MK: I can sit here and do the same with Christianity.

You could do the same for Judaism too. All this finger pointing makes it look as if there are serious issues with all of the Abrahamic religions. I just watched the Youtube that you posted, and rather than finger pointing, I would have thought that this was a perfect opportunity to make a video refuting “Fitna” by showing all the good things that Islam is doing in the world. I am sure that it would not take more than a couple of days to put together a video of images and news items that show the beauty and benefits of Islam, rather than joining in the game of hurling abuse and shouting “you are just as bad as we are”.

MK (Murad (Kuwait)): Magnus, copying and pasting Koranic verses from the internet won’t do you any justice.

Why not? Please, explain.

MK: I can sit here and do the same with Christianity. So if this sounds like your type of game, I’m in.

The old Islamic digression tactic again. See my previous post. We shall get into the Bible, but first, if you are interested, start explaining why I got it all wrong regarding Islam.

Christian terrorism

Teehee.

Cruelty and violence in the bible.

Teeheehee.

Your turn!

EB (Esra’a (Bahrain)): I had no idea you guys were best friends to the point of you being such an expert on him.

Hush, Esra’a, not so loud; I do not want to reveal that I have travelled in time. Well, more surprises await concerning my expertise. But the fact that you obviously didn’t know about Koran 68:51 was remarkable. Are you sure you are Muslim?

EB: Where did he challenge anyone?

Okay; perhaps you have not seen the film.

EB: Did Nazis challenge “Jews” to do something about their identity when they were abused and insulted? Does antisemitism challenge Judaism?

What does the first question have to do with the Islam problem? Regarding the second: Oh yes; look at the situation in the Middle East.

EB: Geert is nothing but an attention seeking hypocrite.

What are your reasons for believing that? That he has personal bodyguards?

EB: Have you bothered digging into the bible?

Of course. But do not try to digress from the subject. That is an old Muslim tactic. When it gets hard to defend your belief; start talking about something else. No, let’s go on with Muhammad and Islam; it is such an incredible story.

EB: Your comments are useless, and boring.

… and you are funny.

EB: Islamophobes make me sick [...]

Yes, I can easily understand that. They often say your prophet was a gangster, rapist, and mass-murderer. This is naturally sickening at first, but when you discover it is true you are on the way to becoming a healthier person and making the world a better place to live in.

EB: Nothing decent ever comes out of the tedious anti-Islamic remarks where people claim to be pundits, which just proves that you are part of the problem, not the solution.

This is a dangerously categoric statement. And, besides, what do you know about me?

EB: Get a clue.

What about yourself in this respect?

EB: Doesn’t have to be. [On reformation of Islam]

So do you really mean having all the hatred and violence in the Koran is no problem, especially considering 2:85?: [...] “Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.”

EB: What do you have to say about all the decent Muslims (millions of them) who are perfectly happy with the religion the way it is?

Most Muslims have not read the Koran and Hadith to understand these books and the religion they represent. They know a few decent verses like Koran 2:110: “[...] and pay the poor-due; [..]” or 2:215: “They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. [...]” or (better still) 2:42: “Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.” or 2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. [...]” (though this statement is corrupted by the next verse 2:257: “Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.”) They are cultural Muslims uninterested in any deeper theological discussion; they mainly want to preserve their cultural heritage. Though this is very important for any people, it is a complicated problem when it comes to cultural Muslims. They have been breast-fed with this doctrine. It is hard to leave a religion; to leave islam is most often also linked with serious threats against the apostate, certainly from Allah: Koran 16:106: “Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief – save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith – but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.”

EB: The real question is not whether or not Islam should be reformed.

Well, here you probably unknowingly sound like the famous apostate Ali Sina.

EB: The question is or should be, “can Islamaphobes be informed?” (and any less annoying than they are?)

Some of those you call by the pejorative name “islamophobes” are the ones that really know what islam is about. The increasing number of ex-Muslims on sites such as http://www.faithfreedom.org have a lot to inform you of. And no, I guess you have to get used to us being very annoying. We want to liberate the muslims and the world from the yoke of islam. We are not attacking people — though it perhaps may seem so with our unreserved language — but we are attacking Islam because of the system of belief it is. We are so tired of the cult of death and destruction and want something much better for those calling themselves Muslims today.

