Comic: Patience Stretched
In 1925, Egypt became the first Muslim-majority country to recognize the Baha’i faith as an independent religion. However, almost 80 years later, Baha’is in Egypt continue to face heinous discrimination, due to their failure to obtain identity cards. Identity cards are the key towards gaining access to education, health care, and economic opportunities. Without them, Baha’is cannot exercise their full citizenship rights. (See our video for details.)
Although a landmark ruling in January decreed that Baha’is can obtain identification papers, the government has yet to implement the ruling, and recently, a lawyer for Egypt’s Islamic Research Council filed a challenge intended to stall the process.
…and in the meantime, thousands of Baha’is are left waiting.
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it is funny
i wrote about that in my blog please see it here.
Koran 68:35 Shall We then treat those who have surrendered as We treat the guilty?
Magnus,
You have a tendency to steer conversations towards “exposing the devious, murderous cult of Islam” and judging by the actual Arabic verse, I’m assuming your point is that the discrimination is rooted in the Qur’an.
Our intention behind this thread wasn’t to engage in a discussion on “dhimmitude” (I’m almost certain that word would have dropped in the discussion eventually), but the plight of Baha’is in Egypt.
However, if you wish to share your views on the topic, please choose an appropriate thread, or feel free to expound your views in our forums
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Kawthar!
I’m glad that you perceive my tendency to focus on Islam, but are you saying the plight of the Baha’is in Egypt is not in any way related to this religion? And are you trying to move relevant comments to another thread? If so, this is very disquieting.
the “human rights” is used as a tool by some fifth columnists in the Arab worlds to destroy Islam from within.
if we allow every new cult be recognized soon we will see some funny cults emerging, and that’s what the fifth columnists exactly want.
but anyway, what about calling for a public referendum in Egypt to determine if the Bahai’i cult should be recognized or not? this is a democratic decent solution to the problem.
sure no fifth columnist would accept that because the referendum result is already known in advance.
Abu Salih is totally right in his observation that human rights will destroy Islam from within; the two are not compatible at all. His referendum solution would be most democratic. It would also be an interesting measure of how religiously tolerant a dominantly Muslim country like Egypt is.
Seems like the comic is pissing off the right audience.
Keep them coming folks.
Abu Salih,
How exactly does the Baha’i faith qualify as a cult? From what I recall of the cult checklist, it doesn’t exactly qualify.
But anyway, bring on the controversy.
The Baha’i religion is not a “cult.”
Its interesting Abu Salih says that that would be a democratic way of determining whether to acknowledge or not. May I suggest Abu Salih that you read about a certain political party that emerged and passed laws based on popular approval and a democratic process. They had a strong national history and a very ingrained sense of self-sufficiency and cultural nationalism. I am referring to the Nazi party in 1940s Germany. Majority vote, dear sir, while a component of democracy is not democracy. The preservations that enable peaceful co-existence and mutual respect, rights for all, lay in the principles of protection of the minority, whatever their beliefs.
I would encourage you to bring this subject of relying on the majority to determine whether something should be recognized or not, to the United States. If we actually did that, Islam along with Judaism, and a whole bunch of other religions accept Christianity would be rejected based on the naive “majority”.
Human rights are for all. Not just the majority.
Magnus,
I believe Kawthar asked you to kindly stick to the topic (which is about religious minorities in Egypt as opposed to an open thread on random Islamophobic remarks) and if not, then you may resort to the forums instead. Several of your comments here have already diverted from the original topic, and we try our best to clean up our threads so that people are on target, and not just rambling about random and meaningless conspiracies.
Be respectful of our comment policy, or use the forums instead. Either way we aren’t asking you not to discuss your opinion on Islam, but we’re saying that every comment has a time and place and you can’t ramble about anything just because you feel like it.
Thank you.
Omid, while I strongly agree with your overall point that a democratic referendum is not the end all be all solution to any problem, I am deeply troubled by your comparison of a hypothetical referendum in Egypt to one in the USA. But, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying…
Do you really believe that if a referendum vote came in the USA about what religions should be allowed/not allowed, Judiasm and Islam would be “outlawed?” While it is true that most Americans are Christian, to follow your statement, that would also assume that ALL American Christians would vote to outlaw all other religions. That’s a pretty bold statement…it basically means that all American Christians (or at least enough of the majority who would vote in such a referendum) are bigoted, don’t believe in freedom of religion, and are anti-any religion except Christianity.
