Fitna The Movie and My Reaction
Before the hype could completely boil over I found a sneaky little site for persistent individuals like my self and downloaded the controversial “film” Fitna. From what I understand religious police in Saudi Arabia have been alerted to my treachery, my IP address and identity have been sent out and will be forwarded to the first available blood thirsty jihadist response team…they should be at my front door to perform the “jee-had” in 7-10 business days.
The reason why I had to resort to sneaky means to get my hands on this 15 min film is because it was posted on Live Leak a couple days ago and literally over night and less than 24 hours later it was already gone thanks to the influx of death threats from impulsive freedom hating psychopaths all around the world. Now no one dares to host it and LiveLeak had to post this message in its absence…
Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.
This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.
Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.
We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high.
For a moment I thought, “why dont I host the file somewhere and post it here on my site?” Then I remembered I have “friends” who’d probably perform the “jee-had” on me themselves…bastards.
Finally I came to another realization, I asked myself, “what is it specifically that has made people so angry that they want to kill over it?” Is it….
-The original Mohamed cartoon showing Mohamed and a bomb on his head depicted at the beginning and end of the film?
-The listing of verses from the Quran that are seen as shocking from the perspective of non-Muslims?
-Clip’s of Sheikh’s, Imam’s and Jihadist’s dedicating themselves to the murder of Christians, Jew’s and all types of Westerners?
-The implied illusion of a page being torn out of the Quran in the end?
-The comparison of Islamization of Europe to Nazism and communism?
-The request that Islamic ideology be “defeated”?
-Or is it simply that a non-muslim has made a movie critical of Islam?
I’ll assure you that for the wild and ignorant zombie monkey’s that burn embassies, murder clergy and send death threats to anyone within 100 degrees of separation from the movie itself, its the latter. These people are animals, too simple minded to see that their violent response gives credibility to the criticism posed by the movie in the first place. I’ve browsed fellow bloggers who call themselves moderate or even non-practicing Muslims and found much angrier responses to the movie than I would have expected.
Instead of following with a knee jerk reaction or just shouting “islamophob” take the movie for what it is, a fair reflection of how violent, angry and hate filled people have interpreted the Quran and how their perverted interpretations have changed the face of Islam all around the world. How many times have I heard, “these terrorists do not reflect Islam”, “this is not the Islam I know”. By simply condemning the movie because you view it as an attack on Muslims and not an attack on a specific ideological interpretation of Islam, then you have let a great opportunity pass you by. The West fears Islam because there aren’t enough Muslims who are willing to publicly condemn the actions of other Muslims. This has been a pivotal problem in the West’s confrontation with Islam. By staying quiet and being angered by criticism aimed at barbaric animals like those featured in Fitna you allow those animals to represent you and Islam.
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My hat is off to you D.B.! I think you really “nailed it”. Thanks for your perspective.
Respect. Wish there were more people like you. It would really put my mind at ease.
It kind of bothers me that people think it’s a huge deal to receive death threats over the internet.
We get death threats here all the time, and got over 40 messages of the sort from the Free Kareem Campaign even if people knew our names and knew exactly who we were, as well as have some of our phone numbers which we once did a huge mistake by posting.
We didn’t overreact and remove content from this website or shut it down, did we? And we’re kids compared to the LiveLeak staff, and also Muslims. So the whole “oh wow Muslims want to kill everyone even the LiveLeak staff” is both kinda hilarious and it’s even more laughable to think that the film was so powerful it welcomes death threats, when every other damned person on the internet gets exactly the same threats!
I’m not saying that this is what you said, but I know it’s what people reading your post are thinking. And if they are also reading this comment, let’s hope they will not be misled either by this crappy film or by the fact that a few staff got a death threat over the internet (shock and awe.) Some “staff” need to grow some balls and grow up.
Actually DB, there are millions of Muslims expressing their concern, who bothers broadcasting it? How many “Muslims against terrorism” campaigns do Muslims need to start for the West to get over their retarded fears over anything brown that wears a turban?
