8 year-old Yemeni Girl Seeks Divorce
In a precedent in Yemen, an eight-year-old girl filed a complaint against her father in court, for forcing her to marry a 30-year-old man.
The girl, whose identity should have been withheld for her protection, was subjected to sexual and domestic abuse by her rapist.
“My father beat me and told me that I must marry this man, and if I did not, I would be raped and no law and no sheikh in this country would help me. I refused but I couldn’t stop the marriage,” Nojoud Nasser told the Yemen Times. “I asked and begged my mother, father, and aunt to help me to get divorced. They answered, ‘We can do nothing. If you want you can go to court by yourself.’ So this is what I have done,” she said.
Nasser said that she was exposed to sexual abuse and domestic violence by her husband. “He used to do bad things to me, and I had no idea as to what a marriage is. I would run from one room to another in order to escape, but in the end he would catch me and beat me and then continued to do what he wanted. I cried so much but no one listened to me. One day I ran away from him and came to the court and talked to them.”
“Whenever I wanted to play in the yard he beat me and asked me to go to the bedroom with him. This lasted for two months,” added Nasser. “He was too tough with me, and whenever I asked him for mercy, he beat me and slapped me and then used me. I just want to have a respectful life and divorce him.”
Her rapist, who is now imprisoned without charge, expressed no remorse, saying he was only practising his “right” as a “husband”.
There can be no denying that much of the ills women face in our societies can be blamed on Islam. While whether or not the prophet married a 9-year-old is debated amongst Muslims, subsequent scholars throughout the centuries have justified marrying off young girls.
Arab and Muslim countries have made progress in the past few years by raising the age limit for marriage, however, according to Sharia, a father is allowed to give away his pre-pubescent girl in marriage, without her consent – provided he believes her ‘husband’ to be a pious, reliable man.
Muslim women are still taught that they cannot refuse their husbands’ calls to bed, lest the angels “curse her until morning”. To date, only two countries – Turkey and Mauritania -have criminalized marital rape.
If Muslims could only stand back and ask “What merciful God would bestow us with a religion in which half of HMideast Youth – Thinking Ahead › Edit — WordPressis creation is treated unequally? What Father would justify such brutal crimes against His children?” such tragedies could be prevented.
Update: As was expected, the court terminated the marriage. However, the girl’s family was ordered to pay $250 as compensation to the “ex-husband”.
In Islam, wives are allowed to seek an annulment, provided they have a ‘valid reason’, and must pay back the dowry. That ruling, in itself unjust, should not apply in this case.
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What animal would marry, then rape a 8 year old girl? Good God that is so very disgusting! He should have waited until she was 11, right? My contempt for this crap is boundless. I would spit on his grave.
The so-called husband of poor Nojoud was just following the example of the so-called prophet Muhammad who married Aisha aged 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9.
From Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Technically yes, but no decent person would force such a young girl to marry, not even then! She should be old enough to make her own decisions.
I blame her beast of a father. People would do anything for money (or a goat?) these days. The child clearly did not want to be married, and the father knew perfectly well why such a paedophile would buy his daughter off (for sex) and he seemed to be perfectly content with that. How do people have the heart to do shit like this? Sell their own flesh and blood for sex, so that they can live a long and prosperous life? Oh God. Save us from your followers.
Ah, I just realized you were being sarcastic. Probably. Right?
It’s weird, because I know people who would actually ask that! Just obviously not you, Tonto.
http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/ayesha.htm
funny how the fifth column ‘moslems’ running this website are far more tolerant with Islamohpobic comments than they are with “homophobic” comments
Kawthar:
are you sure that this is imposed on your society by Islam? as I know, this was even practiced before Islam, and Islam, in its efforts to limit un-reasonable traditions (such as slavery or burying the kids once born ‘girl’), set also some limits on it. so what we see today is the continuity of the past to which contributed many factors including the people who refused to evolve. same applies to my society, but not in the case of this certain tradition.
The little girl has a better understanding of what is right than the society in which she lives. What does that tell you? That the truth is accessible to us all, even the youngest and most innocent among us.
We’ve confused matters, when it comes to right and wrong. We’ve come to believe in stupid things, and we kill each other in the name of our own stupidity.
It’s time to shake things up a bit. What if I were to say that most of what we believe is nonsense? If you want to know the truth, which is a big if these days, then just take a minute or so to listen to this little girl.
We have built some very impresseive mosques, and churches, and synagogues. That’s all well and good. But if we use our institutions and our beliefs to hide from the truth, then what does it say about us, and about our understanding of the God we pretend to worship?
Oh really?
Because the “schism” post wasn’t closed due to Islamophobia, right?
Because 2 members here weren’t kicked out due to Islamophobia, right?
Because the most popular post here (click on popular in the sidebar) didn’t result in many disagreements (and fights) due to Islamophobia, right?
Misinformed as usual, with no intention to respond to anything except for the sake of insulting others. Go have premarital sex and sniff drugs the way you admitted to, you laughable “Muslim.” You sure do have a perverse definition of what a “Muslim” is or should be.
There are a lot of “ifs” on that website. However, both authentic Hadith and the biographies of Muhammad state that Aisha was young. On another note, the Qur’an does say it is permissible to consummate a marriage when the wife has her first menses…(not bashing, just asking)
The offshoot Mormon cult that was recently raided by the police in the US based their child brides on the history and tradition of the old Mormon Church. Once a religion condones certain things, even though they change and outlaw the practice, there will be those that refer to the past and credit their actions as valid and of a religious nature.
When exposed they can be prosecuted as it is against the law to abuse children in this manner.
The ‘tradition’ of Islam and the example of the Prophet allow the continuation of this practice on religious grounds as many believe the Hadiths as they are written.
Wasn’t the attempt by lawmakers in Iran to raise the marriagable age of a girl to 14 challenged and defeated by the Mullah’s as being contrary to Muhameds example.
I’ve seen girls as young as 9 married in Kandahar to men in their 40/50′s. Not the norm but not unusual either.
What is the leagal age for marriage in Saudi Arabia? I don’t know.
Yes, I was being sarcastic. Here a female must be at least 18 to be married without parental consent, and not even then if she is younger than 16. If she is found to be having sexual relations before she is 18, the man is arrested and charged, by the state, with statuatory rape…whether the sex was consentual or not. It’s the state’s case and will be prosecuted. Usually that results in jail and a huge fine. If the perpetrator is a rapist of a young girl, it usually results in jail. That type of pervert must be protected in jail or will probably be killed or raped by the other prisoners in jail. There is no worse crime in the eyes of many here than to force sex on a child.
I googled it and found that SA, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar and the UAE have no legislated age limit on females for marriage and it’s left to the Islamic/Sharia interpretation. What does that really mean as to age?
Iran’s law simply says a female must be in ‘puberty’.
Interestingly the Palestinians of Gaza have legislated 9 years of age for a female, and I suspect we know where that came from, and 12 for a male. Now wouldn’t that make a mature couple.
Mohammad
I agree that many of these practices date back to pre-Islamic times, and the arrival of Islam signalled a new beginning for women in Arabia. However, I cannot help but feel that Islam since then, Islam has been an impediment to growth.
patb: “Now wouldn’t that make a mature couple.”
What a great line. Thanks, patb, for your intellectual honesty and your sense of humor!
Kawthar:
as you truely pointed out, “the arrival of Islam signalled a new beginning” not only for women but also for many other wronged sectors of society, even slaves. (yeah, Islam didnot abandon slavery for I think it would be next to impossible in that period of time. Islam, however, persuaded muslims to set the slaves free, and even made it obligatory as a punishment for some crimes… whatever, it was good enough to be supported.)
however, I wonder why this evolutionary movement did stop after the very first caliphs?
Mohammad, I think that for the “evolutionary movement” to have continued, there would have had to be certain definitions in place that allow for change.
When the religion was new, change was natural, because everything was in a state of flux until certain patterns became entrenched. After a while, that type of flexibility was no longer avaiable, because people came to believe certain things, and the mechanism for change was no longer in place.