Given that many Americans have at least a basic constitutional education from grade school or high school civics, and would know that religious freedoms is one of the cornerstones of our highly respected constitution, it is almost unfathomable that would be overturned in a simple referendum vote. And while there are certainly fanatic Christians that might support such a referendum, they by no means constitute the majority.
That is not to say, of course, that religious discrimination doesn’t exist in USA – of course it does. There’s discrimination against African Americans in the USA too – that doesn’t mean that a referendum would automatically overturn their citizenship rights simply because a majority of Americans are white.
Sahih Al Bukhair, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 803:
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:
The people used to ask Allah’s Apostle about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?” He said, “Yes.” I asked, “Will there be good after that evil?” He said, “Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil).” I asked, “What will its Dakhan be?” He said, “There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them.” I said, “Will there by any evil after that good?” He said, “Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them).” I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Describe those people to us.” He said, “They will belong to us and speak our language” I asked, “What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?” He said, “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief.” I asked, “If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?” He said, “Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state.”
“بل هم بين ظهرانييكم و من ابناء جلدتكم و يتكلمون بالسنتكم”
if those are not the Arab secularists then i don’t know who are they.
religion is not a game, and we are not required to recognize a cult as a religion. even the idols worshipers call their cult a religion. we don’t rely on the UN to tell what religions to recognize,we have the Quran and the tradition of the prophet (Salla Allahu Aalihy Wassalam) to help us determine that.
the Egyptian government is wise to bar the recognition of the Baha’i cult, they know that the alternative will be a disastrous social unrest by the Islamic population which will hate to see their religions degraded.
Hi Jessica,
Thank you for the comment. My point was that if everything was left to a majority vote, some very trouble and ultimately detrimental positions would be adopted that would ultimately deprive minorities and thier interests the basic rights which we are all promised under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by all countries, which interestingly only a few actually live up to, the US included.
The US has done a great job of educating and informing its citizens of the merits of freedom and the respect we should afford all peoples in their pursuit of “life liberty, and happiness”. What I was trying to point out, and maybe it was a bad example, was that if the we simply relied on a majority vote when it comes to civil matters, rights and privileges, some of them would be taken away due to common sentiments held by all people.
Now, the issue I think you are pointing out is if the US population was indeed given a choice, would they opt away from fundamental rights, or because of education and experience would they on their own volition vote to keep the rights of all, even if they don’t agree with them? Its an interesting question, and I, like you, would like to believe that they would uphold the rights of all. However, given the historic trend of a few zealoted people in the past manipulating and swaying the masses, I think that unless there are essential protections in place to protect the rights of minorities, like there are in the US, we would eventually see the slow erosion of basic human rights. Perhaps thats a pessimistic view, but it is simply based on history.
Abu Salih,
Thank you for quoting the Hadith.
The Egyptian Baha’i community is not a cult and it represents a small population of a global religion. You reference where “They will belong to us and speak our language”. In this case, yes Arabic. However, in Muhammad’s time, they were in Arabia and it was an enitrely different culture and I would argue even a different style of Arabic. Baha’is are not here to destroy Islam. On the contrary, our Faith tells us to teach the truth of Islam and we regard Muhammad as a true messenger from God.
Baha’is are not political and have no intention of subverting Islam. All we want is peace. Nothing can harm Islam, if you think this is the case, then may I humbly suggest you re-examine the definition of faith. To follow this reasoning, nothing can harm the Baha’i Faith as its theological and spiritual foundation is sound and pure. The only damage and harm that can be done, is among the misguided people and their interpretations of their own belief and how they act on that…
Ultimately this damage is only self-inflicting as God is above any efforts of His creatures to influence His Will. Agreed?
Omid: “On the contrary, our Faith tells us to teach the truth of Islam [...]”
Then you would have a totally different view on for example prophet Muhammad.
Omid: “[...] and we regard Muhammad as a true messenger from God.”