I’m not used to reading justifications of Islamophobia on this site, not since Fariborz stopped writing anyways. But this is a really simplistic view and Esra’a has a point when she says that Muslims never make it to the media when they publicly condemn terrorism. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that a lot of them out there really regret what goes on in the name of their religion, one only needs to make a quick search on “Muslims against terrorism” to see what you and others are so blind to.
What opportunity did we miss? The opportunity to face further discrimination and abuse?
The film offers no form of constructive criticism whatsoever. Basically Muslims are the doom of civilizations and you’re all going to die because of us. Do you really consider this to be intellectual material?
Some people out there are just easily riddled and amused, it is quite saddening to see the level of ignorance that many aren’t ashamed to portray.
We condemn terrorism. Many times and on many occasions.
Now it’s up to YOU to recognize that we did this and to educate yourself on what many decent people already know, that this does not represent who we are.
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In an important judgement on a case dealing with religious freedom of speech in the High Court on 23rd July 1999, Lord Justice Sedley quoted Socrates and two famous Quakers when he declared: “The irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and provocative have a right to be heard.”
The corporate and state organs have no right to decide on our behalf what we should read, watch, or hear, even if we find the material objectionable.
The removal of Fitna from various webhosts was nothing but pre-emptive censorship!
Or violation of their terms of service it was with one host and thus violation of that companies rights. Or do you think that the creator of this PowerPoint presentation that everyone is calling “film” has more rights than the hosting company?
Also, YouTube and other major websites remove racist nazi propaganda against Jews. When are you going to use that as an excuse to say pre-emptive censorship?
Agreed with Jina. I guess we can all scream “censorship!” at all the neonazi and white supremacist websites that were rightly removed. Or what’s wrong Curly, is it only censorship when you agree with the author’s sentiments?
If the host finds the website disrespect to its policy, Geert needs to find a hosting company that tolerates this type of bigotry.
Otherwise, start campaigning for all the other anti-Semitic and white supremacist websites, because they are no different. By your definition they too were “censored.” I see no rejection of this “censorship” from you or anyone else. Why the hypocracy?
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Excellent article! You are right, we do not see Imams or Sheikh willingly going on TV or during rallies condemning those who are using Terrorism in the name of Islam. Look at Qaradawi or other Muftis condoning suicide bombers, or killing of civilians. This is what is the reality that the West sees everyday. And dont tell me it a conspiracy by the… you know who…
The fact that there are groups like “muslims against terrorism” just isnt enough I’m afraid. Its not the existence of such groups that suffice as a voice. Groups such as those arent even necessary, what we do need are Muslims going on TV both in the West and the Middle East to condemn the behavior of these people and say, we might not approve of all the circumstances surrounding Fitna and its producer but we do condemn the actions of extremists documented in the film.
The problem is that when people like this are featured in the Arab media as they sometimes are, they are cast as super villains, who are lambasted by guests on the show as well as the host. As far as the Western media is concerned, there is plenty of opportunity for those voices to be heard, the American media eats that stuff up. I dont want to hear about the Islamophobia of the Western media and their crusade against Islam (although I’m sure someone will still pose it). Islamophobia is quite real in many aspects of society but its been thrown around so loosely including in the comments previous to mine, its become abused in the same way crys of anti-semitism have been abused. Both are terms over used to intimidate free thought and dialogue.
Back to the main point…If a group like “Jews against Zionism” can get on Fox News without being abused by the host then I dont see why moderate Muslims cant too.
I bow to you…nice article…even so i think you make the movie better than it is…its pretty crap but other than that you are 100% right.
Sure it’s enough. People are rallying out there, moderate Muslims even actively campaigned against the death threats that the Danish cartoonists received, and issued public apologies on their behalf. Go through the search that Murad suggested and don’t tell me that’s not enough of a voice, people are speaking out. You can’t expect every Muslim on this planet to leave everything aside and run around saying “omg we’re not like that,” what’s the matter, suddenly we are responsible for spoon feeding you the truth? No. You are responsible for educating yourself, not us. It is YOUR responsibility to seek these Muslims out, and YOUR responsibility to understand the difference between “all Muslims” and a very tiny insane “fraction” of them.
It’s not our fault that people are totally ignorant and know nothing but to stereotype entire religions and their followers.
Really it does all boil down to responsibility and how lazy people are in seeking the truth.