If Muslims wish to reform Islam, or at least to make the religion more in keeping with modern sensibilities, then they will have to develop a belief system that allows for change, and that takes modern notions into account.
For example, if your idea of God is that He is unyielding in His commandments, then the inclination to change will be stifled. However, if you see God as the sum total of all the creative energy of the universe, then that type of ideological perspective could be interpreted as allowing for change. In other words, God’s energy manifested itself a certain way in Muhammad’s time, but is manifesting itself differently today. Energy is in a contant state of flux.
I don’t know all of the intricacies of Islam, so I can’t speak knowledgably about the ideological foundations. However, it makes sense that to allow for change you have to begin to adopt ideological views that will permit change, while preserving the core of religious beliefs.
Kawther wrote, “There can be no denying that much of the ills women face in our societies can be blamed on Islam.”
Really, have you studied the treatment of women in non-Muslim countries?
For example, see this article about Guatemla: http://www.guernicamag.com/features/299/the_price_of_life_1/
I’ll quote a part of it here:
Nissim!
I don’t think there is any way to reform Islam. Muhammad (the so-called prophet) made it absolutely clear that the Koran is the perfect word of Allah.
Koran 2:2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not – and ye can never do it – then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
Nothing in the book can be altered unless you want to burn in the Fire.
Magnus (and Nissim, for further information):
Check this: Womens’ rights and islamic laws
Magnus,
You almost seem to relish thinking about Muslim reformers burning in Hell
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are millions of Muslims who are reforming Islam, regardless of whether the media chooses to report about it or not.
http://www.crescentlife.com/contents.htm
I feel it necessary to point out the incident with the Polygamist sect in Texas and the 400+ children who were removed from its grounds.
I see no difference between either sordid incident, and the twisted warped view these individuals have of their ‘religion’.
Magnus, I believe you’ll find that there are contradictory statements in the Quran, as there are in most religious texts.
Actually, although I am no scholar of Islam, the first part of the Quran seems a little bit more lenient, and more tolerant of non-believers, and as the text progresses, things turn a bit tougher. Some scholars attribute this change to to the evoloving career of the Prophet. Perhaps after a while things got tougher for him, and this change of attitude was reflected in some of his thinking.
The reason this is important is: If you can show contradicitons in this most holy of Books, then that would seem to buttress the notion that it is possible for views to change over time, just as they did for the Prophet himself.
Once again, I do not mean any disrespect to the religion. I am simply pointing out that change is inevitable, and all religions must come to terms with the fact that people evolve, and that belief systems have to evolve with them to remain relevant.
And Tamara, you are absolutely right to point out that here in America we have sexual deviancy of all persuasions. I guess the main difference is that we are free to talk about it, and at times, to even do something about it. But a lot of it goes under the radar screen, and the victims continue to suffer in the shadows.
path
from
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-161917760.html
RJ,
“Kawther wrote, “There can be no denying that much of the ills women face in our societies can be blamed on Islam.””
“Really, have you studied the treatment of women in non-Muslim countries?”
I’ve never understood this type of logic RH, and I suspect, no one else does either.
patb!
RJ: “Really, have you studied the treatment of women in non-Muslim countries?”
patb: “I’ve never understood this type of logic RH, and I suspect, no one else does either.”
It is the logic necessary to stay Muslim.
@ patb & Magnus:
the logic behind RandallJones argument is clear. he points out that mis-treating the women is not an exclusive feature of Muslim countries, and may be seen in much of the under-developed countries (or pripheral nations, if you are used to this term). thus he is probably trying to demonstrate that Islam just not plays a passive role in this case.
edit: just plays a passive role… sorry.
RandallJones!
RJ: “You almost seem to relish thinking about Muslim reformers burning in Hell
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are millions of Muslims who are reforming Islam, regardless of whether the media chooses to report about it or not.”
No, I do not relish about that, I’m just pointing out that it is a mission impossible. Those who try to reform Islam don’t even know their own religion. It ought to be embarrassing for them.
Nissim!
ND: “Magnus, I believe you’ll find that there are contradictory statements in the Quran, as there are in most religious texts.”
Yes, sure there are; but actually, there are likely fewer contradictions within the Koran than within e.g. the Bible.
ND: Actually, although I am no scholar of Islam, the first part of the Quran seems a little bit more lenient, and more tolerant of non-believers, and as the text progresses, things turn a bit tougher.
If you by “the first part of the Quran” mean the very first chapter (which consists of only 7 short verses) out of 114 chapters you are right.
Koran 1:1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
1:3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:4 Master of the Day of Judgment,
1:5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
1:6 Show us the straight path,
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
But if you also include chapter 2 you are simply wrong. Please read it and get back with your thoughts about it; you can for example find it here in three translations: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html.
Mohammad Memarian!
MM: “the logic behind RandallJones argument is clear.”
Well, I think both patb and I understand what he is saying, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the logic we thought was corrupt. How can mistreatment of women in other religions or cultures become a defence of Islam?
It’s true, there are many voices in the Muslim world who are calling for the reformation of Islam. In fact, I find it quite laughable when a person whose sole contribution was an awkwardly phrased article/book is hailed Islam’s Luther in the (Western) media. The movement dates back years and years ago, and continues to this day.
And RJ, while it’s true that all societies and cultures have their share of misogyny, in our societies Islam is used as a source of justification (it should be mentioned though that Many practices have absolutely no Islamic basis (‘honour’ killings for instance), while others are built on shaky grounds (FGM for instance)).
@ Magnus
1- by the “first part of the Quran”, Nissim probably means a historical
view, i.e. those chapters and verses which were revealed sooner. thats a
famous analysis which states that as long as Muhammad was living in
Mecca, the verses were more tolerant of non believers; and as soon as he
gathered some forces and made his mind in Medina, the verses got so
tough.
2- “How can mistreatment of women in other religions or cultures become a
defence of Islam?”
who said that A’s wrong doing maybe justified by the B’s wrong doing? the
argument that RJ is coming up with (and I find it reasonable) may be
articulated in this way: we find a common problem in many societies (Muslim and else) whose only common feature is being under-developed, and this common feature may explain why that common problem is in place. now, its reasonable to conclude that this “common feature” is the real cause of that problem.
in other words: though mis-treating of women is often justified by Islam, Islam is not the cause of mis-treating women in Muslim countries; i.e. even if these people were not Muslims, they would still mis-treat women, for the real cause (being under-developed) would be still in place. therefore, even if you eliminate Islam in these societies, mis-treating the women will still appear in a scale not much lower than now.
got it?
Muhammad!
Let’s wait for Nissim to explain what is meant with “the first part of Quran” in this case.
You agree to that Islam is justifying mistreatment of women. Wouldn’t removing that justification make the same mistreatment less likely to take place?
MM: “therefore, even if you eliminate Islam in these societies, mis-treating the women will still appear in a scale not much lower than now.”
I do think you’re wrong here, but let us presume that you’re not: Wouldn’t only this little improvement in the treatment of women be worth it?
I would also like to read not only Nissim’s but also your comments on the second chapter of the Koran.
MM,
This thread started about an 8 year old married girl.
I disagree with your comment that this is not related to/supported by Islam and is similar to abuse in other places/cultures.
I fully agree that similar abuses exist around the world.
I hold forth that legislation in Islamic countries, underwritten and based upon Islamic scripture, that allow girls to be married at 9 years of age or their first menstration is abuse of children.
There is a difference when comparing child abuse as an illegal/legal activity.
“according to Sharia, a father is allowed to give away his pre-pubescent girl in marriage, without her consent – provided he believes her ‘husband’ to be a pious, reliable man” .. hmmm…. a pious,reliable man ??!? I have a daughter about that age. I can’t think of a man pious,reliable enough to as much as look at her.
