Israel Should Attack Iran
I say, go ahead, I like the sound of that. I’ll tell you why.
Not long after Iraq was discovered to be a colossal blunder, war drums began to pound for Iran. A not so democratic place with an oppressive regime who’s a danger to its neighbors and the U.S. as well as being a state sponsor of terror, blah blah blah, etc etc. Well I’ve heard this story before and I didn’t like how it turned out.
Who really wants war with Iran? Pat Buchanan once answered that question with…”Only Dick Cheney, Senator Joe Lieberman and the Israeli Lobby”
But what are the reasons for wanting war with Iran? You’ve heard it an endless number of times, nuclear weapons, desire to wipe Israel off the map, funding Hezbollah, working with Syria, etc. Somethings off about that though, there are many countries who hate Israel, fund terrorism and probably wouldnt mind if Israel didnt exist anymore. Ironically the U.S. wants to give them a nuclear program. One being Egypt and the other, the biggest terrorist state in all the world…Saudi Arabia.
So why would the U.S. and Israel feel so comfortable allowing these countries to have nuclear energy while threatening Iran’s destruction over it? There are two reasons.
First, a good share of Israeli ministers and Knesset members are crazy, bold and brazen, much more than Ahmadinejad. They believe they can fight the whole world, they want to punish people who dont like Zionists and who dislike Israel and they would like the U.S. to do the job for them. They are nuts! Even in the U.S. which is so heavily influenced by the Israeli lobby, these guys are pushing their luck and wielding more power than they poses. On top of all that the most staunch “bomb Iran” members of Israeli Government are Iranians themselves. Jews born and raised in Iran or whose parents immigrated from Iran and who desperately want revenge on a country they feel bitter towards. In short, they have an axe to grind.
The most recent and loudest anti-Iran mouth piece in Israel is Shaul Mofaz an Iranian Jew born in Tehran in 1948. His words, “”If Iran continues its nuclear arms program — we will attack it”, buzz like a fly in my ear.
The U.S. has its own reason which comes in two parts. First because Israel is crying in their ear about it and they feel obligated to comply but two because of something monetary, surprise surprise. In actuality the U.S. will give Nuclear power to anyone, on one condition, that they buy the enriched uranium from them. Ah, now this smells familiar. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India all have to buy enriched uranium from the U.S. which is extremely expensive as you can imagine. Iran however wants to enrich their own uranium, thats a big no, no and when you are siting on an oil gold mine, thats enough to go to war over. Its not hard to understand or believe. We already know that Iran hasn’t had anything close to a weapons program since 2003, we know that the enrichment of Iran’s uranium is not enough for weapons use and we know that we’ve been sold this type of fear mongering and propaganda before, so don’t look so surprised.
Is punishing an oppressive government reason for war? No, if the U.S. is feeling so heroic they can stop ignoring the rest of the world transgressions.
Is Iran a severely oppressive regime…Yes! Is Iran a supporter and funder of groups deemed terrorists by much of the world…Yes! Is Ahmadinejad a little crazy…Yes! (even though I think hes more stupid and antagonistic than crazy). Is Iran going to attack Israel unprovoked…No! Don’t think for a second that the leaders of Iran would dare threaten their own power by attacking Israel.
However if Israel doesn’t want to wait for the U.S. to attack Iran and they want to do it themselves I say go ahead. Fight your own war, see if you can handle it, see if your people will put up with it, see if it doesn’t threaten your existence more than Iran’s nuclear program ever did. I don’t believe Israel has much hope against Iran unless they intend to use a nuke of their own.
Remember that Iran is a country with half a million active troops, 350 thousand reserve and 11.4 million paramilitary. Making them the largest military force in the world. So go ahead, show them what you got, keep talking the tough talk and fight your own battles.
Join the Conversation
I’d rather not see wider war so will ignore that part of your comments but..
“Remember that Iran is a country with half a million active troops, 350 thousand reserve and 11.4 million paramilitary. Making them the largest military force in the world. So go ahead, show them what you got, keep talking the tough talk and fight your own battles.”
As it pertains to the Iranian military. Remember they fought a 10 year war with Iraq killing millions (both sides) and both fought to a draw.
The US military destroyed the Iraqi Army in a few weeks with a smaller force.
I’ve not seen a ME military thats worth anything, Syrian, Morrocan, Egyptian, SA, UAE, Jordanian, whatever…they basically suck with poor officers (promoted politically if they support the regime) no NCO corps and very uneducated/poorly trained soldiers. Poor organization, weak leadership and no prof instituted training. Numbers don’t tell the story.
They do make good suiciders though.
> I say, go ahead, I like the sound of that. I’ll tell you why.
Moron. Sure let’s just do it. Start a war! Death. Chaos. In particular “moron” and “chaos” aren’t really the phrases I want to use. But colorful language will stop this comment from getting posted.
I live in the US and it never fails to surprise me how many gung ho neo-cons baying for war – have never been in a war themselves – their children have never been in a war – and their grandchildren will never be in a war.
War is hell.
but there is a problem… this “longest military force in the world” can’t march toward Jerusalem’s gates.
Iraqi military had weapons from the 70s and 80s because of all the sanctions etc while Iran has “modern” arms. Iraq was a dead snake, taking glory for a beating a dead thing doesn’t make you so powerful.
It seems to me that an attack on Iran may already be a foregone conclusion. The Bush administration has been looking for an excuse to attack Iran. The Iranians aren’t helping themselves any. If they truly have nothing to hide then stop acting like you do. Keep calling for the destruction of Israel and stating you have a right to enrich uranium and the next thing you know your nation will be destroyed. Nice leadership mullahs! Bravado and claims of sovereign rights will mean nothing. A final word: A lame duck American President that has a very low IQ and is more concerned about his legacy is a very dangerous person to bluff. Looks like Iran has been called. Your deal Iran, raise or fold?
Dear author, seems you missed the biggest motivation for the attack. Ahmadinijad is POPULAR. As much as pundits claim his support is falling in Iran, compared to Olmert in Israel, and the dictators in Egypt and Saudi Arabia he’s a rock star. And as Iran grows more popular from Lebanon to Iraq, the only thing worse from an american point of view than having thousands of US soldiers killed and maimed to create middle-eastern democracies is to have created democracies where pro-iranian, anti-american viewpoints prevail.
One way to try to undermine Iran’s popularity is to sabotage its security, which the west is attempting to do psychologically (with threats), and if that fails, through some shock-and-awe type military strike to humiliate them. Only problem with all this is each threat pushes gas up ten bucks a barrel, making Iran’s oil-exporting economy richer, and Iran may already have influence in too many places for a military strike to reverse the regional momentum.
There are 200million non-israelis, and 6million israelis in the region. That’s 97% against 3%. If even 10% of the majority rallies behind a popular movement against those they see as foreign invaders, it’s Ghandi, Hugo Chavez, Mandela, etc. all over again and Israel looks even more like South Africa trying to suppress the masses. But if Iran is too preoccupied with its own defense to lead the people of the region… voila! Destabilizing Iran buys Israel a few years more to get itself together.
But alas, Israel’s greatest enemy is its own internal moral and demographic crises… someday the mothers will want to raise happy and moral Jewish children, and Israel is no place for that. Do a little research on school violence there…
“Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India all have to buy enriched uranium from the U.S. which is extremely expensive as you can imagine. Iran however wants to enrich their own uranium, thats a big no, no and when you are siting on an oil gold mine, thats enough to go to war over.”
That makes a lot of sense.
I am an Iranian who moved to Canada three years ago. I went to school in Iran. The people and the kids in Iran in fact like Americans!
Iranian people as well as the government are facing so many internal problems that they wouldn’t even think of attacking another country. What they have always wanted is to own their capital and not having to buy their own resources from US or any other country.
Iran is going to be busy for a while fighting inflation and unemployment. The people WILL fix the government in time. If there is no war, Iran will become a better place and adapt better government. The conservatives wont rule for ever, most people hate them.
I really hope that no country will attack Iran (im pretty sure Iran wont initiate the war). Not just because all my relative and old friends are there, but also because I know Iran has always been about Art and Peace. There are friendly and peaceful people, just like you, living there. Like most people in the world they just want to have a reasonable life. They are peaceful but extremely protective of their family and land.
If you are an American reading this, please try to forget about what media force you to think and see if you can find the real story. Show your support for peace.
“Iran IS NOT and has NEVER been a threat to US”
Ahmadinejad makes regular threats against Israel’s existence and follows up those threats by funding terrorist groups who are lobbing missles into Israel on a daily basis. From our point of view, the man may be a nutcase, but he is also a serious nutcase, with the resources to carry out his nutty plans.
I am neither a bitter Iranian nor a bold and brazen Knesset member. I am a regular Israeli, an immigrant from the US, rather central/moderate in my political views (and I vote and demonstrate accordingly)…and living in Tel Aviv. Or, in other words, the first target if Ahmadinejad does what he has been saying he is going to do. (Ironically, a strike here would not only wipe out a sizeable Arab population, but would also gut the left-wing parties who are the most vocal opponents of military action). From my point of view, I can either trust the bold and brazen Knesset members and the bitter Iraquis–all of whom are facing the same existential threat and who will go down if I do, or I can trust your assertion that “golly, that guy may be a nutcase but he does not really mean what he says”.
