Israel Should Attack Iran
I say, go ahead, I like the sound of that. I’ll tell you why.
Not long after Iraq was discovered to be a colossal blunder, war drums began to pound for Iran. A not so democratic place with an oppressive regime who’s a danger to its neighbors and the U.S. as well as being a state sponsor of terror, blah blah blah, etc etc. Well I’ve heard this story before and I didn’t like how it turned out.
Who really wants war with Iran? Pat Buchanan once answered that question with…”Only Dick Cheney, Senator Joe Lieberman and the Israeli Lobby”
But what are the reasons for wanting war with Iran? You’ve heard it an endless number of times, nuclear weapons, desire to wipe Israel off the map, funding Hezbollah, working with Syria, etc. Somethings off about that though, there are many countries who hate Israel, fund terrorism and probably wouldnt mind if Israel didnt exist anymore. Ironically the U.S. wants to give them a nuclear program. One being Egypt and the other, the biggest terrorist state in all the world…Saudi Arabia.
So why would the U.S. and Israel feel so comfortable allowing these countries to have nuclear energy while threatening Iran’s destruction over it? There are two reasons.
First, a good share of Israeli ministers and Knesset members are crazy, bold and brazen, much more than Ahmadinejad. They believe they can fight the whole world, they want to punish people who dont like Zionists and who dislike Israel and they would like the U.S. to do the job for them. They are nuts! Even in the U.S. which is so heavily influenced by the Israeli lobby, these guys are pushing their luck and wielding more power than they poses. On top of all that the most staunch “bomb Iran” members of Israeli Government are Iranians themselves. Jews born and raised in Iran or whose parents immigrated from Iran and who desperately want revenge on a country they feel bitter towards. In short, they have an axe to grind.
The most recent and loudest anti-Iran mouth piece in Israel is Shaul Mofaz an Iranian Jew born in Tehran in 1948. His words, “”If Iran continues its nuclear arms program — we will attack it”, buzz like a fly in my ear.
The U.S. has its own reason which comes in two parts. First because Israel is crying in their ear about it and they feel obligated to comply but two because of something monetary, surprise surprise. In actuality the U.S. will give Nuclear power to anyone, on one condition, that they buy the enriched uranium from them. Ah, now this smells familiar. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India all have to buy enriched uranium from the U.S. which is extremely expensive as you can imagine. Iran however wants to enrich their own uranium, thats a big no, no and when you are siting on an oil gold mine, thats enough to go to war over. Its not hard to understand or believe. We already know that Iran hasn’t had anything close to a weapons program since 2003, we know that the enrichment of Iran’s uranium is not enough for weapons use and we know that we’ve been sold this type of fear mongering and propaganda before, so don’t look so surprised.
Is punishing an oppressive government reason for war? No, if the U.S. is feeling so heroic they can stop ignoring the rest of the world transgressions.
Is Iran a severely oppressive regime…Yes! Is Iran a supporter and funder of groups deemed terrorists by much of the world…Yes! Is Ahmadinejad a little crazy…Yes! (even though I think hes more stupid and antagonistic than crazy). Is Iran going to attack Israel unprovoked…No! Don’t think for a second that the leaders of Iran would dare threaten their own power by attacking Israel.
However if Israel doesn’t want to wait for the U.S. to attack Iran and they want to do it themselves I say go ahead. Fight your own war, see if you can handle it, see if your people will put up with it, see if it doesn’t threaten your existence more than Iran’s nuclear program ever did. I don’t believe Israel has much hope against Iran unless they intend to use a nuke of their own.
Remember that Iran is a country with half a million active troops, 350 thousand reserve and 11.4 million paramilitary. Making them the largest military force in the world. So go ahead, show them what you got, keep talking the tough talk and fight your own battles.
del.icio.us
BlogMemes
Digg
StumbleUpon
Technorati
Google
Reddit
Facebook
TwitThis
Mixx
Loading ...
I’d rather not see wider war so will ignore that part of your comments but..
“Remember that Iran is a country with half a million active troops, 350 thousand reserve and 11.4 million paramilitary. Making them the largest military force in the world. So go ahead, show them what you got, keep talking the tough talk and fight your own battles.”
As it pertains to the Iranian military. Remember they fought a 10 year war with Iraq killing millions (both sides) and both fought to a draw.
The US military destroyed the Iraqi Army in a few weeks with a smaller force.
I’ve not seen a ME military thats worth anything, Syrian, Morrocan, Egyptian, SA, UAE, Jordanian, whatever…they basically suck with poor officers (promoted politically if they support the regime) no NCO corps and very uneducated/poorly trained soldiers. Poor organization, weak leadership and no prof instituted training. Numbers don’t tell the story.
They do make good suiciders though.
> I say, go ahead, I like the sound of that. I’ll tell you why.
Moron. Sure let’s just do it. Start a war! Death. Chaos. In particular “moron” and “chaos” aren’t really the phrases I want to use. But colorful language will stop this comment from getting posted.
I live in the US and it never fails to surprise me how many gung ho neo-cons baying for war - have never been in a war themselves - their children have never been in a war - and their grandchildren will never be in a war.
War is hell.
but there is a problem… this “longest military force in the world” can’t march toward Jerusalem’s gates.
Iraqi military had weapons from the 70s and 80s because of all the sanctions etc while Iran has “modern” arms. Iraq was a dead snake, taking glory for a beating a dead thing doesn’t make you so powerful.
It seems to me that an attack on Iran may already be a foregone conclusion. The Bush administration has been looking for an excuse to attack Iran. The Iranians aren’t helping themselves any. If they truly have nothing to hide then stop acting like you do. Keep calling for the destruction of Israel and stating you have a right to enrich uranium and the next thing you know your nation will be destroyed. Nice leadership mullahs! Bravado and claims of sovereign rights will mean nothing. A final word: A lame duck American President that has a very low IQ and is more concerned about his legacy is a very dangerous person to bluff. Looks like Iran has been called. Your deal Iran, raise or fold?