Modern Muslims trying to mix cultural practices of their prophets era and the religion is the reason their is a whole mess in the Muslim world. Morons like this father needs to realize this… well more like as a society need to educate themselves on the implication of the cultural practices of an ancient times and treat these as such…
Magnus said:
honestly, I would defend ‘removal of Islam’ if it were the only possible option to solve such problems. but somethings are wrong with that ‘if’:
1- Islam is compatible with modern interpretations, then it is not necessary to eliminate it so as to bring a new value system.
2- Even if the instant romval of Islam were possible (which is indeed no more likely to happen than finding a unicorn), the people would continue to do what they were used to.
3- this little improvement would happen in the expense of what? think about it.
Magnus, why did you pick a chapter for me to read that has 286 verses? Are you trying to kill me or something?
I get the general gist of the chapter. “You better believe or else.” It’s not that different from some of the harsh language in the Old Testament. Every religion is predicated on a certain belief system, to the exclusion of all others. But that doesn’t mean that there is no chance for an Islamic reformation. The Catholic Church was also pretty tough, including a 600 year Inquisition, but people Protested, and new ideas emerged.
Now as I explained, I am not a scholar of the Quran. The kind of passages I am referring to, when I talk about “the first part,” are the ideas that were revealed to Muhammad during the early part of his career. On one occasion, for example, he restated the Golden Rule: “None among you is a believer until he wishes for his brothers and sisters what he wishes for himself.” Every action has moral significance and Muslims are required to do good and forbid evil.(Sura 3:104) Moral actions are those which result in justice.(Sura 4:58)Both faith and good deeds are required for salvation.(Sura 2:23) On one occasion Muhammad admonished, “Extremes should be avoided: follow the middle path, the way of balance.”
In his farewell sermon Muhammad advised: don’t steal, don’t hurt anyone, don’t charge interst, treat your wives well (as your partners, believ it or not), don’t befriend people of bad character. In Sura 5:27-34 the Quran states that to kill a person is equivalent to killing all humankind, and to save a person is like saving all humandkind.
And believe it or not, Magnus, Muhammad even advocated on behalf of religiou tolerance, “To each community among you, we have prescribed a law and an open way. If God had willed, he could have made of you one people. But he wished to test you in that which he gave to you. So strive with each other in good deeds.”(Sura 5:48)
So Magnus, my point is simple: there is plenty to work with in Islam to bring people together. The fact is, that during the Golden Age of Islam, Muslims treated Jews a lot better than Christians treated Jews. Maimonides, one of Judaism’s greatest scholars, emerged under Muslim rule.
Islam gives us the same menu that life, in general, gives us. We can pick and choose what makes sense to us. How we choose will make all the difference in the world and everything we know and love hangs in the balance.
Jina/MM,
Ancient Cultural practices have translated themsleves into present day law that allows adult males to marry children. This practice is supported by modern day Islam in many countries.
I’m not saying ‘out with Islam’, I’m saying there are issues with Islam that lead to/support/condone state sanctioned child abuse.
Nissam, the truest comment you made is ‘you are not a scholar of Islam’. Trading one verse from the Torah or New Testiment against a verse from the Quran is pointless without a solid general knowledge of the history of the works and a study of each. You’ll also need a solid understanding of the Hadiths.
In any religion basically unknown to you ‘a little knowledge is dangerous’ and I am not being snooty as I used to do the same.
Seems to me that a pervert is a pervert irregardless of race, religion, culture, geographic region or sex. Evil is out there. Trying to assign that or to justify that with any of the aforementioned causes is simply bullshit. Twisted individuals that prey on children just plain (no shit)need to be stopped, anywhere and any time because it is evil. Dear God, that crap is ugly and I don’t understand it at all. I would definitely “stone” one of those!!! This issue really riles me up.
patb, I will grant you that I am not familiar with the Quran or the Hadiths. But even so, I am willing to bet that there are passages which make sense, and passages which don’t. This is the case with all religions. Can’t a reformation be structured based on the passages which make sense? Or do we need a PhD to be able to say that?
Nissam,
Make sense to whom?
Actually, all religions that I am familiar with believe their ‘books’ to be the word of God and therefore incorruptable.
One could argue, based upon your point of view, that if God does not ‘make sense’ then he is not God.
Religions can reform on the ‘practicing’ of worship but not on the basic tenets of that faith.
Simply put one cannot approach a religion like a salad bar picking and choosing to apply this rule but ignoring the ones you don’t like.
When studied, I’ve not seen one verse of the Bible that did not make sense. Note the ‘when studied’ portion of that statement. That means ‘in context’ with the whole. The relation between the Old/New Testiment as one supports the other and the both must be understood.
No, not nec a PHD but sincere theological study based upon sound and supported documents and respected authors in their field.
Since Islam is not only a ‘faith’ but is nonsecular and to be applied to Governance, finance, etc. it will be/is much more difficult to evolve to eradicate things like we are discussing here, child abuse.
Mohammad and Nissim!
MM: “Islam is compatible with modern interpretations, [...]”
ND: “Can’t a reformation be structured based on the passages which make sense?”
No, it’s not and it can’t. Islam demands total submission to Allah and Muhammad (the so-called prophet). The Koran is the perfect word of Allah and every Muslim must believe that (see Koran 2:23 and 2:24). Muhammad/Allah left the Muslims with no chance of making selections in the text (see Koran 2:85) so as to believe and live according to the more civilised exhortations. You certainly do not need a PhD to understand that. A little reading is what it takes.
Magnus
don’t make a fool of yourselب….another “genius” who found a translation of the Quran and viola!! he is a Quran expert!!
understanding the Quran takes more than reading its translation, it requires perfect understanding of the Arabic language, historic context of verses revelation, seerah (the prophet biography) and hadith (the prophet sayings)
if Quran is not compatible with different interpretations then there wouldn’t have been four different schools of fiqh
spanky: 4+1
Spanky,
I agree that Islam has some dif interpretations and this is a good thing. Hopefully more ‘reason’ will be applied.
A rather smart man once said that Faith without reason leads to extremes.
I agree also that studying Muhammeds bio, the Hadiths and the Quran must be done to garner the appropriate knowledge to discuss Islamic issues.
My fear though is that the most hardline literal interpretation of Islamic law is being funded by the wealthiest of Arab nations.
Islamic schools in the US have been exposed for using texts from this country that still refer to Jews as pigs/apes etc. and these were used in the education of grade school children.
You have much work to do.
Magnus, and patb, I think that Spanky is on to something here. If Islam were so fixed in stone, as you both seem to suggest, how could there be four different schools of thought?
I am willing to bet that different passages in Islam are interpreted in different ways, by different people. I am also willing to bet, that even among the most religious, there are Quranic passages which are ignored because they are not palatable to the modern mind. I can’t give you examples, because I admit my inadequacy in this area. But it makes sense to me that such is the case.
In Judaism, for example, there are passages which are so loony that they are ignored even by the ultra-religious “black hatters.” In the book of Deuteronomy, in the Bible, for example, it says that if a man marries a woman, and she turns out not to be a virgin, he is to kill her on her father’s doorstep.
Now I may be wrong here, but I do not recall Jews behaving in this manner. The passage does not make any sense. So the way around it, is to interpret it in some symbolic way that does not require murder. So, for example, you could say that the passage is not to be taken literally, but figuratively, and that the thrust is to emphasize the need for sexual purity before marriage.
There is no reason why Islam could not take a similar approach. And I bet you that it already has, with regard to a great many passages. We cannot say that it can’t be done. That is nonsense. It must be done for the sake of Muslims, and for the sake of keeping the sacred religion of Islam relevant in a modern world.
I just read that the 8 year old girl was granted a divorce…..super.
Magnus wrote, “No, I do not relish about that, I’m just pointing out that it is a mission impossible. Those who try to reform Islam don’t even know their own religion. It ought to be embarrassing for them.”
Do you know any thing about Judaism or Christianity. If not learn about it here.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac12.htm#links
Path and Magnus,
It’s nice to see you concerned about women’s rights in the Muslim world. Believe it or not, there are activists in the Muslim world who are fighting for human rights. If you want to help them do something about how while the United States and its allies go around preaching human rights and democracy, they engage in regime change and support brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding.