We Jews took that route before, in the 1930′s, in respect to Adolf Hitler. It did not help Germany’s war effort or the population to have so much in the way of resources devoted to wiping out Jews, gays, gypsies and other undesireable populations. It did not matter. They did it anyway. Plenty of leaders do not act in the best interest of their countries. Sometimes madmen really do get to carry out their schemes.
I am alive today because my great grandfather did take Hitler seriously and one by one, he got his kids out of Poland and to the United States. Each one sent for the next. My grandmother was the last to get out, in 1939. My great-grandfather and the youngest brother never made it out.
Please bear in mind that I mentioned the Holocaust intentionally. That is what I, a regular, moderate Israeli, see when I see footage of Ahmadinejad threatening to wipe me off the map. As for Iran’s army…and they will be any smaller if we sit on our asses and wait for that man to nuke us?
Forget the rhetoric. Speak to me tachlis, to the point. As an Israeli, why should I trust you? What basis do you have for your assertions?
Iranians and Israelis, do us all a favour and nuke each other.
kthxbi!!!
Hmmmm…an option. Of course, the nuclear fallout would probably wipe out the Israeli Arab and the Palestinian populations as well. Are you okay with that?
Three birds with with a single exchange of nukes. World peas here it comes.
BTW, You say Ahmadinejad regularly makes threat to wipe out Israel. Where I get my news, Israeli politicians say the exact same thing about Iran, of course this never makes it on CNN or FOX where you probably get your news from. I see no difference. At the same time, Ahmadinejad have yet to say he wants to wipe Israel like CNN ones reported. Of course the enlightened masses figured out that the translation was bogus and the fools who pay homage to anything TV says accepted as a fact.
At the same time, Israel does something worse to Palestinians on a daily basis than the silly tin cans being fired from wherever. And your Holocaust idea falls on deaf ears because to a degree your act just like the Nazis who murdered your people.
Am not going to respond to the last paragraph as I already know (from past experience) that we are not going to agree.
I get my news primarily from Kol Israel (radio news–once an hour) and the Haaretz Online Edition. I tend to go more with the English version, as it is easier, but will refer to the Hebrew version as the information tends to be more complete and up-to-date. Every once in a while I use YNet. Here, I tend to go to the Hebrew version, but am linking to the English for your convenience; I suspect your browser will not recognize Hebrew characters. There is also the Jerusalem Post, but I rarely refer to them. Their reputation for journalistic quality is not the highest.
In respect to television news programs, I rarely watch them (am embarrassed–one of my resolutions is to start), but when I do I always watch the local news and analysis programs and never CNN, BBC or Fox. I see no reason to get local news from an agency in the States or Great Britain and have no particular interest in getting lots of US/British news.
As to whether local media coverage is slanted in favor of the left or the right depends on who you ask. Ask a right-wing person and they will tell you that the media is all slanted left. Ask someone from the left-wing and they will tell you exactly the opposite–that it is slanted to the right. In general, Haaretz is known as being left wing and Jerusalem Post as right wing. Ynet–probably more central, but do not read it often enough to really be able to say. There are other news sources which are more solidly aligned with one side or another, be it religious or political stream. Since I am solidly aligned with the center, these have no particular appeal to me.
My coverage does not refer to destroying Iran, but rather destroying the nukes. Could you provide me with links to where you see reports where we are threatening to wipe Iran off the map? I am curious; I would like to try and cross-reference with sources here.
Jina, give the Iranians you adress. May be they’ll visit you too. blahhbooooom !!
When a Muslim talks peace I don’t believe him.
When a Muslim talks war I damn believe him and take actions immidiately.
Its time to bomb Iran!
Touche!
You must be pretty guillable, then. Governments take advantage of people like you all the time. I thought humans were meant to be smarter than this instead of constantly falling for the cheap fear mongering and propoganda that the mainstream smothers us all with.
Wise up folks. Arrogrance and ignorance will soon cause yet another regional war.
True true Esra’a.
What do you all think about non-violent movements for peace? I just took a seminar on it.
I hope this is not going to happen.
Gila,
I think your words are full of obvious hypocrisies, not to mention that your very small nation is believed by most in the Middle East and around the world, to be the biggest threat to the region. You have nuclear weapons, and you also have angry, reckless and aggressive decision makers who have shown a clear lust for war (much to the dismay of many of your innocent neighbors.)
Israeli policies have been disguised as defensive when in reality, they are targeted at causing chaos and anarchy to your enemies.
In saying that, no one is completely innocent in this, but regarding threats, Arabs should be far more fearful of you, then you of them..
Jina,
It’s not the ‘arms’ that make good armies it’s the people, soldiers etc. and I suspect Iran has (by virtue of its stalemate with Iraq) a comparable army of soldiers….politically led by weak officers promoted because of political/religious affiliation and a basically uneducated/indecisive foot soldier.
Saudi Arabia has the latest weapons but their military stinks, fat, lazy and no initiative whatsoever. When the 1st Gulf war began (air war) every Saudi soldier (officers and enlisted) at Al Jabo loaded up in their vehicles and left the border, deserted their post, without a fight and ran away. I had 8 US soldiers and we stayed. I could go on for hours about similar instances.
Patb,
You’re not the first one to compare the U.S. battle against the Iraq army to the draw between Iraq and Iran in the 80′s. However 20 years have passed number 1 and number 2, the U.S. army took down the formal Iraqi Army quite easily but theyve been getting slaughtered and entangled for the past several years with no recognizable advancements, by who? The military equivalent of farmers with pitch forks. Untrained soldiers with no direct leadership at all, running around in sandle’s!
Why? Because in war you can never defeat men on their own soil using guerilla war fair. The strongest armies in the world can not manage to defeat guerrilla fighters and history is full of examples from Vietnam all the way back to the American Revolution which was won largely through the use of Guerrilla war fair by American farmers versus the strongest Army in the world at that time.
So who do you think 11.4 million paramilitary are? They are people who sell fruit or work on cars during the day and pick up AK-47′s at night.
What I would like that Bush, Olmert and Ahmadinejad sat around a table, be some grown ups for one time and settle this damn dispute. There is no advantage for any country at all.
Each country has its own peace of land, live with that. American forces should be brought back to the states and muslim-extremist should also be wise to call off their bloody attacks on the civilians of Iraq. Iran should allow UN Inspectors, if they are speaking the truth about the wish of only gaining energy by its nuclear plants, why not let those UN Inspectors do there job. A small price to convince other people about your serious intentions. For president Ahmadinejad, please apologies for your ‘desire’ to getting Israel of the face of the planet. Don’t you have any ethics? No feelings towards each other? Live and let live. A Jew, A Hindoe, A Christian, A Muslim….what does it matter? We are ALL people. Let’s make this world better and start by getting into a dialog with each other.
Wow… so not one person in here can offer up a convincing argument to reassure an Israeli for your starry-eyed hear-no-evil see-no-evil view of the mullahs who run Iran???? The best you come up with is diversion, and “well israel does it too,” and the lame hypocrisy charges that are totally useless to convincing an Israeli who has a legitimate fear for their own security…. i thought you kids were ‘progressives’ in here, open to other viewpoints, and proud about your being able to advocate the position of “the Other,” but you can’t even face the very real perspective of an israeli who has had family wiped out in the Holocaust (where the world was offering the same lame arguments you idiots are making right now), who sees the world’s most notorious living anti-Semite threatening to wipe her country off the map, while openly enriching uranium, perfecting weapons delivery systems, sponsoring paramilitary forces along her country’s borders, arming them with Iranian weapons, and brazenly provoking the world with Holocaust denial conferences and proclamations of the coming war with arrogance. Not even an acknowledgement that Israel faces a security threat.
Dumb as a brick. You shmucks can argue til your blue in the face that Israelis should put their heads in the sand and wish away this problem but they can’t afford your luxuries of rhetoric. You don’t even have to study national security to get it – just imagine for a second that you’re Jewish.
(the cynic in me predicts the following few posts will continue to evade the challenge or acknowledge the reality. the ultra-cynic in me predicts a string of “well imagine you’re Ahmadinejad” or some other diversionary trick to continue the evasion, or re-direct attention. Of course, this will only continue to reinforce the Israeli notion that they are alone and harden their notion that Israeli military action, desperate and destructive as it will be, remains the only alternative to the much worse prospect of a nuclear-armed Islamic Republic of Iran… its obvious that most people in this forum prefer a sugar-coated view of Iran’s nuclear program, but that merely makes you bystanders to this debate (if you can’t address the challenge openly then you’re not even a participant in the unfolding discussion – the one that counts, that is, the one that will decide the direction of this particular piece of history). Unfortunately from here in DC I can’t even argue that the US government is going to lay down the gauntlet on this one… if OBama is elected it sounds like he’s got an all-carrot, no-stick approach… the buck really does stop with Israel.
Done. And for a second, life was pretty swell.
This shallow excuse has been argued against to death. You can never secure an argument that today is becoming increasingly based on racism. Kill innocent civilians for the sake of your own security? And expect no one to fight back? Where is the logic in this? If Israelis have a right to defend themselves, then by God, so do Palestinians, and soon, so will the Iranians. Stop complaining when you’re bringing this on to yourself.