So, let’s read about this “true messenger” in Sahih Muslim,
Book 4, Number 1058:
Jabir b. ‘Abdullah al-Ansari reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: I have been conferred upon five (things) which were not granted to anyone before me (and these are): Every apostle was sent particularly to his own people, whereas I have been sent to all the red and the black the spoils of war have been made lawful for me, and these were never made lawful to anyone before me, and the earth has been made sacred and pure and mosque for me, so whenever the time of prayer comes for any one of you he should pray whenever he is, and I have been supported by awe (by which the enemy is overwhelmed) from the distance (which one takes) one month to cover and I have been granted intercession.
and in Sahih Bukhari,
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 370:
Narrated Abu Qatada:
We set out in the company of Allah’s Apostle on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword. He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed ‘Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?” He replied, “This is the Will of Allah.” After the people returned, the Prophet sat and said, “Anyone who has killed an enemy and has a proof of that, will posses his spoils.” I got up and said, “Who will be a witness for me?” and then sat down. The Prophet again said, “Anyone who has killed an enemy and has proof of that, will possess his spoils.” I (again) got up and said, “Who will be a witness for me?” and sat down. Then the Prophet said the same for the third time. I again got up, and Allah’s Apostle said, “O Abu Qatada! What is your story?” Then I narrated the whole story to him. A man (got up and) said, “O Allah’s Apostle! He is speaking the truth, and the spoils of the killed man are with me. So please compensate him on my behalf.” On that Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, “No, by Allah, he (i.e. Allah’s Apostle ) will not agree to give you the spoils gained by one of Allah’s Lions who fights on the behalf of Allah and His Apostle.” The Prophet said, “Abu Bakr has spoken the truth.” So, Allah’s Apostle gave the spoils to me. I sold that armor (i.e. the spoils) and with its price I bought a garden at Bani Salima, and this was my first property which I gained after my conversion to Islam.
Magnus, I am not sure why you are trying so hard in enforcing your opinions on others. In the process of doing this you are really diverting from the actual topic of discussion.
If someone respects another faith or a deeply revered Prophet of that faith, what’s it to you?
Thanks for the claification, Omid. Agreed that it is not a good idea to leave EVERYTHING to a public majority vote, hence the type of representative republic form of democracy that we have the in US.
As for your pessimistic historical view, I guess I am more optimistic that the US would chose to maintain the rights and principles this country was founded under, even if there was some fringe influence. However, there’s also one big distinction that needs to be addressed in your hypothetical situation: Overturning existing laws or protections that have been in place for hundreds of years in a country that has generally had good prosperity, I think, is more difficult than creating new laws that enact those protections. In the US, you would be asking people to vote to overturn something that they have already been protected under; where in Egypt you would be asking people to enact something that is not yet “proven” by the test of time (and something that overturns the superiority complex in the status quo). The question becomes which form of change is more difficult….?
Hi Jessica,
My statement about how the majority would override the minority is based on the purely hypothetical situation in which the majority has no laws governing its decisions and no “checks and balances” to ensure fairness and freedom. As you stated, the US has these provisions and the people are aware and reverent toward them. Frankly, I have more optimism in your scenario then I do with what is going on in reality right now in some parts of the Middle East. Does that make sense?
Magnus…My challenge to you is this: We all know how easy it is to find the apparent discrepancies and negatives aspects of a belief system, but are we supposed to focus on these alone? Why don’t you, in the name of a fair approach, point out the good things in a religion which has advanced world civilization and contributed to its spiritual development in ways which are as clear as day. Your trend in the way you focus on negativeness is ironically the same thing Jihadists are doing. If everyone were to reflect and realize that the stories and contextual passages every religious tradition has are simply details and do not constitute the essence of the true religion, we would all realize that we are all one and that there is only one God…period. Everything else is excuses for division and confusion.
Dear Abu Salih
You wrote “the Egyptian government is wise to bar the recognition of the Baha’i cult, they know that the alternative will be a disastrous social unrest by the Islamic population which will hate to see their religions degraded.”
With respect, how would recognition of the bahai faith lead to disastrous social unrest? In many countries the bahai faith has been recognized and I don’t see any disastrous unrest as a result. Where would that unrest come from?