If you want to be educated, SEEK the knowledge, UNDERSTAND it ,and acknowledge that a wealth of it exists! You search for the moderate Muslims and converse with them. Don’t let them go out of their way just to get to your doorstep because you were too disinterested (or already convinced) to go beyond Fox News.
Tons of Muslims would be interested for such an opportunity. Not our fault that the fear-mongering rightwingers at Fox News don’t bother exploring this idea further.
Really this just goes to show that people are comfortably ignorant and numb. That’s not our fault. That’s yours. And your responsibility, not solely ours, especially when we are making a lot of effort. It is enough. If you aren’t willing to listen, that’s your problem, not ours.
Didn’t that lady from Mutts and Moms get death threats for taking poor Iggy away from his loving family?
I’ve seen many people flaunt the number of death threats they receive, believing that it somehow increases their worth.
Yawn…
All the attention this guy is getting is merely because he raised his middle finger against Islam and all Muslims within Europe.
Suddenly he’s everyone’s heroe. I guess that just tells us a lot about the utter shallowness of his supporters.
The overall suckitude of humanity is overwhelming. I weep for this world.
Jews against Zionism, not Jews for Muslims. Two different topics. Apples and oranges… get it….
Fox don’t allow Muslims who talk peace to get air time, same goes for just about every other mainstream media in the West. Muslims talking peace won’t attract much attention as Muslims talking about killing infidels. This is the business model these media work under. They don’t’ give a fuck about allowing every group to express their views, all they care about is attracting as much audience to make money. If you didn’t know this, you must live in a really really tiny cave.
That reminds me, I see Muslims advocating peace on certain TV stations, including TVO, OMNI and CHUM. These are either funded by the public or run for minorities. OMNI even have proactive debates about Islam. I have yet to see the same on the mainstream media.
Who said they are the only one out there?
Majority of the Muslims, live in countries that has very little violence committed in the name of Islam. That’s proof enough that Muslims don’t have this special genes that makes them violent.
I don’t see crimes committed by Christians being condemned by other Christians. Same for Hindus, Buddhists etc… why are Muslims so special. Is it because the Western world has this utter hatred for Muslims?
I’ll also ask this, if I were to take quotes from the Old Testament and mirror it with atrocities committed by the Jewish state, would I be considered an anti-Semite or a champion of free speech?
Maybe we should create an alteration of Global Voices Online. “Muslims are talking, are you listening?”
In an important judgement on a case dealing with religious freedom of speech in the High Court on 23rd July 1999, Lord Justice Sedley quoted Socrates and two famous Quakers when he declared: “The irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and provocative have a right to be heard.”
The corporate and state organs have no right to decide on our behalf what we should read, watch, or hear, even if we find the material objectionable.
The removal of Fitna from various webhosts was nothing but pre-emptive censorship!
Did you post this comment on every post about this movie that you could find in a google search?
Islamophobia has created a culture of PR. If you wanna be famous, you need to do nothing else other than shove your face on TV and whine like a spoiled child about how much you hate Islam and how Muslims are going to eat your children with mustard or maybe even curry because aren’t half of them like, Indians? With turbans and stuff? Oh ya and 9/11 totally sucked. Can I be woman of the year on TIME now that I’ve exhausted my right to free speech? Pretty please! If not, then I’ll make a crappy video and feign threats to popularize it!
You’d be preaching to the choir, no one is interested in that kind of stuff. People would lack things to complain about.
I don’t see crimes committed by Christians being condemned by other Christians. Same for Hindus, Buddhists etc…
Well actually I do.
Anyways regardless, I agree with what others have been saying here. Lots of Muslims are very clear about condemning terrorism publically and vocally, they’re just ignored. Newsstations like blood and gore and fear, they’re always going to win in the balance of coverage.
Esra’a I know what you mean but expecting people to go out and seek knowledge is faulty, its not gonna happen and no group who expects to correct perceptions is gonna wait for that to happen. If you want things to change you have to spoon feed it to them, thats just the way the world works. I thought thats what we are doing here on Mideast youth, we arent sitting in our houses waiting for people to knock on our door so we can educate them. You made a forum on the biggest stage in the world so that people can hear our voices. We are bringing the message to them. When you created FreeKareem.org and made all these rallies you pursued people to educate them on his plight. You understand the methodology more than anyone else here, defending your faith deserves the same persistence, even more.