Everyone has had a black history, not just Jews. It doesn’t mean you get to be murderers without anyone holding you accountable for this ongoing terrorism and crimes. And whenever someone does, we of course have to suffer through the irrational, utterly retarded argument… “imagine you’re Jewish.” Currently, Jews are treated way better in the Middle East than most minorities, and they at least have their own country with their own powerful military and with billions in aid from the USA. What more do you want? Being a Jew sounds great! Try imagine for a second you’re a Kurd, a Sunni in a primarily Shiite country with militants (and vice versa), or a Baha’i. Then come and talk to me about the Jews. No tears wept here. You fought your war and you won, you earned your rights and security, congratulations. Now let others do the same.
Anyways, I don’t really care much for this argument. But sometimes we always get stuck with a bunch of racists trying to justify Israeli crimes against humanity, and it’s becoming very hard to let this kind of thing slide. No one sane will buy your argument, Ben. It makes no sense.
Most Arabs and Muslims here complain about Arab or Muslim terrorism. Hell, we have campaigns condemning it. We admit we have problems and terrorists among us. Try doing the same for once, instead of being a violent nationalist.
@ Gila
many people (Iranians as well as non-Iranians) may say that Ahmadinejad does not mean what he says. I, however, feel that he exactly means what he says, at least in the case of Israel being wiped off the map.
But you, and your officials, have to understand why many people in the region buy Ahmadinejad’s (or, as another example, Nasrallah’s) ideas and rhetoric, and that is not due to anti-semitism; understand it please. the Jewish state, thanks to its arrogant power as well as endless US supports, has based its policies/practices upon imposing fear on the neighbouring people/states. thus you should expect some leaders to treat you the same way you treated your neighbours, i.e. to try to impose fear on you.
@ Ben
‘stop Iran or we will attack it’ is more of a hollow gesture, and the true message of Israelis is something close to this: ‘stop Iran for we are afraid to
attack it’.
If it were not so, why did they attack the premitive Syrian reactor while neglecting Iranian one? Israeli officials very well know that they may come to pay a high price if a preemptive attack is undertaken by them, in which case Iran’s harsh and probably excessive reaction may be somehow justified. former defence ministry was once quoated as saying: “we are determined to produce Shahab missiles more than Peykan (the unpopular Iranian car)”, and you probably know the advertisement of Peykan producer: “every Iranian is entitled to at least one Peykan.” Therefore, Israeli officials are very eager to push US forward to play this game on behalf of them.
Mohammad,
Why should iran fight this war? If that is for the Palestinian cause, why Iran pretends to be more dedicated to the cause than the league of Arab nations? Is that for being a muslim? Is threatening Israel proportional to being muslim? Frankly speaking many people from muslim countries don’t consider Iranians muslims at all, they are not very sure Iranians acually converted to Islam from the time they were Majusis( Zarostrians). They can well support this arguement by the fact that we celebrate Majusi eves and we jump over the fire to be blessed for the new year.
What i am trying to say is attacking another country for the sake of religion, is one way of denying a religion, religions are nothere to make us fight, really, we are fools is we buy that. Religions are there so that we find the right words at the marriage ceremonies, or when they want to burry us after 120+, it is determined that we are burnt or burried and how.
Iranians are enemies of no one, I am not talking about the bunch of hypocrites
ruling us, if we were enimies of Iraqis why we are all over Iraq( again i am not talking about the IRI weapons is the hands of militants, I am talking about the pilgrims who like to go there to karbala and cry ( oh they love to cry), and buy a bunch of cheap Chinese goods there and come back home. As if they couldn’t cry back home and buy the same cheap Chinese stuff here. Nowadays i see more and more fo Chinese smiling faces in the Bazaars greeting the costumers in p0ersian language.
If We want to back Paelstinians, why not in a right way? Why should we back Chaos instead of statehood? Why at the price of being attacked? Which country does that to its own people? Backing people of other countries at the expence of being attacked?
Do you guys find this supporting genuine? A baby realises it is not so.
What I want to tell people of my region here is that we do not wish to fight any one, truely not. We do not look for trouble or making trouble, really, haven’t we had Enough of that lately? In the last 30 years specifically?
I don’t want to be pessimistic, but I believe some other countries are in charge of making us fight like Tom and Jery.
We don’t need all of this, Persian, Plestinaians, Israelis, Arabis, Turks, Kurds, What we need to fight is Ignorance, and that cannopt happen through bullets like idiots!
Esra: Governments take advantage of people like you all the time. I thought humans were meant to be smarter than this instead of constantly falling for the cheap fear mongering and propoganda that the mainstream smothers us all with Falsetinian ProPalganda and Ahmadinajad stupidity.
Wise up folks. Arrogrance and ignorance will soon cause yet another regional war. Let the Iranian fall !!!!
Elinor:
I do agree with your conclusion that some others are forcing us to pay this price on behalf of them. agreed.
however, this does not mean that the current conflict is merely due to the role Iran plays in mideast. once upon a time the problem of mideast was a number of countries who were determined to wipe another one off the map. right now, the problem is a bit different: an arrogant power is determined to further advance its own agenda, mostly through imposing fear on other states/peoples. You can not reach a stable peace unless somebody comes to balance the power of this arrogant state. and when US decides to side with this state (whatever the reasons), some of the regional powers have to do so.
lets have a look at the most recent mideast developments: Israel and Syria admitted that they may reach a peace contract, which will allow Syria to get back Golan heights. and you know, Golan heights are annexed to Israel due to a law passed in Knesset. so, why in the world has Israel decided to give back this piece of land? due to peace-loving nature of this regime? I dont think so. This decision is only the consequence of a strong Iranian presence in the region, and Israel is ready to give up on some of its interests (a very rare act) just to isolate Iran. period.
DB,
You are right about the dif of fighting uniformed vs. nonuniformed elements.
I think we’ll defeat the foreigners in Iraq (as we are) and the local issues will take care of themselves (moving that direction).
The South Viet (viet Cong) were basically wiped out by the 68 TET and the war, from that point, waged by the North Viets and was lost politically.
In Iran, if it comes to that, I’d hazard a guess of a conventional war, harsh, decisive without the follow up as in Iraq.
The Iranian ‘G’s can fight amongst themselves.
On the contrary, there is a very good reason–Olmert trying to save his own political skin. The conventional wisdom here is that Olmert is jumping into this in order to divert attention from the various corruption probes. He would start negotiations with space aliens from the planet Zarkon if that would help. Unfortunately for him, it is not working. Most of us trust Assad about as far as we can throw him and we feel about the same about Olmert. Hmmm…maybe they should enter into negotiations. Just lock them into a room for a while and ignore them…they can keep each other amused with bombast and leave us alone.
Eventually, we will have new elections. Hopefully, this will be before Olmert does anything else corrupt, scandalous or stupid. A peace treaty with Syria at this time, when it is clear that his motives are not what they should be, would qualify as all three. Just to clarify, suppose that a party runs in the next election on a platform of arriving at a peace agreement with Syria. If they get a mandate–give it a shot. And yes, isolating Iran in the form of minimizing Syria’s motiviation to providing support or serving as a pipeline for Iranian support to the terrorist groups looking to attack Israel would be an added benefit. Will some of you see that differently? Of course. It depends on how you see it. If you see Hezbollah and Hamas attacks on Israel as justified, then we will simply never agree. Rather than argue it, just accept that we have different views and that is it.
As for Israel as the arrogant state–once again–I see that there is no room for actual dialogue in that moniker(just name calling and blind hatred) so will leave that point alone.
Gila:
Reducing the whole matter to a subjective disagreement not only fails to solve the problem but also sets a permanent barrier to the way of reconciliation. this means that there is no objective mean to measure each one’s acts. I do not think so.
as for Israel-Syria issue, your picture of the current status seems to be more accurate. ok. but the main idea is still valid: a strong, say, Iranian action against Israel may happen to force Israel to reach agreements with some of ex-foes and give up on some of its interests.
Now, it’s time to turn to ‘arrogant’ issue. even though you dont like this term, it is a brief discription of the above paragraph. “A power that only submits to international norms if it is pressed by some superior force.” and this extended description applies to Israel very well. Why Israel come to leave south lebanon? due to its respect to UNSC resolutions? and so on.
Mohammad,what does Golan have to do with your people in Iran? Israel and Arabs had several wars, we were involved in non of them. They fight and then they make up and build relationship. For some of the countries around Israel it took longer than the other, and we shouldn’t even feel surprised if next year some officals from most conflicting groups back there drink Chai together and breakfast. I am furious about Iran having a role to play in the never-ending conflict which we have Not created at all. After the creation of the state of Israel, Jewish minorities in all Arab countries were threatened, well, one can understand why, but in a country like Iraq some of their clergy were executed, they had to flee, leave all their belongings and go to Israel, wanted or unwanted. It never happened in Iran. Well, at the begining of the Iranian revolution there were some of the Shah backers from the Jewish community who were excecuted, but that was not for being Jewish. This Arab-Israeli conflict is not mine and its not yours. As Iranioans we have to be positive, understand both sides and at least try to be helpful, rather than siding with one party and scaring the other. I do not think Golan deals had any thing to do with Iran. Syria and Israel fought and now they are finding their balance. It did take some good deal of time, well that is war, that’s how it happens. Iranian officals are throwing us in the Middle of many stories which are really not our business, and we will have to pay the price of what is not our fault. If we had wise people guarding and leading our nation, we could have acted like India, like Russia, threating both sides respectfully, making money, building relationships. I consider the Arab league way wiser than our own leaders. They fight the war to the last bullet possible, then they make friends. Economy and well being of people comes first. Now the extremests of the extremes are building productive relationships and we are aleinating ourselves from the rest of the wolr for What? Who is going to benefit? Do you think the Palestinians? I swear to my Lord that they will not benefit from the chaos.