Dear author, seems you missed the biggest motivation for the attack. Ahmadinijad is POPULAR. As much as pundits claim his support is falling in Iran, compared to Olmert in Israel, and the dictators in Egypt and Saudi Arabia he’s a rock star. And as Iran grows more popular from Lebanon to Iraq, the only thing worse from an american point of view than having thousands of US soldiers killed and maimed to create middle-eastern democracies is to have created democracies where pro-iranian, anti-american viewpoints prevail.
One way to try to undermine Iran’s popularity is to sabotage its security, which the west is attempting to do psychologically (with threats), and if that fails, through some shock-and-awe type military strike to humiliate them. Only problem with all this is each threat pushes gas up ten bucks a barrel, making Iran’s oil-exporting economy richer, and Iran may already have influence in too many places for a military strike to reverse the regional momentum.
There are 200million non-israelis, and 6million israelis in the region. That’s 97% against 3%. If even 10% of the majority rallies behind a popular movement against those they see as foreign invaders, it’s Ghandi, Hugo Chavez, Mandela, etc. all over again and Israel looks even more like South Africa trying to suppress the masses. But if Iran is too preoccupied with its own defense to lead the people of the region… voila! Destabilizing Iran buys Israel a few years more to get itself together.
But alas, Israel’s greatest enemy is its own internal moral and demographic crises… someday the mothers will want to raise happy and moral Jewish children, and Israel is no place for that. Do a little research on school violence there…
“Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India all have to buy enriched uranium from the U.S. which is extremely expensive as you can imagine. Iran however wants to enrich their own uranium, thats a big no, no and when you are siting on an oil gold mine, thats enough to go to war over.”
That makes a lot of sense.
I am an Iranian who moved to Canada three years ago. I went to school in Iran. The people and the kids in Iran in fact like Americans!
Iranian people as well as the government are facing so many internal problems that they wouldn’t even think of attacking another country. What they have always wanted is to own their capital and not having to buy their own resources from US or any other country.
Iran is going to be busy for a while fighting inflation and unemployment. The people WILL fix the government in time. If there is no war, Iran will become a better place and adapt better government. The conservatives wont rule for ever, most people hate them.
I really hope that no country will attack Iran (im pretty sure Iran wont initiate the war). Not just because all my relative and old friends are there, but also because I know Iran has always been about Art and Peace. There are friendly and peaceful people, just like you, living there. Like most people in the world they just want to have a reasonable life. They are peaceful but extremely protective of their family and land.
If you are an American reading this, please try to forget about what media force you to think and see if you can find the real story. Show your support for peace.
“Iran IS NOT and has NEVER been a threat to US”
Ahmadinejad makes regular threats against Israel’s existence and follows up those threats by funding terrorist groups who are lobbing missles into Israel on a daily basis. From our point of view, the man may be a nutcase, but he is also a serious nutcase, with the resources to carry out his nutty plans.
I am neither a bitter Iranian nor a bold and brazen Knesset member. I am a regular Israeli, an immigrant from the US, rather central/moderate in my political views (and I vote and demonstrate accordingly)…and living in Tel Aviv. Or, in other words, the first target if Ahmadinejad does what he has been saying he is going to do. (Ironically, a strike here would not only wipe out a sizeable Arab population, but would also gut the left-wing parties who are the most vocal opponents of military action). From my point of view, I can either trust the bold and brazen Knesset members and the bitter Iraquis–all of whom are facing the same existential threat and who will go down if I do, or I can trust your assertion that “golly, that guy may be a nutcase but he does not really mean what he says”.
We Jews took that route before, in the 1930’s, in respect to Adolf Hitler. It did not help Germany’s war effort or the population to have so much in the way of resources devoted to wiping out Jews, gays, gypsies and other undesireable populations. It did not matter. They did it anyway. Plenty of leaders do not act in the best interest of their countries. Sometimes madmen really do get to carry out their schemes.
I am alive today because my great grandfather did take Hitler seriously and one by one, he got his kids out of Poland and to the United States. Each one sent for the next. My grandmother was the last to get out, in 1939. My great-grandfather and the youngest brother never made it out.
Please bear in mind that I mentioned the Holocaust intentionally. That is what I, a regular, moderate Israeli, see when I see footage of Ahmadinejad threatening to wipe me off the map. As for Iran’s army…and they will be any smaller if we sit on our asses and wait for that man to nuke us?
Forget the rhetoric. Speak to me tachlis, to the point. As an Israeli, why should I trust you? What basis do you have for your assertions?
Iranians and Israelis, do us all a favour and nuke each other.
kthxbi!!!
Hmmmm…an option. Of course, the nuclear fallout would probably wipe out the Israeli Arab and the Palestinian populations as well. Are you okay with that?
Three birds with with a single exchange of nukes. World peas here it comes.
BTW, You say Ahmadinejad regularly makes threat to wipe out Israel. Where I get my news, Israeli politicians say the exact same thing about Iran, of course this never makes it on CNN or FOX where you probably get your news from. I see no difference. At the same time, Ahmadinejad have yet to say he wants to wipe Israel like CNN ones reported. Of course the enlightened masses figured out that the translation was bogus and the fools who pay homage to anything TV says accepted as a fact.
At the same time, Israel does something worse to Palestinians on a daily basis than the silly tin cans being fired from wherever. And your Holocaust idea falls on deaf ears because to a degree your act just like the Nazis who murdered your people.
Am not going to respond to the last paragraph as I already know (from past experience) that we are not going to agree.
I get my news primarily from Kol Israel (radio news–once an hour) and the Haaretz Online Edition. I tend to go more with the English version, as it is easier, but will refer to the Hebrew version as the information tends to be more complete and up-to-date. Every once in a while I use YNet. Here, I tend to go to the Hebrew version, but am linking to the English for your convenience; I suspect your browser will not recognize Hebrew characters. There is also the Jerusalem Post, but I rarely refer to them. Their reputation for journalistic quality is not the highest.
In respect to television news programs, I rarely watch them (am embarrassed–one of my resolutions is to start), but when I do I always watch the local news and analysis programs and never CNN, BBC or Fox. I see no reason to get local news from an agency in the States or Great Britain and have no particular interest in getting lots of US/British news.
