“Here I thought only Muslims did this…”
April 19th, 2008Okay so we’ve all heard the stories of Muslims worldwide protesting the Prophet Muhammad cartoons published in a Danish newspaper. They say that we [the Muslims] need to respect the freedom of expression and the freedom of speech of others. and that we… well the debate continues..
But guess we Muslims wernt the only ones who get pissed of when the Prophets are shown in an inappropriate manner. There are christians out there too who would also stand up.
Christian extremists threaten violent attacks over depiction of Jesus.
Jesus orgy artwork sparks furor in Austria
VIENNA, Austria (AP) — Austrians are locked in a nationwide debate touched off by the brief display in a prestigious Roman Catholic museum of an etching that depicts Jesus Christ and his disciples having an orgy during the biblical Last Supper.
Alfred Hrdlicka’s etching of an orgy at the Last Supper has provoked strong criticism in Austria
A chastened and chagrined Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, the top churchman in this largely conservative and overwhelmingly Catholic country, has ordered the offending artwork, by sculptor Alfred Hrdlicka, removed.
But the controversy rages on, and some have likened it to the furor triggered by the Prophet Muhammad cartoons.
Exhibition curator Michael Kaufmann says he’s even seen Web postings from extremists “who have threatened to come to Vienna and blow up its museums with Molotov cocktails.”
Source
thanx to 7ijazi $P3ctaT0r for alerting me to this
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Muneeb,
It all comes down to the execution of the debate and how everyone’s rights are treated.
Certainly this man has every right to portray whatever he likes. The question is where does it deserve to be venued.
Recently in SanFransisco recently the had a Gay Jesus look alike contest. Democracy and freedom are really not ‘easy’ in that respect, it can be very hard and edgey. Bad taste, crude behavior that does not hurt others, etc are tollerated, but it is also a right to counter comment, debate, and most importantly ignore idiots that trivialize and believe in everything is relative.
As I said it is how one counters without taking away anothers freedom to their opinion.
Legislating ‘hate’ speech is a very dangerous road as what constitutes hate speech, who gets to be the arbitrator of attitude.
I’d rather fall on the side of free speech and put up with nonsense rather than have the hate speech police that may get very reactive.
People also have the right to be upset, be heard, and the sanction of popular opinion do what others would have law do.
What about monotheist religions offending non-religious people. The Qu’ran, Bible and Torah contains hate speech against non-religious people and say they will burn in hell for eternity and call them dirty, evil, etc. Should we prohibit the so-called holy books for hate speech, racism and segregation (muslims versus non-muslims, christians versus non-christians)?
“when the Prophets are shown in an inappropriate manner”…. and the definition of “inappropriate” differs I’m sure. Let’s see: “an etching that depicts Jesus Christ and his disciples having an orgy during the biblical Last Supper” Well, the Bible says nothing about an orgy (last time I looked) so it must be an ‘artisctic’ interpretation. IOW, if I were to take the Bible literally, such a picture would have nothing to do with the Jesus _I_ know. Wouldn’t bother me at all.
For some reason, I think you compare this to the infamous bomb-in-turban cartoon ? The parallel is good: bombs were not even invented in the days of the Prophet: the cartoon is _symbolical_ : “the teachings of the Prophet [in the wrong heads] can be explosive”. Agree or don’t, it’s just an opinion.
Now, which country should we boycott ?
Actually it’s hardly one cartoon – the rest were portraying the Prophet in bed with young girls, and there was another poorly drawn one making fun of the whole virgin thing. Hardly a different definition of “inappropriate,” not sure why you’re trying hard to cover this up by saying they aren’t comparable.
Yours again.
Just so we can watch you go, “arghhsdfhsh Muslims! Argh!”
Makes us all giggly.
Can’t wait to see the riots, the murders, the angry mobs around the world chanting “Death to those who insult Jesus!”
Nah, don’t worry – they don’t televise those. Doesn’t feed your paranoia enough. It’s only the Muslims, folks!
Wladimer,
If you are nonreleigious and do not believe then why would a reference to hell bother you. For you hell does not exist yet you get upset about it?
I don’t understand.
People have been depicting religious figures in obscene and bizare paintings and whatever etc. for years in the West. This is not new and usually no one gets in a uproar.
Just ignore the bad taste and they fade away. Make a lot of noise and they enjoy the publicity.
As the post said, it was about a debate not an uprising.
It is important to discuss how the media represents the issue of offensive art or speech toward religion.
When it is offensive toward Christians and Jews, the media invites moderate Christians and Jews who know the politically correct thing to say: that they are offended but we are allowed free speech.
When it is offensive to Muslims they show only the angry protests of extremists and emphasize the death threats. This only fuels the the anger of Muslims.
Remember when the American actor Mel GIbson was stopped by a police officer for drunk driving? Mel Gibson had made anti-Jewish statements such as “The Jews are responsible for all the wars?” There were condemnation by all the media outlets and politicians.