Mahfuz, I can understand how you feel about Iranian fall, Iranians won’t, the regime might face very serious challenges, being replaced with people who wouldn’t trade Me 4 U
we have nothing to disagree about. you said:
let me add: we are paying the price of anothers’ victory. so bad.
Thanks. Thanks for disregarding EVERYTHING I WROTE on the Jewish perspective and proving totally incapable of understanding the set of arguments that inform this perspective. Rather than trying to udnerstand this perspective and speaking to it, you’re obviously not trying to communicate with me, but with the rest of the readers in this forum to prove some ulterior point that has nothing to do with what I wrote.
Next.
The turn. You divert. It’s obvious. It’s belittling. It’s crap. You suck.
I couldn’t have drafted a better example of belittling the Jewish perspective, relativizing it, and then putting it on a shelf so you can completely disregard it. This close-minded crap IS the mental wall that exists with any discussion of Jews in the Middle East. I wrote nothing of the “murders, terrorism and crimes” you speak of, but you fire away at your straw man in a desperate attempt to shift the focus away from Ahmadinejad and back to the ignominious crimes of the Israeli state. According to this logic, no Jew (save maybe the anti-Zionist) should have a seat at the table, for he will be branded a racist for believing in the Jewish right to self-determination.
Jews are treated better where??? My family is from Algeria and Morocco… and we were kicked out of both… along with the entire Jewish community. Oh yea, we were also ethnically cleansed from Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, and Lebanon. There’s none left in the Middle East EXCEPT for in the Jewish state and you call THAT the best treated minority in the Middle East???? THANK GOD FOR ISRAEL is the only logical conclusion you can aspire to adduce from that – and I highly doubt, given your previous comments, that this is a position you advocate. Try unraveling your logic and putting it back together in sequence some time.
As for the other minorities… I AGREE! Maybe a piece of humanity exists in you behind all that Jew-bating crap you just through at me. I completely stand for Berber rights, Copts, Kurds, etc… In fact, Kurds have about 4523453 times stronger case for their own state than Palestinians do, but that’s another story.
How you can get off making a quote like this is beyond me. You just had an argument with yourself and somehow you walk away implying that I have justified Israeli crimes against humanity? We did nto even discuss this! I was talking abut the Israeli perspective on Iran’s nuclear program and betting that those who responded would try to evade the real security threat Iran poses to Jews in Israel.
Your comments reinforce my point well – a complete mental inability to connect with anything I wrote, and an obvious attempt to rewrite everything I wrote.
This last finish is too much…
After you’ve finished having a conversation with yourself about things I never said you call me a violent nationalist. You haev not contributed one iota to assuaging legitimate fears of Jews to Ahmadinejad or Iran’s nuclear program – in fact you have simply insulted the whole concept of Jewish insecurity over this reality – but you think your words will make a difference in my thinking? or in Gila’s thinking (i don’t speak for her, and sorry to associate if i am making trouble for her), or in anyone who sees the legitimate threat where this threat exists? You just proved that you occupy a totally different world.
I read this site from time to time and while its good to see the beginning of a legitimate discussion of minority rights in the region and stimulating a real dialogue there… the distance that exists with Jews remains baffling… that obviously remains a gap too far to be bridged… and that, I do find pretty depressing.
Mohammed,
Thank you for respectfully exchanging ideas. How refreshing (given the crap I just had to confront with Esra’a).
I probably totally disagree with your worldview, as you seem to be lending credence to the legitimacy behind a pro-Ahmadinejad stance, but as far as the nature of the politics go, I think I agree.
Israel does not want to attack Iran. Israel is scared. Israel is basically facing the reality that Iran going nuclear may be imminent, and the US looks politically too weak to do anything. The Iranian threat, to Israel, IS existential, from this perspective (no matter that Esra’a is too close-minded to entertain the prospect that Israelis are human beings with their own threat-perception). This is not to say that Iran or any others don’t have threat perceptions of their own, or that there is not a rational calculus that could be construed to Iran’s weaponizing nuclear enrichment. There is a clear political advantage that fits perfectly in line with the Islamic Republic’s objectives and actions thus far. It is patterned behavior, and somewhat rational. And I personally don’t think Iran would be so foolish as to ever launch a nuke at Israel – only to augment its arming of Hezbollah and Hamas, to torpedo any Israeli-Palestinian peace move, and to insulate the regime from any American attack, while expanding its influence in the region. This is pretty conventional thought on the matter.
But this would also spell the end of Pax-Americana in the Middle East… or at least present a formidable challenge.. one in which the regional alignment would favor Syria-Iran-Hezb-Hamas, and the Sunni constellation might see arms proliferation mushroom ten-fold. In either scenario that unfolds, a nuclear Iran radically augments the chances of nuclear exchange, and builds in a bi-polar, potentially tri-polar, political dynamic in one of the most well-armed and unstable regions in the world.
Hear that, everyone? Israel is scared. Poor Israel. Let’s all kill ourselves to make sure Israel get what it wants. Surely that will make Ben and his ilk happy, and clearly, the world revolves around him. So let’s please make sure that Ben gets what he wants.
You think that for decades people have been paying for your fears with their blood, people are not scared? Everyone is scared of Israel, it’s about time Israel itself shares some of that fear. It’s only this fear that will keep us all safe in the end. I hope we all stay scared, especially Israel, for the sake of this region’s security.
Jews are scared. Israel is scared. And I guess this means that everyone else is aching for a war. Ben makes total sense. Ben rocks. Ben thinks he is the only one who has “legitimate” concerns. Apparently the rest of us can’t be scared too of Israel’s powerful military and crazy leaders. Ben doesn’t think that our fear is legitimate. Because Ben is weird.
When Ben is confronted with different opinions, Ben thinks it’s crap. He doesn’t get that Jews are among the world’s most powerful people, even within this region. Your government proved time and again that they’re willing to bomb others to oblivion for their own interests and so-called “security.” Apparently, that doesn’t make our fear legitimate. Jews have their own secure, sovereign, powerful state. Ben wants them to have more. Ben thinks it’s worth our blood.
Ben, stop using irrational fears to support your racism.
Ben, get over it.
Ben, seriously.
Was I supposed to weep over this? Not sure. Our family (Sunnis) was largely discriminated against and practically forced out of Iran as well. You don’t see us using this fear to justify racism and war against others though, the way you do. Jews are hardly the ones who are suffering most in the region, they are just the most vocal. Doesn’t make their case the worst. You must love this “victim” thing too much if you think you guys are the only ones with a problem. When you didn’t have your own state, sure, you could’ve argued otherwise. But now you do.
Where I am right now, Jews are really happy. Much happier than any other minority I listed. So happy that we just elected a Jewish ambassador. Because we rock Ben. And you don’t. You want war. To make up for your history. And that, I find, is pretty depressing. Ben, seriously.
Jews think they are so original in their own suffering. That’s why Israel supports the ‘denying of the Armenian genocide’ for political reasons. The word genocide is invented by a Jewish lawyer to prosecute the Nazi regime. But I doubt there is something scientific about it. Murder is murder.
We all have our own frievances. It shouldn’t make me look down to you or vice versa. It is good to prevent the wrong and unjust events that happned to each and every one of us here in the Middle East from happening again. It is not a good sign if I am happyn when you grieve and you happy when I grieve. Finally we are all human beings, we should be better than goats right? When one is slauightered the others tremble. They feel bad when a fellow-goat is slaughtered. Shouldn’t we be bettern that goats? Or at least as cool?
Ben. I know your story. As Esra’a said we have had different kinds of experences as such in our volatile state of the region. Ben, if I belittle your grievance as an Iranian, believe me, the same story is going to happen to me, G-d does that. When I hear about other people’s grievances I ask Lord to spare me, to help them and help me as well.
A country like Bahrain is trying to make up for what happned back in the history. This is good. I know there will come the proper time and place that the state of Palestinians will also change. in a more stable region they will build us their state and reconstruct every thing and make a better future for their children. Your people the same, I hope that for my people as well. I refrain from the officials because I am far from even dreaming that one day we will have actual just elections, and the real representatives of the people will rewrite our constition, in a way our rights as human beings, as Iranians, and as differernt memeber of our distinguished ethnical and religious backgrounds would be realised.
Abdullah – same to you chump. “Jews think x, that’s why Israel Y”
You guys deliberate trying to chase all the Jews out of here??? Well… if regional trends have any correlation you’d probably kick all your Jews out and STILL find a way to curse them.
The eternal scapegoat.