After her family had to pay compensation
In Afghanistan, families are driven by poverty into “selling” their daughters as brides.
Poverty is at the heart of most of the world’s misery. Hopefully, if we could begin to solve that, then reason and common sense will have more significance in the affairs of humanity, and people the world over will begin to think twice about how they treat their children.
Randall,
Interesting that the Bold Block opener on that site says…
“As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism and all of the other forms of evil that exist in the Bible, nor do we believe that the Prophets of Allah Almighty, peace and blessings be upon all of them, ever committed such cruel acts that are falsely attributed to them.”…..
When this thread is about Muslim sanctioned and lawful pedophilia…
or you may try this site,
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/index.html
for a counter point
Randall,
The extrapolation on that site is rather funny really. A 1+1=13 kind of logic.
How about a common sense approach to the pedophilia issue.
All societies produce pedophiles, sad but true.
Societies and nations deal with this issue in a different manner often as a result of the cultural norms and religious traditions imbued in their societies.
Pedophilia, although it exists in Christian/Western society, is against the law and perpetrators jailed.
Pedophilia, as it exists in Islamic/Eastern societies, is sanctioned by law and religious tradition as is demonstrated in this thread.
Concerning your website, if the first basic comment displayed on the site is patently untrue why should one believe there is any veracity within?
And these rich countries are armed and funded by the USofA and other Western nations.
You guys crack me up, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same fucking root yet and you pray the same fucking god yet love killing each other. Some fucked up religion you all follow.
Morality in Western religions are fucking twisted, barbaric and uncivilized… it’s about time you fucking morons woke up and faced reality.
Jina,
“And these rich countries are armed and funded by the USofA and other Western nations”
This is true as far as the arms go, the funding comes from purchasing oil. Our awarness of the religious extremism is rather recent though. I suspect we’re trying to influence this Nation in an indirect manner politically and thru other means. How should we do that in your opinion?
“You guys crack me up, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same fucking root yet and you pray the same fucking god yet love killing each other. Some fucked up religion you all follow.”
Actually you’re incorrect in this. Judaism/Christianity have the same root and traditions and God as we understand it, Islam worships another entity through their own definition of God although the uneducated think they are the same.
“Morality in Western religions are fucking twisted, barbaric and uncivilized… it’s about time you fucking morons woke up and faced reality.”
Morality in Western Religions or morality in western society? I doubt the first is scholastically supportable but will concede a bit to the second as it seems to be the nature of mankind world wide hence the need for a higher moral code, faith in God and an attempt to emmulate those ideals expressed by Jesus (in my case).
What ‘reality’ are you speaking about, define it please? Your use of expletives really detracts from you message, whatever it might be.
path, wrote, “Concerning your website, if the first basic comment displayed on the site is patently untrue why should one believe there is any veracity within?”
The website gives you the verse numbers of the Bible to find the quotes.
path wrote, “The extrapolation on that site is rather funny really. A 1+1=13 kind of logic.”
Your concept of morality is funny. You spend all your time criticizing Muslims, yet you say nothing, you have done nothing about Western countries who have killed millions, exploit the labor and exploit the natural resources not only of the Muslim world, but the non-Muslim world as well.
Jina wrote, “And these rich countries are armed and funded by the USofA and other Western nations.”
Its the other way around, the Saudis invest trillions of dollars in the United States. The United States makes billions of dollars selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, even though the Saudis do not have the qualified personnel to operate the weapons. Saudi Arabia is just a storage place for the weapons the United States uses in its military interventions in the Middle East.
Jina wrote, “You guys crack me up, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same fucking root yet and you pray the same fucking god yet love killing each other. Some fucked up religion you all follow.”
This is not unique to Middle Eastern religions. See http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
patb, you must live under a fucking rock… you deny the facts and make bs up to cover your own uneducated state of mind. You realy try to convince yourself that you with little to no knowledge anything you are talking about… I think I am gona go have a much more interesting debate with a grass field… I hear they don’t pull shit out of their ass and present it as facts.
Randall,
I know the verses and have read them and the allusions made on that site are illusions. Read the answering Islam retorts.
My point was that the opening printed comment about Muslims hating pedophilia and the issue we’re discussing that which Islamic law supports.
Jina,
Do you eat with that mouth?
What facts? Because you say so, your opinion(s) are all factual because they are yours. No other facts exist. Everyone that disagrees with you is uneducated and lives under rocks?
p.s. cursing, pouting etc. is not debating.
Whatever the Qur’an says or doesn’t say, the point is that a girl of 8 is a CHILD and not a woman to be raped by a disgusting pervert of 30. And for the people above who are arguing about who is critisizing who: paedophiles and perverts are being critisized here and the reaction would be the same, at least on my part, if they were Christian or of whatever other religion. I personally do not believe in organised religion. Are you going to base your lives on books such as the bible and the Qur’an? or are going to live by principles that feel right to you as a person? are you going to create wars for the sake of :”my God is better than yours” or are you going to live in peace? little girls belong at school, in the playground, within their families, not on some perverts bed.
Yes, people who belong to other religions do go to war, but they don’t goto war for most part in the name of that religion. They don’t’ goto war spread that religion. They sure as hell don’t prey to the same god and wage war with one another for that very god. That is the difference between them and Western religions.
Tasha, you are inclined to ingnore religion and to use your common sense to decry pedophilia. And you wonder why many of us try to work our arguments through the maze of religious thought.
The reason is that most of the world is pretty religious. If you don’t use the right terminology, and if you don’t appeal to their sense of right and wrong, as written down in holy scripture, then they’re not going to listen. And if they don’t listen then you’re not going to get anythwhere. And if you don’t get anywhere, then it doesn’t much matter what you think, or even if you’re right or wrong, because it will be like talking to the wall.
So you do have to penetrate the religious mind, and to find a way to move that mind, even slightly, in the direction of what makes sense.
You can get to the truth without being religious. But if you want religion to reflect the truth, you have no choice but to talk their language, and to appeal to their sensibilities, in a way they can relate to.
Tasha,
“I personally do not believe in organised religion. Are you going to base your lives on books such as the bible and the Qur’an? or are going to live by principles that feel right to you as a person?”
What if feeling right to you as a person invlolves having sex with young girls/boys? There are organizations that espouse that ideal with a basic tenent that ‘everything is relative’.
Do you believe in unorganized religion? Are you a Christian/Muslim that kind of believes in God and you make it up as you go along or do you believe in a doctrine of sorts?
Where does a moral compass come from?
What constitutes a moral compass.
Jina,
Just because Eastern Fundamentalism doesn’t get broadcast in the mainstream media, the way the Abrahamic religions, especially Islam does, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Did you read the Michal Parenti article? I’ll quote part of it here:
The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.
In 1792, many Kagyu monasteries were confiscated and their monks were forcibly converted to the Gelug sect (the Dalai Lama’s denomination). The Gelug school, known also as the “Yellow Hats,” showed little tolerance or willingness to mix their teachings with other Buddhist sects. In the words of one of their traditional prayers: “Praise to you, violent god of the Yellow Hat teachings/who reduces to particles of dust/ great beings, high officials and ordinary people/ who pollute and corrupt the Gelug doctrine.” 8 An eighteenth-century memoir of a Tibetan general depicts sectarian strife among Buddhists that is as brutal and bloody as any religious conflict might be. 9 This grim history remains largely unvisited by present-day followers of Tibetan Buddhism in the West.
Path wrote, “I know the verses and have read them and the allusions made on that site are illusions. Read the answering Islam retorts.”
From what I’ve seen from the “Answering Islam” Website, it does not address the most controversial verses of the Bible the way “Answeirng Christianity” addresses the controversial verses in the Quran.
Anyway, so the “Answering Islam” website has retorts regarding criticism of Christianity and the “Answering Christianity” website has retorts regarding criticism of Islam.