While the media loves to show Muslims protesting over the Mohammad cartoons, they they hardly ever show Muslims who protest for human rights. Then they claims that Muslims are afraid to protest against their own governments, so they protest over cartoons with the encouragement of the governments.
But look at this, here are people in Egypt protesting and the are stomping on a large poster of the President of Egypt. Why is this not being reported as much as the protest over the cartoons?
See
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2008/04/08/we-have-come-to-see-the-day/
and
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2008/04/07/aftermath/
Esra’a wrote: (emphasis mine)
This is incorrect, there was no pedophelia-themed cartoon. (feel free to browse through the cartons if you don’t believe me.)
You’re thinking of one of the cartoons fabricated by the wacky imams in order incite idiocy. The infamous “praying mohammad mounted by dog” cartoon was likewise of Imamic origin.
Just trying to dispel that old myth, I wholeheartedly agree that the abovementioned christians need to be drawn and quartered.
There are ones that were equally disturbing and sexually themed – does this not count?
Retarded Islamophobes just tend to take things way too far, and God forbid we show them that Christianity can be equally violent. See the comments here for details.
However, the moment we bring that up, the embarrassingly moronic Islamophobes do the whole “But…. but! Muslims are worse!” – and not because they sincerely believe that, no matter how much they fool their dimwitted selves. It’s only because of the mainstream outlets that they rely one, and we all know how foolish these are (well apparently not all of us; there are too many people here who rely solely on such sources for their information.) It’s too bad that no one bothers to go beyond right-wing blogs and Fox News.
We live in an increasingly disgusting and hypocritical world where bashing only ONE religion or ONE race is okay; but doing so to anyone else is “racism” or “anti-Semitism” or “hatred.” Pathetic. The stupidity of this world is overwhelming.
people are just people. and when people strongly believe in something and then feel offended some might become aggressive, regardless of what kind of religion they belong to. if you believe strongly in freedom of speech and feel your freedom is too limited you might become aggressive as well. i think media is just making a big fuss out of things by politicising religion to much and creating a division of people and a bad situation.
What Einherjar said… the 4 imams did augment the original 12 cartoons.
Esra’a: “There are ones that were equally disturbing and sexually themed – does this[the out-of-virgins cartoon] not count?” I’m surprised you find this particular one offensive, I find it the only one that’s even remotely funny. There are young men out there who blow themselves up because they are led to believe they can have carnal pleasure in heaven. That cartoon mocks gullible humans, NOT the Prophet as I see it (and I was the target audience, not you)
Do I sense some hostility here ? My only offense is living in the same country as Jyllands-Posten. I am not responsible for their action, burning the flag that I put on my children’s birthday cake is rather offensive. I do not believe I deserve that.
Back to the topic: some inappropriate GayJesus pics. No need for riots and boycotts, two words: “so,what ?” will do.
I simply do not care who the target audience is. It could be the artist’s grandmother and I could still care less. If I find something distasteful, I WILL express it. YOUR society supposedly supports such a thing. It’s legal. Within my rights to free speech. Are we saying these people shouldn’t criticize? No. But respect our right to articulate a reaction – most Muslims did not do so violently, most Muslim organizations (especially those within Europe) condemned the killings or the flag-burning that happened in our name. A whole site and petition was dedicated to apologize for what happened – signed by thousands of Muslims. Still, it is not enough. People pout and whine like there is no tomorrow about these pitiful things.
How many times do we have to say it? It is irrepresentative of us, our beliefs, values, and our culture. Please accept this and move on. We face more terrorism from our Muslim brethren than you ever will in your country (hanging? rape? torture? imprisonment? not even comparable to a burned flag); and we will always defend your rights and will do our best to prevent such things from happening in the future by continuing to protest such idiocy as loudly as possible. But you need to encourage us, and help us as well, instead of sitting around and pointing fingers, repeatedly and hatefully.
I’m always alarmed at the hypocracy of such people. They’re offended. So what? In a democracy, everyone gets offended. Criticism goes both ways. A few people decided to burn a flag and cause a riot, and suddenly, all Muslims are evil and their religion must be perished so you can live in rainbow planet with the teletubbies. How utterly simplistic – please don’t tell me you have such an overwhelmingly narrow mind. I’m sure you know better than this, and that criticism is always in order when you mock or criticize someone else. You give us your criticism quite often, deal with ours. Simple as. Why is that such a problem?!
Halalhippie wrote, “There are young men out there who blow themselves up because they are led to believe they can have carnal pleasure in heaven. That cartoon mocks gullible humans, NOT the Prophet as I see it (and I was the target audience, not you).”
There are many more men who have blown themselves up because a family member has been killed, had their homes destroyed, had their country bombed, or had a family member jailed and tortured.
How do you think people from the Third world feel when Western countries preach human rights and democracy, yet go around engaging in regime change (even of democratically ones)and supporting brutal dictators and kings who do their bidding?
Halalhippie wrote, “Back to the topic: some inappropriate GayJesus pics. No need for riots and boycotts, two words: “so,what ?” will do.”