Ben, she is not an antisemite and you are not and anti Arab or you wouldnt be writng here and she wouldn’t be maintaining a website were youth from different regions would communicate. Well, it all depends on how we interpret one another’s remarks. When she says the same tine happened to sunnis of Iran and her family were expelled from Iran, because in Iran although Iran is a muslim country but it is ruled by the shiites, and that makes the sunnis the minority and they do get persecuted in Iran, in a way that a family would move out forever and become a memeber of another community, where they are no more harrassed for being who they are. In this case, she says she is equal with you, she has faced same troubles so this is not rediculing, this is trying to say some thing else. I guess Esra’a would like to see a shift from the past, and being more fopcused at the present state of affairs. In Middle East things have definitely changed from some 50 years back, with all the goods and bads, ups and downs, now it is the time that countries and people are tring to have a more relaiztinc way of looking into the matters. They are accepting one another mopre eagerly, at the same time, there are some other groups still being persecuted, the way you were, some 50 years back or she was, some 50 years back. Right now you have a relatively safe place so does she, but Kurdish children will be tried and chraged merely for singing a song not wanted. Many other things. Ben, there was this blogger who didn’
t like my posts very much, I guess I was opposted to her postings as well, we met. In that one and half day we spent together we talked person to person about things were wrote about before. She told me she understood me better now that we have talked. I wouldn’t accused you or her just like that. Look, you say you come from North Africa right? Didn’t you see how Silvan Shalom went back to the country they had said goodbye to, years and years back? Wasn’t that all inspiring? It was, I am not North African, but I was inspired, srange nah?
So because I wholeheartedly disagree with Ben, a single (and rather imbalanced) Jew, I am a hateful racist and an anti-Semite.
This thread is hilarious.
i wouldnt want to even imagine the consequences of attacking iran
1. soaring oil prices. he wouldnt dare attack oil reserves in the middle east – that would make him a nutcase, or would he? this can have even more serious implications in poorer countries in Africa who will probably fight over food
2. Dont even get me started on the shia and sunni fight which will force in saudi arabia, syria, iraq, lebanon and Israel
3. increasing terrorism, wander what would happen in a country of 60 million people
4. NUCLEUR WAR!!!
This thread points to a big problem in the world: good intentioned people are still divided by huge ideological chasms. Why is this so? There are probably a lot of reasons: because we were brought up to distrust one another, because dividing ourselves from one another made some evolutionary sense, because we interpret out histories in ways that conform to our worldview, because it may make some sense to assume the worst about someone in order to protect yourself from the unexpected, because blaming others is easier than blaming ourselves, etc.
For all these, and many other reasons, people the world over remain divided from one another ideologically, and that is probably the greatest impediment to peace. Without all this ideological nonsense, there would be no reason for people to continue fighting one another, especially as the stakes get higher and higher.
So what’s the answer. Talking to one another is not enough, although it is better than nothing. But we will not convince one another by simply talking. Talk is cheap.
The answer is to create facts on the ground which speak louder than words. And if this is done, if we inspire one another with a sense of hope, if we invest in one another to create good paying jobs which protect the environment, if we unite to take on the extremists, if we do all this and more, then we will naturally come to the conclusion that we don’t have to assume the worst about one another. We will be more likely to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and to trust each other for the sake of brokering a peace.
I have no doubt that everyone who was a part of this thread is a good person, who wants the best that life has to offer for himself, his family, and his country. But we are all like caged animals, held captive by our own insecurities, and assuming the worst about our fellow man due in part to the brutality of our histories.
We have to break this pattern. We have to see new possibilities for a better day, even when that prospect remains dim at best. There is a way out of this morass, but it will only be available to those of open minds, and open hearts.
This thread is good because it points to the challenge that lies ahead. It is up to us to meet that challenge with the same passion that kindles our anger.
From The Bible, Old Testament, Genesis:
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
huh
Jina, I think that Magnus is referring to the Bibilcal beginnings of the rift between Arabs and Jews.
Sara, the wife of Abraham, was barren, and she instructed her husband Abraham, to have relations with Hagar, her servant, so that he may have an heir.
Hagar and Abraham had a son named Ishmael.
Then, Sara was informed that she too would have a son, at age 90. She found that so funny, that she started laughing, and named the son, Issac which means to laugh.
Then Sara told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away, because she wanted only Issac to be the rightful heir. Abraham did so, only after God assured him that Ishmael would also come to lead a great people, which would become the Arab people.
Magnus, one way of looking at this story is that there is a big division between Jews and Arabs, dating back to Biblical times.
Another way of looking at it is that we are all one family. And while it is true that in any family there are intigues and injustices, still, we are one family, and as such we owe it to ourselves, and our children, and to the countless generations of children yet to come, to come together, to bridge the ideological divide, to find common ground in the things we all beleive in, and to begin to work together to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future.
Thank you, Nissim, for your response. It was meant as a bait for people knowledgeable in religions, and I wasn’t surprised that you wrote down a reflexion. The quoted verses are quite interesting and are sometimes referred to by Muslims as a sign of rejection of their ancestor from the house of Abraham.
You present two ways of reading these verses:
1. The division between Jews and Arabs.
2. The unity and common origin of the two peoples.
These two are important to keep in mind when studying the verses further.
Abraham wasn’t happy about casting out Hagar and Ishmael, at least not with casting out Ishmael (you probably can’t expect a bronze age man to be too chicken-hearted about one of his bondwomen). But the elusive mysterious God/Jahve/Allah told him to obey Sarah. Now one may wonder: Why wouldn’t the Almighty give this exhortation directly to Abraham? Wasn’t he “man” enough for it, but instead needed to hide behind the words of Sarah? Since God is the same in all Abrahamitic religions it was in fact Allah that, by making Abraham obey his wife, cast out the original ancestor of prophet Muhammad, so why are Muslims complaining about it? Another question that arises is: What would have happened if Abraham hadn’t hearkened unto neither the words of Sarah nor God? Would there never had come to this division which is plaguing the whole world? Is the present miserable situation the work of God? If so, what does this say about God/Jahve/Allah?
Magnus, as always, some very insightful observations.
Put yourself in God’s shoes. Whatever you do, someone’s going to complain. If you want Ishmael to become the ancestor of the Arab people, and of the Prophet Muhammad, then you have no choice but to give him some space to operate, independent of the Jews. But when you do that, Muslims will blame the Jews for kicking him out. You can’t win.
Does God really want to create enmity between people? My guess is no. Why would He want to destroy the very beings He created, in His image no less?
But God did create a world that is as capable of evil, as it is capable of good. Once again, He had no choice. If He wanted to create good, He would have to also create the possibility of evil; good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil.
So as your example suggests, God is always in a quandry. He wanted to create the Prophet Muhammad, but in so doing, He also created a division between people.
But here’s the trick; we can see all this. He gave us the common sense to figure it all out. And He does not force us to become evil. He created a balance between all things, including good and evil, love and hate, charity and greed, empathy and indifference, etc. and left it up to us to use our God given common sense to tilt that balance toward the good. If we can do that, then we can bring meaning into this world, then we can validate the efficacy of God’s creation, and prove to Him that His creation is indeed “good.” And if we can’t, He’ll probably just move on to see if anyone else out there can do any better.
Nissim!
If there is a God I too do not think that he wants to create enmity between people, and if he has created us in his image I believe common sense says that he does not want us destroyed. Creating Muhammad was however a terrible mistake he hopefully still regrets; few people can compete with the so-called prophet when it comes to inciting enmity, death and destruction. So saying that God created division between people through Muhammad is to put it very mildly.
However, Muhammad found inspiration in the warlord type of God from e.g. Exodus:
12:28 And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
It is quite bizarre that the Lord wasn’t satisfied by killing all the firstborn Egyptians, he just had to continue with the firstborn cattle also.
Muhammad and his Allah did not want to be any less frightening:
Koran 7:4 How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.
What does common sense have to say about this Lord/Allah?
Magnus, there is no question that Holy Scripture contains a lot of violence. But is it really fair to pin this violence on God?
I don’t think you have to look so far back to find evidence of the violent nature of man. Look at how much killing has been perpetrated in the last 200 years. I don’t have statistical evidence to back me up, but I would guess that more people were killed by the hand of man, in the last 200 years, than in the previous two million years of human existence. From what I know, pre-historic man was not particularly violent. He was a hunter/gatherer, and had no real reason for killing his fellow man. On the contrary, he found it to be more sensible to help one another out, so that we could all survive yet another day.
When we speak about God, it is important to know, or at least to guess, what we’re really speaking about. If we think of God as one of us, and if we pin all this violence on Him, then no wonder some of us walk away with an image of God as heartless and mean-spirited. The passages you quote could be used as evidence for such a conclusion.
But I, for one, don’t see God as one of us. I think of God, based on what I know of the universe, as the sum total of all the creative energy in the universe. God is creative energy. He creates a universe in which all things are possible, because He wanted to give expression to all things, so that a sense of meaning could emerge from His creation. To do this, He had no choice but to balance the good with the bad.
Therefore, while He does not create a Holocaust; He does create a world that is capable of bringing a Holocaust about. While He does not create Global Warming; He does create a world in which Global Warming is possible. While He does not mandage poverty, His world allows for the possibility of poverty. He creates the possibility of all things, because only from this mix could meaning emerge. And above all, He wished for the possibility of meaning, because only that could validate the efficacy of His creation. It’s not like He has his mother telling Him how good He is. He had no choice but to allow His creation to speak for itself and to thereby point to the possibility of meaning.
And so, when you quote scripture, I don’t see the hand of God. I see the hand of man writing down what he thinks, and signing God’s name to it. God did not write scripture. God wrote the universe, and gave us the Common Sense to decipher its meaning.
God created the universe. As part of His creation, He created us, in His image no less. So like him, we are creators as well. What do we create? Among other things, we create God in our image, by ascribing to Him all our faults and desires. Instead of trying to create God, how about creating a better world for ourselves and our children?
Thanks, Nissim, for your view on God. The God you are describing has however not so much in common with the God of the Bible and the Koran, so I have to conclude that your God is not the one I have written about.
