direct response to the post. Okay.
The next comment was in response to the whole “Holocaust” thread which started out as a comment from Jina:
(The irony here, of course, is that Joseph Darwish was not referring to the Holocaust but rather the matter of Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were expelled or otherwise forced to flee, often losing everything. In the eyes of many, this is a matter which would need to be addressed at the same time as any discussion of the Palestinian refugees—there were two groups of refugees created due to the creation of the State of Israel, and not one.)
Anyway, somehow, everything moved from the original point of the post to Darfur.
My comment here pointed out that not only are Israeli Jews trying to help the Darfurians, but many Sudanese are trying to make it here. Note that I did not say anything about anybody else; my intent was to respond to Jina’s assertion. Jina said that she does not see Jews talk about other genocides; I disagree with her, and I explained why.
My next comment—in response to Esra was very obnoxious and I apologize. My point, as I intended it, was that I believe that that the Arab leadership hijacks virtually every conference/ UN initiative/ etc and turns it into an Israel-bashing –Pro-Palestinian event…and this at the expense of those who really are experiencing genocide. However I did not think before I wrote and I let my initial flash of emotion do the writing, instead of stopping, thinking and writing intelligently. Again, my apologies.
Okay—and now onwards!
Next couple posts—Esra’a characterizes Jews as follows:
As for the first—a little experiment, using Esra’a’s words from above: “It makes me sick that no one can as much as criticize Arab countries/the Palestinians without it falling under the banner of “rascist,” and “oh they want to kill us all.”
If the above is not offensive to you, then it is okay to use it as it was used, in reference to Jews. If it is offensive, however, I believe it would be proper to ask whether using it in reference to Jews is not also offensive.
As for the second comment, please see my quote from Jina’s original comment about Jews not caring about genocides. She asked a question “why don’t Jews care about other genocides?”. I answered it “we do, and here is an example and some evidence to back it up”.
And again as for the third—I read the article you posted. Olmert made a stupid comment (he does this frequently); but where does the article note that we shot someone? I scanned Haaretz (left-wing newspaper) and did not find anything. Please provide references.
My next comment—again, I wrote when angry (never good) and was wrong to have employed sarcasm. Parts I do stand by:
The pictures of Palestinians handing out candy to celebrate the murder of civilians here revolted pretty much everyone-left wing and right.
Israel is responsible for her actions, and the Egyptians are responsible for theirs.
The fact that information comes from a Jewish Israeli does not necessarily mean that the information is credible and non-biased. For example, I purposely do not read Arutz Sheva and other far-right news sources for this very reason—they are very biased, and therefore not credible. There are, of course, left wing news sources who are equally biased in the other direction, and equally not credible. I will be upfront—the general tone towards Israel expressed in the comments to this post, and the fact that this guy clearly passes muster with Esra’a is enough to make me take him with a grain of salt. His reporting may be 100% accurate…or not.
It is much easier to be open to seeing the good in the other side when you do not feel like you are under attack. If however, you are under attack (Jews are bad, Israel is bad etc)…you stand up in defense.
As for the various references to my blog, I am surprised you would take that view from a reading of my posts. I keep my posts and my blog politics-free and in fact enforce that restriction on commenters as well. I do this for a reason. Suicide bomb and terror attacks are happening everywhere. The news media covers the attack itself-the dramatic part. But it does not end once the reporters go home. I want readers to be able to read about suicide bombings and know what it does to people. At the same time, I do not want to give the reader the opportunity to put this into a political context. My goal is that a reader who reads my blog one day, and the next day reads about a bombing in Iraq or the Philippines or India or England will make that jump, and will understand the price of what happens. I want them to be outraged. I want them to start to believe and to say “There is never any reason for a suicide bombing. This is not a political act, it is a violent one. A crime. This is not okay. This is not justifiable”.
Of course, if you have not read my blog, it might be more appropriate for you not to comment on it….
Oh, and as for my political leanings—I do not believe I have mentioned them…. Nor am I going to. And no, you do not know what they are. Patriotic Israelis and proud Jews come in all political variations.
I will not respond further on this post (just in case anyone responds to this); I think it is best for me to state my position and step aside for now. Again, my apologies for where I was rude. It honestly was not my intent to come across as rascist or bigoted.
I don’t know if I can keep up with all of this. It’s just too complicated. I’ll just go back to something simple, like peacemaking.
I think it’s both incredibly naive and impossible to claim being a “peacekeeper” if certain issues are constantly ignored. I think this is what people really misunderstand about this website, we are not here to be hippies and not talk about anything controversial at all for fear of offending others. Dialogue is hard and people get offended, I think this is a necessary step that everyone must take for the sake of understanding. To jump from war to hippy tree-huggers is just impossible and even quite lame.