As to whether local media coverage is slanted in favor of the left or the right depends on who you ask. Ask a right-wing person and they will tell you that the media is all slanted left. Ask someone from the left-wing and they will tell you exactly the opposite–that it is slanted to the right. In general, Haaretz is known as being left wing and Jerusalem Post as right wing. Ynet–probably more central, but do not read it often enough to really be able to say. There are other news sources which are more solidly aligned with one side or another, be it religious or political stream. Since I am solidly aligned with the center, these have no particular appeal to me.
My coverage does not refer to destroying Iran, but rather destroying the nukes. Could you provide me with links to where you see reports where we are threatening to wipe Iran off the map? I am curious; I would like to try and cross-reference with sources here.
Jina, give the Iranians you adress. May be they’ll visit you too. blahhbooooom !!
When a Muslim talks peace I don’t believe him.
When a Muslim talks war I damn believe him and take actions immidiately.
Its time to bomb Iran!
Touche!
You must be pretty guillable, then. Governments take advantage of people like you all the time. I thought humans were meant to be smarter than this instead of constantly falling for the cheap fear mongering and propoganda that the mainstream smothers us all with.
Wise up folks. Arrogrance and ignorance will soon cause yet another regional war.
True true Esra’a.
What do you all think about non-violent movements for peace? I just took a seminar on it.
I hope this is not going to happen.
Gila,
I think your words are full of obvious hypocrisies, not to mention that your very small nation is believed by most in the Middle East and around the world, to be the biggest threat to the region. You have nuclear weapons, and you also have angry, reckless and aggressive decision makers who have shown a clear lust for war (much to the dismay of many of your innocent neighbors.)
Israeli policies have been disguised as defensive when in reality, they are targeted at causing chaos and anarchy to your enemies.
In saying that, no one is completely innocent in this, but regarding threats, Arabs should be far more fearful of you, then you of them..
Jina,
It’s not the ‘arms’ that make good armies it’s the people, soldiers etc. and I suspect Iran has (by virtue of its stalemate with Iraq) a comparable army of soldiers….politically led by weak officers promoted because of political/religious affiliation and a basically uneducated/indecisive foot soldier.
Saudi Arabia has the latest weapons but their military stinks, fat, lazy and no initiative whatsoever. When the 1st Gulf war began (air war) every Saudi soldier (officers and enlisted) at Al Jabo loaded up in their vehicles and left the border, deserted their post, without a fight and ran away. I had 8 US soldiers and we stayed. I could go on for hours about similar instances.
Patb,
You’re not the first one to compare the U.S. battle against the Iraq army to the draw between Iraq and Iran in the 80’s. However 20 years have passed number 1 and number 2, the U.S. army took down the formal Iraqi Army quite easily but theyve been getting slaughtered and entangled for the past several years with no recognizable advancements, by who? The military equivalent of farmers with pitch forks. Untrained soldiers with no direct leadership at all, running around in sandle’s!
Why? Because in war you can never defeat men on their own soil using guerilla war fair. The strongest armies in the world can not manage to defeat guerrilla fighters and history is full of examples from Vietnam all the way back to the American Revolution which was won largely through the use of Guerrilla war fair by American farmers versus the strongest Army in the world at that time.
So who do you think 11.4 million paramilitary are? They are people who sell fruit or work on cars during the day and pick up AK-47’s at night.
What I would like that Bush, Olmert and Ahmadinejad sat around a table, be some grown ups for one time and settle this damn dispute. There is no advantage for any country at all.
Each country has its own peace of land, live with that. American forces should be brought back to the states and muslim-extremist should also be wise to call off their bloody attacks on the civilians of Iraq. Iran should allow UN Inspectors, if they are speaking the truth about the wish of only gaining energy by its nuclear plants, why not let those UN Inspectors do there job. A small price to convince other people about your serious intentions. For president Ahmadinejad, please apologies for your ‘desire’ to getting Israel of the face of the planet. Don’t you have any ethics? No feelings towards each other? Live and let live. A Jew, A Hindoe, A Christian, A Muslim….what does it matter? We are ALL people. Let’s make this world better and start by getting into a dialog with each other.
Wow… so not one person in here can offer up a convincing argument to reassure an Israeli for your starry-eyed hear-no-evil see-no-evil view of the mullahs who run Iran???? The best you come up with is diversion, and “well israel does it too,” and the lame hypocrisy charges that are totally useless to convincing an Israeli who has a legitimate fear for their own security…. i thought you kids were ‘progressives’ in here, open to other viewpoints, and proud about your being able to advocate the position of “the Other,” but you can’t even face the very real perspective of an israeli who has had family wiped out in the Holocaust (where the world was offering the same lame arguments you idiots are making right now), who sees the world’s most notorious living anti-Semite threatening to wipe her country off the map, while openly enriching uranium, perfecting weapons delivery systems, sponsoring paramilitary forces along her country’s borders, arming them with Iranian weapons, and brazenly provoking the world with Holocaust denial conferences and proclamations of the coming war with arrogance. Not even an acknowledgement that Israel faces a security threat.
Dumb as a brick. You shmucks can argue til your blue in the face that Israelis should put their heads in the sand and wish away this problem but they can’t afford your luxuries of rhetoric. You don’t even have to study national security to get it - just imagine for a second that you’re Jewish.
(the cynic in me predicts the following few posts will continue to evade the challenge or acknowledge the reality. the ultra-cynic in me predicts a string of “well imagine you’re Ahmadinejad” or some other diversionary trick to continue the evasion, or re-direct attention. Of course, this will only continue to reinforce the Israeli notion that they are alone and harden their notion that Israeli military action, desperate and destructive as it will be, remains the only alternative to the much worse prospect of a nuclear-armed Islamic Republic of Iran… its obvious that most people in this forum prefer a sugar-coated view of Iran’s nuclear program, but that merely makes you bystanders to this debate (if you can’t address the challenge openly then you’re not even a participant in the unfolding discussion - the one that counts, that is, the one that will decide the direction of this particular piece of history). Unfortunately from here in DC I can’t even argue that the US government is going to lay down the gauntlet on this one… if OBama is elected it sounds like he’s got an all-carrot, no-stick approach… the buck really does stop with Israel.