ND: “I don’t think you have to look so far back to find evidence of the violent nature of man. Look at how much killing has been perpetrated in the last 200 years.”
We are indeed capable of being very violent, but don’t you think this inclination gets worse when being adherent to a violent God?
ND: “From what I know, pre-historic man was not particularly violent.”
I’m afraid we are still rather much the same.
ND: “God is creative energy.”
This is an attractive concept of God, but it is hard to see how this description could fit Jahve/Allah who has so many more sides to him which are destructive and awfully repulsive.
ND: “And so, when you quote scripture, I don’t see the hand of God. I see the hand of man writing down what he thinks, and signing God’s name to it. God did not write scripture. God wrote the universe, and gave us the Common Sense to decipher its meaning.”
Very beautifully put. A new religion?
No, Magnus, not a new religion, a new ideological framework based on common sense principles, principles which have been around since the beginning of time.
The Golden Mean, “The truth is somewhere between two extremes,” would have us think straight by using Common Sense as our Ideology.
The Golden Rule, “Treat others as you would have them threat you,” would have us treat each other well by Investing in one another, to create jobs which protect the environment.
The Greatest Good, “Do what brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number,” would have us maximize justice by organizing ourselves around a Vision of Hope.
Putting it all together, as Thomas Jefferson may have said, “We find this truth to be self-evident: Ideology plus Investment equals Hope.
And with Hope, Magnus, all things are possible, even the impossible dream of peace. There is not much time to make something happen. In 50 years or so, the sea level may rise up as much as 20 feet, which will flood 60% of humanity. We must find a way to come together, for the sake of our children, and to do what is right for ourselves, and for them. We have no time to waste on ideological nonsense. Things are coming to a head, and it’s to use our head to do what we need to do for the sake of future generations.
ND: “No, Magnus, not a new religion, a new ideological framework based on common sense principles, principles which have been around since the beginning of time.”
OK. I thought you to be a religious person, but now I have to correct that notion.
ND: “The Golden Mean, “The truth is somewhere between two extremes,” would have us think straight by using Common Sense as our Ideology.”
I think The Golden Mean is very dependent on what the extremes are. As a principle I am not much in favour of it.
ND: “The Golden Rule, “Treat others as you would have them threat you,” would have us treat each other well by Investing in one another, to create jobs which protect the environment.”
This one is applicable in most cases, but when used by e.g. sado-masochists it can get messy.
ND: “The Greatest Good, “Do what brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number,” would have us maximize justice by organizing ourselves around a Vision of Hope.”
I am on.
You stress the importance of hope, and I agree, it is indeed very important. But I think hope needs some scientific backing so we may have a greater reason for being hopeful. We have to know what we shall do to attain The Greatest Good, and this means observing and analyzing the situation and not being scared of what we might discover. Some truths are very inconvenient, both concerning the environment and religion.
Magnus, I am religious in that I recognize the presence of God in all aspects of my life. He is the creative energy of the universe. His energy flows through me, and mine through His.
I also respect all religions when they do what they’re supposed to do: to take our life here to a higher spiritual plain, by teaching: ethical behavior, ritual, and belief. What I don’t respect is when religion gets side-tracked into politics and when it espouses views which are antithetical to the tenets of the religion. Any relgion which teaches hate or advocates violence, is off base, and must find its way back to true belief by using the universal moral compass of common sense.
The Golden Mean is just another way of saying that truth is not an extremist position. The concept was developed by Aristotle, and later the Prophet Muhammad, and even the Jewish philosopher Maimonides. Funny they should all come to the same idea. The idea is that the truth of a matter is usually somewhere between extremes, because you have to take into account the circumstances at hand, before making a final judgment, and there are always valid points on both sides of any given issue. Therefore, be careful when you advocate for someone’s death, because the truth of your position is never as absolute as the absolute certainty of death.
The Golden Rule is probably the greatest expression of ethical behavior, and is found in all religions on earth, in one form or another. Why is that? Coincidence? No. The Golden Rule is universal because of its inherent logic. It is self-evident to say that if you treat me well, and I treat you well, then we are both ahead of the game.
I understand your reluctance with the “sado-masochists.” In other words, if I like to be abused, then I will abuse others. But this is a red herring. If two sado-masochists wish to abuse each other, then for them, they are still “happy” living that way, and the Golden Rule still holds. However, if a sado-masochist keeps company with a normal person, then the Golden Rule would say that they should treat each other well in ways they can both relate to.
I think, Magnus, that this is an important point. You mention that a Vision of Hope must be grounded in reality, including the reality of science, and I would assume economics, as well. You talk about “inconvenient truths” harking back to Al Gore’s reference to Global Warming. You’re right to say that we may have to find the courage of “not being scared of what we might discover.”
To my mind, history is coming to a head, and very quickly at that. Look at the pattern. We lived as hunter/gathers for some 2 million years. In the last 10,000 years we decided to get “civilized.” For the last 2000 years the world population was pretty small, and almost everyone on earth was poor. In the last 200 years, with the Industrial Revolution, the population shot way up to over 6 billion today, and a great deal of wealth was concentrated in the West. And in the last 20 years, technological advancements have made it possible for countries to partner up as part of a Global Economy. At the same time, Global Warming may cause the sea level to rise up as much as 20 feet in the next 50 years.
So, Magnus, where are we heading as a species? Will we find the courage, as you suggest, to come together as part of a Global Economy, to let go of the ideological nonsense, and to work intelligently to solve the crises we face by giving everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future, by creating jobs which protect the environment?
Or will we, instead, render the possibility of Hope null and void, by stubbornly clinging to what we happen to think and what we happen to believe, and thereby bring to ourselves the nightmarish reality of death, destruction, and despair?
That is the choice we now face. It’s decision time, and everything we know and love hangs in the balance. It’s time to get over ourselves, and beyond our differences. It’s time, before time runs out, to dream the impossible, and to make the impossible come true.
First of all, I could give a damn about Israel. Before 1950 the country was called Palestine, after 1950, it’s called Israel and Palestinians are in a freakin settlement. Something just don’t add up, but I do know one thing, if you take land with blood, you have to keep land with blood, not too mention Israel is in the top 5 for weapons exporter so that’s just their karma…and by the way the U.S is the number one arms exporter in the world. So it’s kind of hypocritical to try to control nukes when we sell the most guns my friend, but that’s another story, back to Iran. The Iranians didn’t start chanting “Death to USA” until we supported Iraq when they INVADED their country and gave Saddam Chemical weapons to use on the Iranians and Kurds. Notice the correlation to them hating us after we assisted their invaders? Everybody needs to do their research and see that we have been the aggressors in most of these conflicts. Arab countries didn’t just start hating us for no reason. We got involved in their “Grown Folks” business and we got burnt like banging a prostitute with no rubber. Israel has bomb Syria’s nuclear site in the past and Syria did nothing about it. I don’t think Iran will tolerate that. And if Israel attacks Iran and Iran fights back, what do you think we are going to do? Sit around and cheer on Israel? Go to this website mikesavage.com He is a conservative radio hosts. He sells t-shirts that say “get out of Iraq and into Iran”, these “Republican Christian Conservative” cook-suckers want more war. I don’t believe in attacking a country if they haven’t attacked us first or have any plans to attack us. Why would Iran want to go to war with anybody? It’s a freakin waste of money and lives. That war crap is played out for developed countries. Israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons, nobody says anything, and the United States has 10,000 nuclear warheads and has the audacity to tell another country that they can’t have nukes? Am I missing something here? Who da heck are you to tell any country what they can or can’t have? Plus there is no evidence that Iran has nuclear weapons, and hell McCain just mentioned the other day that he wants us to build more nuclear reactors so that we use less fuel for electricity. That’s what Iran is doing, so why does it seem like we are set to invade them? You see my friends, there is no way to win the war in Iraq, the U.S just wants army bases there so that they can attack Iran and use the Iraqi people as a human shield. I figure they want to control the Middle East. Open up your minds, this war on terror will never end unless we leave the Arabs the hell alone. Do you research, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War and read it for yourselves. Why do you think the much of the Middle East hates our government? We keep trying to play them like chess pieces and trying to control what goes on over there. We are the number 1 arms exporter in the world. Many of our so called enemies over there were our allies at one point and have a whole lot of weapons we gave them for free, sold, or that were made in the good ol’ U.S of A. So instead of our government giving us healthcare and education with the money we give them in taxes, they want to start wars and make money off wars with weapons and given contracts to their buddies and none of that war money or should I say “blood money” comes back to us. I’m sick of this crap. If we do invade Iran, something needs to be done to stop it or prevent it, b/c my friends that’s World War Three. Russia, China, Venezuela got money in Iran, do you think they will sit back and watch? These other Arab countries aren’t going to sit there and let Israel, Brittan and United States just attack their brother. Wake up, some of ya’ll will be in freakin shock when you or your sons are drafted into a bulls**t war. Every dude I know that went to Iraq or Afghanistan said they froze the first time they stepped out on the war zone. Go paint-balling one of these days with your friends. Those paintballs go mighty fast, you can hear them when the whiz by your ear or graze you and they sting a little when you get hit. Now imagine that crap with real bullets, that’s what war is-a big game of paintball with real bullets. It’s something we don’t take seriously, but our government is in a military conflict like every year. I can’t remember not one peaceful year we have ever had since I was a kid. Some people may say we are the world police, but why are we the number one arms exporter as well? Just imagine if the police department owned a majority of the gun shops? You do the math.