I agree with the latest comment. Peace doesn’t come by ignoring issues. It comes by confronting the issues, and then finding common solutions. I see that happening here, more often than not. Idealism and naiveté won’t get you anywhere. This is reality. Live with it.
I side with Esra’a and Murad on all this — I am traveling through Ireland doing comedy with the Israeli-Palestinian COmedy Tour otherwise I would have chirpred in sooner …
As for Gila, I don’t know if as someone said she was injuredin a suicide blast … that is terrible and I am glad she is alive. But, she’s no different than the many Palestinians who have been involved in Israeli military strikes … regardless, the violence on both sides sucks …
But that’s the point missed here. It’s about PRINCIPLE. I don’t hear Gila criticizing Israeli policy. All I hear from her is her criticizing the Palestinians, and those defending her, criticizing the Palestinians. You are NOT A MODERATE and NOT SOMEONE WHO SUPPORTS PEACE if all you do is take ONE SIDE and apply principle to yourself but deny principle to the others. It’s just the facts of life. Gila should be distressed not about being the victim of a Palestinian suicide bombing but rather the violence on BOTH SIDES, Palestinian and Israeli — and please don’t give me that crap that the Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians is somehow not morally equivalent because they “don’t intentionally target civilians the way Hamas does.” Baloney.
When YOU KNOW there are civilians in a home, and you strike that home with a cluster bomb, a missile or a tank canon, you are INTENTIONALLY killing civilians.
As toJGina generalizing using the term “Jews” it’s a non-issue. They call their state a Jewish State. I don’t see any issues with her comments at all. Israelis generalize all the time. How else can we discusses Arab-Jewish relations if we don’t address Arab and Jewish issues. The issue is a distraction … move on
Peace means criticizing your own, not just the other.
But back to the topic: Christians are being persecuted … by Israel in and outside the occupied territories, and by Muslim extremists … to different degrees and on different issues and levels of live. The challenges the Christian Palestinians face is different with the Israelis and different with the Muslims. There are MANY Muslims who acknowledge these problems, but very few Israelis and Jews who acknowledge what Israeli policy is doing to the Christians as well as to the Muslims.
Ray Hanania
http://www.RadioChicagoland.com
Here I thought I was making a joke, and people are taking me more seriously than when I try to be serious.
That aside, I agree with a lot of what is being said, but guess what, all this talk, even though it is extremely important, will not bring peace. We have to find a way to move from the talking phase, to the doing phase.
It is natural to defend yourself, and to blame the other. It is unatural to blame yourself, even though as we all know, it is sometimes necessary. But it doesn’t feel right. It probably relates back to the days we lived out in the wild. We had no choice but to defend ourselves against the ravages of nature. And those ravages were made worse by the ravages we suffered at the hands of our fellow man. So the instinct to defend oneself, and one’s group, is probably hardwired into us genetically.
But we are approaching a time when it will not be enought just to be right. Even if you believe you’re right, and even if by all means of measure you are right, it is still not enough to be right. And in fact, if you keep on insisting that you are right, the natural course of events will still take you down. There are too many people out there who think they are right, and who are willing to take everyone else down with them just to make the point.
This is the time to try something else. This is the time, to get over ourselves and beyond our differences. This is the time to create realities on the ground which speak louder than words. This is the time, before time runs out, to dream the impossible and to make the impossible come true.
Am I a tree-hugging hippi? I don’t think so. I do love trees, but I’m too square to be a hippy. I was in college during the hippi days, and all I could do every weekend was go back home for a nice home-cooked meal, and a pleasant weekend with my parents. How boring is that? I can’t look at myself in the mirror.
I love the website because in certain ways it imitates the reality of the situation. We yell out at one another, bolstered by the moral outrage we feel. And sometimes we get carried away buoyed by a sense of rage. We go too far at times. We say more than we should. But at least it’s all out there in the open, and it’s still only about words, and not about blood on our hands. In a way, it’s a good model to emulate in the real world.
But sooner or later, God willing, we will find it within ourselves to do even more: to talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity, to invest in one another with jobs that inspire hope and that protect the environment, to sell each other on a vision of hope-a vision of peace, prosperity, and freedom, to sustain the hope with public diplomacy, and to fight against extremism but within a vision of hope- to elevate the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose.
Let me ask you this, do you think our words here could take us to where we need to go?
Ohh god
When I wrote this, I was replying to Joseph Darwish’s comment, basically I was telling him to stick to Ray’s article and not bring in some irrelevant stuff to it.
If someone is talking about Christians being abused by Israel, talking about Jews being abused by other Arab countries does not make a valid argument. If you do this in university, you will get a really big F on your papers. Use that logic here also, will alleviate a lot of problems.
Where did my comments go?