Done. And for a second, life was pretty swell.
This shallow excuse has been argued against to death. You can never secure an argument that today is becoming increasingly based on racism. Kill innocent civilians for the sake of your own security? And expect no one to fight back? Where is the logic in this? If Israelis have a right to defend themselves, then by God, so do Palestinians, and soon, so will the Iranians. Stop complaining when you’re bringing this on to yourself.
Everyone has had a black history, not just Jews. It doesn’t mean you get to be murderers without anyone holding you accountable for this ongoing terrorism and crimes. And whenever someone does, we of course have to suffer through the irrational, utterly retarded argument… “imagine you’re Jewish.” Currently, Jews are treated way better in the Middle East than most minorities, and they at least have their own country with their own powerful military and with billions in aid from the USA. What more do you want? Being a Jew sounds great! Try imagine for a second you’re a Kurd, a Sunni in a primarily Shiite country with militants (and vice versa), or a Baha’i. Then come and talk to me about the Jews. No tears wept here. You fought your war and you won, you earned your rights and security, congratulations. Now let others do the same.
Anyways, I don’t really care much for this argument. But sometimes we always get stuck with a bunch of racists trying to justify Israeli crimes against humanity, and it’s becoming very hard to let this kind of thing slide. No one sane will buy your argument, Ben. It makes no sense.
Most Arabs and Muslims here complain about Arab or Muslim terrorism. Hell, we have campaigns condemning it. We admit we have problems and terrorists among us. Try doing the same for once, instead of being a violent nationalist.
@ Gila
many people (Iranians as well as non-Iranians) may say that Ahmadinejad does not mean what he says. I, however, feel that he exactly means what he says, at least in the case of Israel being wiped off the map.
But you, and your officials, have to understand why many people in the region buy Ahmadinejad’s (or, as another example, Nasrallah’s) ideas and rhetoric, and that is not due to anti-semitism; understand it please. the Jewish state, thanks to its arrogant power as well as endless US supports, has based its policies/practices upon imposing fear on the neighbouring people/states. thus you should expect some leaders to treat you the same way you treated your neighbours, i.e. to try to impose fear on you.
@ Ben
’stop Iran or we will attack it’ is more of a hollow gesture, and the true message of Israelis is something close to this: ’stop Iran for we are afraid to
attack it’.
If it were not so, why did they attack the premitive Syrian reactor while neglecting Iranian one? Israeli officials very well know that they may come to pay a high price if a preemptive attack is undertaken by them, in which case Iran’s harsh and probably excessive reaction may be somehow justified. former defence ministry was once quoated as saying: “we are determined to produce Shahab missiles more than Peykan (the unpopular Iranian car)”, and you probably know the advertisement of Peykan producer: “every Iranian is entitled to at least one Peykan.” Therefore, Israeli officials are very eager to push US forward to play this game on behalf of them.
Mohammad,
Why should iran fight this war? If that is for the Palestinian cause, why Iran pretends to be more dedicated to the cause than the league of Arab nations? Is that for being a muslim? Is threatening Israel proportional to being muslim? Frankly speaking many people from muslim countries don’t consider Iranians muslims at all, they are not very sure Iranians acually converted to Islam from the time they were Majusis( Zarostrians). They can well support this arguement by the fact that we celebrate Majusi eves and we jump over the fire to be blessed for the new year.
What i am trying to say is attacking another country for the sake of religion, is one way of denying a religion, religions are nothere to make us fight, really, we are fools is we buy that. Religions are there so that we find the right words at the marriage ceremonies, or when they want to burry us after 120+, it is determined that we are burnt or burried and how.
Iranians are enemies of no one, I am not talking about the bunch of hypocrites
ruling us, if we were enimies of Iraqis why we are all over Iraq( again i am not talking about the IRI weapons is the hands of militants, I am talking about the pilgrims who like to go there to karbala and cry ( oh they love to cry), and buy a bunch of cheap Chinese goods there and come back home. As if they couldn’t cry back home and buy the same cheap Chinese stuff here. Nowadays i see more and more fo Chinese smiling faces in the Bazaars greeting the costumers in p0ersian language.
If We want to back Paelstinians, why not in a right way? Why should we back Chaos instead of statehood? Why at the price of being attacked? Which country does that to its own people? Backing people of other countries at the expence of being attacked?
Do you guys find this supporting genuine? A baby realises it is not so.
What I want to tell people of my region here is that we do not wish to fight any one, truely not. We do not look for trouble or making trouble, really, haven’t we had Enough of that lately? In the last 30 years specifically?
I don’t want to be pessimistic, but I believe some other countries are in charge of making us fight like Tom and Jery.
We don’t need all of this, Persian, Plestinaians, Israelis, Arabis, Turks, Kurds, What we need to fight is Ignorance, and that cannopt happen through bullets like idiots!
Esra: Governments take advantage of people like you all the time. I thought humans were meant to be smarter than this instead of constantly falling for the cheap fear mongering and propoganda that the mainstream smothers us all with Falsetinian ProPalganda and Ahmadinajad stupidity.
Wise up folks. Arrogrance and ignorance will soon cause yet another regional war. Let the Iranian fall !!!!
Elinor:
I do agree with your conclusion that some others are forcing us to pay this price on behalf of them. agreed.
however, this does not mean that the current conflict is merely due to the role Iran plays in mideast. once upon a time the problem of mideast was a number of countries who were determined to wipe another one off the map. right now, the problem is a bit different: an arrogant power is determined to further advance its own agenda, mostly through imposing fear on other states/peoples. You can not reach a stable peace unless somebody comes to balance the power of this arrogant state. and when US decides to side with this state (whatever the reasons), some of the regional powers have to do so.
lets have a look at the most recent mideast developments: Israel and Syria admitted that they may reach a peace contract, which will allow Syria to get back Golan heights. and you know, Golan heights are annexed to Israel due to a law passed in Knesset. so, why in the world has Israel decided to give back this piece of land? due to peace-loving nature of this regime? I dont think so. This decision is only the consequence of a strong Iranian presence in the region, and Israel is ready to give up on some of its interests (a very rare act) just to isolate Iran. period.