Hi C-Red. It is sad, the war industry is engrossing, way more than any other thing, and that keeps the war moving on, one ending and another one starting. We are relatively all responsible, because you don’t see a single country who is not involved, even in countries where people are starving, you see a grou of people somehow holding the guns that the others don’t have and you see injustice every where. You can’t imagnie a state without weapons and a mighty arming backing the state, the interests, the people and the boundaries of that state. I guess, the only way to fight creation of wars is to say no to violence, well people of most countries do, but do they hold the power? who holds the poer? of course the authorities, even if they are chosen by people, the moment they step into office, they have the destiniy of people in their hands, no one in particular can control them, the only way to get them out of the office is replacing them with some other who might make some other mistakes while we cannot be directly affective, or we should rebel, well, as the history mirros, the revolt would first deconstruct, and that takes perhaps few days, but to rebuild the whole mess would take ages. We people end up objecting the ones whom we find more powerful, but in case we gain the same power, what do you think we would do? Perhaps the same things? Or worse? I have personally given up on thinking there is a possible way to control all this mess, personally I believe in Random act of Kindness and Charity, and having hope in the creator, knowing that he knows all and he would see it if I have some good intentions. I hope Middle East is safed from the conpetition and the confrontations of the great powers, this is not a very big region, but it has some very complicated issues, that all the people of the region might come to the point that yes we should all help one another to get out of this dead end. Perhaps that way it will be possible. That way perhaps G-d will send his blessings as well. Amen
Jina my deer, you are stupid enough to nuke you self off.
Elinor, God is a good Guy, but history proves that He often leaves it up to us to choose which way we want to go. If we choose a Holocaust, He says, “Go ahead, see if that works for you.” If we choose Global Warming, He says, “Wonderful, let’s see how that works out.” God is the creative energy of the universe,that allows for the possibility of all things. He gave us the common sense to sort it all out, and if we want to play God, then we better know what the hell we’re doing. If we make the wrong decisions, we’re going down, as have 99% of all the species who have lived on this good earth.
C-Red, I respect some of your points, and can see some of your frustrations. But whatever solution you propose has to address the realities on the ground. So here is the reality.
We’ve created a bit of a mess for ourselves, to say the least. Some 200 years ago we decided to run our economies by burning fossil fuels. Now we realize that we may be turning the thermostat up on this planet, and that by the year 2050 the sea level may rise 20 feet and about 60% of humanity will be flooded.
The second problem is that of the 6 billion people on earth, 1 billion is well off economically, 1 billion is beginning to hook up economically with them, 4 billion are poor, and of these, 1 billion are starving to death.
And the third problem is that there are millions of ideological extremists out there who are keeping their own people down, and who are plotting, as we speak, to bring the U.S. and the Western world down as well.
Now, it’s OK to say that the U.S. should stay out of the Middle East. But do you really think that would solve these problems. Or would it make the problems worse by allowing the extremists to take over the oil, and to use these profits to fulfill their destructive agendas?
My solution is not to detach ourselves from the Middle East. I think we should fully engage and Sell a Vision of Hope there. We should speak to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity. We should invest in jobs which protect the environment. We should inspire each other with a sense of hope. We should sustain the hope with public diplomacy. And we should continue fighting against the forces of ideological extremism, wherever they may be found, but position the fight within a Vision of Hope. We should elevate the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose. We are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a war to realize a Vision of Hope. There’s a big difference.
Would you agree with this kind of approach, or do you think that something else would work better?
Dear Nissim
Tahnk you for sharing your wisdom and your kind remarks. When it comes to Holocaust I don’t believe that people who faced Holocaust could change what was happening to them. They did not have the power to fight back, they did not have the power to deal with what was happening to them. Many tried to run away, many stayed back, they had no means to keep themselves out of the trouble. Not that G-d planned that, some times evil prevails. At the same time, I say it is Middle East who sought the engagement of America in the first place, when America is the main importer of oil and the main exporter to the region, some how it shares with the region. You cannot share with some one and then when you are losing blame it all on the other party. Well, all countries are interdependent. As a whole we all can survive, and if we learn to tolerate one another and live in a way we can all survive, that is good, if we don’t learn that, evil will befall, because people who think positive are busy cometing, trying to dominate the other. At the same time, I don’t find the people who were lost in Holocaust wasted, G-d will take care of them and he will compensate for their loss. I hope we make sure these tragedies do not happen angain to any people at any rate. Well, I am happy about the truce in Gaza any way.
Ok my friends let’s go back to history. What if we never helped Israel take that land? What if we never tried to play chess with the Middle East? Why do you think the Arabs hate us? Were we minding our own business and they decided one day to hate us? No, first of all we help GAVE Israel to the Jews. Before 1950 the country was called Palestine, after 1950, it’s called Israel and Palestinians are in a freakin settlement. Something just don’t add up, but I do know one thing, if you take land with blood, you have to keep land with blood, not too mention Israel is in the top 5 for weapons exporter so that’s just their karma…and by the way the U.S is the number one arms exporter in the world. So it’s kind of hypocritical to try to control nukes when we sell the most guns and have 10,000 nuclear warheads ourselves my friend, but that’s another story, back to Iran. We GAVE Saddam Hussein chemical weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION to use on the Iranians and Kurds. Notice the correlation to them hating us after we assisted their INVADERS? Last time I remember it is WRONG to invade another country, but IRAQ did just that, and did we try to make peace? No we said hey Saddam, here are some weapons, intelligence and support to go kill those Arabs in Iran. THAT IS PLAIN WRONG MY FRIENDS!!! So when the Iranians held us hostage afterwards, it wasn’t unprovoked. I’m not condoning it, but they had somewhat of a reseson to be upset with us, maybe some of their family died from the weapons we gave to the Iraq? Everybody needs to do their research and see that we have been the aggressors in most of these conflicts. Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War, IT’S IN YOUR HISTORY BOOKS EVERYBODY. Arab countries didn’t just start hating us for no reason. Remember the Beirut bombing? Well the history books don’t tell you that the CIA was arming and training a rebel group to overthrow the government. You see we try to use them as chess pieces to influence the outcomes and that’s the problem. USA wasn’t always perfect, remember slavery? Jim Crow Laws? Nobody from other countries invaded us or had an embargo on us so that we could give blacks equal rights. Women couldn’t vote nor had too many rights, but they protested and fought to get their rights. You see if we don’t like how they live, let them settle it. We settled our own demons with no help from any country so why can’t they? If we get out of their country and leave them alone show them a little respect, maybe they won’t hate us or charge so much for gas. Why do we have missionaries try to convert other religions to Christianity? We would be pissed the hell off if Muslim missionaries came to our country trying to convert us to be Muslims. You see other countries hate us because we beat our chest at other countries like we are king kong. We are too cocky. We are a Christian nation, but we are far from being as humble as Jesus was. Too many contradictions, we are the “Land of the Free” but the country was built on the backs of Slave Labor and underpaid immigrants who were taken advantage of. We are the “world Police” but sell the most weapons. Now back to the Middle East, we got involved in their “grown folks” business and we got burnt like having sex with a prostitute with out protection. I say let’s leave the Middle East alone cold turkey and let them be to themselves. Of course it is too late so basically we sealed our own fate, /c all of you war mongers hate the Arabs or should I say “Sand Ni@@ers” because they don’t believe in Jesus Christ. But the Jews don’t wither so why more hatred for the Arabs? Is it because of their darker skin? He they attacked us a few times, but it’s in response to our meddling in their affairs. Anyways, I’m in no way against Jews, but holding on to Israel is going to lead to World War three and you guys don’t seem to give a damn. Man up and split the land in two and call it a day. But no, you guys want to be greedy and settle on as much land as possible. Meanwhile the rest of the world has to suffer. So to be honest, I don’t support the existence of Israel, b/c I see more peace w/o it. Like I said earlier, if you take land with blood, you will have to keep it with blood. You guys really need to consider splitting the land for the sake of peace. Anyways, All of you republican Christian conservative war mongers…um what would Jesus do? He doesn’t like war. Thou shall not kill is a ten commandment. Anyways, I am a black man of Haitian decent and these are my views. I want peace, free healthcare and free education for all!!!!! Is that too much to ask for?
And to Elinor, you sound like suck a sweetheart. This was part of your response:
“I have personally given up on thinking there is a possible way to control all this mess, personally I believe in Random act of Kindness and Charity, and having hope in the creator, knowing that he knows all and he would see it if I have some good intentions”
I totally feel the same way. All I can do is give my opinion and try to set an individual example and just be a peaceful man. This world is like a twilight zone, people talk all this war, but they are not the ones with the gun in their hand.