Also, how would recognition of the bahai faith ‘degrade’ religions? What is so wrong with the bahai faith? Please explain beyond just labeling it a ‘cult’.
No, religion is not a game. Remember that Muhammad, peace be upon him, has also been, and still is, labeled by some as an inventor of a new cult, an imitator, a disturber of social order and a ‘degrader’ of religion. If you don’t recognize the bahai revelation as a divine revelation than it is still more honourable not to follow the footsteps of those who do not accept the Qur’an as a divine revelation. If you want to convince an outsider that Islam is a religion and the bahai faith a cult you’ll have explain how to recognize the difference.
Great carton!
I posted a Portuguese translation here.
sO a law abiding group of people are being denied basic features of society (ids) which would enable them to get necessary things such as health care, which is available to others automatically. And some think there is a good reason for this? Because one group’s story(religion) differs from another group’s story and rules ?
Hi Homer,
that is correct.
Esraa and Omid!
It is not about enforcing opinions on others; it’s about getting to know the truth. Now that you know Muhammad was a warlord and looter, doesn’t this disqualify him as a divine messenger? If it doesn’t, what does that say about Muslims’ moral and ethical standards?
Marco, that is wonderful! Thank you!
Magnus, assuming that only your opinion is the truth is only proof of your utter ignorance. Don’t spam. You expressed your opinion, and no on agreed with it. Let it go. Now it’s time to get back on topic; random Islamophobic remarks are entirely irrelevant. Any further trolling and copy/paste junk from Islamophobic sites will be moderated. You got your chance to stay relevant and you didn’t respect that, now go find a spot in the forums to rant.
Hi Kawthat. Thank you for the information. I wanted to know more about what you mean by Bahais cannot have an ID card. I mean do you mean that in their ID card it will not be mentioned that they ara Bahais? suppose the religion that they were born into will be mentioned instead? Suppose in Iran perhaps they will all be classified as muslims, and I have heard that their marriages for long time was not registered. I don’t know about now, perhaps Omid knows more, but there is an ID, the ID would not show what is their religion.
Another question. What will happen if a muslim in Egypt decides he or she wants to be a Bahai, is there a rule against that? what about a non-muslim becoming a Bahai? It will be a good thing if we know about all countries in the Middle East and the way each of them appraoch the bahai faith. In the western or European countries + India they are free for their acitivities, in some countries like Iran they are denied the most, in Israel there is the holy grave of their founder, in Haifa, and Bahais from around the world visit the holy site, but I don’t think they can live in Israel as citizens. It would be good to know about Arab countries and Turkey, Afganistan, Pakistan I mean the region as a whole.
Hi Elinor,
Those are some good questions and I wish I knew the answer, but from what I do know, if the country has a secular constitution Baha’is at least have the legal rights to do what they like. When it comes to conversions, legally there is no problem, but those that choose to convert if they come from Muslim families are often outcast, or deemed an apostate by their religious authorities. Turkey and Pakistan both have sizable Baha’i populations and both do ok as far as rights are concerned. Pervez Musharaff, despite his recent troubles, went out of the way to wish the Baha’is a Happy Naw Ruz, or new year, which is also the new year for lots of other people…Some of the gulf countries have been refuges and jumping off points for Baha’is after the escape Iran. The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, all have little communities that try to not step on anyones toes. Jordan’s former King Husayn had a soft spot for the Baha’is and their teachings of peace and from what I hear would go to Haifa and visit the gardens on occasion. They also have a few hundred Baha’is in Jordan…Syria, I do not know. Saudi…Highly unlikely. Yemen, Oman they do have Baha’is but I do not know too much about it because it seems most of them were Persian immigrants and settled nicely. Iraq has had a long history with the Faith and Baha’u'llah lived their for 10 years. However, this century for Iraq has been nothing but coups, wars, conflicts and occupations…not much reason for anyone to stay in Iraq, let along those who are in the religious minority. Lebanon has a few…and as you mentioned, Israel. Baha’is do not hold Israeli citizenship nor do they have permanent resident visas. They have work visas and live mostly in Haifa for stints of about 1 year to 5 years…Some may stay longer if their expertise is needed. Interestingly the biggest Baha’i community is in India. Brazil has a large one, Africa is full of Baha’is and the fastest growing community is actually in Mongolia.