Many Muslims felt the same way about the Muhammed cartoons, but the mainstream media chose to focus only the violent protests and death threats. No moderate Muslims were interviewed. This only helped to increase the animosity between Muslim and non-Muslims.
[ I ] “need to encourage us, and help us as well, instead of sitting around and pointing fingers, repeatedly and hatefully.” All the time, I thought I was doing jut that, trying my best to understand why religion is such a big thing in the ME, while at the same time trying to explain how religion is “no big deal” where I’m from: that drawing the Prophet/questioning Islam if you like, is NOT part of a Zionist plot to humiliate every living Muslim. If refusing to be punished for someone else’s doing is “pointing fingers, repeatedly and hatefully.” , then I really need to improve my English skills.
RandallJones: “No moderate Muslims were interviewed. This only helped to increase the animosity between Muslim and non-Muslims.” I know, I met very many.
That’s by far the most ridiculous and ignorant remark I’ve heard here in a very long time. How paranoid are you that you feel this way? Do you not read often?
You really don’t know much about the Middle East, do you? And yes dear, I mean apart from what you see on mainstream TV.
And by the way, it’s ironic people only see how certain Muslims are with their pointy fingers, but no one bothers to point out the utter stupidity of those yelling “Muslim conspiracy!” at every opportunity either. Such an argument is just as tedious and retarded. Everyone questions Islam, especially Arabs, Iranians, or ex-Muslims (or skeptical Muslims) in millions of blogs and through many ways, even within this forum. Hardly ANYONE considers it to be a “Zionist” plot. How embarrassingly unaware that you resort to such a foolish conclusion.
I’ll let you go back to your scheduled paranoia now. Pssst, Muslims are after you! *gigglez* hide ur flagz
Probably your thinking skills, too. Generalisations bore me. Got anything else?
My comment was probably out of hand and I apologize for that, it just angers me when people get away with blaming Muslims for being this or that way without really distinguishing any differences.
You imply that you met “very many” Muslims who proved your generalizations wrong (the moderates, etc) – those who state that the terrorists don’t represent us and all. Then how come you still make generalizations on how Muslims think and feel? How many Muslims do you meet on an average daily basis, or on blogs, who actively blame “Zionism” for everything? Sure such people exist, but no more than people who blame “Islam” for the world’s ills. So why only condemn one corrupt ideology or conspiracy and not the other? Just strikes me as very hypocritical.
You’re not the only one being scared and offended, and you shouldn’t blame the rest of us for things that we are clearly not responsible for. To justify feelings of contempt and marginalize the Muslim community within Europe is completely wrong and must be condemned; and I am doing so now. Many Muslims make mistakes, but so do members of every other community, I do not see you being all offended and paranoid … probably because the media fails to create noise on such matters, we live in an age where only bigotry sells. Moderation, understanding, dialogue, interfaith, much of it exists around us – but it just falls down the drain. Apparently these things don’t excite or interest most people. They’d rather just make generalizations so they would feel good about themselves… really I don’t blame myself for getting so mad at these things. It’s very dangerous that we let people get away with this hatred and intentional misunderstanding. They just refuse to learn.
Mideast Youth is one of the few networks that stands up to the rights of those being silenced for their religious criticism in the Middle East (and surprise, none of it has to do with “Zionism.”) Whether be it oppressed religious minorities or imprisoned ex-Muslim bloggers, you can be assured that we will stand up for them – so there are no double standards here, just honesty and respect for everyone’s rights. It therefore bothers me that people not recognize what many Muslims are risking their lives in achieving. It is insulting and disrespectful to reduce our issues to this false blame on “Zionism” and only shows an intense misunderstanding and unawareness on your part.
Portraying prophet Muhammad in bed with young girls or a gay Jesus is just plain offensive. Those coming up with such cartoons or shows know that they are offensive. Indeed they have the freedom of speech and the freedom of being stupid. Stupidity is not a punishable crime, but remains nonetheless stupidity. Coming up with offensive religious materials is exposing oneself to repraisal of all sorts. i.e. if authors of such materials get killed, they asked for it and they knew that they were exposing themselves. Very basic common sense should have stopped the authors from blaspheming the prophets (both Muhammad and Jesus). I agree with Esra’a that unfortunately, especially in Denmark or the Netherlands, it has become common practice for a religious community to insult another religious community in public. Boycotting those countries could sometimes be a adequate response to force their governments to put pressure on the press not to release blasphemic materials.
[...] “I thought only Muslims did this…” [...]
Here in the states we’ve had riots over winning sports championships. Fried cars, burnt and looted buildings etc. What kind of fanaticism would the media ascribe that to? Fanatical stupid? Terminally insane? Brain farts? Anal/cranial inversions? Just the boys out having some fun? Lunatics are everywhere it seems!
Aladin: It’s not religious communities that insult each other , more like non-religious people insulting ALL religions. And boycotting Denmark or the Netherlands can not make our governments censor the press. The laws would have to be changed before that could happen.
Esra’a: My sincere apologies, my “Zionist plot” was an ironic attempt to agree with you about “blaming them all”. I’d better stop right here before I make things worse.. Peace out.