DB,
You are right about the dif of fighting uniformed vs. nonuniformed elements.
I think we’ll defeat the foreigners in Iraq (as we are) and the local issues will take care of themselves (moving that direction).
The South Viet (viet Cong) were basically wiped out by the 68 TET and the war, from that point, waged by the North Viets and was lost politically.
In Iran, if it comes to that, I’d hazard a guess of a conventional war, harsh, decisive without the follow up as in Iraq.
The Iranian ‘G’s can fight amongst themselves.
On the contrary, there is a very good reason–Olmert trying to save his own political skin. The conventional wisdom here is that Olmert is jumping into this in order to divert attention from the various corruption probes. He would start negotiations with space aliens from the planet Zarkon if that would help. Unfortunately for him, it is not working. Most of us trust Assad about as far as we can throw him and we feel about the same about Olmert. Hmmm…maybe they should enter into negotiations. Just lock them into a room for a while and ignore them…they can keep each other amused with bombast and leave us alone.
Eventually, we will have new elections. Hopefully, this will be before Olmert does anything else corrupt, scandalous or stupid. A peace treaty with Syria at this time, when it is clear that his motives are not what they should be, would qualify as all three. Just to clarify, suppose that a party runs in the next election on a platform of arriving at a peace agreement with Syria. If they get a mandate–give it a shot. And yes, isolating Iran in the form of minimizing Syria’s motiviation to providing support or serving as a pipeline for Iranian support to the terrorist groups looking to attack Israel would be an added benefit. Will some of you see that differently? Of course. It depends on how you see it. If you see Hezbollah and Hamas attacks on Israel as justified, then we will simply never agree. Rather than argue it, just accept that we have different views and that is it.
As for Israel as the arrogant state–once again–I see that there is no room for actual dialogue in that moniker(just name calling and blind hatred) so will leave that point alone.
Gila:
Reducing the whole matter to a subjective disagreement not only fails to solve the problem but also sets a permanent barrier to the way of reconciliation. this means that there is no objective mean to measure each one’s acts. I do not think so.
as for Israel-Syria issue, your picture of the current status seems to be more accurate. ok. but the main idea is still valid: a strong, say, Iranian action against Israel may happen to force Israel to reach agreements with some of ex-foes and give up on some of its interests.
Now, it’s time to turn to ‘arrogant’ issue. even though you dont like this term, it is a brief discription of the above paragraph. “A power that only submits to international norms if it is pressed by some superior force.” and this extended description applies to Israel very well. Why Israel come to leave south lebanon? due to its respect to UNSC resolutions? and so on.
Mohammad,what does Golan have to do with your people in Iran? Israel and Arabs had several wars, we were involved in non of them. They fight and then they make up and build relationship. For some of the countries around Israel it took longer than the other, and we shouldn’t even feel surprised if next year some officals from most conflicting groups back there drink Chai together and breakfast. I am furious about Iran having a role to play in the never-ending conflict which we have Not created at all. After the creation of the state of Israel, Jewish minorities in all Arab countries were threatened, well, one can understand why, but in a country like Iraq some of their clergy were executed, they had to flee, leave all their belongings and go to Israel, wanted or unwanted. It never happened in Iran. Well, at the begining of the Iranian revolution there were some of the Shah backers from the Jewish community who were excecuted, but that was not for being Jewish. This Arab-Israeli conflict is not mine and its not yours. As Iranioans we have to be positive, understand both sides and at least try to be helpful, rather than siding with one party and scaring the other. I do not think Golan deals had any thing to do with Iran. Syria and Israel fought and now they are finding their balance. It did take some good deal of time, well that is war, that’s how it happens. Iranian officals are throwing us in the Middle of many stories which are really not our business, and we will have to pay the price of what is not our fault. If we had wise people guarding and leading our nation, we could have acted like India, like Russia, threating both sides respectfully, making money, building relationships. I consider the Arab league way wiser than our own leaders. They fight the war to the last bullet possible, then they make friends. Economy and well being of people comes first. Now the extremests of the extremes are building productive relationships and we are aleinating ourselves from the rest of the wolr for What? Who is going to benefit? Do you think the Palestinians? I swear to my Lord that they will not benefit from the chaos.
Mahfuz, I can understand how you feel about Iranian fall, Iranians won’t, the regime might face very serious challenges, being replaced with people who wouldn’t trade Me 4 U
we have nothing to disagree about. you said:
let me add: we are paying the price of anothers’ victory. so bad.
Thanks. Thanks for disregarding EVERYTHING I WROTE on the Jewish perspective and proving totally incapable of understanding the set of arguments that inform this perspective. Rather than trying to udnerstand this perspective and speaking to it, you’re obviously not trying to communicate with me, but with the rest of the readers in this forum to prove some ulterior point that has nothing to do with what I wrote.
Next.
The turn. You divert. It’s obvious. It’s belittling. It’s crap. You suck.
I couldn’t have drafted a better example of belittling the Jewish perspective, relativizing it, and then putting it on a shelf so you can completely disregard it. This close-minded crap IS the mental wall that exists with any discussion of Jews in the Middle East. I wrote nothing of the “murders, terrorism and crimes” you speak of, but you fire away at your straw man in a desperate attempt to shift the focus away from Ahmadinejad and back to the ignominious crimes of the Israeli state. According to this logic, no Jew (save maybe the anti-Zionist) should have a seat at the table, for he will be branded a racist for believing in the Jewish right to self-determination.