Omid
It is very interesting that a person like Pervez Mosharraf recognizes the Bahais, at least one could respect him for this. I really didn’t know about all these little communities in Arab countries of Gulf region. I thought in Arab countries they might be as discriminated as Iran, but I see how Arab countries have made home for the migrating population. I can see the region is opening up to the faith and I can see that gradually Iran will have no way but to recognize this peaceful religion and the Iranians who are Bahais. It is not a surpirse that India has the largest community, because India has a great capacity of accepting people as they are with the faith they like. You can see people who belong to conflicting countries peacefully mediate in the remore temples of India side by side, in fraternal communities.:)
Thank you for this wonderful information, now I have the map in my mind
Elinor,
The Egyptian state only recognizes three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Egyptian ID cards require that a person lists her/his religious affiliation, and in the past Baha’is would circumvent that by leaving the space blank, or writing a dash “-”.
However, with Egypt’s computerization of the ID system, Egyptian Baha’is no longer have that option. The only available option is to lie about their religion.
Although in April 2006 an Egyptian court ruled that a Baha’i couple have the right to state their religion in their IDs, the ruling was met with much criticism – particularly by Al Azhar – and was eventually overturned.
Thak you Kawthat for the information, it is really good that we know how the state of affairs are in countries around Middle East. What I know about Iran is that in the ID card they are not mentioned for sure, but the government knows who is a Bahai and how is not, then when they want to get their kids in universities or seek a job or things as such, they are rejected. Itys all because there are no laws supporting them as civilians. If the laws are there, even if the atmosphere is agains them the laws would protect their rights. There are much lies about the religion that unfortunately in Iran people tend to believe, even you go to secular people who are not much affiliated with any religio0n and belief, and you see that they are repeating what the extremists are saying about Bahais. As to myself, I had to talk to the Bahai community online and in person to find the truth, because there are many misleading books that spreads the lies about them and people are curious they read the books, and it is not surprising that no other books are published that contradict. You know, the tunnel vision is what is needed to rule simple people like myself
I hope that raising awareness would help to east the atmpsphere of discrimination.
Elinor,
For more details and updates on the ID issue facing the Baha’is of Egypt, please refer to http://www.bahai-egypt.org
Bilo, thank you my dear, it was a good website, well, there the link to Iran Update wasfiltered, just to let you know. I am happy the Bahais in ajil in Iran had the opportunity to meet their families…
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I used to hear that Islam is an evil cult in the guise of a peaceful religion and its Allah is actually a bloodthirsty god that has a pungent for killing, wars and sex and that the whole Qur’an and hadiths are filled with these verses. I tried not to believe it as a person who believes in freedom of religious practices.
But from what Abu Salih has said and quoted, then what I have heard is TRUE that Islam is an evil cult, and will always manufactured terrorsits bent on killing others if they do not share the same beliefs. It means to me that if I, a non-Musilm, were to kindly invite a Muslim into my house for friendship but because I don’t share his belief, he can kill me, rape my wife and daughters and taken over my house as the ‘spoils’ of that killing BECAUSE IT IS APPROVED BY THE QUR’AN AND HADITHS.
What a dangerous cult!
May the true all-loving God save us from this evil.
Limang,
The Quran, like the Bible, has stories and accounts of the time. Its not to be taken literally. I guess since Abraham was wanting to test his faith, he almost sacrificed his son. Should I go and do that? My wife would kill me. God gave us brains to use, despite the media depiction of people the World over not using it, a great majority do. Let’s try and do the same.
Thnx Omid for trying to convince me that the Qur’anic stories are symbolic. I am not the one with a murderous problem but fanatics and bigots like Abu Salih is, who has no respect for others’ beliefs and is hell-bent to kill kafirs and those who do not share his evil Muslim viewpoints. I don’t hink he takes the Qur’anic stories symbolically. To him, people like me are kafirs who deserves to die and I think he has no qualms in taking over my house, rape my wife and daughters for his lusty and evil pleasures and then claimed that the Qur’an approved of such evil deeds. I also heard that for such evil deed, Muslims would be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven – it seems that there’s nothing noble the Qur’an teaches other than sex, wars and pillaging! How can I reconcile with such heinous and loathesome beliefs. Now I know the truth about Islam and Muslims, it will be hard for me to accept Muslims as my friends, knowing that one day, they will kill me in the name of tbeir cultist religion and enjoy the spoils. It is frightening to think of this and that people like Abu Salih exists.