Beeing from Europe i can assure you Wildner (the Guy who made Fitna) has little to no support in the major News and Media.
And:
Mmmh yeah that might be because there are not so many people out there that commit crimes in the name of other religions…not that there are not lots of criminals in the Christian, Jew or what ever population but they don´t argue that they do it because of their religion…so they are perceived as general criminals…nobody cares what they believe in.
Sure that shouldn´t mean that every muslim now has to speak out against the terrorists but the more the better. At the End you have to understand that hearing the violent parts of the quran and seeing over and over the talks of some of the crazy imams can make you pretty affraid of Islam…especially if you never had a lot to do with any religion and that is pretty common in europe.
Especially in the Netherlands (Northern Europe) religion is not practiced a lot.
singularvoice.wordpress.com/
tariqnelson.com
eteraz.wordpress.com
umarlee.com
altmuslim.com
ijtihad.org
Some Muslims who actively speak out against terrorism, D.B.
The most strongest voice against Islamic terrorism comes from Tariq Nelson here: tariqnelson.com/category/muslims-do-denounce-terror/
They exist, but according to this guy, no one cares because it’s easy to hate all than to acknowledge that there are many “moderate” Muslims that exist.
“I don’t see crimes committed by Christians being condemned by other Christians. Same for Hindus, Buddhists etc… why are Muslims so special. Is it because the Western world has this utter hatred for Muslims?”
Yeah you never saw Hindus around the world as well as Christians denounce the attacks on Indian Christians in Orissa on Christmas Day, right?
Shiv Sena ain’t worth condemning to them, really.
I’d like to make something clear, Geert Wilders is certainly NOT my hero, he’s more of a bigot than anything else however I’m not gonna discredit valuable points of the movie because i dont like him. I’m not prepared to read into his motives alone, dont tell me this movie would be slightly less offensive if it was made by someone else or even a muslim.
Who cares who it was made by? Geert was a nobody before this video (it’s not a film – it’s a brief slide show with zero original content). No one dismisses his views just because of who he is (a nobody desperately seeking attention), they are just criticizing what they see wrong with this distasteful video. I see nothing wrong in that. As for the death threats, please, everyone gets them. LiveLeak is just overreacting and taking advantage of the unnecessary hype.
And it’s hardly because they are favorable towards Islam. You’d see worse reactions if this type of video was created against Jews, Christians, or people of a particular race. Muslims deserve equal treatment. This is democracy and equality in action. Such a video would be unheard of in a country like Germany had it been against the Jews, even if it was 10 times less offensive. Would you throw this under the banner of “censorship”?
There’s so many hypocrisies demonstrated within most of the reactions that I feel it’s almost dangerous.
People do not expect Muslims to react. Hello? Do we not have the right to practice our free speech too? People think free speech is one way, like a submissive form of listening. Far from it. It means we engage in the discussions. It’s our right to criticize this poor excuse for a video if we find it offensive. Some people find that “abusive.” They need to get over it.
Esra’a when it comes to the liveleak being overreacting, the statement liveleak gave hints that some of the threats made against their staff included personal information like the names of the staff, or home/living residence address and or phone number. If someone sent me a death threat and it included my full real name, my address or my phone number I would take that death threat a hell of a lot more seriously that didn’t include any of those.
How many deaththreats have you recieved Esra’a that contained your full name, address of where you live and or your phone number?
In the USA, we get these very nice, neatly dressed, clean and well groomed, well meaning dingbats that show up at your door and want to talk about “Jesus” or pray with you or invite you to a “Church Revival” or whatever. I tell them I’m a “Hare Krishna” or a Buddhist and close the door. You just gotta be polite about it. Nobody gets excited or worked up about it. What you’re telling me is that there are lots of muslims who feel the same way about their “overly enthused” religion ding-a-lings. I can relate to that.