My point is that there are many moderate Muslims who are reforming Islam but the mainstream media does not give them the same representation in the mainstream media as they do the Muslim extremists. The funny thing is often you will hear/read many in the mainstream media asking where are the Moderate Muslims to condemn the violent acts of the extremists, but at the same time, these very same media outlets refuse to interview moderate Muslims who speak up against terrorism and human rights violations. In addition, the mainstream does not discuss the collaboration of certain Western countries with Islamic extremists, to the detriment of the vast majority of the Muslim world.
You, magnus, and people who think like you want to spend most of the time pointing out the wrongs of the Muslim world, but have nothing to say about how while Western countries preach human rights and democracy, they engage in regime change and support brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding.
Randall,
I agree that the US media reports primarily the negative that focuses on radical Islam. The US media reports primarily the negative on anything so don’t feel like the Lone Ranger. Most news organizations do.
I know there are those attempting to moderate the hard line Islam, why else would I be blogging on Islamic sites.
I know there are many millions of great Muslims out there too who want the same things I do, life, liberty, happiness and safety for their families, a job, a roof and a solid community.
I think the problem with the radical/moderate visibility is that the radicals seem to have more unity/momentum. I’m not just speaking of the violent terrs but of the SA money/wahabi element. It also seems to me, an outsider, that many of the men of power, Imams, Mullah’s, Sheiks are older men steeped in hard line conservative Islam and they write the rulings. Many of the immigrant Imams that come to the US seem out of step, or so I’m told, with the community as it relates to the political and everyday law issues (wife control etc) and attempt to sway the community to their hard line position. I’ve never heard politics in my Christian Church (not Rev. Wrights congregation) and would not be happy to hear a pol position.
I hope the reformers are successful, the mainstream media may not report fairly but they won’t hinder you either. The only ones that will hinder you are other Muslims of a more conservative view. They will call you kafr, crusader and anything else they can to embarass you back into line. It’s an uphill fight.
Check out some of the so called Jihadi websites and tell me what you think, fight them, blog on their sites as a Muslim. I don’t think moderates are being aggressive enough. I think they are basically intimidated and afraid of taking the fight to the rads themselves and just blog away with each other.
Good luck though, sincerely.
patb, you ask, What constitutes a moral compass? For me, the ultimate moral compass in the universal moral compass of common sense.
Common sense is the collective wisdom born of shared experience. It is common because it is universal. It makes sense because it is logical, rational, and self-evident. Common sense is the intuitive wisdom to conform our thoughts and actions to universally shared truths and values. And there are such universal principles.
One such universal value is The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you. This rule is written into every major religion on earth. Why? Because it makes sense, that’s why. It makes as much sense as mathematics. Two plus two equals four, here and in China as well.
When you talk about what makes sense, you talk about “feelings” and you provocatively ask, what if you feel that it is OK to molest kids? Well, for me it’s not about feelings. It’s about what makes sense.
In our fractured world, common sense is the common denominator. And what makes sense can be discerned universally, staring with what it takes to bring a child into the world, and to make sure that he or she lives a good life. That type of logic will inform our thinking, and will reveal to us that we love and protect our kids, not molest them. That lesson is univeral, and cannot be compromised rationally by religious thinking to the contrary.
I do believe that most religions, most of the time, are consistent with what makes sense. But when they veer off course, we can always bring them back to universal notions of common sense and get them back on track.
RandallJones,
Your example is close to 40 year old, and it’s regarding one religion and a rare example in modern context, but it still doesn’t explain what I was asking for. I asked when was last time one Eastern religion waged war on another over religion. I never denied that Eastern religious fundamentalism exist. I know that especially in Tibetan Buddhism, prior to the Communist invasion, Tibet was much like the Christian world under the Dark Ages ever since Kabuli Khan created the order of the Lamas and created a theocracy in Tibet.
I come from a Buddhist country where everyone from Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Christians with indigenous religious groups live without killing each other for religion. I am one of those religious minorities in that country. Never in our history have we ever seen a war that could be classified as “religious war”.
Kind of fucked up how in this thread, I would expect at least few of you to say something about the little girl who was raped and abused, yet all I see is politics… you are all assholes.
I agree, no one cares about the little girl who is suffering and whose life has been ruined. Instead, you keep talking about religion and politics like it’s going to help or change anything.
Jina and Esra’a, I think the thread turned to focus on religion, law, and politics because those are the only avenues that – if changed – would help this girl and others like her. If you have a better solution, I’m sure we’d all love to hear it. In fact, for me, it’s hearing these very stories that stir my heart and force me to keep hoping that we can change something. Otherwise, what’s the point?
Nissim, your theory of common sense reminds me a lot of what Pope Benedict XVI has been saying in his address to the UN this morning. (I’m paraphrasing): “Human rights find the basis in natural law, in the heart of man….a variety of points of view should not forget the individual….a vision of life firmly rooted in religion can help aid in peace….promoting human rights is the most effective strategy for overcoming differences…expressing community between persons.”
I’m not Catholic, but as a self-titled human rights activist, this really hits home with me – it’s not about what religion one is, or what one “feels,” as Tasha said – its about what a collective society has recognized as right, and this can be interpreted and strengthened through religion if we all return to the basic principles of respect, tolerance, and freedom that are in fact in all religions.
Very nicely put, Jessica.
I agree with you that we talk about religion because we have this little girl in our hearts. We can’t touch her directly, but maybe if we straighten out our thinking, we can “touch” her indirectly and make her life a little better.
I like what the Pope said, “Human rights find the basis in natural law.” Yes. And natural law is as accessible to us, as it was to our ancient ancestors, the cavemen, who were able to survive for two million years by using basic notions of human decency and common sense.
Even to the most casual observer it is obvious that we share much more in common than divides us. I don’t know why we have such a propensity to create so many artifical divisions between ourselves. As the world progresses, we are coming to the point where we will face global problems, which will require global solutions. If we are already coming together economically and technologically, we had better find a way to come together ideologically as well. We can no long afford to believe what we want to believe. It is time, before time runs out, to believe in what makes sense.
And don’t tell me that common sense is relative. It’s not. There are principles which are univerally applicable, like The Golden Rule, The Golden Mean, and The Greatest Good. These are principles which find their way to almost all religious traditions; not out of coicidence, but because they are as universally applicable and accessible as mathematics.
We owe it to ourselves to protect this little girl. We can only do that by thinking straight, and backing up our thinking with some substance on the ground.
Seems like the age where retards in the West start dating… 12 is actually normal.
???
You say Jewish/Chrisitan god and Muslim god are not the same. Now all of a sudden what I say is an opinion? WTF… my fact comes from the Quran not my arss. You are the one who is trying hard to BS your way to prove YOUR OPINION with BS from your arse. Give me a fucking break… or just stay under that rock… don’t’ come out… if oyu want to come out… at least learn some thing.
Do you have a source for that?
I bet everyone is sorry for the little girl (and others like her) and hopes the rapist gets a sentence that’ll scare others like him. But Jessica is right: nothing any of us can do about this one case. What we can do is try to change te situation that allowed it in the first place.
Jina,
No one stopped you from giving advice how we are supposed to change things.
What has cursing and calling people named helped this girl?
The girl is being helped by lawyer and human rights activist Shatha Nasser.
Jina wrote, “Your example is close to 40 year old, and it’s regarding one religion and a rare example in modern context, but it still doesn’t explain what I was asking for. I asked when was last time one Eastern religion waged war on another over religion.”
But I do not see the current conflict as a religious war, I consider it a war over natural resources, land and power. Some people are using religious language in their speeches, but the driving force of the conflict is not religion.
I saw a film that was showing images of the Vietnam war and there was a picture of American soldier that had written on his helmet “Kill Gooks for God,” Does that mean that the Vietnam was a religious war?
Just so all yu know, this 8 year old marrying 30 is not Muslim thing… goto South America, Eastern Europe, South Asia, South East Asia, Africa and even North America, you’ll see similar cases. Ones again the uneducated ignorant Westerns notion that this is a Muslim thing amazes me.