EB: Islam is the punching bag of every halfwit who wants to be on the frontpage of a newspaper.

If you have only the slightest interest in human rights it is hard not to hit that bag considering the real nature of Islam.

Also esra unlike you they didn’t willing put up their personal information. Which means the people that did threaten them showed a certain level of seriousness, the fact that they would go to the length to uncover the identities of the live leak staff either shows someone that has too much time on their hands or someone who means it.

esra, I’m assuming right now you still don’t publish your phone number and your address, lets say sometime in the future someone does send you another deaththreat with either your name, phone number, or address. Are you saying that someone that had most likely had to work to uncover those details you wouldn’t take more seriously then someone who just copied and pasted your personal contact info that you had put up on a blog?

However, already Muhammad (the so-called prophet) had problems with people laughing at him or ridiculing him

I had no idea you guys were best friends to the point of you being such an expert on him.

Geert Wilders has showed the world that the Koran contains clearly uncivilised exhortations, and he has challenged the muslims to do something about it.

Where did he challenge anyone?

Did Nazis challenge “Jews” to do something about their identity when they were abused and insulted?

Does antisemitism challenge Judaism?

Geert is nothing but an attention seeking hypocrite.

Have you bothered digging into the bible?

Your comments are useless, and boring. Islamophobes make me sick and many non-Muslims are as sick as we are because Jews, persecuted Christians, et al, can all relate to what is going on.

Nothing decent ever comes out of the tedious anti-Islamic remarks where people claim to be pundits, which just proves that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Get a clue.

Can islam be reformed?

Doesn’t have to be.

What do you have to say about all the decent Muslims (millions of them) who are perfectly happy with the religion the way it is?

The real question is not whether or not Islam should be reformed.

The question is or should be, “can Islamaphobes be informed?” (and any less annoying than they are?)

Islam is the punching bag of every halfwit who wants to be on the frontpage of a newspaper. Get lives, people.

“Not really” was quite a humorous answer, I wish your reply could have had more of that. However, already Muhammad (the so-called prophet) had problems with people laughing at him or ridiculing him (not fearing him like he wished they would). Allah found it so troubling that this situation even made into the holy book itself. Koran 68:51: “And lo! those who disbelieve would fain disconcert thee with their eyes when they hear the Reminder, and they say: Lo! he is indeed mad;” “He” in this verse is Muhammad. From another religious text, Sirat Rasul Allah, pages 675 and 676, we know the story of Asma bint Marwan, an inconvenient poet and mother of young children, who was such an annoyance to Muhammed that he had her and her children murdered in the spring of 623.

I assume that you consider yourself a muslim. Likely one of those so called moderate muslims. Your reply leads to at least one question: What if my interpretation of islam is correct? You seem to mean that a personal interpretation is irrelevant. The important thing however is not whether my interpretation is personal or not, but if it is true. Geert Wilders has showed the world that the Koran contains clearly uncivilised exhortations, and he has challenged the muslims to do something about it. What do you have to say about that? Can islam be reformed?

Do muslims like to be laughed at?

Not really, but we quite enjoy laughing at the likes of you who dismiss an entire religion because of your personal interpretation of it. Hilarity ensues whenever people resort to this kind of bigoted bullshit.

The overall suckitude of humanity is overwhelming. I weep for this world.

You are absolutely delightful

I find the question of “whose responsibility is it to “educate” the world and reverse stereotypes?” truly fascinating. I think the answer comes down to those who want to educate themselves, will….those who don’t, won’t; and it’s no ones respponsibility to shove something in their face if they don’t want to learn it themselves. For me, as an American Christian who has never lived in the ME, it came down to something inside me that said what I’m seeing on the news every day can’t be the whole story (I’m sure Nissim would call this “common sense”). Therefore, I started looking for other sources – I read about Kareem’s case, and eventually ended up here at MEY.