To the news media anywhere, sensationalism sells. Big time. They all LIVE for the big breaking news. Right now, Fox News is wearing out the “sensational” tapes of Reverend Wright (Barry Obama’s preacher) who is a raving lunatic just like the ones in “Fitna” (“fitna” is a hillbilly word that means “getting ready to”–that cracks me up.). Fox is beside itself, just shuddering in ecstasy (over and over) at the racist and bigotted crap comming out of this preacher’s mouth, on a video I’ve seen too many times. And who cares? I’m over it!
I’m going to go to those sites that Murad menioned. Thanks Murad, for the tip. I think you guys are right. Too much emphasis on bullshit in the media, but it’s better that following the blunders of Brittany and Paris….but not by much. Bullshit is still bullshit. Thanks!
Throughout the past 2 years, maybe 3 or 4. All I did was pull down my phone number and address. After a few months of ignoring them, they disappeared, and I’m still alive. Nothing to fret about. It’s the freaking internet. Death threats are everywhere here. It comes with every daring campaign or blog, and people need to get over it.
You make it sound like these campaigns are just pro-Islam PR bullshit. What’s the point? To make the West like you or to stop the fuckin violence? No one cares about condeming or apologizing. Have a million campaigns about “it ain’t us, it’s just the nutcases!” Yeah, no kidding. That message got through to the west and we already knew it anyway. Big deal. Talk, talk, talk and so what? Will good press in America stop the next intifada? You ask how many campaigns does it take. Enough to make a difference in the TERRORISM, not the air time on FOX. I’m mot putting you down, you got some serious guts to do a site like this. You could end up in the cell next to Kareem.
That was a great comment Tonto, thanks. I wish more people would react like this instead of obsessing over nothing and insisting that this guy actually contributed anything other than make room for more bigotry.
You won’t stop the “fuckin violence” by doing what you do, and besides, you do realize that these Islamists terrorize their own Muslim brethren before they can even think about the West, right? All these executions, the stoning, the rape and murder that goes justified on a daily basis, who do you think is really suffering under the hands of these nutjobs?
Certainly not the West. This is a global issue, of which the Muslim world has tasted its bitterness more than anyone else. And to attack Islam is not targeting the real problem.
A well expressed opinion. But u have to remind yourself that the moviemaker is a right-winged politican with the intention to disunite which itself will create an anti-islamic mood. He said “[The Koran] is an inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror.”(BBC News, 28 February 2008). These guys are as extremist as “yours”.
I, however, have to thank you for the blog. And I hope these enlightened opinions will saturate through both worlds. the western and the eastern.
False
No but stop funding and arming a terrorist state might.
I really enjoyed this discussion and article….
I find the question of “whose responsibility is it to “educate” the world and reverse stereotypes?” truly fascinating. I think the answer comes down to those who want to educate themselves, will….those who don’t, won’t; and it’s no ones respponsibility to shove something in their face if they don’t want to learn it themselves. For me, as an American Christian who has never lived in the ME, it came down to something inside me that said what I’m seeing on the news every day can’t be the whole story (I’m sure Nissim would call this “common sense”). Therefore, I started looking for other sources – I read about Kareem’s case, and eventually ended up here at MEY.
Blaming CNN/Fox/ect for only showing the nutjobs of Islam on TV is fruitless, because TV news only RARELY shows the good of our society. It’s always the fringe members of society that will get press. That’s just the way the world is. But, I think that as the Islamic extremists get more press, the press to show the opposite opinion is gaining at least a little more momentum (look at this article from the LA Times): http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-esposito2apr02,0,5220274.story
On the question of what lines should be drawn on free speech in the name of tolerance….case law (so far) in the US has drawn the line at yelling “fire” in a crowded room, but not punishing Neo-Nazi groups who want to publicly march or publish anti-Semitic literature. The internet, being so far relatively untested (at least when it comes to US free speech law), provides a different problem of free speech. My personal opinion is that if you are offended by Fitna video – as well many people should be because it’s inflammatory – don’t watch it….but I certainly don’t think that the creator should be killed for making this video. Of course, there should be some restrictions in the laws guarding freedom of speech – but what kind of restrictions, and who decides where the lines are drawn?
I think it comes down to what directly harms another person (and this is where it becomes tricky for the internet) – for example, if the Nazi groups in the US want to march with their “white supremicist” signs, go ahead. But, if you are going to pull out guns and shoot Jews that may be streetside, then you’ve crossed the line.