Jews are treated better where??? My family is from Algeria and Morocco… and we were kicked out of both… along with the entire Jewish community. Oh yea, we were also ethnically cleansed from Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, and Lebanon. There’s none left in the Middle East EXCEPT for in the Jewish state and you call THAT the best treated minority in the Middle East???? THANK GOD FOR ISRAEL is the only logical conclusion you can aspire to adduce from that - and I highly doubt, given your previous comments, that this is a position you advocate. Try unraveling your logic and putting it back together in sequence some time.
As for the other minorities… I AGREE! Maybe a piece of humanity exists in you behind all that Jew-bating crap you just through at me. I completely stand for Berber rights, Copts, Kurds, etc… In fact, Kurds have about 4523453 times stronger case for their own state than Palestinians do, but that’s another story.
How you can get off making a quote like this is beyond me. You just had an argument with yourself and somehow you walk away implying that I have justified Israeli crimes against humanity? We did nto even discuss this! I was talking abut the Israeli perspective on Iran’s nuclear program and betting that those who responded would try to evade the real security threat Iran poses to Jews in Israel.
Your comments reinforce my point well - a complete mental inability to connect with anything I wrote, and an obvious attempt to rewrite everything I wrote.
This last finish is too much…
After you’ve finished having a conversation with yourself about things I never said you call me a violent nationalist. You haev not contributed one iota to assuaging legitimate fears of Jews to Ahmadinejad or Iran’s nuclear program - in fact you have simply insulted the whole concept of Jewish insecurity over this reality - but you think your words will make a difference in my thinking? or in Gila’s thinking (i don’t speak for her, and sorry to associate if i am making trouble for her), or in anyone who sees the legitimate threat where this threat exists? You just proved that you occupy a totally different world.
I read this site from time to time and while its good to see the beginning of a legitimate discussion of minority rights in the region and stimulating a real dialogue there… the distance that exists with Jews remains baffling… that obviously remains a gap too far to be bridged… and that, I do find pretty depressing.
Mohammed,
Thank you for respectfully exchanging ideas. How refreshing (given the crap I just had to confront with Esra’a).
I probably totally disagree with your worldview, as you seem to be lending credence to the legitimacy behind a pro-Ahmadinejad stance, but as far as the nature of the politics go, I think I agree.
Israel does not want to attack Iran. Israel is scared. Israel is basically facing the reality that Iran going nuclear may be imminent, and the US looks politically too weak to do anything. The Iranian threat, to Israel, IS existential, from this perspective (no matter that Esra’a is too close-minded to entertain the prospect that Israelis are human beings with their own threat-perception). This is not to say that Iran or any others don’t have threat perceptions of their own, or that there is not a rational calculus that could be construed to Iran’s weaponizing nuclear enrichment. There is a clear political advantage that fits perfectly in line with the Islamic Republic’s objectives and actions thus far. It is patterned behavior, and somewhat rational. And I personally don’t think Iran would be so foolish as to ever launch a nuke at Israel - only to augment its arming of Hezbollah and Hamas, to torpedo any Israeli-Palestinian peace move, and to insulate the regime from any American attack, while expanding its influence in the region. This is pretty conventional thought on the matter.
But this would also spell the end of Pax-Americana in the Middle East… or at least present a formidable challenge.. one in which the regional alignment would favor Syria-Iran-Hezb-Hamas, and the Sunni constellation might see arms proliferation mushroom ten-fold. In either scenario that unfolds, a nuclear Iran radically augments the chances of nuclear exchange, and builds in a bi-polar, potentially tri-polar, political dynamic in one of the most well-armed and unstable regions in the world.
Hear that, everyone? Israel is scared. Poor Israel. Let’s all kill ourselves to make sure Israel get what it wants. Surely that will make Ben and his ilk happy, and clearly, the world revolves around him. So let’s please make sure that Ben gets what he wants.
You think that for decades people have been paying for your fears with their blood, people are not scared? Everyone is scared of Israel, it’s about time Israel itself shares some of that fear. It’s only this fear that will keep us all safe in the end. I hope we all stay scared, especially Israel, for the sake of this region’s security.
Jews are scared. Israel is scared. And I guess this means that everyone else is aching for a war. Ben makes total sense. Ben rocks. Ben thinks he is the only one who has “legitimate” concerns. Apparently the rest of us can’t be scared too of Israel’s powerful military and crazy leaders. Ben doesn’t think that our fear is legitimate. Because Ben is weird.
When Ben is confronted with different opinions, Ben thinks it’s crap. He doesn’t get that Jews are among the world’s most powerful people, even within this region. Your government proved time and again that they’re willing to bomb others to oblivion for their own interests and so-called “security.” Apparently, that doesn’t make our fear legitimate. Jews have their own secure, sovereign, powerful state. Ben wants them to have more. Ben thinks it’s worth our blood.
Ben, stop using irrational fears to support your racism.
Ben, get over it.
Ben, seriously.
Was I supposed to weep over this? Not sure. Our family (Sunnis) was largely discriminated against and practically forced out of Iran as well. You don’t see us using this fear to justify racism and war against others though, the way you do. Jews are hardly the ones who are suffering most in the region, they are just the most vocal. Doesn’t make their case the worst. You must love this “victim” thing too much if you think you guys are the only ones with a problem. When you didn’t have your own state, sure, you could’ve argued otherwise. But now you do.
Where I am right now, Jews are really happy. Much happier than any other minority I listed. So happy that we just elected a Jewish ambassador. Because we rock Ben. And you don’t. You want war. To make up for your history. And that, I find, is pretty depressing. Ben, seriously.
Jews think they are so original in their own suffering. That’s why Israel supports the ‘denying of the Armenian genocide’ for political reasons. The word genocide is invented by a Jewish lawyer to prosecute the Nazi regime. But I doubt there is something scientific about it. Murder is murder.
We all have our own frievances. It shouldn’t make me look down to you or vice versa. It is good to prevent the wrong and unjust events that happned to each and every one of us here in the Middle East from happening again. It is not a good sign if I am happyn when you grieve and you happy when I grieve. Finally we are all human beings, we should be better than goats right? When one is slauightered the others tremble. They feel bad when a fellow-goat is slaughtered. Shouldn’t we be bettern that goats? Or at least as cool?