Offer realistic solutions insteaded of BSing about religion. Educate these uneducated people. No I am not talking about teaching them how to count or write, I am talking about teaching about basic human right related issues, like how the Communist during the Communist revolution did in China. Chinese those days were just like this father, they would give away their 8 year old dauthers as either wives or sex slaves. This kind of education put an end to the backward practices Chinese had.
Teach these fathers that this little girl is human being and not an animal.
Stories like this is what makes me want to nuke the fuck out of this fucking world. That will solve all our problems… no?
Nissim Dahan wrote, “One such universal value is The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you. This rule is written into every major religion on earth. Why? Because it makes sense, that’s why. It makes as much sense as mathematics. Two plus two equals four, here and in China as well.”
So why is it when I point out that while Western countries preach human rights and democracy, they go around engaging in regime change and supporting brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding, you try to rationalize this by claiming it is being done for a noble cause.
SOURCE? WTF… when i was in grade 6… that’s what happened… I was among one of those who never went on a date… then when we went to middle school we even had some whores… you know the ones who would sleep with anyone… it got worse in high school.
Now I hear its much much more worse now…
Last time I checked 13 or 14 was the average age when girls lose their virginity in the United States and Canada.
People who live in denial annoy me.
Ohh god… its the same in United States you ignorant fuckwit…
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070605171829AAY1uJQ&show=7
Jina,
Your ignorence abounds.
Ok, to stop Muslims from marrying 8 year olds you must do away with the traditions based upon the prophets life as being valid today. The verses in the Quran about the worth of a woman verses a man must be construed as being ancient. Does that help.
We’ve all commented about young girls being abused elsewhere but these issues in the ‘ignorent West’ are against the law and punishable whereas in your culture supported by tradition, religion and perfectly legal.
I feel for the young girl but feelings don’t cut it. If you want change, change the laws.
Your emotional cussing outbursts are meaningless and it makes it hard to take you seriously as you remain childlike yourself.
Excerpts from your debate;
“Some fucked up religion you all follow.”
“it’s about time you fucking morons woke up and faced reality.”
” you must live under a fucking rock”
“I hear they don’t pull shit out of their ass and present it as facts”
“yet all I see is politics… you are all assholes.”
“Stories like this is what makes me want to nuke the fuck out of this fucking world”,
When one debates in this manner the crassness is all that remains and you appear an emotional uneducated dolt.
If you just wanted bloggers to feel sorry for the girl and opine what good does that do? Ind here attempted to discuss the roots of the problem that lead to the situation.
Despite the insults, I would have to side with Jina here in pointing out that much of what patb is saying boils down to moral superiority and the tedious arrogance that he loves to portray here so much. We have to change the laws? Thanks for pointing out the obvious and missing our 2-years of discussion on this website as to how. And um, no thanks, not with your unwanted and unappreciated military interference which you pride yourself on once being a part of.
I’m not sure why or how this thread escaped the moderators. Hm.
Path wrote, “I hope the reformers are successful, the mainstream media may not report fairly but they won’t hinder you either. The only ones that will hinder you are other Muslims of a more conservative view. They will call you kafr, crusader and anything else they can to embarass you back into line. It’s an uphill fight.
Check out some of the so called Jihadi websites and tell me what you think, fight them, blog on their sites as a Muslim. I don’t think moderates are being aggressive enough. I think they are basically intimidated and afraid of taking the fight to the rads themselves and just blog away with each other.
Good luck though, sincerely.”
By the I am not Muslim, I am an atheist.
Your are right in one aspect that regardless of what the media reports there will be Muslims fighting for human rights.
But you are wrong in another aspect that what the mainstream media reports does affect the progress of development of human rights of in the Muslim world. Actually not only does it affect the Muslim world, but affects the development of the non-Muslim world as well.
When the media constantly feeds their viewers and readers with the negative aspects of Muslims, it rationalizes the military and political actions of Western countries and Israel. The media leaves out how these countries have collaborated with Muslim extremists, the media leaves out how Western countries have toppled regimes (even democratically elected ones) to the detriment of the people.
Regarding the Jihadi websites, there is not shortage of non-Muslims that are filled with hate and misinformation about Muslims.
It’s telling how people who complain about Muslim extremists have nothing to say about how the United States accepts trillions of dollars of investments from the Saudis and sells billions of dollars worth of weapons to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia does not have the qualified personnel to operate the weapons. Saudi Arabia is just a storage place for the weapons the United States uses in its military interventions in the Middle East..
To show how the media affects the progress of a country look at India. This mainstream media always praises it as the largest democracy in the world. You will see some negative reporting about the caste system, but it doesn’t get the large amount of negative reporting that the Muslim world does, even though India has persecution of religious minorities, oppression of women, child marriages, slavery, a malnutrition rate worse than sub-Saharan Africa, an AIDS rate that is close to, if it has not already surpassed that of sub-Saharan Africa and anti-Semitism. We all know about Muslims that fought in Hitler’s army but how many people know about the Hindus that fought in Hitler’s army? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm
Are you aware that Mein Kempf is a best seller in India? Also, the Hindu nationalist state government of Gujarat issued a textbook that praised Hitler. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711475.stm
The negative aspects of the Muslim world are used to argue against normalizing relations with Muslim countries and to justify certain military actions.
In the meanwhile, even though India has many negative aspects, The United States and Israel have a friendly relationship with India, this helps to promote trade, which in turn helps to develop the infrastructure of the country. So the Indians are not collectively punished the way it is done with the Middle East.
Some anonymous people on an answers.yahoo question about dating?
It’s the forced marriage thing, too. I’m guessing that her dad signed paperwork for her since she was kid. If she was older, could she have refused?
What can the guy be charged with?
Elephant,
That’s nice that you are thinking about punishments for the man who married the 9 year old.
But if you are living in the West you should also be discussing the collective punishment that Western nations give to poor/weak countries, even when they are doing something write. LIke the United States did to Yemen.
Source: http://www.fff.org/comment/com0309q.asp
“It’s telling how people who complain about Muslim extremists have nothing to say about how the United States accepts trillions of dollars of investments from the Saudis and sells billions of dollars worth of weapons to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia does not have the qualified personnel to operate the weapons. Saudi Arabia is just a storage place for the weapons the United States uses in its military interventions in the Middle East..”
I agree that the business links between SA and the US are strong. The US no longer stores military hardware for its own use in SA, that ended some years ago and the equipment SA buys is for their own use.
Due to the cost of oil, and our consumption of it, we need to sell/trade with SA and there is no economical way around it.
I believe our Govt. would love to see SA stop exporting wahabiism, allow more freedom to its people etc., but how do we accomplish that or support that? The UN possibly, it’s the same problem Esra pointed out so succinctly in her cheerleading message, we know it’s a problem but how to assist the change in a foreign govt. I believe that will have to come from within SA and most countries by themselves, by the hands of their own people.
We have normalized relations with many Muslim countries but not based upon the fact that they are Muslim, it’s based upon their/our mutual interests.
It’s interesting as the US gets castigated for being too involved in foreign govts. and at the same time castigated for not doing enough to influence foreign govts.
Esra,
I wish the troops in Iraq could come home tomorrow and had never set foot in the country. A mistake. Saddam is much better than Mooky. Sadly, if we leave tomorrow the place will implode.
I’ve no problem wacking the Taliban/AQ though and would see that thru.
I’d happily support leaving the ME to itself except for commerce.
You may fix or not fix your systems as they are yours and imposed by Muslims on Muslims. It would be superior and arrogant of me to presume otherwise.
Talking and blogging is a good thing for change but at some point one must actually do something. The world is full of talkers but there is a dearth of doers.
Randall,
One quick note. I spent the last two years overseas and watched alot of ME news. It was basically the same as you report about the MSM in the US but from their point of view.
All of the bad news about the US/Israel and pos news about their countries, Palestine/Palestinians etc. granted, most of their news is state controlled/censored but still the flip side of what you recount.
I’d also say there is more fairness in our news stream than theirs as at least an alternative opinion is allowed. I’ve heard more critisism of the Pope and Catholics by the MSM recently than any ganging up on Islam/Muslims.