If we start to allow overarching government bodies to decide what is considered inflammatory, hatred, and what should/should not be published (see this article from IHT: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/01/news/UN-GEN-UN-Free-Speech.php) we begin to walk a dangerous line of being subject to the whim of ever-changing governments.
Esra
You are absolutely delightful
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When are muslims going to start reading their holy book to understand it? A lot have been said in the comments to this post but not much about the core issue. The central problem of Islam is the Koran. A “holy” book with that much hate and violence is at its best only ridiculous. Do muslims like to be laughed at?
Not really, but we quite enjoy laughing at the likes of you who dismiss an entire religion because of your personal interpretation of it. Hilarity ensues whenever people resort to this kind of bigoted bullshit.
Esra’a (Bahrain)!
“Not really” was quite a humorous answer, I wish your reply could have had more of that. However, already Muhammad (the so-called prophet) had problems with people laughing at him or ridiculing him (not fearing him like he wished they would). Allah found it so troubling that this situation even made into the holy book itself. Koran 68:51: “And lo! those who disbelieve would fain disconcert thee with their eyes when they hear the Reminder, and they say: Lo! he is indeed mad;” “He” in this verse is Muhammad. From another religious text, Sirat Rasul Allah, pages 675 and 676, we know the story of Asma bint Marwan, an inconvenient poet and mother of young children, who was such an annoyance to Muhammed that he had her and her children murdered in the spring of 623.
I assume that you consider yourself a muslim. Likely one of those so called moderate muslims. Your reply leads to at least one question: What if my interpretation of islam is correct? You seem to mean that a personal interpretation is irrelevant. The important thing however is not whether my interpretation is personal or not, but if it is true. Geert Wilders has showed the world that the Koran contains clearly uncivilised exhortations, and he has challenged the muslims to do something about it. What do you have to say about that? Can islam be reformed?
I had no idea you guys were best friends to the point of you being such an expert on him.
Where did he challenge anyone?
Did Nazis challenge “Jews” to do something about their identity when they were abused and insulted?
Does antisemitism challenge Judaism?
Geert is nothing but an attention seeking hypocrite.
Have you bothered digging into the bible?
Your comments are useless, and boring. Islamophobes make me sick and many non-Muslims are as sick as we are because Jews, persecuted Christians, et al, can all relate to what is going on.
Nothing decent ever comes out of the tedious anti-Islamic remarks where people claim to be pundits, which just proves that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Get a clue.
Doesn’t have to be.
What do you have to say about all the decent Muslims (millions of them) who are perfectly happy with the religion the way it is?
The real question is not whether or not Islam should be reformed.
The question is or should be, “can Islamaphobes be informed?” (and any less annoying than they are?)
Islam is the punching bag of every halfwit who wants to be on the frontpage of a newspaper. Get lives, people.
And what do you have to say about this film in reaction to Geert’s?
Ah but it did have an effect though Esra, it caused you to pull down your phone number and your address. If you didn’t think the death threats were somewhat serious why would you pull them down? It can’t be because your annoyed because all you had to do was just block them.
Also esra unlike you they didn’t willing put up their personal information. Which means the people that did threaten them showed a certain level of seriousness, the fact that they would go to the length to uncover the identities of the live leak staff either shows someone that has too much time on their hands or someone who means it.
esra, I’m assuming right now you still don’t publish your phone number and your address, lets say sometime in the future someone does send you another deaththreat with either your name, phone number, or address. Are you saying that someone that had most likely had to work to uncover those details you wouldn’t take more seriously then someone who just copied and pasted your personal contact info that you had put up on a blog?
Esra’a (Bahrain)!
EB (Esra’a (Bahrain)): I had no idea you guys were best friends to the point of you being such an expert on him.
Hush, Esra’a, not so loud; I do not want to reveal that I have travelled in time. Well, more surprises await concerning my expertise. But the fact that you obviously didn’t know about Koran 68:51 was remarkable. Are you sure you are Muslim?
EB: Where did he challenge anyone?
Okay; perhaps you have not seen the film.