Ben. I know your story. As Esra’a said we have had different kinds of experences as such in our volatile state of the region. Ben, if I belittle your grievance as an Iranian, believe me, the same story is going to happen to me, G-d does that. When I hear about other people’s grievances I ask Lord to spare me, to help them and help me as well.
A country like Bahrain is trying to make up for what happned back in the history. This is good. I know there will come the proper time and place that the state of Palestinians will also change. in a more stable region they will build us their state and reconstruct every thing and make a better future for their children. Your people the same, I hope that for my people as well. I refrain from the officials because I am far from even dreaming that one day we will have actual just elections, and the real representatives of the people will rewrite our constition, in a way our rights as human beings, as Iranians, and as differernt memeber of our distinguished ethnical and religious backgrounds would be realised.
Abdullah - same to you chump. “Jews think x, that’s why Israel Y”
You guys deliberate trying to chase all the Jews out of here??? Well… if regional trends have any correlation you’d probably kick all your Jews out and STILL find a way to curse them.
The eternal scapegoat.
Ben, she is not an antisemite and you are not and anti Arab or you wouldnt be writng here and she wouldn’t be maintaining a website were youth from different regions would communicate. Well, it all depends on how we interpret one another’s remarks. When she says the same tine happened to sunnis of Iran and her family were expelled from Iran, because in Iran although Iran is a muslim country but it is ruled by the shiites, and that makes the sunnis the minority and they do get persecuted in Iran, in a way that a family would move out forever and become a memeber of another community, where they are no more harrassed for being who they are. In this case, she says she is equal with you, she has faced same troubles so this is not rediculing, this is trying to say some thing else. I guess Esra’a would like to see a shift from the past, and being more fopcused at the present state of affairs. In Middle East things have definitely changed from some 50 years back, with all the goods and bads, ups and downs, now it is the time that countries and people are tring to have a more relaiztinc way of looking into the matters. They are accepting one another mopre eagerly, at the same time, there are some other groups still being persecuted, the way you were, some 50 years back or she was, some 50 years back. Right now you have a relatively safe place so does she, but Kurdish children will be tried and chraged merely for singing a song not wanted. Many other things. Ben, there was this blogger who didn’
t like my posts very much, I guess I was opposted to her postings as well, we met. In that one and half day we spent together we talked person to person about things were wrote about before. She told me she understood me better now that we have talked. I wouldn’t accused you or her just like that. Look, you say you come from North Africa right? Didn’t you see how Silvan Shalom went back to the country they had said goodbye to, years and years back? Wasn’t that all inspiring? It was, I am not North African, but I was inspired, srange nah?
So because I wholeheartedly disagree with Ben, a single (and rather imbalanced) Jew, I am a hateful racist and an anti-Semite.
This thread is hilarious.
i wouldnt want to even imagine the consequences of attacking iran
1. soaring oil prices. he wouldnt dare attack oil reserves in the middle east - that would make him a nutcase, or would he? this can have even more serious implications in poorer countries in Africa who will probably fight over food
2. Dont even get me started on the shia and sunni fight which will force in saudi arabia, syria, iraq, lebanon and Israel
3. increasing terrorism, wander what would happen in a country of 60 million people
4. NUCLEUR WAR!!!
This thread points to a big problem in the world: good intentioned people are still divided by huge ideological chasms. Why is this so? There are probably a lot of reasons: because we were brought up to distrust one another, because dividing ourselves from one another made some evolutionary sense, because we interpret out histories in ways that conform to our worldview, because it may make some sense to assume the worst about someone in order to protect yourself from the unexpected, because blaming others is easier than blaming ourselves, etc.
For all these, and many other reasons, people the world over remain divided from one another ideologically, and that is probably the greatest impediment to peace. Without all this ideological nonsense, there would be no reason for people to continue fighting one another, especially as the stakes get higher and higher.
So what’s the answer. Talking to one another is not enough, although it is better than nothing. But we will not convince one another by simply talking. Talk is cheap.
The answer is to create facts on the ground which speak louder than words. And if this is done, if we inspire one another with a sense of hope, if we invest in one another to create good paying jobs which protect the environment, if we unite to take on the extremists, if we do all this and more, then we will naturally come to the conclusion that we don’t have to assume the worst about one another. We will be more likely to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and to trust each other for the sake of brokering a peace.
I have no doubt that everyone who was a part of this thread is a good person, who wants the best that life has to offer for himself, his family, and his country. But we are all like caged animals, held captive by our own insecurities, and assuming the worst about our fellow man due in part to the brutality of our histories.
We have to break this pattern. We have to see new possibilities for a better day, even when that prospect remains dim at best. There is a way out of this morass, but it will only be available to those of open minds, and open hearts.
This thread is good because it points to the challenge that lies ahead. It is up to us to meet that challenge with the same passion that kindles our anger.
From The Bible, Old Testament, Genesis:
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
huh
Jina, I think that Magnus is referring to the Bibilcal beginnings of the rift between Arabs and Jews.
Sara, the wife of Abraham, was barren, and she instructed her husband Abraham, to have relations with Hagar, her servant, so that he may have an heir.
Hagar and Abraham had a son named Ishmael.
Then, Sara was informed that she too would have a son, at age 90. She found that so funny, that she started laughing, and named the son, Issac which means to laugh.
Then Sara told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away, because she wanted only Issac to be the rightful heir. Abraham did so, only after God assured him that Ishmael would also come to lead a great people, which would become the Arab people.
Magnus, one way of looking at this story is that there is a big division between Jews and Arabs, dating back to Biblical times.
Another way of looking at it is that we are all one family. And while it is true that in any family there are intigues and injustices, still, we are one family, and as such we owe it to ourselves, and our children, and to the countless generations of children yet to come, to come together, to bridge the ideological divide, to find common ground in the things we all beleive in, and to begin to work together to give everyone on earth a place at the table, a stake in his or her future.
Thank you, Nissim, for your response. It was meant as a bait for people knowledgeable in religions, and I wasn’t surprised that you wrote down a reflexion. The quoted verses are quite interesting and are sometimes referred to by Muslims as a sign of rejection of their ancestor from the house of Abraham.