Of course terr events will be broadcast but I see CAIR on TV all of the time for a counterpoint and never saw a counterpoint on Al Jazeera or the other state controlled news channels.
Just a thought.
Actually, in our region, talking is doing. People die for their “talking” and “blogging.” They get tortured, arrested, sometimes even hanged. So don’t talk to me about having “no balls” to do something – people on this forum are risking their lives trying to circumvent censorship and making people aware of all kinds of oppression, and that’s more than what you can say. So, once again, spare us.
From the reports I’ve read, the marriage contract Nojoud was made to sign stated that the marriage would only be consummated at the age of 18. However, her “husband” began applying pressure, and demanding his “wife”.
Her father felt compelled to acquiesce (I suppose the authorities wouldn’t have been of much help), as his eldest daughter was abducted, and forced to marry her abductor
Esra,
Fair point on that and I concede.
As for me, no, I’ve risked my life for my beliefs on numerous occassions.
Even though we mainly disagree on most things I do applaud your attitude and work.
I wish you success.
No, its gets castigated because it commits war crimes and no U.S. high level government official is put on trial for it. The United States demands sanctions against countries for the same (or worse) crimes that the U.S. government have committed.
The U.S. was able to get the international community to place sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program because it would be a danger to Israel, yet the United States has not placed sanctions against Saudi Arabia for spreading wahabbism; and this is the country where most of the alleged 9/11 hijackers came from.
We won’t know if that’s really true until the next war. Right now Saudi Arabia is very dependent on the U.S. for protection.
I don’t doubt that. It’s only human nature to be biased against the other, but the matter of fact the Untied States/Israel has caused more deaths, destruction of infrastructure, fueling of violence, and forcefully meddling in politics in the Middle East than the other way around. In addition U.S/Israel media point of view is spread more to the rest of world than the point of view of the Middle East.
DO you think any U.S. high level government officials should go on trial for any of the illegal actions they have done in Iraq? OR are the laws against killing and destroying infrastructure, or using chemical weapons against people not applicable to people outside of the United States?
Randal,
We try our own when a war crime is discovered.
Interestingly Iran is still enriching weapons grade uranium and will dev. a nuclear capability.
Wars between Nation States are not by definition “illegal”, war is the final degree of political discourse. The UN resolutions and lack of enforcement etc. we were still in a ‘ceasefire status’ with Iraq from the 1st Gulf War and enforcing no fly zones. You are being to simplistic.
Last I checked Saddam started this ball rolling by invading Kuwait, if that event had not happened we’d not be there today.
Israel can execute modern warfare much better than her enemies hence the argument is flat as the Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians and Palestinians would like nothing better than to level Israel as they have tried to do since ’48. Their inability to do so or create more catastophic results is only due to inability not some altruistic desire.
We’ve convicted senior officers of poor oversight etc. but the circumstances do not warrant your argument, when you go to war people get killed and infrastructure destroyed. US forces do the best they can to limit collateral damage.
What chem weapons are you speaking of?
path wrote, “We try our own when a war crime is discovered..”
That’s why the U.S. continues to commit war crimes against poor/weak countries; there are no real consequences for the decision makers.
path wrote, “Last I checked Saddam started this ball rolling by invading Kuwait, if that event had not happened we’d not be there today.”
Last time I checked the former U.S. puppet (Sadam Hussein, had gotten the okay from the U.S. before invading Kuwait.
path wrote, “We’ve convicted senior officers of poor oversight etc. but the circumstances do not warrant your argument, when you go to war people get killed and infrastructure destroyed. US forces do the best they can to limit collateral damage.”
It’s so easy to be understanding of the “poor oversight” when it is not happening where you live. The Iraqis are scapegoats for US foreign policy
Path wrote, “What chem weapons are you speaking of?”
This article discusses it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/15/usa.iraq
*****************************************************
Let me get back to the topic at hand, before Esra’a scolds me.
We spent so much in this topic talking about religion, then Kawthar points out in one of her comments,
SO the marriage was too bee consummated at the age of 18. He had another daughter abducted and forced to marry. So what is clearly the problem is not a cultural difference between the West and the Muslim world but of poverty and lack of law enforcement.
These sort of situations are not unique to the Muslim world and occurs in many poverty-stricken regions. Poor countries can not afford to pay law enforcement workers well so there is a high level of corruption and low level of justice. Even Western countries are usually not able to do anything about their male citizens going to Third World countries and sexually and violently exploiting children and women. Many of these poor countries, even though they may have laws against sex slavery, allow it to occur because of the money the “sex tourists” bring into the county.
Randall,
The U.S. was able to get the international community to place sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program because it would be a danger to Israel, yet the United States has not placed sanctions against Saudi Arabia for spreading wahabbism; and this is the country where most of the alleged 9/11 hijackers came from….I’m for this actually although any sanction based upon a Religion would never pass in the UN.
(Sadam Hussein, had gotten the okay from the U.S. before invading Kuwait…Totally false, the Ambasadorial level individual did not know how to respond to the question put to her by a member of the Iraqi Govt. She hemmed and hawed and reported home….The Iraqi’s took that as a Yes and invaded shortly thereafter.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/15/usa.iraq
This is ‘proof’, this one article in a UK newspaper.
I can show you 30/40 articles in Newspapers from around the world, prior to the war, based upon intel reports from numerous countries indicating Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
If it were true, willy pete, as the article points out is not classified as a chemical weapon.
In the story they ‘smoke the combatants out’ using the non toxic smoke and then use high explosive rounds.
If the US were using chem weapons everyone and their Mama would know it. AQ/Mooky’s boys would have made videos by now and they’d be up on the net.
“SO the marriage was too bee consummated at the age of 18″….well Randall, that clears that up, sell your 8 year old daughter and get a written guarantee. I wonder if the written agreement covered beatings, slavery, etc. etc.
You remember the similar story from Astan when the girl was “married” at 5, beaten daily, used as a table for her master, starved. When rescued she had burns all over her body, scars the size of softballs on her head where the hair will never grow back…..I wonder what guarantees her family got. You’re telling me there is no cultural difference between the east/west Muslim/nonmuslim world when the 8 year old was married legally at 8 years old. That is simply a ‘law enforcement’ problem because her ‘contract’ was broken.
Are you nuts???
Sorry to disappoint islamophobes, but this issue is actually not related to Islam. It did happen in a Muslim country, Yemen, but it happened first in a poor country where education is not widely available and law (here common sense) is not strictly enforced.
Just look at the stats in terms of percentage of girls married (subsequently frequently abused) before 18: Yemen is number 13 on the list. There are quite a few non-muslim countries in the list, even ahead of Yemen.
For those who have not seen the list from ICRW:
1- Niger
2-Chad
3-Bangladesh
4-Mali
5- Guinea
6-Central African Republic
7-Nepal…..not a Muslim country.
….
12-Ethiopia
13-Yemen
One thing those countries have in common: they are poor and education is not widespread. This is the real problems. However, I do agree the the Muslim community and this very site have a role to play in spreading the education within the Muslim countries on that list.
Alain,
Interesting information and I believe true that poor uneducated countries have a leaning in this way, especially when the life span of the population is low.
However, that is not the only issue we’re discussing.
We are discussing Countries that have legalized child (pre teen) brides and that is a predominate arab culture Islam supported circumstance.
SA is not an uneducated poor country but there is no legal age for marriage. Iran is not uneducated and poor but the legal age is first menstration.
My debate with Randall was the difference between illegal activity and that sanctioned by the state.
Why is stating an opinion based upon reality Islamophobic?
path wrote, “You remember the similar story from Astan when the girl was “married” at 5, beaten daily, used as a table for her master, starved. When rescued she had burns all over her body, scars the size of softballs on her head where the hair will never grow back…..”
I am not familiar with this story, but if you believe this sort of thing occurs only in Muslim countries, you are only fooling yourself. Do you propose to bomb the country to help improve human rights?