EB: Did Nazis challenge “Jews” to do something about their identity when they were abused and insulted? Does antisemitism challenge Judaism?
What does the first question have to do with the Islam problem? Regarding the second: Oh yes; look at the situation in the Middle East.
EB: Geert is nothing but an attention seeking hypocrite.
What are your reasons for believing that? That he has personal bodyguards?
EB: Have you bothered digging into the bible?
Of course. But do not try to digress from the subject. That is an old Muslim tactic. When it gets hard to defend your belief; start talking about something else. No, let’s go on with Muhammad and Islam; it is such an incredible story.
EB: Your comments are useless, and boring.
… and you are funny.
EB: Islamophobes make me sick [...]
Yes, I can easily understand that. They often say your prophet was a gangster, rapist, and mass-murderer. This is naturally sickening at first, but when you discover it is true you are on the way to becoming a healthier person and making the world a better place to live in.
EB: Nothing decent ever comes out of the tedious anti-Islamic remarks where people claim to be pundits, which just proves that you are part of the problem, not the solution.
This is a dangerously categoric statement. And, besides, what do you know about me?
EB: Get a clue.
What about yourself in this respect?
EB: Doesn’t have to be. [On reformation of Islam]
So do you really mean having all the hatred and violence in the Koran is no problem, especially considering 2:85?: [...] “Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.”
EB: What do you have to say about all the decent Muslims (millions of them) who are perfectly happy with the religion the way it is?
Most Muslims have not read the Koran and Hadith to understand these books and the religion they represent. They know a few decent verses like Koran 2:110: “[...] and pay the poor-due; [..]” or 2:215: “They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. [...]” or (better still) 2:42: “Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.” or 2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. [...]” (though this statement is corrupted by the next verse 2:257: “Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.”) They are cultural Muslims uninterested in any deeper theological discussion; they mainly want to preserve their cultural heritage. Though this is very important for any people, it is a complicated problem when it comes to cultural Muslims. They have been breast-fed with this doctrine. It is hard to leave a religion; to leave islam is most often also linked with serious threats against the apostate, certainly from Allah: Koran 16:106: “Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief – save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith – but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.”
EB: The real question is not whether or not Islam should be reformed.
Well, here you probably unknowingly sound like the famous apostate Ali Sina.
EB: The question is or should be, “can Islamaphobes be informed?” (and any less annoying than they are?)
Some of those you call by the pejorative name “islamophobes” are the ones that really know what islam is about. The increasing number of ex-Muslims on sites such as http://www.faithfreedom.org have a lot to inform you of. And no, I guess you have to get used to us being very annoying. We want to liberate the muslims and the world from the yoke of islam. We are not attacking people — though it perhaps may seem so with our unreserved language — but we are attacking Islam because of the system of belief it is. We are so tired of the cult of death and destruction and want something much better for those calling themselves Muslims today.
EB: Islam is the punching bag of every halfwit who wants to be on the frontpage of a newspaper.
If you have only the slightest interest in human rights it is hard not to hit that bag considering the real nature of Islam.
Magnus, copying and pasting Koranic verses from the internet won’t do you any justice. I can sit here and do the same with Christianity. So if this sounds like your type of game, I’m in.
Christian terrorism
Teehee.
Cruelty and violence in the bible.
Teeheehee.
Your turn!
Murad!
MK (Murad (Kuwait)): Magnus, copying and pasting Koranic verses from the internet won’t do you any justice.
Why not? Please, explain.
MK: I can sit here and do the same with Christianity. So if this sounds like your type of game, I’m in.
The old Islamic digression tactic again. See my previous post. We shall get into the Bible, but first, if you are interested, start explaining why I got it all wrong regarding Islam.
Murad wrote
You could do the same for Judaism too. All this finger pointing makes it look as if there are serious issues with all of the Abrahamic religions. I just watched the Youtube that you posted, and rather than finger pointing, I would have thought that this was a perfect opportunity to make a video refuting “Fitna” by showing all the good things that Islam is doing in the world. I am sure that it would not take more than a couple of days to put together a video of images and news items that show the beauty and benefits of Islam, rather than joining in the game of hurling abuse and shouting “you are just as bad as we are”.