Limang,
You seem to be displaying the same kind of hatred as the people we are trying to change. As a Baha’i, you would think I and other Baha’is would feel the most rage at the way we are treated. However, we cannot judge the religion based off of the believers. Believers are weak, incompetent and just plain dumb sometimes. I assure though, Islam is not about what you say. It is up to us as rational and thoughtful beings to wiegh the content of each message and look for the good in all things, and simply ignore the rest, or at least take it with a grain of salt.
I don’t think it is conducive to dialog and change if we are always pointing the finger. We have to be respectful, even though we disagree. if you think you are better than Abu Salih, prove it with knowledge, wisdom, kindness and mercy.
I agree. It’s kind of ironic Limang that you complain about someone else being so hateful and yet you display the exact same intolerance and hatred. Try Omid’s suggestion and then maybe people might take you more seriously:
Being hateful just means that you’re just as violent and bad as the people whom you claim are part of some “death cult.” Get real with your arguments. Right now all I see is the non-Muslim version of Abu Salih.
Ok, let’s have a “rational” dialogue as you guys put it, because to me, at the moment, it is you Baha’is who are not rational.
First, I am not a Baha’i nor associated with any religion but just a free thinker who respect all kinds of beliefs as long as they do not incite war, hurt or discriminate against others and preach fire and brimstone at their pulpits. But I will warn my friends if I notice a cult that is dangerous or evil just as I will warn others of murderers, rapists, peadophiles, etc.
Second, based on what I see, I do not see Islam being a good and peaceful cult but the contrary. Tell me the good in Islam, and if so, how come it produces terrorists and people like Abu Salih? If I remember right, Christ said: “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”
Thirdly, I do not hate Muslims and Islam, but FEAR AND LOATHE THEM and based on their evil deeds around the world and their way of logic that as long as one does not accept their interpretations, you are an enemy of Islam. Never once did I advocate violence against them, but just as there are evil people like murderers, rapists, thiefs, etc., I will warn others of such evil people but let the police handle them – is this wrong? By issuing such good warnings, does this make me a murderer, rapist, thief, to quote you: “kind of ironic Limang that you complain about someone else being so hateful and yet you display the exact same intolerance and hatred.” If there is a poisonous cobra in your house, do you allow it to go round killing your children and guests or would you warn others about it? If you do warn your guests, does it make you a cobra? Talk sense, man!
Fourthly, I am really confused with you Baha’is – why are you guys so defenseless and peace-loving to the point of allowing evil to grow? Let me remind of what Winston Churchill says: when Nazi Germany was getting strong and becoming a serious threat to other peaceful nations, many of them were making peace treaty with Germany, so he said: “What they are doing is like appeasing a crocodile who gets bigger by the day and will eventually gobble them up.” Which was what exactly happens – Germany went on to start the WWII! He also says: “For evil to proliferate is for a few good men to do nothing.” Doesn’t your religion allow you to defend yourself? You want peace, but peace comes with a price. I would defend you, for crying out loud, even though I am not a Baha’i. As we say in America, I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to disagree.
Fifthly, you brand me a non-Muslim version of Abu Salih. Now is this how you appreciate your sympathiser and supporter, who is trying to get his government to help the Baha’is? Thanks a lot! Who is the verson of Abu Salih, who is offensive, rude and intolerable here – you or me?
Sixth: Why don’t your fellow Baha’is in Iran and Egypt flee the country that is out to exterminate you? There are so many peaceful countries that will welcome you guys where you can practise your religion in peace. Why are you not helping your co-religionists to flee the country? You talk of helping the world but you can’t even help your own kind – doesn’t make sense. Maybe, do what the Jews did – get the UN to give you a piece of land to call it your own where the Baha’is can all live in peace. After, you are so few and can easily fit into a big piece of land.