Blaming CNN/Fox/ect for only showing the nutjobs of Islam on TV is fruitless, because TV news only RARELY shows the good of our society. It’s always the fringe members of society that will get press. That’s just the way the world is. But, I think that as the Islamic extremists get more press, the press to show the opposite opinion is gaining at least a little more momentum (look at this article from the LA Times): http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-esposito2apr02,0,5220274.story

On the question of what lines should be drawn on free speech in the name of tolerance….case law (so far) in the US has drawn the line at yelling “fire” in a crowded room, but not punishing Neo-Nazi groups who want to publicly march or publish anti-Semitic literature. The internet, being so far relatively untested (at least when it comes to US free speech law), provides a different problem of free speech. My personal opinion is that if you are offended by Fitna video – as well many people should be because it’s inflammatory – don’t watch it….but I certainly don’t think that the creator should be killed for making this video. Of course, there should be some restrictions in the laws guarding freedom of speech – but what kind of restrictions, and who decides where the lines are drawn?

I think it comes down to what directly harms another person (and this is where it becomes tricky for the internet) – for example, if the Nazi groups in the US want to march with their “white supremicist” signs, go ahead. But, if you are going to pull out guns and shoot Jews that may be streetside, then you’ve crossed the line.

If we start to allow overarching government bodies to decide what is considered inflammatory, hatred, and what should/should not be published (see this article from IHT: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/01/news/UN-GEN-UN-Free-Speech.php) we begin to walk a dangerous line of being subject to the whim of ever-changing governments.

That message got through to the west and we already knew it anyway.

False

Will good press in America stop the next intifada?

No but stop funding and arming a terrorist state might.

To make the West like you or to stop the fuckin violence?

You won’t stop the “fuckin violence” by doing what you do, and besides, you do realize that these Islamists terrorize their own Muslim brethren before they can even think about the West, right? All these executions, the stoning, the rape and murder that goes justified on a daily basis, who do you think is really suffering under the hands of these nutjobs?

Certainly not the West. This is a global issue, of which the Muslim world has tasted its bitterness more than anyone else. And to attack Islam is not targeting the real problem.

Actually DB, there are millions of Muslims expressing their concern, who bothers broadcasting it? How many “Muslims against terrorism” campaigns do Muslims need to start for the West to get over their retarded fears over anything brown that wears a turban?

You make it sound like these campaigns are just pro-Islam PR bullshit. What’s the point? To make the West like you or to stop the fuckin violence? No one cares about condeming or apologizing. Have a million campaigns about “it ain’t us, it’s just the nutcases!” Yeah, no kidding. That message got through to the west and we already knew it anyway. Big deal. Talk, talk, talk and so what? Will good press in America stop the next intifada? You ask how many campaigns does it take. Enough to make a difference in the TERRORISM, not the air time on FOX. I’m mot putting you down, you got some serious guts to do a site like this. You could end up in the cell next to Kareem.

How many deaththreats have you recieved Esra’a that contained your full name, address of where you live and or your phone number?

Throughout the past 2 years, maybe 3 or 4. All I did was pull down my phone number and address. After a few months of ignoring them, they disappeared, and I’m still alive. Nothing to fret about. It’s the freaking internet. Death threats are everywhere here. It comes with every daring campaign or blog, and people need to get over it.

How many deaththreats have you recieved Esra’a that contained your full name, address of where you live and or your phone number?

Beeing from Europe i can assure you Wildner (the Guy who made Fitna) has little to no support in the major News and Media.

And it’s hardly because they are favorable towards Islam. You’d see worse reactions if this type of video was created against Jews, Christians, or people of a particular race. Muslims deserve equal treatment. This is democracy and equality in action. Such a video would be unheard of in a country like Germany had it been against the Jews, even if it was 10 times less offensive. Would you throw this under the banner of “censorship”?

There’s so many hypocrisies demonstrated within most of the reactions that I feel it’s almost dangerous.

People do not expect Muslims to react. Hello? Do we not have the right to practice our free speech too? People think free speech is one way, like a submissive form of listening. Far from it. It means we engage in the discussions. It’s our right to criticize this poor excuse for a video if we find it offensive. Some people find that “abusive.” They need to get over it.

Yeah you never saw Hindus around the world as well as Christians denounce the attacks on Indian Christians in Orissa on Christmas Day, right?

Shiv Sena ain’t worth condemning to them, really.