C-red, my friend, Iran held hostages before Saddam invaded us. Israel was not established through American help. Israel was established after 100 years of planning of a group of people who were frustrated with the discrimination, and later with the mass migration of those who run away from Holocaust and then through many green lights that the same powers that overcame the Ottomons and disintegrated the Empire signalled, and then with the efforts of people who decided to stay there at any rate, to plant over the rocks and uproot the thorns, to resist to unwelcoming environment, and the ones who do not give up hope in the face of all the conflicts that do not originate in the region, but is fuleed by some other parties who benefit from this ongong conflict. At the same time, you cannot blame all these little little countries of Middle East with too much oil and little population to seek the engagement of a Big Guy like USA, to patraol the region and safeguard his own interests + those of his allies or his Bazaar in the Mideast. Israel And Arab countries, even Iran, they all had thie share of different phases of relationship with the USA. And not only USa, all other countries right now who are cometing over purchasing and investing in the wealth and the trade capacities here in the Middle Eadt, now even China and big multi national comanies are present in the region and USA, those countries, the the authorities in charge of all these little little wealthy countries ( wealthy for the authorities perhaps) they all need to come to a balance.I don’t believe you and me would count, we can only say No to the violence, as much as we can. You want to blame only USA, but all our countries are there to be blamed, what Saddam did to us, perhaps we do to our minorities. We do it to the people who cannot help themselves in the name of order. This is how the story goes.
My dear Anti Semite C-Red, The US (AKA your WE) NEVER helped Israel really before 1968. The French and the Brits did it instead. And of course Israel helped herself a bit.
Palestine is the Latin name of Israel land and it has nothing to do with Arabs. There is no even “P” in Arabic, so calm down and get down of your hook. “Palestine” is the geographic term of the land and has nothing to do with nationality. The British occupation of the land in 1917 brought that name back to the land, not the Arabs invented that name nor were they link into. As a matter of fact the name was link to Jews and when Anti Semites in Europe chased Jews the shout at them: “Jews go to Palestine”.
Under the British occupation all people had British mandate of Palestine certificates. Jews were Palestinian Jews and Arabs were Palestinian Arabs. The “Palestine” term was ‘freed’ by the Jews after they called their new state ‘Israel’. The same process was executed in Jordan, that dwells in the eastern part of mandate Palestine and then the citizens seized to be called “Palestinians” when it turn to be independent state.
The “Arab Palestinian people” is a mix of Arabs and non Arab Muslims that most of them immigrated to Palestine after starting the Zionist project in the end of the 19th century. There have never been any Arab Palestinian people in Palestine in history. Only in the 70th the remaining Arabs in the occupied territories started to call themselves “Palestinians” rather than “Arab Palestinians”.
Arab Muslims leaders are quite extreme nuts and they should dealt by this standard. The US sold ammunition to SadDamn not because his nice eyes but because he was in war with another fanatic Muslims – Iran, that was treated the US as a crouch. So the US did a well pass when they gave SadDamn the minimum weapons to keep and stand in front the Iranian aggression.
Arabs hate to the US and the west is not political but religious. No any US hugging step will turn the Muslims to love the Judeo-Christian western culture. The Jihad psycho is in the head of every new born Muslim. The clashes among the fractions are only in the beginning. Just wait and see how Muslims blow themselves all around the world with out any connection to the Palestinian crisis. I would even say that Most Arabs don’t like the “Palestinians”, and each time they use them it is only a pretax and beneficial for their case.
The land was already split in 1922 and the eastern part was given to the Hashemite kingdom to rule the Arabs in Palestine. The Brits failed to accomplish mission than and to give the other part – the western part – to the Jews as planned before. That is the beginning of the continuous conflict between Jewish Palestinians and Arab Palestinians.
let me tell all you idiots the truth, if i were president, iran would of done been blown back to the 1st century. along with russia,and all of the other murdurers. and the war with iraq would of been a done deal in no more than a day.
Janice,
Well then its a good thing you’re not President…God gave you a mind, do us a favor and try to use it when you comment here.
Yea I seemed to have got a time frame wrong with certain events involving the Iran hostage situation, so i went to Wilkpedia, and here goes: The Iran hostage crisis (Persian: تصرف سفارت آمریکا) was a diplomatic crisis between Iran and the United States where 52 U.S. diplomats were held hostage for 444 days from November 4, 1979 to January 20, 1981, after a group of students took over the American embassy in support of Iran’s revolution.[2]
In Iran, the incident was seen by many as a blow against U.S. influence in Iran and its support of the recently fallen Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, who had been restored to power by a CIA-funded coup in 1953 and who had recently been allowed into the United States for cancer treatment. In the United States, the hostage-taking was widely seen as an outrage violating a centuries-old principle of international law granting diplomats immunity from arrest and diplomatic compounds sovereignty in the territory of the host country they occupy.[3]
You see, like I said earlier, if we keep meddling in their affair then we get burnt like having unprotected intercourse with a postitute. If we leave hem alone, they leave us alone. i’m just sick of it all. And you are right, it’s not just the U.S, but Brittain, Russia and probably some other “anglo-saxon” country. Even though I was wrong, i was still right. We get involve in their affair we get burnt.
To my man Abe Bird
You call me an Anti Semite lol, funny, I really know nothing about Jewish people to hate them. I just know this conflict is bringing a lot of drama to this planet. You are right, it’s not just the U.S.A, but other “Anglo Saxon” countries like Brittan and France who occupied my homeland and enslaved my ancestors in Haiti. Not only did they enslave us, but made us pay reparations for winning our freedom. Yes ya boy Napoleon came back with 8 gun ships and forced us to pay reparations. It was the equivalent of 22 billion dollars and we never quite got on our feet because of that. Hell the United Nations didn’t even acknowledge us until it was paid back. But you see you also made my point. The great “Anglo Saxon’ countries seem to be the rot of a lot of these issues. All these ethnic conflicts you see in Africa have roots to the imperialist days, just like this conflict. Now back to Israel, why don’t you guys just go back to how the land was originally suppose to be split in 1922? I’m not saying give up Israel, but you have to offer a little bit more than the 2 acres of land you guys always seem to offer. Until then, there will be conflict. Great, you guys have a country, but who pays the price? Like I keep saying you obtain land by blood, you have to keep land by blood. Now nobody on this blog has yet to show me an unprovoked attack or even unjustified hatred towards the U.S from Arabs…that’s right because they are only reacting to our attempt to play the entire Middle East like a game of chess. Once again my point is proven. As for Janice, um….the good Ol’ U.S of A ain’t a bunch of saints either. Ever heard of slavery? Jim Crow Laws? Manifest Destiny? Ask the Native Americans and Blacks if we were always such a wholesome country. As for Janice, I don’t argue with idoits so I will not even respond, but I can tell that you are a simple minded Republican Conservation who just does as they are told by their republican party.
Hi Abe,
I am not talking about history, I am talking about as far as some 60 yeara back, or perhaps more, at the time of the disintegration of Ottomon Empire. Well in the same region that belonged to the Ottomons and then it was mandated by the British, Jewish people and Arab people lived and they both libed for long. Israel When it weas created did not mean to push back the Arab population, but gradually because the countries around did not approve of the creation of the state of Israel ( one of the countrties created after the disintegration of the Empire), the conflict is still afresh, but, people of that region do need to live like people elewhere and the time has approached that an effective solution brings the conflict to its terminal state. We can’t stay out of region and speak passinately siding with one party again the other, you know Abe, that wouldn’t help, becuase there is life going on there, and people’s lives are interdependent, from both sides, with all the conflict, they work together, they have bussiness together and they live like people living in all other regions of the world. It would be helpful if we accordingly change the tone and make it less tense and wish for the best. nu? :
hi d.b.:
i agree with what you say. the u.s. has been looking for a reason to attack iran and take over the middle east. the propaganda machine has been running for almost a year now in the u.s. time is running out as GW bush will be leaving the white house soon….and so the beat goes on….hopefully it will not be his buddy mccain who takes over the royal seat!!!!!!!!!!!
Elisa
souinds like Mew though 
but I am sure it will be good 
I don’t want to sound very optimisic, but I am hopeful that the problems will be solved in a peaceful manner. I wish for a hamoneous Middle East where the States back the people and human rightsa dnt hey are friends and allies. Oh if that happens we can definitely be a grea union, like EU? We will be MEU
elinor,
I hope for the sake of the middle east that peace is established. My best thoughts are with you and all of Iran….take care.
Elisa
Amen to your prayer my dear, Be well 
I hope that peace is established as well dear elisa, when I expose my ears and eyes to the portions of news that shake the media and the media viewers, I might think it is less probable, but then i try to remember, what we grasp through the media is just a portion of reality, and not the better portion
I’m from Israel and I love my country. As such I fear our “leaders” sometimes more that I fear our ennemies and for obvious reasons – see the Lebanese war, in this respect I have much in common with American citizens – see the Afgan and Iraq wars and their tolls.
The same scenario is repeating itself with Iran…not mass destruc…but nuclear threat..and so on. The Iranians don’t scare me. I’m scared of my “leaders” and Pres. Bush backing them.
I may not agree word for word with this post but there is some sense to it.
dave
Yeah, you love you country and I love mine. I always had this dream of visiting your country, while people there are done with the conflict, there is so much there that we would love to see. You know, for some time I was on a farmhouse and detached from the rest of modern world. I was a humble peasant feeding chickens and sheep, picking vegetables and weeding. Now that I am back, every thing feels so strange, specially whatever that conneected to the conflicts. I genuinely believe people have no role in whatever happens, that govenments cannot be changed unless they are expired. I wish well for all people and I wish for a beter Middle East.
we ieanian hate ahmadi nejad and our islamic government we are not arab we are persians and most of us even arent moslim and if we are moslim we dont give a shit to islam.
but the problem of bombing our country is different to any thing else.
we are not pelestinians we are IRANIANS we did,nt let any one come to our land and we wont let.
just give it a try