Lastly, convince me, if you have SOLUTIONS TO THE KILLINGS OF BAHA’IS and I may well become a Baha’i too ! As it is, you Baha’is depend on the non-Baha’is who are not Muslims to help you. We live in a real world, that is why we have police, laws, punishments, etc. to protect the innocent, peaceful, good, etc. like you guys. Let me quote what the tagline the Pentagon has: “The world is a grim place, that is why we exist.” But being rude and insulting is not helping, really!
Shall look forward to your response.
Limang, maybe you should open your own forum and invite Magnus, I think you guys would get along just great.
Dear Limang,
You do raise some interesting points and I will answer them as best I can. First of all, we encourage and applaud you for coming to this forum to discuss the issues at hand that affect many people. I do feel that if we are to have such a dialog we must be respectful and dignified so if you perceive that I have been unfair or unreasonable, I apologize.
So,
This is a very popular approach and frankly nothing is wrong with this. In fact you are doing a great service if this is actually what you are up to. People need people like you to help prevent crime and keep on the look out for terrorists. However, when we make blanket statements and say that the entire religion is such, its just not accurate. Here I am, a Baha’i, standing up for what I know is the truth about Islam. We have over a billion Muslims in the World, and like any other society, Muslims who live there and in these parts, have issues and problems. Just like America and its problem with “Christian” white supremacists who find justification in the Bible, or fanatical abortion opponents who grease doctors that perform them. What about the dark chapters of Catholic history where they burned people alive and made people confess to crimes they never committed? My point is, yes, keep on guard for fanatics and watch out for villains, but to make the blanket statement about the whole religion is unfair, when you know and I know that there are peaceful Muslims and peaceful people just trying to live their lives and co-exist. Fanaticism is the scourge of the 21st century and we must fight it with everything at our disposal. This discussion is a good way.
Islam in general has many different styles and sects, two main branches and various sub-divisions. With various Imams and clerics who espouse and focus on different teachings, we find numerous interpretations of the Quran and how it should be read. Indeed some un-educated people with narrow minds and silly tribal traditions have distorted the underlying peaceful message that Islam brings. I know a girl, American, blond and blue eyed, who went from a Christian, to a Muslim, to a Baha’i simply because she saw the truths and spiritual unity of the themes that they all espoused as essentially the same. To blast the belief system as violent or bigoted is un-fair because so many people the World over rely on it for sustenance. Indeed there are bad apples, and as you say, you should judge them by their fruits. The best way to deal with people, is to only deal with people and their behavior and actions. Forget what they tell you about their ideals, or their beliefs because unfortunately the believers themselves are often not the best examples. So if we are to at all attempt peace and understanding, which I am sure Christ would, we are to turn the other cheek when faced with idiocy and show them understanding and show them the better path. Let’s face it, some people are miss-guided and need a little help. Instead of calling the stupid boy in class stupid all the time, the teacher has to spend a little extra time and work with him, encourage him, support him and be a good example. If not, it will only get worse.
I think I addressed a lot of what you said here in the previous answer but I will try to reiterate. To loathe means to hate. Since you quote Jesus, I would hope that you understand that it order to do so, you must give credence to some of his other teachings. In any case, dangerous people do exist. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, American, Saudi, Iranian…whatever…people are people and fanatics are found in all segments of society. I was watching on the news last night about a local religious family who was arrested for child abuse because their kids did not pray enough so they beat them. These people were “Christians”. But, ironically the man had a beard like Osama! This only shows that people and thier non-sense often get the most attention when they mess up, moreover they make it worse by associating their religion with there actions. I do believe in counter-terrorism and right now, Islamic fanatics are a threat to world stability…ok. Go after them, find them in the caves and burn their beards. But, in order to really win the battle, in order to erase their satanic fancies, we must encourage discussion, dialog, education, talking, exchanges. We are one planet and one people, we can find so many similarities and I assure Muslims have families too they want to protect from cobras. My point is to always struggle for a higher standard than your opponent like Ghandi or Martin Luther King. They struggled for so long and in the end both gave their lives for peace and equality. We may have to do the same, but we will win, as they did–without the bombs and guns.