You present two ways of reading these verses:
1. The division between Jews and Arabs.
2. The unity and common origin of the two peoples.
These two are important to keep in mind when studying the verses further.
Abraham wasn’t happy about casting out Hagar and Ishmael, at least not with casting out Ishmael (you probably can’t expect a bronze age man to be too chicken-hearted about one of his bondwomen). But the elusive mysterious God/Jahve/Allah told him to obey Sarah. Now one may wonder: Why wouldn’t the Almighty give this exhortation directly to Abraham? Wasn’t he “man” enough for it, but instead needed to hide behind the words of Sarah? Since God is the same in all Abrahamitic religions it was in fact Allah that, by making Abraham obey his wife, cast out the original ancestor of prophet Muhammad, so why are Muslims complaining about it? Another question that arises is: What would have happened if Abraham hadn’t hearkened unto neither the words of Sarah nor God? Would there never had come to this division which is plaguing the whole world? Is the present miserable situation the work of God? If so, what does this say about God/Jahve/Allah?
Magnus, as always, some very insightful observations.
Put yourself in God’s shoes. Whatever you do, someone’s going to complain. If you want Ishmael to become the ancestor of the Arab people, and of the Prophet Muhammad, then you have no choice but to give him some space to operate, independent of the Jews. But when you do that, Muslims will blame the Jews for kicking him out. You can’t win.
Does God really want to create enmity between people? My guess is no. Why would He want to destroy the very beings He created, in His image no less?
But God did create a world that is as capable of evil, as it is capable of good. Once again, He had no choice. If He wanted to create good, He would have to also create the possibility of evil; good defining itself by its juxtaposition to evil.
So as your example suggests, God is always in a quandry. He wanted to create the Prophet Muhammad, but in so doing, He also created a division between people.
But here’s the trick; we can see all this. He gave us the common sense to figure it all out. And He does not force us to become evil. He created a balance between all things, including good and evil, love and hate, charity and greed, empathy and indifference, etc. and left it up to us to use our God given common sense to tilt that balance toward the good. If we can do that, then we can bring meaning into this world, then we can validate the efficacy of God’s creation, and prove to Him that His creation is indeed “good.” And if we can’t, He’ll probably just move on to see if anyone else out there can do any better.
Nissim!
If there is a God I too do not think that he wants to create enmity between people, and if he has created us in his image I believe common sense says that he does not want us destroyed. Creating Muhammad was however a terrible mistake he hopefully still regrets; few people can compete with the so-called prophet when it comes to inciting enmity, death and destruction. So saying that God created division between people through Muhammad is to put it very mildly.
However, Muhammad found inspiration in the warlord type of God from e.g. Exodus:
12:28 And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
It is quite bizarre that the Lord wasn’t satisfied by killing all the firstborn Egyptians, he just had to continue with the firstborn cattle also.
Muhammad and his Allah did not want to be any less frightening:
Koran 7:4 How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.
What does common sense have to say about this Lord/Allah?
Magnus, there is no question that Holy Scripture contains a lot of violence. But is it really fair to pin this violence on God?
I don’t think you have to look so far back to find evidence of the violent nature of man. Look at how much killing has been perpetrated in the last 200 years. I don’t have statistical evidence to back me up, but I would guess that more people were killed by the hand of man, in the last 200 years, than in the previous two million years of human existence. From what I know, pre-historic man was not particularly violent. He was a hunter/gatherer, and had no real reason for killing his fellow man. On the contrary, he found it to be more sensible to help one another out, so that we could all survive yet another day.
When we speak about God, it is important to know, or at least to guess, what we’re really speaking about. If we think of God as one of us, and if we pin all this violence on Him, then no wonder some of us walk away with an image of God as heartless and mean-spirited. The passages you quote could be used as evidence for such a conclusion.
But I, for one, don’t see God as one of us. I think of God, based on what I know of the universe, as the sum total of all the creative energy in the universe. God is creative energy. He creates a universe in which all things are possible, because He wanted to give expression to all things, so that a sense of meaning could emerge from His creation. To do this, He had no choice but to balance the good with the bad.
Therefore, while He does not create a Holocaust; He does create a world that is capable of bringing a Holocaust about. While He does not create Global Warming; He does create a world in which Global Warming is possible. While He does not mandage poverty, His world allows for the possibility of poverty. He creates the possibility of all things, because only from this mix could meaning emerge. And above all, He wished for the possibility of meaning, because only that could validate the efficacy of His creation. It’s not like He has his mother telling Him how good He is. He had no choice but to allow His creation to speak for itself and to thereby point to the possibility of meaning.
And so, when you quote scripture, I don’t see the hand of God. I see the hand of man writing down what he thinks, and signing God’s name to it. God did not write scripture. God wrote the universe, and gave us the Common Sense to decipher its meaning.
God created the universe. As part of His creation, He created us, in His image no less. So like him, we are creators as well. What do we create? Among other things, we create God in our image, by ascribing to Him all our faults and desires. Instead of trying to create God, how about creating a better world for ourselves and our children?
Thanks, Nissim, for your view on God. The God you are describing has however not so much in common with the God of the Bible and the Koran, so I have to conclude that your God is not the one I have written about.
ND: “I don’t think you have to look so far back to find evidence of the violent nature of man. Look at how much killing has been perpetrated in the last 200 years.”
We are indeed capable of being very violent, but don’t you think this inclination gets worse when being adherent to a violent God?
ND: “From what I know, pre-historic man was not particularly violent.”
I’m afraid we are still rather much the same.
ND: “God is creative energy.”
This is an attractive concept of God, but it is hard to see how this description could fit Jahve/Allah who has so many more sides to him which are destructive and awfully repulsive.
ND: “And so, when you quote scripture, I don’t see the hand of God. I see the hand of man writing down what he thinks, and signing God’s name to it. God did not write scripture. God wrote the universe, and gave us the Common Sense to decipher its meaning.”
Very beautifully put. A new religion?