When you say Astan, are you referring to Afghanistan? This is where the United States chose to recruits and train Muslim extremists, instead of pro-democracy groups, in order to give the Soviet Union its “Vietnam?” Millions of Afghans were killed; the country’s infrastructure had been destroyed. The war facilitated the collapse of the Soviet Union, making the Untied States the number one superpower in the world. The U.S. did nothing to help reconstruct Afghanistan. But you rationalize the deaths of millions of men, women, and children.
When the United States has bombed the infrastructure of Iraq, killed hundreds of thousands of people, put a country through a sanctions where millions of people suffered, all because of a feud with former U.S. puppet Saddam Hussein, you make all sorts excuses. You fool no one with your sanctimonious hypocritical preaching.
You bring up Saudi Arabia. How come people who are so outraged with Saudi Arabia’s human rights violations have nothing to say about the trillions of dollars the Saudis invest in the United States? How come you have nothing to say about the fact that the United States makes billions of dollars selling weapons to the Saudis?
path wrote, “If the US were using chem weapons everyone and their Mama would know it. AQ/Mooky’s boys would have made videos by now and they’d be up on the net.”
On 9/11 a video of Palestinians cheering was shown and reported around the world. Israelis cheering on 9/11 was barely reported in any mainstream media outlets. So the amount of people knowing about an event is not proof of whether something is true or false.
path wrote, “’Sadam Hussein, had gotten the okay from the U.S. before invading Kuwait’…Totally false, the Ambasadorial level individual did not know how to respond to the question put to her by a member of the Iraqi Govt. She hemmed and hawed and reported home….The Iraqi’s took that as a Yes and invaded shortly thereafter.”
Here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeY05iS5iv0 ) is a documentary by Barry Lando, former 60 Minutes producer, who interviewed government officials, 16 minutes into the video it says when Saddam Hussein asked April Glaspy about Kuwait, she reassured Saddam Hussein. that the United States would not take any position regarding the border conflict with Kuwait. There was a public hearing in the United States where this issue was discussed and it was said there would not be any U.S. involvement with this issue.
“but if you believe this sort of thing occurs only in Muslim countries” of course it occurs elswhere but the legality of the initial marriage only predominately occurs in Islamic states. Child abuse is a sad universal, legal child pre teen marriage is predominately in Muslim countries.
Yup, Astan and supported the Muj initially. What pro democracy Afghan insurgents would you be talking about. There were none.
“killed hundreds of thousands of people”…I’ve heard the hundreds of thousands stuff but that’s just crap and not supportable by any means other than what you’d like to believe as it supports your opinion. Killing any noncombatant is a sad deal but overinflating casualties for political purpose is bs.
There are many anti war American reporters that would like nothing less than to report something like illegal activity/chem weapons. This conflict is not exactly under reported.
regarding the border conflict…I believe it was the border dispute and not conflict….She later said she had no Idea he was talking Invasion. I also have no problem with the war between Iraq/Iran…their choice, we didn’t instigate it and I’d have assisted the Iraqis with supplies too.
“There was a public hearing in the United States where this issue was discussed and it was said there would not be any U.S. involvement with this issue.”
What public hearing are you refering to?
Path wrote, “Yup, Astan and supported the Muj initially. What pro democracy Afghan insurgents would you be talking about. There were none.”
I believe RAWA over you and evidently there weren’t enough Muslim extremists in Afghanistan which is why the U.S. had to recruit foreign fighters from all around the world.
from
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Women/RevolAfghanWomen.html
path wrote, “I’ve heard the hundreds of thousands stuff but that’s just crap and not supportable by any means other than what you’d like to believe as it supports your opinion. Killing any noncombatant is a sad deal but overinflating casualties for political purpose is bs.”
That could be said about any statistics regarding any genocide, including the Holocaust.
path wrote, “There are many anti war American reporters that would like nothing less than to report something like illegal activity/chem weapons. This conflict is not exactly under reported.”
Much of the mainstream media (left and right) leaves out the close relationship between the U.S. before the wars. That Barry Lindo video I linked to was shown in Europe, but not in the Untied States.
path wrote, “What public hearing are you refering to?”
Did you watch the Barry Lindo video? This information appears after 16 minutes into the video.
Hi Patb,
Firstly thank you for your comment.
Secondly, what I am saying is that although I agree that many (too many) predominantly Muslim countries are affected by this terrible and unacceptable problem, I don’t think it will be solved by attacking directly the laws of those countries. The root of the problem is not in Islam or its interpretations. Nicaragua is plagued by the same problem: a horrific 43.3% of girls are married before the age of 18. There are no Muslims in Nicaragua.
The solution of the problem is in first pumping money into those poorest country, develop a free and accessible education system at the same time, then we will be able to see results in laws being amended and laws being enforced.
Attacking directly the laws won’t help as they won’t be enforced. These countries are also in the top tier of the list of corrupted countries.
I was not referring to Saudi Arabia or Iran, which are not part of the 20 worst countries. I was referring to only the twenty worst countries,(from the worst down) i.e. Niger, Chad, BanglaDesh, Mali Guinea, Central African Rep., Nepal, Mozambique, Burkina Faso, India, Ethiopia, Liberia, Yemen, Cameroon, Eritrea, Malawi, Nicaragua, Nigeria and Zambia.
I believe the problems in Saudi Arabia and Iran are different from those in Yemen. For Saudi Arabia and Iran, yes, we can talk about change of laws and interpretations of Islam. In both cases, however, I believe the solution would go through empowerment of women. Until we get goverments ready to empower women, the problem won’t be solved. There has been recent progress in the Gulf states so we can hope the wind will bring this progress to Saudi Arabia, but it won’t happen over night. I still think the problems in those 20 worst countries can be addressed more urgently though.
i am absolutly disgusted when i read thsi i really wanted to scream what kind of sick man woudl do something liek that thats is absolutly disgusting foul and HARAM and he will burn in helll, i thinks it unfair how girls have to be forced in to marriage hy shoudl they, we aren;t brought into thsi word just to get married, we have to have a career and enjoy life then marry when you fallinlove, but THIS is foul i hope that man gets stoned and teh girls family too they should all be ashmed of themselves, god will show them for stealing a young girls childhood!! SHE SHOUDL BE PLAYING TOYS not being raped by a sick 30 year old freak , he shoudl be ashmed this is disgusting, and i hope everything bad wil lhappen to that man he is sick and so is her family. its unfair, they shoudl all be in prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I am originally from IRAN and I have been married an Australian guy and currently living in Australia. I am Muslim and my husband is catholic.my family didn’t have any obligation about our marriage and they welcome my husband with an open arms.I just want to say please take IRAN out of those scandals.Despite the fact that our government in power are foolish and radical in my opinion and most of the peoples in IRAN who have the same opinion as me. WE ARE MUSLIM in majority ,although we have Jew’s and Christine as well in our country,but WE ARE PERSIANS NOT ARABS and we don’t married so young like they do.it is discuss ting and I FEEL SAD ABOUT THAT POOR GIRL.
Wonderful news – Nojoud is back in school!
“In Islam, wives are allowed to seek an annulment, provided they have a ‘valid reason’, and must pay back the dowry.” [Quote from original post by Kawthar]
I think in Quran its said, that dowry given once must not be got back even if its a heap of gold. So why should an estranged wife be forced to repay it?? After all the ‘mahar’ is like maintenance funds in case marriage gets cancelled!
Thank God, that this girl got back her childhood!
Al Ameen,
Rulings concerned with divorce are quite complex, but generally if it’s the wife who seeks the divorce, she’s expected to return her dowry.
But indeed, it’s wonderful that she’s been rescued from that hell.
Kawthar
May be that interpretation holds good when a bride wants to become independent or to marry another person. But here, for all rationale and common sense, it’s obvious that the poor 8 year old has been wronged, so it will only be an injustice if she’s demanded to pay. Somehow state will have to intervene and pay in such cases(its a good thing that there are donors and human right activists) for the time being and should try to make some rule that such injustices don’t recur.
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