All I am saying is that we should not stoop to the same level. If you are a sympathizer and supporter of human rights, not just Baha’i rights, I applaud you and encourage you to continue. There is much work to be done, but we cannot fight fire with fire. Only the wise effects of intelligence, thoughtful reflection, sincere effort and honest attempts and conciliation. We must all question out motives when we hurl blame. Do we really wan’t peace, or do we want to simply piss off our enemies? Anybody who comes to this site and is intolerant of the intolerant I will always remind them that wont work. We have to show them their own problems in their own terms–maybe then we make a difference in their minds. Our goal is to “think ahead” at MEY.
This is rather miss-informed and I will take the opportunity to address it. In general, Baha’is have been in suffering in Iran and the middle east since the inception of the Faith…its nothing new. Baha’is do get help from other Baha’is when things get terrible for them and indeed thousands have left Iran for the west and other countries. We help our co-religionists the best and most practical way possible. But, if 400,000 people just suddenly decided to leave, don’t you think that would cause some kind of mass-exodus issues? I guarantee you that no country would allow it. Moreover, the situation in Iran although difficult, is not dyer. People are not yet being slaughtered in the streets, nor are they being burned alive like they were during the revolution or before. Our religious institutions have the insight to know that if we stick with it, through thick and thin, things will get better. However, when individuals are indeed target specifically and their is imminent danger, yes, we do help them get out. As far as the UN giving us land, I don’t think we would take it. The Baha’i goal is unity, peace, and spiritual re-awakening through the message of Baha’u'llah as the newest messenger of God. We realize that not all people will believe this and its ok, we do not force it on anyone. Our belief asks us to unconditionally fight for peace, education, equality and justice. We do not seek to isolate ourselves nor do we run and hide from the face adversity. How will the the World know about our message if we do not test it with conflict brought on by those who disagree with it? We continuously have the moral high ground when we follow these principles and our cause and struggle will always be followed by sympathizers and like-minded groups and individuals. It is the time tested and proven way to struggle in the face of ugly fanaticism and brutality.
Like I said before, I do not mean to be rude or insulting, but I will always ask that we do not answer bigotry with more anger or intolerance. Abu Salih is free to come here and give his opinion, he is not harming anyone and frankly he is only showing how ignorant he is when he does so. We must have faith in the common peoples’ ability to be able to tell truth from non-sense. I understand and sympathize with your feelings and fears about how fanatics are making the World a more dangerous place, but we must be the light and alternative to such idiocy. Only by working together, when we disavow violence, engage in constructive dialog, take part in peace, speak out against injustice and stay true to virtue will we succeed. I have no doubt that suffering will continue and killings will continue, Baha’i or not. It is heart wrenching and very sad, and of course our easiest re-action is to hate those who oppress us. However, we must not let their sacrifice and suffering to be the cause of more of the same. We must always press on and in doing so, show the World we are right.
Limang,
I believe Omid has responded to you both eloquently and comprehensively, but I couldn’t help but respond to your willingness to judge an entire faith and over one billion people through the words of just one individual. I’m sure you duly noted that Abu Salih’s views were criticized, and mind you, there are many Muslims out there who would similarly voice their condemnation.
As Omid rightly pointed out, Islam is not a monolithic faith, but there are a myriad of opinions espoused within it. It is true and extremely unfortunate that there are many intolerant and violent voices within the community, but just as equally, there are many who believe in a peaceful, tolerant and loving Islam.
If you wish to engage in dialogue with the “moderate Muslims” (and that’s a phrase I’ve grown to dislike!), then blanket vilification and flagrant miscategorization won’t get you far, especially if you lack the necessary knowledge.
I’ve seen so-called “religious experts” produce non-existent Qur’anic verses and hadiths that they concoct in order to spread their hateful message. I’ve also met with bloggers intent on “informing the world about the evil Muzzies”, when all they know of the Qur’an are the few odd verses they picked from Jihad Watch and Little Green Footballs.
Mind you, I’m not accusing you of being hateful, but just as you are concerned and fearful of the fanatics, we are too. We are all tired of having our faith and identities hijacked, we are all tired of always having to state the obvious: that we aren’t bloodthirsty barbarians with a throbbing thirst for rape and massacres.
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hi elinor how are you are you in iran?